Will failing to win the ring this year be Lebron's biggest failure aside from 2011?

[3ball]

I think so - everyone says the Lakers are a complete (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fkI3Vjvo8sc) team and have the best duo in basketball

So this will be a culmination of his prior failures when he lost as the favorite (09, 10), failed to 3-peat despite even odds (14'), lost with a super-team that had enough talent to win (17'), or his team lost when he was on the floor (net negative in 13' Finals)

[RRR3]

Ban OP. End the spamming.

[STATUTORY]

Ban OP. End the spamming.

:roll: :roll: Bran stans when spotting a 3ball thread on the front page:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CloseBackAnt-size_restricted.gif

"damn not again"

[DMAVS41]

Complete team?

They are seriously lacking shooting.

KCP/Bradley/Caruso/Rondo are all, at least so far, unable to convert 3's at an acceptable rate.

I'd say a team that lacks 3 point shooting in this era by definition could not be called complete.

[IllegalD]

Complete team?

They are seriously lacking shooting.

KCP/Bradley/Caruso/Rondo are all, at least so far, unable to convert 3's at an acceptable rate.

I'd say a team that lacks 3 point shooting in this era by definition could not be called complete.

Pathetic how you fellate LeBron. Shouldn't you be jerking off to Doncic highlights? :lol

[PickernRoller]

This thread has potential.

[PickernRoller]

:roll: :roll: Bran stans when spotting a 3ball thread on the front page:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CloseBackAnt-size_restricted.gif

"damn not again"

:roll: :roll:

[ImKobe]

:roll: :roll: Bran stans when spotting a 3ball thread on the front page:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CloseBackAnt-size_restricted.gif

"damn not again"

:roll: got em :roll:

[Manny98]

1-9

[DMAVS41]

Pathetic how you fellate LeBron. Shouldn't you be jerking off to Doncic highlights? :lol

Yes, pointing out that the team lacks shooting...in an era in which there might not be something more important...is just crazy.

Great comment.

Anything else?

[Smoke117]

And, yet, if Lakers do win, this knucklehead will give all the credit to Anthony Davis. Funny how if they lose, though, LeBron will be the big failure. You're so transparently pathetic.

[Turbo Slayer]

And, yet, if Lakers do win, this knucklehead will give all the credit to Anthony Davis. Funny how if they lose, though, LeBron will be the big failure. You're so transparently pathetic.
:applause:

[Manny98]

Pathetic how you fellate LeBron. Shouldn't you be jerking off to Doncic highlights? :lol
Shouldn't you be out catching more fish :oldlol:

[egokiller]

:roll: :roll: Bran stans when spotting a 3ball thread on the front page:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CloseBackAnt-size_restricted.gif

"damn not again"

Every time. :lol

Imagine being that upset over facts being posted about Lebron every single day of your life. :oldlol:

[egokiller]

Shouldn't you be out catching more fish :oldlol:

Don

[PickernRoller]

Miserable. :(

[3ball]

And, yet, if Lakers do win, this knucklehead will give all the credit to Anthony Davis. Funny how if they lose, though, LeBron will be the big failure. You're so transparently pathetic.
If the Lakers go from lottery to championship after the addition of AD, then AD should get credit

If the Lakers lose, then it's hard to know who to blame because they lost last year

That's why an all-time great can't miss the playoffs because then they can't take credit when there's a big addition and they subsequently make it...

It's no different than Kyrie missing playoffs in 2014, and getting zero credit in 2015 - Lebron is now in that boat

[3ball]

Yes, pointing out that the team lacks shooting...in an era in which there might not be something more important...is just crazy.

Great comment.

Anything else?
It's Lebron's fault that the Lakers lack shooting

If lebron himself was an elite shooter, then the Lakers would have 2 elite shooters in the starting lineup and be fine

But Lebron isn't an elite jumpshooter - it's one of his flaws, so he should take some blame for the Lakers' shooting woes

But the reality is that the Lakers supposedly added sufficient shooters this year, so any underperformance can potentially fall on lebron if it persists

[DMAVS41]

It's Lebron's fault that the Lakers lack shooting

If lebron himself was an elite shooter, then the Lakers would have 2 elite shooters in the starting lineup and be fine

But Lebron isn't an elite jumpshooter - it's one of his flaws, so he should take some blame for the Lakers' shooting woes

But the reality is that the Lakers supposedly added sufficient shooters this year, so any underperformance can potentially fall on lebron if it persists

No, that doesn't make sense...

[3ball]

No, that doesn't make sense...
Why not

[DMAVS41]

Why not

Because Lebron would never play the role of "shooter" consistently on this team even if he could shoot much better.

He's too valuable doing what he does. Doesn't mean his lack of shooting isn't a flaw...it is for sure...but it also isn't like he's just a terrible range shooter either. If he gets back to normal...he'll be somewhere around 34% from 3...and a lot of those 3's come on non "wide-open" situations.

