If the Clippers win it all this year

[Jay-B]

With Kawhi leading the way is he the GOAT?

Back to back championships in his first year with teams, I don

[Wardell Curry]

No. He would have to bring a ridiculous string of titles to the LAC for that discussion to even begin.

Kawhi Leonard is in a weird situation though... we'll never really know how good he is or isn't because he's literally never been on a bad team in his entire career unlike pretty much every other great player ever.

He started on a team with one of the greatest to ever do it in Tim Duncan, along with Manu and TP, obviously... Spurs are always solid. You could say he elevated a mediocre cast to "good" status after TD's retirement, but that's about the most adversity he's ever seen. He has been gifted good teams from day 1.

The Raptors were a very good team for a very long time although they choked in the playoffs, they made multiple key additions and had a breakout player last year aside from just Kawhi.

The Clippers took the fully loaded Warriors to 6 games last year... and now they've added Kawhi and PG.


Kawhi is already an all time great player but he's also become overrated because of his teams. The Raptors were absolutely stacked last year, and the Clippers are very deep as well. To his credit, he's also clearly head and shoulders the best player on either one of those teams.

I don't know where he will end up on the all time list, but GOAT? I just don't see him being dominant enough for that ever to be a discussion, because he is clearly peaking right now.

[Wardell Curry]

Also, I might add... if the Warriors don't lose two of their three best players to injury during the Finals/playoffs last years, the Raptors 100% do not win the title and this thread doesn't exist.

[StrongLurk]

Kawhi's resume is inflated compared to his production.

Super weak FMVP in 2014 means nothing honestly. He was great last year, but technically wouldn't have a 2nd FMVP if Durant/Klay are healthy.

I will say Kawhi is front runner for best player in the NBA this year.

[Spurs m8]

He passes LeCollude for sure

[DMAVS41]

Not even close, but that kind of impact/legacy if he were to win a title and finals mvp this year would put him very high on a lot of lists.

[DMAVS41]

Kawhi's resume is inflated compared to his production.

Super weak FMVP in 2014 means nothing honestly. He was great last year, but technically wouldn't have a 2nd FMVP if Durant/Klay are healthy.

I will say Kawhi is front runner for best player in the NBA this year.

I'm not so sure. He was clearly a high impact player very early on and also very clearly sacrificed individual numbers for his team during his time on the Spurs.

Also, we have no idea what would have happened if the Warriors were healthy, but even then...who cares...what you say is arbitrary. It would be like saying..." technically Durant wouldn't have any titles or finals MVP's if he didn't join a dynasty level team without him"

Not sure why Durant's would count, but Leonard's wouldn't.

End of the day...if Leonard leads this Clippers team to a title this year while playing great yet again...you just can't deny his impact and it would rightfully vault him up all-time lists because very few players would have accomplished shit like that.

[Wardell Curry]

^ Comparing hypothetically joining a team or not to two unforeseeable injuries to key players on a team that factually existed and were back to back champions is an unfair comparison and vastly different levels of arbitrary categorization.

[DMAVS41]

^ Comparing hypothetically joining a team or not to two unforeseeable injuries to key players on a team that factually exists and are back to back champions is an unfair comparison and vastly different levels of arbitrary categorization.

I don't think so at all.

In fact, I think Durant would have had a much lower chance of winning titles not joining the Warriors than Leonard would have had last year against a healthy Warriors team.

:confusedshrug:

[StrongLurk]

^ Comparing hypothetically joining a team or not to two unforeseeable injuries to key players on a team that factually existed and were back to back champions is an unfair comparison and vastly different levels of arbitrary categorization.

I agree with this.

Besides, Kawhi has been on stacked teams literally his whole career.

If Kawhi wins a chip this year and FMVP, Ill put him in my top 20. Right now he is top 75 since he has had so little ACTUAL PRODUCTION.

[DMAVS41]

I agree with this.

Besides, Kawhi has been on stacked teams literally his whole career.

If Kawhi wins a chip this year and FMVP, Ill put him in my top 20. Right now he is top 75 since he has had so little ACTUAL PRODUCTION.

So just to be clear.

Durant joining the Warriors and winning titles is more impressive than Leonard winning a title last year and then winning on with the Clippers this year.

Correct?

[StrongLurk]

Also, as a reminder since people seem to have forgotten.

Kawhi in the 2014 playoffs averaged 14/7/2 in 32 mpg, over the course of 23 games.

That's not even close to top 20 all time production. I don't care at all that he won FMVP that year when it comes to his all time ranking.

[DMAVS41]

Also, as a reminder since people seem to have forgotten.

Kawhi in the 2014 playoffs averaged 14/7/2 in 32 mpg, over the course of 23 games.

That's not even close to top 20 all time production. I don't care at all that he won FMVP that year when it comes to his all time ranking.

Who said his level of play in the 14 playoffs was top 20 of all time?

A career ranking is made up of everything...and 14, just like every year, would be part of his legacy.

14 certainly isn't a knock against him...he was an elite defensive force and a team first player that helped win a title. Nobody at the time nor now is arguing his play in 14 was worthy of all-time great consideration in the top 20.

Seems like a non point.

[StrongLurk]

Who said his level of play in the 14 playoffs was top 20 of all time?

A career ranking is made up of everything...and 14, just like every year, would be part of his legacy.

14 certainly isn't a knock against him...he was an elite defensive force and a team first player that helped win a title. Nobody at the time nor now is arguing his play in 14 was worthy of all-time great consideration in the top 20.

Seems like a non point.

Might have been a little off-tangent, but it's due to people overrating Kawhi's entire body of work based off of his two rings/two finals mvps.

I'll give him some credit for last year, he was great overall not factoring in winning or losing. But 2014 does nothing for Kawhi when it comes to all time rankings, just like Kobe's ring in 2000 does nothing for him when it comes to being ranked top 10 all-time (for objective, reasonable basketball fans).

But I've seen people put Kawhi already in the top 20 or so all time which is crazy for a guy with so little actual production. Hell he doesn't even have 9,000 total career points.

[SouBeachTalents]

Might have been a little off-tangent, but it's due to people overrating Kawhi's entire body of work based off of his two rings/two finals mvps.

I'll give him some credit for last year, he was great overall not factoring in winning or losing. But 2014 does nothing for Kawhi when it comes to all time rankings, just like Kobe's ring in 2000 does nothing for him when it comes to being ranked top 10 all-time (for objective, reasonable basketball fans).

But I've seen people put Kawhi already in the top 20 or so all time which is crazy for a guy with so little actual production. Hell he doesn't even have 9,000 total career points.
Anybody outside of this asylum?

[DMAVS41]

Might have been a little off-tangent, but it's due to people overrating Kawhi's entire body of work based off of his two rings/two finals mvps.

I'll give him some credit for last year, he was great overall not factoring in winning or losing. But 2014 does nothing for Kawhi when it comes to all time rankings, just like Kobe's ring in 2000 does nothing for him when it comes to being ranked top 10 all-time (for objective, reasonable basketball fans).

But I've seen people put Kawhi already in the top 20 or so all time which is crazy for a guy with so little actual production. Hell he doesn't even have 9,000 total career points.

I don't know if the Kobe/Leonard example "does nothing" but I understand the point.

Of course he's not top 20 at this point, that would be absurd.

However, this question is essentially where would he be if he plays great, wins another title, and gets another finals mvp.

I'd have to think about it, but he'd be pretty high because of his basketball ability...

He's already on the short list of best peremiter defender ever. That matters, that puts him in certain conversations because that impact off his defense alone is huge.

And if he has back to back years winning titles on two different franchises while averaging something like 29/8/4 high efficiency...I mean, he's going to vault a lot of guys depending on how important longevity is to the individual ranking.

Like, you taking Pippen over Leonard if the above happens? Stockton? Could go on and on. He'd be up there.

[bison]

Anybody outside of this asylum?

:oldlol:

Whenever people on this forum say things like "People are talking about...," "People have this guy ranked as top 20...," "People are saying..." etc, it almost always means THIS forum, and not, like, normal real life people.