How did LeBron in his Prime on Super Teams lose to a bunch of Old Men in 2011/2014?

[eliteballer]

Anyone know?

[ShawkFactory]

Drinking on a Thursday? Respect

[Andrei89]

I'l take the bait

Because he was not on superteams?

Lebron, Bosh and Wade all superstar players.

The rest were absolute trash. Mario Chalmers and Joel Anthony were the starters on that team smfh.

Let me give you the 86 Celtics for comparison.

Larry Bird ---> trolls here on ISH claims he was better than Lebron no exuses

Dennis Johnson ----> Chalmers even remotely on his level?

Kevin McHale---> one of the the GOAT PF in the post. 24 PPG scorer with a wingspan of a Boeing 747

Robert Parish ----> compare him to Joel Anthony? :roll: :roll:

Bill Walton ----> Rejuvenated, finally healthy, defensive beast who won 6th man of the year that season

Danny Ainge---> In his prime. Wade much better I agree.

Shut this shit down. Or I can call up 15 more teams more balanced and stacked than the Big 3 Miami Heat era

[AussieSteve]

I'l take the bait

Because he was not on superteams?

Lebron, Bosh and Wade all superstar players.

The rest were absolute trash. Mario Chalmers and Joel Anthony were the starters on that team smfh.

Let me give you the 86 Celtics for comparison.

Larry Bird ---> trolls here on ISH claims he was better than Lebron no exuses

Dennis Johnson ----> Chalmers even remotely on his level?

Kevin McHale---> one of the the GOAT PF in the post. 24 PPG scorer with a wingspan of a Boeing 747

Robert Parish ----> compare him to Joel Anthony? :roll: :roll:

Bill Walton ----> Rejuvenated, finally healthy, defensive beast who won 6th man of the year that season

Danny Ainge---> In his prime. Wade much better I agree.

Shut this shit down. Or I can call up 15 more teams more balanced and stacked than the Big 3 Miami Heat era

This is all true and the LeBirdIsBetterThanBronTards never want to acknowledge how stacked Bird's teams were for most of his career.

Having said that, there's no defense for Lebron in 2011.

In 2014 the Heat were a shell of the team they put together 4 years prior. No player history could have dragged them past the 2014 Spurs. 2016 LeBron or first three peat MJ might have got closer than 4-1, but not winning 4 games.

[Gileraracer]

Joining #2 and #4 in PER while you are #1 the season before = NO SUPERTEAM :roll:

[Andrei89]

Wanna do the 96 Bulls?

Michael Jordan the GOAT:lol

Scottie Pippen one of the GOAT 2nd options

Dennis Rodman one of the best defenders ever and the goat rebounder

Steve Kerrr ---> can't even compare him to Chalmers

add Tony Kukoc there better than any player on those Miami squads except the Big 3

[AussieSteve]

Joining #2 and #4 in PER while you are #1 the season before = NO SUPERTEAM :roll:

They were a superteam. And obviously should have 3peated 2011-13.

By 2014, they were LeBron plus a bunch of guys who used to be good.

[Andrei89]

Joining #2 and #4 in PER while you are #1 the season before = NO SUPERTEAM :roll:


You keep mentioning PER.

Lebron James is the 2nd all time in PER and Bryant 24th.

So, is Lebron heads and shoulders a better player than 24thBe ever was or are we going to do your famous eye test?

You can't have it both way little fakkit :roll: :roll:

[Andrei89]

They were a superteam. And obviously should have 3peated 2011-13.

By 2014, they were LeBron plus a bunch of guys who used to be good.

Lebron choked hard in 2011.

But, you can't be a superteam when you have 3 great players and play with D-league trash and washed up 37 year old players. They got exposed. There is only one ball and only 3 of them can score.

Compare this to the 86 Celtics or 87 Lakers, The 2017-2018 GSW Warriors and the 2010-2014 Miami does not even come close to that level of stacked.

[Gileraracer]

You keep mentioning PER.

Lebron James is the 2nd all time in PER and Bryant 24th.

So, is Lebron heads and shoulders a better player than 24thBe ever was or are we going to do your famous eye test?

You can't have it both way little fakkit :roll: :roll:

You probably didn't realize yet that I'm not a Kobe fan

[Andrei89]

You probably didn't realize yet that I'm not a Kobe fan


Unless you are only MJ fan who is the GOAT, according to PER statistics Lebron is 2nd of all time and better than anybody else.

So next time, don't use PER for comparison or you gonna get bitten :lol

[Gileraracer]

Unless you are only MJ fan who is the GOAT, according to PER statistics Lebron is 2nd of all time and better than anybody else.

So next time, don't use PER for comparison or you gonna get bitten :lol

Bitten by what? A mouse? :roll:

2010 Lebron was 1st in PER, Wade was 2nd and Bosh was 4th.
They joined forces the next year.

For comparison, that would be MJ colluding with:

Magic and Barkley in 1987.

Can you imagine MJ, Magic and Barkley on one team? No? Thank god MJ couldn't either, cause he wanted to compete, not to collude.

[gabepizza]

Bitten by what? A mouse? :roll:

2010 Lebron was 1st in PER, Wade was 2nd and Bosh was 4th.
They joined forces the next year.

For comparison, that would be MJ colluding with:

Magic and Barkley in 1987.

Can you imagine MJ, Magic and Barkley on one team? No? Thank god MJ couldn't either, cause he wanted to compete, not to collude.

Come on now. MJ, Magic and Barkley are some of the best players of all time. You can make that argument about D-Wade and Lebron but Bosh? Yes he was an all-star and one of the best players at that time but to compare a threesome with Bosh to a threesome with MJ, Magic and Barlkey is silly.

[SouBeachTalents]

Come on now. MJ, Magic and Barkley are some of the best players of all time. You can make that argument about D-Wade and Lebron but Bosh? Yes he was an all-star and one of the best players at that time but to compare a threesome with Bosh to a threesome with MJ, Magic and Barlkey is silly.
An actual rational and objective post :applause:

[Bawkish]

Wanna do the 96 Bulls?

Michael Jordan the GOAT:lol

Scottie Pippen one of the GOAT 2nd options

Dennis Rodman one of the best defenders ever and the goat rebounder

Steve Kerrr ---> can't even compare him to Chalmers

add Tony Kukoc there better than any player on those Miami squads except the Big 3

you know what's the difference between the Miami & Bulls superteams?

Bulls set the record for the most wins in history that time, steamrolled to the playoffs then win the title

Miami??

"umm were gonna win not one...not two...not three...."

[Andrei89]

Bitten by what? A mouse? :roll:

2010 Lebron was 1st in PER, Wade was 2nd and Bosh was 4th.
They joined forces the next year.

For comparison, that would be MJ colluding with:

Magic and Barkley in 1987.

Can you imagine MJ, Magic and Barkley on one team? No? Thank god MJ couldn't either, cause he wanted to compete, not to collude.


I think your IQ is too low to understand. You used PER as a player skill measurement which means you think Lebron is the 2nd best player of all time.

How difficult is it for your mushroom brain to understand :roll:

[SpaceJam]

I think your IQ is too low to understand. You used PER as a player skill measurement which means you think Lebron is the 2nd best player of all time.

