Dirk went from outside the top 50 to inside the top 20 in one post season?

[AussieSteve]

Just came across the SLAM 500 Greatest NBA Players of All Time (https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html), which was published during the 2010-11 resgular season.

Something leaps out at me.


55. Dirk Nowitzki


I've not seen Dirk ranked outside the top ~20 in the last 7 or 8 years.

Dirk hasn't done anything post 2011 to make any strides up the all time rankings. An All-NBA 3rd team, a few first round playoff exits. Is one great postseason enough for a player to jump 30+ spots?

[Kblaze8855]

When the issue is the abstract "greatness" it is.

Plenty of guys only have like 2 years of top level accomplishments(MVP....title...something like that).

[sdot_thadon]

Because we think when a player is great we cant give them the credit we feel they deserve until they win. It's counterintuitive, but that's the way things have been. Did Dirk become that much of a better player across that one season? No. That's the fatal flaw in the rangz line of thinking.....

[guy]

I don't think its that crazy. If/when I rank players, I do it based on how who I would want to build a team around with the only objective being winning as many titles as possible. There's only about 20-25 players that have actually led teams to titles as clearly the best player. So actually doing it should result in a huge leap. Plus, in his case, you got to remember, he was somewhat deservingly looked at as a huge choker who looked like he squandered his best chances a few years prior and was a first/second round loser at that point. He completely changed the perception on him and proved that he was actually capable of more and showed how much of a clutch playoff performer and leader he could be. He also benefited from probably the biggest choke in history, which may have clouded how great he really was.

[ArbitraryWater]

don't you always have him in your top 20 since everything you value, Dirk is highly in, whenever you post your PF stats?

Lol.

Maybe you should figure instead why he was grossly underrated pre-2011.

Hs

[LostCause]

Just came across the SLAM 500 Greatest NBA Players of All Time (https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html), which was published during the 2010-11 resgular season.

Something leaps out at me.


55. Dirk Nowitzki


I've not seen Dirk ranked outside the top ~20 in the last 7 or 8 years.

Dirk hasn't done anything post 2011 to make any strides up the all time rankings. An All-NBA 3rd team, a few first round playoff exits. Is one great postseason enough for a player to jump 30+ spots?

There are lists from 2015 that have him at 30 o-35, so it wasn’t the championship alone

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/11/07/revisiting-top-nba-players-all-time/PfEGU89kJ71gAVjwz9SBSI/story.html

Rather his longevity and also continued efficiency. As analytics become more prevalent, his value increases retroactively as well

[DMAVS41]

He went from pretty under-rated by most to probably a tad over-rated after that season.

His current ranking is far more in line with his actual historical impact and career than what people thought of him pre 2011 in my opinion though.

[egokiller]

When you beat a super team formed through collusion that promises their fans 8 rings, that's what happens. :applause:

[tontoz]

Carrying a team to a title will do that. Dallas had some playoff flops before their title run. Wasnt Dirks fault though. For his career he averaged 25/10 in the playoffs.

[Young X]

The people ranking him that low were idiots in the first place. He didn't just suddenly "figure it out" or "put it together" in 2011. He was always that great and you should've seen it. He had a bunch of great playoff series before 2011 along with a few chokes (every great player has numerous bad chokes).

If we're being real, this is all about Lebron choking that finals series away. Let's be real. Dirk was not spectacular in that series.

Sports fans are such idiots with this bullshit "storybook" narrative. MJ in his first championship "finally being a team player". Give me a break lol.

[AussieSteve]

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]don't you always have him in your top 20 since everything you value, Dirk is highly in, whenever you post your PF stats?

Lol.

Maybe you should figure instead why he was grossly underrated pre-2011.

Hs

[warriorfan]

2011

[tpols]

If Barkley had a Hakeems esque run and won an underdog title in historic aesthetic fashion he'd too hop quite a few spots from where he's at now... But alas he always choked.

[iamgine]

I think Dirk should be around 20. Low 20s maybe. I rate him high, but not as high as some.

It's just fascinating how much that one playoff run completely changed the general perception of him.

