I kinda feel for the Chris Webber and Paul Pierce types.

[Kblaze8855]

Guys who never have the career to match their individual ability but have to deal with 50 years of knowing that on the same floor....whoever you put against them was pretty close to their equal. Obviously guys like Duncan/KG/Dirk and Kobe/Lebron/Wade are on another level career wise but in everyones day....


You turn on a Celtic/Laker game Pierce and Kobe arent THAT far apart. Either might have 40. Both with shit teams:


https://youtu.be/p8OrL1264_A


Both have about 40. Pierce and Kobe both had chances to win it. Celtics won. Or the game 7 vs the Cavs when he gave Lebron 40 to win.

You know to a guy like Pierce that kinda thing stands out. On the same floor there is no career...just ball. And superstars in the same league are rarely as separated as history thinks when they elevate 2-3 guys and pretend nobody else existed.






They had one of the phenoms. A player of the future. THe new breed. Guy who could do whatever.

Webber is the odd man out in the all time power forward talk but you can hear how it eats at him when he talks his place in history. "Dirk, Tim, and KG know me real well..." is how he put it on NBA tv once. And I get it. He could do whatever he wanted.



Faceup and drive:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MasculineBraveBasenji-size_restricted.gif












Takeover with jumpers.



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AstonishingGrizzledDolphin-size_restricted.gif














Let the team play through him and use his passing to find cutters:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DownrightCloudyAmericanmarten-size_restricted.gif







Not be setup at all. He could just bring it up and run what he wanted.....



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DownrightForsakenBadger-size_restricted.gif













Could give you the jump hook. One of the all time GOAT bigman athletes. Led the league in rebounds. Do it all guy. Came close to the 2 steals and 2 blocks a game mark at one point.

You know he looks at those all time lists and imagines all the guys who wouldnt actually be better than him playing on the floor together.

Duncans better than Webber....but at the time you turn on a Kings/Spurs game you arent expecting Webber to get his ass kicked. Just....a great matchup that was usually pretty close. Same for his matchups with the other top bigs.

But between injury, bad luck, ****ups, and so on....hes just never gonna be put on or even near their level. HEs not even in the best PF talk.

You get Duncan, KG, Malone, Dirk, Barkley and a mention of Mchale with someone giving Pettit and Hayes an honorary mention. All of them in their primes play a full season in the same league....Webber would be right in the mix. Just like David Robinson. With Hakeem, Shaq, Russell, Kareem, Moses, Wilt or whoever you wanna call the GOAT 5....on the same floor with Davis Robinson there wouldnt be THAT much difference. We remember he and Hakeem one way due to highlights and that series but in the early 90s people would have put Robinson over Hakeem. I wouldnt have....but I think most would. Plenty talked shit on Shaq and how he wasnt David or Hakeem at the time. Nobody would just look on a whole other level to Drob in the same league/game.....

But history says what it says because history isnt "How good was he though...." its a much more complicated question involving legacy and talking points and all.

You put first 3 years Orlando Tmac on the court with Heat Lebron it wouldnt be like.....two totally different levels of basketball being played. And it must suck to be the other guy....



Except for the money. The money would help. Speaking of which....ive been trying to decide something about one of these guys.....

[Kblaze8855]

Chris Webbers rookie deal....dumbest contract ever given out?


It was a 15 year 74 million dollar deal.

Sounds great for a sure thing superstar right?

Well....

They had the bright idea of giving him a player option after year 1 to become a restricted FA.

Turned out he had beef with Don Nelson(who did his best to seem like the good guy...and he did). He opted out and signed a one year deal with the Warriors which made him unrestricted the following summer. He told them he wouldnt play for Nelson. They kept Nelson...traded him.

So they lost their Zion type prospect after one year. Granted they got Googs and 3 picks which if they were better drafters would have made them great. They got a #5 pick which was Mike Miller, a #11 that was Todd Fuller instead of Kobe, Nash, Jermaine Oneal, or Peja and a #5 which was Vince who they traded for Jamison. They could have kept Vince or taken Dirk or Pierce instead. They could have had Kobe and Dirk.....


Still. Stupid contract. 15 year deal with a player option after year 1? They deserved to get burned.

Don seemed like a victim though....




Not often does a contending team trade the rookie of the year, but the Webber-Nelson rift had reached an irreparable stage.

According to Chris Cohan, Golden State's owner, Webber had asked that Nelson be removed as head coach.

"I rejected that," Cohan said at a news conference tonight at Oakland Coliseum before the Warriors' 109-100 victory over the Knicks. "I want Don to stay. I was told over and over again that if Don stays, we've got a problem with Chris. The lines got drawn in the sand, and I didn't think it could be repaired."

Webber was en route to Washington tonight and could not be reached for comment.

But Nelson said: "Chris gave us a number of teams that he would be willing to play for and the Bullets were one of them. We called all the teams today, and we made the best deal we could.

"This is not a happy day for us," added the coach, who received a standing ovation from the home crowd when the Warriors appeared for tonight's game. "We were trying to build a championship team, and Chris Webber was to be a part of it. I'm not exactly sure what I've done in the past that has made Chris so angry that he does not want to play for me. It's my job to win basketball games, and to get my players to understand that to be champions, I've got to drive them."

Nelson said last week that he would be willing to resign as coach if it would convince Webber to end his holdout -- a suggestion that Webber called a Nelson ploy to gain sympathy with Warrior fans.

"I never, ever said a bad word about Chris, nor will I ever," said Nelson. "The only thing wrong with Chris Webber is that he came out of college early, and he's young. We had a couple of incidents early in the season and he told me that he would prefer I not handle him that way. I thought I was very soft with him."

Webber was kinda being a ho.....but its their fault. Give a guy a player option after ONE season you get burned.

