Stronglurk asked for someone to argue 98' MJ over peak Kobe/Wade - here it is

[3ball]

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Playoffs


1998 Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html).... 32.4.. 5.1.. 3.5.. 2.1 tov.. 46.2 fg.. 117 ortg.. 28.1 PER.. 0.265 ws.. 6.3 obpm
2009 Bryant (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html).... 30.2.. 5.5.. 5.3.. 2.6 tov.. 45.7 fg.. 117 ortg.. 26.8 PER.. 0.238 ws.. 6.7 obpm
2006 Wade (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html)'..... 28.4.. 5.9.. 5.7.. 3.9 tov.. 49.7 fg.. 115 ortg.. 26.9 PER.. 0.240 ws.. 5.1 obpm




PERCENTAGE OF TEAM POINTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR


..........................RS......RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1998.... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

KOBE. 2009....... 32.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/stats/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 35.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 36.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
WADE 2006....... 32.7 (https://stats.nba.com/player/2548/usage/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 37.9 (https://stats.nba.com/player/2548/usage/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 32.9 (https://stats.nba.com/player/2548/usage/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 38.5 (https://stats.nba.com/player/2548/usage/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 41.1 (https://stats.nba.com/player/2548/usage/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 53.8 (https://stats.nba.com/player/2548/usage/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)



Look at the "PO 4th" column (playoffs 4th qtr).. :bowdown:..

And you must consider the way MJ closed out the Finals in GOAT fashion - the goat clutch

Is there any doubt?.. :kobe:.. :whatever:


Other factors

When did Kobe or Wade win the regular season MVP, all-star MVP, Finals MVP, scoring title, 1st team defense, and the title in the same year like MJ did in 1998?

I'll wait.. Only MJ has ever done this.. and he did it in 1996 too

Also, peak Wade and Kobe occurred at a time when everyone's stats were inflated because defense was a lot less effective than the 1998 environment - so you have to account for that when you compare the stats

And at no point in Wade or Kobe's career could they dunk on a 7-footer off a jumpstop like MJ did over Ostertag... MJ got 90 dunks that year, which would rank in the top 3 seasons of Kobe or Wade's career..

[TheMan]

Thats it, you convinced me...MJ the GOAT.

And I'm a prominent member of the LeFam :(

Another one

[dazzer87]

@ the age of 35.........:biggums:

[ImKobe]

Ok, so your argument is offensive +/- and 4th quarter scoring? Kobe didn't need to score much in the 4th in the Playoffs because his team rarely was in that situation where he needed to take over as is evidenced by the number of blowout wins they had. You look at the Finals and Lakers have 3 wins by double-digits with two huge blowouts and the series ended in 5 games and Kobe was also passing the ball more than he ever had in any Playoff series because the Magic kept double-teaming him.

Yet and still, 2009 Kobe has the better offensive +/-, though I don't really put much stock into that statistic. Jordan is the GOAT but a 35 y.o MJ is not better than prime Kobe. The FG% is mis-leading because Kobe took a fair amount of 3s. Kobe had a 56.4%TS to Jordan's 54.5%.

[TheMan]

@ the age of 35.........:biggums:
A visibly declining MJ still better than peak Kobe and Wade :eek:

Where is StrongLurk to refute the evidence...avoiding this thread like the plague :oldlol:

[dazzer87]

A visibly declining MJ still better than peak Kobe and Wade :eek:

Where is StrongLurk to refute the evidence...avoiding this thread like the plague :oldlol:
typical lebron stan.....Throw facts in their faces and then they ghost...

[StrongLurk]

It's a decent argument although it's not really showing me anything I didn't know already, of course OP would do this even though I wasn't even replying to him in the other thread.

OP is clearly being disingenuous. Peak Wade is 09 by the way and peak Kobe is 06/07 Kobe.

Those guys were on terrible teams so they didn't do much in the playoffs.

I would still take peak Kobe/Wade over 98 MJ. 09 Wade was better in the regular season and the playoffs, just had a shitty team like 80's MJ.

[3ball]

It's a decent argument, of course OP would do this even though I wasn't even replying to him in the other thread.

OP is clearly being disingenuous. Peak Wade is 09 by the way and peak Kobe is 06/07 Kobe.

Those guys were on terrible teams so they didn't do much in the playoffs.

I would still take peak Kobe/Wade over 98 MJ. 09 Wade was better in the regular season and the playoffs, just had a shitty team like 80's MJ.
why compare stat-padding on bad teams to championship runs?... makes no sense.

And 91' MJ > his young gun years... ditto for 09' Kobe or 13' Lebron.. this is standard for great players (they put it all together during their first championship runs)

And at no point in Wade or Kobe's career could they carry the load that 98' MJ carried (percentage of team points scored), even in their young gun years on bad teams.

But carry on... you were never going to concede that 98' MJ was better, regardless what the number said... but he obviously was based on every tangible and intangible metric there is
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I would take every full season of Jordan from 88 thru 98. Peak Wade. Peak Kobe. Doesn't matter.

Mike was incredibly skilled, durable and could withstand tougher defense.

[StrongLurk]

why compare stat-padding on bad teams to championship runs?... makes no sense.

And 91' MJ > his young gun years... ditto for 09' Kobe or 13' Lebron.. this is standard for great players (they put it all together during their first championship runs)

And at no point in Wade or Kobe's career could they carry the load that 98' MJ carried (percentage of team points scored), even in their young gun years on bad teams.

But carry on... you were never going to concede that 98' MJ was better, regardless what the number said... but he obviously was based on every tangible and intangible metric there is

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. Players best years aren't somehow always the year they win a championship like you are stating. Also you are exaggerating once again for MJ with the bolded.

[3ball]

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. Players best years aren't somehow always the year they win a championship like you are stating. Also you are exaggerating once again for MJ with the bolded.
It's only a slight exaggeration to say MJ led in all the categories

Let's look at their athleticism first..

Peak Wade might've been faster running in a straight line or with a head of steam.. But MJ was quicker in tight spaces, from a stationary position, and also better from a standstill vertical or vertical on jumpshot, while carrying a bigger frame, hands and height.

So physically, Wade doesn't have the advantage that you think.. I'd prefer to be 98' MJ than the shorter, smaller hands Wade, who needs a head of steam to achieve top speeds and didn't have anywhere near the elevation on his jumper, or overall smoothness in the air.. MJ still floated in the air at 35.. I prefer these things over Wade's physiology.


Here's other categories:


AWARDS - MJ by a mile

STATS - MJ matches or exceeds them in the playoffs, with greater burden

CLUTCH - 98' MJ was the goat clutch player

DEFENSE - 98' MJ was #4 in DPOY voting

EYE TEST - it's subjective, but MJ's patented fadeaway and elevation on that fadeaway has goat appeal, while his smoothness was still unmatched at 35

CARRY-ABILITY - MJ's 98' playoff run and Finals is a goat carry-job (rodman wasn't even starting and Pippen was aids, so MJ had record-burden)

EXPERIENCE - MJ by a mile



Skills


POST GAME - MJ by a mile

OFF-BALL GAME/TEAMWORK - MJ by a mile

JUMPSHOT - MJ/Kobe - their combination of volume and efficiency is unmatched in the history of the game - they are the goat jumpshooters due to their goat VARIETY of jumpers; their goat CONTESTED jumpshooting ability; and insane goat volume coupled with good efficiency.

HANDLE - here's an area (the least important one) that Wade/Kobe > 98' MJ


What other categories are there?.. 98' MJ beats peak Wade/Kobe in substantially every category, except a one-off here and there, although I had a hard time thinking of any

[3ball]

I didn't realize this thread was such a blowout

[light]

So even crappy MJ was better than absolute peak Wade?

You've just boosted LeBron's GOAT case.