Will the CP3/Nash/Lebron/Harden/Westbrok brand of ball-dominance ever win organicaly?

[3ball]

Or will the relegation of teammates to spot-up shooters forever suppress teammate development, thus requiring ready-made stars/teams acquired via team-hopping??

Essentially, will these guys always have to team-hop for ready-made teams because their style can't develop a team or elite brand of ball?... :facepalm

It's a stark contrast from the organic championships that Curry, MJ, Kawhi and Kobe won - aka, guys that are skilled enough to achieve elite production without dominating the ball/reducing teammates to spot-up role... and while playing off of/enhancing teammates
.

[Turbo Slayer]

The difference is Lebron won 3 rings while CP3/Nash/Harden/Westbrook hasn't won a single ring.

So Lebron is a winner compared to the rest.

3ball, I love you man BUT PLEASEEE stop creating old, boring threads. You literally created the same, exact thread. :rockon:

[3ball]

The difference is Lebron won 3 rings



You apparently didn't read the thread title.. Lebron won by teaming up with stars... :hammerhead:... So not organically

We already know that Nash/Lebron turns teammates into spot-up shooters, which doesn't develop teammates and requires ready-made stars/teams via team-hopping

So the thread title asks:



Or will the relegation of teammates to spot-up shooters forever suppress teammate development, thus requiring ready-made stars/teams acquired via team-hopping??

Essentially, will these guys always have to team-hop for ready-made teams because their style can't develop a team or elite brand of ball?...

It's a stark contrast from the organic championships that Curry, MJ, Kawhi and Kobe won - aka, guys that are skilled enough to achieve elite production without dominating the ball/reducing teammates to spot-up role... and while playing off of/enhancing teammates
.

[RRR3]

Your posts don’t make any sense. Kobe was very ball dominant.

[ImKobe]

No because basketball is a team sport and you need teammates to be engaged in order to win consistently.


Your posts don’t make any sense. Kobe was very ball dominant.

Kobe played however his team needed him to play in order to win. He might have been more ball-dominant against faster-paced garbage defensive teams like the Suns in 2010 but he would do whatever got his team the win. Of course he chucked it up when he had mediocre teammates around him and they were trailing in a game, him getting hot usually opens things up for his teammates and gives his team momentum.

[3ball]

Your posts don’t make any sense. Kobe was very ball dominant.
Not as much as Lebron.. Lebron was 387th out of 400 players for catch-and-shoot frequency

https://stats.nba.com/players/spot-up/?SeasonYear=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=POSS_PCT&dir=1


Otoh, Kobe was a great shooter and could play off-ball with catch-and-shoot.. he was also a dominant post player.

Most importantly, Kobe is a guard, so his ball-dominance isn't as abnormal for his position as Lebron - this matters because it's the abnormal ball-dominance above what the position normally does that gives teammates less time with the ball then they get on "normal" teams where there isn't abnormal ball-dominance at any position

[Manny98]

LeBrons time of possession is nowhere near Harden and Westbrook :lol

Curry has a higher time of possession than LeBron and he's supposed to have the "GOAT brand of basketball"

[Depression]

LeBrons time of possession is nowhere near Harden and Westbrook :lol

Curry has a higher time of possession than LeBron and he's supposed to have the "GOAT brand of basketball"

LeFraud is 3/9. L

Crazy Lebron stans :no:

[3ball]

LeBrons time of possession is nowhere near Harden and Westbrook :lol

Curry has a higher time of possession than LeBron and he's supposed to have the "GOAT brand of basketball"
Lebron matches them in the playoffs and his Finals are the highest time of possession ever

And Curry's ball-dominance isn't abnormal for his position like Lebron's at forward - this matters because it's the abnormal ball-dominance above what the position normally does that gives teammates less time with the ball then they get on "normal" teams where there isn't abnormal ball-dominance at any position

[ImKobe]

LeBrons time of possession is nowhere near Harden and Westbrook :lol

Curry has a higher time of possession than LeBron and he's supposed to have the "GOAT brand of basketball"

False

Lebron was ahead of both Westbrook and Harden in time of possession in the last Playoffs he played and has been ahead of Curry the last 3 seasons and in every single Playoffs since 2015.

Finals numbers are even more staggering.

12.2 in 2015 to Curry's 7.7
7.9 in 2016 to Curry's 5.8
8.2 in 2017 to Curry's 6.2 and KD's 4.8
11.5 in 2018 to Curry's 7.1 and KD's 4.8

That's ridiculous. KD and Curry combined had the ball about as much as Lebron himself in the 2018 Finals. Compare that to Kawhi having only a 5.3 in the 2019 Finals.

[Nashty]

Why did Jordan win only 6 rings while the G.O.A.T. Bill Russell won 11?

[AirBonner]

What is organic? Retiring till a team loads up with talent then returning from retirement right before the playoffs to join said loaded team?

[Turbo Slayer]

In your title, you spelled Westbrook wrong. Instead, you spelled ''Westbrok''

:roll:

Most overrated poster ever.

:coleman: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[MrFonzworth]

In your title, you spelled Westbrook wrong. Instead, you spelled ''Westbrok''

:roll:

Most overrated poster ever.

:coleman:
Alt exposed:roll:

[Turbo Slayer]

Alt exposed:roll: :lol

[3ball]

Why did Jordan win only 6 rings while the G.O.A.T. Bill Russell won 11?



^^^ Happy to answer that

There was no spacing or viable team offense prior to the 3-point line, which allowed a 1-way defender like Russell to win the most.

But spacing and team offense improved once the 3-point line was instituted in 1980.. Since then, all 40 league MVP's have been dominant offensive players, which means that Russell wouldn't be an MVP-caliber player in the modern era..

Accordingly, MJ's 6 rings as "the man" is the most in the modern era/3-pointer basketball... by far... 2nd place has only 3 rings as "the man".. So MJ won as "the man" twice as much as anyone in modern history, while being #1 in PPG, efficiency rating, championship record, and clutch - that's why he's goat and no one will ever come close.

[Smoke117]

The Rockets were clearly on their way to winning the 2018 championship before CP3's injury, so...yes...?

[3ball]

The Rockets were clearly on their way to winning the 2018 championship before CP3's injury, so...yes...?
this is a tough spot.

if I agree with you that the rockets would've won, then it's a knock on Lebron that he couldn't beat the Durant Warriors with a better cast than Harden had

But if I disagree, then I'm saying the warriors would've won regardless of cp3 injury and Lebron's loss with a better cast than Harden doesn't look so bad.

hard to decide... :durantunimpressed:

but i'll go with the first one - I agree with you - without the cp3 injury in 2018, the rockets would've gotten the first "organic" ring where the franchise player employs a ball-dominator, low-team-assist brand... Historically, guys like Lebron, Westbrook, CP3, Nash and others all failed to win organically with this brand - but there's a first for everything - and Harden would've been it.

So thanks for solving that Smoke... :cheers:... the ball-dominator is indeed a career-losing, shit brand, but Harden would've shown that it can win once in a zillion tries... :applause: ... again, thanks for helping with this one

[Smoke117]

this is a tough spot.

if I agree with you that the rockets would've won, then it's a knock on Lebron that he couldn't beat the Durant Warriors with a better cast than Harden had

But if I disagree, then I'm saying the warriors would've won regardless of cp3 injury and Lebron's loss with a better cast than Harden doesn't look so bad.

hard to decide... :durantunimpressed:

but i'll go with the first one - I agree with you - without the cp3 injury in 2018, the rockets would've gotten the first "organic" ring where the franchise player employs a ball-dominator, low-team-assist brand... Historically, guys like Lebron, Westbrook, CP3, Nash and others all failed to win organically with this brand - but there's a first for everything - and Harden would've been it.

