MJ got held to 42% in 98 by these defenders

[egokiller]

Yes, the GOAT who went 6/6 with 6 FMVP and didn't even know how to allow a game 7 got held to 42% by these amazing defensive players. Can you imagine Lebron trying to do something against these guys if they played today and the rule set was the same as in 98? He'd be held to 30%. MJ barely got 42% on them and this is the GOAT we are talking about. How lucky is it that LeBron managed to avoid having to play against competition like this?

https://i.postimg.cc/hj3c22p6/screen-shot-2015-08-25-at-2-33-24-pm.png

[SpaceJam2]

Yes, the GOAT who went 6/6 with 6 FMVP and didn't even know how to allow a game 7 got held to 42% by these amazing defensive players. Can you imagine Lebron trying to do something against these guys if they played today and the rule set was the same as in 98? He'd be held to 30%. MJ barely got 42% on them and this is the GOAT we are talking about. How lucky is it that LeBron managed to avoid having to play against competition like this?

https://i.postimg.cc/hj3c22p6/screen-shot-2015-08-25-at-2-33-24-pm.png

Exactly

#NotMyGoat

[fourkicks44]

It was a long time ago but my recollection of that time was MJ being mostly guarded by Bryon Russell and Shandon Anderson :confusedshrug:

[Manny98]

Those are NBA players :eek: :eek:

They look like my local plumbers, your telling me that these are the physical behemoths that held MJ to 42% :oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

Cue pictures of Jason Terry and jj barea

And At least mj won :facepalm

[90sgoat]

Stockton would give Bran the Barea treatment x 2

[SpaceJam2]

Those are NBA players :eek: :eek:

They look like my local plumbers, your telling me that these are the physical behemoths that held MJ to 42% :oldlol:

Imagine every possession against these fools :lol

[Manny98]

Imagine every possession against these fools :lol
LeBron would literally average 50ppg against those plumbers :roll:

[SpaceJam2]

LeBron would literally average 50ppg against those plumbers :roll:


36-13-9 on Iggy, Klay, Dray so YUP an ez 50 on those autozone checkers

[SpaceJam2]

https://i.ibb.co/yp6hnXZ/iggy1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/KLQTtbz/iggy2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/p0b9Vgs/iggyyy4.jpg


https://i.ibb.co/GQhpsYD/iggy3.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/qrPb0gQ/igggg7.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/wrxMjvt/iggy6.jpg


All I need to see

[egokiller]

Lebron got destroyed by Berea and Terry. He

[Manny98]

Lebron got destroyed by Berea and Terry. He’d be lucky to shoot 30% against the 98 Jazz.
He was mostly guarded by Jason Kidd & Shawn Marion 2 all time great defensive players and was getting tripled every time he touched the ball and still somehow shot 47% against the Mavs whilst MJ shot 42% against plumbers :applause:

[SpaceJam2]

He was mostly guarded by Jason Kidd & Shawn Marion 2 all time great defensive players and was getting tripled every time he touched the ball and still somehow shot 47% against the Mavs whilst MJ shot 42% against plumbers :applause:


Dont forget next years DPOY winner Young, Prime Tyson Chandler

2ez

:hammertime:

[Showtime80']

LOL, I'll bite.

Here are the shooting percentages of Shaq, Kobe and Tim Duncan in the playoffs vs the Jazz in 1998 when compared to the regular season:

Shaq- Reg. Season 58%
Against Jazz 56%

Kobe- Reg Season 43%
Against Jazz 37%

Duncan- Reg. Season 55%
Against Jazz 49%

All those guys were young athletic bucks in 1998 and the Jazz still BLITZED the Spurs and Lakers 8-1!!! Those guys would go on to win the next 5 titles and 11 titles from 1999 to 2014 (LeBaldo's era)

Different set of rules in 1998, defenses could be physical and had the freedom to make like miserable for athletic offensive players like the Jazz did led by old Malone, Stockton and Hornacek, LOL!!!

Jordan at the end still prevailed, at 34 and running on fumes from playing 82 games while Pippen missed half the season leading the Bulls to 62 wins in the process and enduring a grueling 7 games against the physical Pacers in the ECF.

LeBron doesn't belong in that era, he belongs in the offensively enhanced ruled altered NBA of the mid 2000's onward. His flopping primadonna behind would've gotten severely limited against disciplined defensive teams like the Jazz or the Bulls.

[Duncan21formvp]

Lebron averaged less than 5 ppg against a Puerto Rican in Carlos Arroyo.:oldlol:

[3ball]

It was a long time ago but my recollection of that time was MJ being mostly guarded by Bryon Russell and Shandon Anderson :confusedshrug:
https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-09-2019/m9HSej.gif

[ImKobe]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-09-2019/m9HSej.gif

:roll:

[ShawkFactory]

[QUOTE=egokiller]Lebron got destroyed by Berea and Terry. He

[Manny98]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-09-2019/m9HSej.gif
Hornacek held him to 0 points :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Trollsmasher]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-09-2019/m9HSej.gif
Jeff "Big D" Hornacek

[Da_Realist]

LOL, I'll bite.

Here are the shooting percentages of Shaq, Kobe and Tim Duncan in the playoffs vs the Jazz in 1998 when compared to the regular season:

Shaq- Reg. Season 58%
Against Jazz 56%

Kobe- Reg Season 43%
Against Jazz 37%

Duncan- Reg. Season 55%
Against Jazz 49%

All those guys were young athletic bucks in 1998 and the Jazz still BLITZED the Spurs and Lakers 8-1!!! Those guys would go on to win the next 5 titles and 11 titles from 1999 to 2014 (LeBaldo's era)

Different set of rules in 1998, defenses could be physical and had the freedom to make like miserable for athletic offensive players like the Jazz did led by old Malone, Stockton and Hornacek, LOL!!!

Jordan at the end still prevailed, at 34 and running on fumes from playing 82 games while Pippen missed half the season leading the Bulls to 62 wins in the process and enduring a grueling 7 games against the physical Pacers in the ECF.

LeBron doesn't belong in that era, he belongs in the offensively enhanced ruled altered NBA of the mid 2000's onward. His flopping primadonna behind would've gotten severely limited against disciplined defensive teams like the Jazz or the Bulls.

As always :applause:

[egokiller]

Hornacek held him to 0 points

Exactly the point of this thread. He held the GOAT MJ to 0 points so imagine what he'd do against LeBron. MJ was 0/3 against him, LeBron would be 0/15 or 0/20.

[Trollsmasher]

Dont forget next years DPOY winner Young, Prime Tyson Chandler

2ez

:hammertime:
most improtantly LeBron was a designated 3rd option in that series (as per preseason agreement with Wade because it was "Wade's team") and as such put up the GOAT 3rd option performance

Wade and Bosh couldn't capitalize

[Hey Yo]

Hornacek held him to 0 points :roll: :roll: :roll:
Thread backfire at it's finest.

[Hey Yo]

Exactly the point of this thread. He held the GOAT MJ to 0 points so imagine what he'd do against LeBron. MJ was 0/3 against him, LeBron would be 0/15 or 0/20.
So why didn't the great Jerry Sloan notice Hornacek was locking up MJ like a pitbull on a poodle and assign him to guard MJ every game?

[egokiller]

So why didn't the great Jerry Sloan notice Hornacek was locking up MJ like a pitbull on a poodle and assign him to guard MJ every game?

Because Hornacek was the Jazz 3rd offensive scorer and Sloan wanted him to conserve his energy for offense during most matchups as Karl and Stockton only had so much in the tank. That's why Russell carried a bulk of the defensive load for covering MJ. I'm not saying Hornacek would be the primary defender on LeBron in all their matchups, but if he was, LeBron would fair far worse vs Hornacek than MJ ever did. MJ is and always will be a superior player that LeBron. He actually has more than 2 moves to the basket.

Nice try chico.

[Hey Yo]

Because Hornacek was the Jazz 3rd offensive scorer and Sloan wanted him to conserve his energy for offense during most matchups as Karl and Stockton only had so much in the tank. That's why Russell carried a bulk of the defensive load for covering MJ. I'm not saying Hornacek would be the primary defender on LeBron in all their matchups, but if he was, LeBron would fair far worse vs Hornacek than MJ ever did. MJ is and always will be a superior player that LeBron. He actually has more than 2 moves to the basket.

Nice try chico.
Gotta conserve that energy to avg 10ppg?? The exact same amount of points the 2nd option avg??

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[egokiller]

Gotta conserve that energy to avg 10ppg?? The exact same amount of points the 2nd option avg??

:oldlol: :oldlol:

10ppg back then is like 25 ppg now. You keep forgetting that defense was actually allowed to be played back then.

[Manny98]

10ppg back then is like 25 ppg now. You keep forgetting that defense was actually allowed to be played back then.
So MJs 30ppg would be the equivalent to averaging 75ppg in this era according to your logic :oldlol:

[egokiller]

So MJs 30ppg would be the equivalent to averaging 75ppg in this era according to your logic :oldlol:

No, it would be an additional 15ppg. You are bad at math. Get back to flipping those burgers.

[Hey Yo]

10ppg back then is like 25 ppg now. You keep forgetting that defense was actually allowed to be played back then.
If defense isn't allowed now..... then why you praising all players not named LeBron for their offense and say they're better?

:oldlol:

[egokiller]

If defense isn't allowed now..... then why you praising all players not named LeBron for their offense and say they're better?

:oldlol:

:facepalm

Players of today scoring more than lebron because they have more than 2 moves in this no defense era still doesn't mean that they would score just as much if they played against actual defenses like what 98 MJ faced.

No wonder why you are confused. You think it's easier to score the basketball then compared to now.

[Hey Yo]

:facepalm

Players of today scoring more than lebron because they have more than 2 moves in this no defense era still doesn't mean that they would score just as much if they played against actual defenses like what 98 MJ faced.

No wonder why you are confused. You think it's easier to score the basketball then compared to now.
No wonder you play both sides of the fence cause your ruined by James.

"James has it too easy in this no defense era"

hops over fence

Donic is way better than LeBron ever was

Not surprised you're too dumb to even recognize what your doing. You've been doing the same with Kyrie's game 7 for 4yrs.

[egokiller]

No wonder you play both sides of the fence cause your ruined by James.

"James has it too easy in this no defense era"

hops over fence

Donic is way better than LeBron ever was

Not surprised you're too dumb to even recognize what your doing. You've been doing the same with Kyrie's game 7 for 4yrs.

Luka and Lebron play under the same rule set. Keep trying chico.

[NBASTATMAN]

Hornacek and Stockton wouldn't even be starters in todays league.. MJ is so overrated..

[Turbo Slayer]

Hornacek and Stockton wouldn't even be starters in todays league.. MJ is so overrated..
FACTS!!!

Hornecek averaged 14 points and Stockton averaged 12 points in 1997-1998 season. LMAO!!!! :roll:

[NBASTATMAN]

Luka and Lebron play under the same rule set. Keep trying chico.


The best players MJ had to face was Karl Malone and Stockton. You are right Lebron is going against much better players and 73 win teams add TOP TIER GOAT LEVEL players to beat him..

LEBRON IS DEF THE GOAT.. ASK DAVID WEST :banana:

[egokiller]

The best players MJ had to face was Karl Malone and Stockton. You are right Lebron is going against much better players and 73 win teams add TOP TIER GOAT LEVEL players to beat him..

LEBRON IS DEF THE GOAT.. ASK DAVID WEST :banana:

Lebron has only played against players not allowed to play correct defense. He really hasn't accomplished anything like the players before him that actually had to go up against players that were allowed to play defense. :applause:

[NBASTATMAN]

Lebron has only played against players not allowed to play correct defense. He really hasn't accomplished anything like the players before him that actually had to go up against players that were allowed to play defense. :applause:


Dude Lebron is playing vs some of the greatest players ever. Players who can shoot from 35 feet , dribble thru double teams, pass and dunk with the greatest of all time players..

Lebron is the GOAT... Even STEPHEN A is saying he is up to number 2.. If LEBRON wins a ring at this age with this many minutes than he is the undisputed GOAT.. Lebron isn't even close to being the player he was three years ago but his IQ keeps him playing at a high level.. :applause: :bowdown:

[NBASTATMAN]

If defense isn't allowed now..... then why you praising all players not named LeBron for their offense and say they're better?

:oldlol:


EGO is getting shit on over and over.. He can't get his story straight.. :oldlol: :roll:

[egokiller]

Egokiller: No defense is being played today and it's shit compared to the past.

NBASTATMAN: Players today are shooting from 35 feet , dribblng thru double teams, passing and dunking everywhere.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Thanks for proving my point.

I don't even have to put effort in. You just prove me right by simply responding.

[TheCorporation]

FACTS!!!

Hornecek averaged 14 points and Stockton averaged 12 points in 1997-1998 season. LMAO!!!! :roll:


Bingo

[FireDavidKahn]

Mr. Owens? I thought you taught math?

[FireDavidKahn]

He was mostly guarded by Jason Kidd & Shawn Marion 2 all time great defensive players and was getting tripled every time he touched the ball and still somehow shot 47% against the Mavs whilst MJ shot 42% against plumbers :applause:

SOmething only a GOAT could do.:rockon:

[FireDavidKahn]

Gotta conserve that energy to avg 10ppg?? The exact same amount of points the 2nd option avg??

:oldlol: :oldlol:

:roll:

[FireDavidKahn]

Dude Lebron is playing vs some of the greatest players ever. Players who can shoot from 35 feet , dribble thru double teams, pass and dunk with the greatest of all time players..

Lebron is the GOAT... Even STEPHEN A is saying he is up to number 2.. If LEBRON wins a ring at this age with this many minutes than he is the undisputed GOAT.. Lebron isn't even close to being the player he was three years ago but his IQ keeps him playing at a high level.. :applause: :bowdown:

Exactly. People keep saying that defense isn't allowed but it's more like the skill level of the players in the NBA has seen a dramatic improvement vs. when MJ played.

What you see happening today is the result of the skill of the league being so much higher then it has been in the past.

LeBron just outclasses everyone. He has an actual legitimate shot to score the points ever AND finish in the top 5 in total assists. He make's passes like these all the damn time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgSuxtM8n-g

[superduper]

Exactly. People keep saying that defense isn't allowed but it's more like the skill level of the players in the NBA has seen a dramatic improvement vs. when MJ played.

What you see happening today is the result of the skill of the league being so much higher then it has been in the past.

LeBron just outclasses everyone. He has an actual legitimate shot to score the points ever AND finish in the top 5 in total assists. He make's passes like these all the damn time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgSuxtM8n-g

So you are straight up denying the fact that NBA had multiple rule changes since Jordan's era to allow for zero contact and phantom fouls to be a regular thing. Defense being ban. Rim protection being ban.

Are you also a flat earther?

[FireDavidKahn]

So you are straight up denying the fact that NBA had multiple rule changes since Jordan's era to allow for zero contact and phantom fouls to be a regular thing. Defense being ban. Rim protection being ban.

Are you also a flat earther?

No I live in reality.

Zero chance the "poverty era" players could match the shooting prowess with the unrelenting assault of 35+ footers everynight. They barely shot 3's back then because they couldn't! Only a very few could but the vast majority couldn't. That's just shooting.

[superduper]

No I live in reality.

Zero chance the "poverty era" players could match the shooting prowess with the unrelenting assault of 35+ footers everynight. They barely shot 3's back then because they couldn't! Only a very few could but the vast majority couldn't. That's just shooting.

Nothing in your post aligns with reality.

Good luck living in your delusion.

[ELITEpower23]

Yes, the GOAT who went 6/6 with 6 FMVP and didn't even know how to allow a game 7 got held to 42% by these amazing defensive players. Can you imagine Lebron trying to do something against these guys if they played today and the rule set was the same as in 98? He'd be held to 30%. MJ barely got 42% on them and this is the GOAT we are talking about. How lucky is it that LeBron managed to avoid having to play against competition like this?

https://i.postimg.cc/hj3c22p6/screen-shot-2015-08-25-at-2-33-24-pm.png

Wow

[light]

1998 version of Jordan would not be anywhere near good enough to win today.

