Which superstar/s has/have had the most help in NBA history? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

AussieSteve

11-01-2019, 05:30 PM

Help needs to be assessed relative to competition as well.

For example you could argue that 2013 and 2014 lebron had more help than jordan ever had, and you'd be correct. But the other side of the coin is that lebron faced better opposition in okc and sas than Jordan ever did.

The other consideration is peak help vs career help. LeBron had better peak help, while Jordan had better career help.

Nashty

11-01-2019, 05:56 PM

Kobe. The Lakers were so unlucky to have him all these years, imagine if they had someone like Courtney Lee instead, they would win 10 championships.

warriorfan

11-01-2019, 05:56 PM

Lebron

r0drig0lac

11-01-2019, 06:10 PM

#1 Bill Russell
#2 Steph
#3 Kobe
#4 Magic / Kareem
#5 LeBron
#6 Jordan

Jordan's ranking is a little deceptive however because he played in a time when his rival superstars had no help (1st 3peat) or there were no rival superstars (2nd 3peat)
not bad tbh, where do you have Larry Bird on this list? Durant certainly had more help than Lebron and Jordan and no doubt should be in the top 5

Shogon

11-01-2019, 06:10 PM

#1 Bill Russell

Haha, ignorance.

The Celtics were around for 10 years and won zero titles.

They get Russell... boom... title... not only title, but title for 11 out of 13 years.

His last year? They win the title.

The first year after his retirement? They miss the playoffs entirely.

This is a guy that won two high school championships and two NCAA championships and then won 11 out of 13 NBA titles and you want to say it was his help. HAHA.

"Most help ever." Wow, what an utter jackass. Alright boys, time from a break from ISH for a while again if not permanently. The idiocy is overwhelming.

Keno

11-01-2019, 06:14 PM

kobe, durant, shaq and curry. mixed those names in a hat and choose.

RRR3

11-01-2019, 06:15 PM

Bill Russell played with the most HOFers ever. Settle down, slownazi

hiphopanonymous

11-01-2019, 06:18 PM

Bill Russell played with the most HOFers ever. Settle down, slownazi
I'm gonna chime in on this one, I think to me it looks pretty clear that Russell had a good team, well built throughout his career, but he was always the right piece for that team.. I don't think his team was stacked per say, so much as I think it was just built well, to where it was equal to or greater than the sum of its parts as everyone was very good at their specific roles. HOF status is a voted thing and many of his teammates are HOFers because of their involvement with that eras 11 ring Dynasty ...due to him. Which is clear because he had all 11. The next most consistent piece was Sam Jones with his 10. The other HOFers clearly weren't so integral as the team kept winning even without them.

Good discussion so far

RRR3

11-01-2019, 06:20 PM

Russell had a good team but he was the right piece for that team.. HOF status is a voted thing and many of his teammates are HOFers because of their team success ...due to him.
Name the guys who wouldn’t the HOFers without Russell, CavsFTW

JohnMax

11-01-2019, 06:22 PM

Donic, Jokic, Dirk, Nash

hiphopanonymous

11-01-2019, 06:25 PM

Name the guys who wouldn’t the HOFers without Russell, CavsFTW
I wouldn't omit anyone who's made the HOF from the HOF so I'd like to clarify that - I'm speaking hypotheticals here and not trying to diminish things players actually did accomplish

I just don't think people should consider say, KC Jones an equal to other guards like say, Jerry West or Oscar Robertson because all are "HOFer" point guards of that era. But West and Robertson are substantially better basketball players IMO. And swap KC with West or Robertson and I am really not convinced KC becomes a HOFer. That's just one example.

Manny98

11-01-2019, 06:37 PM

Kevin Durant
Then why are the Warriors and the Thunder so garbage without him :confusedshrug:

dazzer87

11-01-2019, 06:38 PM

LeGoat.

ImKobe

11-01-2019, 06:44 PM

1. Duncan
2. Magic
3. Lebron
4. Shaq
5. Bird

These guys had loaded rosters for almost their entire career.

RRR3

11-01-2019, 06:47 PM

1. Duncan
2. Magic
3. Lebron
4. Shaq
5. Bird

These guys had loaded rosters for almost their entire career.
LeBron has also had absolute trashcan rosters 8 out of 17 seasons.

eliteballer

11-01-2019, 06:51 PM

LeRoid, in the form of PED's.

RRR3

11-01-2019, 06:53 PM

I wouldn't omit anyone who's made the HOF from the HOF so I'd like to clarify that - I'm speaking hypotheticals here and not trying to diminish things players actually did accomplish

I just don't think people should consider say, KC Jones an equal to other guards like say, Jerry West or Oscar Robertson because all are "HOFer" point guards of that era. But West and Robertson are substantially better basketball players IMO. And swap KC with West or Robertson and I am really not convinced KC becomes a HOFer. That's just one example.
KC Jones shouldn’t be in the HOF. I’ll give you him. There was also Satch Sanders and Frank Ramsey, neither of whom even made an ASG. However, Russell still played with the likes of Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman, Tom Heinsohn, Sam Jones, John Havlicek and Bailey Howell.

