If Kawhi Leonard delivers a ring to Clippers this season, does he surpass Lebron? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

ripthekik

10-25-2019, 08:35 AM

Uncle Drew

10-25-2019, 08:38 AM

Why did you leave after 2016?

Manny98

10-25-2019, 08:44 AM

No but he surpasses Kobe

Wally450

10-25-2019, 09:18 AM

Why did you leave after 2016?

This. OP ran away like a scared dog for years.

FultzNationRISE

10-25-2019, 09:28 AM

NO, sukthedik, he DOESNT.

90sgoat

10-25-2019, 09:35 AM

Why yes, yes he does.

Thank you op for this. You're a real worthy poster on ISH.:cheers:

Bronbron23

10-25-2019, 09:37 AM

I think so.

The fact that he has never joined a super team with already 2 all-stars on it brings a lot of weight. He had the opportunity to join Lebron and AD this summer, but decided to go to Clippers to pair up with PG and lead his own team. We all know if it was Lebron's decision, he would have went to the place with 2 stars in place.

also, that will be his 3rd ring, tied with Lebron.
He has accomplished as much, and with less.
No he'll be close though. He dosnt have enough of a resume to be considered better than LeBron even though he'll have the same amount of rings.

I think the clippers are gonna go back to back and maybe even threepeats though so he will if that happens.

90sgoat

10-25-2019, 09:38 AM

No he'll be close though. He dosnt have enough of a resume to be considered better than LeBron even though he'll have the same amount of rings.

I think the clippers are gonna go back to back and maybe even threepeats though so he will if that happens.

Resume?

If Kawhi wins a third ring with a third team, then clearly that shows that "resume" as defined by stats and media awards, is not all that it's made up to be.

Bosnian Sajo

10-25-2019, 09:43 AM

Especially if it happens the very first year? I think it elevates Kawhi to new heights.

Think about it, who else in NBA history delivered 2 separate franchises their very 1st NBA title, especially teams that used to be laughing stocks? Raptors were known as a regular season team and playoff choke artists (specifically labeled as "Lebron's bitch") while the Clippers...well...the Clippers are the Clippers, nuff said.

3 titles and 3 FMVP's with 3 separate franchises? That ain't no fluke.

Kingwillball

10-25-2019, 09:43 AM

So Kawhi becomes the 2nd best player ever if he wins ring this year ?

red1

10-25-2019, 09:46 AM

NO, sukthedik, he DOESNT.
:roll:

clippers gonna be taking souls this season, that's a fact. the only one that might have a chance is LeShangTsung, the man with OP's soul neatly filed away in his 2016 championship trophy case.

red1

10-25-2019, 09:47 AM

OP is one of the clowns who said lebron will never win a ring - 3 finals MVPs now bitch, you have a lot of dikksukking to make up for might as well get on your knees and get started now. :roll:

Mr Feeny

10-25-2019, 09:51 AM

Resume?

If Kawhi wins a third ring with a third team, then clearly that shows that "resume" as defined by stats and media awards, is not all that it's made up to be.

Yeah but he's in an awkward position because he doesn't have the body of work that the upper echelon stars on the GOAT list do. He doesn't have the cumulative totals or the MVPs because he has barely played.

But he'll elevate his legacy tremendously. He will have done what nobody else in nba history has. Going to Toronto and leading them to their 1st title in franchise history and then moving on to perennial losers in the Clippers and doing so on his 1st attempt is crazy.

Bronbron23

10-25-2019, 09:53 AM

Resume?

If Kawhi wins a third ring with a third team, then clearly that shows that "resume" as defined by stats and media awards, is not all that it's made up to be.
I'm not that high on stats and awards determining greatness myself but it does matter some. Kawhi needs a little more is all. He dosnt have any scoring titles or mvp's. He only has three all star appearances and only 3 full seasons of 20 points or more. He just hasn't done enough to be better with the the same amount of rings.

guy

10-25-2019, 09:55 AM

I hate alot on Lebron, but I got to be realistic - not even close. He's clearly a better player than Lebron right now, and was better last year, but up until that point, his career wasn't anything special. His career with the Spurs was not transcedent and his first ring doesn't really do much for him - he wasn't much more than a role player, and IMO, Duncan was their best player and should've won FMVP. Not to mention, Lebron has just been that great. He's greater than guys like Harden and Westbrook, and maybe he'll surpass or get on the level of Curry or Durant, but he still wouldn't touch what Lebron has done and how dominant he was.