How difficult is it for your mushroom brain to understand :roll:

Dude thinks David Lee was better than Kobe in 2010

[Andrei89]

Dude thinks David Lee was better than Kobe in 2010


This dude's IQ is so low he uses PER to argue how strong Lebron's teammates were.

Knowing that Lebron is the 2nd ranked all time in PER. Can't imagine how much of a punching bag this guy is in real life. His family probably holds secret parties and birthdays and not invite him.

[Gileraracer]

Guys can't argue facts i see :applause:

[Mr Feeny]

Wanna do the 96 Bulls?

Michael Jordan the GOAT:lol

Scottie Pippen one of the GOAT 2nd options

Dennis Rodman one of the best defenders ever and the goat rebounder

Steve Kerrr ---> can't even compare him to Chalmers

add Tony Kukoc there better than any player on those Miami squads except the Big 3

Are you a troll?
1996 Dennis rodman and Scottie Pippen were nowhere near 2011 Wade and 2011 Bosh.
Steve Kerr? Is this a joke?

How old are you?

[SouBeachTalents]

Are you a troll?
1996 Dennis rodman and Scottie Pippen were nowhere near 2011 Wade and 2011 Bosh.
Steve Kerr? Is this a joke?

How old are you?
Rodman in '96 made the All-Defensive First Team, led the league in rebounds, and was in consideration for FMVP. How was he "nowhere near" Bosh?

[knicksman]

if lebron is really great, how come he cant outperform pierce. Pierce won in his first try while lebron couldnt. Even kawhi without superteam could do it. I just dont see him as a GOAT material if he couldnt even beat a player like paul pierce.

[Mr Feeny]

Rodman in '96 made the All-Defensive First Team, led the league in rebounds, and was in consideration for FMVP. How was he "nowhere near" Bosh?

Riighhttt. By that logic, Tony Allen was a better played than early 2000s Wade.

[Andrei89]

Are you a troll?
1996 Dennis rodman and Scottie Pippen were nowhere near 2011 Wade and 2011 Bosh.
Steve Kerr? Is this a joke?

How old are you?


Are you a faking retard. 96 Rodman was still a beast on the boards and played all time great defense.

Steve Kerr is not a joke, he is better than Mario chalmers and Joel Anthony combined! lmaoooo

[Andrei89]

Riighhttt. By that logic, Tony Allen was a better played than early 2000s Wade.


:biggums: :biggums:

What the **** this retard lmao

[SouBeachTalents]

:biggums: :biggums:

What the **** this retard lmao
Well tbh, prime Tony Allen might've been better than Wade on Marquette

[superduper]

Had Bosh had the fortune of being Kobe's #2 instead of Pau he would be seen in a much different light and called a top 50 player all time.

[superduper]

if lebron is really great, how come he cant outperform pierce. Pierce won in his first try while lebron couldnt. Even kawhi without superteam could do it. I just dont see him as a GOAT material if he couldnt even beat a player like paul pierce.

Honestly Paul Pierce is tougher and has more integrity than Bran ever has.

That was the deciding factor that led to Bran to run away to superteams and he knows it.

[tpols]

Joining #2 and #4 in PER while you are #1 the season before = NO SUPERTEAM :roll:


Shouldve known idiots in the future would downplay them... team that promised 8 titles lmao ...not a super team.

[Hey Yo]

Shouldve known idiots in the future would downplay them... team that promised 8 titles lmao ...not a super team.
So the team expected to win 2 titles each year since James, Wade and Bosh was only under contract from 2011-14?

And you're calling others idiots??

:oldlol:

[red1]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClXdOhhWkAA3H_f.jpg

[SpaceJam2]

1) 2011 and 2014 was not a super team

2) He did not have the luxury of facing 10 ppg Jeff Hornacek (#2 option)

3) He did not have the luxury of playing with a 1st team NBA defender

4) He did not have a defensive anchor every year

5) He faced legendary teams

[SpaceJam2]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClXdOhhWkAA3H_f.jpg


https://media.giphy.com/media/4Zo1InomnFJWIwIkf7/giphy.gif

The wins pour down

#Wheres Kobe ?

[superduper]

Bran stans are so visibly insecure.

There must be a reason....

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[red1]

https://monetary-metals.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/gstandard.png
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClXdOhhWkAA3H_f.jpg

[knicksman]

So the team expected to win 2 titles each year since James, Wade and Bosh was only under contract from 2011-14?

And you're calling others idiots??

:oldlol:

damn.. hey yo strikes again. LOL

[egokiller]

Come on now. MJ, Magic and Barkley are some of the best players of all time. You can make that argument about D-Wade and Lebron but Bosh? Yes he was an all-star and one of the best players at that time but to compare a threesome with Bosh to a threesome with MJ, Magic and Barlkey is silly.

It's not silly at all because at that time, that's who happened to be #2 and #4 in per with MJ at #1.

[Duncan21formvp]

No idea or even in 2017 for that matter.

[light]

Anyone know?

Most people blame Dwyane Wade for both losses.

[Phoenix]

Most people blame Dwyane Wade for both losses.

The only people who blame 2011 on Wade are brain-dead Lebron stans. Lebron didnt even have to play 'great' for Miami to have won that series. But dropping 9 points off his season average is simply inexcusable. And for the trolls who say the gameplan was for him to play 2nd banana( more bullshit but let's play along) he still could have produced better than 18ppg in a 2nd option role to Wade. There is simply no excuse for someone of his historical status to drop 8 points in a pivotal game 4 when Wade dropped 32, Bosh 24....and they lose by 3. Guess who didn't do their part?

[3ball]

.
]Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48

[RogueBorg]

Steve Kerr is not a joke, he is better than Mario chalmers and Joel Anthony combined! lmaoooo

Here we go, Steve Kerr about to become one of the best guards of all-time.

[RogueBorg]

The only people who blame 2011 on Wade are brain-dead Lebron stans. Lebron didnt even have to play 'great' for Miami to have won that series. But dropping 9 points off his season average is simply inexcusable. And for the trolls who say the gameplan was for him to play 2nd banana( more bullshit but let's play along) he still could have produced better than 18ppg in a 2nd option role to Wade. There is simply no excuse for someone of his historical status to drop 8 points in a pivotal game 4 when Wade dropped 32, Bosh 24....and they lose by 3. Guess who didn't do their part?

https://media1.tenor.com/images/5b7639d44761d30acb49053c85a91cc8/tenor.gif?itemid=7914063

Go easy on the lad

[AlternativeAcc.]

Wade choked

[Axe]

Wade choked
:oldlol:

[Turbo Slayer]

Wade choked You act if like Wade was the CLEAR #1 option like LeBron was later on like 2012, 2013, 2014. LeBron and Wade were #1 co-options essentially in 2011.

Before the Finals, LeBron led the Miami Heat 2 out of 3 series (EC 1st round and ECF) in PPG scoring wise so LeBron took the brunt and responsibility for 2 series out of 3 and when it came to the Finals he failed and had a epic meltdown.

Get your facts right.