[LAmbruh]

Hornacek held him to 0 points :roll: :roll: :roll:

:roll:

[3ball]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-09-2019/m9HSej.gif


and he shot 42% because he had 41% usage (used 41% of possessions)

no one in history had that burden, and therefore that level of defensive attention.. a complete carry-job - Lebron loses by record amount with the help mj had because he would use 10-15 less possessions per game like the 14' or 18' Finals

[ELITEpower23]

he shot 42% because he had 41% usage (used 41% of possessions)

no one in history had that burden, and therefore that level of defensive attention.. a complete carry-job - Lebron loses by record amount with the help mj had because he would use 10-15 less possessions per game like the 14' or 18' Finals
"Burden" :lol

It's not a burden when that's what the guy wanted to do LOL MJ chose to ball hog. Do you also want to talk about the other "burden" of having to face an opponents second option that is scoring at a 14 ppg clip :lol Funny kid.

[HoopsNY]

"Burden" :lol

It's not a burden when that's what the guy wanted to do LOL MJ chose to ball hog. Do you also want to talk about the other "burden" of having to face an opponents second option that is scoring at a 14 ppg clip :lol Funny kid.

Well who else was going to do it? Aside from Toni Kukoc, who provided reasonable shooting and scoring for Chicago? These were some of the Bulls' supporting players' shooting percentages (fg%, 3pt%, fth%) in the 1998 finals:

Pippen: 41%-23%-83%
Kerr: 35%-38%-100%
Harper: 36%-17%-58%
Kukoc: 50%-30%-61%
Burrell: 41%-25%-67%

And this is an odd shot at Mj who took 27.3 fg attempts a game. Intuition tells you the higher volume, the more likely your fg % is to drop. In Mj's case, he had to take on such a scoring role, particularly after Scottie's back injury in the ECF against Indiana. So who was MJ really passing to or creating shots for when his #2 was handicapped?

Jordan was 35 and forced to take that many shots. Let's look at another player who had a similar scenario in LeBron James in 2015 who, at a younger age of 31, saw Kyrie Irving go down in the OT of game 1, thus having to take over scoring. Let's compare numbers:

LeBron: 32.6 fga
Jordan: 27.3 fga

LeBron: .398 fg%
Jordan: .427 fg%

LeBron: .477 TS%
Jordan: .516 TS%

LeBron: 24.6 GmSc
Jordan: 21.4 GmSc

Clearly this is more of an issue of volume and having to take over the scoring load than it actually is about being "overrated." I mean, did you lot even watch the series?

And Hornacek and Stockton weren't even the main defenders on Jordan, Russell was. But if you want to take a shot at Hornacek/Stockton, then it's funny how they're good defenders when they limit the Lakers' backcourt to the following field goal percentages:

Eddie Jones: 41%
Kobe Bryant: 37%
Nick Van Exel: 24%
Derek Fisher: 35%

But when they face Chicago's backcourt, they're suddenly trash defenders? And I love the fact that Mj gets held to the highest standard of his career, at the age of 35, in his last finals appearance, with an injured #2, of all series. Good job guys. #TheHateIsReal

[Roundball_Rock]

The MJ talking point flip flops make your head spin. Just yesterday it was how great he was at fitting in with players--now it is back to "MJ all by himself."


Well who else was going to do it? Aside from Toni Kukoc, who provided reasonable shooting and scoring for Chicago? These were some of the Bulls' supporting players' shooting percentages (fg%, 3pt%, fth%) in the 1998 finals:


These are misleading numbers. As has been noted several times, the Bulls' had two second options for the series due to Pippen's injuries. It also ignores the corresponding numbers for the other team. I'll bookmark this because we have to go through this every week on ISH.


In Mj's case, he had to take on such a scoring role, particularly after Scottie's back injury in the ECF against Indiana.

Game 5 in the finals is when it flared up.

Let's get to the real numbers in context:

Pippen games 1-4: 20/7/4 on 57% TS
Kukoc games 5-6: 23/5/2 on 75% TS

That is fine offensive production from a second option in any series, let alone compared to what the other team was getting:

Hornacek: 10.7
Stockton: 9.7

In other words, the Chicago second option was outscored the Jazz's second and third options combined, including the great Stockton who MJ stans love. Yet we constantly hear how MJ had no help on offense and how awesome the Jazz roster was. An objective reading of the facts tells you Malone was the one getting no "help" and this is abject performance from key players in a finals--players who MJ stans praise (Stockton) or defend (Hornacek). Meanwhile the guys scoring 20+ as 2nd options for Jordan's teams get zero credit. #Agenda


But if you want to take a shot at Hornacek/Stockton, then it's funny how they're good defenders

They are known for their offense, not their defense (although prime Stockton was a solid defender). Where was the offense on the finals stage?

Here are the raw scoring totals for the top 5 scoring "cast members", not factoring in injuries:

Chicago

Pippen 16
Kukoc 15
Harper 5
Longley 5
Kerr 4

Jordan 164 shots.

Utah

Hornacek 11 (-9% TS from RS)
Stockton 10 (-9% TS from RS)
Russell 9
Anderson 7
Eisley 5

Malone 119 shots.

The Bulls' cast is outscoring the Jazz's and that doesn't factor in how scoring shifted in the final 1/3 of the series after Pippen's injuries. In total, the Jazz "cast" scored 55 PPG; the Bull's "cast" scored 65 PPG--despite MJ taking 8 more shots a game than Malone did. Yet we hear non-stop how Jordan had no help. Unbelievable. The Jordan mythology never ceases to amaze.

All this ignores defense. The story of the series was defense and Jordan was the fourth option on defense. Pippen was dominating on defense in a linebacker/free safety type role and was front-runner for FMVP due to that before he got hurt. Harper held Stockton in check. Rodman covered Malone, although did not hamper him the way he did the previous year. "No help", doe!

[Roundball_Rock]

To hammer this home, look at the scoring from the #2 and #3 options for each team game-by-game. I'll also include the shots taken by the #1 option to illustrate how many shots were left for the rest of the team.

Game 1: Pippen 21, Kukoc 9 (MJ 29 FGA); Hornacek 4, Stockton 24 (KM 25 FGA)
Game 2: Pippen 21, Kukoc 13 (MJ 33 FGA); Hornacek 20, Stockton 9 (KM 16 FGA)
Game 3: Pippen 10, Kukoc 16 (MJ 14 FGA); Hornacek 6, Stockton 2 (KM 11 FGA)
Game 4: Pippen 28, Kukoc 8 (MJ 27 FGA); Hornacek 8, Stockton 7 (KM 21 FGA)
Game 5: Kukoc 30, Pippen 6 (MJ 26 FGA); Hornacek 9, Stockton 6 (KM 27 FGA)
Game 6: Kukoc 15, Pippen 8 (MJ 35 FGA); Hornacek 17, Stockton 10 (KM 19 FGA)

Yet Jordan didn't have scoring help? In Games 3-5 both Hornacek and Stockton failed to crack double digits. Kukoc outscored Hornacek 54-22 and Stockton 54-15 in those games. This is despite MJ vacuuming up so much of the offense, unlike Malone. That is one of the neat tricks we see from the MJ side: MJ takes all the shots, his fans decades later complain his teammate's didn't score enough conveniently omitting they would score more if MJ didn't take 30 shots (which was proven when MJ retired or got hurt in 86').

These are pathetic numbers from Stockton, a notorious playoff folder, and Hornacek, who failed to show up in either the 97' and 98' finals (Utah needed him to score because Stockton's limited scoring ability and tendency to take only cake shots--which boosted his percentages but hurt the team--precluded him from doing so). Is there any other finals where a #2 and #3 option scored so little? Somehow, though, the narrative from Jordan mythologists is poor MJ had no help. You might want to ask Karl Malone about that...

[HoopsNY]

Unbelievable. Players average 15.7 and 15.2 points, respectively, with one down on injuries from the very get-go while re-aggravating it in game 5 and shooting 41% for the entire series, and that automatically means the supporting cast for Chicago provided a ton of scoring help.

Bear in mind, I didn't say that he "didn't have any help." I asked who would have provided reasonable shooting and scoring.

The result? Isolate games, as you always do, to prove your point. Then let's do that with the 2015 finals that I previously mentioned and see what happens, especially since you insist on relying on the team's 2nd or 3rd scoring options. It was typically Curry and Klay/Draymond with one game where Curry was really the second option.

2015 Finals: Game 1

Irving: 23 pts on 10-22 (46%)
Thompson: 21 points on 5-14 (36%)

Mozgov: 16 points on 5-10 (50%)
Green: 12 points on 4-13 (31%)

Game 2:

Mozgov: 17 points on 5-8 (63%)
Curry: 19 points on 5-23 (22%)

J.R. Smith: 13 points on 5-13 (39%)
Green: 11 points on 2-7 (29%)

Game 3:

Dellavedova: 20 points on 7-17 (41%)
Thompson: 14 points on 6-16 (37%)

Game 4:

Mozgov: 28 points on 9-16 (56%)
(Insert any GS player and Mozgov is still better, including Klay and Draymond)

Game 5:

T. Thompson: 19 on 6-11 (55%)
Green: 16 on 4-9 (44%)

The Warriors' point differential in the 2015 finals: +7.2
The Bulls' point differential in the 1998 finals: +7.8

Now tell me that LeBron had reasonable scoring and shooting options for that series. No one believes that. Just like no one expected a hampered Scottie Pippen to provide excellent shooting or scoring as well as Toni Kukoc, and don't believe that the Bulls' cast provided that..

[3ball]

The Bulls' cast is outscoring the Jazz's





Roundball, you lack character and integrity... blatantly lying.. :facepalm:



Title teams with lowest scoring supporting casts for the overall playoffs

Post-1954 (Shot Clock Era)


10. 1994 Rockets - 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat - 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls - 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat - 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls - 66.7 PPG
5. 1992 Bulls - 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons - 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs - 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls - 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls - 60.8 PPG


98' Bulls had the lowest-scoring cast ever, and you already knew this - so you're an exposed liar and your long diatribes should be ignored (and are)

[Roundball_Rock]

How about the 1997 Finals? That year Stockton was their second leading scorer, not Hornacek, at 14 PPG (imagine if MJ had a second option scoring 14 PPG...).

Game 1: Pippen 27, Kukoc 6 (MJ 27 FGA); Stockton 16, Hornacek 11 (KM 22 FGA)
Game 2: Pippen 10, Kukoc 7 (MJ 20 FGA); Stockton 14, Hornacek 19 (KM 20 FGA)
Game 3: Pippen 27, Kukoc 8 (MJ 22 FGA); Stockton 17, Hornacek 4 (KM 29 FGA)
Game 4: Pippen 16, Kukoc 9 (MJ 27 FGA); Stockton 17, Hornacek 13 (KM 19 FGA)
Game 5: Pippen 17, Kukoc 9 (MJ 27 FGA); Stockton 13, Hornacek 7 (KM 17 FGA)
Game 6: Pippen 23, Kukoc 9 (MJ 35 FGA); Stockton 13, Hornacek 18 (KM 15 FGA)

Bulls' 2nd and 3rd options outscored the Jazz's in Games 1, 3, 5, 6, even with Stockton and Hornacek scoring more than they did in their abysmal 98' showing. This is with MJ consuming a ton more shots than Malone.

One of the Jordan mythologists hobby horse's is playoff efficiency (only for Bulls--they defend or ignore it, depending on the poster, for any non-Bulls :lol ).

Stockton 61% TS (-5% from RS)
Hornacek 52% TS (-8% from RS)

Pippen 54% TS (-1% from RS)
Kukoc 58% TS (+3% from RS)

Stockton's percentages aren't worth the paper they are written on because of his cherry picking but even with that he did his usual PO regression. Hornacek was even worse.


Players average 15.7 and 15.2 points

Which is a lot more than 10.7 and 9.7. :lol


I didn't say that he "didn't have any help." I asked who would have provided reasonable shooting and scoring.

Healthy Pippen and then Kukoc. Who would on the Jazz? No one. This is absurd. The Bulls' #2 option--on very high efficiency--was outscoring the Jazz's #2 and #3 combined yet we are hearing there was no scoring help.


Then let's do that with the 2015 finals that I previously mentioned and see what happens

I don't care about the 2015 finals--I am tired of Jordan mythology. MJ, as usual, gets great help and the narrative spun by Jordan mythogolists is the exact opposite.

[HoopsNY]

It's wrong to say that Mj had "zero help" that series. That isn't exactly the case. But it's also wrong, at least offensively, to act like he had the world of support.

No one believes that he did. And if you're going to tell me that he did have excellent support, then LeBron's 2015 finals loss shouldn't be excused. When you cherry pick situations and individual games, then clearly the Cavs had #2 scoring options that were outscoring or outshooting Golden State's #2 and sometimes #3 option.

And quit blaming MJ stans. This is more or less the consensus view. Round ball is acting like this is some far fetched opinion. It's the majority, if not consensus view, of viewers from that era. This isn't about propping up MJ, this is just about how things were/are viewed. And at that time, Dennis Rodman had torn ligaments in his hand, Pippen had a back injury (game 7 of the ECF) that was re-aggravated in game 5 of the finals.

The obvious result was to have MJ take over games. LeBron shot MORE than MJ did in the 2015 finals. Who could blame him? So what if Mozgov was having a career finals performance? The expectation was that LeBron would do everything he could to win that series, and he did. Good for him. Now why should he be criticized for it? And why should MJ be criticized for it as well?

[HoopsNY]

I don't care about the 2015 finals--I am tired of Jordan mythology.

Of course you don't. Because you can't respond to it. This isn't about mythology. Go ahead and tell me that LeBron had excellent offensive support in the 2015 finals.

And i don't even believe in the methodology you employ of comparing option to option in order to do this. But using YOUR methodology, you would have to say that LeBron had amazing help in that series.

[ELITEpower23]

Roundball, you lack character and integrity... blatantly lying.. :facepalm:



Title teams with lowest scoring supporting casts for the overall playoffs

Post-1954 (Shot Clock Era)


10. 1994 Rockets - 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat - 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls - 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat - 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls - 66.7 PPG
5. 1992 Bulls - 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons - 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs - 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls - 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls - 60.8 PPG


98' Bulls had the lowest-scoring cast ever, and you already knew this - so you're an exposed liar and your long diatribes should be ignored (and are)

Yoi're dumb. Do % of shots taken. I sure you will find MJ scores 35% of shots because he TAKES 35% of shots. You arent too bright.

[3ball]

bulls cast outscored the jazz


..


Roundball, you're blatantly lying



Title teams with lowest scoring supporting casts for the overall playoffs

Post-1954 (Shot Clock Era)


10. 1994 Rockets - 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat - 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls - 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat - 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls - 66.7 PPG
5. 1992 Bulls - 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons - 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs - 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls - 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls - 60.8 PPG


98' Bulls had the lowest-scoring cast ever, and you already knew this

[HoopsNY]

They are known for their offense, not their defense (although prime Stockton was a solid defender). Where was the offense on the finals stage?

That's not the premise of the OP. The OP clearly took aim at Jordan supposedly being defended by two "slouches" (despite one of them being one of the greatest defensive point guards ever).

That combination shut down Van Exel, Bryant, Jones, and Fisher. And three of those four players were all-stars that year. So which one is it? Are they terrible defenders or not? And how come they suddenly switched to being bad defenders in the finals?

Here are the numbers against Clyde Drexler and Matt Maloney in the 1st round of the WC playoffs.

Drexler: 15.0 points on 31%
Maloney: 6.6 points on 33%

Their regular season averages?

Drexler: 18.4 points on 43%
Maloney: 8.6 points on 41%

So what happened? The bad defenders suddenly became good defenders? Both Drexler and Maloney saw a considerable drop in scoring and shooting being guarded by shoe salesmen and plumbers? Give me a break.

[3ball]

.
1998 Finals

jazz cast.... 55.2 ppg
bulls cast... 54.5 ppg


anymore long essay lies Roundball?

[tpols]

you have to be a real idiot to link a pic of gary payton as a diss to defense faced.

[tpols]

.
1998 Finals

jazz cast.... 55.2 ppg
bulls cast... 54.5 ppg


anymore long essay lies Roundball?

he lies so much with stats, it's impossible to even read his posts. mark twain would be shaking his head.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/2XskdWz9y363OIIeLPq/source.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes, the Bulls had no scoring help in the finals! The team whose second and third options scored 20 PPG combined had the real help!

Let's use the top 5 scorers for the PO--but we can parse it many different ways. The finals numbers speak for themselves. Stockton scored in the single digits (needs to round up to get to 10).

1998 Jazz Top 5 "Cast" Playoff Scorers

Stockton 11.1
Russell 11.0
Hornacek 10.9
Anderson 6.7
Eisley 5.6

1998 Bulls Top 5 "Cast" Playoff Scorers

Pippen 16.8
Kukoc 13.1
Longley 7.9
Harper 6.7
Rodman/Kerr 4.9

The totals for the Jazz players is 45.3; for the Bulls it is 49.4.