[Stephonit]

Webber was kinda being a ho.....but its their fault. Give a guy a player option after ONE season you get burned.

I don't get this. Did Webber have to exercise his option or lose it?

[Kblaze8855]

As I understand it the following season was gonna be a no cap year for reasons that dont really matter now. He was being underpaid for one year but had near record money long term. That 74 million was I think(THINK) the second biggest deal ever at the time after Larry Johnsons 84 million. I guess they figured hed just shut up and take the deal and wouldnt risk that long term money. I think he had an out after years one and like....5 maybe?

Id have to look into it more. I feel like he had 2 out years at his disposal.

[HoopologyPhD]

The only difference between me and a few more famous ISH posters is a thousand or so extra garbage posts, I too can be a ISH HOFer!

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pierce showed out in the game you linked.

Same with Kobe.

To be fair tho, Kobe's team is probably one of the worst of all time. Even with Odom. Kwame Brown and Smush Parker starting? Wake me up.

I hear you on your overall point.

CWebb was nice in the early 2000s. He's not lying about matching up with his peers. CWebb was KG-like from midrange and could handle the rock. With Vlade, Sac had the best passing frontcourt. Around 2001-2002, there wasn't much separating Webb, Duncan and KG. Especially Dirk who torched Garnett in one of their H2H playoff series. CWebb was ALWAYS in that convo though. He'd be looked at different if not for the 2002 debacle.

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah Kobe went in too. All those guys would have great matchups. You had no idea who would play the best....on the floor. But 30 years later they won’t even be viewed as close.

Difference between the Kobe/Lebron/Wade level and probably a half dozen guys considered on the next level or two of swing man isn’t that great on the same court together.

Same with the top 4s and the Webber’s and Michael types below. Ewing is too 40-60 to most but in peak form he could play with anyone. Just saying it’s probably frustrating to be the guy nobody cares about who remembers going toe to toe with guys considered entire tiers ahead of you.

[stalkerforlife]

Didn't know Webber did Don like that.

Yikes.

Maybe that's why he never won.

[brooks_thompson]

This is why I hate the obsession with rankings...top 5, top 20, top 15-100. People agonize over trying to separate these players, especially now with advanced stats...it

[Haymaker]

Webber was as talented as any PF in history but what he really lacked was the drive to score in crunch time and close a game. His injuries didn't help, He had his best chances to win it all at the end of his career but his bum knees prevented him to pull it off in close games (with the refs against his team).

[ClipperRevival]

One of the greatest travesties in the NBA is Weber not being a HOFer. Dude was legit one of the best player in the game for a stretch and was "the man" on a lot of great teams. I honestly have no idea how this guy wasn't 1st ballot.

[Kblaze8855]

One of the greatest travesties in the NBA is Weber not being a HOFer. Dude was legit one of the best player in the game for a stretch and was "the man" on a lot of great teams. I honestly have no idea how this guy wasn't 1st ballot.


This year coming its Duncan, Kobe, and KG as the locks.....with Bosh and Webber also up. Maybe they dont add Webber yet but I feel its unlikely they give Bosh the spot before him.

[ralph_i_el]

I feel the same about this. These all-time greats aren't invincible. Lots of guys could give them trouble.

[TheMan]

I agree with OP, Webber was legit at his peak...often overlooked, should be a HOFer.

[tontoz]

Pierce gets underrated because he wasn't an elite athlete but he did have elite skills/IQ/clutchness. I think his place in history is pretty secure.

Webber.....eh. I thought he settled for jumpers too often, especially after his injury. His career TS of 51% is pretty weak for a 4.

[PP34Deuce]

Paul didnt have that extra gear that tmac Kobe Vince all had. He was great and the best guy to model your game after.

Webber's injuries turned him. He was an elite athlete with ideal size as a PF. He could do anything and played good defense when he was forced to.

Webber is like the grant hill of PFs. New breed came early

[Kblaze8855]

Antione Walker on why Pierce comes off the way he does(as a hater):




“Me knowing Paul’s competitive drive, Paul doesn’t believe LeBron’s that much better than him. And I do believe that. I remember him commenting about [Dwyane] Wade and people got mad because of what Paul said about D-Wade. Paul believes that he’s in that category. For whatever reason he doesn’t get that notoriety that those guys get. He’s not celebrated like those guys. He is that guy.”

[Shogon]

Right, he's delusional. We already knew, lol.

The ironic part about that, however, is that you have to be delusional to reach your own personal potential... and if it works, you look amazing, if it doesn't, you can often come off as a clown. Go figure.

[pandiani17]

Antione Walker on why Pierce comes off the way he does(as a hater):




“Me knowing Paul’s competitive drive, Paul doesn’t believe LeBron’s that much better than him. And I do believe that. I remember him commenting about [Dwyane] Wade and people got mad because of what Paul said about D-Wade. Paul believes that he’s in that category. For whatever reason he doesn’t get that notoriety that those guys get. He’s not celebrated like those guys. He is that guy.”

Yeah, PP is top 3 all-time in scoring and top 10 all-time in assists along with having more than 8,000 rebounds, 4 MVP's, etc. He's talking non-sense, and Antoine Walker is also dumb for supporting that claim. He was super-talented, yes, but as PP34Deuce said he was a notch below Kobe, T-Mac, AI or Vince. In fact, he was never close to winning a Regular Season MVP and I think he was never even on a 1st All-NBA. We're talking about different levels here.

However, I agree with most of the posters here that Webber is not that far off from the best PF of all-time conversation. He was a phenomenal player, could do it all, incredible court vision, very fun to watch. If he had won the MVP in 2001, played consistently like that troughout his career or won a ring in 2002 his name would probably be in the same breath as Duncan, KG or Dirk.

