Is Luka Doncic the greatest 20 yrs old ever in NBA history?

[iamgine]

What do you think? He plays like a superstar vet in a 20 years old body.

[Mask the Embiid]

cringe

[Andrei89]

What do you think? He plays like a superstar vet in a 20 years old body.

I am all high up on Doncic, one of the best players in the league right now.

But lets not act like he is a rook coming out of college. This guy was balling on a professional team in Europe winning championships at the age of 17.

[Manny98]

Yep he's better than LeBron was at 20 and better than MJ was at 21

[brooks_thompson]

Are you Lebron23? The grammar has me suspicious

[Smook A.]

Are you Lebron23? The grammar has me suspicious
Nah Lebron23 wouldn't be making pro-Luka threads :lol

[TheMan]

Yep he's better than LeBron was at 20 and better than MJ was at 21
When LBJ was 20, the NBA still allowed defense...Luka has said that it's easier to score in the NBA than in the EuroLeague. Let that sink in :facepalm

[brutalBBQ]

Looks like it, isn't he beating were Magic was around the same age of their NBA careers.

Not sure about Mannys comment about being better than Jordan at 21. MJs rookie season stat wise is impressive.

[tontoz]

Too early to tell. Lets see how he holds up over the course of a season and the playoffs. Also it is easier to get stats now than it was in past eras.

Magic won the title at 20 and started at center in the final game of the Finals to replace Kareem and had a monster game. Lebron was a beast at 20.

Those are the only two I can think of that are legit competition to Doncic at age 20.

[Hey Yo]

Too early to tell. Lets see how he holds up over the course of a season and the playoffs. Also it is easier to get stats now than it was in past eras.

Magic won the title at 20 and started at center in the final game of the Finals to replace Kareem and had a monster game. Lebron was a beast at 20.

Those are the only two I can think of that are legit competition to Doncic at age 20.
He only started at Center for the tip-off. Then played Guard and Forward the remainder of the game.

It's a myth that Magic played C when he was on the floor.

[Manny98]

When LBJ was 20, the NBA still allowed defense...Luka has said that it's easier to score in the NBA than in the EuroLeague. Let that sink in :facepalm
20 year old Doncic is flat out a better basketball player than 21 year MJ that's a fact :oldlol:

[tontoz]

He only started at Center for the tip-off. Then played Guard and Forward the remainder of the game.

It's a myth that Magic played C when he was on the floor.


It isn't a myth that he had 42/15/7 and 3 steals (14 of 23 from the field, 14 of 14 from the foul line) in game 7 of the finals at age 20 against a stacked Philly team.

[DoctorP]

Yes! of all time!

[Hey Yo]

It isn't a myth that he had 42/15/7 and 3 steals (14 of 23 from the field, 14 of 14 from the foul line) in game 7 of the finals at age 20 against a stacked Philly team.
I realize that, but it wasn't from the Center position.

Plus, Jamaal Wilkes was LA's leading scorer that game (ended with 37pts) until some intentional fouls at the end of the game put Magic at the free throw line surpassing Wilkes.

[Kblaze8855]

He

[StrongLurk]

He's up there for sure. I would still take Lebron at this point.

[warriorfan]

It isn't a myth that he had 42/15/7 and 3 steals (14 of 23 from the field, 14 of 14 from the foul line) in game 7 of the finals at age 20 against a stacked Philly team.

lmao :applause:

[tontoz]

To give some perspective on statistical comparisons last year the average team, in this case Toronto, had 103 possessions per game. The slowest paced team had 100 possessions per game.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/possessions-per-game?date=2019-06-14

Going back to 2004 the average team had 93.5 possessions per game. The fastest team had 97 possessions which is 3 less than the slowest team last season.


https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/possessions-per-game?date=2004-06-16

[AlternativeAcc.]

He’s about as polished as any I’ve seen but today’s league makes it so hard to even compare historically which a question like this demands. Much as we hate on him now Carmelo at 20 was leading a 50 win team in the west. Luka has way better numbers but I don’t know how to translate the numbers.

Giannis is doing 29/14/8 on 59% shooting which is obviously an early season thing but....his numbers last year were unprecedented too. Hardens scoring has gone up 7 years in a row. He did 36 a game last year and is at 37 now.

A lot of numbers guys do today look weird compared to previous legends. We only giving the guys we like full credit for their numbers then going all “But he couldn’t do that in 01” on the rest?

