Lebron will still need two MORE seasons of 29+ PER to catch MJ in PER

[3ball]

still #1 PPG
still #1 efficiency rating
still #1 WS/48
still #1 rings in the modern era as "the man"

enjoy your fake goat.. :rockon:.. (even with AD's elevation of a late-career Lebron, Lebron will still fall short of the goat efficiency rating)

[Turbo Slayer]

Op in shambles. More like Op will become irrelevant after LeBron retires... But wait a minute OP will hate on Zion next. See if my prediction is right. :cheers:

[3ball]

Op in shambles. More like Op will become irrelevant after LeBron retires... But wait a minute OP will hate on Zion next. See if my prediction is right. :cheers:
#1 PER = goat

and #1 rings as the man = goat

so MJ goat

and 6 rings in the Big 2 era (2020 format)

[StrongLurk]

Am I the only one who is confused by the pride of these super MJ stans like OP?

Like wow, your favorite player is the GOAT...which makes it super easy to make "arguments" for. This is the part I don't understand. They take such pride in making the easiest arguments possible.


Wow you stan the GOAT? How brave of you.

[Turbo Slayer]

Am I the only one who is confused by the pride of these super MJ stans like OP?

Like wow, your favorite player is the GOAT...which makes it super easy to make "arguments" for. This is the part I don't understand. They take such pride in making the easiest arguments possible.


Wow you stan the GOAT? How brave of you.
Yes. Question for 3ball: what other players you Stan beside MJ :rolleyes:

[Manny98]

They're pretty much neck to neck in PER and WS/48

But LeBron shits on MJ in career win shares and VORP it's a joke

So overall LeBron is more impressive statistically due to the sheer gap he has over MJ in terms of longevity whilst achieving equal peak play to MJ

All he needs is 1 or 2 more rings to go with his GOAT longevity and it's a wrap

[3ball]

Yes. Question for 3ball: what other players you Stan beside MJ :rolleyes:
Ingram

Watch how good he gets

Pierce back in the day.. kobe (I hated him and admired him)..

various other guys that I took moves from, like nick van exel's or arenas' in-out gather step dribble.. so I appreciated individual guys for various things..

but obviously, no 6'6" player had big hands like MJ - it was always taller players - and no one had his hangtime, drop-step ability (at that size or shorter), mid range shooting, 0-3 dribble scoring ability, quickness (at that size or taller), or fadeaway (aka jumpshot).. that's a lot

and no one ever averaged 10+ assists without bringing the ball up the court (playing PG) like MJ did in 1991 Finals.. MJ was goat at everything, when he chose to be - you think it was coincidence that he averaged that many assists against Magic?.. MJ simply dialed up his passing to his max ability in that series to match Magic, and he did so within the system so the team wasn't hindered

[Turbo Slayer]

Ingram

Watch how good he gets

Pierce back in the day.. kobe (I hated him and admired him)..

various other guys that I took moves from, like nick van exel's or arenas' in-out gather step dribble.. so I appreciated individual guys for various things..

d
Why Stan Pierce? Tho. Cool tho. :applause: Kobe is a replica of MJ.

[PeroAntic]

Am I the only one who is confused by the pride of these super MJ stans like OP?

Like wow, your favorite player is the GOAT...which makes it super easy to make "arguments" for. This is the part I don't understand. They take such pride in making the easiest arguments possible.


Wow you stan the GOAT? How brave of you.
Thats why I stan DRose. true underdog, people's champion.

[StrongLurk]

Thats why I stan DRose. true underdog, people's champion.

:bowdown:

I'm mostly talking about the fact that OP ONLY stans MJ...it's pathetic honestly.

Everyone on this board usually stans multiples players at least...but apparently OP is "in his early 40's" and still only talks about and stans a player who retired basically 20 years ago.

[3ball]

They're pretty much neck to neck in PER and WS/48

But LeBron shits on MJ in career win shares and VORP it's a joke


VORP is an accumulative stat based on games played - that's why Lebron has more VORP than MJ for their careers

Nonetheless, MJ is still #2 all-time in VORP and BPM, and #1 in PER and WS/48 - so only MJ is #1 or #2 in the 4 primary advanced boxscore stats (PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP).. plus he leads in PPG by a mile, and rings as "the man" by a mile.. so he's goat

[Akeem34TheDream]

Was this thread really necessary? Can't you see that most of them are trolling? You do have some SERIOUS problems.

[3ball]

Why Stan Pierce? Tho. Cool tho. :applause: Kobe is a replica of MJ.
Pierce had a tough mentality (opposite of Lebron) and an elite repertoire/scoring versatility (unlike Lebron)

[Akeem34TheDream]

Am I the only one who is confused by the pride of these super MJ stans like OP?

Like wow, your favorite player is the GOAT...which makes it super easy to make "arguments" for. This is the part I don't understand. They take such pride in making the easiest arguments possible.


Wow you stan the GOAT? How brave of you.
He is sick.

[PeroAntic]

:bowdown:

I'm mostly talking about the fact that OP ONLY stans MJ...it's pathetic honestly.

