Bran ball won't work in the postseason

[superduper]

Without prime Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love.

AD will carry a game or two in the playoffs but ultimately is not a leader and won't lead this team anywhere.

Bran will get his stats as usual and will also take the L as usual because there's no alpha scorer on the team to hit all of the clutch shots. Reality has shown LeGOAT only works with multiple superstars.

Enjoy the regular season, where LeGOAT goes his hardest vs lottery teams :rockon:

[DoctorP]

The James brothers will be interesting to watch this post season. Harden and Bran.

The Clippers have already shown they can beat the Lakers.

Houston? They have much to prove.

[Manny98]

3 championships and dominating the gruelling east for 8 straight years says otherwise

#RevengeSeason #FullyRested :banana:

[red1]

changing teams mid-series doesn't work in the postseason either



what happened to your old avatar OP?

http://freegifmaker.me/img/res/1/5/5/7/7/2/15577238232251547.gif

[LAmbruh]

changing teams mid-series doesn't work in the postseason either



what happened to your old avatar OP?

http://freegifmaker.me/img/res/1/5/5/7/7/2/15577238232251547.gif
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[red1]

:roll: :roll: :roll:
I bet he wishes he had a gasol avatar instead :(

[Uncle Drew]

You look worried OP. Is everything okay?

[RealSkipBayless]

changing teams mid-series doesn't work in the postseason either



what happened to your old avatar OP?

http://freegifmaker.me/img/res/1/5/5/7/7/2/15577238232251547.gif

:yaohappy: :hammertime:

[StrongLurk]

changing teams mid-series doesn't work in the postseason either



what happened to your old avatar OP?

http://freegifmaker.me/img/res/1/5/5/7/7/2/15577238232251547.gif

Holy shi-t, that actually happened last year (talking about Embid). :roll:

[red1]

Holy shi-t, that actually happened last year (talking about Embid). :roll:
it's called the kawhi effect

[RRR3]

OP we get it. You’re madly in love with LeBron.

[Gileraracer]

but hey, at least Bran can reach the POs now with all the allstars on his team. :pimp:

[red1]

but hey, at least Bran can reach the POs now with all the allstars on his team. :pimp:
you actually came back and showed your face after 2016 respect son :cheers:

[Rico2016]

changing teams mid-series doesn't work in the postseason either



what happened to your old avatar OP?

http://freegifmaker.me/img/res/1/5/5/7/7/2/15577238232251547.gif

And with this post, the thread has been decimated

[Nike D'Antoni]

Having the ball so long in your hand, running the clock down, and then pass to a teammate to shoot under pressure with no time left has been the story of Lebron ball.

[Turbo Slayer]

Having the ball so long in your hand, running the clock down, and then pass to a teammate to shoot under pressure with no time left has been the story of Lebron ball. LeBron is one of the best shot creators and passers this season. You don't make it by just running the clock down and passing to a teammate with no time left.

[Gus Hemmingway]

:oldlol:

[FKAri]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/pHMtogPBHC7Cg/200.gif

[8Ball]

Where did he disappear to?

I don't see this poster anymore.

[scuzzy]

https://media.giphy.com/media/TmyKbZZmy5J7nKfv36/giphy.gif

[3ball]

It was AD-ball

AD was MVP of the Western Conference Playoffs and vs Denver (the real Finals), and league scoring champ

[FireDavidKahn]

https://i.gifer.com/ace.gif
https://i.gifer.com/ace.gif
https://i.gifer.com/ace.gif

[Gus Hemmingway]

It was AD-ball

AD was MVP of the Western Conference Playoffs and vs Denver (the real Finals), and league scoring champ

Who led in PER

[3ball]

Who led in PER

AD did in the real Finals and varsity playoffs (Western Conference).. who cares about the blowout garbage time stat pad vs the JV league (East)

[RRR3]

3bitch sniveling like the little rat he is :roll:

LeBron completely embarrassed him yet again.

[FireDavidKahn]

LeBron was easily the best player in the real Finals.

Both the stats, impact and hardware back it up.