In the finals the entire Bulls "cast" scored 54.5, the Jazz "cast" 55.2. So a wash, driven by an injury to the top scoring "cast" member in the series.

Jordan has a lot of help any way you slice it, even with MJ vacuuming up so many shots (it is laughable to see the faux complaints about teammate scoring when MJ took all the shots--simple mathematics). All this doesn't even get to defense where the Bulls' defense (where MJ himself was in the "supporting cast")>>>>the Jazz defense.


It's wrong to say that Mj had "zero help" that series. That isn't exactly the case. But it's also wrong, at least offensively, to act like he had the world of support.

He was getting 21 PPG from his second option--the other team less from their second and third options combined and his fans are whining about a lack of support. Unbelievable.


if you're going to tell me that he did have excellent support, then LeBron's 2015 finals loss shouldn't be excused

When you cherry pick situations and individual games, then clearly the Cavs had #2 scoring options that were outscoring or outshooting Golden State's #2 and sometimes #3 option.


Like I said, I don't care about the 15' finals. I haven't looked at the numbers nor did I read your post.


And quit blaming MJ stans. This is more or less the consensus view. Round ball is acting like this is some far fetched opinion. It's the majority, if not consensus view, of viewers from that era.

Maybe--just like the "consensus" that Pippen didn't play Game 7 in the 90' ECF. Jordan mythologists march all over the internet and are relentless. Inevitably, some of the myths will push through. There simply aren't enough people from that era to fact check every MJ stan lie--which MJ stans are well aware of.


Yoi're dumb. Do % of shots taken. I sure you will find MJ scores 35% of shots because he TAKES 35% of shots. You arent too bright.

MJ takes all the shots yet his stans complain about teammate scoring. The splits w/without MJ speak for themselves.

[HylianNightmare]

Cue pictures of Jason Terry and jj barea

And At least mj won :facepalm

Too easy

[3ball]

.
1998 Finals

jazz cast.... 55.2 ppg
bulls cast... 54.5 ppg


btw, notice how kukoc wasn't reduced to spot up shooter, so he had the capacity to step up with pippen wetting the bed as usual .. otoh, Bosh couldn't step up for Wade in the 14' Finals because he'd been reduced to spot-up shooter

[Roundball_Rock]

You simply cherry pick the highest scoring players in a given game. I went game-by-game for the 2nd and 3rd options for both teams in both series. That was an "apples to apples" comparison so people could track them game-by-game--and it isn't pretty for the Jazz...

In the 2015 finals the Cavs' top cast scorers were 14, 11.5, 10, 7.5, 6.5. For the Warriors it was 16.3 (if we count Iggy in the cast as FMVP), Klay 15.8, Green 13.0, Barnes 8.8, 5.2. I am not even going to bother adding them up.

As noted earlier, Jordan mythologists only care about playoff efficiency for Bulls. Yeah, JR Smith can score 11.5 as a 2nd option--on 31% shooting. Della was 28%, Shump 26%. Only the big men Mozgov and Thompson shot 50+ or above. The Bulls' players were shooting at high efficiency (outside of 2 injured games for one of the two Bulls' key cast scorers in the 12 game sample). We are comparing that to a red hot Kukoc, who stepped into the Pippen void (no one stepped into the Irving void)? :oldlol:

Whenever we peel back the onion we find there is nothing there. If MJ is the GOAT, all these myths and sleights of hand would not be necessary, right? Just post his record and let it speak for himself.

[HoopsNY]

Like I said, I don't care about the 15' finals. I haven't looked at the numbers nor did I read your post.

Then read it and let me know your thoughts. And layoff the MJ stan bullshit man. It's quite tiring.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes, we are supposed to ignore who is pushing these myths because we don't want people to detect the obvious agenda. :lol There are a handful of fellow travelers (oddly often Knicks fans) but it is MJ stans predominating and it is MJ stans who set the tone for fellow travelers to follow and echo.

This isn't rocket science. Obviously MJ fans are the ones who are going to be pushing stuff to make him look better, not Shaq or Robinson or Drexler fans.

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

.



Just post his record and let it speak for himself.




6 rings in 15 years .. aka goat championship frequency of modern era

6/6 in Finals.... aka goat team ceiling

goat production rate

[HoopsNY]

I'll humor you, Hoops. You simply cherry pick the highest scoring players in a given game. I went game-by-game for the 2nd and 3rd options for both teams in both series. That was an "apples to apples" comparison so people could see the changes game-by-game--and it isn't pretty for the Jazz...

In the 2015 finals the Cavs' top cast scorers were 14, 11.5, 10, 7.5, 6.5. For the Warriors it was 16.3 (if we count Iggy in the cast as FMVP), Klay 15.8, Green 13.0, Barnes 8.8, 5.2. I am not even going to bother adding them up.

As noted earlier, Jordan mythologists only care about playoff efficiency for Bulls. Yeah, JR Smith can score 11.5 as a 2nd option--on 31% shooting. Della was 28%, Shump 26%. Only the big men Mozgov and Thompson shot 50+ or above. The Bulls' players were shooting at high efficiency (outside of 2 injured games for one of the two Bulls' key cast scorers in the 12 game sample). We are comparing that to a red hot Kukoc, who stepped into the Pippen void (no one stepped into the Irving void)? :oldlol:

Whenever we peel back the onion we find there is nothing there. If MJ is the GOAT, all these myths and sleights of hand would not be necessary, right? Just post his record and let it speak for himself.

Your arguments are so convoluted and have so much conflation. You jump from one arbitrary set of rules to another all the time.

First we go from the entire series as a whole, where I mention shooting percentages, to -

Cherry picking Pippen's first 4 games and isolating the final 2.
Cherry picking Kukoc's final 2 games, to....

...going back to supporting cast totals (ironically the Bulls had the lowest PPG for a supporting cast in NBA history).

Then you mention I cherry picked the highest scoring players, even though I gave their shooting percentages as well. In addition, I listed games 1-5. Game 6, I believe, is the only game where Golden State's #2 definitively outscores or outshoots Cleveland's #2.

I listed JR Smith once and that was just as a 3rd option. The fact remains is that almost every game, the Cavs' #2 was outscoring and or outshooting the Warrior's. And in some cases, the #3 option was, too.

[Roundball_Rock]

As to the BS about MJ teammate scoring, here is the data on how he deflates teammate scoring. Not theoretical. Not speculation. Real, on the court results. If these players played with Malone or literally any other superstar from that era (since all of them took much less shots than MJ), they would score more via getting more opportunities. It is disingenuous to always hear how little his teammates scored when Jordan was taking 35-40% of the shots.


Bulls' Scoring With/Without MJ in 95'

Pippen without MJ: 21.9*/8.4/5.1 18.7 Gamescore
Pippen with MJ: 19.7/6.9/5.6 16.7 Gamescore

Kukoc without MJ: 16.4/5.5/4.6 14.1 GS
Kukoc with MJ: 13.0/5.3/4.4 11.5 GS

Armstrong without MJ: 14.7/2.3/3.2 10.5 GS
Armstrong with MJ: 11.4/2.1/2.1 9.4

So the Bulls' top 3 scorers went from 53.0 PPG without MJ to 44.1 PPG with him. That is a large decline but with MJ consuming 24 FGA and 33% usage the others will pay a price.

Bulls’ Teammates Scoring With/Without MJ in 86’

Woolridge without MJ: 21.5/4.9/3.4 49.7% FG 15.0 GS
Woolridge with MJ: 15.9/4.9/1.7 49.4% FG 11.2 GS

Gervin without MJ: 17.8/2.9/1.9 47.7% FG 10.5 GS
Gervin with MJ: 11.1/1.9/0.9 46.3% FG 5.6 GS

Green without MJ: 14.8/8.9/2.0 48.9% FG 10.4 GS
Green with MJ: 7.8/5.2/0.9 32.4% 3.8 GS

So his top scoring teammates went from a combined 54.1 PPG to 34.8 PPG with him.

*10th in scoring before MJ returned. For context, Ewing was 6th at 23.9, Barkley 7th at 23.0, Drexler scored 21.8, Penny 20.9, Payton 20.6, Hill 19.9, Miller 19.6, Kemp 18.7 in that same season. All players who MJ stans say were great scorers while Pippen was a "mediocre" scorer.

[Roundball_Rock]

Cherry picking Pippen's first 4 games and isolating the final 2.
Cherry picking Kukoc's final 2 games, to....

Cherry picking? Let's rewind:

Game 1: Pippen 21, Kukoc 9 (MJ 29 FGA); Hornacek 4, Stockton 24 (KM 25 FGA)
Game 2: Pippen 21, Kukoc 13 (MJ 33 FGA); Hornacek 20, Stockton 9 (KM 16 FGA)
Game 3: Pippen 10, Kukoc 16 (MJ 14 FGA); Hornacek 6, Stockton 2 (KM 11 FGA)
Game 4: Pippen 28, Kukoc 8 (MJ 27 FGA); Hornacek 8, Stockton 7 (KM 21 FGA)
Game 5: Kukoc 30, Pippen 6 (MJ 26 FGA); Hornacek 9, Stockton 6 (KM 27 FGA)
Game 6: Kukoc 15, Pippen 8 (MJ 35 FGA); Hornacek 17, Stockton 10 (KM 19 FGA)

The Pippen numbers are in there. You are right--I shouldn't have even counted him as the third option for Game 6. :lol Anyway, if you put Harper the number is the same (8 points).


First we go from the entire series as a whole, where I mention shooting percentages, to -

Cherry picking Pippen's first 4 games and isolating the final 2.
Cherry picking Kukoc's final 2 games, to....

...going back to supporting cast totals (ironically the Bulls had the lowest PPG for a supporting cast in NBA history).

Don't be upset Jordan mythologists put forward terrible, factually challenged arguments with holes so large you can drive trucks through. You can parse the BS 100 different ways and it will show the same result (shall we post RS numbers too? Go back to 97'? On and on). You did it right there: complaining about the "lowest PPG for a cast" while ignoring the opposing team's number (the same, except Malone took 8 less shots than MJ). As if that isn't relevant. :lol The myth has to be preserved: MJ did it with no help, even though it has been exposed in this thread.

Space Jam was a movie, it isn't the NBA. Kukoc stepped into the Pippen void. That happened. There is footage of it. We can't ignore the Bulls got 23 PPG from him in those games on high efficiency. Pippen's numbers post-injury don't tell us how he did in the first four games while healthy (FMVP front-runner then). He was a decoy in Game 6. His scoring isn't even relevant for that game. The Jordan mythology is pathetic: relying on the smoke and mirrors of injuries to obscure 21 PPG from the 2nd option. 15.7 PPG sounds a lot better. Except it was 10.7 and 9.7 for the other team, including the great Stockton who Jordan fans always say MJ would have won a zillion chips with.

Jordan mythologists can't find real examples of no help. As MJ stans themselves recently admitted, the Bulls were stacked.

[HoopsNY]

I'll humor you, Hoops. You simply cherry pick the highest scoring players in a given game. I went game-by-game for the 2nd and 3rd options for both teams in both series. That was an "apples to apples" comparison so people could see the changes game-by-game--and it isn't pretty for the Jazz...

I think I missed your intent with this one. If you mean that you used the "actual" 2nd and 3rd options for both teams, then that comparison wouldn't be able to be done with Cleveland since Kyrie missed games 2-6 and Kevin Love didn't even play.

The point still stands though, the guys who filled their shoes, as starters, were 2nd and 3rd options who outscored their opposing team's 2nd or 3rd options. Now again, tell me LeBron had the world of help, especially when the point differentials were almost identical.

[3ball]

As to the BS about MJ teammate scoring, here is the data on how he deflates teammate scoring. Not theoretical. Not speculation. Real, on the court results. If these players played with Malone or literally any other superstar from that era (since all of them took much less shots than MJ), they would score more via getting more opportunities. It is disingenuous to always hear how little his teammates scored when Jordan was taking 35-40% of the shots.


Bulls' Scoring With/Without MJ in 95'

Pippen without MJ: 21.9*/8.4/5.1 18.7 Gamescore
Pippen with MJ: 19.7/6.9/5.6 16.7 Gamescore

Kukoc without MJ: 16.4/5.5/4.6 14.1 GS
Kukoc with MJ: 13.0/5.3/4.4 11.5 GS

Armstrong without MJ: 14.7/2.3/3.2 10.5 GS
Armstrong with MJ: 11.4/2.1/2.1 9.4

So the Bulls' top 3 scorers went from 53.0 PPG without MJ to 44.1 PPG with him. That is a large decline but with MJ consuming 24 FGA and 33% usage the others will pay a price.

Bulls’ Teammates Scoring With/Without MJ in 86’

Woolridge without MJ: 21.5/4.9/3.4 49.7% FG 15.0 GS
Woolridge with MJ: 15.9/4.9/1.7 49.4% FG 11.2 GS

Gervin without MJ: 17.8/2.9/1.9 47.7% FG 10.5 GS
Gervin with MJ: 11.1/1.9/0.9 46.3% FG 5.6 GS

Green without MJ: 14.8/8.9/2.0 48.9% FG 10.4 GS
Green with MJ: 7.8/5.2/0.9 32.4% 3.8 GS

So his top scoring teammates went from a combined 54.1 PPG to 34.8 PPG with him.

*10th in scoring before MJ returned. For context, Ewing was 6th at 23.9, Barkley 7th at 23.0, Drexler scored 21.8, Penny 20.9, Payton 20.6, Hill 19.9, Miller 19.6, Kemp 18.7 in that same season. All players who MJ stans say were great scorers while Pippen was a "mediocre" scorer.

^^^ woolridge averaged 22.9 alongside Jordan in 85', when he had a full season

pippen barely fell off at all despite the fragmented 95' season, and achieved his biggest raw production alongside Jordan in 1992 (21.0 and 7.0 apg)

teammates always played within 1-3 points of their career high alongside Jordan... that's amazing given Jordan's goat scoring output.. it's a testament to the optimal nature of his game

[HoopsNY]

Space Jam was a movie, it isn't the NBA. Kukoc stepped into the Pippen void. That happened. There is footage of it. We can't ignore the Bulls got 23 PPG from him in those games on high efficiency. Pippen's numbers post-injury don't tell us how he did in the first four games while healthy (FMVP front-runner then). He was a decoy in Game 6. His scoring isn't even relevant for that game. The Jordan mythology is pathetic: relying on the smoke and mirrors of injuries to obscure 21 PPG from the 2nd option. 15.7 PPG sounds a lot better.

Great, isolate 4 games and 2 games, respectively. Now go and look at games 1-5 for Cleveland where players had to step up in the absence of Kyrie and Kevin Love. This isn't mythology, this is your extreme hatred for Jordan where you sit and try to itemize every detail in order to attack him.

Were the #2 options in those games stepping up or not? Were they outscoring and outshooting GS' 2nd and sometimes 3rd options, or not? And these examples are very fair given the point differential of both series, +7.8 and +7.2 for the winning teams. They're very similar.

And I'm not even saying that you're entirely incorrect. I do think that Jordan did have help, but to put the burden of scoring on an injured Pippen or a player like Kukoc would not have yielded the same results, period.

[HoopsNY]

Round ball is the only poster on ISH that creates his own arbitrary parameters, then complains when you do the same. He'll even be upset when you use HIS methodology.

I wasn't the one comparing "apples to apples" 2nd and 3rd options. But when I did, I'm blasted for it because it doesn't fit the 4 games for Pippen and 2 games for Kukoc identical litmus test.

Or maybe it's because Cleveland's 2nd and 3rd options weren't Mozgov and Smith/Thompson/Dellavedova. But maybe you can't accurately insert the #2 and #3 options because they weren't there? (Love and Irving)

But magically Round ball can insert Kukoc as the #2 option in the injury to Pippen? Arbitrary rules at its finest.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think I missed your intent with this one. If you mean that you used the "actual" 2nd and 3rd options for both teams, then that comparison wouldn't be able to be done with Cleveland since Kyrie missed games 2-6 and Kevin Love didn't even play.


But maybe you can't accurately insert the #2 and #3 options because they weren't there? (Love and Irving)

This isn't rocket science for any good faith analysis (versus an agenda driven analysis). You use the guys who filled those roles. Smith obviously was one but the next guy is unclear. Mozgov, Thompson, Dellavedova all took around 50 shots in the series. Usage, scoring says Mozgov so let's use him (except Game 5 where he was hurt--TT instead) and Smith.


