Navigational Efficiency

[FKAri]

3ball get in here and explain this Nascar lingo to all of us living outside Arkansas.

[3ball]

.
TLDR: Good navigation efficiency involves taking the maximum number of steps with the least dribbles (efficient dribbling), while navigating around the court.

There was a thread on it here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360900)



http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/1-16-2016/Sz00ti.gif


Navigation Efficiency - how did Iverson get from the 3-point line, all the way to the rim in one dribble?

He did it using what I like to call "navigation efficiency", which is taking the maximum number of steps, with the least number of dribbles - this is something players in the 60's were not allowed to do because the ref would call a travel or carry...

In the GIF above of Iverson, he takes 1 dribble and 3 steps - this is standard footwork in the modern eras (post-1980)... but if Iverson had to take an extra dribble here, he would not have generated nearly as much momentum, and the play would not have been as athletic.

In the 60's, to abide by the strict dribbling rules at the time, every player would take an extra dribble in the GIF above (oscar might take several extra dribbles)... This is huge - because when you DON'T take that extra dribble - when you AREN'T slowed down by having to dribble, you are RUNNING, so you can generate better momentum leading up to and on the takeoff - this is the seminal concept and advantage of the "gather step" (3 steps, 1 dribble.. formerly a travel, now legal)

When you have to take an extra dribble (prior eras), it slows you down and you lose momentum and explosion going up for the shot - this is the case with ALL dribbling moves, not just the one above.

This is THE reason why players in the 60's appear less athletic - they simply weren't allowed to do the same moves today's players are allowed to do - if you aren't allowed to do the same moves, how can you make equally athletic plays?... the less stringent travelling and carrying rules that began in the 80's allowed players to be navigation-efficient and that efficiency allows them to gain better momentum leading up to and on the takeoff.

here's another one - jordan does the standard 1-dribble-3-step footwork - if jordan had to take an extra dribble here, he would not have generated the tremendous momentum he did to finish the play as explosively as he did... As you can see here, Jordan gets to RUN when he doesn't have to dribble, which generates more momentum and explosiveness than if was slowed down by having to take extra dribble(s).


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/1-16-2016/s-O0J9.gif

[brooks_thompson]

This isn't to take away from people analyzing these types of things, it's perfectly valid to break it down and admire it. I just find it funny the painstaking effort people take to explain this stuff when the players themselves are just doing it naturally by instinct.

[FKAri]

Looks pre-typed. There's no way Windows search could accommodate your data storage and access needs. Do you use an Oracle database?
EDIT - wait that was just the TL/DR :eek:

Anyways, if one succeeds through LeBrute force is His success not equivalent to one achieved via navigational efficiency?

[brooks_thompson]

Looks pre-typed. There's no way Windows search could accommodate your data storage and access needs. Do you use an Oracle database?
EDIT - wait that was just the TL/DR :eek:

Anyways, if one succeeds through LeBrute force is His success not equivalent to one achieved via navigational efficiency?

No because grace is admired over strength. Not saying it's right, sometimes brawn beats brains...but not in the minds of most basketball fans.

I understand you wanted to engage 3ball in trollish banter so I'll back off now.

[FKAri]

No because grace is admired over strength. Not saying it's right, sometimes brawn beats brains...but not in the minds of most basketball fans.

I understand you wanted to engage 3ball in trollish banter so I'll back off now.
Interesting. Brains over brawn, I understand. Stephen Hawking does have a compelling argument over Andre Drummond. But grace admired over brawn? Old school players don't seem too fond of Curry. Yet they love brawn. Le Brawn.

[hiphopanonymous]

I don't know why you guys rag on 3ball for shit that - regardless of how he phrases it vs how you'd phrase it - is actual textbook fundamentals. Maybe it's the way he says it? Idk

I've always practiced to get to the hoop on drives with 1 dribble from the 3 point line, and I notice people who don't get their shit pushed in or ball stripped on a regular basis and unless someone sat them down and explained what the hell was happening they end up clueless. Some of you are saying it's instinctive and needs no explanation or terminology but I totally disagree. As someone who learned the game late I had to really learn this stuff and it required deliberate efforts in practice before I got it down because it actually feels unorthodox at first - and some people I see never do this even if they've played as kids but weren't taught correctly. They're the ones that end up spot up shooters because they just can't drive properly without consequences.

[3ball]

Looks pre-typed. There's no way Windows search could accommodate your data storage and access needs. Do you use an Oracle database?

Anyways, if one succeeds through LeBrute force is His success not equivalent to one achieved via navigational efficiency?


Lebron has amazing navigation efficiency, particularly from a live-dribble

One of the best ever - I've always said he's great off-the-dribble.. but his skillset limits him to needing to start a live dribble to set up his shots and gather steps - that takes a lot longer and means he lacks certain footwork that would allow quicker scores playing off teammates (off-ball)..

But his one-leg takeoff gather step is goat - it's just that he can only get to it by starting a live dribble first, whereas MJ could set up a gather-step takeoff without needing any setup time or dribbles, particularly in the halfcourt and tight spaces - MJ would take 3 steps AND a hop-stop with 1 dribble - basically a gather-step plus a hop-step - it's pretty great, shown here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-12-2019/J7S6TP.gif) and here (https://im6.ezgif.com/tmp/ezgif-6-3555f81c7796.gif)

[hiphopanonymous]

I also notice 3ball mentioned 60's players had less freedom and this is absolutely also correct - for 2 reasons as far as I can tell;

The gather step has been relaxed over time (now its considered to happen extremely late - as "'Harden' step backs" have been completely invented today and couldn't even exist in the 90's let alone 60's gathers) and palming/carrying has been relaxed over time. Both of these allow players an opportunity to require less dribbling restrictions from end to end, or on dribble drives. Players today have as much freedom to throw the ball forward, chase it, and "gather" then football carry it to the hoop, as they've ever had. These rules continually relax, I've never seen ball handling rules get more strict. I think the officiating trend follows what fans want to see on this.