[scuzzy]

https://media.giphy.com/media/iDvAvryPLDSgCQkftB/giphy.gif

[3ball]

3bitch sniveling like the little rat he is :roll:

LeBron completely embarrassed him yet again.

It's funny because Harden gets knocked for being a loser, but the only difference between him and lebron is team-hopping/ring-chasing by lebron to acquire superior supporting talent

Otherwise, we saw harden outperform lebron against the Warriors (out-produced KD), so his team out-performed lebron's team (record loss)

[8Ball]

Who led in PER

LeBron with another 30 PER playoff run.

[FireDavidKahn]

Now 3ball is arguing that 0 finals > 10 finals

:roll:

[3ball]

Now 3ball is arguing that 0 finals > 10 finals

:roll:

Lebron was a 1-trick pony before the "decision", with only 1 Finals run like Iverson, Dwight or Kidd

Then he was elevated to champion by 2 star teammates, aka big 3 (that harden never had), or the playoff scoring champ, aka modern Kareem (that harden never had)

so this idea that lebron brings guys titles and therefore "makes guys better" is false - teaming up doesn't equal making guys better - it's just stacking the deck and talent-based winning.... virtually none of his primary teammates improved statistically while alongside him because his skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team--hopping, talent-based winning)..

Talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement, so lebron has a lottery record vs Mavs, Spurs and Warriors..

[8Ball]

Now 3ball is arguing that 0 finals > 10 finals

:roll:

Lost his marbles. 1 contradiction after another.

Jordan stans can't think any more. :lol

[3ball]

Lost his marbles. 1 contradiction after another.

Jordan stans can't think any more. :lol

Nope. My previous response directly refutes Kahn

[RRR3]

Snivelball :roll: :roll: :roll:


Good god every day we have to read this dude’s mentally unhinged diatribes he types out in a teary-eyed rage. Dude is legit sick.

[3ball]

Snivelball :roll: :roll: :roll:


Good god every day we have to read this dude’s mentally unhinged diatribes he types out in a teary-eyed rage. Dude is legit sick.
:cry:.. :cry:

this idea that lebron brings guys titles and therefore "makes guys better" is false - teaming up doesn't equal 'making guys better' - it's just stacking the deck and talent-based winning....

Talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement, so lebron has a lottery record vs Mavs, Spurs and Warriors..

[RRR3]

This year’s playoffs RUINED Snivelball :lol

The man has been bleeding from his ****** every day since.

[SouBeachTalents]

Without prime Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love.

AD will carry a game or two in the playoffs but ultimately is not a leader and won't lead this team anywhere.

Bran will get his stats as usual and will also take the L as usual because there's no alpha scorer on the team to hit all of the clutch shots. Reality has shown LeGOAT only works with multiple superstars.

Enjoy the regular season, where LeGOAT goes his hardest vs lottery teams :rockon:
He managed to get literally everything he said wrong, no easy task :applause:


Having the ball so long in your hand, running the clock down, and then pass to a teammate to shoot under pressure with no time left has been the story of Lebron ball.
Actually, maybe it's not that difficult after all

[SouBeachTalents]

but hey, at least Bran can reach the POs now with all the allstars on his team. :pimp:
Jeez, this guy hasn't shown his face in months, one of the handful of posters that scattered like rats after the playoffs

[RRR3]

Jeez, this guy hasn't shown his face in months, one of the handful of posters that scattered like rats after the playoffs
Another LeExtinction level event. Haven’t seen Phongie boy in a while either.

[3ball]

Another LeExtinction level event. Haven’t seen Phongie boy in a while either.

Lebron was Dr. J before cheating

A nice athletic phenom but lacked the brand, fundamentals or shooting to win.. team-hopping covered this stuff up

[RRR3]

Lebron was Dr. J before cheating

A nice athletic phenom but lacked the brand, fundamentals or shooting to win.. team-hopping covered this stuff up
Dude I’m pretty sure you’re actually crying when you type these posts out. The level of butthurt LeBron indices in you is unbelievable. If he wins 6 rings I legit fear for your mental state.