The other players I referenced playing the "shooter" role and need to convert more open shots for anyone with a brain to call this team "complete"...

Current 3 point percentages outside of Lebron;

Green - 41%
Bradley - 29%
Rondo - 20%
Kuzma - 31%
Davis - 27%
Caruso - 26%
KCP - 30%
Cook - 33%
Daniels - 32%

Nobody with a brain is claiming that is optimal in this league. Nobody...

[egokiller]

Why not

It obviously does since 1 elite shooter +1 elite shooter =2 elite shooters

:roll:

[IllegalD]

And, yet, if Lakers do win, this knucklehead will give all the credit to Anthony Davis. Funny how if they lose, though, LeBron will be the big failure. You're so transparently pathetic.


If AD ends up being Finals MVP isnt that how its supposed to work?

Or, let me guess. If AD wins Finals MVP you'll flip flop on everything you ever said/thought about Kobe's "sidekick rings" because all of a sudden you don't want it to apply to your lover LeBron.

[ImKobe]

If AD ends up being Finals MVP isnt that how its supposed to work?

Or, let me guess. If AD wins Finals MVP you'll flip flop on everything you ever said/thought about Kobe's "sidekick rings" because all of a sudden you don't want it to apply to your lover LeBron.

:lol "but look at his numbers against the Clippers/Rockets doe", after shitting on Kobe's 00-02 rings for the past 10+ years.

[RRR3]

:lol "but look at his numbers against the Clippers/Rockets doe", after shitting on Kobe's 00-02 rings for the past 10+ years.
00: absolutely carried by Shaq. Check the stats.

02: confirmed rigged.



We’ll give him 01 as a legit ring (still not a ring as the best player ofc) but Shaq was still the man in the finals.

[Lebron6]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/d8/1a/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCS5IqEXsAAlVvd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WgzMcAe.jpg

Won the GOAT chip. I'm sorry folks, but this guy is on another level. :bowdown:

LeGOAT

[RRR3]

Actually, a slightly higher percentage of LeBron’s 2PT fgs throughput his career were assisted than Kobe’s. LeBron’s 3s are much less assisted than Kobe’s though. But it’s not like LeBron spams 3s so...

[3ball]

Because Lebron would never play the role of "shooter" consistently on this team even if he could shoot much better.

He's too valuable doing what he does.


^^^ the bolded is a misperception of what's actually going on

Lebron isn't "too valuable" doing what he's doing - he simply can't be maximized any other way

If a team with lebron wants to maximize their best player (lebron), they must keep him on-ball, even though that hurts some teammates and brand/team compared to other greats who don't need the ball as much to get their max stats

The best way to play is rampant ball movement while the star still achieves elite stats - these are the best teams - lebron lacks the skills to do this, so teams must let him dominate the ball and suffer a brand reduction, rather than put him off-ball and marginalize their best player... I guess it's better to marginalize teammates if the star lacks the skills to play without the ball





Doesn't mean his lack of shooting isn't a flaw...it is for sure...but it also isn't like he's just a terrible range shooter either. If he gets back to normal...he'll be somewhere around 34% from 3...and a lot of those 3's come on non "wide-open" situations.

.
Indeed - Durant, Kawhi, MJ, Curry, Bird, Kobe - they all took turns in the "shooting" role by letting teammates assist them for jumpshots.. but Lebron's assisted rate is very low because he lacks skills to play the shooter role or off-ball and still get elite stats

and therein lies the rub - a team with lebron can't maximize their best player (lebron) without keeping him on-ball - this reduces teammates to spot-up shooters, while also reducing brand and the team... Compare to Durant, MJ, and Kawhi, who have the skills to get max stats without having the ball as much, which allows teammates and brand to be maximized..

Just look at the numbers - it takes lebron 10 minutes of hold-time to get 30 points, compared to 5 minutes for Kawhi or Curry - this 5 minute gap represents 5 lessminutes that Lebron's teammates hold the ball, which explains their underperformance compared to curry, kawhi, or mj's teammates






Current 3 point percentages outside of Lebron;

Green - 41%
Bradley - 29%
Rondo - 20%
Kuzma - 31%
Davis - 27%
Caruso - 26%
KCP - 30%
Cook - 33%
Daniels - 32%


Aren't guys like KCP and Cook supposed to be good shooters?

Weren't all the reports that the Lakers have good shooting this year, while last year's strategy of getting ballhandlers was finally behind them?

Could it be that these guys are underachieving because the 1 ball-dominator and 4 shooter approach is a basic way to play that defenses are good at defending?

Btw, the Lakers' underperforming shooting shows how strong the duo of lebron/AD is.. it's like Magic and Hakeem teaming up, or Magic/Bird .. these Lakers should never lose

[DMAVS41]

Disagree with pretty much everything you write.

No, Lebron isn't hurting his teammates.