So thanks for solving that Smoke... :cheers:... the ball-dominator is indeed a career-losing, shit brand, but Harden would've shown that it can win once in a zillion tries... :applause: ... again, thanks for helping with this one


Yes, obsess about LeBron on a post about the CP3 and Harden Rockets that have nothing to do with him. That's what you do best. Honestly, I'm with those posters that actually believe you hate Jordan and love LeBron considering nobody has done a better job of making Jordan as hateable as you have.
:cheers:

[3ball]

Yes, obsess about LeBron on a post about the CP3 and Harden Rockets that have nothing to do with him. That's what you do best. Honestly, I'm with those posters that actually believe you hate Jordan and love LeBron considering nobody has done a better job of making Jordan as hateable as you have.
:cheers:
no, it's everyone's childish mindset that makes MJ hateable

that mindset includes an ignorance of his game - i.e. "he wasn't that big and the footage doesn't look that great" (translation: "he wasn't the biggest player on the court, nor did he go on long dribble forays for all his points like Lebron, so he didn't seem that good to me")

this lesser mindset also includes the cumbaya human element - "MJ was a dick and just wanted to win.. he didn't give a shit about you like Lebron does, so that makes Lebron better to me"

so enjoy your fraud.. ignorance is bliss I get it

[DoctorP]

Or will the relegation of teammates to spot-up shooters forever suppress teammate development, thus requiring ready-made stars/teams acquired via team-hopping??

Essentially, will these guys always have to team-hop for ready-made teams because their style can't develop a team or elite brand of ball?... :facepalm

It's a stark contrast from the organic championships that Curry, MJ, Kawhi and Kobe won - aka, guys that are skilled enough to achieve elite production without dominating the ball/reducing teammates to spot-up role... and while playing off of/enhancing teammates
.


:roll:

That was a team effort. Can't put Curry in that league. Maybe Kawhi. Maybe

[3ball]

:roll:

That was a team effort. Can't put Curry in that league. Maybe Kawhi. Maybe
Curry's ring in 2015 was among the most organic ever - a shining example of winning an organic ring

klay was a first-time all-star that year - so curry's team wasn't even stacked..

and I've never thought klay/dray was some juggernaut core.. they aren't.. the warriors were a powerful team because curry could get 30 while barely touching the ball, so everyone else had maximum time to move the ball and play to capacity.. if he was getting 30 points by dominating the ball, then the warriors would've been a totally different team and probably looked like one of cp3 or lebron's 50-something win teams.. so a big drop-off.

[pauk]

3ball still at it i see... Ball dominance of that.... brand? A point-guard or a point-forward brand? Guys just... playing point-guard... "ball dominating".... win organically (whatever the **** that means)...

Would made microscopically more sense, but then you have Lebrons name there... who had one of the most impressive (if not the most) championship runs in NBA history, competition/odds/what he had to do / work with+against, go away...

Lebron, Magic, Cousy, Curry, Isiah etc etc... and since you have Lebron there, Pippen / Jordan were of that point-guardish/"ball-dominant" type of brand aswell, especially Jordan, who even played/started Point-Guard many times in his career remember?

Seems to me that brand of "ball-dominance" wins... alot... "organicaly"... 2 of those are GOATs... 3 arguably....

[tontoz]

Nash had a career usage rate of 21. CP3's is 24.

Their ball dominance isn't even close to Kobe at 31.8, or Jordan at 33.

[ArbitraryWater]

will Kawhi win organically this year?

[SpaceJam2]

https://i.postimg.cc/KcB48pTf/Trans-Bronsexual-2.jpg

[3ball]

Nash had a career usage rate of 21. CP3's is 24.

Their ball dominance isn't even close to Kobe at 31.8, or Jordan at 33.
Usage measures shot attempts, not how long someone holds the ball

a catch-and-shoot player like JJ Redick would lead the league in usage if he took 30 shots a game, but his ball-dominance would be zero

Usage isn't the ball-domination measure - time of possession is the measure (and it's tracked on nba.com... of course, Lebron's time of possession is the highest of all-time - no one needs more time to get stats than lebron.. no one hurts ball movement and brand of ball to get stats more than lebron)

[SpaceJam2]

Usage measures shot attempts, not how long someone holds the ball

a catch-and-shoot player like JJ Redick would lead the league in usage if he took 30 shots a game, but his ball-dominance would be zero

Usage isn't the ball-domination measure - time of possession is the measure (and it's tracked on nba.com... of course, Lebron's time of possession is the highest of all-time - no one needs more time to get stats than lebron.. no one hurts ball movement and brand of ball to get stats more than lebron)

No one has the playmaking ability like LeBron. Nobody has a high IQ like LeBron. Nobody is a better ball-handler and scoring combination like LeBron. That's why you see him hold the ball longer than other players. He has the ability to, while most weak players don't.

MJ never had the skill set to hold the ball that long. He would turn it over or make a dumb IQ play

[tontoz]

Usage measures shot attempts, not how long someone holds the ball

a catch-and-shoot player like JJ Redick would lead the league in usage if he took 30 shots a game, but his ball-dominance would be zero

Usage isn't the ball-domination measure - time of possession is the measure (and it's tracked on nba.com... of course, Lebron's time of possession is the highest of all-time - no one needs more time to get stats than lebron.. no one hurts ball movement and brand of ball to get stats more than lebron)


How convenient that it goes back only to 2014.

I watched Jordan play. He was definitely more ball dominant than Nash and Paul. That is why Jordan didn't want a playmaking pg next to him. He liked low usage guys like Paxon and Harper so he could dominate the ball. Jordan used to complain about BJ Armstrong because BJ would actually try to create on his own.

Phil Jackson had to get on his case constantly to get him to pass more. He even started cutting his minutes to make it harder for him to lead the league in scoring which was always a priority for Jordan. Jordan's response was to jack up more shots early in games.

[Vino24]

No one has the playmaking ability like LeBron. Nobody has a high IQ like LeBron. Nobody is a better ball-handler and scoring combination like LeBron. That's why you see him hold the ball longer than other players. He has the ability to, while most weak players don't.

MJ never had the skill set to hold the ball that long. He would turn it over or make a dumb IQ play
3ball has no rebuttal for this. Facts :applause:

[3ball]

How convenient that it goes back only to 2014. I watched Jordan play.

He was definitely more ball dominant than Nash and Paul. That is why Jordan didn't want a playmaking pg next to him. He liked low usage guys like Paxon.

Phil Jackson had to get on his case constantly to get him to pass more. He even started cutting his minutes to make it harder for him to lead the league in scoring which was always a priority for Jordan. Jordan's response was to jack up more shots early in games.
Pure lies - it's impossible for MJ to dribble like CP3 and Nash because he didn't bring the ball up court and played off-ball on most possessions, nor did he run high screen rolls like today's standard.

you're simply making things up and don't know what you're talking about.. you're saying the exact opposite of the obvious truth, which makes you look dumb.

The reality is that MJ led the league in scoring for all his rings - so he didn't have to pass to win - he was still scoring champ while winning rings, which no one else could do except Shaq and Kareem in their peak seasons of 2000 and 1971.. But despite being scoring champ, MJ still averaged 6 apg with low turnovers, so he was simply goat.. no one is close.. I don't think Lebron has a single playoff run without 3+ turnovers or being a leader in ball-domination/reducing team ball movement.

The reality is that Lebron needs 10 minutes of hold time to get 30 points, while Kawhi and Durant needs 5 minutes - the 5 minute gap represents 5 minutes of lesser hold time for Lebron's teammates, which explains why his cast always underperforms Kawhi's.. for their entire careers - the story is always how Lebron's cast underperforms and he needs more help - the time of possession stats explain why..

his presence as a point-forward gives his team 2 guys with a point-guard time of possession - essentially, Lebron's teams are 2 point guard lineups, which gives teammates less time and assists than they get in 1-PG lineups.. The lower assists for teammates means low TEAM assist rankings and a low ball movement brand that gets massively out-assisted and defeated on the championship level - these are all statistical facts.. but carry on..

[Vino24]

Pure lies - it's impossible for MJ to dribble like CP3 and Nash because he didn't bring the ball up court and played off-ball on most possessions, nor did he run high screen rolls like today's standard.

you're simply making things up and don't know what you're talking about.. you're saying the exact opposite of the obvious truth, which makes you look dumb.

The reality is that MJ led the league in scoring for all his rings - so he didn't have to pass to win - he was still scoring champ while winning rings, which no one else could do except Shaq and Kareem in their peak seasons of 2000 and 1971.. But despite being scoring champ, MJ still averaged 6 apg with low turnovers, so he was simply goat.. no one is close.. I don't think Lebron has a single playoff run without 3+ turnovers or being a leader in ball-domination/reducing team ball movement.