ImKobe

11-01-2019, 06:57 PM

LeBron has also had absolute trashcan rosters 8 out of 17 seasons.

Name me the 8 seasons

He had loaded rosters from 09-19 with the exception of last year(injuries). I ranked him 3rd not first you know. Wade and Bosh in their primes, Irving and Love in their primes, AD at his peak. His rosters were decent from 06-08 as well defensively and he's always had shooters around him, bunch of great role players like Snow, Battier, Miller, Allen, Green and Korver. He was drafted to a team with Big Z and Carlos Boozer.

Consistent help throughout his prime and end of his career. I'd maybe put Bird above him but Davis and Wade are better than anyone Larry played with and Bird didn't play that many seasons, though he did have a similar amount of help for 9 or so years.

RRR3

11-01-2019, 06:59 PM

Name me the 8 seasons

He had loaded rosters from 09-19 with the exception of last year(injuries). I ranked him 3rd not first you know. Wade and Bosh in their primes, Irving and Love in their primes, AD at his peak. His rosters were decent from 06-08 as well defensively and he's always had shooters around him, bunch of great role players like Miller, Allen, Green and Korver. He was drafted to a team with Big Z and Carlos Boozer.

Consistent help throughout his prime and end of his career. I'd maybe put Bird above him but Davis and Wade are better than anyone Larry played with and Bird didn't play that many seasons, though he did have a similar amount of help for 9 or so years.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: stop trolling.

Trashcan teams from 04-10 and again in 19.

LeBeast is so good he fooled you into thinking those Cavs teams were good. He also had a trashcan team in the first half of 18, but the Cavs made good moves at the deadline. Unfortunately Lue was too dumb to play Nance enough and kept insisting Love was a center.

ImKobe

11-01-2019, 07:03 PM

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: stop trolling.

Trashcan teams from 04-10 and again in 18.

Mo, Delonte, Big Z, Ben Wallace, J.J Hickson, Varejao, Szczerbiak, Gibson in 09

Then you replace Ben Wallace with Shaq and add Jamison in 2010

"trashcan teams" don't win 60+ games with elite defense, rebounding and 3-point shooting.

RRR3

11-01-2019, 07:05 PM

[QUOTE=ImKobe]Mo, Delonte, Big Z, Ben Wallace , J.J Hickson, Varejao, Szczerbiak, Gibson in 09 [B]you named a bunch of role players and I

hiphopanonymous

11-01-2019, 07:08 PM

KC Jones shouldn’t be in the HOF. I’ll give you him. There was also Satch Sanders and Frank Ramsey, neither of whom even made an ASG. However, Russell still played with the likes of Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman, Tom Heinsohn, Sam Jones, John Havlicek and Bailey Howell.
This is purely my opinion of course but I truly believe this given all the books I've read, film I've watched and information I currently know about the Celtic dynasty of the 1960's that that team was on a trajectory for success and some of the pieces minus Bill Russell - and possibly minus Sam Jones but certainly minus Bill Russell, were interchangeable and that was proven over time as new "HOF" guys came in to replace retiring HOFers:

Let's ignore KC for a second since we both agree on that example. You can also put a Bailey Howell or Satch Sanders both, together, on Oscar Robertson's Royals or West and Baylor's Lakers and neither of those two teams will be impacted in such a way that they win a single title over the mid to late 60's Celtics minus those guys. You could just straight up swap them with like a Tom Hawkins and Happy Hairston for example. And likely Hawkins or Hairston become bigger names that potentially become HOFers due to association with that Celtic Dynasty where as Howell and Satch just become more forgotten pieces that did their part on West's, Baylor's and Robertson's title-less squads.

Again though, I don't want to rewrite history. Satch ACTUALLY helped that Celtics dynasty be a dynasty... I just also feel like there are other players that aren't HOFers that are actually comparable basketball players to him, and I think it's not unreasonable to say his Celtic Dynasty success is a big reason he's a HOFer and that since that was such a complicated machine a lot of other players can be interchanged with some of those guys and the dynasty could have had similar team success with their own unique abilities.

ImKobe

11-01-2019, 07:09 PM

LeBron was the reason those teams won 60+ games :hammerhead:

LeBron winning 66 games with trash in 09 is honestly one of his greatest achievements.

I wouldn't expect more from someone who wasn't even around to watch those seasons tbh.