No, the Lakers didn't add great shooters outside of Green of course.

Do they have enough to win the title? I do think so, but I just don't see how one can call a team "complete" in this era that has an issue with 3 point shooting.

[3ball]

Disagree with pretty much everything you write.

No, Lebron isn't hurting his teammates.

No, the Lakers didn't add great shooters outside of Green of course.

Do they have enough to win the title? I do think so, but I just don't see how one can call a team "complete" in this era that has an issue with 3 point shooting.
Do you think Lebron could get elite stats if he had to play more of the shooter role or off-ball?

Of course not - he lacks the skills

So teams don't keep lebron on-ball because he's too valuable there, they keep him there because that's the only way to maximize him.. his stats would crater if you took him off-ball

But teams know that the best way to play is rampant ball movement while the star still achieves elite stats - these are the best teams - lebron lacks the skills to do this, so teams must suffer a brand reduction by letting him dominate the ball, rather than put him off-ball and marginalize their best player... I guess it's better to marginalize teammates than the star...

there isn't anything to disagree with here - it's just a recounting of what happens (teams sacrifice the best brand so they aren't marginalizing their best player, who can only get elite stats on-ball)

[DMAVS41]

Again, I don't agree with your take, but...I'm interested...

You think the same thing about Giannis then I'm assuming...what is your take on him...just not that good?

[SpaceJam2]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/d8/1a/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCS5IqEXsAAlVvd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WgzMcAe.jpg

Won the GOAT chip. I'm sorry folks, but this guy is on another level. :bowdown:

LeGOAT


Shut

It

Down

Another day :hammertime:

Another win :dancin

[Turbo Slayer]

Shut

It

Down

Another day :hammertime:

Another win :dancin
We know. Brother, we beasting. Dey know! :banana:

[3ball]

Again, I don't agree with your take, but...I'm interested...

You think the same thing about Giannis then I'm assuming...what is your take on him...just not that good?



19' Giannis is easily better than 07' Lebron, including a better jumper:


Giannis 19' ECF..'' vs.. Champs - 23/14/6 on 44.8 fg.. 23.7% on jumpers
Lebron. 07' Finals vs. Champs - 22/7/6.. on 35.6 fg.. 17.9% on jumpers


Links for jumpshot stats:

Giannis: https://stats.nba.com/player/203507/...offs&PORound=3

Lebron: https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/sh...offs&PORound=4






Again, I don't agree with your take, but...I'm interested...

You think the same thing about Giannis then I'm assuming...what is your take on him...just not that good?




Time of Possession for 2019 and 2020 RS

Lebron. - 6.4 and 8.0
Giannis - 4.6 and 5.0


50-60% greater hold time means less hold time for Lebron's teammates - this explains why his teammates underperformed for his entire career compared to other stars like Curry and Kawhi, who held the ball less and played a better brand of ball (ball movement has always gotten better looks for role players than 1 guy dominating the ball in the halfcourt)
.

[egokiller]

http://i.imgur.com/28ZbB.jpg

:biggums:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[SpaceJam2]

We know. Brother, we beasting. Dey know! :banana:


Dey know :dancin


2016 > all 6 of MJ's rings

Imagine being an MJ stain. Imagine being embarassed of your own chips:lol

[DMAVS41]

I literally don't know what you are talking about.

I'm asking you what you think of Giannis as a player. I also agree he currently is better than 07 Lebron. In fact, I don't think it is close...the level Giannis is at right now is better than a lot of Lebron's career.

Again though, do you think it hurts his team by him having such a usage with a limited shot off the ball?

And, for the Lakers, who should have the ball in their hands more if you think Lebron should be playing off-ball a lot more?

[Turbo Slayer]

Dey know :dancin


2016 > all 6 of MJ's rings

Imagine being an MJ stain. Imagine being embarassed of your own chips:lol
:roll: Dey know!

[SpaceJam2]

I literally don't know what you are talking about.

I'm asking you what you think of Giannis as a player. I also agree he currently is better than 07 Lebron. In fact, I don't think it is close...the level Giannis is at right now is better than a lot of Lebron's career.

Again though, do you think it hurts his team by him having such a usage with a limited shot off the ball?

And, for the Lakers, who should have the ball in their hands more if you think Lebron should be playing off-ball a lot more?

Apparently the dummy thinks 2018 Cavs Jordan Clarkson and George Hill should have

[3ball]

.
Time of Possession for 2019 and 2020 RS

Lebron. - 6.4 and 8.0
Giannis - 4.6 and 5.0


2019 link: https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
2020 link: https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1




I literally don't know what you are talking about.

I'm asking you what you think of Giannis as a player. I also agree he currently is better than 07 Lebron. In fact, I don't think it is close...the level Giannis is at right now is better than a lot of Lebron's career.

Again though, do you think it hurts his team by him having such a usage with a limited shot off the ball?