And the 3 rings with 3 different teams doesn't mean shit to me - its a completely arbitrary achievement that alot of players don't have the chance to go after because they were team culture setters/leaders that instead of leaving a successful situation, wanted to continue to build on it.

I'm not sure Kawhi really has much of a chance to ever surpass Lebron or many of the other GOATs. His first 7 years in the league just weren't that dominant. He would really have to turn this Clippers team into one of the most dominant dynasties in NBA history, which maybe he will, but given his injury history, I find it hard to believe he will stay on that pace. Otherwise, his ceiling is probably right outside of the top 10 i.e. Hakeem Olajuwon-level, which is still amazing.

Bosnian Sajo

10-25-2019, 09:59 AM

So Kawhi becomes the 2nd best player ever if he wins ring this year ?

No, he takes Lebron's 8th place spot is what OP is implying.

knicksman

10-25-2019, 10:00 AM

No he'll be close though. He dosnt have enough of a resume to be considered better than LeBron even though he'll have the same amount of rings.

I think the clippers are gonna go back to back and maybe even threepeats though so he will if that happens.

After what kawhi did last finals? You guys would still build around lebron over kawhi?

Bronbron23

10-25-2019, 10:11 AM

After what kawhi did last finals? You guys would still build around lebron over kawhi?
Nah I'd build around kawhi. We're talking careers though and kawhi is just entering into his prime. We have to wait and see. It's looking like he'll pass LeBron at this rate but he hasn't yet.

guy

10-25-2019, 10:14 AM

After what kawhi did last finals? You guys would still build around lebron over kawhi?

If you had to draft one or the other from the beginning of their careers knowing how their careers and level of play have been up until this point, no sane person would take Kawhi over Lebron.

I assume we're talking all-time not currently.

knicksman

10-25-2019, 10:14 AM

Nah I'd build around kawhi. We're talking careers though and kawhi is just entering into his prime. We have to wait and see. It's looking like he'll pass LeBron at this rate but he hasn't yet.

I guess we have different criteria. Im taking the guy who will give me the most rings even if he doesnt have 1 MVP.

Kiddlovesnets

10-25-2019, 10:15 AM

Not so fast yet, he will need 4 rings to stand a chance. He will surpass Kobe for sure, since anyone with 3 FMVPs are immediately ahead of Kobe.

knicksman

10-25-2019, 10:17 AM

If you had to draft one or the other knowing how their careers and level of play have been up until this point, no sane person would take Kawhi over Lebron.

I assume we're talking all-time not currently.

Im taking kawhi. My goal is to win as many rings as possible not MVPs. And kawhi has proven its easier to build around him.

red1

10-25-2019, 10:18 AM

welcome back knickswoman. :applause:

guy

10-25-2019, 10:24 AM

Im taking kawhi. My goal is to win as many rings as possible not MVPs. And kawhi has proven its easier to build around him.

Given how long it took Kawhi to get to level he got to last year and his significantly inferior durability and longevity (its not his fault he's younger and has gotten the years in, but its factual)? No he's not. Plus, I would still take most of 2012-2018 Lebron over any version of Kawhi (maybe not 2014, 2015).

Bronbron23

10-25-2019, 10:29 AM

I guess we have different criteria. Im taking the guy who will give me the most rings even if he doesnt have 1 MVP.
Well The question was will he surpass LeBron? Not who would you take to build a team around. Like I said I'd take kawhi too but if we're talking careers, kawhi has to do a little more. He's only played 7 full seasons so far.

knicksman

10-25-2019, 10:29 AM

Given how long it took Kawhi to get to level he got to last year and his significantly inferior durability and longevity (its not his fault he's younger and has gotten the years in, but its factual)? No he's not. Plus, I would still take most of 2012-2018 Lebron over any version of Kawhi (maybe not 2014, 2015).