The reality is that Lebron needs 10 minutes of hold time to get 30 points, while Kawhi and Durant needs 5 minutes - the 5 minute gap represents 5 minutes of lesser hold time for Lebron's teammates, which explains why his cast always underperforms Kawhi's.. for their entire careers - the story is always how Lebron's cast underperforms and he needs more help - the time of possession stats explain why..

his presence as a point-forward gives his team 2 guys with a point-guard time of possession - essentially, Lebron's teams are 2 point guard lineups, which gives teammates less time and assists than they get in 1-PG lineups.. The lower assists for teammates means low TEAM assist rankings and a low ball movement brand that gets massively out-assisted and defeated on the championship level - these are all statistical facts.. but carry on..
LeBron is a playmaker and is also responsible for a lot more points. Shut the **** up :biggums:

[tontoz]

Pure lies - it's impossible for MJ to dribble like CP3 and Nash because he didn't bring the ball up court and played off-ball on most possessions, nor did he run high screen rolls like today's standard.

you're simply making things up and don't know what you're talking about.. you're saying the exact opposite of the obvious truth, which makes you look dumb.

The reality is that MJ led the league in scoring for all his rings - so he didn't have to pass to win - he was still scoring champ while winning rings, which no one else could do except Shaq and Kareem in their peak seasons of 2000 and 1971.. But despite being scoring champ, MJ still averaged 6 apg with low turnovers, so he was simply goat.. no one is close.. I don't think Lebron has a single playoff run without 3+ turnovers or being a leader in ball-domination/reducing team ball movement.




I watched Jordan play all the way back to college. I know his game. If he got a defensive rebound he wasn't looking to pass to a pg. He was taking it up court himelf.

It was always a priority for Jordan to lead the league in scoring. Always. If they were blowing a team out he would make sure he got his points before going to the bench.

LOL @ Jordan playing "off the ball". Do you think Paxon, Kerr or Harper was their primary ball handler in the half court sets? I guess Lebron was playing off the ball with the Heat and Cavs because he didn't bring the ball up court, right?

Jordan routinely ignored the offense and just attacked on his own.


Dave Corzine, the Bulls' center, while agreeing the team had no specific play calling for the isolation of Jordan, said it might appear that way sometimes.

''It might look like he's going one-on-one and everyone else is standing around,'' Corzine said before the game. ''But that's because Michael doesn't know what he's going to do until he does it. He's a great improviser.''


https://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/04/sports/challenges-for-jordan-new-league-rule-and-new-role.html


Jordan got the ball and did what he wanted regardless of the play called. Collins tried to get Jordan to play more team ball and failed. Jackson came in and used the triangle to get other guys more involved, but it was a constant struggle.

In their first Finals he had to yell at Jordan in the huddle to pass to an open Paxon at the end of the closeout game.

[3ball]

I watched Jordan play all the way back to college. I know his game. If he got a defensive rebound he wasn't looking to pass to a pg. He was taking it up court himelf.

It was always a priority for Jordan to lead the league in scoring. Always. If they were blowing a team out he would make sure he got his points before going to the bench.

LOL @ Jordan playing "off the ball". Do you think Paxon, Kerr or Harper was their primary ball handler in the half court sets? I guess Lebron was playing off the ball with the Heat and Cavs because he didn't bring the ball up court, right?

Jordan routinely ignored the offense and just attacked on his own.




https://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/04/sports/challenges-for-jordan-new-league-rule-and-new-role.html


Jordan got the ball and did what he wanted regardless of the play called. Collins tried to get Jordan to play more team ball and failed. Jackson came in and used the triangle to get other guys more involved, but it was a constant struggle.

In their first Finals he had to yell at Jordan in the huddle to pass to an open Paxon at the end of the closeout game.
You were wrong about usage - you didn't know what usage was and thought it was ball-domination.. Indeed, MJ shot a lot but didn't dominate the ball/disrupt ball movement like Lebron.

And the triangle didn't allow ball-domination from anyone - not MJ, not Pippen, not Kerr...

So MJ didn't dominate the ball in the halfcourt, whereas Lebron does - that's the difference

Ultimately, MJ was elite in all areas of offense, i.e. he could play off teammates, not just ball-domination/PG-style like Lebron's narrower skillset, which lacks the shooting or skills to play off teammates.

So MJ had a superior skillset that didn't need ball-domination - the lack of ball-domination allowed high assist teams with better ball movement that could compete better on the championship level, despite less talent (no super-teams).

[tontoz]

You were wrong about usage - you didn't know what usage was and thought it was ball-domination.. Indeed, MJ shot a lot but didn't dominate the ball/disrupt ball movement like Lebron.

So MJ didn't dominate the ball in the halfcourt, whereas Lebron does - that's the difference

Ultimately, MJ was elite in all areas of offense, i.e. he could play off teammates, not just ball-domination/PG-style like Lebron's narrower skillset, which lacks the shooting or skills to play off teammates.

So MJ had a superior skillset that didn't need ball-domination - the lack of ball-domination allowed high assist teams with better ball movement that could compete better on the championship level, despite less talent (no super-teams).


But Lebron didn't bring the ball up court, so he wasn't dominating the ball, right?

Jordan was absolutely ball dominant, he just placed a higher priority on scoring than Lebron. Jordan wasn't a catch and shoot player. He wasn't Ray Allen or Reggie Miller, running off screens to get open looks from 3. John Starks had this to say:


Michael Jordan

This might sound crazy — and every time I explain it to someone, they’re shocked — but Michael was the easiest to guard on this list.

I know, I know. I’m not saying I stopped him or anything. But let me explain.




Reggie moved a lot. You had to chase his ass all over the floor and get pounded into picks. The thing about Michael is that he wasn’t going to run you around a bunch of picks. He was just gonna get the ball and line you up. He was probably one of the only guys in the league who had no weaknesses in his game. You’d get the scouting report and it would basically say, “Good luck.” The only weakness I observed was that he wasn’t a great three-point shooter. He could make them when he needed, though, and over the years he got even better at it.


https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/the-5-toughest-players-ive-ever-defended

[3ball]

But Lebron didn't bring the ball up court, so he wasn't dominating the ball, right?

Jordan was absolutely ball dominant, he just placed a higher priority on scoring than Lebron. Jordan wasn't a catch and shoot player. He wasn't Ray Allen or Reggie Miller, running off screens to get open looks from 3. John Starks had this to say:




https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/the-5-toughest-players-ive-ever-defended
Jordan wasn't ball-dominant - you're simply lying about obvious fact - again, you look dumb

and MJ ran guys off tons of screens - maybe not against starks, or maybe starks didn't notice the times MJ wasn't iso'ing him, but MJ ran off a lot of screens.. He took more catch-and-shoots than JJ Redick.. you're just ignorant

[SpaceJam2]

No one has the playmaking ability like LeBron. Nobody has a high IQ like LeBron. Nobody is a better ball-handler and scoring combination like LeBron. That's why you see him hold the ball longer than other players. He has the ability to, while most weak players don't.

MJ never had the skill set to hold the ball that long. He would turn it over or make a dumb IQ play

Check and mate OP

[3ball]

Check and mate OP


Lebron needs 10 minutes of hold time to get 30 points, while Durant and kawhi need 5 minutes

this 5 minute gap represents less hold time for Lebron's teammates, which explains why they always underperform Kawhi and Durant's teammates.... check

so he would win more if he was skilled enough to get his same stats while holding the ball less like Kawhi, Durant, MJ, Curry and all the guys that win way more than him do

checkmate

[tontoz]

Jordan wasn't ball-dominant - you're simply lying about obvious fact - again, you look dumb

and MJ ran guys off tons of screens - maybe not against starks, or maybe starks didn't notice the times MJ wasn't iso'ing him, but MJ ran off a lot of screens.. He took more catch-and-shoots than JJ Redick.. you're just ignorant



Sure MJ changed his entire game against Starks. :rolleyes: Steve Smith said the exact same thing. Jordan used a lot of energy scoring and on D. He wasnt expending a lot of energy off the ball trying to get open.

Corzine flat out admitted that Jordan ignored the plays called and did what he wanted.

Jordan was looking to get to the rim first. The midrange shot was his fall back option. He was nothing like JJ at all. JJ is running off screens to get open looks from 3. Jordan was left open all day from 3. Other teams wanted him to shoot 3s.