And, for the Lakers, who should have the ball in their hands more if you think Lebron should be playing off-ball a lot more?
You realize that usage simply counts shot attempts, FT's and turnovers right?.. It measures how often a player finishes a possession and has nothing to do with how much a player is on-ball or off.. i.e. jj redick would lead in usage if he shot enough.. you're conflating high shot volume with ball-dominance

The two stats that measure how long a player holds the ball is their assisted rate, i.e. how often teammates assist them (ball-dominators don't get assisted much because they always have the ball)... And time of possession (how long a player has the ball in their hands during the game)

Giannis beats lebron in both areas - giannis is assisted on 48.7% (https://stats.nba.com/player/203507/scoring/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) of his shots, versus only 34.1% (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/scoring/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for Lebron (pg-level)...

And of course, Lebron's time of possession is 50-60% higher than Giannis, as shown at the top of this post..

50% more hold time means less hold time for Lebron's teammates - this explains why his teammates underperformed for his entire career compared to other stars like Curry and Kawhi, who held the ball less and played a better brand of ball (ball movement has always gotten better looks for role players than 1 guy dominating the ball in the halfcourt)
.

[Hey Yo]

.
Time of Possession for 2019 and 2020 RS

Lebron. - 6.4 and 8.0
Giannis - 4.6 and 5.0


2019 link: https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
2020 link: https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1




You realize that usage simply counts shot attempts, FT's and turnovers right?.. It measures how often a player finishes a possession and has nothing to do with how much a player is on-ball or off.. i.e. jj redick would lead in usage if he shot enough.. you're conflating high shot volume with ball-dominance

The two stats that measure how long a player holds the ball is their assisted rate, i.e. how often teammates assist them (ball-dominators don't get assisted much because they always have the ball)... And time of possession (how long a player has the ball in their hands during the game)

Giannis beats lebron in both areas - giannis is assisted on 48.7% (https://stats.nba.com/player/203507/scoring/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) of his shots, versus only 34.1% (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/scoring/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for Lebron (pg-level)...

And of course, Lebron's time of possession is 50-60% higher than Giannis, as shown at the top of this post..

50% more hold time means less hold time for Lebron's teammates - this explains why his teammates underperformed for his entire career compared to other stars like Curry and Kawhi, who held the ball less and played a better brand of ball (ball movement has always gotten better looks for role players than 1 guy dominating the ball in the halfcourt)
.
LOL @ taking all that time to say why the reigning MVP in his prime has been better through 10gms than a guy playing in his 17th season



:roll: :roll: :roll:

[egokiller]

.
Time of Possession for 2019 and 2020 RS

Lebron. - 6.4 and 8.0
Giannis - 4.6 and 5.0


2019 link: https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
2020 link: https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1




You realize that usage simply counts shot attempts, FT's and turnovers right?.. It measures how often a player finishes a possession and has nothing to do with how much a player is on-ball or off.. i.e. jj redick would lead in usage if he shot enough.. you're conflating high shot volume with ball-dominance

The two stats that measure how long a player holds the ball is their assisted rate, i.e. how often teammates assist them (ball-dominators don't get assisted much because they always have the ball)... And time of possession (how long a player has the ball in their hands during the game)

Giannis beats lebron in both areas - giannis is assisted on 48.7% (https://stats.nba.com/player/203507/scoring/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) of his shots, versus only 34.1% (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/scoring/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for Lebron (pg-level)...

And of course, Lebron's time of possession is 50-60% higher than Giannis, as shown at the top of this post..

50% more hold time means less hold time for Lebron's teammates - this explains why his teammates underperformed for his entire career compared to other stars like Curry and Kawhi, who held the ball less and played a better brand of ball (ball movement has always gotten better looks for role players than 1 guy dominating the ball in the halfcourt)
.

What's funny is that 2011 lebron numbers are probably similar and inferior to what Giannis is doing now. :roll:

[3ball]

LOL @ taking all that time to say why the reigning MVP in his prime has been better through 10gms than a guy playing in his 17th season



:roll: :roll: :roll:
Actually, i wasn't saying Giannis > Lebron...

My post explained usage to DMAVS, and why he shouldn't conflate high usage (shot volume) with high ball-dominance (holding the ball a long time)

I explained how the 2 stats that measure ball-dominance are the assisted rate and time of possession, where all wings lead Lebron, not just Giannis... And for lebron's whole career, not just late-career

Lebron has always been a ball-dominator, so this isn't surprising... It seems like Giannis holds the ball just as much, but the reality is that he finishes stronger at the rim than Lebron ever did (over 200 dunks in 2019) - his superior size allows teammates to find him off-ball for dunks, and he simply gets to the rim with less dribbles and set up time than lebron ever did

[AussieSteve]

3ball...

Do you think that the Lakers excl LeBron are as good as the clippers excl kawhi?