Like if he got injured and completely missed the 2011 playoffs, but the rest of his career was otherwise identical, would general consensus have him in the 40-50 range? I think I'd still have him pretty high, because for me he was clearly better than most guys in the 40-50 range, with or without the ring.
It's because those rankings takes into account accomplishments. Especially when you win a title with a relatively "bad team". Rick Barry was ranked #21. He'd be ranked much worse without his title.

Of course if Dirk was injured, there will be no accomplishment, thus no increase from previous ranking.

[tpols]

The people ranking him that low were idiots in the first place. He didn't just suddenly "figure it out" or "put it together" in 2011. He was always that great and you should've seen it. He had a bunch of great playoff series before 2011 along with a few chokes (every great player has numerous bad chokes).

If we're being real, this is all about Lebron choking that finals series away. Let's be real. Dirk was not spectacular in that series.

Sports fans are such idiots with this bullshit "storybook" narrative. MJ in his first championship "finally being a team player". Give me a break lol.


He was spectacular in crunch time in that series and record breaking out west.

Put some respeck on it.

[3ball]

When you beat a super team formed through collusion that promises their fans 8 rings, that's what happens. :applause:
Exactly - he overcame the biggest talent deficit ever in a Finals, so it's probably the greatest upset in hoops history

Some people might say the 04' Pistons but they had a better cast then Dirk did

[Young X]

He was spectacular in crunch time in that series and record breaking out west.

Put some respeck on it.He was 9-27 in game 6 and get bailed out by Jason Terry. If Lebron didn't choke, you would be criticizing Dirk for not showing up.

[warriorfan]

He was 9-27 in game 6 and get bailed out by Jason Terry. If Lebron didn't choke, you would be criticizing him for not showing up.

You can nit pick a few games but you have to admit his whole body of work during those playoffs was incredible

[Young X]

You can nit pick a few games but you have to admit his whole body of work during those playoffs was incredibleOf course it was, but that wasn't the difference in why the Mavs won. Lebron choking was. And Dirk's teammates stepping up.

If D-Wade in 2006 would've played like Lebron did in 2011, you would be praising Dirk in 2006 the same way.

[warriorfan]

Of course it was, but that wasn't the difference in why the Mavs won. Lebron choking was. And Dirk's teammates stepping up.

If D-Wade in 2006 would've played like Lebron did in 2011, you would be praising Dirk in 2006 the same way.

Maybe, you can play what if

[DMAVS41]

Of course it was, but that wasn't the difference in why the Mavs won. Lebron choking was. And Dirk's teammates stepping up.

If D-Wade in 2006 would've played like Lebron did in 2011, you would be praising Dirk in 2006 the same way.


Definitely agree with the bold, but I think what gets lost in the "the difference wasn't Dirk it was his teammates / Lebron choking" statement (which I agree with by the way) is that it minimizes just how great of a player and how great of an impact Dirk had as a player.

It's like...yea, they finally won because Terry played well and they had a center that fit well next to Dirk...and had a little luck. Well, welcome to nearly every title-winning team ever. Get a little luck and have a well-built team around the star player.

And while his first half in the last game was poor...and his overall series was not as good as his Western Conference play, his performance tends to get under-rated by you and others in the Finals. He also played a game sick...

Still put up 26/10/2 and was on god-level in crunch time when his team needed him the most. You can't really say it was "teammates and Lebron choke" because almost no NBA players are capable of putting up those clutch performances as basically the sole offensive threat of a team against an elite defensive team.. Again, Terry was great, but it all comes off of Dirk...

At the end of the day...Dirk from roughly 02 through 13 was a championship level franchise player...and the results show that. Very few players in NBA history can claim something like that with the type of longevity Dirk had as well.

So he's correctly ranked in the top 20 or so all-time imo.

[ImKobe]

Of course it was, but that wasn't the difference in why the Mavs won. Lebron choking was. And Dirk's teammates stepping up.

If D-Wade in 2006 would've played like Lebron did in 2011, you would be praising Dirk in 2006 the same way.

Mavs don't make the Finals without Dirk going nuclear in the WCF. He might have not had his best series in the Finals but he still hit a game-winner (in Game 2) and then played at an elite level in their 3 straight wins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k4Li-iT8QU

Heat would have been up 2 - 0 and they did win Game 3 as well despite Dirk's efficient 34/11. Chris Bosh had the game-winner in that one. Then you go Game 4 and Dirk again scores in the last 15 seconds to give his team a 3-point lead after D-Wade missed the game-tying FT.