Id rather have kawhi with just 1 season in his prime over lebrons entire career. I have a higher chance of getting a ring with him than with lebron. Lebron needs a superteam.

r0drig0lac

10-25-2019, 10:35 AM

Not so fast yet, he will need 4 rings to stand a chance. He will surpass Kobe for sure, since anyone with 3 FMVPs are immediately ahead of Kobe.
agree although with a ring in his first season in Los Angeles, he is undoubtedly historically the best player to enter the league after Lebron (in fact he already is, but the ring will solidify this status)

knicksman

10-25-2019, 10:39 AM

Well The question was will he surpass LeBron? Not who would you take to build a team around. Like I said I'd take kawhi too but if we're talking careers, kawhi has to do a little more. He's only played 7 full seasons so far.

the top 10 GOATS are also the ranking of players who you will take to build a team around. Thats why there are people who puts lebron outside the top 10 coz collusion doesnt make him a top 10 player to build around

DMAVS41

10-25-2019, 10:58 AM

No, not even close...

Maybe he passes Kobe though.

Bronbron23

10-25-2019, 11:15 AM

the top 10 GOATS are also the ranking of players who you will take to build a team around. Thats why there are people who puts lebron outside the top 10 coz collusion doesnt make him a top 10 player to build around
Right but we saw there careers unfold. Would mj be ahead of LeBron, Kareem, magic, Kobe and bird if he stopped playing at 29? I would of taken mj to build a team around over those guys but he wouldn't have passed them as far as careers go with just 2 or 3 chips. Kawhis trajectory is looking like he will surpass LeBron and alot of people but we just don't know. Maybe Greek gets a mid-range and post game and eclipse kawhi. Maybe kawhi gets injured and dosnt reach his full potential.

Shit I'd take Greek to build around over harden, Westbrook, malone, Barkley, ewing and alot of other guys because his potential is crazy and I think he'll develop his offence and dominate the league in a couple years but he hasn't passed any of them career wise yet.

Hey Yo

10-25-2019, 11:18 AM

Im taking kawhi. My goal is to win as many rings as possible not MVPs. And kawhi has proven its easier to build around him.
:roll:

No team has built around Kawhi. He's just been an added piece of the puzzle that's already been or close to being complete.

guy

10-25-2019, 11:19 AM

No, not even close...

Maybe he passes Kobe though.

Are you talking about after this year? No way.

I think thats highly unlikely he ever gets to that point either. Again, he just hasn't been on that pace. If the Clippers are a dynasty on the level of the 80s Lakers, 90s Bulls, 00s Lakers, 00s Spurs, with him being the driving force, then sure its possible.

If I had to bet, Kawhi probably has 5-6 great years left. I would predict the Clippers win 1-2 titles and have a bunch of deep playoff runs that are either cut short due to injury, very possibly to Kawhi, or some unforeseen team being better.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

10-25-2019, 11:26 AM

Kawhi has to putup a few more years with this level of play.

And when I say "has to", that means legitimately upping guys like Lebron and Kobe. You could argue peaks. Or the short prime stuff. Career talk? Kawhi needs to do more.

DMAVS41

10-25-2019, 11:29 AM

Are you talking about after this year? No way.

I think thats highly unlikely he ever gets to that point either. Again, he just hasn't been on that pace. If the Clippers are a dynasty on the level of the 80s Lakers, 90s Bulls, 00s Lakers, 00s Spurs, with him being the driving force, then sure its possible.

If I had to bet, Kawhi probably has 5-6 great years left. I would predict the Clippers win 1-2 titles and have a bunch of deep playoff runs that are either cut short due to injury, very possibly to Kawhi, or some unforeseen team being better.

It was a joke dude.

But he has a much better chance to get into the Kobe range consideration than Lebron of course.