[SpaceJam2]

Imagine thinking it's a "reward" to hold the ball less when you consistently had a better playmaker on your team (Pippen) AND you played in a VERY weak illegal-zone defense era.


Cant make this up :lol

[3ball]

3ball...

Do you think that the Lakers excl LeBron are as good as the clippers excl kawhi?
Isiah says below that his Pistons would destroy MJ's bulls if you removed MJ/Isiah from those teams, but he said MJ was the difference that allowed victory (Isiah speaks after Magic):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s


Like, if you think Lebron is the goat, shouldn't he be the difference like Jordan was?... :coleman:

[FKAri]

Isiah says below that his Pistons would destroy MJ's bulls if you removed MJ/Isiah from those teams, but he said MJ was the difference that allowed victory (Isiah speaks after Magic):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s


Like, if you think Lebron is the goat, shouldn't he be the difference like Jordan was?... :coleman:
Isiah also said his Pistons would've continued to win vs the Bulls into the 90s if MJ didn't go whining to Stern about the physical play. You're right he really does know his stuff.

[ShawkFactory]

Isiah also said his Pistons would've continued to win vs the Bulls into the 90s if MJ didn't go whining to Stern about the physical play. You're right he really does know his stuff.
Didn't he also say Bird would be just another good player if he wasn't white.

Incredibly wise individual

[3ball]

Didn't he also say Bird would be just another good player if he wasn't white.

Incredibly wise individual
^^^ that was in the heat of battle when he was still a player

His MJ comments were soon after he'd retired (so that brief period of life where he was keeping it real, i.e. I can't play anymore)

[DMAVS41]

.
Time of Possession for 2019 and 2020 RS

Lebron. - 6.4 and 8.0
Giannis - 4.6 and 5.0


2019 link: https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
2020 link: https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1




You realize that usage simply counts shot attempts, FT's and turnovers right?.. It measures how often a player finishes a possession and has nothing to do with how much a player is on-ball or off.. i.e. jj redick would lead in usage if he shot enough.. you're conflating high shot volume with ball-dominance

The two stats that measure how long a player holds the ball is their assisted rate, i.e. how often teammates assist them (ball-dominators don't get assisted much because they always have the ball)... And time of possession (how long a player has the ball in their hands during the game)

Giannis beats lebron in both areas - giannis is assisted on 48.7% (https://stats.nba.com/player/203507/scoring/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) of his shots, versus only 34.1% (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/scoring/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for Lebron (pg-level)...

And of course, Lebron's time of possession is 50-60% higher than Giannis, as shown at the top of this post..

50% more hold time means less hold time for Lebron's teammates - this explains why his teammates underperformed for his entire career compared to other stars like Curry and Kawhi, who held the ball less and played a better brand of ball (ball movement has always gotten better looks for role players than 1 guy dominating the ball in the halfcourt)
.

When I say "usage" I'm just using the term in a general sense. I'm not using usage percentage...as that isn't even what we are talking about. We are talking about playing on and off-ball.

Again, you aren't answering the question.

I'm asking you...is Giannis also hurting his team by playing on the ball quite a bit while having a limited off-ball impact in terms of his shooting?

In addition, I'm asking you who should have the ball more often on the Lakers if you take the ball out of Lebron's hands more often.

Please try to just answer the questions rather than go on a tangent about something unrelated or accusing me of conflating definitions of terms I'm not even using.

Thanks in advance.

[BallsOut]

In addition, I'm asking you who should have the ball more often on the Lakers if you take the ball out of Lebron's hands more often.

AD, Kuzma, Rondo, and Caruso.

[3ball]

We are talking about playing on and off-ball.


Before I answer your 2 questions (the 2 responses below), I don't think I made it clear what the specific flaw is in Lebron's game:

Ultimately, 2-PG lineups simply have low assist teams (i.e. Harden/CP3 or Lebron/Kyrie) - teammates have less hold-time and assists in 2-PG lineups than 1-PG lineups, which results in low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level.. So Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance for his position DOES have a negative impact (on brand, ball movement, teammate capacity, and ultimately team strength)

lebron simply avoided the same career-losing fate as his fellow ball-dominators by team-hopping for the extra talent the style needs to win

Now Giannis doesn't have the ball-dominance issue as much because he plays off-ball more (he was assisted on 49% of his shots in 2019) - he plays on-ball too, but about 30-40% less than Lebron (lower time of possession)

Remember, Giannis is bigger than lebron - so he's a big target (more like a big man) and teammates find him for dunks in ways that lebron can't get..

So Giannis is a bigger/better target off-ball, and he also uses less dribbles on-ball - i.e. he's more powerful at the rim, so he doesn't need as much setup time or as perfect an opportunity to attack as Lebron






is Giannis also hurting his team by playing on the ball quite a bit while having a limited off-ball impact in terms of his shooting?