[AirBonner]

Lebron needs 10 minutes of hold time to get 30 points, while Durant and kawhi need 5 minutes

this 5 minute gap represents less hold time for Lebron's teammates, which explains why they always underperform Kawhi and Durant's teammates.... check

so he would win more if he was skilled enough to get his same stats while holding the ball less like Kawhi, Durant, MJ, Curry and all the guys that win way more than him do

checkmate
LeBron is responsible for 45-60pts for his team every single game

[tontoz]

Jackson actually admitted that the book Jordan Rules, which detailed his selfishness and harsh treatment of his teammates, helped them going forward.

[QUOTE]Jackson believes Smith

[FKAri]

Lebron has already won multiple times. And he won them all, orgasmically.

[stalkerforlife]

Another one.

[tpols]

tontoz youre lying about MJ.

Theres no way he dribble spammed like any of the aforementioned players.

We have the tape, the guy worked off the ball tremendously and was very quick strike with his pump fakes, pull ups, spin moves, triple threat 1-2 dribble attack sets.

These guys pound the air out of the ball at the expense of ball movement to find the weakest, most exploitable mismatch they can, play after play, to get a cheap score.

[3ball]

LeBron is responsible for 45-60pts for his team every single game
Lebron's ball-domination replaces ball movement

So who cares how many assists he gets because his assists come at the expense of ball movement and higher TEAM assists

Lebron gets 13 assists but the team only has 18 and gets massively out-assisted and beaten

So lower assists from kawhi, curry or mj infact represents a superior skillset - the skillset achieves equivalent PPG and overall production/PER while the ball moves and teammates are getting off .. that's a better skillset than lebron needing to dominate the ball to get stats, which kills ball movement and team assists, or simply the ability to win 70 games and have a great team
.

[tontoz]

tontoz youre lying about MJ.

Theres no way he dribble spammed like any of the aforementioned players.

We have the tape, the guy worked off the ball tremendously and was very quick strike with his pump fakes, pull ups, spin moves, triple threat 1-2 dribble attack sets.

These guys pound the air out of the ball at the expense of ball movement to find the weakest, most exploitable mismatch they can, play after play, to get a cheap score.

Lol I watched his games. I know how he played. He didn't have to work hard to get the ball. All he had to do was go outside near the 3 point line, where the defense wanted him.

Were Starks and Smith lying? Was corzine lying? Was Phil lying?

Jordan is my favorite player ever but some on here have gotten too ridiculous with their blind homerism.

I wouldn't say he was as ball dominant as harden or Westbrook but he was not an off the ball player.

[STATUTORY]

conversely this is exactly why it's so easy to build championship teams around wing players like MJ/Leonard/Kobe/Durant

ability to assert OFF BALL domination is simply something advanced metrics have not caught on to

[tpols]

Lol I watched his games. I know how he played. He didn't have to work hard to get the ball. All he had to do was go outside near the 3 point line, where the defense wanted him.

Were Starks and Smith lying? Was corzine lying? Was Phil lying?

Jordan is my favorite player ever but some on here have gotten too ridiculous with their blind homerism.

I wouldn't say he was as ball dominant as harden or Westbrook but he was not an off the ball player.


Yes there are degrees to this stuff...

Jordan wasnt a ball dominator in the slightest, especially once he had good help.

All these guys... have great help, all NBA teammates and all stars galore... yet they still dominate the ball from the top with a live dribble.

MJ lived in the post and quick strike triple threat for the entirety of the bulls 6 rings.

You're being disingenuous.

[tpols]

and i cant hate on chris paul or nash for doing it...

theyre too brilliant and smart with it to hate on.

My problem is letting guys who arent good at basketball do it, like russell.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Gotta agree with Tpols and 3bot here.

Nobody is saying Mike was Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton. At least nobody sane. He also wasn't a ball dominator either. Not the way some of these modern superstars are anyway.

Jordan made quick decisions. He was in an equal opportunity offense for most of his prime too. And played off-ball next to Pip, who assumed point duties.

[Hey Yo]

Yes there are degrees to this stuff...

Jordan wasnt a ball dominator in the slightest, especially once he had good help.

All these guys... have great help, all NBA teammates and all stars galore... yet they still dominate the ball from the top with a live dribble.

MJ lived in the post and quick strike triple threat for the entirety of the bulls 6 rings.

You're being disingenuous.
:oldlol:

MJ lived at the perimeter in 97 and 98.

[tpols]

:oldlol:

MJ lived at the perimeter in 97 and 98.


why would you omit quick strike double threat mate?

are you aware that takes place on the perimeter?

:hammerhead:

[tontoz]

Yes there are degrees to this stuff...

Jordan wasnt a ball dominator in the slightest, especially once he had good help.

All these guys... have great help, all NBA teammates and all stars galore... yet they still dominate the ball from the top with a live dribble.

MJ lived in the post and quick strike triple threat for the entirety of the bulls 6 rings.

You're being disingenuous.

You are just clueless. Jordan was criticized for years for being too selfish. That did stop even after he won his first title against a hobbled Lakers.

He didn't "live in the post". He started posting up more after he came back from playing baseball. He wasn't doing that much in his 20s. In his 30s when he lost some quickness he relied on it more.

Early in his career he was looking to attack the rim first and if he was cut off then he would pull up for a j. He was not a catch and shoot player, especially in his 20s.

They didn't have enough spacing for him to live in the post.

[Kblaze8855]

It’s all relative. Everybody called Jordan a ball hog and relative to a lot of the greats at the time he was. He was not a ball hog at all relative to the generation(s) that came after him and became ISO specialists.

Tontoz Is about my age. He remembers when the entire narrative around Jordan was being a huge ball hog who couldn’t play team ball. He’s not talking about clips he saw. He remembers it just like I do. I’ve talked to him about enough over the years to know that.

Jordan was absolutely considered a huge ball hog.

He just wasn’t one in comparison to the pick and roll spamming guys we have now or the dribble dribble dribble early 2000s guys.

He certainly had the ball less than the people in the title of the topic....but he probably got called a ball hog more than anyone else in his day. He didn’t need long to make his moves....didn’t have to rock you to sleep or wait for a screen. So if you could time it I’m sure he would have held the ball less.

But the idea MJ was a ball hog wouldn’t be at all unusual when he was playing. People just didn’t know what was to come.

[tpols]

people conflate what ball hog means...

there's a difference between a shot jacker and a dribble spammer, with the latter much more defining ball dominance.

[tontoz]

people conflate what ball hog means...

there's a difference between a shot jacker and a dribble spammer, with the latter much more defining ball dominance.


Jordan wasn't a dribble spammer for sure. But he was a shot jacker but in a different sense.
Especially in his younger days he would attack the basket relentlessly. The closest comparison today would be Westbrook.

Imagine if Westbrook was 6'6 and could palm the ball like a volleyball. Now imagine if he had a better jumper and iq. That should give you an idea of what a young Jordan was like.

He was a shoot first guy with a bit of tunnel vision, but he wasn't going to dribble the air out of the ball.

[Young X]

You are just clueless. Jordan was criticized for years for being too selfish. That did stop even after he won his first title against a hobbled Lakers.

He didn't "live in the post". He started posting up more after he came back from playing baseball. He wasn't doing that much in his 20s. In his 30s when he lost some quickness he relied on it more.

Early in his career he was looking to attack the rim first and if he was cut off then he would pull up for a j. He was not a catch and shoot player, especially in his 20s.

They didn't have enough spacing for him to live in the post.He was criticized for taking too many shots. Alot of those shots were still him getting the ball (in the halfcourt) and making a quick decision not dribbling the ball for most of the shotclock every possession. That's the difference.

[tpols]

Jordan wasn't a dribble spammer for sure. But he was a shot jacker but in a different sense.
Especially in his younger days he would attack the basket relentlessly. The closest comparison today would be Westbrook.

Imagine if Westbrook was 6'6 and could palm the ball like a volleyball. Now imagine if he had a better jumper and iq. That should give you an idea of what a young Jordan was like.

He was a shoot first guy with a bit of tunnel vision, but he wasn't going to dribble the air out of the ball.


Comparing Jordan to Westbrook in any aspect is retarded.

It'd be like saying if mugsy bogues was 7'1, and 350 lbs, and skilled in the post, he'd be shaq.

There's too many caveats lmao... just let it be and take michael jordan's name out of this discussion.