[Turbo Slayer]

Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48... 1.2 WS... 0.9 BPM... 105 drtg... much worse rebounder, statistically... worse passer, statistically

93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48... 1.4 WS... 2.0 BPM... 111 drtg... better rebounder, statistically... better passer, statistically

All-NBA and All-Defensive selections...

Wade- none

Pippen- All-Defensive (1st) & All-NBA (3rd)






Let's edit this a bit better so we can get a more detailed picture... The edits are in bolded words. So it turns when comparing 93' Pippen and 14' Wade in the POs Pippen was much better at helping teammates on defense (also a better defender, too), better passer, better rebounder, and had more impact in the POs than Wade.

The only thing Wade beats Pippen in is scoring more points efficiently and even then it's only 2.4 points more on more efficiency so it's a wash.

[2ball]

LeBron shrunk. Otoh had LeBron have MJ’s goat scoring prowess he could of dispatched his opponents in 4 games

[Turbo Slayer]

.
]Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48

Also it's a bit disingenuous that you choose to disregard what happened after both superstars left aka Jordan and LeBron.

Wade and the rest of the Heat didn't even make the POs although to be fair to Wade, Bosh battled injuries (missing around 40 games) and Wade missed around 20 games in the season. Also the roster makeup wasn't identical. Nevertheless the Heat went 9-11 in the first quarter of the season, a losing record.

Pippen and the 94' Bulls won 55 games when Pete Myers replaced Jordan and made the POs.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Spurs were the best team. Why is it shocking the best team won?


14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48... 1.2 WS... 0.9 BPM... 105 drtg... much better rebounder, statistically... better passer, statistically

93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48... 1.4 WS... 2.0 BPM... 111 drtg... worse rebounder, statistically... worse passer, statistically

Why is 93' Pippen being compared to 14' Wade?

Here is the full info, FWIW:

93' Pippen in the playoffs per 100: 26.2 PPG, 9.1 RPG, 7.4 ASG, 2.8 SPG, 1.4 BPG, 102 O rating, 105 D rating, 46.9% eFG%
93' Wade in the playoffs per 100: 28.6 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 6.2 ASG, 2.4 SPG, 0.4 BPG, 106 O rating, 111 D rating, 51.6% eFG%

This is somehow favorable to Wade? He is being outproduced nearly across the board.

The nuance is worse. Notice he is using "per 100 possessions". This is to mask that Pippen was able to play 41.5 MPG while Wade only 34.7 MPG. So the durable Pippen (81 of 82 games played) could give his team 20% more time on the court than the fragile Wade (54 of 82 games played) in the playoffs. That is a big difference in the value provided between the two.

The raw numbers are:

Pippen 93' playoffs: 20.1 PPG, 6.9 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.2 SPG, 0.7 BPG
Wade 14' playoffs: 17.8 PPG, 3.9 RPG, 3.9 APG, 1.5 SPG, 0.3 BPG

A clean sweep for Pip.

So their actual production delta was a lot greater. Plus, by MJ stans' own admission, Wade played in an easier era to score for perimeter players, which boosts his PPG numbers more than what they would be in the 90's context.

The one area Wade has an edge in is efficiency but there are two factors behind that.

The first is he was playing with an all-time great passer, unlike Pippen. Wade shot 55% in the 14' season but was down to 47% without LeBron in 15' (Bosh went from 52% to 46%). Recall that Pippen and Grant became more efficient when MJ retired. The second is Wade operated on a lower volume. Wade took 13.9 FGA, Pippen 17.2 FGA.

Advanced stats heavily favor Pippen as well, even though Wade played 5% more games than Pippen.

VORP: Pippen 0.8, Wade 0.5
BPM: Pippen 2.0, Wade 0.9
WS: Pippen 1.4, Wade 1.2

All this ignores defense where 93' Pippen>>>>>>14' Wade.

[Turbo Slayer]

LeBron shrunk. Otoh had LeBron have MJ’s goat scoring prowess he could of dispatched his opponents in 4 games True. LeBron had a epic meltdown in 2011.

[Turbo Slayer]

The Spurs were the best team. Why is it shocking the best team won?



Why is 93' Pippen being compared to 14' Wade?

What he posted is deceptive--at best (e.g., saying Pippen was a worse rebounder and passer statistically). Here is the full info, FWIW:

93' Pippen in the playoffs per 100: 26.2 PPG, 9.1 RPG, 7.4 ASG, 2.8 SPG, 1.4 BPG, 102 O rating, 105 D rating, 46.9% eFG%
93' Wade in the playoffs per 100: 28.6 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 6.2 ASG, 2.4 SPG, 0.4 BPG, 106 O rating, 111 D rating, 51.6% eFG%

This is somehow favorable to Wade? He is being outproduced across the board.

The nuance is worse. Notice he is using "per 100 possessions". This is to mask that Pippen was able to play 41.5 MPG while Wade only 34.7 MPG. So the durable Pippen could give his team 20% more time on the court than the fragile Wade. That is a big difference in the value provided between the two.

The raw numbers are:

Pippen 93' playoffs: 20.1 PPG, 6.9 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.2 SPG, 0.7 BPG
Wade 14' playoffs: 17.8 PPG, 3.9 RPG, 3.9 APG, 1.5 SPG, 0.3 BPG

So their actual production delta was a lot greater. Wade played in an easier era to score for perimeter players, which boosts his PPG numbers more than what they would be in the 90's context.

The one area Wade has an edge in is efficiency but there are two factors behind that.

The first is he was playing with an all-time great passer, unlike Pippen. Wade shot 55% in the 14' season but was down to 47% without LeBron in 15' (Bosh went from 52% to 46%). Recall that Pippen and Grant became more efficient when MJ retired. The second is Wade operated on a lower volume. Wade took 13.9 FGA, Pippen 17.2 FGA.

Advanced stats heavily favor Pippen as well, even though Wade played 5% more games than Pippen.

VORP: Pippen 0.8, Wade 0.5
BPM: Pippen 2.0, Wade 0.9
WS: Pippen 1.4, Wade 1.2

All this ignores defense where 93' Pippen>>>>>>14' Wade. Sorry bro. I made some wrong mistakes. I meant to clarify that Pippen was the far superior rebounder, a more willing passer, more defense, and had more impact.

I was praising Pippen not Wade. My bad.

I already edited out my mistakes in my earlier post (#47)

[Phoenix]

You act if like Wade was the CLEAR #1 option like LeBron was later on like 2012, 2013, 2014. LeBron and Wade were #1 co-options essentially in 2011.

Before the Finals, LeBron led the Miami Heat 2 out of 3 series (EC 1st round and ECF) in PPG scoring wise so LeBron took the brunt and responsibility for 2 series out of 3 and when it came to the Finals he failed and had a epic meltdown.

Get your facts right.

Wade actually produced better finals stats than regular season (27/7/6 61%TS to 26/6/5 58% TS). Lebron's scoring dipped from 27 to 18. But yeah, Wade choked :rolleyes:. Like I said, only in the mind of brain dead Bron stans/trolls. Everyone including the guy selling hot dogs is to blame before they assign any culpability to Lebron for 2011. Ridiculous.

[Turbo Slayer]

Wade actually produced better finals stats than regular season (27/7/6 61%TS to 26/6/5 58% TS). Lebron's scoring dipped from 27 to 18. But yeah, Wade choked :rolleyes:. Like I said, only in the mind of brain dead Bron stans/trolls. Everyone including the guy selling hot dogs is to blame before they assign any culpability to Lebron for 2011. Ridiculous. Yep. Only brain dead Bron stans do this shit.

I don't even know how LeBron underperformed in that series. I think LeBron checked himself out mentally. Only LeBron could do that. I don't think it was the zone defense.

Weird shit.

[Phoenix]

Yep. Only brain dead Bron stans do this shit.

I don't even know how LeBron underperformed in that series. I think LeBron checked himself mentally. Only LeBron could do that. I don't think it was the zone defense.

Weird shit.

He played the two top rated defenses in 2011 back to back in the playoffs, Boston and Chicago. Dallas didn't throw some next level schemes at him beyond what he had already played through. Bron beat himself in the finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

Sorry bro. I made some wrong mistakes. I meant to clarify that Pippen was the far superior rebounder, a more willing passer, more defense, and had more impact.

I was praising Pippen not Wade. My bad.

I already edited out my mistakes in my earlier post (#47)

Oh sorry, I thought 3ball/2ball posted that since I was reading the thread quick and that's the kind of stuff he does. No worries, and I edited my post to reflect this. You are a great poster! :cheers:


it's a bit disingenuous that you choose to disregard what happened after both superstars left aka Jordan and LeBron.

Wade and the rest of the Heat didn't even make the POs although to be fair to Wade, Bosh battled injuries (missing around 40 games) and Wade missed around 20 games in the season. Also the roster makeup wasn't identical. Nevertheless the Heat went 9-11 in the first quarter of the season, a losing record.

Pippen and the 94' Bulls won 55 games when Pete Myers replaced Jordan and made the POs.

Great points. What people forget is the context masks how good the Bulls were and how bad the Heat were.

The Bulls were on a 58 win pace with Pippen (33 win pace without him) and a 63 win pace when both Pippen and Grant played. Unfortunately, after being iron men during the first threepeat they missed 10 and 12 games, respectively in 94'. Had they stayed healthy the Bulls would have easily been the #1 seed in the East and either the #1 or #2 overall record in the NBA (Seattle won 63 so 63 would go to tiebreaker, but it is also possible the 63 win pace over 82 would wind up being slightly lower or higher). They weren't the only key injuries. Cartwright missed half the season. Kukoc missed 7 games. Bottom line: a healthy Bulls team wins more games without MJ. That is mind boggling.

Moreover, MJ retired so late the Bulls could not replace him with any quality SG, whereas Miami was able to get a former all-star to replace LeBron.

The Heat context is worse. True, Wade was hurt but that's a canard that always comes up. Wade was hurt every year--and he was hurt less in 15' than 14'. When Bosh and Wade both played Miami sucked--13-15 (38 win pace). When one of them played Miami sucked. When Bosh played his last game Miami was 22-30 (35 win pace)--but they went 15-15 the rest of the way partly because they traded for Dragic when Bosh went out (1 game in between). The other factor is Hassan Whiteside came out the G League and became a full-time starter in January.

So the Heat look better than they were because they added Dragic, Whiteside midseason (remember they signed two-time all-star Deng to replace LeBron, not exactly Pete Myers) and despite infusing all that talent they sucked (the Bulls' key acquisitions were Kukoc, Kerr compared to Dragic, Whiteside, Deng).

[Turbo Slayer]

Oh sorry, I thought 3ball/2ball posted that since I was reading the thread quick and that's the kind of stuff he does. No worries, and I edited my post to reflect this. You are a great poster! :cheers:



Great points. What people forget is the context masks how good the Bulls were and how bad the Heat were.

The Bulls were on a 58 win pace with Pippen (33 win pace without him) and a 63 win pace when both Pippen and Grant played. Unfortunately, after being iron men during the first threepeat they missed 10 and 12 games, respectively in 94'. Had they stayed healthy the Bulls would have easily been the #1 seed in the East and either the #1 or #2 overall record in the NBA (Seattle won 63 so 63 would go to tiebreaker, but it is also possible the 63 win pace over 82 would wind up being slightly lower or higher). They weren't the only key injuries. Cartwright missed half the season. Kukoc missed 7 games. Bottom line: a healthy Bulls team wins more games without MJ. That is mind boggling.

Moreover, MJ retired so late the Bulls could not replace him with any quality SG, whereas Miami was able to get a former all-star to replace LeBron.

The Heat context is worse. True, Wade was hurt but that's a canard that always comes up. Wade was hurt every year--and he was hurt less in 15' than 14'. When Bosh and Wade both played Miami sucked--13-15 (38 win pace). When one of them played Miami sucked. When Bosh played his last game Miami was 22-30 (35 win pace)--but they went 15-15 the rest of the way partly because they traded for Dragic when Bosh went out (1 game in between). The other factor is Hassan Whiteside came out the G League and became a full-time starter in January.

So the Heat look better than they were because they added Dragic, Whiteside midseason (remember they signed two-time all-star Deng to replace LeBron, not exactly Pete Myers) and despite infusing all that talent they sucked (the Bulls' key acquisitions were Kukoc, Kerr compared to Dragic, Whiteside, Deng). Thanks! :cheers:

Wow! All of that information is useful. Bookmarked.

[Roundball_Rock]

Thanks! :cheers:

Wow! All of that information is useful. Bookmarked.

:cheers:

Forgot to add the word "late" for Whiteside's emergence. He became a full-time starter in late January, Dragic was acquired about 2 weeks later at the break. So when they lost Bosh they gained Whiteside and Dragic, which are the big reasons why Miami did better after Bosh went out than with him. Bosh was a great player but Whiteside and Dragic good in their own right and you have 2 players replacing 1.

[Turbo Slayer]

He played the two top rated defenses in 2011 back to back in the playoffs, Boston and Chicago. Dallas didn't throw some next level schemes at him beyond what he had already played through. Bron beat himself in the finals.

What's even more weird is that the Miami Heat lost the regular season series to the Mavericks (0-2). Was there a weak spot that the Mavs were exploiting? I don't think so.

Credit to the Mavericks for making LeBron feel uncomfortable. They employed a zone defense on the Miami Heat and doubled LeBron any time that he brought it up the court.

It resulted in LeBron passing to open teammates and that took the ball out of one of the best Miami's scorers (LeBron). They also took away his ability to drive to the hoop by putting Tyson Chandler in the middle of the paint.

Overall, a good job done by the Mavericks. The Heat executed their gameplan very poorly and the Mavs stayed to their gameplan well.

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron clearly is the primary reason Miami lost. If he played at anything close to his normal level the Heat would have beaten Dallas. That said, it is funny how Bosh is never mentioned. Bosh was okay in a vacuum but got crushed by his PF counterpart. Bosh obviously isn't equal to Dirk but Bosh didn't step up to fill the void created by LeBron. If he did so, that would have been another route to Miami winning.

2011 is a legit discredit to LeBron. 2014 is a credit to LeBron. That team took a one-way ticket to the lottery without him. People tend to blend all the LeBron resume blots (real or fake) together.

[Phoenix]

LeBron clearly is the primary reason Miami lost. If he played at anything close to his normal level the Heat would have beaten Dallas. That said, it is funny how Bosh is never mentioned. Bosh was okay in a vacuum but got crushed by his PF counterpart. Bosh obviously isn't equal to Dirk but Bosh didn't step up to fill the void created by LeBron. If he did so, that would have been another route to Miami winning.

2011 is a legit discredit to LeBron. 2014 is a credit to LeBron. That team took a one-way ticket to the lottery without him. People tend to blend all the LeBron resume blots (real or fake) together.

Bosh wasn't going to equate to Dirk but at the least statistically, he didn't drop off from the regular season. The killer for the Heat was game 4. A game they lose by 3 with Wade scoring 32 and Bosh 24. 8 points from Lebron is simply inexcusable. He didn't even need to play 'all-time great'. He just needed to be better than he was and I think Miami takes home the gold.

[light]

Bosh wasn't going to equate to Dirk but at the least statistically, he didn't drop off from the regular season. The killer for the Heat was game 4. A game they lose by 3 with Wade scoring 32 and Bosh 24. 8 points from Lebron is simply inexcusable. He didn't even need to play 'all-time great'. He just needed to be better than he was and I think Miami takes home the gold.

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Dirk-Bron-Pointage38be6094558a28e2.png

LeBron put up 22 points, 9 rebounds and 2 steals in game 4. That's only 1 point less than Dirk in the same game.

And his 22 points were far superior to Wade's and Bosh's worst output in the finals with LeBron.

Bosh - Game 7 2013 - 0 points, 2 assists = 5 points
Wade - Game 5 2014 - 11 points, 1 assist = 14 points

So I think the primary issue for the Heat in game 4 2011 was actually about who else started with their Big 3 - Joel Anthony and Mike Bibby - and that the only others to play in that game were Chalmers, Haslem and Miller. That's paper thin.

So it was about depth.

The next few seasons would see the Heat add Shane Battier, Ray Allen, Birdman, Rashard Lewis, etc. to shore that up.

[Phoenix]

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Dirk-Bron-Pointage38be6094558a28e2.png

LeBron put up 22 points, 9 rebounds and 2 steals in game 4. That's only 1 point less than Dirk in the same game.

And his 22 points were far superior to Wade's and Bosh's worst output in the finals with LeBron.

Bosh - Game 7 2013 - 0 points, 2 assists = 5 points
Wade - Game 5 2014 - 11 points, 1 assist = 14 points

So I think the primary issue for the Heat in game 4 2011 was actually about who else started with their Big 3 - Joel Anthony and Mike Bibby - and that the only others to play in that game were Chalmers, Haslem and Miller. That's paper thin.

So it was about depth.

The next few seasons would see the Heat add Shane Battier, Ray Allen, Birdman, Rashard Lewis, etc. to shore that up.

Nice try. Lebron's season scoring average was nearly 27 a game. That's independent of whatever assists he gets. So a very cute way to gloss over that he scored 8 points in the game. 22 points scoring+ assists is below average production for him and you're being intellectually dishonest with that bullshit. Even within the context of that series 22 total points was drastically lower than the other games. You put it right there for all to see, so congrats on making my point. The Heat were up 2-1 with HCA and could have taken command of the series. They never won again. Where do you suppose the momentum was lost?

Second, Lebron is not only historically a better player than Wade and obviously Bosh, but trying to equate Wade's 2014( when he was injured) and Bosh's 2013 performances to what Lebron in 2011, coming off back to back MVPs the prior 2 seasons, was capable of is a hilarious false equivalence. You're actually doing a disservice to him by attempting to compare it with players not on the same level as him. Like you picked the worst version of Wade to say see, an injured Wade did worse than prime Lebron. Not a great argument.

[KD7]

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Dirk-Bron-Pointage38be6094558a28e2.png

LeBron put up 22 points, 9 rebounds and 2 steals in game 4. That's only 1 point less than Dirk in the same game.

And his 22 points were far superior to Wade's and Bosh's worst output in the finals with LeBron.

Bosh - Game 7 2013 - 0 points, 2 assists = 5 points
Wade - Game 5 2014 - 11 points, 1 assist = 14 points

So I think the primary issue for the Heat in game 4 2011 was actually about who else started with their Big 3 - Joel Anthony and Mike Bibby - and that the only others to play in that game were Chalmers, Haslem and Miller. That's paper thin.

So it was about depth.

The next few seasons would see the Heat add Shane Battier, Ray Allen, Birdman, Rashard Lewis, etc. to shore that up.
Amazing LeBron was getting practically triple teamed every time he touched the ball that series yet still managed to outproduce Dirk

btw how come no one mentions how dogshit Bosh was that series?

Also Heat bench averaged a whopping 12ppg that series compared to the Dallas bench giving them 23ppg

[3ball]

Amazing LeBron was getting practically triple teamed every time he touched the ball that series yet still managed to outproduce Dirk

btw how come no one mentions how dogshit Bosh was that series?

Also Heat bench averaged a whopping 12ppg that series compared to the Dallas bench giving them 23ppg

So you think lebron played better than Dirk in the 11' Finals?

That's what you conclude from the data showing that lebron had more points + assists than Dirk?

Shouldn't the correct conclusion be that personal assists don't matter?

[tpols]

Bosh wasn't going to equate to Dirk but at the least statistically, he didn't drop off from the regular season. The killer for the Heat was game 4. A game they lose by 3 with Wade scoring 32 and Bosh 24. 8 points from Lebron is simply inexcusable. He didn't even need to play 'all-time great'. He just needed to be better than he was and I think Miami takes home the gold.

Bosh also lit Chicago up in the ECF's for 23 ppg on 60% shooting. And they were a powerhouse defense anchored by joakim noah.

TBH, Dirk only really went off in crunchtime. He shot 41% with a 105 ORTG. Thats... not impressive at all. Generally Bosh was not getting torched.

His offensive game was also dependant on LBJ and the PnR. So Lebron going ghost hurt his opportunity to shine.

[tpols]

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Dirk-Bron-Pointage38be6094558a28e2.png

LeBron put up 22 points, 9 rebounds and 2 steals in game 4. That's only 1 point less than Dirk in the same game.


you trolls are getting really bad.

He put up 8 points on 75 ORTG in game 4.

It might be the worst game from a superstar of all time given the stakes.

[Phoenix]

Amazing LeBron was getting practically triple teamed every time he touched the ball that series yet still managed to outproduce Dirk

btw how come no one mentions how dogshit Bosh was that series?

Also Heat bench averaged a whopping 12ppg that series compared to the Dallas bench giving them 23ppg

Are we really trying to muddy the Dirk-Lebron thing by throwing in assists? Dirk is not a high assist guy. We don't have to bring up 'that' 4th quarter graph again, do we? Gmscore, you know that stat you guys like to use when it suites you? Dirk 16.6, Lebron 13.7. Wade, the 'choker'? 22.4. Oh and for shits and giggles, Terry was 13.4. Yes, Lebron's score was basically the same as Jason Terry.

Jason Terry was good for 18 of those points on his own. Only 7 players played meanigful minutes. Barea and Stephenson each started 3 games. I look at the Heat bench and I see Chalmers scored 11.8 and Haslem scored 6.7. 12ppg from the Heat bench?!Chalmers started one game so maybe you're trying to sneak him in there as a starter, but he came off the bench for 5 games.

[Phoenix]

you trolls are getting really bad.

He put up 8 points on 75 ORTG in game 4.

It might be the worst game from a superstar of all time given the stakes.

But but but scoring +assists! Even by the graph his game 4 was woeful compared to other games in the SAME series. That's the evidence he's using to try and equate Dirk and Lebron here. You're correct above, Dirk wasn't 'that' great in the finals but he came through big in the 4th quarters. We all know the graph showing what Bron did comparatively. They're literally begging for it at this point.

[tpols]

But but but scoring +assists! Even by the graph his game 4 was woeful compared to other games in the SAME series. That's the evidence he's using to try and equate Dirk and Lebron here. You're correct above, Dirk wasn't 'that' great in the finals but he came through big in the 4th quarters. We all know the graph showing what Bron did comparatively. They're literally begging for it at this point.

the irony is Dirk's general screen action and spacing is what allowed jose barea to go off, and the Kidd + Tyson alley oop connection to flourish.

Dallas was the 2nd rank assist team in the whole league in 2011. The heat? 26th.

:roll:

Personal assists mean jack shit. Ball movement is what matters.

[KD7]

Are we really trying to muddy the Dirk-Lebron thing by throwing in assists? Dirk is not a high assist guy. We don't have to bring up 'that' 4th quarter graph again, do we? Gmscore, you know that stat you guys like to use when it suites you? Dirk 16.6, Lebron 13.7. Wade, the 'choker'? 22.4. Oh and for shits and giggles, Terry was 13.4. Yes, Lebron's score was basically the same as Jason Terry.

Jason Terry was good for 18 of those points on his own. Only 7 players played meanigful minutes. Barea and Stephenson each started 3 games. I look at the Heat bench and I see Chalmers scored 11.8 and Haslem scored 6.7. 12ppg from the Heat bench?!Chalmers started one game so maybe you're trying to sneak him in there as a starter, but he came off the bench for 5 games.
LeBrons starting point guard averaged 3.8ppg :roll::roll::roll:

Stop acting like assists don't matter, Wade got the bulk of his points from LeBron assists and the fact that the entire Mavs defense was focused on stopping LeBron

And once again how come no one mentions how dogshit Bosh was that series?

[light]

you trolls are getting really bad.

He put up 8 points on 75 ORTG in game 4.

It might be the worst game from a superstar of all time given the stakes.

No, he put up 22 points. And the stakes in game 4 weren't even high. The Heat were up 2-1 in the series.

I know you want it to be a disaster but it wasn't.

The worst game from a superstar of all time is probably something like Dirk Nowitzki's elimination game vs Warriors in 2007 - 8 points, 2 assists, 15% shooting, 61 ORTG. To lose in the first round like that after winning 67 games...

[Phoenix]

LeBrons starting point guard averaged 3.8ppg :roll::roll::roll:

Stop acting like assists don't matter, Wade got the bulk of his points from LeBron assists and the fact that the entire Mavs defense was focused on stopping LeBron

And once again how come no one mentions how dogshit Bosh was that series?

Nice try. Bibby was PG in title only. Lebron has always been the leading assist man on every team he's ever played on, and he's been on 4 of them.

Who said assists don't matter? The point I'm making is Lebron's SCORING was well below par for the series and you're trying to deflect that elsewhere. Bosh shot poorly but he did put him 19ppg. He produced. And really, Bosh was the one who had to modify his game the most and basically become a stretch 4 on the fly. He's the worst of the 3, but was also the one who had to make the biggest sacrifice in his game relative to what it was pre-Heat.

[Phoenix]

No, he put up 22 points. And the stakes in game 4 weren't even high. The Heat were up 2-1 in the series.




Let's draw a map of that situation for you. The Heat were up 2-1. If they win they're up 3-1. Two of the last 3 games are in Miami. The statistical probability is high that Miami wins the series in that situation. So, your synopsis of that scenario is that this isn't high stakes. Never mind the fact that we're talking about the FINALS so every game is and of itself is one step directly towards a ring. But THAT situation? Meh, not high stakes.

Incredible.

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

But but but scoring +assists! Even by the graph his game 4 was woeful compared to other games in the SAME series. That's the evidence he's using to try and equate Dirk and Lebron here. You're correct above, Dirk wasn't 'that' great in the finals but he came through big in the 4th quarters. We all know the graph showing what Bron did comparatively. They're literally begging for it at this point.
The majority of games between 2 good teams comes down to a few possesssions

It doesn't really matter if the star plays like crap for 3.5 quarters because it's a team game, aka teammates usually make it up and the game will be tight down the stretch

So the only thing that really matters is how guys play in the clutch.. bad stats with great clutch > good stats

Also, a star might shoot poorly, but it's all relative to how the series was playing and how others shot in that series..

[Phoenix]

The majority of games between 2 good teams comes down to a few possesssions

It doesn't really matter if the star plays like crap for 3.5 quarters because it's a team game, aka teammates usually make it up and the game will be tight down the stretch

So the only thing that really matters is how guys play in the clutch.. bad stats with great clutch > good stats

Also, a star might shoot poorly, but it's all relative to how the series was playing and how others shot in that series..

https://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmkjpwbjh01qh9wcto1_500.jpg

Basically what you said encapsulated in one very clear image. And they're desperate for ANY angle they can find. I didn't feel like dropping this....again....but they asked for it.

[KD7]

https://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmkjpwbjh01qh9wcto1_500.jpg

Basically what you said encapsulated in one very clear image. And they're desperate for ANY angle they can find. I didn't feel like dropping this....again....but they asked for it.
One was being tripled every time he touched the basketball

The other didn't get doubled at all

You call LeBron a point guard yet at the same time criticize him for not scoring enough

Only LeBron is expected to carry the scoring + playmaking + defensive burden on his team at the same time

If the Heat bench didn't get outscored by a single player then maybe the Heat would have won game 4 as well

[Phoenix]

One was being tripled every time he touched the basketball

The other didn't get doubled at all

You call LeBron a point guard yet at the same time criticize him for not scoring enough

Only LeBron is expected to carry the scoring + playmaking + defensive burden on his team at the same time

If the Heat bench didn't get outscored by a single player then maybe the Heat would have won game 4 as well

I said he's been the leading assist man.

"Lebron has always been the leading assist man on every team he's ever played on, and he's been on 4 of them."

Lebron has been a point-forward his entire career.

Lebron's career average is 27 and 7. He's a career 29ppg playoff performer. 8 points. Don't be dumb.

[3ball]

One was being tripled every time he touched the basketball




Quit lying

Teams don't overtly double lebron

If you're talking about shading or playing halfway - that's cool - but that's where lebron's bulky physique and sub-par repertoire comes in

More importantly, his weak jumpshooting skill... Other guys have the skill to shoot over a defense by getting off quality jumpers

And if he did that, then he could attract the overt double teams and really have control of the game

He was nowhere near doing any of this in that series.. shrank like a frightened turtle

[tpols]

it's crazy the lies people tell...

Lebron was zoned out in the 2011 Finals. He wasnt pressured at all. He was sagged off and dared to challenge a 7 foot DPOY at the rim.

DIRK was the one who was having the kitchen sink thrown at him with no other superstar teammates to alleviate pressure and miami being a great swarming perimeter defense.

[Phoenix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A1kAqYgXv8

Dirk was hitting from all over the court. He was beating double teams, quick strikes before the 2nd defender could come, drives and pull-ups, cutting to the basket, elbow post-ups. You can cry about Miami's defensive schemes all you want, Manny.

Manny98/KD7: 'he wasn't doubled-teamed'. Fukk outta here with your mini-violin.

[dbugz]

Imagine scoring 8 points in a finals game against jj barea and jason terry :roll: :roll:

[KD7]

Quit lying

Teams don't overtly double lebron

If you're talking about shading or playing halfway - that's cool - but that's where lebron's bulky physique and sub-par repertoire comes in

More importantly, his weak jumpshooting skill... Other guys have the skill to shoot over a defense by getting off quality jumpers

And if he did that, then he could attract the overt double teams and really have control of the game

He was nowhere near doing any of this in that series.. shrank like a frightened turtle
From Marc Cubans own mouth saying that Dallas game plan was to get the ball out of LeBrons hands and let his teammates score


“Are we in a zone? What type of zone are we in? How are we matching up? What kind of rotations are we in?” Cuban said, describing the thought process James had to go through every time he touched the ball. “Making him think made them pass the ball around the perimeter, which gave us a chance to adjust.

“Now they’re smarter, they’re a better team. They deserved to win this year. But that’s the way we played it. So it wasn’t just LeBron. LeBron actually played it right more often than not. He made the right pass to the right guy, who didn’t make the right play. And that’s exactly what we wanted. We wanted to get the ball out of hid hands and into the hands of somebody else.”

[Roundball_Rock]

Bosh wasn't going to equate to Dirk but at the least statistically, he didn't drop off from the regular season

No but he could have stepped up as LeBron stepped down. Instead he stayed level with his norm for 2011.


Imagine scoring 8 points in a finals game

Bird, Kobe did it and no one remembers. Magic had three 10 point games in the finals. Does the extra 2 make a difference? He also had a 2, 6, 7, and a pair of 10 point games in the WCF. Granted Magic tended to do other things in those games but you can say that about LeBron in the Dallas series too, as some in this thread are.

[Phoenix]

Manny/KD7: "One( Lebron) was being tripled every time he touched the basketball"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfeWcwlHYRI



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDgOIcnp-iY


https://media.giphy.com/media/4MHv5aIo6SI2A/giphy.gif

No he wasn't.

[Phoenix]

No but he could have stepped up as LeBron stepped down. Instead he stayed level with his norm for 2011.



That's the point thought. Whether Bosh 'should' have stepped up, if everyone played at their 'norm', the Heat very likely win the series. None of the big 3 needed to play much better, they just couldn't afford anyone to majorly drop off and let's be honest, Lebron playing well and Bosh being 'meh' gives much better margin for error than Bosh being 'meh' and Lebron being 'wtf'( relative to what we know he's capable of). There's levels to this.

[3ball]

No but he could have stepped up as LeBron stepped down. Instead he stayed level with his norm for 2011.



Bird, Kobe did it and no one remembers. Magic had three 10 point games in the finals. Does the extra 2 make a difference? He also had a 2, 6, 7, and a pair of 10 point games in the WCF. Granted Magic tended to do other things in those games but you can say that about LeBron in the Dallas series too, as some in this thread are.

See, lebron isn't any better than those guys

His lows match theirs

[Elosha]

1) 2011 and 2014 was not a super team

2) He did not have the luxury of facing 10 ppg Jeff Hornacek (#2 option)

3) He did not have the luxury of playing with a 1st team NBA defender

4) He did not have a defensive anchor every year

5) He faced legendary teams

The Jazz would have spanked LBJ, just like Spurs and Mavs. LBJ's achilles heel is smart, team oriented champions. Jazz would have been one but for the Bulls.

[KD7]

Manny/KD7: "One( Lebron) was being tripled every time he touched the basketball"





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDgOIcnp-iY


No he wasn't.
Never seen so much help defense in my entire life :roll::roll:

The Dallas defense weren't paying attention to anyone outside of LeBron

[KD7]

Teams don't overtly double lebron

https://i.postimg.cc/TPfWBGzw/reyvNe.gif

[3ball]

https://i.postimg.cc/TPfWBGzw/reyvNe.gif

Lebron was doubled on 5.4% of possessions in the 2015 Finals - that's 1 in 20 times...

Otoh, mj actually WAS doubled on every.... single.... possession... Read all about it here, including 25+ GIF's (compared to your 1 gif):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?386210-MJ-is-the-most-double-teamed-player-of-all-time-besides-Wilt

[Phoenix]

Never seen so much help defense in my entire life :roll::roll:

The Dallas defense weren't paying attention to anyone outside of LeBron

Bullshit misinterpretation of what you're seeing, complete with retarded rolling emojis. You saw Jason Kidd playing him 40 feet out a few times. You saw him drive into the paint and another defender come over. You saw him settle for a few open 3s. You saw him miss a few point blank layups. You said he was triple teamed every time with the ball. That video says otherwise so......you're a liar who can be caught out with a 10 second google search.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's the point thought. Whether Bosh 'should' have stepped up, if everyone played at their 'norm', the Heat very likely win the series. None of the big 3 needed to play much better, they just couldn't afford anyone to majorly drop off and let's be honest, Lebron playing well and Bosh being 'meh' gives much better margin for error than Bosh being 'meh' and Lebron being 'wtf'( relative to what we know he's capable of). There's levels to this.

I agree. LeBron choked hard and he deserves the bulk of the blame. I am just noting Bosh gets off scot free.


Jazz would have been one but for the Bulls.

Which is why they won after the Bulls were broken up, right? There is no guarantee the Jazz win if the Bulls never existed. Or maybe they won 1 of those 2 finals. People keep automatically ascribing rings to the finals loses, even though the EC would have a representative in place of the Bulls. Also, if the Bulls aren't a super team maybe teams like the Jazz do more to compete. Their "big" move for Hornacek was in 94'. They did nothing after losing the WCF in 96' or losing the finals twice.

[Phoenix]

I agree. LeBron choked hard and he deserves the bulk of the blame. I am just noting Bosh gets off scot free. .

Bosh had his moments. He was really good against Chicago and Wade was subpar that series. Big issue with that team was bringing 3 guys together who were all 'the man' on their own teams, in the primes of their careers, and needed to figure out how the pieces fit. Bosh had the same issue that Love would have: where and how does the 'third' star fit into the puzzle?

You could say they more or less 'talented' their way through the first year and were much better in 2012 with depth and more defined roles. Wade played more off Lebron as opposed to the 'whose turn is it' dynamic that first year. But 2011 was also the last true peak year for Wade and Bosh had his own health issues as time passed. The pecking order kind of worked itself out on-court as well as Wade basically handing over the keys and he take the front passenger seat.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bosh had his moments. He was really good against Chicago and Wade was subpar that series. Big issue with that team was bringing 3 guys together who were all 'the man' on their own teams, in the primes of their careers, and needed to figure out how the pieces fit. Bosh had the same issue that Love would have: where and how does the 'third' star fit into the puzzle?

You could say they more or less 'talented' their way through the first year and were much better in 2012 with depth and more defined roles. Wade played more off Lebron as opposed to the 'whose turn is it' dynamic that first year. But 2011 was also the last true peak year for Wade and Bosh had his own health issues as time passed. The pecking order kind of worked itself out on-court as well as Wade basically handing over the keys and he take the front passenger seat.

Good points. The chemistry issues were big problems in 11', as was having no bench. They improved their depth in later years as ring chasers showed up but they were a 3 man team in 11'.

Despite all that, if LeBron doesn't melt down they still win.

[Elosha]

I agree. LeBron choked hard and he deserves the bulk of the blame. I am just noting Bosh gets off scot free.



Which is why they won after the Bulls were broken up, right? There is no guarantee the Jazz win if the Bulls never existed. Or maybe they won 1 of those 2 finals. People keep automatically ascribing rings to the finals loses, even though the EC would have a representative in place of the Bulls. Also, if the Bulls aren't a super team maybe teams like the Jazz do more to compete. Their "big" move for Hornacek was in 94'. They did nothing after losing the WCF in 96' or losing the finals twice.

Jazz are a bit like Mavs in 2011 They had a short window to win, but they ran into Jordan and the Bulls, not LBJ and his co-stars. In 1999, after 2 grueling years getting to the Finals, they were old and spent, and coming up against the next generation's emerging powerhouses.

Sure, no one can say with absolute certainty the Jazz would have won in 97-98 if playing Miami or Indiana, but you can't also tell me with a straight face that those Jazz aren't the kind of team that's given LeBron nightmares throughout his playoff career.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jazz are a bit like Mavs in 2011 They had a short window to win, but they ran into Jordan and the Bulls, not LBJ and his co-stars

I disagree. The Jazz had a long window to win. They made 5 WCF's from 1992-1998. They won 55 games in 1990; they won 55 games in 2000. They were perennial contenders. They just never got it done, in part because Malone and Stockton shrunk in the playoffs.


but you can't also tell me with a straight face that those Jazz aren't the kind of team that's given LeBron nightmares throughout his playoff career.

Fair point.

[Elosha]

I disagree. The Jazz had a long window to win. They made 5 WCF's from 1992-1998. They won 55 games in 1990; they won 55 games in 2000. They were perennial contenders. They just never got it done, in part because Malone and Stockton shrunk in the playoffs.



Fair point.

You raise a valid point as well as to the Jazz. Quite arguably they underachieved earlier, although to be fair Phoenix in 93, Seattle in 96 and Houston in 94-95 especially were a tall task for anyone on the WC to handle. But what I meant is that they honestly broke through for 2 years in 97-98. They had a hard nosed defender and underrated scorer in B. Russell. Stockton and Malone were still at the tail end of their prime, Ostertag was a force in the middle by his size alone, Hornacek was inconsistent, yes, but still steady, and most importantly, they just jelled those years. They seemed a team of destiny, like when Stockton hit the playoff series winner over Barkley. They had the look and feel of a champion, and I've watched enough basketball to see it. They were running downhill in some of those playoff games in 97-98 and were so HUNGRY. It's hard, really hard, to stave off a team like that. That's why I think they might have actually steamrolled a team like LeBron's Heat, much like the Mavs and 2014 Spurs did (and 2013 Spurs should have/almost did do). The 97-98 Jazz had the type of team - the type of hunger and mentality - that often cuts through LeBron's teams like butter.

[knicksman]

coz lebron is a fraud. If this is a video game, fraud games usually focus on graphics to hide their shit gameplay. With players, they focus on stats to hide their shit skills. And thats who lebron is. Theres a reason why only nerds love him.

[Manny98]

Bullshit misinterpretation of what you're seeing, complete with retarded rolling emojis. You saw Jason Kidd playing him 40 feet out a few times. You saw him drive into the paint and another defender come over. You saw him settle for a few open 3s. You saw him miss a few point blank layups. You said he was triple teamed every time with the ball. That video says otherwise so......you're a liar who can be caught out with a 10 second google search.
https://i.postimg.cc/TPfWBGzw/reyvNe.gif

[Phoenix]

https://i.postimg.cc/TPfWBGzw/reyvNe.gif

What point are you trying to make with this gif? Lebron was backing down Kidd and then Marion came over to help. Is that one of the 'triple teams' you're referring to? Cause that's not one, so kudos on using a gif that doesn't illustrate what you say happened every time. :applause:

[dbugz]

libron is playing against grandpas on that series.

What's that another excuse?

:roll:

[ELITEpower23]

Lebron was doubled on 5.4% of possessions in the 2015 Finals - that's 1 in 20 times...

Otoh, mj actually WAS doubled on every.... single.... possession... Read all about it here, including 25+ GIF's (compared to your 1 gif):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?386210-MJ-is-the-most-double-teamed-player-of-all-time-besides-Wilt

LBJ can pass, MJ cannot. There is no risk in double teaming a player that cannot pass.

[Roundball_Rock]

You raise a valid point as well as to the Jazz. Quite arguably they underachieved earlier, although to be fair Phoenix in 93, Seattle in 96 and Houston in 94-95 especially were a tall task for anyone on the WC to handle. But what I meant is that they honestly broke through for 2 years in 97-98

Underachieved is one way to look at it. The other way is they didn't start winning the WC until Drexler, Hakeem, Barkley all got old.

The Jazz were good but they also almost lost in the first round to a 41 win team in 98'. They were down 2-1 (best of 5 back then).

I think the Knicks were the Bulls' best competitor in the 90's. The Jazz just benefited from the superstars who they lost to previously aging and Seattle being choke artists (outside of one run in 96').


LBJ can pass, MJ cannot. There is no risk in double teaming a player that cannot pass.

Yeah it is crazy to double team an all-time great passer like LeBron.

[3ball]

There is no risk in double teaming a player that cannot pass.





^^^ maybe to Rachel Nichols... Are you Rachel Nichols??

But to anyone that knows the game:



"Double teams create a 4-on-3 off the ball" - Lebron James

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZOzilY8o14&t=01m15s


4-on-3's initiate out-numbered ball movement, which is bad for any defense - that's why double-teaming got 6 rings for MJ...:confusedshrug:

Otoh, Lebron can't attract double-teams because Stan Van Gundy said they preferred his long dribbles rather than ball movement from a 4-on-3... And Lebron's jumper rarely gets hot so there's no need to get the ball out of his hands.. just meet him at the rim with bodies and otherwise stay at home and shut down teammates