[rawimpact]

That's because paul pierce didn't do shit before the big 3. He literally had three seasons with more than 40 wins before 08.

Wade had a history before their big 3
Kobe's legacy is well... well known
Lebron as well (not as successful but when you make that many playoff appearances you get recognized)

[tontoz]

Pierce was kicking ass for years but he just didnt have much help. He gets underrated because he wasn't a run and jump athlete but he had great skills and was very clutch.

[ralph_i_el]

That's because paul pierce didn't do shit before the big 3. He literally had three seasons with more than 40 wins before 08.

Wade had a history before their big 3
Kobe's legacy is well... well known
Lebron as well (not as successful but when you make that many playoff appearances you get recognized)

He led a team to the ECF...

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Paul Pierce won finals MVP and there's a chunk of better players who didn't do that, so I don't really feel sorry for him.

Webber was an amazing player in 2002 but fell short to a dynasty. By 2004, he was already running around like a grandpa because his knee issues. Plus his timeout college thing. I actually do kind of fell sorry for him.

[Smoke117]

Antione Walker on why Pierce comes off the way he does(as a hater):




“Me knowing Paul’s competitive drive, Paul doesn’t believe LeBron’s that much better than him. And I do believe that. I remember him commenting about [Dwyane] Wade and people got mad because of what Paul said about D-Wade. Paul believes that he’s in that category. For whatever reason he doesn’t get that notoriety that those guys get. He’s not celebrated like those guys. He is that guy.”

lol Yeah, he's really not. A guy like Wade was clearly on another tier. Pierce has never had that ability to carry a team the way Wade did in those two seasons before LeBron arrived. That's what keeps him in that Ray Allen, Clyde Drexler, Vince Carter etc tier and not up there with the elite/elite.

And lol at Webber could do whatever he want...yeah...except be efficient. The definition of a high volume scorer. He pretty much had nothing in the post, but an ugly little hook shot. You going on about "killing you with his jumper" is funny as it was nothing ever special. It certainly wasn't automatic or anything. Great all around player, but he never should have been allowed to shoot as much as he did. He's rightfully not talked about like Duncan, KG, and Dirk as he wasn't close to any of the three's level.

[SouBeachTalents]

How about Bob McAdoo, who was playing peak Kareem to a standstill consistently throughout the mid to late 70's. Here's a good chunk of their h2h's

1974
Kareem: 31/21/5 on 57%
McAdoo: 32/8/1 on 65%

Kareem: 38/11/2 on 63%
McAdoo: 36/9/3 on 65%

1975
Kareem: 36/12/7/6 on 62%
McAdoo: 37/7/2/3 on 42%

Kareem: 34/18/4 on 57%
McAdoo: 38/13/1 on 52%

Kareem: 27/13/0
McAdoo: 33/10/4

1976
Kareem: 35/16/6/3/3 on 60%
McAdoo: 38/12/4/4 on 48%

Kareem: 18/24/6/5 on 50%
McAdoo: 36/15/2 on 33%

Kareem: 20/22/10/5 on 31%
McAdoo: 41/15/4 on 44%

1977
Kareem: 37/21/2 on 71%
McAdoo: 34/22/5 on 54%

Kareem: 22/6/2 on 44%
McAdoo: 28/17/7 on 61%

Kareem: 20/11/6/3 on 53%
McAdoo: 38/7/6/3 on 71%

[tpols]

lol Yeah, he's really not. A guy like Wade was clearly on another tier. Pierce has never had that ability to carry a team the way Wade did in those two seasons before LeBron arrived. That's what keeps him in that Ray Allen, Clyde Drexler, Vince Carter etc tier and not up there with the elite/elite.

And lol at Webber could do whatever he want...yeah...except be efficient. The definition of a high volume scorer. He pretty much had nothing in the post, but an ugly little hook shot. You going on about "killing you with his jumper" is funny as it was nothing ever special. It certainly wasn't automatic or anything. Great all around player, but he never should have been allowed to shoot as much as he did. He's rightfully not talked about like Duncan, KG, and Dirk as he wasn't close to any of the three's level.

pierce used to carry the celtics to the playoffs just like wade did in the early 2000s what are you smoking.

And unlike Wade, his teams weren't first round exits every year.

[ralph_i_el]

Pierce dragged a shitty squad to the ECF his first playoff run. As soon as he got another all-nba player on his team they won a ring and went to another finals. Wtf.

Pierce is on Wade's level in my mind. Especially when it comes to getting tough playoff buckets.

[tpols]

Pierce dragged a shitty squad to the ECF his first playoff run. As soon as he got another all-nba player on his team they won a ring and went to another finals. Wtf.

Pierce is on Wade's level in my mind. Especially when it comes to getting tough playoff buckets.

Yup... antoine walker sucked. negative splits every year.

[Smoke117]

Pierce dragged a shitty squad to the ECF his first playoff run. As soon as he got another all-nba player on his team they won a ring and went to another finals. Wtf.

Pierce is on Wade's level in my mind. Especially when it comes to getting tough playoff buckets.

The east has literally never been worse than what it was in the early 2000s. You replace Pierce with Wade and the Celtics get significantly better in every instance. A prime Wade just plain has a significantly higher impact.

[Kblaze8855]

lol Yeah, he's really not. A guy like Wade was clearly on another tier. Pierce has never had that ability to carry a team the way Wade did in those two seasons before LeBron arrived. That's what keeps him in that Ray Allen, Clyde Drexler, Vince Carter etc tier and not up there with the elite/elite.