His lack of shooting and ability to seamlessly shift from ball-handler to the shooter role and vice versa absolutely lowers his team's ceiling.....

at least compared to Kawhi, Curry, MJ, Durant, and Kobe who could play either role at anytime, thus fitting with teammates and maximizing brand/ball-movement






In addition, I'm asking you who should have the ball more often on the Lakers if you take the ball out of Lebron's hands more often.


the ball shouldn't be in anyone's hands predominantly - move the ball - that's what wins - not 1 guy dominating the ball in the halfcourt...

You realize that coaches prefer to move the ball right?... and they'd play that way if Lebron could get dominant stats off-ball... But since he can't, coaches are forced to suffer the brand reduction so they aren't marginalizing their best player..

but if we put Kobe, Kawhi or Durant in place of lebron, they wouldn't be dominating the ball like Lebron and the team would be better.. it's funny that Kobe won automatic rings with Pau, yet there's all this consternation around whether lebron can win this year with AD and a great cast - this is a function of Lebron's suboptimal style - 17 years and yet every single team he had is underwhelming and needed more help, even 2013 when he almost lost with a juggernaut...

That isn't 17 years of coincidence - there's something wrong - and the problem is that he holds the ball 50% longer than his peers to get the same stats, so his teammates have less time than they get on other teams.. it's pretty simple tbh.. the guy basically plays a version of harden-ball and we're wondering why he's only 3/9?.. c'mon.......
.

[Da_Realist]

Kobe won automatic rings with Pau, yet there's all this consternation around whether lebron can win this year with AD and a great cast


Good point

[DMAVS41]

I know it is a lot to juggle, but you contradict yourself a lot.

I'm not going to even touch how absurd it is to blast Lebron for his help and in the same sentence act like Durant/Kobe somehow won with less.

All that writing and you still can't even answer the questions. I'm not arguing that the ball should only be in the hands of one player, I'm simply asking you which player or players should be handling the ball more often instead of Lebron on the Lakers?

I'm assuming you have an issue with how Luka plays as well. So, Luka is limiting the Mavs offense I assume...right? So, what is the expectation there? That the Mavs should have the best offense and not the 2nd best offense because that just isn't good enough with a bunch of ragtag role players?

Giannis limits his team? Really? How many wins should be expected with that kind of supporting cast? 60 with an elite offense and defense...is just...evidence that they need a different star to reach their potential?

There are many different styles that win in the NBA. Not just one...and arguing for things that actually did happen didn't...seems a bit of a losing battle. For example, Lebron/Kyrie didn't fail...it worked amazingly well...and it destroys the main parts of your argument. Listing CP3/Harden as well...dude...they won 65 games in 18 and nearly beat one of the best teams of all time...probably would have if Paul doesn't get hurt. That is your example of how not to play...a 65 win historically good Rockets team?

No player is perfect, yet you seem to think that in order for Lebron to be great...he has to be perfect. But nobody is arguing he is perfect...just like Giannis isn't perfect.

But, that isn't a point. That is a non-point that everyone already accepts. Saying that Lebron would make a greater impact if he could wet 3's at 45% is the most obvious claim ever. Literally everyone in the world agrees with this.

What I'm still not understanding is why you think the Lakers have better options than Lebron running the show. Who on that team can even create for themselves at all outside of Davis?

And, my point from the jump, shooting really matters in this league today around your star players...and for a team to be called "complete"...you should have a team that can nail open 3's at a higher clip than this Lakers team seemingly can.

Lastly, comparing the 09/10 league to today is absurd. No other true elite players in those years had the championship level help Kobe did. It isn't the same thing at all.

[IllegalD]

I know it is a lot to juggle, but you contradict yourself a lot.

I'm not going to even touch how absurd it is to blast Lebron for his help and in the same sentence act like Durant/Kobe somehow won with less.

All that writing and you still can't even answer the questions. I'm not arguing that the ball should only be in the hands of one player, I'm simply asking you which player or players should be handling the ball more often instead of Lebron on the Lakers?

I'm assuming you have an issue with how Luka plays as well. So, Luka is limiting the Mavs offense I assume...right? So, what is the expectation there? That the Mavs should have the best offense and not the 2nd best offense because that just isn't good enough with a bunch of ragtag role players?

Giannis limits his team? Really? How many wins should be expected with that kind of supporting cast? 60 with an elite offense and defense...is just...evidence that they need a different star to reach their potential?

There are many different styles that win in the NBA. Not just one...and arguing for things that actually did happen didn't...seems a bit of a losing battle. For example, Lebron/Kyrie didn't fail...it worked amazingly well...and it destroys the main parts of your argument. Listing CP3/Harden as well...dude...they won 65 games in 18 and nearly beat one of the best teams of all time...probably would have if Paul doesn't get hurt. That is your example of how not to play...a 65 win historically good Rockets team?

No player is perfect, yet you seem to think that in order for Lebron to be great...he has to be perfect. But nobody is arguing he is perfect...just like Giannis isn't perfect.