[AirBonner]

MJ was shackled to one player to achieve success

[3ball]

Dude I’m pretty sure you’re actually crying when you type these posts out. The level of butthurt LeBron indices in you is unbelievable. If he wins 6 rings I legit fear for your mental state.

He'll never win 6 as the best player and he'd be Harden without team-hopping

[FireDavidKahn]

MJ ball proved that you can't even have a winning season without a tree trunk like Pip.

No Pippen = no winning season.

[3ball]

MJ ball proved that you can't even have a winning season without a tree trunk like Pip.

No Pippen = no winning season.

Pippen cost Jordan rings from 88-90' and 95', and nearly 92, and 96-98 - look it up - only pippen stunk.. Jordan won that much in spite of pippen

[tpols]

Snivelball :roll: :roll: :roll:


Good god every day we have to read this dude’s mentally unhinged diatribes he types out in a teary-eyed rage. Dude is legit sick.

Why would you make fun of a sick person? You're projecting and take resolve in finding a person (you think is) worse than you.

[8Ball]

MJ ball proved that you can't even have a winning season without a tree trunk like Pip.

No Pippen = no winning season.

Look at Jordan's 14th and 15th year in the league.....

[red1]

:roll::roll::roll:

[scuzzy]

:roll::roll::roll:
:roll:

[Manny98]

Why would you make fun of a sick person? You're projecting and take resolve in finding a person (you think is) worse than you.

Yes 3ball is mentally unhinged that's for sure.

I am assuming it's autism from his fixation on the topic of LeBron vs Jordan and the constant repetition of his threads and posts repeating the same points every day

[red1]

:roll:

thuper-duper. :roll:



man what happened to that little jizzrag

[FireDavidKahn]

Look at Jordan's 14th and 15th year in the league.....

....

Under .500

[And1AllDay]

Without prime Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love.

AD will carry a game or two in the playoffs but ultimately is not a leader and won't lead this team anywhere.

Bran will get his stats as usual and will also take the L as usual because there's no alpha scorer on the team to hit all of the clutch shots. Reality has shown LeGOAT only works with multiple superstars.

Enjoy the regular season, where LeGOAT goes his hardest vs lottery teams :rockon:

:roll::roll::roll::roll:

[Baller789]

4/10 :roll:

[TheGoatest]

Look at Jordan's 14th and 15th year in the league.....

LeBron's 17th season in the league absolutely EVISCERATES Jordan's 14th season.

:roll::roll::roll:

[Baller789]

LeBron's 17th season in the league absolutely EVISCERATES Jordan's 14th season.

:roll::roll::roll:

Lebron just eviscerated himself 6/10 times tho.

:lol

[LAmbruh]

https://media.giphy.com/media/6cYxFGG8ZdOQ3iwEDc/giphy.gif

[Wally450]

:roll::roll:

[Baller789]

Bran ball won't work in the postseason 6/10 times.

Yuck.

[8Ball]

Without prime Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love.

AD will carry a game or two in the playoffs but ultimately is not a leader and won't lead this team anywhere.

Bran will get his stats as usual and will also take the L as usual because there's no alpha scorer on the team to hit all of the clutch shots. Reality has shown LeGOAT only works with multiple superstars.

Enjoy the regular season, where LeGOAT goes his hardest vs lottery teams :rockon:

If I was this retarded I would just jump off a bridge at this point.

Every thought in this brain produces an incorrect conclusion.... Imagine living life this way.


Oh wait, he did disappear. :lol

[Baller789]

If I was this retarded I would just jump off a bridge at this point.

Every thought in this brain produces an incorrect conclusion.... Imagine living life this way.


Oh wait, he did disappear. :lol

4/10

[red1]

https://media.giphy.com/media/6cYxFGG8ZdOQ3iwEDc/giphy.gif

:roll:

[TheCorporation]

https://media.giphy.com/media/6cYxFGG8ZdOQ3iwEDc/giphy.gif

2ez

Another day :hammertime:

Another win :dancin :djparty
https://i.postimg.cc/CK9WwBPy/23to6to23.jpg

[Gil Renard]

https://media.giphy.com/media/6cYxFGG8ZdOQ3iwEDc/giphy.gif

:rockon:

[Tobio-Star]

Half of LeHaters left the forum after LeQuattro. LeCinco will force the remaining ones to switch sports :rockon:

[Baller789]

Half of LeHaters left the forum after LeQuattro. LeCinco will force the remaining ones to switch sports :rockon:

Nope.

4/10

[ArbitraryWater]

Without prime Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love.

AD will carry a game or two in the playoffs but ultimately is not a leader and won't lead this team anywhere.

Bran will get his stats as usual and will also take the L as usual because there's no alpha scorer on the team to hit all of the clutch shots. Reality has shown LeGOAT only works with multiple superstars.

Enjoy the regular season, where LeGOAT goes his hardest vs lottery teams :rockon:

Lol, then Bron dropped what, 40 on 70% in game 5 hitting every possible clutch shot there was?

Lol

[Baller789]

Lol, then Bron dropped what, 40 on 70% in game 5 hitting every possible clutch shot there was?
Bran stans forgetting something
Lol
https://i.ibb.co/QHLJPD7/images-12.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

:roll:

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


OP was correct because it was AD-ball..

who cares about the blowout, stat-pad, garbage time series against the JV East?.. AD was MVP against the better comp, aka Western Conference and the "real" Finals vs Denver.

[red1]

.
Thread Cliffs


OP was correct because it was AD-ball..

who cares about the blowout, stat-pad, garbage time series against the JV East?.. AD was MVP against the better comp, aka Western Conference and the "real" Finals vs Denver.

4 rings in the modern era vs modern competition

>>>>>


6 rings in a cigarette-smoking beer-drinking league



FYI jordan was ringless without pippen - lebron led 3 franchises to the ring








https://media.giphy.com/media/6cYxFGG8ZdOQ3iwEDc/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/6cYxFGG8ZdOQ3iwEDc/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/6cYxFGG8ZdOQ3iwEDc/giphy.gif

[3ball]

4 rings in the modern era vs modern competition

>>>>>


6 rings in a cigarette-smoking beer-drinking league



FYI jordan was ringless without pippen - lebron led 3 franchises to the ring








https://media.giphy.com/media/6cYxFGG8ZdOQ3iwEDc/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/6cYxFGG8ZdOQ3iwEDc/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/6cYxFGG8ZdOQ3iwEDc/giphy.gif



BEST PLAYERS THAT BOTH MJ AND LEBRON FACED


1) SHAQ



Top Lebron moments:



2004-2006 were the only years of Lebron's career where Shaq had some prime left - during those years, Lebron finished behind Shaq in MVP voting (2004 and 2005), and lost the conference to him (2005 and 2006).. Lebron never dunked on him.




Top Jordan moments:



Jordan won MVP over prime Shaq in 1996 and 1998 and swept Shaq in 1996 ECF.. He also dunked on him, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/LfHlds.gif).




2. KOBE:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron watched Kobe win more championships during the time that both were in their prime, and also watched Kobe save the team in the 2008 Olympics.

- He missed the much-anticipated, Kobe/Lebron matchup in 2009 and 2010 Finals, because his top-seeded team underachieved by losing to lower seeds in earlier rounds.




Top Jordan moments:



- MJ dunked on Kobe in their first ever possession vs. each other, shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-13-2015/Q3fm0o.gif)

- MJ showed his protege how it's done by hitting the game-winner in the first game of the 1997 Finals, after Kobe had airballed 4 straight game-winner attempts against the same team earlier in the playoffs.

- MJ passed the torch to his protoge in the 1998 all-star game by scoring on him at will (5 times in head-to-head possessions, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN3sto7KGQs&t=0m16s)).




3. DUNCAN



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron missed the infamous game-tying 3-pointer and needed Ray Allen to save him




Top Jordan moments:



- Jordan MADE his game-tying 3-pointer from the exact same spot during his first meeting with Duncan/Popovich in 1998 (the shot is shown here (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/rP-QUs.gif))... Then he dominated the OT, including 2 dunks over Duncan, shown here (https://media.giphy.com/media/26FPq7nUqs2V8LyNO/giphy.gif)..

Later in that 1998 season, Jordan won the Finals against the team (Jazz) that destroyed Duncan's Spurs in WCF 2nd Round (Duncan/Robinson/Popovich's Spurs won 56 games in RS).




4. GARNETT:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron got his **** pushed in during 2008 and 2010 ECSF




Top Jordan moments:



- Jordan schooled Garnett in the 1998 all-star game (shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/10-30-2015/q8-1iR.gif)) and during the regular season (shown here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/6agjm-.gif), here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/EfFINb.gif) and here (http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/Jp9ACT.gif)).

- The only time where MJ and Garnett were matched up defensively for an entire game was during a 2002 contest - both were matched up at SF, and 38-year old Jordan scored 35 on Garnett in every way imagineable, including various blow-by dunks and layups, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0).




5. SHAWN MARION:



Top Lebron moments:



- Lebron got locked down by OLD Shawn Marion during the 2011 Finals, which was one of the greatest chokes ever by a star in the Finals.




Top Jordan moments:



- 38-year old Jordan hit the game-winner in PRIME Shawn Marion's face during a contest in 2002 (shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m09s)), and then destroyed him for 41 points in another contest (shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)).




6. 2003-2004 seasons



JORDAN 2003: 19.3 PER.. 20.0 ppg.. 44.5 fg
LEBRON 2004: 18.3 PER.. 20.9 ppg.. 41.7 fg

[red1]

cut and paste

cut and paste

cut and paste





stop posting the same things every single time. at least when we repeat ourselves with the same lame jokes we're actually typing it again.



like how come jordan couldnt carry a team without pippen and was just putting up all-time scoring stats unlike the real daddy showed up. :oldlol:



why was pippen able to do what baldan never could - actually lead a team to 50+ wins without his sidekick?

[red1]

meanwhile lebron won with three different franchises


cant make dwade jokes or kyrie jokes or even AD jokes when he led all three to championships :roll:


would've had 6 rings already if kd didnt join the warriors or if kyrie wasn't fragile - we'll settle with the all-time leading playoff scoring and 4 finals MVPs :roll:


meanwhile baldan never played a single team as good as the dynasty spurs or warriors - getting the chance to claim a finals MVP over a 73-win team aka the best record in league history - thats a nice trophy :)

https://sportsration.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Lebron-James.jpg

[3ball]

cut and paste

cut and paste

cut and paste





stop posting the same things every single time. at least when we repeat ourselves with the same lame jokes we're actually typing it again.



like how come jordan couldnt carry a team without pippen and was just putting up all-time scoring stats unlike the real daddy showed up. :oldlol:



why was pippen able to do what baldan never could - actually lead a team to 50+ wins without his sidekick?

Stop posting the same dumb 3rd grade arguments

You said that Jordan played against plumbers, so I showed you that Jordan and lebron played against the same guys (Shaq, Duncan, etc), and Jordan did better against them

So 3ball destroyed you... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3u8CXqdG9Pk&t=0m51s

[red1]

Stop posting the same dumb 3rd grade arguments

You said that Jordan played against plumbers, so I showed you that Jordan and lebron played against the same guys (Shaq, Duncan, etc), and Jordan did better against them

So 3ball destroyed you... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3u8CXqdG9Pk&t=0m51s

I've shit on you like clockwork and I've destroyed every single one of your arguments over the years. I own you son.


my argument was never that jordan is bad - unlike you claiming and arguing in seriousness that lebron wouldnt retire top-15. I argued 2nd GOAT.


who won that argument? :oldlol:



you're actually very very dumb. I just enjoy shitting on you because I'm enjoying lbj's continued dominance into his late career as a fan and I know how mad it makes you.


hence the constant insecure spam from you.

[red1]

why does pippen bother you so much?


pippen turns you into a serial liar. why were you lying to these kids trying to convince them that pippen isnt a GOAT-tier defender and trying to convince them that mo williams or jr smith are equivalent players?

[3ball]

why does pippen bother you so much?


pippen turns you into a serial liar. why were you lying to these kids trying to convince them that pippen is a GOAT-tier defender and trying to convince them that mo williams or jr smith are equivalent players?

The media lies about pippen

They say pippen guarded magic in the 91' Finals, but he just did SPOT-duty - Jordan guarded Magic most of the time and therefore did pippen's job (magic is normally guarded by forwards).. pippen should've been magic's main defender, but Jordan stepped up and did pippen's job for him... So here we see pippen being babied and not treated or critiqued like normal players..

The reality is that pippen never locked anyone down as the primary defender - all these guys either went off on Pippen or got their normal averages:... Dominique, Kevin Willis, X-man, Larry Johnson, Juwan Howard, Jerome Kersey, Richard Dumas, Detlef Schrempf - literally EVERYONE... pippen has zero "signature" performances as the primary defender... And don't lie about "team" defense - the bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat - 4 of 6 Finals or ECF opponents had a better defense.. aka clyde led a better defense despite less defensive help

Ultimately, the winning spotlight inflated pippen's weak stats and production, so his stats are about 120th all-time, but his perceived ranking is 30th (preposterous). Only pippen's perceived ranking differs so much from the statistical ranking, due to winning spotlight inflation (and simply being associated with mj).

[red1]

The media lies about pippen

They say pippen guarded magic in the 91' Finals, but he just did SPOT-duty - Jordan guarded Magic most of the time and therefore did pippen's job (magic is normally guarded by forwards).. pippen should've been magic's main defender, but Jordan stepped up and did pippen's job for him... So here we see pippen being babied and not treated or critiqued like normal players..

The reality is that pippen never locked anyone down as the primary defender - all these guys either went off on Pippen or got their normal averages:... Dominique, Kevin Willis, X-man, Larry Johnson, Juwan Howard, Jerome Kersey, Richard Dumas, Detlef Schrempf - literally EVERYONE... pippen has zero "signature" performances as the primary defender... And don't lie about "team" defense - the bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat - 4 of 6 Finals or ECF opponents had a better defense.. aka clyde led a better defense despite less defensive help

Ultimately, the winning spotlight inflated pippen's weak stats and production, so his stats are about 120th all-time, but his perceived ranking is 30th (preposterous). Only pippen's perceived ranking differs so much from the statistical ranking, due to winning spotlight inflation (and simply being associated with mj).

pippen and jordan were dominant on defense. they were equivalent. I only caught and rewatched the late 90's NBA and thats my intro to the game I recognize all of those players obviously. I'm not a jordan hater or pippen fan Im just trolling you - you're an insane fanboy.


stop lying comparing pippen to mo ****ing williams. or jr smith.



and bend the knee. for the main argument that you've pushed here.



because of your posts lebron and jordan are now 1a and 1b. and its a shaky 1b for baldan.

[3ball]

pippen and jordan were dominant on defense. they were equivalent. I only caught and rewatched the late 90's NBA and thats my intro to the game I recognize all of those players obviously. I'm not a jordan hater or pippen fan Im just trolling you - you're an insane fanboy.


stop lying comparing pippen to mo ****ing williams. or jr smith.



and bend the knee. for the main argument that you've pushed here.



because of your posts lebron and jordan are now 1a and 1b. and its a shaky 1b for baldan.


The stats speak for themselves - Jordan achieved a top 5 offense with less offensive production from his sidekick, across the board:


09' Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48

09' Mo Will... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 59% ts... 115 ortg... 23.4 usage
90' Pippen.... 16.5.. 6.7.. 5.4.. 53% ts... 103 ortg... 21.0 usage


Don't be surprised.. that's how weak pippen was offensively (Mo Williams level).. again, the media is revising history..

and that was 1990 pippen - mo destroys 89' pippen even worse, or 88' pippen