Bronbron23

10-25-2019, 11:53 AM

:roll:

No team has built around Kawhi. He's just been an added piece of the puzzle that's already been or close to being complete.
This is a good point. Kawhi has been awful lucky. That's what it takes though. How many rings would mj or Kobe have if not being traded or drafted to where they were? How many rings would Duncan have if wasn't drafted to the spurs. If your gonna fault kawhi you pretty much have to do the same for everyone.

DMAVS41

10-25-2019, 11:55 AM

This is a good point. Kawhi has been awful lucky. That's what it takes though. How many rings would mj or Kobe have if not being traded or drafted to where they were? How many rings would Duncan have if wasn't drafted to the spurs. If your gonna fault kawhi you pretty much have to do the same for everyone.

Yep.

Which is why it is always best to talk about level of play / impact while taking success into context given circumstances.

There is a universe in which KG/Dirk played their entire careers together and won 7 titles or something.

Wouldn't make either of them better at basketball though.

Bronbron23

10-25-2019, 12:08 PM

Yep.

Which is why it is always best to talk about level of play / impact while taking success into context given circumstances.

There is a universe in which KG/Dirk played their entire careers together and won 7 titles or something.

Wouldn't make either of them better at basketball though.
Yeah it's impossible to know that's why I think the eye test is the best measure if you can do it objectively. Of course you have to use chips and stats and accolades too but circumstances and era's make it hard to determine whos better than who accurately.

sportjames23

10-25-2019, 12:18 PM

Why yes, yes he does.

Thank you op for this. You're a real worthy poster on ISH.:cheers:

He truly is. :cheers:

ImKobe

10-25-2019, 12:21 PM

Yes. He would be the first player in NBA history to win 3 rings and FMVPs with 3 different franchises. He would be 3/4 in the Finals with his only loss coming thanks to maybe the greatest shot in Finals history and that was only his 2nd season, when he was still a role player and not expected to carry the team.

The Raptors always came up short despite having good Regular Seasons in the past, the Spurs didn't get it done for a long stretch before Kawhi became more of a scorer, the Clippers have never been to the Conference Finals despite having all these seasons with winning records since 2012 and having top 5-10 players in CP3 and Blake Griffin, they weren't exactly a contender last year either as an 8th seed.

You don't really need to do as much to build around Kawhi because he gets his regardless of who's around him and he will play elite defense on the best 1-4 player on the other end. He won last year without having a true elite 2nd option on his roster. Siakam might become one in the future but he wasn't that great for most of the Playoffs, he had a couple flashes and Lowry, Green, Gasol & FVV were wildly inconsistent offensively for most of the Playoffs. His style of play allows for great ball movement which leads to great team chemistry.

He's the MJ/Kobe of his era.

FireDavidKahn

10-25-2019, 12:52 PM

Hard to say...

Because when you really get down to the nitty gritty Kawhi has forced himself into extremely favorable conditions and even colluded with another Superstar.

I've 100% soured on LeBron after his China shit but Kawhi has absolutely colluded and forced trades and everything that LeBron gets bashed for.

But to answer your question, no he wouldn't at least not yet. Regular season dominance still factors into someones legacy and Kawhi can't even come close to LeBron in that aspect yet when you look at his almost 15 years of top 5 or near top 5 MVP play.

superduper

10-25-2019, 12:57 PM

Kawhi surpassed Bran's soul in 2014.

ripthekik

10-25-2019, 02:06 PM

OP is one of the clowns who said lebron will never win a ring - 3 finals MVPs now bitch, you have a lot of dikksukking to make up for might as well get on your knees and get started now. :roll:
this fool still here :roll:

are you just mad kawhi left your team this summer? now raps will go being what they always have been.. used to be sons of lebrons, now they will be sons of giannis :lol

knicksman

10-25-2019, 07:47 PM

Right but we saw there careers unfold. Would mj be ahead of LeBron, Kareem, magic, Kobe and bird if he stopped playing at 29? I would of taken mj to build a team around over those guys but he wouldn't have passed them as far as careers go with just 2 or 3 chips. Kawhis trajectory is looking like he will surpass LeBron and alot of people but we just don't know. Maybe Greek gets a mid-range and post game and eclipse kawhi. Maybe kawhi gets injured and dosnt reach his full potential.