But, that isn't a point. That is a non-point that everyone already accepts. Saying that Lebron would make a greater impact if he could wet 3's at 45% is the most obvious claim ever. Literally everyone in the world agrees with this.

What I'm still not understanding is why you think the Lakers have better options than Lebron running the show. Who on that team can even create for themselves at all outside of Davis?

And, my point from the jump, shooting really matters in this league today around your star players...and for a team to be called "complete"...you should have a team that can nail open 3's at a higher clip than this Lakers team seemingly can.

Lastly, comparing the 09/10 league to today is absurd. No other true elite players in those years had the championship level help Kobe did. It isn't the same thing at all.

Shouldn't you be emptying the septic tank of your trailer?

[Replay32]

This thread has potential.

Scrub

[stalkerforlife]

They're incredibly stacked.

[3ball]

No other true elite players in those years had the championship level help Kobe did.


The 08' Spurs were defending champs with their same cast, yet Kobe curb-stomped em' while averaging 29 on 53% (lebron got 22 on 36% the previous year)...

Kobe also beat the 10' Celtics, which Lebron should've done

So you're wrong





act like Kobe somehow won with less.


you realize that Bosh/Love were among the top 1st options in the league before joining Lebron right?

Kobe won with a Bosh-level player at 2nd option, while Lebron had Bosh at 3rd option and a kobe-like perimeter stud at 2nd option - so Kobe easily won with less help than Lebron

In 2010, Wade was #2 in PER, VORP, BPM, and WS/48 - he was simply the #2 player in the league, so that's like MJ teaming up with Bird...

So how does a so-called goat team up with the next best player in the league and proceed to lose or be an underdog 3 of 4 years? It's impossible for the goat, so that's how we know he isn't the goat






For example, Lebron/Kyrie didn't fail


But they underachieved - why did Curry win 70+ with Klay/Dray, but Lebron couldn't win 60 with Kyrie/Love?.. Kawhi flirted with 70 wins that year too

The Cavs only won 57, which made them underdogs despite their equal star talent and actually being the favorite the prior year (prior to the 2015 regular season and playoffs)

If they'd flirted with 70 wins like Kawhi and Curry, they would've won as juggernauts and entered 2017 as unstoppable forces - it wouldn't have mattered what kd did

Bro - you can't team-up with wade/bosh or kyrie/love and lose every year or be the underdog - you just can't - if you do, then you're doing something wrong... :confusedshrug:





which player or players should be handling the ball more often instead of Lebron on the Lakers?


Everyone - Giannis has a weaker cast, yet he holds the ball 40% less than lebron each game.. the time of possession stats show that teammates would have an extra 3 minutes with the ball (40% more) if Durant, Kawhi or Giannis replaced Lebron - literally everyone on the team would get more touches and get to move the ball more if Lebron held the ball less

but again, the reason teams can't take Lebron off-ball is because then Lebron's production will falter - it's better to marginalize the cast than Lebron... But teams with Kawhi, MJ, Kobe, Durant, Curry, etc don't have this issue because those guys have the skill to produce off-ball





Giannis limits his team? Really?


F.uck yes

2009 should've shown you that this shit doesn't get exposed until the playoffs when coaches earn their money...

Exploitable players see different coverages that they didn't see in the regular season, like Lebron in the 09' ECF or 15' Finals (SVG/Kerr preferred lebron's long-dribbling and didn't double him) or Giannis in the 19' ECF (raptors made him use his broke jumper)

If either of these guys could seamlessly transition from the ball-handler role to the shooting role and vice-versa like Curry/Kawhi/MJ, they wouldn't be exploitable and would win more like those guys did
.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe didn't win in 08 and the competition in 09 and 10 is laughable compared to what it is now. So, no, any reasonable person would agree the competition is better now.

Kobe had peak Shaq. Please stop.

Do you know how good you must think Lebron is if you think he "underachieved" with Kyrie? They made the finals every year together and won a title beating the best regular season team of all time. And certainly what Kyrie has done without Lebron isn't evidence for you.

So they should take the ball out of Lebron's hands more often and give it to a bunch of guys other than Davis. Makes sense...I guess the Mavericks should do the same so THJ/Wright/Brunson get more touches. Sounds smart if you are trying to lose games.

You are't giving Giannis and Lebron nearly enough credit. Your standard is near perfection from them. Do you realize that if Giannis could transition to a shooter role and wet jumpers like you are talking about...he'd probably be the best player ever. Same with peak/prime Lebron. You are essentially saying they aren't the best player ever. Again, this is a total non-point.

It must be really tough to wake up and fight against Lebron...and probably Giannis once Lebron is gone. Lebron, like I've told you before, is going to go down as a top 5 player ever on most lists. Giannis...he's on his way to some rare company as well if this keeps up.

Also, I'm pretty confident Lebron's year 17 will go down as better than Kobe's...and Kobe was actually pretty good despite not even fake trying on defense.