[tontoz]

Comparing Jordan to Westbrook in any aspect is retarded.

It'd be like saying if mugsy bogues was 7'1, and 350 lbs, and skilled in the post, he'd be shaq.

There's too many caveats lmao... just let it be and take michael jordan's name out of this discussion.


Jordan made the comparison himself. I think he knows more than you.



https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/michael-jordan-says-russell-westbrook-reminds-him-of-his-younger-self/

[sdot_thadon]

tontoz actually sounds like a guy who watched Mj live, he was considered a ball hog before success and his was more shot dominance than ball dominance dribbling. He wasn't not in the same area of off ball play as a guy like reggie who mostly lived there. Mj had a balanced diet of anything you could do to score the ball. My question is what would you rather? I've never in my life played in a run where someone complained about not getting to dribble the ball enough. I've seen literal fist fights over shot attempts though, so as a player you're not caring who dribbles the ball as much as who shoots it at the end of the day. Even some of MJ's teammates had as valid complaints as his teammates about shot attempts.

But to answer the op question: plenty of success has been had through ball dominance, there's more than one way to skin a cat.......

[sdot_thadon]

Comparing Jordan to Westbrook in any aspect is retarded.

It'd be like saying if mugsy bogues was 7'1, and 350 lbs, and skilled in the post, he'd be shaq.

There's too many caveats lmao... just let it be and take michael jordan's name out of this discussion.
what? westbrooks motor and drive is probably the closest we'll come to seeing young MJ's energy on the floor.:facepalm

[tontoz]

For the record Nash averaged 15.5 ppg in his first year with the Suns. He was their 4th leading scorer.

Amare 26 ppg
Marion 19.4
JJ 17.1
Nash 15.5
Qrich 14.9

Keep in mind that he was one of the best shooters ever and played for MDA, yet averaged only 15.5. I don't think he was reluctant to let go of the ball at all. Their game plan was to strike quickly not dribble around.

That team was certainly good enough to win a title but they had some bad luck.

[Young X]

How convenient that it goes back only to 2014.

I watched Jordan play. He was definitely more ball dominant than Nash and Paul. That is why Jordan didn't want a playmaking pg next to him. He liked low usage guys like Paxon and Harper so he could dominate the ball. Jordan used to complain about BJ Armstrong because BJ would actually try to create on his own.

Phil Jackson had to get on his case constantly to get him to pass more. He even started cutting his minutes to make it harder for him to lead the league in scoring which was always a priority for Jordan. Jordan's response was to jack up more shots early in games.The Bulls didn't need a playmaking PG...they had Scottie.

[StrongLurk]

OP's thread is terrible :roll:

OP is PRAYING every day of his life that the Lakers don't win a chip this year.

[tontoz]

OP's thread is terrible :roll:

OP is PRAYING every day of his life that the Lakers don't win a chip this year.


We should remember that Lebron had back to back 60 win seasons during his first Cavs run and took a pretty weak supporting cast to the Finals.

Gilbert's teams have been a dumpster fire without Lebron.

[Overdrive]

No one has the playmaking ability like LeBron. Nobody has a high IQ like LeBron. Nobody is a better ball-handler and scoring combination like LeBron. That's why you see him hold the ball longer than other players. He has the ability to, while most weak players don't.

MJ never had the skill set to hold the ball that long. He would turn it over or make a dumb IQ play

That's bullshit. Jordan was a good to great playmaker himself. The better rebuttal is Jordan was considered a ball hog just like 3ball accuses Lebron of being.

[Turbo Slayer]

you guys are literally dumb

Jordan was accused of shooting too much, but never holding the ball like Lebron

Jordan proved that shooting a lot can win 6 rings and go 6/6, while Lebron's excessive ball-domination and hold-time results in 3/9 and basically a joke on the championship level (multiple sweeps and record defeats)

no comparison
u mad?
https://media.giphy.com/media/GQl53vCZm9lC0/giphy.gif

2016 ring 4ever :bowdown: Legoat

Busy hating on a man who doesnt even know u? :(

[3ball]

That's bullshit. Jordan was a good to great playmaker himself. The better rebuttal is Jordan was considered a ball hog just like 3ball accuses Lebron of being.
you're misguided on this

Jordan was accused of shooting too much, but never holding the ball like Lebron

Jordan proved that shooting a lot can win 6 rings and go 6/6, while Lebron's excessive ball-domination and hold-time results in 3/9 and basically a joke on the championship level (multiple sweeps and record defeats)

no comparison.

[3ball]

u mad?
https://media.giphy.com/media/GQl53vCZm9lC0/giphy.gif

2016 ring 4ever :bowdown: Legoat

Busy hating on a man who doesnt even know u? :(
I'm probably related to Lebron because we look alike with similar features, (except I'm better looking and probably bigger where it matters)

so the next time someone gives me a startled look in public and says "you look like Lebron James", i'll try to get it on video.

As for Lebron beating Curry/Klay/Dray - who doesn't beat them?... they aren't championship juggernauts (losing Finals record), and Lebron did the worst that anyone could do once Durant was added (record defeat)

Nobody views beating Curry as some major accomplishment - his 2016 will be like MJ's 1998 - diminished and revised as time goes on.

[Turbo Slayer]

I'm probably related to Lebron because we look alike with similar features, (except I'm better looking and probably bigger where it matters)



Nobody views beating Curry as some major accomplishment - his 2016 will be like MJ's 1998 - diminished and revised as time goes on.
legoat james leads nba finals in all statistical categories against the 73-9 warriors. :roll:

Jordan could never. :(

LeGOAT

Im 14 years old btw. I made a video shouting out ISH.

[3ball]

legoat james leads nba finals in all statistical categories against the 73-9 warriors. :roll:

Jordan could never. :(

LeGOAT

Im 14 years old btw. I made a video shouting out ISH.
41/9/6 > 30/11/9

that's 11 more ppg in a slower-paced series (so it's really 12-13 ppg less)

Additionally, MJ scored 20 ppg more than his 2nd option (carry-job) and the record for percentage of team points (carry-job), while Lebron's sidekick basically matched him in ppg (not a carry-job, and kyrie's shot infact closed out the series)

no comparison

But hey - Lebron has been overrated by a few media members, despite winning half the rings - so continue the trend and overrate a performance where Lebron scored 11 ppg less on worse efficiency... carry on

[Turbo Slayer]

41/9/6 > 30/11/9

that's 11 more ppg in a slower-paced series (so it's really 12-13 ppg less)

Additionally, MJ scored 20 ppg more than his 2nd option (carry-job) and the record for percentage of team points (carry-job), while Lebron's sidekick basically matched him in ppg (not a carry-job, and kyrie's shot infact closed out the series)

no comparison

But hey - Lebron has been overrated by a few media members, despite winning half the rings - so continue the trend and overrate a performance where Lebron scored 11 ppg less on worse efficiency... carry on LeBron had the GOAT block to change the momentum :bowdown: and also..

how did pip carry the bulls to 55 wins?
Explain.

LeGOAT :D

[RRR3]

I'm probably related to Lebron because we look alike with similar features, (except I'm better looking and probably bigger where it matters)

so the next time someone gives me a startled look in public and says "you look like Lebron James", i'll try to get it on video.

As for Lebron beating Curry/Klay/Dray - who doesn't beat them?... they aren't championship juggernauts (losing Finals record), and Lebron did the worst that anyone could do once Durant was added (record defeat)

Nobody views beating Curry as some major accomplishment - his 2016 will be like MJ's 1998 - diminished and revised as time goes on.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

LeBron had the GOAT block to change the momentum :bowdown: and also..


MJ had the goat steal AND game-winner.

So MJ >>>





how did pip carry the bulls to 55 wins?


Well it wasn't his supporting talent, because he didn't have much

And it wasn't his stats, because they were ho-hum for a good #1 option

So apparently, those Bulls won via the championship system that they'd developed by 3-peating..

It's no different then the Spurs winning without Duncan - it's the system... But apparently, a championship system is only good enough to be a 2nd Round team without the main guy... The team needs Duncan and MJ to turn them from 2nd Round to dynasty... :bowdown:

[tontoz]

When Jordan retired to play baseball do you really think they didn't add players to the roster?

Pretty sure that was Kukoc's first year with the Bulls. They added other guys but i would have to look them up.