RRR3

11-01-2019, 07:12 PM

I wouldn't expect more from someone who wasn't even around to watch those seasons tbh.
Tell us more about the great JJ Hickson :oldlol:

Fun fact: PRIME Kobe missed the playoffs with two players (Caron Butler and Lamar Odom) better than anyone LeBron played with in Cleveland besides Boozer (and Boozer left before Cleveland before his prime)

ImKobe

11-01-2019, 07:14 PM

Tell us more about the great JJ Hickson :oldlol:

Fun fact: PRIME Kobe missed the playoffs with two players (Caron Butler and Lamar Odom) better than anyone LeBron played with in Cleveland besides Boozer (and Boozer left before Cleveland before his prime)

"PRIME" Kobe missed 16 games and played rest of the season hurt as well as did Odom and their head coach had to resign as they were 24-19 that season. You really just told me that Caron and Odom are better than Big Z and Boozer lmao. Just stop posting.

Turbo Slayer

11-01-2019, 07:16 PM

I wouldn't expect more from someone who wasn't even around to watch those seasons tbh.
:no:

LeBron carried a garbage Cavs team to the finals.

One of his greatest accomplishments. :cheers:

Seems to me YOU dont watch Lebron's greatness and what he had to do to win the chip for CLE.

:biggums:

Kobe will however be in the 12th spot.

MOST LISTS CONFIRM THIS.

See link below

https://www.businessinsider.com/kobe-bryant-ranked-14th-in-list-of-greatest-nba-players-2019-9

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Ranked 14th.

Aint got time to argue with people on the Internet. Time-waster.

RRR3

11-01-2019, 07:18 PM

This is purely my opinion of course but I truly believe this given all the books I've read, film I've watched and information I currently know about the Celtic dynasty of the 1960's that that team was on a trajectory for success and some of the pieces minus Bill Russell - and possibly minus Sam Jones but certainly minus Bill Russell, were interchangeable and that was proven over time as new "HOF" guys came in to replace retiring HOFers:

Let's ignore KC for a second since we both agree on that example. You can also put a Bailey Howell or Satch Sanders both, together, on Oscar Robertson's Royals or West and Baylor's Lakers and neither of those two teams will be impacted in such a way that they win a single title over the mid to late 60's Celtics minus those guys. You could just straight up swap them with like a Tom Hawkins and Happy Hairston for example. And likely Hawkins or Hairston become bigger names that potentially become HOFers due to association with that Celtic Dynasty where as Howell and Satch just become more forgotten pieces that did their part on West's, Baylor's and Robertson's title-less squads.

Again though, I don't want to rewrite history. Satch ACTUALLY helped that Celtics dynasty be a dynasty... I just also feel like there are other players that aren't HOFers that are actually comparable basketball players to him, and I think it's not unreasonable to say his Celtic Dynasty success is a big reason he's a HOFer and that since that was such a complicated machine a lot of other players can be interchanged with some of those guys and the dynasty could have had similar team success with their own unique abilities.
Not to take anything away from Satch, who I’m sure was a good player as he did make an All-D team (and they didn’t have all-d teams for much of his career) but Howell was a 20/10 guy on great efficiency for his era. In 1963, for instance, he put up 22.7/11.5 on 58.9% TS (the best mark in the entire league!). In his first year in Boston he put up 20.0/8.4 on 55.9% TS in only 30.9 MPG. The man could score, clearly.

hiphopanonymous

11-01-2019, 07:21 PM

Not to take anything away from Satch, who I’m sure was a good player as he did make an All-D team (and they didn’t have all-d teams for much of his career) but Howell was a 20/10 guy on great efficiency for his era. In 1963, for instance, he put up 22.7/11.5 on 58.9% TS (the best mark in the entire league!). In his first year in Boston he put up 20.0/8.4 on 55.9% TS in only 30.9 MPG. The man could score, clearly.
Right. And I firmly believe Rudy LaRusso from the Lakers of that same era who played the same position was as good or better than Howell. He had a 55 point game I recall. At precisely that same role (excellent scoring PF). Chick Hearn has expressed similarly thoughts on Rudy. But Rudy got stuck on non championship teams where Howell luckily wound up on the Celtics juggernaut - Follow me?

RRR3

11-01-2019, 07:24 PM

"PRIME" Kobe missed 16 games and played rest of the season hurt as well as did Odom and their head coach had to resign as they were 24-19 that season. You really just told me that Caron and Odom are better than Big Z and Boozer lmao. Just stop posting.
2005 Lakers when Kobe played: 28-38, 42.4% win rate. He wasn

RRR3

11-01-2019, 07:24 PM

Right. And I firmly believe Rudy LaRusso from the Lakers of that same era who played the same position was as good or better than Howell. He had a 55 point game I recall. At precisely that same role (excellent scoring PF). Chick Hearn has expressed similarly thoughts on Rudy. But Rudy got stuck on non championship teams where Howell luckily wound up on the Celtics juggernaut - Follow me?
Maybe so but he was much less efficient.

superduper

11-01-2019, 07:25 PM

1a. Bran
1b. Durant

Nashty

11-01-2019, 07:27 PM

Kobe Bryant's Regular Season Win Percentage = .662

Lakers Win Percentage Without Kobe Bryant = .604 (95 games)

Most help ever.

hiphopanonymous

11-01-2019, 07:27 PM

Maybe so but he was much less efficient.
Efficiency is a paper stat ... watching their game tape LaRusso is an excellent and versatile offensive piece. As was Howell of course but still I don

RRR3

11-01-2019, 07:28 PM

Efficiency is a paper stat ... watching their game tape LaRusso is an excellent and versatile offensive piece. As was Howell of course but still I don’t get into stat chasing especially efficiency from that era, it wasn’t “pace and space” like today it was up tempo and free form - Rudy could create his own shot he was a solid offensive player
I’m not saying he wasn’t good, I would just have favored Howell offensively based on their stats which is all I have to go by.

ImKobe

11-01-2019, 07:32 PM

2005 Lakers when Kobe played: 28-38, 42.4% win rate. He wasn’t leading them anywhere :oldlol:

And yes Butler and Odom are better than Big Z :biggums: You’d rather have a plodding center than a versatile do it all kinda guy like Odom or a talented wing like Butler? :lol

As for Boozer, like I said he wasn’t in his prime with LeBron.

???

They were in the Playoffs before Kobe got injured, he came back hurt and then Odom was out and they didn't have their HC so they tanked the season for a lottery pick.

Big Z gave them elite rim protection while putting up 15/8 a game in just 30 mpg from 02-09. Odom often made bone-headed plays that cost our teams and wasn't that consistent until later in his career. Lakers would have won more games in the mid-2000s if you swapped the two players.

Caron Butler gets overrated for the couple 20 ppg seasons he had while playing 40 mpg in Washington, he was a wing player who wasn't that great on defense or from three, he could get points but he never had great impact, he was slightly above-average for a couple seasons in his prime.

Ilgauskas would have been a 20/10 big with Kobe, he wasn't that great of a fit offensively with Lebron.

hiphopanonymous

11-01-2019, 07:34 PM

[QUOTE=RRR3]I

RRR3

11-01-2019, 07:39 PM

???

They were in the Playoffs before Kobe got injured, he came back hurt and then Odom was out and they didn't have their HC so they tanked the season for a lottery pick.

Big Z gave them elite rim protection while putting up 15/8 a game in just 30 mpg from 02-09. Odom often made bone-headed plays that cost our teams and wasn't that consistent until later in his career. Lakers would have won more games in the mid-2000s if you swapped the two players.

Caron Butler gets overrated for the couple 20 ppg seasons he had while playing 40 mpg in Washington, he was a wing player who wasn't that great on defense or from three, he could get points but he never had great impact, he was slightly above-average for a couple seasons in his prime.

Ilgauskas would have been a 20/10 big with Kobe, he wasn't that great of a fit offensively with Lebron.
Caron Butler put up a 4.7 BPM in 07. Odom had a BPM of over 3 6 times, peaking at 4.6.

Big Z wasn

ImKobe

11-01-2019, 07:49 PM

Caron Butler put up a 4.7 BPM in 07. Odom had a BPM of over 3 6 times, peaking at 4.6.

Big Z wasn’t capable of that. His best was 2.0 (two times. Once without LeBron once with him).

BPM isn’t the best stat but it’s worth considering. I would guess impact stats support those two being better as well.

Use your head. What was the biggest weaknesses for the Lakers in the mid-2000s? Interior defense and 3-point shooting. It's not a coincidence that they were contenders as soon as Bynum developed into a rim protector and when they traded for Gasol, rest of the roster was virtually the same with Fisher replacing Smush.

You can give me box scores all day but I'd rather have a rim protector who can put up 15 points in 30 mpg vs. a Butler who needs 40 minutes to score 20 and who couldn't shoot the three, he's just not a great fit with Kobe.

Uncle Drew

11-01-2019, 07:58 PM

1. Duncan
2. Magic
3. Lebron
4. Shaq
5. Bird

These guys had loaded rosters for almost their entire career.
:roll:

RRR3

11-01-2019, 07:59 PM

:roll:
As a lifelong Cavs fan, who was better Big Z or Odom? How about Big Z or Caron Butler?

SouBeachTalents

11-01-2019, 08:05 PM

RRR3

11-01-2019, 08:10 PM

Better question would be, which superstar played with the least amount of help in NBA history

My nominee: Tracy McGrady. Had a WOAT level, shockingly awful team in Orlando, then had a talented, but ultimately injury plagued Yao in Houston
:applause: :applause: :applause:

It’s worth noting that most of his years with Yao were when he was past his prime. T-Mac at his best from 01-05 and especially 01-03.