The point still stands though, the guys who filled their shoes, as starters, were 2nd and 3rd options who outscored their opposing team's 2nd or 3rd options.

Let's see. Game by game is better since the series is on a per game basis. We can look at totals too but that can obscure trends based on a big or bad game in the small sample. Iggy was FMVP but Curry was the 1st option. Let's slot him in along with Klay.

Game 2: Smith 13, Mozgov 17; Thompson 34, Iggy 7
Game 3: Smith 10, Mozgov 6; Thompson 14, Iggy 15
Game 4: Smith 4, Mozgov 28; Thompson 9, Iggy 22
Game 5: Smith 14, T. Thompson 19; Klay 12, Iggy 14
Game 6: Smith 19, Mozgov 17; Klay 5, Iggy 25

These scoring totals are comparable--the problem is the piss poor efficiency Smith and the other perimeter players needed to get there. Are you seriously comparing this to Kukoc shooting 56% TS or Pippen 54% TS in games 1-4 (the cut-off is relevant since that is where the Bulls won 3 of their games--with a hobbled Pippen both games came down to last second shots).

These are series with key injuries. To get a better grasp of "cast" help we need a normal series. I posted the 97' numbers for the Bulls/Jazz--even with Kukoc playing a small volume role Pippen/Kukoc>Stockton/Hornacek.


Were the #2 options in those games stepping up or not?

Smith was the 2nd option. Here are his logs for games 2-6:

G2: 13 points on 13 shots
G3: 10 points on 9 shots
G4: 4 points on 12 shots
G5: 14 points on 15 shots
G6: 19 points on 15 shots

This is "stepping up"? Mozgov did but Smith did not. What is the big reveal here? The Mozgov had a few good games. And? We knew that.


I do think that Jordan did have help, but to put the burden of scoring on an injured Pippen or a player like Kukoc would not have yielded the same results, period.

Kukoc scored 30 the previous game--why didn't he get the ball much in Game 6? Why did he have the series winning shot intercepted by his own teammate? No need for a Game 6 with an injured Pippen if Kukoc makes the shot. Instead MJ steals it and misses.


But magically Round ball can insert Kukoc as the #2 option in the injury to Pippen? Arbitrary rules at its finest.

Nope--consistency. I did the same here with TT for Mozgov. These aren't "arbitrary." I didn't pull TT or Kukoc out of a hat. :facepalm


He'll even be upset when you use HIS methodology.

This is a lie. My methodology was different, as shown at the outset of this post.

Have we seen a single comment about the terrible scoring of Hornacek, Stockton? So we have all this pearl clutching about scoring--not one word about them scoring 10.7 and 9.7? You know why. :oldlol:

[Vino24]

.


6 rings in 15 years .. aka goat championship frequency of modern era

6/6 in Finals.... aka goat team ceiling

goat production rate
11 chips in 13 years is more impressive when you take into account competition

[Roundball_Rock]

You are driving to a conclusion: MJ got little help and for whatever reason use the 2015 finals as a comp (even though, according to you, it is a poor comp due to injuries). Yet...

*Not one word from Jordan mythologists about the Jazz's "cast" scoring, particularly the #2 and #3 options. They won't even have a pretense about addressing it. MJ, MJ, MJ. Give Malone 16 and 15 PPG from his 2nd and 3rd options and he would happily take it to the championship bank (well, if they played with KM those 16 and 15 PPG numbers would rise...). We hear about 15.7, 15.2 all the time. Can you imagine if they ever went 10.7, 9.7 like Hornacek and Stockton?
*We can't look at Chicago's second option scoring because 21 PPG isn't as convenient as 15.7 PPG (15.7 is a magic number--they won't even round it :oldlol: ). We are supposed to assume a guy who was a decoy was the 2nd option for Game 6 for agenda purposes, not count the actual 2nd option. This is nonsensical on its face.
*Comparing the 2nd/3rd CHI options to the UTA options was devastating so we have the 2015 Cavs brought in--except the highest scorers for each game are cherry picked, not the actual #2 and #3 options (Smith, Mozgov for 4 games and Smith/T. Thompson for 1 with Mozgov injured). So we don't even get a legitimate comparison. Bison Dele scored 17 in one of the finals games for the Bulls. Does that mean anything to anyone?
*Finally, whenever MJ and LeBron are compared we are told (correctly for once) that MJ was the superior defender. Not one word is ever uttered by these people about defensive "help" (MJ did a great job in the defensive cast himself--he guarded Hornacek).

All this to dig out of a self-created hole: pushing the myth that MJ didn't have help.


11 chips in 13 years is more impressive when you take into account competition

11 of 12 when healthy--one loss was because Russell got hurt in the finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

What is the big MJ dispute here?

*Even the pro-MJ accounting shows the Bulls' 2nd/3rd options scored 30.9--more than the Jazz's 20.4. That is 51% more than the Hornacek/Stockton--even with Pippen injured for the end of the series.
*Even if we use just Pippen, 15.7 is 47% more than Hornacek's 10.7.
*If we count Pippen as the 2nd option for Game 5 (arguable--it is laughable to do so for Game 6) and Kukoc for Game 6, that is 16.8. Again, for more than 10.7.
*The 2nd option stuff doesn't change the combined Pippen/Kukoc scoring crushed Hornacek/Stockton.
*Outside of the two key scoring "sidekicks", both teams' total "casts" scored about 55 PPG. This is favorable to the Bulls since they did it with MJ consuming far more shots than Malone did.
*Pippen, Kukoc showed up for the finals; Stockton and Hornacek didn't.

All this obfuscation to peddle the fiction that MJ won with no help?

[HoopsNY]

This isn't rocket science for any good faith analysis (versus an agenda driven analysis). You use the guys who filled those roles. Smith obviously was one but the next guy is unclear. Mozgov, Thompson, Dellavedova all took around 50 shots in the series. Usage, scoring says Mozgov so let's use him (except Game 5 where he was hurt--TT instead) and Smith.

Another post filled with ignoring the response (typical) and an insertion of *new* arbitrary rules. There's no debating with you simply because you can't remain consistent or address what someone else is actually arguing. You want to define rules and foundations as per YOUR understanding and agenda, while disregarding what everyone else says. Then when they define their own rules, or even parallel it with your own - you shoot them down for it and claim they have an agenda.

You could save yourself the trouble of typing such long written responses by just simply saying, "I have no my own set of rules. I don't really care what you have to say."

I, too, created an arbitrary set of rules - to which obviously show that those who filled that role in the void of Kyrie and Love for any given game, outscored or outshot GS's number 2 option. In some cases, this happened with the #3. But you want to redefine it as per what YOU want to prove, in this case, claiming JR Smith is the 2nd option (probably because he took the most FG attempts?), despite the fact that he wasn't even a starter.

What's sad is that you can't even admit in the scenario that I presented, that this is in fact the case. And the best part about all of this is that I'm not even disagreeing with the premise that Jordan had help. But I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say this was some kind of monumental offensive effort by his supporting cast. And I certainly do believe Jordan was justified in taking 27 attempts per game.

Was LeBron justified in taking nearly 33 attempts per game, which was one of the highest of all-time? He certainly was. And no amount of Mozgov putting up great numbers or anyone else for that matter changes that. LeBron did what he had to do to give his team the best chance of winning. That's what superstars do.

Similarly, no amount of Kukoc scoring in any particular game changes the fact that the most effective way to win a title would be to have MJ shoot as much as he did. And with high volume, his fg% was near 43%. LeBron's was 40%. To some posters on this forum, they can't reconcile the fact that percentages decline as volume goes up.

[HoopsNY]

Here is the ironic part about it. JR Smith, (at least in Roundball's eyes), is automatically anointed a solidified #2 option, and a #2 option can never change. That is permanent once you enter it! Okay cool. Let's use the same 5 games that I previously used.

Game 1:

Kyrie: 10-22 FGA, 23 points
Smith: 3-13 FGA, 9 points

Game 2:

Smith: 5-13, 13 points
Mozgov: 5-8, 17 points

But here's the thing with Game 2, Mozgov had 12 free throw attempts while Smith had just 2. So who was being fed the ball more Round ball?

Game 3:

Dellavedova: 7-17 FGA, 20 points
J.R. Smith: 4-9, 10 points

Game 4:

Mozgov: 9-16, 28 points
Smith: 2-12, 4 points

In this game, Mozgov had another 12 fth attempts. As for Smith? 0.

Game 5:

T. Thompson: 6-11 FGA, 19 points
J.R. Smith: 5-15 FGA, 14 points.

In this game, Thompson had 10 fth attempts. Smith? 0. Again, who is being fed the ball more? Who is drawing the fouls. Is it Smith or Thompson?

So who is really the #2 option in games 1-5? Roundball here would have you think a player (of his choice), who is a not a starter, automatically becomes that #2 and defined as THE #2 because HE says so. Then we look at the FGA and FTH attempts and they paint a very different picture. Go figure!

[HoopsNY]

So Smith is magically the solidified, undisputed, irreplaceable #2 option despite not taking the most FGA or being fed the ball more (as evidenced by fth attempts of his teammates). He's the undisputed, solidified, irreplaceable #2 because Roundball says so.

[Soundwave]

Stockton did not guard Jordan. By 98 Byron Russell was the primary defender on Jordan.

The Jazz were a good team, if they weren't there's no way they were beating teams like Shaq's Lakers and Hakeem's Rockets.

[aceman]

Stockton did not guard Jordan. By 98 Byron Russell was the primary defender on Jordan.

The Jazz were a good team, if they weren't there's no way they were beating teams like Shaq's Lakers and Hakeem's Rockets.

Utah were the top offensive team but not particularly strong defensively

[3ball]

Utah were the top offensive team but not particularly strong defensively

their 100.3 drtg in the 98' playoffs is lower than anything lebron faced in the Finals

they completely locked down Duncan/Popovich and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers

[Smoke117]

their 100.3 drtg in the 98' playoffs is lower than anything lebron faced in the Finals

they completely locked down Duncan/Popovich and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers

I thought you left the board? ****ing loser, of course you were never going to...you seek attention like a bitch in heat.

[Shooter]

their 100.3 drtg in the 98' playoffs is lower than anything lebron faced in the Finals

they completely locked down Duncan/Popovich and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers

False.

In 2013 LeBron beat the #6, #1, and #3 defense in a row.

What was MJ's best?

[Marchesk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvv8giVEgG4

John Stocton was very, very good.

[86Celtics]

Another post filled with ignoring the response (typical) and an insertion of *new* arbitrary rules. There's no debating with you simply because you can't remain consistent or address what someone else is actually arguing. You want to define rules and foundations as per YOUR understanding and agenda, while disregarding what everyone else says. Then when they define their own rules, or even parallel it with your own - you shoot them down for it and claim they have an agenda.

You could save yourself the trouble of typing such long written responses by just simply saying, "I have no my own set of rules. I don't really care what you have to say."

I, too, created an arbitrary set of rules - to which obviously show that those who filled that role in the void of Kyrie and Love for any given game, outscored or outshot GS's number 2 option. In some cases, this happened with the #3. But you want to redefine it as per what YOU want to prove, in this case, claiming JR Smith is the 2nd option (probably because he took the most FG attempts?), despite the fact that he wasn't even a starter.

What's sad is that you can't even admit in the scenario that I presented, that this is in fact the case. And the best part about all of this is that I'm not even disagreeing with the premise that Jordan had help. But I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say this was some kind of monumental offensive effort by his supporting cast. And I certainly do believe Jordan was justified in taking 27 attempts per game.

Was LeBron justified in taking nearly 33 attempts per game, which was one of the highest of all-time? He certainly was. And no amount of Mozgov putting up great numbers or anyone else for that matter changes that. LeBron did what he had to do to give his team the best chance of winning. That's what superstars do.

Similarly, no amount of Kukoc scoring in any particular game changes the fact that the most effective way to win a title would be to have MJ shoot as much as he did. And with high volume, his fg% was near 43%. LeBron's was 40%. To some posters on this forum, they can't reconcile the fact that percentages decline as volume goes up.

You are wasting your breath with him, it's like talking to a wall. Like 3ball, he's set in his ways and nothing you say is going to change that. Although it is both ironic and humorous that even though he's crying in every post about "MJ mythologists", at the same time he peddles his own brand of mythology.

Bottom line, the guy is a hater and he can't be reasoned with.

[msbutthurt]

Yes, the GOAT who went 6/6 with 6 FMVP and didn't even know how to allow a game 7 got held to 42% by these amazing defensive players. Can you imagine Lebron trying to do something against these guys if they played today and the rule set was the same as in 98? He'd be held to 30%. MJ barely got 42% on them and this is the GOAT we are talking about. How lucky is it that LeBron managed to avoid having to play against competition like this?

https://i.postimg.cc/hj3c22p6/screen-shot-2015-08-25-at-2-33-24-pm.png


Quality racist post.

Watch how much money the NBA loses this year because of wankers like you. Lower salary cap... less endorsements... less fans watching... brilliant.



P.S. how lucky is Lebron that he could join multiple all-stars to win his only titles. Bosh and Wade were all-stars without Lebron. Kyrie and Love were all-stars without Lebron.

Lebron is so good he needs a team of all-stars to win anything. And mafia refs lol

This message board might as well be BLM racists for Lebron.

[msbutthurt]

False.

In 2013 LeBron beat the #6, #1, and #3 defense in a row.

What was MJ's best?

in 2002 Lebron let Brian Windhorst put his horse **** in his ***hole.

[Roundball_Rock]

So Smith is magically the solidified, undisputed, irreplaceable #2 option despite not taking the most FGA or being fed the ball more (as evidenced by fth attempts of his teammates). He's the undisputed, solidified, irreplaceable #2 because Roundball says so.

Wow, more lying. :lol It is because the data says so--which you know but are too dishonest to admit.

2015 Cavs in the Finals by FGA, Usage

LeBron: 196, 40.8% usage
Smith: 77, 19.0% usage
Delly: 53, 17.4% usage
Mozgov: 49 (injured for almost all of Game 5), 21.4% usage
Thompson: 48, 11.4% usage

Anyone can see Smith and, when healthy, Mozgov were the #2 and #3 options.

Only Jordan could get 16 and 15 PPG from his 2nd/3rd options in a series where their counterparts scored 11/10 PPG and have his mythologists claim he had no help. :lol

While they get attacked for 16 and 15, nothing about Stockton folding in the finals or Hornacek choking two years in a row. Instead we have videos posted about how great Stockton was. The double standard: if Pippen scored 9.7 in a finals we would hear about it 24/7.

[72-10]

Jordan relied more on his fadeaway jump shooting skills than in previous years

when double teams approached him on the wing, he still often tried to make the shot

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan relied more on his fadeaway jump shooting skills than in previous years

when double teams approached him on the wing, he still often tried to make the shot

Good points. It also is a function of small sample sizes. He shot 39% against the Heat in the ECF the previous year, 41% against the Sonics in 96', 40% against the Knicks in 93' before retirement, etc. It happens. He didn't shoot 55% in every single game or series. No one does, not even MJ or KAJ. If you play 82 games against the Jazz he wouldn't shoot 42% but 6 games is a small sample size.

[72-10]

Jordan hit more from the corner in '98 and created more of his offense out of isolation play due to less effective ball movement by his team

[Roundball_Rock]

We always get these scoring numbers in a vacuum. In 1998 the Jazz scored 80 PPG, the Bulls 88 PPG in the finals. Last year Toronto scored 112, the Warrors 106.

Here is how the respective 2nd/3rd options did in each game of both their final's match ups. It shouldn't be necessary...but 2nd/3rd option is defined by their usage, FGA, scoring load, role, etc. (not cherry picking in given games, which is why Bison Dele or Byron Russell aren't listed). 1998 listed first, 1997 listed second.