Let's not forget they won 67 games on their way to their second title.

[3ball]

Jordan was a ball-hog


You're conflating high shot volume and ball-dominance (high hold-time)

MJ proved that high shot volume can yield the goat dynasty of the modern era and win 6 rings with 6/6

while Lebron proved that excessive ball-dominance can go 3/9 and be perennial underdogs despite super-teams.

no comparison

but carry on






Jordan wasn't an off-ball player


He was literally the best off-ball player ever - he did things off-ball and slashing off-ball that players can only dream of

But I think you're remembering 1986 and 1989 - those were 2 seasons where MJ basically played PG.. he frequently brought the ball up under Stan Albeck in 1986 when he came back from the injury, especially against the Celtics in the 1st Rd... And Doug Collins put him at PG in 1989 when the starting PG (vincent) got hurt at the end of the year... then Collins basically kept MJ at point guard in the playoffs when Vincent came back, and moved hodges to the off-guard spot.

But other than 86' and 89', MJ was an off-ball player primarily.. And he did things off-ball that guys can only dream of doing.. i.e. hang-time catch-and-shoot, otherworldly slashing, etc.
..

[tontoz]

You're conflating high shot volume and ball-dominance (high hold-time)

MJ proved that high shot volume can yield the goat dynasty of the modern era and win 6 rings with 6/6

while Lebron proved that excessive ball-dominance can go 3/9 and be perennial underdogs despite super-teams.

no comparison

carry on


If a guy gets the ball, takes 2 dribbles and shoots that isn't much different than someone who takes 5 dribbles and shoots. Just because he didn't dribble as much as Harden doesn't mean he wasn't ball dominant.

When Jordan got the ball he wasn't looking to pass. Swinging the ball to the open man wasn't part of his game.

Routinely ignoring play calls and going 1 on 1 is being ball dominant. It was tolerated because he was very good at it but that is part of the reason he struggled to get past Detroit. Their defense was tailor made to stop him from getting to the rim.



He was literally the best off-ball player ever

That is straight nuts. He didnt move off the ball half as much as Reggie/Ray/Klay/Steph and wasn't a threat from 3. Nobody was denying him the ball on the perimeter because they were worried about him going back door and he wasn't a threat from 3. . Steph literally gets double teamed off the ball at the 3 point line. Nobody ever doubled Jordan on the perimeter when he didn't have the ball.

Why do you feel the need to distort history?

For most of his career Lebron hasn't been bringing the ball up the court. Does that make him an off ball player?

[3ball]

When Jordan got the ball he wasn't looking to pass. Swinging the ball to the open man wasn't part of his game.


People called MJ a ball-hog in the 80's, but teammates were actually growing by leaps and bounds alongside him.. Pippen, Horace and BJ grew from single-digit rookies into all-star caliber by the time MJ retired in 1993..

And his improving cast was the changing factor that allowed winning, not MJ passing more - MJ averaged 6 assists in the 80's, including an 8 apg season.. So he was always a good passer - that never changed - the thing that changed was his cast got better (which proved that his game was infact optimal and helped teammates... it turns out that high volume and efficiency done mostly off-ball fits into a system and gives teammates a big assist target that facilitates their passing and ball movement in general).





MJ wasn't looking to pass.


In addition to Jordan's 6 apg in the 80's or his 8 apg season, MJ averaged 33.7 and 6.6 apg in the 1991-1993 playoffs, versus 27.2 and 7.2 for Lebron in the 12/13/16 playoffs - so MJ averaged equal assists as Lebron for his first 3 rings..

MJ also averaged 36 and 7.9 apg for the 91-93' Finals, compared to 27.0 and 7.2 for Lebron in the 12/13/16 Finals - so MJ passed more for his first 3 Finals wins than Lebron did.. Finally, MJ's playoff stats thru 30 years old (85-93') show equal assists as Lebron's stats thru 30..

So you're just WAY OFF in evaluating the goat's game.. He was a great passer, and is the only player ever to average 10+ apg in a series WITHOUT playing pg (bringing the ball up the court)






Jordan wasn't looking to pass.


Again, you're simply forgetting that MJ was a great passer and averaged equal or more assists than Lebron in the playoffs thru 3 rings, or thru 30 years old, take your pick.

Initially, people knocked MJ for being a ball-hog because he took a lot of shots and wasn't winning rings - but he ultimately proved them wrong, aka succeeded with high shot volume specifically BECAUSE he didn't dominate the ball.. He wouldn't have won shit if he shot that much and held the ball like Harden or Lebron.





Why do you feel the need to distort history?


I'm not distorting anything - this is all statistical fact:

Lebron gives his team a 2nd player on the floor with a PG time of possession (hold-time).. He essentially creates a 2-PG lineup, which gives teammates less hold-time and assists then they get in traditional 1-PG lineups.. Lower teammate assists result in low TEAM assists and a low ball-movement brand that struggles on the championship level, aka 3/9.. Indeed, Lebron's style in inherently suboptimal





Why do you feel the need to distort history?


Other posters itt have said that you're the one trying to change history by saying MJ was ball-dominant and wasn't an off-ball player

both false

Otoh, I'm posting stats and facts that you refute with conjecture and old, quotes that MJ proved wrong.





Do you feel insecure about Lebron? Why do you obsess about him so much?


Because people like you and the media have it all wrong - he's nowhere near goat - not even top 5 - so he's vastly overrated and I'm simply pointing out exactly why

Ultimately, his style turns teammates into spot-up shooters, which doesn't develop players or teams and therefore requires team-hopping for ready-made stars/teams.. So Lebron avoided the career-losing fate of fellow ball-dominators like Nash or CP3 by team-hopping for the extra talent this suboptimal style needs to win.





MJ dominated the ball and hurt ball movement


No, MJ scored quickly upon the catch - he didn't hamper ball movement

Otoh, Lebron scores slowly off long dribble forays, which hampers ball movement and creates a low assist team

i.e. Stan Van Gundy said he loved letting Lebron get his buckets in the 2009 ECF - one long dribble foray after another - so he never doubled Lebron, since double-teams create a 4-on-3 and spur ball movement... But against MJ, Stan wouldn't be able to defend a 1 ball-dominator and 4 shooter approach all game long (which defenses get really good at defending by the 4th quarter) - Stan would have to defend more complicated off-ball movement like pindowns and better ball movement in general..

So MJ's superior brand would've won that series easily, as they were heavily-favored to do - Mo Williams didn't play that great, but MJ won many series with FAR worse play from his sidekick than Mo gave in that series... MJ still won because the role players were always maximized by the system - they were killing their matchups regardless of how bad Pippen was playing.





Do you feel insecure about Lebron? Why do you obsess about him so much?


I don't feel insecure because the eye test proves me right AND stats like this:

Currently, Lebron needs 10 minutes of hold time to get 30 points, while Kawhi needs 5 minutes... The 5 minute gap gives the supporting cast 5 more minutes of hold time, which explains why Kawhi's cast always outperforms Lebron's and doesn't appear marginalized - the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's cast underperforms and it's because of his excessive hold time.
.

[tontoz]

James harden averaged 8 assists per game last year. Does that mean he isn't ball dominant?

For most of Lebron's career he wasn't bringing the ball up the court. Does that make him an off ball player?

John Starks and others said Jordan was "easy" to guard because he wasn't running off screens:

[QUOTE]This might sound crazy

[3ball]

James harden averaged 8 assists per game last year. Does that mean he isn't ball dominant?

For most of Lebron's career he wasn't bringing the ball up the court. Does that make him an off ball player?

John Starks and others said Jordan was "easy" to guard because he wasn't running off screens:



https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/the-5-toughest-players-ive-ever-defended

Then you turn around and make up this nonsense about Jordan being the best off the ball player ever. :lol
Like others have said, MJ wasn't exclusively a catch-and-shoot player - so of course people don't group him with guys like reggie miller

But just because he wasn't a better catch-and-shoot player than Miller or Starks doesn't view him like a Miller-type, that doesn't mean MJ wasn't a better overall off-ball player - he spent most of his time off-ball and scored quickly upon catch

MJ is the only player in history that can score quickly like this after moving off-ball:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-13-2015/LJ8raP.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-28-2015/ew2ZUl.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-23-2019/tWDz_j.gif

[tontoz]

So by your standards Lebron is an off the ball player because he wasn't bringing the ball upcourt.