[AussieSteve]

Isiah says below that his Pistons would destroy MJ's bulls if you removed MJ/Isiah from those teams, but he said MJ was the difference that allowed victory (Isiah speaks after Magic):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s


Like, if you think Lebron is the goat, shouldn't he be the difference like Jordan was?... :coleman:



Wouldn't the failure be on Kawhi if the clippers don't win then? He's supposed to be the BITW right now. He has the better cast. No excuses.

Your being inconsistent.

Here's the reality...

If the Lakers don't win, it will be because LeBron was not better than Kawhi enough to overcome the talent gap between the two teams, or perhaps because Kawhi is actually better than LeBron. But either way, not a failure, because many think kawhi is the BITW right now.

If the Lakers do win, it will be because LeBron was better than Kawhi enough to overcome the talent gap between the two teams. Given that Kawhi is considered by many to be the BITW right now, and he has a better cast, that would be a little bit GOATish on LeBron's part.

[DMAVS41]

Wouldn't the failure be on Kawhi if the clippers don't win then? He's supposed to be the BITW right now. He has the better cast. No excuses.

Your being inconsistent.

Here's the reality...

If the Lakers don't win, it will be because LeBron was not better than Kawhi enough to overcome the talent gap between the two teams, or perhaps because Kawhi is actually better than LeBron. But either way, not a failure, because many think kawhi is the BITW right now.

If the Lakers do win, it will be because LeBron was better than Kawhi enough to overcome the talent gap between the two teams. Given that Kawhi is considered by many to be the BITW right now, and he has a better cast, that would be a little bit GOATish on LeBron's part.

He'd never admit the Clippers have a better team. Which is strange because he clearly thinks Leonard is better than Lebron...so that means he has to over-rate the hell out of guys like KCP/Bradley/Rondo/Caruso...etc.

I actually agree though...I'd rather have Leonard than Lebron in a playoff series at the moment.

I tried this with Lebron/Kyrie underachieving claim. He isn't realizing how good one must think Lebron is to call that underachieving.

His expectations for Lebron alone literally destroy most of his arguments.

[stalkerforlife]

DMAVS getting wrecked by 3ball.

[NBAGOAT]

Shouldn't you be emptying the septic tank of your trailer?

Usually don

[NBAGOAT]

Here’s one problem with a lot of analysis. Way too results oriented filled with hindsight bias. In a 7 game series, sometimes the best team doesn’t win so how the hell do we know they played the most “optimally”. Talent lvls have to be considered too. Those discussions unfortunately usually go nowhere.

Like it sounds stupid but I could make a semi serious argument that Houston played the most optimally in the league the last few years with their ridiculous shot selection and the most heavy ball stopping and isolation offense. Opposite of “teamwork”.

I would just argue they had amazing results considering other teams were more talented like gs and cle from 15-17(likely okc and lob city clips too). Would argue they were as impressive if not more than Toronto and mil last year even though they’re less talented because tor got gs with no kd. Don’t want to get into a talent discussion however

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]Here

[red1]

guys if you're arguing with 3ball you're just wasting your time



he thinks delonte west and mo williams are as good as grant/rodman and pippen



he's actually a retard. he doesn't hide his agenda either he'll try to convince you that caruso is better than pippen.

[Wally450]

Does OP ever get bored of spewing the same shit over and over?

[red1]

OP actually thinks the 2009 cavs had as much talent as what jordan won with


he thinks jordan would've led the mo williams cavs to repeat championships :roll:

[guy]

Wouldn't sound stupid at all.

The 18 Rockets were a historically good team by just about every measure we have.

Them losing to one of the best teams of all-time that year doesn't somehow for sure make other title teams better. I've tried and tried explaining this.

The problem with using all these advanced measures is they

[SpaceJam2]

OP actually thinks the 2009 cavs had as much talent as what jordan won with


he thinks jordan would've led the mo williams cavs to repeat championships :roll:


Delusional ass 3ball troll :lol

[RealSkipBayless]

DMAVS getting wrecked by 3ball.
ya hate to see it

[egokiller]

DMAVS getting wrecked by 3ball.

Who doesn't get recked by 3ball after he decides to lay down the facts? The man is one man wrecking ball and he's probably getting paid while he posts playing no limit holdem in vegas where he lives and posting this shit in between folded hands.

[SpaceJam2]

guys if you're arguing with 3ball you're just wasting your time



he thinks delonte west and mo williams are as good as grant/rodman and pippen



he's actually a retard. he doesn't hide his agenda either he'll try to convince you that caruso is better than pippen.

Wow :lol What a loon

[red1]

Delusional ass 3ball troll :lol
he's actually retarded I remember taking him seriously a few years ago and now I kick myself in the head for wasting that time



I wasted quality time trying to teach him about basketball- quality time that I could've spent *********ing or getting high in my underwear at home