Shit I'd take Greek to build around over harden, Westbrook, malone, Barkley, ewing and alot of other guys because his potential is crazy and I think he'll develop his offence and dominate the league in a couple years but he hasn't passed any of them career wise yet.

Well we have different criteria for GOAT ranking. Jordan is GOAT because hes the best player to build around same with kareem who won in 2 franchises. And kawhi winning with 2 franchises and doing it right away in his 1st year makes him on the same level as kareem. I dont care about how many MVPs he has right now. What matters to me is who will give me the most rings and Lebron hasnt proven yet that he could give you rings without superteams.

Spurs m8

10-25-2019, 07:54 PM

Leonard will finish his career higher than Bron....

Both as a player, and respect...and that's even after the SA saga.

Leonard hasn't needed media hype, his game has done the talking AND he plays winning basketball.

knicksman

10-25-2019, 07:58 PM

:roll:

No team has built around Kawhi. He's just been an added piece of the puzzle that's already been or close to being complete.

Coz hes not insecure that he tries to force everyone to adjust to his style. Thats what sets apart winners from losers. Ring in his 1st year without superteam needed. A feat bron could only dream of.

LAmbruh

10-25-2019, 08:17 PM

Depression_M8 already fixated on begging Jeff to change name back, again LOLOLOL

Guy hasn't slowed polishing Kwitters knob even a lick, just needed time for the O-ring to heal :roll:

Sportal

10-25-2019, 08:21 PM

I mean... If he passed LeBron.. that would mean he's a top10 ATG... And I don't think that's super logical..

HylianNightmare

10-25-2019, 08:35 PM

Easily

Spurs m8

10-25-2019, 09:02 PM

Coz hes not insecure that he tries to force everyone to adjust to his style. Thats what sets apart winners from losers. Ring in his 1st year without superteam needed. A feat bron could only dream of.

He couldn't even make the playoffs :roll: :roll: :roll:

SamuraiSWISH

10-25-2019, 09:19 PM

Yikes in actuality ...

If he does it as an MVP and HOF caliber two way player. I think it’s in play and favorable for me personally.

Spurs, and then shit hole franchises like Raptors / Clippers first rings?

Kinda easily, yes.

Plus 3 Finals MVPs.

Damn. He’s going to be moving New Balances in the process?

Without needing to jock ride other superstars and “team up” at the same level.

coin24

10-25-2019, 10:47 PM

LeBeta fam shook over this one, if kawhi can get the clippers a ring, 3 titles on 3 teams as the man FMVP that definitely puts him over bran..
(Who he shit all over in the finals btw)

Jay-B

10-26-2019, 12:11 AM

For sure he passes LeBron no way does he pass Kobe yet

stalkerforlife

10-26-2019, 12:14 AM

Easily.

And already has to basketball aficionados.

sportjames23

10-26-2019, 12:40 AM

Short answer: Yes

Long answer: Yes

PickernRoller

10-26-2019, 12:50 AM

It will reach the no doubt about it consensus threshold.

Already is to me at least.

Phoenix

10-26-2019, 12:57 AM

Kawhis an interesting case because while hes been around for 9 years it almost feels like hes just getting started. He was a slow burner, didn't set the world on fire his first few years coming along under the Spurs system, but the potential was evident. He's really come into his own the past 4 years and now, fresh off a title at 28 and in his prime, he is starting to carry that swagger and confidence that comes after climbing the mountain as the man. His career averages aren't eye popping because it took him 4-5 years to become a 20ppg guy, so you have to really look at what hes been since 2015 and see where he goes from here on out.

If he wins MVP this year and then goes on to win the chip/finals MVP, you start looking at his prior body of work starting especially with last year and where he ranks in a historical context starts getting interesting. You almost want to say he needs to do more, or do it longer, but 3 championships alongside 3 possible fmvps to boot? Yeah, it gets interesting where you'd rank him after that. I think hes got another 5 years at this current level because his style isn't based on hyper athleticism, so nows the time to make his mark.