:facepalm

I am sure you could find clips of Jordan making 3s. That doesn't make him a good 3 point shooter.

[tpols]

If a guy gets the ball, takes 2 dribbles and shoots that isn't much different than someone who takes 5 dribbles and shoots. Just because he didn't dribble as much as Harden doesn't mean he wasn't ball dominant.


this may be the dumbest thing ive ever read on this site and thats saying quite a bit.

[tontoz]

this may be the dumbest thing ive ever read on this site and thats saying quite a bit.


You must not read your own posts.

[3ball]

I am sure you could find clips of Jordan making 3s. That doesn't make him a good 3 point shooter

.
No one is coming on here agreeing with you because you're going against common knowledge and obviously have it wrong





So by your standards Lebron is an off the ball player because he wasn't bringing the ball upcourt.


Lebron has always brought the ball up but shared those duties with the actual PG

Lebron gives his team a 2nd player on the floor with a PG time of possession (hold-time).. He essentially creates a 2-PG lineup, which gives teammates less hold-time and assists then they get in traditional 1-PG lineups.. Lower teammate assists result in low TEAM assists and a low ball-movement brand that struggles on the championship level, aka 3/9.. Indeed, Lebron's style in inherently suboptimal

But you honestly don't seem smart enough to understand anything I just said






I am sure you could find clips of Jordan making 3s. That doesn't make him a good 3 point shooter.



Everyone itt knows you have it wrong - a cursory glance at any footage shows MJ off-ball most of the time and then scoring quickly upon the catch.. sometimes with no dribbles (pure off-ball), or sometimes with 1 or 2 dribbles like this:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-18-2019/KDrt5G.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-11-2015/5_A_4K.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/zC5nUD.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-03-2015/P5BrOZ.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/9VPzJD.gif


MJ finished with more variety, instinct and repertoire off-the-catch/off-ball than anyone in history, except for maybe 1 or 2 other guys





I am sure you could find clips of Jordan making 3s. That doesn't make him a good 3 point shooter.


Actually it would, because MJ had the goat form

And he shot well anytime it mattered (35.2% on 2.2 attempts in 85-93' playoffs... 38% in 91-93' Finals on 3.3 attempts)

Or anytime he tried (attempted less than 1.5 threes every year except 2 years where he shot 38% and 35% on 3+ attempts)

He infact shot 39% on 4 attempts during the 1993 playoffs - that's better than Kawhi's 19' run - so when someone asks "could MJ shoot threes good enough for today's era", the answer is "he already did - he shot better in 1993 playoffs than kawhi did this year.. and that's without focusing on it like today's era"

[tontoz]

I dont need to watch footage. I watched him play. He had the ball more than anyone on his team, by a lot. He would routinely ignore play calls to go one on one. I already quoted one of his teamates about this earlier in the thread.

Lebron will actually make a swing pass at times. He does that every game. That was not part of Jordan's arsenal. He caught the ball and looked to score.

Kyrie routinely brought the ball up court with the Cavs. That doesn't make Lebron and off ball player. Miami had Mario Chalmers bringing the ball up court. That didn't make Lebron an off the ball player.

For his career Jordan averaged .5 made 3s per game shooting 32.7%. Not even close to Lebron. My opinion is that he could have been a good 3 pt shooter if he put forth the effort to do so. But that is just an opinion. The reality is that he wasn't much of a threat from 3 and was routinely left open.

I watched game 1 of the Finals against Portland when he made 5 or 6 3s in a row in the first half. Drexler didn't contest one of them. After the game Drexler said "those are the shots we want him to take".

[SpaceJam2]

3ball is so shook I love it :lol Whenever I'm around he avoids eye contact and keeps his head down.

He's a loyal dog and I love him for it.

Hey 3ball...

What's MJ's best ring? :lol

[tpols]

You must not read your own posts.


thats like 2nd grade homie...

i know you are but what am i

You can do better.

[tontoz]

thats like 2nd grade homie...

i know you are but what am i

You can do better.



You already showed how clueless you are. You obviously didn't watch Jordan play.

You really showed your ignorance when you said the Westbrook comparison was ridiculous. You didn't even know Jordan made the comparison himself.

:lol

[SpaceJam2]

You already showed how clueless you are. You obviously didn't watch Jordan play.

You really showed your ignorance when you said the Westbrook comparison was ridiculous. You didn't even know Jordan made the comparison himself.

:lol


Got'm :lol

[Replay32]

Jordan was a ball hog especially early in his career. He's was pretty good at basketball though.

Go back a watch that 63 point game against the celtics. He and Woolridge took turns iso'ing the whole game. Jordan shot 43 times in a NBA finals basketball game.

[tpols]

You already showed how clueless you are. You obviously didn't watch Jordan play.

You really showed your ignorance when you said the Westbrook comparison was ridiculous. You didn't even know Jordan made the comparison himself.

:lol


3ball can you please ether this clown on this westbrook vs mj comparison...

this guy is breaking my balls.

[tontoz]

I really don't feel comfortable criticizing Jordan because he is my favorite player ever, but 3ball is just over the top.

I still have a poster from the free throw dunk in the dunk contest. I have a couple of his vids too, as well as the books Jordan Rules and another one that i can't remember the title lol.

edit: the other book is Hang Time, written from a completely different perspective than the Jordan Rules. It was bugging me that i couldnt remember the title.

[SpaceJam2]

Jordan was a ball hog especially early in his career. He's was pretty good at basketball though.

Go back a watch that 63 point game against the celtics. He and Woolridge took turns iso'ing the whole game. Jordan shot 43 times in a NBA finals basketball game.
Jesus 43 :lol

[3ball]

I dont need to watch footage. I watched him play.

He had the ball more than anyone on his team, by a lot.


MJ shot more than everyone else - but he didn't hold the ball longer than everyone else, or excessively, or for long periods of time

But again, you're conflating shot attempts with holding the ball and stopping ball movement - MJ showed that high shot attempts can result in the goat dynasty and brand, while lebron's long hold time results in perennial underdogs and mostly losing with superteams

So stop conflating shot attempts with long hold time - the former resulted in 6/6 goat basketball, and the latter resulted in weak brand and perennial underdogs with super-teams





Lebron will actually make a swing pass at times. He does that every game. That was not part of Jordan's arsenal. MJ caught the ball and looked to score.


So why did MJ average equal or more assists than Lebron in the playoffs for each player's first 3 rings?

MJ averaged 33.7 and 6.6 apg in the 1991-1993 playoffs, versus 27.2 and 7.2 for Lebron in the 12/13/16 playoffs - so MJ averaged equal assists as Lebron for his first 3 championship runs..

MJ also averaged 36.3 and 7.9 apg for the 91-93' Finals, compared to 27.0 and 7.2 for Lebron in the 12/13/16 Finals - so MJ passed more for his first 3 Finals wins than Lebron did.. Finally, MJ's playoff stats thru 30 years old (85-93') show equal assists as Lebron's stats thru 30..

So you're just WAY OFF in evaluating the goat's game.. He was a great passer, and is the only player ever to average 10+ apg in a series WITHOUT playing pg (bringing the ball up the court)





Kyrie routinely brought the ball up court with the Cavs. That doesn't make Lebron and off ball player. Miami had Mario Chalmers bringing the ball up court. That didn't make Lebron an off the ball player.


Yes, Kyrie, Chalmers and Mo brought the ball up - but so did Lebron - he's always shared those duties with the actual PG

It's a statistical fact that Lebron gives his team a 2nd player on the floor with a PG time of possession (hold-time).. He essentially creates a 2-PG lineup, which gives teammates less hold-time and assists then they get in traditional 1-PG lineups.. Lower teammate assists result in low TEAM assists and a low ball-movement brand that struggles on the championship level, aka 3/9.. Indeed, Lebron's style in inherently suboptimal





I watched game 1 of the Finals against Portland when he made 5 or 6 3s in a row in the first half. Drexler didn't contest one of them. After the game Drexler said "those are the shots we want him to take"

.
Players in previous eras shot threes on the move because they had to run off screens to get threes - there was no high screen roll, spread floor, and drive-and-kick setup to get open, stand-still threes like today's game (yes there was an occasional drive-and-kick but it wasn't the standard play)

Today's game has created a format that maximizes three-point attempts and their openness - according to NBA.com's player-tracking data, 89% of threes are taken 4-6 feet from the closest defender ("open"), or 6+ feet away ("wide open")... the number is 80% for Curry... Only harden takes contested threes for a large part of his threes

So you may think MJ's threes were open (most actually weren't), but today's threes are MORE open and easier to get...
.

[tontoz]

James Harden averaged 8.2 assists last year. So what? The next time he makes a swing pass will probably be his first, at least in Houston.

He gets assists by beating his man off the dribble, collapsing the defense and hitting the open man. Jordan did the same thing, just with fewer dribbles.

Jordan was routinely open from 3. Nobody would guard him closely because a) he was a reluctant/weak shooter from 3 and b) if they got too close he would just blow past them, which is what every defense feared.

Jordan definitely hindered the ball movement. When he got the ball he was going to shoot or dribble almost all the time. Maybe once in awhile he might hit a guy cutting to the basket but that wasn't the norm. He definitely wasn't swinging it to a guy on the perimeter.

[And1AllDay]

James Harden averaged 8.2 assists last year. So what? The next time he makes a swing pass will probably be his first, at least in Houston.

He gets assists by beating his man off the dribble, collapsing the defense and hitting the open man. Jordan did the same thing, just with fewer dribbles.

Jordan was routinely open from 3. Nobody would guard him closely because a) he was a reluctant/weak shooter from 3 and b) if they got too close he would just blow past them, which is what every defense feared.

Jordan definitely hindered the ball movement. When he got the ball he was going to shoot or dribble almost all the time. Maybe once in awhile he might hit a guy cutting to the basket but that wasn't the norm. He definitely wasn't swinging it to a guy on the perimeter.

1baLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

ethered again

[3ball]

James Harden averaged 8.2 assists last year. So what? The next time he makes a swing pass will probably be his first, at least in Houston.


On what planet does Lebron swing the ball - if Lebron swung the ball, his teams would have a good brand of ball movement like the Spurs or Warriors

but instead he employs the 1 ball-dominator and 4 shooter approach (ball-dominant drive-and-kick), which is the opposite of swinging the ball..

So you've completely lost your head on this one and have it backwards.. Lebron plays a version of Harden/OKC Westbrook-ball, where it's 1 guy dribbling and 4 guys spotting up - that is NOT a format that swings the ball consistently or has good ball movement





James Harden averaged 8.2 assists last year. So what? The next time he makes a swing pass will probably be his first, at least in Houston.


You realize that Lebron and Harden have low assist teams right?... That's what happens with 2-PG lineups (i.e. Harden/CP3 or Lebron/Kyrie) - teammates have less hold-time and assists in 2-PG lineups than 1-PG lineups, which results in low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level..

lebron simply avoided the same career-losing fate as his fellow ball-dominators by team-hopping for the extra talent the style needs to win





Jordan definitely hindered the ball movement. When he got the ball he was going to shoot or dribble almost all the time. Maybe once in awhile he might hit a guy cutting to the basket but passing wasn't the norm for MJ. He definitely wasn't swinging it to a guy on the perimeter.


you're literally making it up because MJ averaged equal or greater assists than Lebron thru 3 rings each - so your claims that he rarely passed are simply false - his assist stats in the playoffs look amazing thru 1993..

And if MJ hindered ball movement, why is Lebron the guy with the low assist teams? Why are Lebron's teams massively out-assisted in the Finals? How come a coach put MJ's game in a system, but none of Lebron's 80 coaches could?





Jordan definitely hindered the ball movement.


If you won't listen to me, listen to the goat talent evaluator who explicitly says that MJ is better for ball movement than Lebron (24:33 mark):


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TfpDYxq9K3U&t=24m06s


What more needs to be said??... :kobe:

[3ball]

tontoz, if you still think MJ hurts ball movement, listen to the goat talent evaluator (Jerry West), who explicitly says that MJ is better for ball movement than Lebron (24:33 mark):


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TfpDYxq9K3U&t=24m06s


What more needs to be said??... :kobe:


tontoz, you disappeared after this post ^^^

You said MJ was bad for ball movement, and then Jerry West says above that MJ was better for ball movement the Lebron..

So is that enough to convince you that you were off on this, as other posters tried to tell you?

[tontoz]

Do you ever go to bed, or do you just hover over your computer 24/7 waiting for someone to mention Jordan?

No team in the league averaged 30 assists last year. The Bulls ran the triangle which stressed ball movement. Jordan routinely ignored the offense but the rest of the team ran it. They needed to because they didn't have good spacing.

Now it is a pick and roll league with a spread floor. Different era, different offenses. Now it is all about isos and pick and rolls.

Funny how you only talk about the difference in eras when it suits your agenda. Your double standards are almost as comical as your copying and pasting the same nonsense over and over.

I have never said Lebron was a better player than Jordan. They are different players with different strengths and weaknesses. I don't feel the need to say one is better than the other.

[Lebron23]

3ball got wrecked in this thread

[RealSkipBayless]

You realize that Lebron and Harden have low assist teams right?... That's what happens with 2-PG lineups (i.e. Harden/CP3 or Lebron/Kyrie) - teammates have less hold-time and assists in 2-PG lineups than 1-PG lineups, which results in low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level..

lebron simply avoided the same career-losing fate as his fellow ball-dominators by team-hopping for the extra talent the style needs to win




Wow that is actually a good point. Ain't gonna lie. :lol

[DoctorP]

3Ball owning this thread

I am pleased.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/qrURsXtrfKGek/giphy.gif

[3ball]

Wow that is actually a good point. Ain't gonna lie. :lol


appreciate that - and notice that Lebron is the only or first player with a running narrative for his whole career that he "needs" shooters around him.

I've never heard such a consistent narrative about any other player, although Luka will probably get that narrative (he's another forward-turned-PG who had low-assist, 2-PG lineups alongside Dennis Smith jr).

And obviously, this need for shooters results from a hole in their game - they're only great at getting stats with a "live"/existing dribble, thus making teammates play off-ball, i.e. spot-up shooters.. They lack the ability to play off-ball themselves, which means getting their stats off-the-catch/without a live dribble, i.e. they aren't good at catch-and-shoot (Lebron) or post/triple-threat footwork (Luka, Lebron)..

This off-ball skill deficit forces teams to keep Lebron/Luka on-ball in order to get the most out of them - if you let say, a young Ingram or Pippen maximize their production/growth with some on-ball play, Luka/Lebron disappear off-ball and the team can't maximize their best player.. It's a big problem because ultimately, Luka and Lebron turn a normally high-assisted position (forward) into a low-assisted one (PG), thus lowering the assist capacity of the team - teams must sacrifice ball movement/team assists (and some teammates get marginalized) so Luka/Lebron can maximize their production.. That's literally what happens on their teams, yet people wonder why Lebron is 3/9 on the championship level, and gets blown away by record amount by teams with better ball movement/brand and teammate maximization.

Otoh, players like Kobe, Kawhi, MJ, and Durant have more complete skillsets because they're great on-ball and off-ball.. They don't need the ball in their hands at a point guard level to get elite stats - they can play off-ball a fair amount and let teammates maximize their stats and the team's brand - they simply get more out of teammates, which is why Kobe won with a Bosh-level player at 2nd option, and Lebron needed Bosh/Love at 3rd option and a kobe-like perimeter stud at 2nd option to win.. The ball-dominant style clearly needs more talent to offset the lesser ball movement/brand of ball..

So again - ultimately, Lebron's style turns teammates into spot-up shooters, which doesn't develop players and results in a brand that struggles on the championship level - Lebron simply avoided the career-losing fate of his fellow ball-dominators by team-hopping for the extra talent this suboptimal style needs to win..

[RRR3]

You must not read your own posts.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[knicksman]

Jordan is one of the greatest iso players. And off ball players are harder to defend than on ball. Now if the greatest iso player plays off-ball, what do you think will happen? 6 rings. Kobe also 5. Thats the difference between bron and jordan. Bron isnt a great iso scorer then refuses to play off ball thus shrinking in the clutch and could only win with superteams. Jordan is willing to sacrifice stats to play team ball and make him more unstoppable while bron is a stats first win second guy. He will never play off ball to sacrifice stats coz he doesnt believe in his skills to deliver a ring.