Game 1: Pippen 21, Kukoc 9 (MJ 29 FGA); Hornacek 4, Stockton 24 (KM 25 FGA)
Game 2: Pippen 21, Kukoc 13 (MJ 33 FGA); Hornacek 20, Stockton 9 (KM 16 FGA)
Game 3: Pippen 10, Kukoc 16 (MJ 14 FGA); Hornacek 6, Stockton 2 (KM 11 FGA)
Game 4: Pippen 28, Kukoc 8 (MJ 27 FGA); Hornacek 8, Stockton 7 (KM 21 FGA)
Game 5: Kukoc 30, Pippen 6 (MJ 26 FGA); Hornacek 9, Stockton 6 (KM 27 FGA)
Game 6: Kukoc 15, Pippen 8 (MJ 35 FGA); Hornacek 17, Stockton 10 (KM 19 FGA)

Game 1: Pippen 27, Kukoc 6 (MJ 27 FGA); Stockton 16, Hornacek 11 (KM 22 FGA)
Game 2: Pippen 10, Kukoc 7 (MJ 20 FGA); Stockton 14, Hornacek 19 (KM 20 FGA)
Game 3: Pippen 27, Kukoc 8 (MJ 22 FGA); Stockton 17, Hornacek 4 (KM 29 FGA)
Game 4: Pippen 16, Kukoc 9 (MJ 27 FGA); Stockton 17, Hornacek 13 (KM 19 FGA)
Game 5: Pippen 17, Kukoc 9 (MJ 27 FGA); Stockton 13, Hornacek 7 (KM 17 FGA)
Game 6: Pippen 23, Kukoc 9 (MJ 35 FGA); Stockton 13, Hornacek 18 (KM 15 FGA)

Malone is the one who should be complaining about not having help...

[Bronbron23]

Exactly. People keep saying that defense isn't allowed but it's more like the skill level of the players in the NBA has seen a dramatic improvement vs. when MJ played.

What you see happening today is the result of the skill of the league being so much higher then it has been in the past.

LeBron just outclasses everyone. He has an actual legitimate shot to score the points ever AND finish in the top 5 in total assists. He make's passes like these all the damn time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgSuxtM8n-g

Man the denial is real. The league itself said they were putting these rules in to free up the offensive perimeter players and that's exactly what it did. This isnt even arguable dude.

[warriorfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvv8giVEgG4

John Stocton was very, very good.

There is a great anecdote of Stockton coming from Gary Payton in his heyday during an interview. They ask Gary who is his toughest matchup. He says with out a doubt John Stockton. He explains how Stockton would be always making the right decision in every situation, and on top of that he would never let up. He explained how it was both mentally and physically exhausting being locked in like that for the entire game. He also said the worst part is that he would feel like he’s doing a great job then he looks up at the scoreboard and he is still busting his ass.

[Roundball_Rock]

The league itself said they were putting these rules in to free up the offensive perimeter players and that's exactly what it did. This isnt even arguable dude.

Agreed. I am not sure why this keeps being contested. The numbers before and after the rules changes speak for themselves. The change was instant. Before the rules changes you could score 24.3 PPG and rank 2nd in the league. Just two years later the same production would place you 12th.

[Bronbron23]

As to the BS about MJ teammate scoring, here is the data on how he deflates teammate scoring. Not theoretical. Not speculation. Real, on the court results. If these players played with Malone or literally any other superstar from that era (since all of them took much less shots than MJ), they would score more via getting more opportunities. It is disingenuous to always hear how little his teammates scored when Jordan was taking 35-40% of the shots.


Bulls' Scoring With/Without MJ in 95'

Pippen without MJ: 21.9*/8.4/5.1 18.7 Gamescore
Pippen with MJ: 19.7/6.9/5.6 16.7 Gamescore

Kukoc without MJ: 16.4/5.5/4.6 14.1 GS
Kukoc with MJ: 13.0/5.3/4.4 11.5 GS

Armstrong without MJ: 14.7/2.3/3.2 10.5 GS
Armstrong with MJ: 11.4/2.1/2.1 9.4

So the Bulls' top 3 scorers went from 53.0 PPG without MJ to 44.1 PPG with him. That is a large decline but with MJ consuming 24 FGA and 33% usage the others will pay a price.

BullsÂ’ Teammates Scoring With/Without MJ in 86Â’

Woolridge without MJ: 21.5/4.9/3.4 49.7% FG 15.0 GS
Woolridge with MJ: 15.9/4.9/1.7 49.4% FG 11.2 GS

Gervin without MJ: 17.8/2.9/1.9 47.7% FG 10.5 GS
Gervin with MJ: 11.1/1.9/0.9 46.3% FG 5.6 GS

Green without MJ: 14.8/8.9/2.0 48.9% FG 10.4 GS
Green with MJ: 7.8/5.2/0.9 32.4% 3.8 GS

So his top scoring teammates went from a combined 54.1 PPG to 34.8 PPG with him.

*10th in scoring before MJ returned. For context, Ewing was 6th at 23.9, Barkley 7th at 23.0, Drexler scored 21.8, Penny 20.9, Payton 20.6, Hill 19.9, Miller 19.6, Kemp 18.7 in that same season. All players who MJ stans say were great scorers while Pippen was a "mediocre" scorer.

Dude this is cherry picking its finest. Out of the 10 plus seasons orlando played his 2 years with mj were some of his best. He scored 23 pts and 21. He only had 2 seasons that was as good or better where he shot 21 and 25 in 1991. As a matter of fact he had his best season ever with mj because thise 23 pts a game were scored way more efficiently.

As far as pip the fact that you highlighted that his scoring barley changed with and witbout mj says it all. Mj could take a shit ton of shots and score alot of points without it messing up the teams offense. Yeah off coure pip and toni are gonna score a couple points less but thats gonna happen. Then you have some guys like kerr who were better with mj.

Shit even with someone like lebron who passes more than mj has this effect. You would think with someone like lebron who is apparently the best passers ever would increase his other top scorers points but it dosnt usually and some of his top scorers had much more dramatic drops in production. Bosh dropped by almost 6 points and love by almost 10. Kyrie on the other hand had his best years with lebron.

Point is when you have players like mj and bron who score as much as they do and demand the ball alot some guys are gonna be negatively effected by this. Some arnt. This is pretty much the case with almost every star and every situation.

[Roundball_Rock]

Dude this is cherry picking its finest.

Cherry picking? These literally are the only years where we have real world data on scoring without MJ and with MJ added to the equation. If it is the only available data for that, how is that "cherry picking"? There are no other cherries.


Yeah off coure pip and toni are gonna score a couple points less but thats gonna happen.

That is the point: MJ takes so many shots everyone's numbers inevitably would go down. If one guy is taking 30-35% of a team's shots, it isn't shocking the other players aren't posting large scoring numbers. So it is misleading for MJ fans to go around comparing teammate scoring numbers at face value.

In total, Pippen/Kukoc/Armstrong decreased from 53 PPG to 44 PPG. That is a 17% decrease. Make of that what you will.


As far as pip the fact that you highlighted that his scoring barley changed with and witbout mj says it all

Pippen without MJ: 21.9*/8.4/5.1 18.7 Gamescore
Pippen with MJ: 19.7/6.9/5.6 16.7 Gamescore

His GS fell 11%, his scoring 10%, his rebounding 18%. His assists increased 10%. Make of it what you will.


Then you have some guys like kerr who were better with mj.

His career high was 1994--and that was with the real NBA 3 point line. In 95', he scored 0.5 PPG more with MJ than without him, though. (In 98' he shot 10% better with Pippen than without him BTW as another comp for superstar impact--don't remember the scoring change.)


Point is when you have players like mj and bron who score as much as they do and demand the ball alot some guys are gonna be negatively effected by this. Some arnt. This is pretty much the case with almost every star and every situation.

Of course. There is only 1 basketball. The differences are 1) volume--no one shot more than MJ outside of Baylor in a much faster pace era 2) the other players' fan bases aren't going around complaining about teammate scoring in the same way. Look at this thread. Whining about 16 PPG, 15 PPG when the other team was getting 11 PPG and 10 PPG.

[Bronbron23]

Cherry picking? These literally are the only years where we have real world data on scoring without MJ and with MJ added to the equation. If it is the only available data for that, how is that "cherry picking"? There are no other cherries to pick.



That is the point: MJ takes so many shots everyone's numbers inevitably would go down. If one guy is taking 30-35% of a team's shots, it isn't shocking the other players aren't posting large scoring numbers. So it is misleading for MJ fans to go around comparing teammate scoring numbers at face value.



Pippen without MJ: 21.9*/8.4/5.1 18.7 Gamescore
Pippen with MJ: 19.7/6.9/5.6 16.7 Gamescore

His GS fell 11%, his scoring 10%. Make of it what you will.



His career high was 1994--and that was with the real NBA 3 point line. In 95', he scored 0.5 PPG more with MJ than without him, though. (In 98' he shot 10% better with Pippen than without him BTW as another comp for superstar impact--don't remember the scoring change.)



The differences are 1) volume--no one shot more than MJ outside of Baylor in a much faster pace era 2) the other players' fan bases aren't going around complaining about teammate scoring in the same way. Look at this thread. Whining about 16 PPG, 15 PPG when the other team was getting 11 PPG and 10 PPG.

It was cherry picking because you chose the numbers that best fit your narrative. The fact is he only played 2 years with mj and out ouf his 15 year career those 2 years were his best and third best years.

As far as his teammates scoring going down yes its inevitable for the most part but that goes for everyone including lebron so im not sure what the point is.

As far as kerr yeah he was a littke better in 93-94 then yhe years after with mj but not by much and when i said better i ment if you look at his career. His best years were wth mj and the bulls.

As far as mjs fan base as an mj fan i admit they can be annoying. So can brons though who also go on about wades production in miami with lebron. My main point is theres literally no difference when it comes to teammates production when you look at the 2. Some players got a little better, some got worse and some stayed about the same.

[Roundball_Rock]

It was cherry picking because you chose the numbers that best fit your narrative.

I picked the only numbers that exist for MJ as MJ (didn't look at Wizards). If it isn't convenient for MJ, oh well. What are you disputing? You agree with my point. It is obvious: when one guy takes 25 or so shots that will deflate scoring for the rest of the team.


As far as his teammates scoring going down yes its inevitable for the most part but that goes for everyone including lebron so im not sure what the point is.

The difference is MJ isn't like random superstars. Let's use Malone as a comp, given the thread. Prime Malone (88'-99') averaged 18.9 FGA, prime MJ (87'-96') averaged 23.8 FGA. That is 26% more than Malone. Any superstar brings down teammate scoring--but no one more than MJ because of his volume. Yet we are supposed to compare Pippen/Kukoc to Stockton/Hornacek without factoring this in? If you swapped teams--Pippen/Kukoc score more with Utah; Stockton/Hornacek score even less with Chicago.


My main point is theres literally no difference when it comes to teammates production when you look at the 2.

I didn't address LeBron here--but I have posted in other threads that he has a problem meshing with other stars and therefore brings their stats' down.


As far as kerr yeah he was a littke better in 93-94 then yhe years after with mj but not by much and when i said better i ment if you look at his career. His best years were wth mj and the bulls.

Was it MJ driving it, though? When Pippen wasn't around he shot 40%; with Pippen he was up to 50%. His career year was 94' with MJ retired--and it would have been even better if the line was shorter like it was in the following years.

Generally, MJ's teammates had their best years away from him. Inconvenient? Maybe, but it is a fact. MJ is easy to do this with because he retired in the middle of his prime. Half the team had career years that year. Two became all-stars, a third player became a MVP candidate and was #1 in all-NBA voting (coincidence 2 of his 3 1st teams were with MJ retired?). Kerr had his best year and rejuvenated his career (Orlando's 12th man in 93'). Myers had his best year. Scott Williams arguably did.

[Bronbron23]

I picked the only numbers that exist for MJ as MJ (didn't look at Wizards). If it isn't convenient for MJ, oh well. What are you disputing? You agree with my point. It is obvious: when one guy takes 25 or so shots that will deflate scoring for the rest of the team.



The difference is MJ isn't like random superstars. Let's use Malone as a comp, given the thread. Prime Malone (88'-99') averaged 18.9 FGA, prime MJ (87'-96') averaged 23.8 FGA. That is 26% more than Malone. Any superstar brings down teammate scoring--but no one more than MJ because of his volume. Yet we are supposed to compare Pippen/Kukoc to Stockton/Hornacek without factoring this in? If you swapped teams--Pippen/Kukoc score more with Utah; Stockton/Hornacek score even less with Chicago.



I didn't address LeBron here--but I have posted in other threads that he has a problem meshing with other stars and therefore brings their stats' down.



Was it MJ driving it, though? When Pippen wasn't around he shot 40%; with Pippen he was up to 50%. His career year was 94' with MJ retired--and it would have been even better if the line was shorter like it was in the following years.

Generally, MJ's teammates had their best years away from him. Inconvenient? Maybe, but it is a fact. MJ is easy to do this with because he retired in the middle of his prime. Half the team had career years that year. Two became all-stars, a third player became a MVP candidate and was #1 in all-NBA voting (coincidence 2 of his 3 1st teams were with MJ retired?). Kerr had his best year and rejuvenated his career (Orlando's 12th man in 93'). Myers had his best year. Scott Williams arguably did.

no you cherry licked Woolridge numbers because he had his best season with mj yet you made it look like he was better without mj when thats not true.

And like i said some do some dont. Horace grant, orlando, pip and kerr barely had any change. Others players did. This is the same with almosr anyone that scores like mj does. Bron like i said and even kd who went into a system that emphasis alot of ball movement impacted stephs scoring who went from 30 to around 25. Mj is no different than anyone else.

Of course if you go from the best or second best scorer to the third or fourth best scorer your scoring is gonna change. Theres only one ball.

[Roundball_Rock]

It isn't cherry picking when you are comparing numbers with and without a player in a given season and those are the only numbers that exist. Woolridge's numbers nose-dived. That happened. If it is inconvenient, too bad. People can always present counter information, like you did, but that doesn't erase the fact of what was posted. It can put it in context, though.


because he had his best season with mj yet you made it look like he was better without mj when thats not true.

Arguably. He did score 25 PPG in Denver. At any rate, what is the relevance to the issue of impact on teammate scoring? Are you now arguing MJ increased teammate scoring? This is a stark decrease:

Woolridge without MJ: 21.5/4.9/3.4 49.7% FG 15.0 GS
Woolridge with MJ: 15.9/4.9/1.7 49.4% FG 11.2 GS

His efficiency was the same (in theory, it should go up with MJ)--it is obvious he just didn't get the ball as much...you pointed to Pippen having a small decline of 10% in scoring. Woolridge's decline isn't 10%.

The best numbers we have of what impact MJ parachuting in and taking 25 shots has is...MJ parachuting in during the same season. We could compare across seasons but MJ stans are usually quick to point to roster turnover as a reason why we can never compare across seasons (except, when convenient, for comparing years MJ was retired to when he wasn't).


And like i said some do some dont. Horace grant, orlando, pip and kerr barely had any change

No individual player is going to increase 10 PPG because none of them were ball hogs. It is a group thing. Grant went up 2 PPG, Pippen 3 PPG, BJ about 2 1/2, etc. This isn't surprising. More volume=more scoring. What is surprising is efficiency also increased. In theory, more volume=more scoring but more volume=less efficiency.


Of course if you go from the best or second best scorer to the third or fourth best scorer your scoring is gonna change. Theres only one ball.

Which was exactly my point. In order to quantify it I pulled the real world numbers. They are what they are. When MJ came back in 95' he took 24 shots a game. That has consequences. MJ taking 24 shots isn't the same as Malone taking 19. MJ will always have low scoring numbers for his teammates because they got less shots than any other "cast" and because that "cast" was built around MJ and Krause prioritized defense. It makes sense. You have MJ to took care of scoring.

[Bronbron23]

It isn't cherry picking when you are comparing numbers with and without a player in a given season and those are the only numbers that exist. Woolridge's numbers nose-dived. That happened. If it is inconvenient, too bad. People can always present counter information, like you did, but that doesn't erase the fact of what was posted. It can put it in context, though.



Arguably. He did score 25 PPG in Denver. At any rate, what is the relevance to the issue of impact on teammate scoring? Are you now arguing MJ increased teammate scoring? This is a stark decrease:

Woolridge without MJ: 21.5/4.9/3.4 49.7% FG 15.0 GS
Woolridge with MJ: 15.9/4.9/1.7 49.4% FG 11.2 GS

His efficiency was the same (in theory, it should go up with MJ)--it is obvious he just didn't get the ball as much...you pointed to Pippen having a small decline of 10% in scoring. Woolridge's decline isn't 10%.

The best numbers we have of what impact MJ parachuting in and taking 25 shots has is...MJ parachuting in during the same season. We could compare across seasons but MJ stans are usually quick to point to roster turnover as a reason why we can never compare across seasons (except, when convenient, for comparing years MJ was retired to when he wasn't).