And lol at Webber could do whatever he want...yeah...except be efficient. The definition of a high volume scorer. He pretty much had nothing in the post, but an ugly little hook shot. You going on about "killing you with his jumper" is funny as it was nothing ever special. It certainly wasn't automatic or anything. Great all around player, but he never should have been allowed to shoot as much as he did. He's rightfully not talked about like Duncan, KG, and Dirk as he wasn't close to any of the three's level.

Except when they were on the same floor.

Him not being close is a “Looking back” thing. Webber plays any of them at his peak nobody thinks he’s out of his league. Webber or whoever was a perfectly valid question until years after they were actually playing each other. Before that last bad injury that turned him pure 18 foot shooter he was an equal matchup with almost everyone to ever play the 4.

Doesnt mean I’d take him over Duncan or Kg or whoever....but that’s a fair matchup on the court.


Not like it’s those guys vs someone who has to be on fire to match them. Normal Webber is gonna compete with anyone’s else’s normal.

[Kblaze8855]

Yup... antoine walker sucked. negative splits every year.

Everything hot and cold with you....

[warriorfan]

Pierce dragged a shitty squad to the ECF his first playoff run. As soon as he got another all-nba player on his team they won a ring and went to another finals. Wtf.

Pierce is on Wade's level in my mind. Especially when it comes to getting tough playoff buckets.

Pierce is up there for sure. The way he always gets to his spots right around the top of the key, then it’s automatic from there. He was entertaining to watch play. Super clutch.

[tpols]

Everything hot and cold with you....

i mean do you think he was good? He shot atrociously in the playoffs, while Pierce's overall production was higher, the defensive attention he demanded greater, and always a big plus in the metrics. Shaq didn't call him the truth for no reason.

[Kblaze8855]

Do I think he was good? He was an all star and later a key player on a champion. I don’t think bad at basketball is the same thing as having bad shooting percentages.

I argued against him being top(I think) 20...with Johnny sic and other Celtic fans on here around 01 but the distance between being a low end all star which I acknowledged he was and not being good is....vast.

He didn’t shoot well. The people who did from 98-05 are few. But he could play.

He was that teams leader according to everyone except ppg counters. I’m pretty sure Paul Pierce said so himself at the time. I laughed at him taking more threes than he got rebounds but that team looked to him for quite a lot that shooting numbers don’t show. Pierce was obviously better than Antione. But Antione being the leader was pretty commonly accepted at the time. Hard to quantify it and I myself would and did dismiss it in an individual evaluation....but that was about if he was elite. Not about if he was good at all.

[BigtimeNBAFan]

pierce used to carry the celtics to the playoffs just like wade did in the early 2000s what are you smoking.

And unlike Wade, his teams weren't first round exits every year.

Except he didn't. He missed the playoffs more than he made them before the Big 3 era and had 6 losing seasons in 9 years. And as far as carrying a team. He literally had another all star on his team who scored 20+ ppg. Paul Pierce has never once made it out of the first round without another all star on his team.

[BigtimeNBAFan]

i mean do you think he was good? He shot atrociously in the playoffs, while Pierce's overall production was higher, the defensive attention he demanded greater, and always a big plus in the metrics. Shaq didn't call him the truth for no reason.

Antoine Walker was a pretty good running mate during their 2002 run. Was he flawed? Sure, but so was Pierce. During the 2002 playoff run, Paul Pierce averaged 24.6 pts on 40% shooting. Walker averaged 22.1 ppg on a higher FG%. I'm not saying Walker was the better player, but people who say Pierce "carried Boston to the ECF" are just wrong. Walker was a solid player and an all star that year. Walker was also an all star the next year when Boston upset Indiana in the playoffs and played well in that series.

[ralph_i_el]

https://i.ibb.co/kJb2QGX/Screenshot-20200909-175119.png (https://ibb.co/W08vgHf) ]

I know numbers aren't the whole picture...but those are the on/off numbers for the Celtics ECF run. Obviously context is key, but...


Edit: also, to be fair, Pierce was -10 the next year and Toine was +10 lol

[tpols]

Antoine Walker was a pretty good running mate during their 2002 run. Was he flawed? Sure, but so was Pierce. During the 2002 playoff run, Paul Pierce averaged 24.6 pts on 40% shooting. Walker averaged 22.1 ppg on a higher FG%. I'm not saying Walker was the better player, but people who say Pierce "carried Boston to the ECF" are just wrong. Walker was a solid player and an all star that year. Walker was also an all star the next year when Boston upset Indiana in the playoffs and played well in that series.

That doesn't mean jack when he couldn't get to the line like Pierce. Paul was +6 in the splits 103 ORTG. Walker was sporting a -1 at 97 ORTG. You can't possibly be giving "all star" impact when you're individual production is in the negative. So it is absolutely true that Pierce was carrying those teams and that the help was nothing special.

In the run after that in 2003, Walker put up an 89 ORTG and -12 overall which is beyond bad. While Pierce was at 107 ORTG and +8. Sorry but no... Antoine Walker was absolutely not "all star" help. Individually, he was a net negative on the floor. To put it in perspective that's worse efficiency and production than todays westbrook whose been throwing the series away for Houston.

You aren't an all star if you cant play like one when it matters.

[tpols]

And I watched all this shit too... always knew toine was nothing special and Pierce was the truth. The numbers I literally just looked up today, and what do you know it perfectly matches what my perception was.

[MaxPlayer]

Walker was a frustrating player to watch. Very strong and skilled, but was content to just jack up a bunch of bad 3's.

[Norcaliblunt]

It’s debatable whether Weber was ever better than Amare, Gasol, Randolph, or Rasheed let alone Duncan, KG, and Dirk. Yeah on any given night any all star can be the best player on the floor, but it’s career consistency and durability that separates these dudes. It’s a marathon not a sprint.

[Roundball_Rock]

He peaked at 3rd in the league in PPG. I thought PPG huggers would like Walker?

:lol at the playoff efficiency argument for PP over Walker. Before the hand-checking rule change, Pierce shot 39% in the playoffs (including one year at 34%, albeit a 4 game PO "run") versus 41% for Walker. In eFG% it was 46% for Walker, 44% for Pierce.

Paul Pierce shot 42% for PO career (Walker was 41%) and 42% in the PO during the time he was an all-star (02' to 12').


Yet we are seeing efficiency as an argument for PP?


You can't possibly be giving "all star" impact when you're individual production is in the negative

:facepalm That means he wasn't a negative in the real world. Only idiots 20 years later are arguing he wasn't a real all-star. In the real world he made 3 all-star teams in 6 years.

[tontoz]

Toine had a great quote when he was asked why he shot so many 3s:"because there are no 4s".

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah on any given night any all star can be the best player on the floor, but it’s career consistency and durability that separates these dudes. It’s a marathon not a sprin


Its a basketball game not a career recap. How good you are is not a question of how you look across 19 years. Longevity is not a basketball skill. It’s a career ranking factor obviously but how good you are at 36 has nothing to do with how good you and another guy are in your primes. And there’s little reason to consider anything else. You ask me how good Joe Johnson was I’m not talking about when he was on the Celtics or the Jazz.

[Norcaliblunt]

Its a basketball game not a career recap. How good you are is not a question of how you look across 19 years. Longevity is not a basketball skill. It’s a career ranking factor obviously but how good you are at 36 has nothing to do with how good you and another guy are in your primes. And there’s little reason to consider anything else. You ask me how good Joe Johnson was I’m not talking about when he was on the Celtics or the Jazz.

Yeah I understand what you are saying, peak for peak, but that is still more than one basketball game. It’s takes many games to even be able to properly assess a players skills or prime. Therefore durability and consistency come into play when evaluating them. Especially at this level when everyone has talent and can go off on any given night. It’s the only thing that separates some players.

[oldtimer28]

Webber and Pierce now punish us with their commentary. Unlistenable

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah I understand what you are saying, peak for peak, but that is still more than one basketball game. It’s takes many games to even be able to properly assess a players skills or prime. Therefore durability and consistency come into play when evaluating them. Especially at this level when everyone has talent and can go off on any given night. It’s the only thing that separates some players.


Yeah I understand what you are saying, peak for peak, but that is still more than one basketball game. It’s takes many games to even be able to properly assess a players skills or prime. Therefore durability and consistency come into play when evaluating them. Especially at this level when everyone has talent and can go off on any given night. It’s the only thing that separates some players.


If its the only thing that separates two players....the separation is manufactured to avoid a sports fans greatest fear when questioned....not having an answer at all. Its a hot take society. Radio...tv...whatever. You are asked to compare ___ vs ____ you pick one. In the cases you reference where there is no good reason to say one is better than the other you might get all kinds of non game reasons thrown in to justify a pick thats usually just a personal preference.

The answer to which of these two players is better can be altered by a huge number of things beyond skill. Their respective coaches, teammates, luck, injuries, and era. None of which is an aspect of basketball.

When we factor in durability to break up two otherwise equal players it makes sense when the question is greater career. You cant accomplish things if you arent playing. But who is better? It has no real place for one good reason....

Nobody is asking if ____ is better than _____ when hes not himself.

Who is honestly trying to compare someone healthy to a guy recovering from a back issue and cant jump without pain? Of course youre better than _____ with a foot injury. He cant run. We arguing over that? The question is obviously....at full capacity who is better. Arguing a healthy person vs a cripple is just a waste of time. A thousand healthy prime players are better than some old broken down star coming off a bench. But that has never been the question.

If youre arguing Paul Pierce vs Tmac and your point is what tmac was doing in 2011.....why? Did the Tracy Mcgrady people mean when they say "Tmac" even exist in 2011? No. So why bring him up? Is Michael Jordan on the Wizards the real Michael Jordan? Being the same human doesnt make you the same player.

The player in question is always their real version. Nobody is asking if 84 Bird is better than 02 Jordan. A bird/Jordan discussion is about the real Bird vs the real Jordan. Not no back, laying on the floor, pudgy Bird vs 91 Jordan and not no lift Wizards MJ shooting 40% vs 86 Bird.

Im not talking about Paul Pierce on the Wizards or Wade on the Bulls and nobody else is either. Wade is the real Wade and Pierce is the real Pierce in any comparison.

How long they stayed those players is a career matter. It doesnt help either of them go play a game in their true form. And what other form even matters?

[dankok8]

Kblaze makes a really good point. Problem is that having peak for peak debates is fun but there is probably no right answer. It's really subjective. For example I could say that Dwyane Wade in the 2006 playoffs played better than any player ever did in history. And you can't even tell me that I'm wrong. Obviously Wade is not the GOAT or anywhere close but someone could say that at his peak (whether that is one day or one series or a few series) he was the best player in the history of basketball.

[Kblaze8855]

You can't possibly be giving "all star" impact when you're individual production is in the negative.

There is no such thing as negative individual production.

You can have a bad game. Your team doesnt literally lose points because of your on/off or random advanced stats. Especially guys playing the insane minutes they did. I dont even need to be shown the splits of a guy playing 45 minutes. There are series from those years he and Paul played 46 and 44 minutes a game each. We out here counting up the 42 seconds of gatorade sipping before standing at the table waiting to come back in as a real evaluation of the teams play without one or the other?


So it is absolutely true that Pierce was carrying those teams and that the help was nothing special.


Antione Walker was at times the highest scoring #2 in the NBA other than Kobe.

The entire era shot like shit relative to worse defensive eras but fact is Antione was more help than most had especially considering his ability to handle the ball and make plays for teams that were weak at guard.

Pierce had Antione. VC had Mo Pete. AI had Aaron Mckie. Stackhouse had...Chucky Atkins? Tmac had....who is even worth typing?

Pierce and Ray Allen having Antione and Glenn was a serious advantage compared to most star wings.

Those were the one man army years. But Pierce and Ray had two man armies at least. Hell Ray had 3.

They were the lucky ones.

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze makes a really good point. Problem is that having peak for peak debates is fun but there is probably no right answer. It's really subjective. For example I could say that Dwyane Wade in the 2006 playoffs played better than any player ever did in history. And you can't even tell me that I'm wrong. Obviously Wade is not the GOAT or anywhere close but someone could say that at his peak (whether that is one day or one series or a few series) he was the best player in the history of basketball.

I can absolutely say youre wrong because people have done equally amazing shit. Where we go from there is what makes people hate these things.....into the subjective. But the subjective is where the answers always are. Ring count cant be argued. But it isnt basketball. Im not afraid to say a question has no factual answer. The stupid questions might. Like if Jordan is better than Greg Osterteg. There is an answer. The question of Jordan vs Kareem has no factual answer anyone can prove. Once you accept that you cant truly "know" the answers to some questions(only think youre right) you dont need the manufactured tiebreakers.

[dankok8]

I can absolutely say youre wrong because people have done equally amazing shit. Where we go from there is what makes people hate these things.....into the subjective. But the subjective is where the answers always are. Ring count cant be argued. But it isnt basketball. Im not afraid to say a question has no factual answer. The stupid questions might. Like if Jordan is better than Greg Osterteg. There is an answer. The question of Jordan vs Kareem has no factual answer anyone can prove. Once you accept that you cant truly "know" the answers to some questions(only think youre right) you dont need the manufactured tiebreakers.

Well said. I totally agree with you. That's basically what I said... Debates concerning peaks don't have a factual answer in reasonable comparisons.

[3ball]

Webber was a do-it-all 1st option that basically beat the Shaq/Kobe Lakers.

The refs did rob him but that's all history now.. if he"d won that year, he has a good chance at FMVP

Regardless, Webber > Pippen... Superior talent, superior athlete, and better shooter/scorer/post player/leader.. Pippen was Ewing's b.itch, while Webber was Shaq/Kobe's rival

[Norcaliblunt]

If its the only thing that separates two players....the separation is manufactured to avoid a sports fans greatest fear when questioned....not having an answer at all. Its a hot take society. Radio...tv...whatever. You are asked to compare ___ vs ____ you pick one. In the cases you reference where there is no good reason to say one is better than the other you might get all kinds of non game reasons thrown in to justify a pick thats usually just a personal preference.

The answer to which of these two players is better can be altered by a huge number of things beyond skill. Their respective coaches, teammates, luck, injuries, and era. None of which is an aspect of basketball.

When we factor in durability to break up two otherwise equal players it makes sense when the question is greater career. You cant accomplish things if you arent playing. But who is better? It has no real place for one good reason....

Nobody is asking if ____ is better than _____ when hes not himself.

Who is honestly trying to compare someone healthy to a guy recovering from a back issue and cant jump without pain? Of course youre better than _____ with a foot injury. He cant run. We arguing over that? The question is obviously....at full capacity who is better. Arguing a healthy person vs a cripple is just a waste of time. A thousand healthy prime players are better than some old broken down star coming off a bench. But that has never been the question.

If youre arguing Paul Pierce vs Tmac and your point is what tmac was doing in 2011.....why? Did the Tracy Mcgrady people mean when they say "Tmac" even exist in 2011? No. So why bring him up? Is Michael Jordan on the Wizards the real Michael Jordan? Being the same human doesnt make you the same player.

The player in question is always their real version. Nobody is asking if 84 Bird is better than 02 Jordan. A bird/Jordan discussion is about the real Bird vs the real Jordan. Not no back, laying on the floor, pudgy Bird vs 91 Jordan and not no lift Wizards MJ shooting 40% vs 86 Bird.

Im not talking about Paul Pierce on the Wizards or Wade on the Bulls and nobody else is either. Wade is the real Wade and Pierce is the real Pierce in any comparison.

How long they stayed those players is a career matter. It doesnt help either of them go play a game in their true form. And what other form even matters?


It’s the reason why playing a series decides who wins the championship and not one single game. Any team can win one game against another team, they all have that kind of basketball talent, but to endure and win multiple games decides who’s the real champion.

I totally understand your point though, and personally believe all time player ranking debates are futile in a team sport. We’d need one on one games for that.

[ImKobe]

Webber was a do-it-all 1st option that basically beat the Shaq/Kobe Lakers.

The refs did rob him but that's all history now.. if he"d won that year, he has a good chance at FMVP

Regardless, Webber > Pippen... Superior talent, superior athlete, and better shooter/scorer/post player/leader.. Pippen was Ewing's b.itch, while Webber was Shaq/Kobe's rival

He's the one who left Horry wide open from 3 to save the Lakers from going down 1 - 3, he's the one who looked like a deer in the headlights in Game 7 with 4 points on 2/9 shooting in 4th + OT. Kings had Game 7 at home and wet the bed in crunch time. Peja airballed a wide open corner 3 to win the game for christ sakes. They shot 16/30 from the FT line :wtf: to Lakers' 27/33 in that game. They likely win if they don't choke from the line. Refs even helped them by calling a bogus foul on Kobe to get the game into OT & they still lost. I don't care what people say about Game 6, the refs couldn't stop them from making open shots/FTs in these games, Lakers deserved that series win. The Queens choked.

[warriorfan]

He peaked at 3rd in the league in PPG. I thought PPG huggers would like Walker?

:lol at the playoff efficiency argument for PP over Walker. Before the hand-checking rule change, Pierce shot 39% in the playoffs (including one year at 34%, albeit a 4 game PO "run") versus 41% for Walker. In eFG% it was 46% for Walker, 44% for Pierce.

Paul Pierce shot 42% for PO career (Walker was 41%) and 42% in the PO during the time he was an all-star (02' to 12').


Yet we are seeing efficiency as an argument for PP?



:facepalm That means he wasn't a negative in the real world. Only idiots 20 years later are arguing he wasn't a real all-star. In the real world he made 3 all-star teams in 6 years.

Pierce averaged about 54 or 55 percent TS during his pre big 3 playoff runs

https://i.postimg.cc/QCyk56th/F6763878-0-C30-469-D-B3-F0-3-B0-B8584-C60-F.jpg

For frame of reference LeBron James career playoff TS is 58 percent, and that’s with him playing 95% of his career in the non handcheck era....Pierces pre big 3 stats were all put up in the tougher defensive environment during the hand check era before the rule changes. Pierces TS is well in line with league averages at the time.



In summary. Paul Pierce’s playoff efficiency is in the same ballpark as Lebrons.

[Stanley Kobrick]

He peaked at 3rd in the league in PPG. I thought PPG huggers would like Walker?

:lol at the playoff efficiency argument for PP over Walker. Before the hand-checking rule change, Pierce shot 39% in the playoffs (including one year at 34%, albeit a 4 game PO "run") versus 41% for Walker. In eFG% it was 46% for Walker, 44% for Pierce.

Paul Pierce shot 42% for PO career (Walker was 41%) and 42% in the PO during the time he was an all-star (02' to 12').


Yet we are seeing efficiency as an argument for PP?



:facepalm That means he wasn't a negative in the real world. Only idiots 20 years later are arguing he wasn't a real all-star. In the real world he made 3 all-star teams in 6 years.

very well said, high iq post

[dreamwarrior]

It's all marketing. Kevin Garnett never had superstar numbers but the league pushed him to be a superstar. They didn't even try to do that with Pierce or Webber.

[Duranthebest]

Kblaze still making dumb threads and posts I see. Keep Pierce’s name out of your mouth clown.

[Lebron23]

Kblaze still making dumb threads and posts I see. Keep Pierce’s name out of your mouth clown.

Spuddjjay????

[Reggie43]

How easily people forget that Pierce was known as a grade A shotjacker until Garnett changed his reputation. Not really as good as his numbers suggest, very selfish and hard headed and the funny thing is I tried to like Pierce back then.

[Kblaze8855]

Spuddjjay????


Obviously it is. What’s weird is he thinks I’m insulting Pierce somehow.

[Duranthebest]

How easily people forget that Pierce was known as a grade A shotjacker until Garnett changed his reputation. Not really as good as his numbers suggest, very selfish and hard headed and the funny thing is I tried to like Pierce back then.

Clown.

[Duranthebest]

Obviously it is. What’s weird is he thinks I’m insulting Pierce somehow.


Obviously it is. What’s weird is he thinks I’m insulting Pierce somehow.

My guy you have taken little jabs and have made back handed comments on Paul Pierce for maybe 13 plus years. Cut your crap. You have the audacity to put CWebb and Pierce in the same category.. Pierce is a 1st ballot hall of famer.. it took CWebb 5 tries to get in.

I’m sick of people knocking Paul Pierce because he didn’t play with another half of fame teammate during his prime years.

[Duranthebest]

How do you feel bad about a 1st ballot hall of famer who retired 15th on the all time scoring list? Man Shutup.

[Duranthebest]

Spuddjjay????

Bro you still here hahahah. :lol

[rawimpact]

My guy you have taken little jabs and have made back handed comments on Paul Pierce for maybe 13 plus years. Cut your crap. You have the audacity to put CWebb and Pierce in the same category.. Pierce is a 1st ballot hall of famer.. it took CWebb 5 tries to get in.

I’m sick of people knocking Paul Pierce because he didn’t play with another half of fame teammate during his prime years.

As weird as it is to be a homer, this guy does have a point...

KBlaze did group the two together despite their being a drastic difference in overall careers.

BTW F*CK SPUDJJAY (C) 2008

[Lebron23]

Bro you still here hahahah. :lol

Yes bro. Very excited for the 2021 NBA Playoffs.

[Duranthebest]

As weird as it is to be a homer, this guy does have a point...

KBlaze did group the two together despite their being a drastic difference in overall careers.

BTW F*CK SPUDJJAY (C) 2008

:roll:

[miggyme1]

Webber was great but he was a tier below KG and duncan. Those dudes played both sides of the ball....webber was a liability on defense. Pierce was great as well but he was nowhere near lebron or kobes level....just didnt have the athleticism or iconic moments (until ray and kg showed up)

[Duranthebest]

Webber was great but he was a tier below KG and duncan. Those dudes played both sides of the ball....webber was a liability on defense. Pierce was great as well but he was nowhere near lebron or kobes level....just didnt have the athleticism or iconic moments (until ray and kg showed up)

Pierce made 5 all star teams, a couple all nba teams and made the eastern conference finals before KG and Ray every came to Boston, so what the **** are you talking about?

It’s like people post shit just to post shit.

[miggyme1]

Pierce made 5 all star teams, a couple all nba teams and made the eastern conference finals before KG and Ray every came to Boston, so what the **** are you talking about?

It’s like people post shit just to post shit.

Where did i say he didnt make any all star teams?? Ill wait idiot

[Duranthebest]

Where did i say he didnt make any all star teams?? Ill wait idiot

“He didn’t have any iconic moments until KG and Ray showed up”.. he had a full career before they showed up, you fool. And he had plenty of iconic moments if you were actually watching the games before the big 3 era.

If you are gonna say something stupid like that, then KG and Ray also didn’t have any iconic moments until they joined Paul Pierce. See how stupid that sounds??

[miggyme1]

“He didn’t have any iconic moments until KG and Ray showed up”.. he had a full career before they showed up, you fool. And he had plenty of iconic moments if you were actually watching the games before the big 3 era.

If you are gonna say something stupid like that, then KG and Ray also didn’t have any iconic moments until they joined Paul Pierce. See how stupid that sounds??


Where did i say he didnt make any all star teams? Ill wait......again

[eliteballer]

Kobe and McGrady(at his best) are levels above Pierce..the hell you talking about?

[kawhileonard2]

Glad to see Webber get in. Pierce was automatic.

[Duranthebest]

I just want to reiterate how much of a shit poster KBlaze is.

Paul Pierce top 75 all time. Lol @ him and Chris Webber being the same “type” or level of player.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I just want to reiterate how much of a shit poster KBlaze is.

Paul Pierce top 75 all time. Lol @ him and Chris Webber being the same “type” or level of player.

Pierce was more durable but Webber had a higher peak. Pierce was better in the clutch but it's definitely not an insult to put him at Webber level. Webber at his peak was an MVP candidate.

[Carbine]

I'd rather have Peirce over Webber peak vs peak

[Real Men Wear Green]

I'd rather have Peirce over Webber peak vs peak

Pierce is better for closing and that's major for a playoff team but just talking about who was more of a perennial mvp candidate or was Webber.

[Kblaze8855]

Pierce and Webber were in their primes together for maybe…4 years? Webber was all nba over guys like KG and Dirk…and Paul Pierce. They’re essentially the same level of player. The type to be 6-12 in most leagues in their primes and healthy. Isn’t enough difference to argue about and nobody would have cared about them being put on the same level at the time. I remember us doing it at the time…nobody was disgusted. That isn’t a fight worth getting into.

[Clifton]

One thing about Pierce vs. Webber and the phenomenon of time passing... I don't remember Pierce and Webber *ever* being compared when they were playing. Here, in the media, anywhere.

I'm trying to think why that is, and I guess it's because in the moment, Webber was a Western Conference PF being compared to Dirk, KG, and Duncan, while Pierce was an eastern conference swingman being compared to Tmac, Kobe, etc. and those showdown games would often be on national TV.

But now it's 20 years later, and people are having Webber vs. Pierce arguments, and who knew? It's actually a really close one, in my opinion. It's almost a philosophical showdown between intangibles and longevity vs. talent and peak ability.

I would take Pierce. He was The Truth for a reason. Webber was many things, but nobody would ever think of calling him that.

[tontoz]

Webber is a hard comparison because he was really 2 different players. He just wasn't the same at 30 after that injury.

[Kblaze8855]

Webber is a hard comparison because he was really 2 different players. He just wasn't the same at 30 after that injury.


He played much of two seasons in Philly then got traded after 18 games to be a role player on the Pistons. Is that really who comes to mind when someone ask you about Chris Webber? If so, for the life of me, I can’t understand it. He went from being in the conversation got most athletic big ever to needing 4 pump fakes and having no lift. That post injury guy? He was like those last couple down Orlando years of Penny Hardaway.

You tell him to shoot enough he can get similar numbers but it’s a different guy.

[Kblaze8855]

One thing about Pierce vs. Webber and the phenomenon of time passing... I don't remember Pierce and Webber *ever* being compared when they were playing. Here, in the media, anywhere.

I'm trying to think why that is, and I guess it's because in the moment, Webber was a Western Conference PF being compared to Dirk, KG, and Duncan, while Pierce was an eastern conference swingman being compared to Tmac, Kobe, etc. and those showdown games would often be on national TV.

But now it's 20 years later, and people are having Webber vs. Pierce arguments, and who knew? It's actually a really close one, in my opinion. It's almost a philosophical showdown between intangibles and longevity vs. talent and peak ability.

I would take Pierce. He was The Truth for a reason. Webber was many things, but nobody would ever think of calling him that.


Off the top of my head in the early ish days the usual top ten would be Shaq, Duncan, KG, Kobe, and Tmac with both AI and Kidd having a strong backing to be in the top 5 and the last 3 would be a combo of Webber, Dirk, and then any number of people fighting for 10. Pierce, Vince, Ray….I even remember a Ben Wallace pick or two. But pretty much everyone from like #3 to 10 were comparable. Same floor? Not much difference. Similar to today really. Big second tier.

[tontoz]

He played much of two seasons in Philly then got traded after 18 games to be a role player on the Pistons. Is that really who comes to mind when someone ask you about Chris Webber? If so, for the life of me, I can’t understand it. He went from being in the conversation got most athletic big ever to needing 4 pump fakes and having no lift. That post injury guy? He was like those last couple down Orlando years of Penny Hardaway.

You tell him to shoot enough he can get similar numbers but it’s a different guy.


Sadly it is what comes to mind because that is when i was watching him. I didn't see him much when he was with the Kings. Pretty sure League Pass didnt even exist then.

I didn't really start watching him regularly until he came to Philly. There was a lot of hype when they got him. It quickly became clear that he just wasnt that good any more. Obviously i am aware he was far better with the Kings but i remember the Philly guy.

[RogueBorg]

If the Kings had beaten the Lakers and gone on to win the championship, we're talking about CWebb in a whole different light. Championships turn the great players into legends. How would we look at Barkley had they won the whole thing in '93? Ahead of Malone? Probably.