Dirk averaged 10.3 ppg on 51% shooting with 100% from the Ft line in the 4th quarters of those Finals with a lot of them coming down to the last few minutes. I'd say Dirk made a hell of a difference in that series.

[FultzNationRISE]

Lol. Kobe made the opposite drop.

[Dragonyeuw]

To me 55 was low back in 2011. I mean there's no scientific formula, but the how's have always mattered. As someone said earlier, Dirk wasn't as great in the 2011 finals as he was earlier that playoffs, but the enduring narrative will be that he beat a prime Lebron/Wade/Bosh (the fine print is that the Heat likely comfortably win in 6 if Bron played as well as he did against Chicago the prior round). Had Dirk beaten, say, the Bulls in the finals that year instead it wouldn't be the same legacy booster ( though he would still climb in the rankings, just not as much).

[tpols]

He was 9-27 in game 6 and get bailed out by Jason Terry. If Lebron didn't choke, you would be criticizing Dirk for not showing up.



:lol


I mean... thats not a rare occurence.

And you didnt address the point.

Dirk dominated 4th quarters in that series to an extent we havent seen before or after.

And his play in the wild west...

nice cherrypick though.

[Young X]

:lol


I mean... thats not a rare occurence.

And you didnt address the point.

Dirk dominated 4th quarters in that series to an extent we havent seen before or after.

And his play in the wild west...

nice cherrypick though.I already addressed it. I agreed he was incredible.

But you're the type of fan that thinks a player who sucks for an entire game, gets carried by his teammates and finally hits a couple clutch shots and wins was better than someone who carried his team but missed the gamewinning shot.

Because the first guy "came through when it mattered". Totally ignoring how lucky the first guy was.

That's the Klay Thompson special. Nobody remembers all the times he sucked because his teammates always made up for it. So when he finally does have those explosive games that's all people remember.

[DMAVS41]

I already addressed it. I agreed he was incredible.

But you're the type of fan that thinks a player who sucks for an entire game, gets carried by his teammates and finally hits a couple clutch shots and wins was better than someone who carried his team but missed the gamewinning shot.

Because the first guy "came through when it mattered". Totally ignoring how lucky the first guy was.

That's the Klay Thompson special. Nobody remembers all the times he sucked because his teammates always made up for it. So when he finally does have those explosive games that's all people remember.

Sure, but that doesn't apply here as the entire offense ran through Dirk and his presence alone was super valuable to the rest of the team even if his efficiency wasn't elite (not like it was terrible either). He isn't Klay just feasting off Curry/Durant...dude was legit the only guy that could consistently do anything on offense on that team without being spoonfed wide open shots.

Close games are inevitable...especially against a team like those Heat...not many teams are capable of blowing that 11 team out...so you are going to have to win some close games...and it would be hard to perform better than Dirk and the Mavs did in those close games.

At the end of the day...it was not an all-time great series, but 26/10/2 54% TS while being the only offensive player that can create offense for himself and others...while also playing all-time great in the clutch to win as a big underdog was really impressive and capped off a truly all-time great 10 year run by Dirk.

[AussieSteve]

I already addressed it. I agreed he was incredible.

But you're the type of fan that thinks a player who sucks for an entire game, gets carried by his teammates and finally hits a couple clutch shots and wins was better than someone who carried his team but missed the gamewinning shot.

Because the first guy "came through when it mattered". Totally ignoring how lucky the first guy was.

That's the Klay Thompson special. Nobody remembers all the times he sucked because his teammates always made up for it. So when he finally does have those explosive games that's all people remember.

I remember looking into Dirk' s 2011 finals in a fair bit of detail a couple of years ago and his stats are quite staggering.

Don't quote me on this because it won't be exact, but his numbers in the 4 games they won were something like 14ppg on 35%efg in the first 3 quarters. It was Miami being awful and Dallas' roll players playing well that kept it close.

Sure he had 10+ppg in q4, but like 5 or 6 points of these were through late game free throws.

Having said all this, the rest of that playoff run was pretty epic.