No individual player is going to increase 10 PPG because none of them were ball hogs. It is a group thing. Grant went up 2 PPG, Pippen 3 PPG, BJ about 2 1/2, etc. This isn't surprising. More volume=more scoring. What is surprising is efficiency also increased. In theory, more volume=more scoring but more volume=less efficiency.



Which was exactly my point. In order to quantify it I pulled the real world numbers. They are what they are. When MJ came back in 95' he took 24 shots a game. That has consequences. MJ taking 24 shots isn't the same as Malone taking 19. MJ will always have low scoring numbers for his teammates because they got less shots than any other "cast" and because that "cast" was built around MJ and Krause prioritized defense. It makes sense. You have MJ to took care of scoring.

No im not arguing that mj increased player scoring im not reall arguing at all im just saying im not sure what the point of it all is when literally everyones production is gonna drop somewhat when they play with a volume scorer. Mj is no different

[Roundball_Rock]

If MJ's "cast" shoots less than any other "cast", why the faux concern about their scoring relative to other casts? It isn't surprising they would be on the low end of "cast scoring."

Anything with MJ turns into a CF since MJ is a sacred cow. Here are the numbers for Magic:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/81-Lakers-without-Magic.png

So Kareem scored more without Magic, Wilkes the same while Nixon, Cooper, Chones scored less without Magic. Note: the "negative" change in defense means the defense improved.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/84-Lakers-without-Magic-1.png

Basically everyone scored more without Magic, Wilkes was the exception here.

So Magic is a mixed bag: 5 players scored more without Magic, 3 scored less, 1 the same in those two years (if a player was on the team both years, counted them twice).

How about others?

Hornacek, Malone's teammate, went from the 2nd option in Philadelphia to the 3rd option in Utah during a mid-season trade in 1994:

Hornacek in Philly: 17/4/6 45.5% FG, 20.5% usage
Hornacek in Utah: 15/3/4 50.9% FG, 19.4% usage

This is what theory tells you would happen: lower scoring on lower volume--but increased efficiency on that lower volume. If we get to comparing across years (like you did with Woolridge), Hornacek in 95' compares well to Philly Hornacek:

Hornacek in Philly 94': 17/4/6 45.5% FG, 20.5% usage
Hornacek in Utah 95': 17/3/5 51.4% FG, 20.6% usage

So his efficiency skyrocketed, as we saw when he was traded. His usage was similar, although his shots went down from 13.5 in Philly to 11.6 in Utah (he made up for it through higher efficiency).

Drexler in Portland 95': 22/6/5 on 42.8% FG, 27.2% usage
Drexler in Houston 95': 21/7/4 on 50.6% FG, 24.2% usage

Like Hornacek, his efficiency skyrocketed which allowed him to score about the same (22.0 in POR, 21.4 in HOU) despite lower volume.

We could keep looking at other examples (I used them as in season trades to teams with a superstar). What is striking about MJ is he depresses volume for his teammates but there is no corresponding efficiency increase, for whatever reason. The best interpretation is efficiency stays the same; a less charitable one is it decreases (it depends on if you compare year-to-year or rolling averages--year to year worse for MJ, rolling averages show the same). The third route is the MJ stan route: which is cherry pick years to cut off the sample wherever convenient for MJ, but that reveals the weakness of their position. They know the totality of the efficiency numbers don't show an increase, with the most favorable interpretation that it is a wash.

[Roundball_Rock]

It comes up with MJ because his volume is notably higher than any other superstar, especially for his era.

Here is what I meant about efficiency for MJ teammates and how parsing it differs.

Pippen 93': 51.0% TS (with MJ)
Pippen 94': 54.4% TS (MJ retired)

Pippen 95': 56.1% TS (sans MJ--he decreased when MJ returned)
Pippen 96': 55.1% TS (MJ returns)

These are bad data sets for MJ. If you blend years, it gets better:

Pippen 91'-93': 54.1% TS
Pippen 94'-95': 55.2% TS (including 17 MJ games)
Pippen 96'-98': 54.8%

Best case, he was about the same with MJ--if you weight 96'-98' over the first threepeat.

Kukoc 95': 57.5% TS
Kukoc 96': 58.9% TS

Kukoc 94'-95': 54.2% (49.7% as a rookie)
Kukoc 96'-98': 55.5%

Kukoc improved but relies on baking in a bad rookie year. He improved in 96', but that was his career high water mark. He didn't come close to that in 97' or 98' so hard to attribute to MJ.

Armstrong 93': 57.0%
Armstrong 94': 54.7%
Armstrong 95': 57.7% (he skyrocketed with MJ to the high 60's in those 17 games)
Armstrong 96': 59.5%

Armstrong 91'-93': 54.7%
Armstrong 94'-95': 56.1%
Armstrong 96'-98': 57.4%

Armstrong can be read in many different ways. My conclusion is he had a trend of steady improvement, but you could point to the 94' decrease and the big increase with MJ in 95' to argue MJ improved his efficiency. The problem is he went to GS and became even more efficient than he was in Chicago.

Grant 93': 53.4%
Grant 94': 54.0%

Grant 91'-93': 57.8%
Grant 94'-96': 56.0%

He had an increase relative to 93', but less easy buckets sans MJ. He shot 59.3% in 95' in Orlando but regressed.

Oakley 88': 54.3% (with MJ)
Oakley 89': 56.0% (in NY)

Oakley 87'-88': 51.5%
Oakley 89'-91': 57.4%
Oakley 89'-90': 56.9%

No way to spin this: he was more efficient away from MJ.

Cartwright 88': 63.9% (in NY)
Cartwright 89': 53.5% (with MJ)

Cartwright 84'-88': 63.0% (he missed 85', played only 2 games in 86')
Cartwright 89'-91': 53.9%

The test opposite case of Oakley: the player going to Chicago. His efficiency nose-dived with MJ.

Longley shot 50.0% TS in Minnesota in 94', was 52.1% in Chicago in 94'. He was 51.3% in 95'. In 96' it was 51.5%. No change. The rolling averages are:

Longley 1993-1995: 50.5%
Longley 1996-1998: 50.1%

Same with or without MJ.

Make of these what you will--I gave you my reads. People can feel free to add other players (Paxson played nearly his entire career with MJ so that is why he isn't here--did not forget about him) using year-to-year and 3 year rolling average comps.

If MJ is going to consume record volume and efficiency doesn't go up in a corresponding way, why would we expect his "cast" to put up big scoring numbers? That is the whole point. MJ's playing style wasn't conducive to teammates' producing in a way Malone, Hakeem were able to absorb other stars and their scoring stayed similar because of the large efficiency increase with them.

[Roundball_Rock]

One other note: the frequent complaint we hear is MJ had to take so many shots because the team lacked offensive capability sans him. The Bulls in 95' were 10th in offensive rating before MJ. In 94' they were 14th overall--but 8th in the games Pippen played. Is that inept offense? You decide. The Nuggets/Blazers are tied for the 9th best offense this year. The Bucks and Jazz are tied for 7th.

The response will be: but the playoffs! The 94' Bulls were 5th in offensive rating of the 16 playoff teams (these are playoff performance numbers, not re-ranking based on RS numbers...). The Rockets were 6th, Jazz 7th, Magic 8th, Pacers 11th, Knicks 13th, Spurs 14th. Of the 8 teams that made it past the first round, the Bulls ranked 2nd behind Phoenix.

[Shooter]

One other note: the frequent complaint we hear is MJ had to take so many shots because the team lacked offensive capability sans him. The Bulls in 95' were 10th in offensive rating before MJ. In 94' they were 14th overall--but 8th in the games Pippen played. Is that inept offense? You decide. The Nuggets/Blazers are tied for the 9th best offense this year. The Bucks and Jazz are tied for 7th.

The response will be: but the playoffs! The 94' Bulls were 5th in offensive rating of the 16 playoff teams (these are playoff performance numbers, not re-ranking based on RS numbers...). The Rockets were 6th, Jazz 7th, Magic 8th, Pacers 11th, Knicks 13th, Spurs 14th. Of the 8 teams that made it past the first round, the Bulls ranked 2nd behind Phoenix.

Bingo. And this is if we are comparing Pippen's offense directly to MJ's as if to say Pippen is a better offensive player than MJ. He isn't better or equal, so we would not expect the exact same offensive results; HOWEVER, to see only a slight drop off is telling. That is the point I think about. Pippen wasn't equal to MJ's offensive abilities, but he wasn't as far off as people like to think.

[HoopsNY]

Wow, more lying. :lol It is because the data says so--which you know but are too dishonest to admit.

2015 Cavs in the Finals by FGA, Usage

LeBron: 196, 40.8% usage
Smith: 77, 19.0% usage
Delly: 53, 17.4% usage
Mozgov: 49 (injured for almost all of Game 5), 21.4% usage
Thompson: 48, 11.4% usage

Anyone can see Smith and, when healthy, Mozgov were the #2 and #3 options.

Only Jordan could get 16 and 15 PPG from his 2nd/3rd options in a series where their counterparts scored 11/10 PPG and have his mythologists claim he had no help. :lol

While they get attacked for 16 and 15, nothing about Stockton folding in the finals or Hornacek choking two years in a row. Instead we have videos posted about how great Stockton was. The double standard: if Pippen scored 9.7 in a finals we would hear about it 24/7.

Another spin on what it is that I said without actually addressing what it is that I said.

[HoopsNY]

Here is the ironic part about it. JR Smith, (at least in Roundball's eyes), is automatically anointed a solidified #2 option, and a #2 option can never change. That is permanent once you enter it! Okay cool. Let's use the same 5 games that I previously used.

Game 1:

Kyrie: 10-22 FGA, 23 points
Smith: 3-13 FGA, 9 points

Game 2:

Smith: 5-13, 13 points
Mozgov: 5-8, 17 points

But here's the thing with Game 2, Mozgov had 12 free throw attempts while Smith had just 2. So who was being fed the ball more Round ball?

Game 3:

Dellavedova: 7-17 FGA, 20 points
J.R. Smith: 4-9, 10 points

Game 4:

Mozgov: 9-16, 28 points
Smith: 2-12, 4 points

In this game, Mozgov had another 12 fth attempts. As for Smith? 0.

Game 5:

T. Thompson: 6-11 FGA, 19 points
J.R. Smith: 5-15 FGA, 14 points.

In this game, Thompson had 10 fth attempts. Smith? 0. Again, who is being fed the ball more? Who is drawing the fouls. Is it Smith or Thompson?

So who is really the #2 option in games 1-5? Roundball here would have you think a player (of his choice), who is a not a starter, automatically becomes that #2 and defined as THE #2 because HE says so. Then we look at the FGA and FTH attempts and they paint a very different picture. Go figure!

No response to this except a usual spin. Roundball wants us to believe that by default, JR Smith was the second option, which is really irrelevant because it is an issue of semantics.

Notice no response to this because he very well knows that if he concedes to this point, then it completely makes his argument about the '98 finals irrelevant.

[HoopsNY]

My point about this is simple. Talking about MJ's FGA and fg% is useless because Pippen was banged up in the finals (due to his back injury in game 7 of the ECF), and then the re-aggravated injury in game 5.

Overall, the shooting numbers of his supporting cast were not good. This is similar to LeBron in 2015, who no one can possibly blame for taking the shots that he did. He did what he was supposed to do.

When you look at each game, Cleveland's second best scorer typically scored more or shot the ball better than Golden State's. Does this mean that LeBron should have shot the ball LESS? Of course not. The same logic should be applied to Mj in the '98 finals.

Jordan shot the ball 25+ times in games 1-4. In games 5 and 6, he averaged 31 attempts. Ironically, this coincides with Pippen's re-aggravated back injury. Again, what was he to do, leave Pippen to do most of the scoring? Was Harper and Kerr going to do it? Or Rodman with torn ligaments in his thumb?

Was LeBron going to expect Mozgov and Smith to carry the load? Or Thompson and Dellavedova? Who cares if they shot the ball well in 1 or 2 games?

[HoopsNY]

It comes up with MJ because his volume is notably higher than any other superstar, especially for his era.

Here is what I meant about efficiency for MJ teammates and how parsing it differs.

This is a classic example of how Roundball uses arbitrary numbers and parsing to suit his agenda. Notice the years he employs. Well, let's look at the growth WITH Mj.

Pippen
1987-88: .489 TS%
1988-89: .524 TS%
1989-90: .528 TS%
1990-91: .561 TS%

Grant
1987-88: .530 TS%
1988-89: .547 TS%
1989-90: .555 TS%
1990-91: .585 TS%
1991-92: .618 TS%

Other guys with/without Mj

Woorlridge

1983-84 (without): .567 TS%
1984-85 (with MJ): .608 TS%
1985-86 (MJ hurt): .560 TS%

Armstrong
1992-93 (with): .570 TS%
1993-94 (without): .547 TS%


Kukoc improved but relies on baking in a bad rookie year. He improved in 96', but that was his career high water mark. He didn't come close to that in 97' or 98' so hard to attribute to MJ.

Isn't that rich. Kukoc's numbers improved with Mj by 1-2 percentage points just like some others declined by similar amounts, but Kukoc's numbers don't count as much, even though Kukoc's TS% declined in 1999 after MJ's leaving. But for some reason we have to hang on to 1-2 percentage points that declined for others. Go figure.


Armstrong 93': 57.0%
Armstrong 94': 54.7%
Armstrong 95': 57.7% (he skyrocketed with MJ to the high 60's in those 17 games)
Armstrong 96': 59.5%

So Armstrong's went down when MJ left, but magically MJ returns in 1995 and his TS% skyrockets as you said? Go figure.

How about Steve Kerr?

1993-94: .572 TS% (No Mj)
1994-95: .635 TS% (games without MJ)
1995-96: .663 TS%
1996-97: .667 TS%
1997-98: .581 TS%
1998-99: .507 TS% (No Mj)

How about Ron Harper?

1994-95: .478 TS% (games without MJ)
1995-96: .528 TS%
1996-97: .543 TS%
1997-98: .503 TS%
1998-99: .451 TS% (without Mj)

***Summary: This sort of analysis is bullshit. It doesn't prove anything.***

[Soundwave]

The Jazz as a team were a good defensive team too especially in the playoffs.

They took the league's no.1 offence (the Lakers) and suffocated them defensively, Lakers went from a 105 Pts/G squad to a paltry 90 Pts/G in the Jazz series.

The Jazz beat Houston (Olajuwon + Barkley + Drexler), San Antonio (DRob + Duncan), and Lakers (Shaq + Eddie Jones + Kobe) en route to playing Chicago again in the Finals, that's not an easy road at all.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bingo. And this is if we are comparing Pippen's offense directly to MJ's as if to say Pippen is a better offensive player than MJ. He isn't better or equal, so we would not expect the exact same offensive results; HOWEVER, to see only a slight drop off is telling. That is the point I think about. Pippen wasn't equal to MJ's offensive abilities, but he wasn't as far off as people like to think.

There was a large decline--but the bigger drop-off actually occurred sans Pippen (the allegedly poor offensive player per the MJ narrative). Sorry, it is a historical fact. We can come up with explanations, etc.--that is fine--but we can't change historical numbers (although, the typical MJ stan response to this is to simply pretend this didn't happen :lol ).

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png

98' Bulls rORTG w/out Pippen: +1
98' Bulls rORTG with Pippen: +6
97' Bulls rORTG with Pippen: +8

94' Bulls rORTG w/out Pippen: +2.2
94' Bulls rORTG with Pippen: -2.6

When MJ retired it was -3 (as the chart shows); when MJ returned it was +3 (from +1.2 to +4.3) in 95'.

This shouldn't be surprising. The facilitator is going to impact teammates more than the guy taking 25+ shots a game. In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break. The Pippen tide lifted other boats--a case of a superstar's presence increasing scoring for teammates (unlike MJ, where there were decreases across the board, with the exception of Kerr rising 0.5 PPG).

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

Pippen appeared to expand the pie so everyone could eat more via a more efficient offense, versus simply taking a large slice for himself.

[aceman]

My point about this is simple. Talking about MJ's FGA and fg% is useless because Pippen was banged up in the finals (due to his back injury in game 7 of the ECF), and then the re-aggravated injury in game 5.

Overall, the shooting numbers of his supporting cast were not good. This is similar to LeBron in 2015, who no one can possibly blame for taking the shots that he did. He did what he was supposed to do.

When you look at each game, Cleveland's second best scorer typically scored more or shot the ball better than Golden State's. Does this mean that LeBron should have shot the ball LESS? Of course not. The same logic should be applied to Mj in the '98 finals.