Does doing Bird like numbers in 2019 make you Larry Bird?

I’d say no. Some say yes.

Hard to find the middle. Trae Young is gonna do better numbers than most HOF points were used to this year. That mean he’s better at 21 than prime Hardaway, Price, and Isiah Thomas?

We are all going to have to decide how much we credit the pace and space era production while we try to figure out where these young guys stand.
Here's a crazy concept... players have gotten better offensively :eek:


There's better talent and there's more of it. Simple.


Put Trae in the 80's and he's chucking 30 footers and averaging 35ppg, it's unstoppable in any era

[tontoz]

Here's a crazy concept... players have gotten better offensively :eek:


There's better talent and there's more of it. Simple.


Put Trae in the 80's and he's chucking 30 footers and averaging 35ppg, it's unstoppable in any era

You are overlooking the rules changes. For example pace increased about 3 possessions per game last year relative to the year before.

The reason is a rules change. After an offensive rebound the shot clock is reset to 14 instead of 24 previously leading to more possessions and more shot attempts. It has nothing to do with the skill of the players.

There have been several rules changes over the years making it easier to score.

It isn't a coincidence that Iverson had his highest scoring year ever at age 30 after they eliminated the hand check 15 years ago. It isn't a coincidence that Nash won 2 MVPs right after the rules change.

[hiphopanonymous]

Here's a crazy concept... players have gotten better offensively :eek:


There's better talent and there's more of it. Simple.


Put Trae in the 80's and he's chucking 30 footers and averaging 35ppg, it's unstoppable in any era
:oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

Here's a crazy concept... players have gotten better offensively :eek:


There's better talent and there's more of it. Simple.


Put Trae in the 80's and he's chucking 30 footers and averaging 35ppg, it's unstoppable in any era


The first time he misses a 30 footer with 17 seconds on the shot clock with a big having good post position he

[DoctorP]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]The first time he misses a 30 footer with 17 seconds on the shot clock with a big having good post position he

[iamgine]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]The first time he misses a 30 footer with 17 seconds on the shot clock with a big having good post position he

[kentatm]

This guy was balling on a professional team in Europe winning championships at the age of 17.

The bulk of ISH as recently as 5 years ago would have said that college ball is >>> EuroLeague.

:yaohappy:

[Kblaze8855]

In this case we have to assume he's allowed to do it because...well maybe he made 100/100 in practice or something and have a coach who understood the math. Just like you have to assume he somehow grew up like that and assume no injury. Not like it's unprecedented either. I mean, Pete Maravich was given a lot of leeway. Trae could be just as unique as Pete had he played back then.


Im sure Craig Hodges was wet in practice. He made 24 in a row in the 3 point shootout and nobody gave a shit when it was time to play real games. Abdul Rauf could make 100+ in a row in the 90s just like he does now in his 40s. They still didnt let him do it. Paul Westhead wouldnt give a shit. Like....at all. But there arent many. You cant blame coaches for doing the ONLY thing that had worked for most of their lives. It was play inside or lose. Now its shoot or lose. If you drop Kevin Mchale into this league on most teams...they arent gonna just let him black hole it for 2 points. Not like he did at least. Hed have to expand on his(already better than people think) shooting and mix it up.

The league leader in post ups gets like 9....and doesnt shoot most of them. Mchale cant be himself with 6 post touches a night. But hed have to figure something out.

The times only bend for the people who prove dominant the way they do it and im not sure Trae would get that chance before at least...the mid 90s.

Pistol Pete played wild relative to his times...but it was mostly his flair. Not shot selection. He mostly shot 12-20 footers. Hed be chastised for taking too many midrange shots today until he adjusted.....which he easily could. And even with the room he had to operate he wasnt considered nearly as good as we consider him in retrospect. The Hawks wanted to trade him for like 2 years and couldnt get anyone to take him. The only way they got rid of him was his college area getting the Jazz and needing him to sell tickets for the expansion team. Players...coaches....GMs....they thought he was too wild even when his shots went in.

They are gonna take Trae Young shooting literal 32 footers off the dribble?

Hed be a good player....just have to play differently. Especially at his age. Those old vets wouldnt stand for some of this. Pistol Pete didnt shoot those shots and still got in fights with teammates. Literal fights. His coach Cotton(who was one of the more forward thinkers in terms of running and letting guys be themselves) hated him. Pete got suspended over fights with him too.

You had to defer to the bigs back then....or at least the forwards. Trae could figure something out im sure....but he cant just come down and launch a 30+ footer for a laugh like he sometimes does now. You cant pull that shit on those old school bigs and coaches. Someone would literally punch him in the face.

[Nashty]

Yes. Right now he has better BPM and PER than any other 20 year old ever, and these are pace adjusted stats. And he also plays more mature than any 20 year old ever, and is a leader of a winning team that has no other stars (Porzingis is not playing like a star)

[iamgine]

Im sure Craig Hodges was wet in practice. He made 24 in a row in the 3 point shootout and nobody gave a shit when it was time to play real games. Abdul Rauf could make 100+ in a row in the 90s just like he does now in his 40s. They still didnt let him do it. Paul Westhead wouldnt give a shit. Like....at all. But there arent many. You cant blame coaches for doing the ONLY thing that had worked for most of their lives. It was play inside or lose. Now its shoot or lose. If you drop Kevin Mchale into this league on most teams...they arent gonna just let him black hole it for 2 points. Not like he did at least. Hed have to expand on his(already better than people think) shooting and mix it up.

The league leader in post ups gets like 9....and doesnt shoot most of them. Mchale cant be himself with 6 post touches a night. But hed have to figure something out.

The times only bend for the people who prove dominant the way they do it and im not sure Trae would get that chance before at least...the mid 90s.

Pistol Pete played wild relative to his times...but it was mostly his flair. Not shot selection. He mostly shot 12-20 footers. Hed be chastised for taking too many midrange shots today until he adjusted.....which he easily could. And even with the room he had to operate he wasnt considered nearly as good as we consider him in retrospect. The Hawks wanted to trade him for like 2 years and couldnt get anyone to take him. The only way they got rid of him was his college area getting the Jazz and needing him to sell tickets for the expansion team. Players...coaches....GMs....they thought he was too wild even when his shots went in.

They are gonna take Trae Young shooting literal 32 footers off the dribble?

Hed be a good player....just have to play differently. Especially at his age. Those old vets wouldnt stand for some of this. Pistol Pete didnt shoot those shots and still got in fights with teammates. Literal fights. His coach Cotton(who was one of the more forward thinkers in terms of running and letting guys be themselves) hated him. Pete got suspended over fights with him too.

You had to defer to the bigs back then....or at least the forwards. Trae could figure something out im sure....but he cant just come down and launch a 30+ footer for a laugh like he sometimes does now. You cant pull that shit on those old school bigs and coaches. Someone would literally punch him in the face.
Well that's why I said to assume. It's really not out of logic that a coach would see this guy launching up threes and winning basketball games. And then Trae convincing him that this is a good way to win. Guys back then didn't have that mentality in real games. Not one of them had that mentality, they're not used to it.

About Mchale, I'm sure even today a few teams would give him a chance to blackhole it since he's so dominant in there. If he does well then I don't see why they won't continue to use him that way.

[ralph_i_el]

Im sure Craig Hodges was wet in practice. He made 24 in a row in the 3 point shootout and nobody gave a shit when it was time to play real games. Abdul Rauf could make 100+ in a row in the 90s just like he does now in his 40s. They still didnt let him do it. Paul Westhead wouldnt give a shit. Like....at all. But there arent many. You cant blame coaches for doing the ONLY thing that had worked for most of their lives. It was play inside or lose. Now its shoot or lose. If you drop Kevin Mchale into this league on most teams...they arent gonna just let him black hole it for 2 points. Not like he did at least. Hed have to expand on his(already better than people think) shooting and mix it up.

The league leader in post ups gets like 9....and doesnt shoot most of them. Mchale cant be himself with 6 post touches a night. But hed have to figure something out.

The times only bend for the people who prove dominant the way they do it and im not sure Trae would get that chance before at least...the mid 90s.

Pistol Pete played wild relative to his times...but it was mostly his flair. Not shot selection. He mostly shot 12-20 footers. Hed be chastised for taking too many midrange shots today until he adjusted.....which he easily could. And even with the room he had to operate he wasnt considered nearly as good as we consider him in retrospect. The Hawks wanted to trade him for like 2 years and couldnt get anyone to take him. The only way they got rid of him was his college area getting the Jazz and needing him to sell tickets for the expansion team. Players...coaches....GMs....they thought he was too wild even when his shots went in.

They are gonna take Trae Young shooting literal 32 footers off the dribble?

Hed be a good player....just have to play differently. Especially at his age. Those old vets wouldnt stand for some of this. Pistol Pete didnt shoot those shots and still got in fights with teammates. Literal fights. His coach Cotton(who was one of the more forward thinkers in terms of running and letting guys be themselves) hated him. Pete got suspended over fights with him too.

You had to defer to the bigs back then....or at least the forwards. Trae could figure something out im sure....but he cant just come down and launch a 30+ footer for a laugh like he sometimes does now. You cant pull that shit on those old school bigs and coaches. Someone would literally punch him in the face.


All this is true, but then someone came along and showed them another way. Maybe sending Trae back in time jump-starts that process :confusedshrug:

If Steph Curry was never born, would the style of play in the modern NBA be different? I think so.

[CodeBreaker]

He's going to be better than MJ and Bron

[ralph_i_el]

Does doing Bird like numbers in 2019 make you Larry Bird?




1980's Celtics teams were running at over 100 pace. If the modern nba is an inflated stats era, so was the 80's right?

Bird Per-100 possessions:
https://i.imgur.com/ynEGGFV.png

Doncic Per-100

https://i.imgur.com/MpQFbpw.png

[tontoz]

Let's not forget it is a long season. He has only played 7 games. It is too early to call him the greatest 20 year old ever.

Having said that I have watched a couple of their games and he has been very impressive. IMO his skills are better than Lebron's at the same age. Lebron was the better athlete, although I do think Doncic is more athletic than he gets credit for.

For the record Bird was 23 as a rookie.

[FireDavidKahn]

I am all high up on Doncic, one of the best players in the league right now.

But lets not act like he is a rook coming out of college. This guy was balling on a professional team in Europe winning championships at the age of 17.
Which means absolutely nothing. Ricky Rubio was playing professional ball when he was 16 years old.

[FireDavidKahn]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]He

[FireDavidKahn]

Triple double.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3ofSBs4Q1f8Q4aRFkc/giphy.gif

[72-10]

honestly it's Dwight

[iamgine]

We have to call this in right?

[stalkerforlife]

Well, um, yeah.

[Round Mound]

I think he is going to be great. He has more court savy than Lebron at age 20. He is not as athletic as Lebron (neither was Bird) and he does get alot of easy paths to the basket cause of the rule changes making the penetrators have an easy time by eliminating hand checking. His passing is as good as Lebron or better at that age His b-ball iq is better than anyone at that age. His long range shooting is better than Lebron. His rebounding is as good and his defense is ok but not great (Lebron's was better some 4-5 years ago). I think he he deserves to be selected to the all star game this season.

[brain drain]

I think he is going to be great. He has more court savy than Lebron at age 20. He is not as athletic as Lebron (neither was Bird) and he does get alot of easy paths to the basket cause of the rule changes making the penetrators have an easy time by eliminating hand checking.

It's not that driving to the basket is generally super easy for everyone.
The thing is just that Luka's been ridciulously effective at it this year, clearly better than anyone else.

Look at this:
https://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?sort=DRIVE_FG_PCT&dir=1&CF=DRIVE_FGA*GE*3:GP*GE*5

Luka has an FG% of 68.8 on drives.

Among all players with at least 3 FGA per game on drives and 5 games played this season, the next best are Gordon Hayward at 63.4 and Derrick Rose at 60.0.

Giannis is at 55.9%
Harden is at 55.4%
Lebron's at 54.7%
Westbrook's at 53.1%

So Luka's got 5% and 9% higher FGA at driving to the basket than the next two guys and a whopping 13-16% better than the guys who are generally considered to be the best at this type of play.

This is not about "driving is generally easy". This season, Luka's been absolutely killing it in that regard, and he's been much better at it than everybody else.

I don't know if he can keep it up. But even if he slips a bit, being around 60% was usually good enough to be best or at least almost best in the league.

And it's even plausible that it might get easier for him if / when Porzingis turns it around and improves floor spacing for them.


His passing is as good as Lebron or better at that age His b-ball iq is better than anyone at that age. His long range shooting is better than Lebron. His rebounding is as good and his defense is ok but not great (Lebron's was better some 4-5 years ago). I think he he deserves to be selected to the all star game this season.

Going by his play so far, "deserves to be selected" is a massive understatement.

He's not "going to be great", he's already great right now.

The only question is if he can keep it up.