[brooks_thompson]

I don't know why you guys rag on 3ball for shit that - regardless of how he phrases it vs how you'd phrase it - is actual textbook fundamentals. Maybe it's the way he says it? Idk

I've always practiced to get to the hoop on drives with 1 dribble from the 3 point line, and I notice people who don't get their shit pushed in or ball stripped on a regular basis and unless someone sat them down and explained what the hell was happening they end up clueless. Some of you are saying it's instinctive and needs no explanation or terminology but I totally disagree. As someone who learned the game late I had to really learn this stuff and it required deliberate efforts in practice before I got it down because it actually feels unorthodox at first - and some people I see never do this even if they've played as kids but weren't taught correctly. They're the ones that end up spot up shooters because they just can't drive properly without consequences.

No one was bagging on 3ball (in this thread at least), but good post nonetheless. I admit my toss-off take was on the way shallow side; I just wanted to use it because I've fallen guilty to ISH's 'low-hanging fruit' ethos here lately.

There is definitely a ton of craft in dribble moves, and timing, especially timing. I never played 'real' basketball past first year in high school mostly because I had a shit attitude back then, but I definitely spent a lot of alone time practicing on rhythm and timing my steps with the dribble. I guess I've gotten to a point where I take that stuff for granted instead of appreciating it.

[Levity]

.
TLDR: Good navigation efficiency involves taking the maximum number of steps with the least dribbles (efficient dribbling), while navigating around the court.

There was a thread on it here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360900)



http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/1-16-2016/Sz00ti.gif


Navigation Efficiency - how did Iverson get from the 3-point line, all the way to the rim in one dribble?

He did it using what I like to call "navigation efficiency", which is taking the maximum number of steps, with the least number of dribbles - this is something players in the 60's were not allowed to do because the ref would call a travel or carry...

In the GIF above of Iverson, he takes 1 dribble and 3 steps - this is standard footwork in the modern eras (post-1980)... but if Iverson had to take an extra dribble here, he would not have generated nearly as much momentum, and the play would not have been as athletic.

In the 60's, to abide by the strict dribbling rules at the time, every player would take an extra dribble in the GIF above (oscar might take several extra dribbles)... This is huge - because when you DON'T take that extra dribble - when you AREN'T slowed down by having to dribble, you are RUNNING, so you can generate better momentum leading up to and on the takeoff - this is the seminal concept and advantage of the "gather step" (3 steps, 1 dribble.. formerly a travel, now legal)

When you have to take an extra dribble (prior eras), it slows you down and you lose momentum and explosion going up for the shot - this is the case with ALL dribbling moves, not just the one above.

This is THE reason why players in the 60's appear less athletic - they simply weren't allowed to do the same moves today's players are allowed to do - if you aren't allowed to do the same moves, how can you make equally athletic plays?... the less stringent travelling and carrying rules that began in the 80's allowed players to be navigation-efficient and that efficiency allows them to gain better momentum leading up to and on the takeoff.

here's another one - jordan does the standard 1-dribble-3-step footwork - if jordan had to take an extra dribble here, he would not have generated the tremendous momentum he did to finish the play as explosively as he did... As you can see here, Jordan gets to RUN when he doesn't have to dribble, which generates more momentum and explosiveness than if was slowed down by having to take extra dribble(s).


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/1-16-2016/s-O0J9.gif

tldr?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxfJw8LeSuY

[StrongLurk]

Lebron has amazing navigation efficiency, particularly from a live-dribble

One of the best ever - I've always said he's great off-the-dribble.. but his skillset limits him to needing to start a live dribble to set up his shots and gather steps - that takes a lot longer and means he lacks certain footwork that would allow quicker scores playing off teammates (off-ball)..

But his one-leg takeoff gather step is goat - it's just that he can only get to it by starting a live dribble first, whereas MJ could set up a gather-step takeoff without needing any setup time or dribbles, particularly in the halfcourt and tight spaces - MJ would take 3 steps AND a hop-stop with 1 dribble - basically a gather-step plus a hop-step - it's pretty great, shown here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-12-2019/J7S6TP.gif) and here (https://im6.ezgif.com/tmp/ezgif-6-3555f81c7796.gif)

This is legit the first 3ball post I've ever seen where he says something positive about Lebron in some form or fashion.

[hiphopanonymous]

No one was bagging on 3ball (in this thread at least), but good post nonetheless. I admit my toss-off take was on the way shallow side; I just wanted to use it because I've fallen guilty to ISH's 'low-hanging fruit' ethos here lately.

There is definitely a ton of craft in dribble moves, and timing, especially timing. I never played 'real' basketball past first year in high school mostly because I had a shit attitude back then, but I definitely spent a lot of alone time practicing on rhythm and timing my steps with the dribble. I guess I've gotten to a point where I take that stuff for granted instead of appreciating it.
I hear ya. I think maybe because I was an adult when I learned the game I tend to think little details on fundamentals can't be overstated enough. I notice things I've had to learn late that many players should know better but ignore like take-off points for layups and number of dribbles it should take to get to the hoop and I see first hand how they matter due to the before/after nature of how I played when I implemented them. The difference between stretching your stride/dribbles/launch point and not doing that can be the difference between never successfully driving in games to being unstoppable at getting to the hoop.

[SpaceJam2]

Arkansas? No wonder this guy is so tied up with Michael Jordan. He has nothing else in his life :lol