Jordan shot the ball 25+ times in games 1-4. In games 5 and 6, he averaged 31 attempts. Ironically, this coincides with Pippen's re-aggravated back injury. Again, what was he to do, leave Pippen to do most of the scoring? Was Harper and Kerr going to do it? Or Rodman with torn ligaments in his thumb?

Was LeBron going to expect Mozgov and Smith to carry the load? Or Thompson and Dellavedova? Who cares if they shot the ball well in 1 or 2 games?

If players shot less they shot worse - that was whole point of triangle to get others involved.
Fact Kerr & Longley took only one shot in game 6 is telling - in the triangle with somebody like Jordan who draws double they should be getting open looks

[Roundball_Rock]

If players shot less they shot worse - that was whole point of triangle to get others involved.
Fact Kerr & Longley took only one shot in game 6 is telling - in the triangle with somebody like Jordan who draws double they should be getting open looks

Exactly. Pippen himself said this on the record:


n Jan. 16, for example, when Pippen was asked about Jordan's 64-point explosion in a 128-124 overtime loss that night to the Orlando Magic in Chicago, he just pointed to this stat: Jordan, 49 shots. After Jordan's 54-point gem in Game 4 of the Eastern finals, Pippen said, "Michael had a hot hand, but when that happens, there's a lot of isolation, and it allowed New York to get back into the game. It's not that we don't want him to get his points, but it makes it tough for others to step up when they need to."

https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/06/14/eye-of-the-storm-a-versatile-star-led-the-bulls-to-a-4-2-elimination-of-the-knicks-and-he-wasnt-named-jordan

Game 6 98' finals shot distribution:

Jordan 35
Kukoc 14 (but we are supposed to not count him as the 2nd option per MJ stans)
Pippen 7
Harper 4
Rodman 3
Longley/Burrell/Buechler/Wennington 1
Kerr 0

In other words:

Jordan 35
The rest of the team 29

:lol Why didn't they score more on the crumbs they were given? :mad:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199806140UTA.html

[Roundball_Rock]

Correction to the 98' finals Game 6 table (counted too fast en route to dinner :oldlol: ):

Jordan 35 (55.1% usage)
Rest of the team 32

Kerr, one of the GOAT shooters, plays 24 minutes but gets 0 shots and has a usage of 2.4%. :roll:

Here are the #'s for the Jazz:

Malone 19 (36.2% usage)
Rest of the team 45

Guess which "cast" scored more?

[Bronbron23]

Exactly. Pippen himself said this on the record:



https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/06/14/eye-of-the-storm-a-versatile-star-led-the-bulls-to-a-4-2-elimination-of-the-knicks-and-he-wasnt-named-jordan

Game 6 98' finals shot distribution:

Jordan 35
Kukoc 14 (but we are supposed to not count him as the 2nd option per MJ stans)
Pippen 7
Harper 4
Rodman 3
Longley/Burrell/Buechler/Wennington 1
Kerr 0

In other words:

Jordan 35
The rest of the team 29

:lol Why didn't they score more on the crumbs they were given? :mad:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199806140UTA.html

I still dont know what your point is? That mjs teammates have worse stats when hes leading the team vs when pip or someone on another team is? Does that really matter though? Is the extra point or 2 theyd score with pip or someone else worth more than mjs impact if he was on the floor and pip wasnt there? I mean mj with phil as champs without pip was 32-12 so they seemed to do just fine without pip so its not like they won more with pip and no mj than they did with mj and no pip.

[Roundball_Rock]

Simple: it is misleading to keep complaining about MJ's teammates scoring, as we always see, when A) they got less opportunities than any other "cast"--and B) MJ, unlike other superstars, didn't offset some (or all) of that volume loss with greater efficiency for his teammates. If Steve Kerr is getting 0 shots he isn't going to score. Of course his "cast" isn't going to rank high on scoring given A and B.

As usual, Jordan mythologists get in trouble by exaggerating. Instead of simply praising his ability to score so efficiently on high volume, it has to be exaggerated into MJ doing it all by himself and how his teammates didn't contribute. Hard to contribute without the ball. :oldlol:


I mean mj with phil as champs without pip was 32-12 so they seemed to do just fine without pip so its not like they won more with pip and no mj than they did with mj and no pip.

26-12, not 32-12. We can compare the two scenarios:

1993 Bulls: 57-25
1994 Bulls with Pippen, w/out MJ: 51-21 (58 win pace, 50-20 with healthy Pippen, a 59 win pace)

1997 Bulls: 69-13
1998 Bulls w/out Pippen, with MJ: 26-12 (56 win pace)
1998 Bulls with Pippen: 36-8 (67 win pace)

Spin, explain, etc. all you want but these are cold, hard historical facts. 98' is the same exact team; 94' is the same starters except MJ's spot (Kukoc, Kerr added to the bench). We also have the case of 95'--but after losing Grant that was no longer a championship contender. Jordan helped get them back to the level they had with Pippen/Grant the previous year (a 63 win pace).

Pippen came up as a side discussion along with Magic, Malone, and Hakeem. As always, Pippen is the one who sticks out. Pippen's case was interesting because he played with the same teammates in the same system. He is the only other superstar we have on the Bulls--every other comp involves other teams. Pippen came out the blue taking 16 FGA, 24.4% usage yet teammate scoring increased in several cases (Kukoc, Longley, Kerr, Wennington increased; Jordan, Harper decreased) due to the rising tide. A deeper dive would be needed to confirm this, though, and require separating out the actual Pippen-less games. ASG is quick shorthand.

[Bronbron23]

Simple: it is misleading to keep complaining about MJ's teammates scoring, as we always see, when A) they got less opportunities than any other "cast"--and B) MJ, unlike other superstars, didn't offset some (or all) of that volume loss with greater efficiency for his teammates. If Steve Kerr is getting 0 shots he isn't going to score. Of course his "cast" isn't going to rank high on scoring given A and B.

As usual, Jordan mythologists get in trouble by exaggerating. Instead of simply praising his ability to score so efficiently on high volume, it has to be exaggerated into MJ doing it all by himself and how his teammates didn't contribute. Hard to contribute without the ball. :oldlol:



26-12, not 32-12. We can compare the two scenarios:

1993 Bulls: 57-25
1994 Bulls with Pippen, w/out MJ: 51-21 (58 win pace, 50-20 with healthy Pippen, a 59 win pace)

1997 Bulls: 69-13
1998 Bulls w/out Pippen, with MJ: 26-12 (56 win pace)
1998 Bulls with Pippen: 36-8 (67 win pace)

Spin, explain, etc. all you want but these are cold, hard historical facts. 98' is the same exact team; 94' is the same starters except MJ's spot (Kukoc, Kerr added to the bench). We also have the case of 95'--but after losing Grant that was no longer a championship contender. Jordan helped get them back to the level they had with Pippen/Grant the previous year (a 63 win pace).

Pippen came up as a side discussion along with Magic, Malone, and Hakeem. As always, Pippen is the one who sticks out. Pippen's case was interesting because he played with the same teammates in the same system. He is the only other superstar we have on the Bulls--every other comp involves other teams. Pippen came out the blue taking 16 FGA, 24.4% usage yet teammate scoring increased in several cases (Kukoc, Longley, Kerr, Wennington increased; Jordan, Harper decreased) due to the rising tide. A deeper dive would be needed to confirm this, though, and require separating out the actual Pippen-less games. ASG is quick shorthand.

No its 32-12. I said with phil jackson. I think the 26-12 your referencing may be tbe last season which is still pretty good. That was old ass mj who was almost 35 too so just imagine prime mj. The season your referencing with pip is 93-94 when pip was in his prime.

And i never complained anything about mjs teammates scoring. You keep saying the facts but the facts are that phil is a great coach and it really didn't matter who was leading the team the bulls were gonna win 50 plus games regardless. Question is who would you rather have leading the team come playoff time? A prime mj with no pip or a prime pip with no mj? We never got to see mj with phil but no pip in tbe playoffs in his prime but im pretty sure anyone who isnt a troll or idiot would take mj. I wonder why that is?

[Roundball_Rock]

And i never complained anything about mjs teammates scoring

You didn't--but several before you in this thread did so and we see it on ISH all the time.


That was old ass mj who was almost 35 too so just imagine prime mj. The season your referencing with pip is 93-94 when pip was in his prime.

True--and I have seen this response by some MJ fans on ISH over the years referencing their respective ages. The implication, though, is 28 year old 94' Pippen=98' MJ--who was still the best player in the league and MVP. Not you, but hard to square this with what others say--that basically any all-NBA player ever>Pippen. Yet when it comes to comparing 98' to 94' he, implicitly, was playing at a level that would make him the best player in the league in 98' according to some of the same people. :confusedshrug:


You keep saying the facts but the facts are that phil is a great coach and it really didn't matter who was leading the team the bulls were gonna win 50 plus games regardless.

Agreed.


Question is who would you rather have leading the team come playoff time? A prime mj with no pip or a prime pip with no mj?

The only player I would draft over MJ is Kareem. Pippen may be top 20-30 all-time but the difference between 1st or 2nd and, say, 22nd or 25th is an appreciable difference. His value, though, doesn't foot precisely to the stat sheet since a lot of it is unquantifiable (defense) or indirect (raising efficiency for teammates, the team as a whole, etc. which doesn't show on his BBallreference page). The 15.7 PPG stuff for the 98' finals is a prime example. He absolutely dominated on defense before he got hurt (when the Bulls built a 3-1 lead).

It seems we are on the same page but had some wires crossed earlier.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Rockhead quibbling over Jordan taking extra shots lol. Meanwhile Chicago 3-peated twice and won 6 titles in 8 years. With Jordan winning every scoring title and Finals MVP.

But look @ his FGA!!! :lol

[Bronbron23]

You didn't--but several before you in this thread did so and we see it on ISH all the time.



True--and I have seen this response by some MJ fans on ISH over the years referencing their respective ages. The implication, though, is 28 year old 94' Pippen=98' MJ--who was still the best player in the league and MVP. Not you, but hard to square this with what others say--that basically any all-NBA player ever>Pippen. Yet when it comes to comparing 98' to 94' he, implicitly, was playing at a level that would make him the best player in the league in 98' according to some of the same people. :confusedshrug:



Agreed.



The only player I would draft over MJ is Kareem. Pippen may be top 20-30 all-time but the difference between 1st or 2nd and, say, 22nd or 25th is an appreciable difference. His value, though, doesn't foot precisely to the stat sheet since a lot of it is unquantifiable (defense) or indirect (raising efficiency for teammates, the team as a whole, etc. which doesn't show on his BBallreference page). The 15.7 PPG stuff for the 98' finals is a prime example. He absolutely dominated on defense before he got hurt (when the Bulls built a 3-1 lead).

It seems we are on the same page but had some wires crossed earlier.

I do think comparing 35 year old mj to prime pip is unfair but i definitely dont think every all nba great is better than pip. Im probably one of the few mj fans that think pip was an atg player and that he and phil are just as much responsible for the bulls chips as mj is.

And i wouldn't argue with anyone taking kareem over mj. He has a legit argument for the greatest player ever. I never got to see him play though. Mj to me is the best player ive ever seen but i dont call him the goat because i never saw kareem, magic, wilt or Russell play.

[Roundball_Rock]

I do think comparing 35 year old mj to prime pip is unfair

It isn't a perfect comp but the only time prime Pippen got hurt and missed substantial time with MJ playing was 98'. The other time obviously was 94' (Bulls 87 PPG, -9 differential, 4-6 and -2.6 rORTG in those games BTW) but MJ was retired. He missed 9 games in 89' but that was pre-prime, second year Pippen (FWIW, they went 4-5, so a 36 win pace versus a 48 win pace with Pippen).


i definitely dont think every all nba great is better than pip. Im probably one of the few mj fans that think pip was an atg player and that he and phil are just as much responsible for the bulls chips as mj is.

A breath of fresh air. :cheers:


And i wouldn't argue with anyone taking kareem over mj. He has a legit argument for the greatest player ever. I never got to see him play though. Mj to me is the best player ive ever seen but i dont call him the goat because i never saw kareem, magic, wilt or Russell play.

Prime versus prime they were equal to me (forgot to note that earlier). The tiebreaker is longevity if we are doing an all-time draft.

This is what I don't get with all this MJ stuff. He has an excellent actual record, why the need for all the BS and exaggerations that we see from some others? Just talk about what he did like you and some others like Phoenix do.

[Shooter]

Rockhead quibbling over Jordan taking extra shots lol. Meanwhile Chicago 3-peated twice and won 6 titles in 8 years. With Jordan winning every scoring title and Finals MVP.

But look @ his FGA!!! :lol

You're out of touch. Some MJ fans were claiming that MJ scored a vast percentage of the points, without also realizing this was largely due to him taking a vast percentage of the shots. That was why roundball was highlight his FGA #s.

[Roundball_Rock]

You're out of touch. Some MJ fans were claiming that MJ scored a vast percentage of the points, without also realizing this was largely due to him taking a vast percentage of the shots. That was why roundball was highlight his FGA #s.

He can't process information. It is sad. As you noted, this isn't complicated: they keep invoking teammate scoring which leads to the obvious review of the context of that (e.g., MJ took all the shots)--to which the response is his teammates sucked at scoring so of course MJ had to take all the shots (which leads to review of his teammates' offensive performance sans him). Context not allowed. We have to look at things in a vacuum per most MJ fans to fit the fairy tale mythology. :lol

What's the explanation for Hornacek and Stockton scoring 51% less than Pippen/Kukoc? One of the Bulls even got hurt yet that duo still crushed Stockton/Hornacek? These are guys who get hyped as the great competition MJ faced (Stockton a top 25-30 ATG, prime Hornacek was all-star caliber--but it doesn't matter if you no show the finals). Pippen/Kukoc=bums for scoring 16 and 15; Hornacek/Stockton are heroes and "great comp" for scoring 11 and 10. :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You're out of touch. Some MJ fans were claiming that MJ scored a vast percentage of the points, without also realizing this was largely due to him taking a vast percentage of the shots. That was why roundball was highlight his FGA #s.

You're new and naive.

3ball and the other accounts he posts on don't count. Everyone else realizes Mike scored a ton of Chicago's points, and with a good reason. They won championships doing so.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

MJ took most of the shots! That's why his teammates didn't score as much as he did!

:lol

What's next? His teammates couldn't wear #45 because Jordan already donned it? lol. The amount of time you waste on trivial bullshit is crazy.

[Shooter]

You're new and naive.

3ball and the other accounts he posts on don't count. Everyone else realizes Mike scored a ton of Chicago's points, and with a good reason. They won championships doing so.

Ok fair enough

[Bronbron23]

It isn't a perfect comp but the only time prime Pippen got hurt and missed substantial time with MJ playing was 98'. The other time obviously was 94' (Bulls 87 PPG, -9 differential, 4-6 and -2.6 rORTG in those games BTW) but MJ was retired. He missed 9 games in 89' but that was pre-prime, second year Pippen (FWIW, they went 4-5, so a 36 win pace versus a 48 win pace with Pippen).



A breath of fresh air. :cheers:



Prime versus prime they were equal to me (forgot to note that earlier). The tiebreaker is longevity if we are doing an all-time draft.

This is what I don't get with all this MJ stuff. He has an excellent actual record, why the need for all the BS and exaggerations that we see from some others? Just talk about what he did like you and some others like Phoenix do.

i think the problem is most people on here are stans or emotional fans. Ive never really understood that. I only love 1 man and thats my father. I definitely dont love some guy i dont know. I dont care how good he is at putting a ball through a hoop. I could give 2 shits about mj as a man. Like most people hes pretty flawed as a human being. I just think hes a great basketball player.

Most fans are too blinded by their love to see the truth sometimes. This isnt just with mj either. Every player has these fans although it seems like mj and bron fans are the worst on here anyway.

[Shooter]

i think the problem is most people on here are stans or emotional fans. Ive never really understood that. I only love 1 man and thats my father. I definitely dont love some guy i dont know. I dont care how good he is at putting a ball through a hoop. I could give 2 shits about mj as a man. Like most people hes pretty flawed as a human being. I just think hes a great basketball player.

Most fans are too blinded by their love to see the truth sometimes. This isnt just with mj either. Every player has these fans although it seems like mj and bron fans are the worst on here anyway.

What's your top 5 all time list?

[BigShotBob]

I don't even think Pippen could put up 20-25 shots for more than 2-3 straight playoff games as the number 1 option and average more than 26 points per game because he failed to do that at his absolute peak in 94.