Everyone on this board usually stans multiples players at least...but apparently OP is "in his early 40's" and still only talks about and stans a player who retired basically 20 years ago.
Yeah its a bit sad. He still cant see that his tirades lead only to backfire effect.

[StrongLurk]

Pierce had a tough mentality (opposite of Lebron) and an elite repertoire/scoring versatility (unlike Lebron)

OP is such a pathetic troll.

Never see someone so scared of Lebron.

I am almost to the point of believing that OP is Jeff himself.

[SouBeachTalents]

Am I the only one who is confused by the pride of these super MJ stans like OP?

Like wow, your favorite player is the GOAT...which makes it super easy to make "arguments" for. This is the part I don't understand. They take such pride in making the easiest arguments possible.


Wow you stan the GOAT? How brave of you.
And he of course completely avoids this post too :lol

[bigkingsfan]

That would make Lebron at worst, 2nd all time...

[3ball]

And he of course completely avoids this post too :lol
There's nothing to say - a couple years ago, he was saying Lebron was the goat.

Now he knows more via ISH and realizes that he isn't

So 3ball wins

[Uncle Drew]

1-9.

[Hey Yo]

VORP is an accumulative stat based on games played - that's why Lebron has more VORP than MJ for their careers

Nonetheless, MJ is still #2 all-time in VORP and BPM, and #1 in PER and WS/48 - so only MJ is #1 or #2 in the 4 primary advanced boxscore stats (PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP).. plus he leads in PPG by a mile, and rings as "the man" by a mile.. so he's goat
Sounds like a MJ problem.

Maybe if he wouldn't have unnecessarily quit the league twice he'd have played more games.

[3ball]

Sounds like a MJ problem.

Maybe if he wouldn't have unnecessarily quit the league twice he'd have played more games.
The Lebron problem is much bigger - MJ leads in PPG by a mile, efficiency rating, and rings as "the man" by a mile

and only MJ is #1 or #2 in the 4 primary advanced boxscore stats (PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP), while setting the record for plus-minus in 1996 (before Curry broke the mark in 16')..

so he's goat - goat raw stats (PPG), goat advanced stats (PER, plus-minus), goat rings as the man and accolades.. :confusedshrug:
.

[Rico2016]

1st 6900 LBJ
.
.
.
.
.
2nd 5900 MJ

[Hey Yo]

The Lebron problem is much bigger - MJ leads in PPG by a mile, efficiency rating, and rings as "the man" by a mile

and only MJ is #1 or #2 in the 4 primary advanced boxscore stats (PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP), while setting the record for plus-minus in 1996 (before Curry broke the mark in 16')..

so he's goat - goat raw stats (PPG), goat advanced stats (PER, plus-minus), goat rings as the man and accolades.. :confusedshrug:
.
You need to make adjustments above. Anything MJ accumulated after 1993 is null and void.

No other greats before or after MJ took time off to rest and heal physically and mentally. He had a huge advantage after doing so.

[StrongLurk]

And he of course completely avoids this post too :lol

All he can do is troll about it. It's a shame.

[Turbo Slayer]

You need to make adjustments above. Anything MJ accumulated after 1993 is null and void.

No other greats before or after MJ took time off to rest and heal physically and mentally. He had a huge advantage after doing so.
true

[3ball]

You need to make adjustments above. Anything MJ accumulated after 1993 is null and void.

No other greats before or after MJ took time off to rest and heal physically and mentally. He had a huge advantage after doing so.
if we only look at thru 1993, MJ is still tied for rings as the man, while leading PPG, efficiency rating, BPM and plus-minus by bigger margins than he does now.. he'd also be the goat perimeter defender (MJ was #2 in DPOY for 1993, while Pippen didn't rank)

[Rico2016]

1st 6900 LBJ
.
.
.
.
.
2nd 5900 MJ

Care to address? Zzz

[Gus Hemmingway]

Jordan would still need to come out of retirement, and score 1200 playoff points to catch LeBron in playoff scoring :lol


Now... what seems more likely, LeBron having 2 more 29+ PER seasons, or Jordan coming out of retirement and scoring 1000+ more playoff points? :lol

[BarberSchool]

OP, even if Brtan gets 5 more seasons of 30+ PER, NO ONE who knows the game will ever place him equal with MJ, much less above. It's a wrap son. Dude is not at all in the running for GOAT> Never was after 2011. You think Mike would have ever had these 4th quarter numbers in ANY finals?

http:www.imgur.com/a/ykZLt9u

[sdot_thadon]

Yes. Question for 3ball: what other players you Stan beside MJ :rolleyes:
Lebron obviously.:oldlol:

[CTbasketball92]

VORP is an accumulative stat based on games played - that's why Lebron has more VORP than MJ for their careers

Nonetheless, MJ is still #2 all-time in VORP and BPM, and #1 in PER and WS/48 - so only MJ is #1 or #2 in the 4 primary advanced boxscore stats (PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP).. plus he leads in PPG by a mile, and rings as "the man" by a mile.. so he's goat

You see, this is the thing. I think APEX MJ might be better than APEX LeBron, but if LeBron is a top 5 player for 20 years and had a peak as good or close to as good as MJ's, you can easily make an argument for LeBron >>> MJ. That's soprt of what something like VORP can capture.

Pretty much all advanced stats and the nature of the game point towards these two being 1a and 1b depending on what you value.

I think it's just a matter of preference.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Jordan would still need to come out of retirement, and score 1200 playoff points to catch LeBron in playoff scoring :lol


Now... what seems more likely, LeBron having 2 more 29+ PER seasons, or Jordan coming out of retirement and scoring 1000+ more playoff points? :lol



Not in playoff PPG, which is the only stat that matters.
Just because Lebron had the advantage of playing best of 7 series in the 1st round and let teams like Indy take him to 7 games constantly doesn't make him great.


Jordan put teams away in the playoffs. 6-0 with 0 game 7 finals. Lebron has 0 game winning / go ahead shots in the finals, and has an abysmal 18-31 finals games record. The most games you can lose in 9 finals is 36 total games (9x4) and Lebron has lost 31. Think about that.


Lebron has never won a ring in a full NBA season without a bailout shot by a teammate. Think about that too.:biggums:

[knicksman]

Am I the only one who is confused by the pride of these super MJ stans like OP?

Like wow, your favorite player is the GOAT...which makes it super easy to make "arguments" for. This is the part I don't understand. They take such pride in making the easiest arguments possible.


Wow you stan the GOAT? How brave of you.

like you guys arent the same. Just chose the player with the best stats and cite triple doubles against those who argues with you.

[knicksman]

You see, this is the thing. I think APEX MJ might be better than APEX LeBron, but if LeBron is a top 5 player for 20 years and had a peak as good or close to as good as MJ's, you can easily make an argument for LeBron >>> MJ. That's soprt of what something like VORP can capture.

Pretty much all advanced stats and the nature of the game point towards these two being 1a and 1b depending on what you value.

I think it's just a matter of preference.

Why do you guys value longetivity so much? Its like valuing FGA. FGA means nothing if it doesnt go in.

[3ball]

You see, this is the thing. I think APEX MJ might be better than APEX LeBron,


MJ's career PER peaked at over 30+ I believe, while Lebron's peaked at 28 or something like that - there was a great thread on it - Jordan's peak is easily better than Lebron's by most measures

Even his peak APG is even equal or better than Lebron's:

- 36.3 ppg and 7.9 apg in 91-93' Finals vs 27.0 and 7.2 for Lebron in 12/13/16
- 33.7 and 6.6 in 91-93 playoffs vs 27.2 and 7.2 for Lebron in 12/13/16

heck, MJ is the only player ever to average 10+ apg without playing PG (aka, bringing the ball up the court - 91' Finals).. Finally, if you're saying MJ "might" have a better peak, than he easily did... :oldlol:.. and that's what the stats say anyway





but if LeBron is a top 5 player for 20 years and had a peak as good or close to as good as MJ's, you can easily make an argument for LeBron >>> MJ.


Longevity without championships starts to work against Lebron - the more seasons he plays with only 3 rings starts to prove MY theory that there's something championship-proof about his game (aka, he's a cp3/nash-level skillset that avoided the career-losing fate of his fellow ball-dominators by team-hopping for the extra talent the style needs to win).. Ultimately, every other top 10 player who played anywhere near that long had a lot more rings, except Wilt I guess.





That's sort of what something like VORP can capture.

Pretty much all advanced stats and the nature of the game point towards these two being 1a and 1b depending on what you value.

I think it's just a matter of preference.


No it isn't

MJ wins raw stats - huge PPG lead on everyone in history, especially in playoffs and Finals; 10 scoring titles

MJ wins advanced - MJ set the record for plus-minus in 96' and only MJ is top 2 in the four primary advanced boxscore stats (PER/VORP/BPM/WS48)

So MJ wins stats.. :confusedshrug:

[Turbo Slayer]

I love LeBron. He is truly the GOAT! :rockon:

:applause:

LeThanos.

:banana:

Good post, 3ball.

[3ball]

:applause:

LeThanos.

:banana:

Good post, 3ball.
The OP meant to say that Lebron needs 2 more seasons of 29+ PER in addition to this season (assuming he keeps it up)

So 3 more seasons of 29+ PER to catch MJ in all-time PER... In other words - ain't happenin'... and therefore MJ wins the stats argument (or certainly can't lose it, especially considering scoring titles and ppg).. :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

looks like he won't even get 1 more season of 29+, let alone 3 more

so it's ova..

MJ will always be #1 in PPG, efficiency rating, and average win contribution (ws/48).. so that's #1 in scoring, efficiency, and winning.. aka GOAT

[Dray n Klay]

looks like he won't even get 1 more season of 29+, let alone 3 more

so it's ova..

MJ will always be #1 in PPG, efficiency rating, and average win contribution (ws/48).. so that's #1 in scoring, efficiency, and winning.. aka GOAT

But why only 4 rebounds and 2 assists??

[3ball]

But why only 4 rebounds and 2 assists??
because scoring, efficiency, and winning is more important... aka PPG, PER, WS/48

[GoSpursGo1984]

LeBron will never be better then MJ now repeat that 50 times