Meaning MJ literally had to do it to win....and he did win. And never lost on the biggest stage. We're gonna nitpick how someone wins on a stage that they never lost on? :roll:

[aceman]

I don't even think Pippen could put up 20-25 shots for more than 2-3 straight playoff games as the number 1 option and average more than 26 points per game because he failed to do that at his absolute peak in 94.

Meaning MJ literally had to do it to win....and he did win. And never lost on the biggest stage. We're gonna nitpick how someone wins on a stage that they never lost on? :roll:

Why not? That's what this board is for.

[Bronbron23]

What's your top 5 all time list?

Mj
Magic
Kobe
Lebron
Bird

Ive never seen prime kareem, russell or wilt play so i camt speak on them. Stats and chips are important but the eye test is the most important and they're the best players ive ever seen. If i was to go by stats, chips and accolades then the list would probably be mj, kareem, magic, bron and russell not necessarily in that order. Kareem could easily be ahead of mj and the other 3 is a crap shoot.

[Gileraracer]

These behemoths held Lebron to 17PPG

https://benkatman.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/jj_1.jpg

They are around 7'12" .... and 75 years .... combined

[Roundball_Rock]

Most fans are too blinded by their love to see the truth sometimes. This isnt just with mj either. Every player has these fans although it seems like mj and bron fans are the worst on here anyway.

True. MJ stans are the ones I interact with the most and their sameness (e.g., they like blaming 3ball while echoing 90% of what he says) and zealousness (all day in every corner of the internet) it is the same thing. Maybe if I interacted with LeBron or Kobe stans I would see them as worse but I don't see them pushing outright myths the way MJ stans do.


Ok fair enough

They like blaming 3ball while echoing 90% of what he says. :lol You'll notice this, outside of Phoenix and bronbron who are reasonable MJ fans. The issue with 3ball is he makes them look bad by saying the quiet part out loud at times but you won't see them disputing his core arguments because they agree with him.

Re MJ, a "bad series" for him would be considered a very good series for Kobe. That is a testament to how great MJ was but we rarely hear this argument. We get BS instead.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ok fair enough

Yup.

If you post here long enough you'll see through the BS and agendas.

What you get here though is Rockball desperately trolling for a talking point. The argument hangs on what-if but WHAT WE KNOW is Jordan's way produced TWO 3-peats. 6 championships in 8 years. Plus every scoring title and Finals MVP.

Only an idiot would counter success with "but FGA!!!" :lol

[Bronbron23]

True. MJ stans are the ones I interact with the most and their sameness (e.g., they like blaming 3ball while echoing 90% of what he says) and zealousness (all day in every corner of the internet) it is the same thing. Maybe if I interacted with LeBron or Kobe stans I would see them as worse but I don't see them pushing outright myths the way MJ stans do.



They like blaming 3ball while echoing 90% of what he says. :lol You'll notice this, outside of Phoenix and bronbron who are reasonable MJ fans. The issue with 3ball is he makes them look bad by saying the quiet part out loud at times but you won't see them disputing his core arguments because they agree with him.

Re MJ, a "bad series" for him would be considered a very good series for Kobe. That is a testament to how great MJ was but we rarely hear this argument. We get BS instead.

They're no different than some of the mj stans. Theres a bunch of them that just troll. If your on here you must see it. Its the 1-9 guys or the mj played against garbage men guys. Some of what they say is straight trolling and some has some factual basis but its disingenuous. Same goes for mj stans with lebron.

[Roundball_Rock]

If your on here you must see it. Its the 1-9 guys or the mj played against garbage men guys. Some of what they say is straight trolling and some has some factual basis but its disingenuous.

I don't go into every thread here but on social media you have to see a thread in your feed as you scroll and I see what you are saying. The "1-9" and "plumbers" BS memes are all over the place on social media, as ubiquitous as the MJ "won by himself", "Pippen sucked", etc. memes are.

One difference seems to be LeBron fans focus on MJ whereas MJ fans obsess over Pippen as well, in addition to LeBron, in a way LeBron fans don't with Wade. I just don't see "Wade sucked" all over the internet each day. Another is MJ fans amusingly defend every 90's star (except Pippen). I don't see LeBron fans going to bat for every star on every other contender like MJ stans bizarrely do.

[HoopsNY]

If players shot less they shot worse - that was whole point of triangle to get others involved.
Fact Kerr & Longley took only one shot in game 6 is telling - in the triangle with somebody like Jordan who draws double they should be getting open looks

This is true if we're talking about viable #2 and #3 options. Longley and Kerr aren't those, sorry. Longley had a 49% TS% and he's a 7'2" center. Kerr shot 35% PRIOR to that game 6 where he took 0 shots.

The reason why people say that Mj HAD to take on that scoring load is because no one has/had faith in his supporting cast beyond Pippen. When the fate of your team rests on the scoring of Luc Longey and Steve Kerr, then you know that you're in trouble.

LeBron took 38% of his team's shots in 2015. Mj took 36% of his team's and saw his FGA increase particularly in games 5 and 6 with Pippen's re-aggravated back. Again, who can blame him? And who could blame LeBron?

[HoopsNY]

You're new and naive.

3ball and the other accounts he posts on don't count. Everyone else realizes Mike scored a ton of Chicago's points, and with a good reason. They won championships doing so.

And that's all I've been saying this entire time. To prove my point, I provided statistics from the 2015 finals that showed, game by game, from games 1-5, how LeBron's 2nd best scorer outscored or outshot Golden States'.

Despite such numbers, LeBron put up nearly 33 FGA per game. And who could blame him? Just because Timofey Mozgov or Dellavedova were putting up decent numbers in select games means what exactly?

Imagine - in the NBA finals - the biggest stage of the year, you rest your fate on the likes of Timofey Mozgov, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Luc Longey, JR Smith, Dellavedova (I don't even remember his first name, how useless he is), etc.

[Bronbron23]

I don't go into every thread here but on social media you have to see a thread in your feed as you scroll and I see what you are saying. The "1-9" and "plumbers" BS memes are all over the place on social media, as ubiquitous as the MJ "won by himself", "Pippen sucked", etc. memes are.

One difference seems to be LeBron fans focus on MJ whereas MJ fans obsess over Pippen as well, in addition to LeBron, in a way LeBron fans don't with Wade. I just don't see "Wade sucked" all over the internet each day. Another is MJ fans amusingly defend every 90's star (except Pippen). I don't see LeBron fans going to bat for every star on every other contender like MJ stans bizarrely do.

Yeah i dont get the pip hate personally. Everyone needs help. It dosnt diminish mj by acknowledging Pippen's value. I do think wade is a whole lot less harder to criticize though. He was already a proven champion and bron went and joined him on his team. What can you really say? Plus wade was tough as hell and when hes on he can score as good as anyone. Pip was never that guy scoring wise and there are some points in his career where you can question his heart and toughness. You cant question wades toughness at any point of his career especially when he was young and in his prime. Saying wade isnt an atg is just dumb though.

As far as feeling the need to defending 90's stars that's dumb but no different than alot of guys on here saying this generation is so much better. I personally dont think theres a better or more skilled its just different now. Theres more emphasis on perimeter play then post and mid so thats where most of the skill is. This generation thinks threes and iso dribbling means more skill and older generation thinks post qnd mid is more skill. Neither is right its just different.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And that's all I've been saying this entire time. To prove my point, I provided statistics from the 2015 finals that showed, game by game, from games 1-5, how LeBron's 2nd best scorer outscored or outshot Golden States'.

Despite such numbers, LeBron put up nearly 33 FGA per game. And who could blame him? Just because Timofey Mozgov or Dellavedova were putting up decent numbers in select games means what exactly?

Imagine - in the NBA finals - the biggest stage of the year, you rest your fate on the likes of Timofey Mozgov, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Luc Longey, JR Smith, Dellavedova (I don't even remember his first name, how useless he is), etc.

And your point is well taken. Nobody should assume that if Mike took LESS shots Chicago would be better off. They won with him taking most of the shots BEFORE he retired and AFTER he came back. What Chicago didn't do, is win in 94 when everyone's production elevated (naturally).

Of course this will get ignored. And you'll be called a "Jordanian" by that goofy hater.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah i dont get the pip hate personally. Everyone needs help. It dosnt diminish mj by acknowledging Pippen's value

Exactly. A lot of it is due to the emphasis on 6 rings since if Pippen wasn't there maybe MJ has 2 like Hakeem. So what? MJ would still be a GOAT candidate like Wilt is. It is a self-created box by focusing on rangz instead of MJ as a player, which requires them to tear down the entire team to make the rangz an individual accomplishment.


I do think wade is a whole lot less harder to criticize though. He was already a proven champion and bron went and joined him on his team. What can you really say?

They just don't care. They are secure about LeBron's teammates. You don't see Kareem fans going around saying Magic sucked or, as was noted in another thread, Bird fans saying McHale sucks. Or Brady fans dissing Gronk. Gretzy fans and Messier. Montana fans and Rice. Go on and on. Only MJ fans have this special insecurity.

Anyone can be criticized. With Wade it would be about the time he was with LeBron which was a lesser version of Wade, not so much what he did in 2006 (particularly that he was always hurt--so he can be as tough as he wants but he kept missing time while Pippen never really did, other than his shenanigans in 98', and being hurt every year reduces your value and reliability to the team). You see it from time to time, e.g., there is a thread about him averaging 15.9 PPG through three rounds in 13'. It just isn't a 24/7 full court press like it is with MJ fans.


As far as feeling the need to defending 90's stars that's dumb but no different than alot of guys on here saying this generation is so much better.

True. What I find funny is the Pippen exception. Like it or not, Pippen is one of the most decorated players of the 90's. So on the one hand the guy with all these accomplishments is a bum, yet the guys who are less decorated in the same era>>>>>>>the more decorated player. It is amusing as it is illogical but here we are.

With LeBron stans they hype the entire era, with no odd exception. Imagine if they went around saying this era is stacked--but Davis is a bum. That would be incongruent given Davis' accolades and standing relative to his era (if a bum can be 1st team all-NBA, for example, that is a huge indictment of an era).


I personally dont think theres a better or more skilled its just different now. Theres more emphasis on perimeter play then post and mid so thats where most of the skill is. This generation thinks threes and iso dribbling means more skill and older generation thinks post qnd mid is more skill. Neither is right its just different.

I can see the argument that the player pool is bigger now, therefore the talent is greater. Defenses are weaker, though. Moreover, superstars are superstars in any era. MJ or LeBron types will dominate in any era. We know this because we saw lesser versions of them in past eras. Kobe was MJ-lite and was a beast as recently as 2013. Pippen, Hill, Havlicek are all versions of LeBron in prior eras.

[Shooter]

I don't go into every thread here but on social media you have to see a thread in your feed as you scroll and I see what you are saying. The "1-9" and "plumbers" BS memes are all over the place on social media, as ubiquitous as the MJ "won by himself", "Pippen sucked", etc. memes are.

One difference seems to be LeBron fans focus on MJ whereas MJ fans obsess over Pippen as well, in addition to LeBron, in a way LeBron fans don't with Wade. I just don't see "Wade sucked" all over the internet each day. Another is MJ fans amusingly defend every 90's star (except Pippen). I don't see LeBron fans going to bat for every star on every other contender like MJ stans bizarrely do.

What. A. Post. BAM

[Roundball_Rock]

Regarding teammates, the driver seems to be LeBron won without Wade. LeBron detractors will then expand the category to Wade and Irving. Even then LeBron has 2 finals trips. Then Love will come up. That makes it Wade, Irving, Love (i.e., the entire 2010's for LeBron outside of 2019). He still has a finals trip without any of those three. So no motivation to be insecure about Wade.

A similar story with the other top 10 ATG's (who in the few cases that didn't win without their best teammate they at least came close, like Magic without Kareem). Not so with MJ/Pippen. That appears to trigger insecurity.

Hyping every 90's star (except Pippen) is bizarre but suggests further insecurity, this time of his era. The funny thing is few people (outside of the "plumbers" and "C-Span anchor Jeff Hornacek" etc. people) say MJ didn't play great players. The argument is he played with a great team against inferior teams (a position MJ stans themselves implicitly share when they talk about the Bulls without MJ! :lol ). Individual accomplishments by Drexler or Payton or Ewing isn't prima facie evidence that their teams were equal to the Bulls but MJ stans tend to act like it is. They can be HOF players and their teams still inferior.

[Shooter]

Regarding teammates, the driver seems to be LeBron won without Wade. LeBron detractors will then expand the category to Wade and Irving. Even then LeBron has 2 finals trips. Then Love will come up. That makes it Wade, Irving, Love (i.e., the entire 2010's for LeBron outside of 2019). He still has a finals trip without any of those three. So no motivation to be insecure about Wade.

A similar story with the other top 10 ATG's (who in the few cases that didn't win without their best teammate they at least came close, like Magic without Kareem). Not so with MJ/Pippen. That appears to trigger insecurity.

Hyping every 90's star (except Pippen) is bizarre but suggests further insecurity, this time of his era. The funny thing is few people (outside of the "plumbers" and "C-Span anchor Jeff Hornacek" etc. people) say MJ didn't play great players. The argument is he played with a great team against inferior teams (a position MJ stans themselves implicitly share when they talk about the Bulls without MJ! :lol ). Individual accomplishments by Drexler or Payton or Ewing isn't prima facie evidence that their teams were equal to the Bulls but MJ stans tend to act like it is. They can be HOF players and their teams still inferior.

Wow :lebronamazed:

[Vino24]

John Stockton

[light]

What MJ said in the 1990s about players in the 1970s now applies to him and his era compared to current players.

Michael Jordan, 1990:

"The players today can do things they couldn't do twenty years ago. Those [old] concepts don't work against bigger, faster players who jump higher."

[And1AllDay]

against a measly 6'2 payton

sheesh pathetic

[outofstomach]

You are wasting your breath with him, it's like talking to a wall. Like 3ball, he's set in his ways and nothing you say is going to change that. Although it is both ironic and humorous that even though he's crying in every post about "MJ mythologists", at the same time he peddles his own brand of mythology.

Bottom line, the guy is a hater and he can't be reasoned with.


definitely noticed this :lol he hides under this guise of objectivity and being “fair” yet his skepticism is just as fervent and illogical as 3ball’s love for Jordan

so paranoid about these supposed “mythologists” who are delusional that his own arguments aren’t even up to snuff because he has to take an anti-MJ slant on every lebron thread shouting his accolades from the roof :lol

[outofstomach]

Rockhead quibbling over Jordan taking extra shots lol. Meanwhile Chicago 3-peated twice and won 6 titles in 8 years. With Jordan winning every scoring title and Finals MVP.

But look @ his FGA!!! :lol:lol

[2much_knowledge]

Yes, the GOAT who went 6/6 with 6 FMVP and didn't even know how to allow a game 7 got held to 42% by these amazing defensive players. Can you imagine Lebron trying to do something against these guys if they played today and the rule set was the same as in 98? He'd be held to 30%. MJ barely got 42% on them and this is the GOAT we are talking about. How lucky is it that LeBron managed to avoid having to play against competition like this?

https://i.postimg.cc/hj3c22p6/screen-shot-2015-08-25-at-2-33-24-pm.png

Cool story and everything. But MJ >>>>> bron and last time i checked stockton & Jeff >>>>>>>>> terry & jj. Can't remember the time that Jordan was held under 20 ppg in a final. Refresh my memory. Fun fact. Stockton is the all time leader in steals

[And1AllDay]

Cool story and everything. But MJ >>>>> bron and last time i checked stockton & Jeff >>>>>>>>> terry & jj. Can't remember the time that Jordan was held under 20 ppg in a final. Refresh my memory. Fun fact. Stockton is the all time leader in steals

whats mikes best finals win? any of brans 4 rings > all of mikes 6

[2much_knowledge]

whats mikes best finals win? any of brans 4 rings > all of mikes 6

Doesn't take a genius to figure out that mikes finals were actually in the East. Mike = very strong east, average finals . Bran = very strong finals, weak ass east. So the point is mute.

[Shooter]

What MJ said in the 1990s about players in the 1970s now applies to him and his era compared to current players.

Michael Jordan, 1990:

"The players today can do things they couldn't do twenty years ago. Those [old] concepts don't work against bigger, faster players who jump higher."

:lol Yep

[Mauzah]

Starts out his thread by sarcastically saying John Stockton was a great defensive player. Jesus Christ, man.

[And1AllDay]

Starts out his thread by sarcastically saying John Stockton was a great defensive player. Jesus Christ, man.

:oldlol::roll::roll: