Surprising truth about MJ

[Trollsmasher]

[QUOTE]I will also say, on a related note, go back and watch the old MJ highlight reels and because of illegal defense but also because just how the game was played, teams rarely doubled Jordan, which

[warriorfan]

With no handchecking, increased pace, and modern spacing?

50 ppg is not out of the question

[Bronbron23]

https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/1198136433678020608

How would Iso Mike do in a league where he would have to more than one read of a defense?
If you actually watched mj you would know that teams actually doubled him a fair amount earlier In His career. They realized fast though that it dosnt work. Mj is way to fast and skilled. He beats double teams like it's nothing. Wether it's splitting them, going around them or passing out of them and then relocating with his elite off ball movement it just dosnt work. Mj still ends up penetrating and now there's less help and a couple guys wide open.

The best strategy for mj was to gaurd him one on one, force him left and collapse as soon as he drives. This is what the bad boys did and it was pretty effective.

[Ainosterhaspie]

With no handchecking,
Biggest myth among older fans.

https://youtu.be/dX-aL7IKBG8

Handchecking is prevalent in today's game.

[egokiller]

Until players have to dribble up court with their back to the defender like they used to, the defensive rule set is shit.

[warriorfan]

Biggest myth among older fans.

https://youtu.be/dX-aL7IKBG8

Handchecking is prevalent in today's game.

Of course you can cherry pick a few examples but for the most part it is banned. We see a lot more touch fouls than real hand checks for the regular season. They do let it get more physical deeper into the playoffs though.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Wait, Airball told me MJ is great because he forces double teams.:wtf:

[Ainosterhaspie]

Of course you can cherry pick a few examples but for the most part it is banned. We see a lot more touch fouls than real hand checks for the regular season. They do let it get more physical deeper into the playoffs though.
It's not cherry picking. That's all one game, and I didn't include any of the many times guys were trying to handcheck but the offensive player quickly fends it off or makes a move that prevents it.

Another dirty little secret is that it wasn't remotely as commonly used in the 90s as people pretend. It was banned in the 80s and again in the 90s, but people keep pretending the 00s ban was the first time it started getting called.

[warriorfan]

It's not cherry picking. That's all one game, and I didn't include any of the many times guys were trying to handcheck but the offensive player quickly fends it off or makes a move that prevents it.

Another dirty little secret is that it wasn't remotely as commonly used in the 90s as people pretend. It was banned in the 80s and again in the 90s, but people keep pretending the 00s ban was the first time it started getting called.

There are like 4 to 5 pretty weak examples there over the course of an entire game that has over 200+ possessions in this high pace era when accounting for both teams. If you have to search so hard for so few low quality examples you are proving the point that hand checking is banned...

[Ainosterhaspie]

There are like 4 to 5 pretty weak examples there over the course of an entire game that has over 200+ possessions in this high pace era when accounting for both teams. If you have to search so hard for so few low quality examples you are proving the point that hand checking is banned...

It's not significantly different from the amount in most 90s games. People dramatically overstate how much it was used. And like I said above, the reason there aren't more Clips isn't because guys aren't trying to hand check it's because guys are good at fending off hand checks.

[warriorfan]

It's not significantly different from the amount in most 90s games. People dramatically over State how much it was used. And like I said above, the reason there aren't more Clips is it because guys aren't trying to hand check it's because guys are good at fending off hand checks.

Lmao. What???

:biggums:


So basically what you are saying is “The reason there is not more video evidence of hand checking is because it doesn’t occur because it isn’t effective anymore” ...

:roll:

Wow

[Real Men Wear Green]

Anyone that says MJ was rarely doubled didn't watch him and their opinion is thus invalid. That's a real litmus test. If you post that you're a liar and an idiot.

Trolls are generally stupid. There are real facts out there that you could stick to and maybe make a legit argument. Over time athletes get bigger, stronger and faster. You should not act like the modern athlete is just a different species from the 90s but do we have generally better shooters? Yes. Zion Williamson (if he gets to play) would be unheard-of in 1992. He is still unheard-of, but now only kind of, because of LeBron James. Evolution happens. But it happens slowly. MJ, Nique and Pip would still outjump 80-90% of the wings of today.

[egokiller]

There are like 4 to 5 pretty weak examples there over the course of an entire game that has over 200+ possessions in this high pace era when accounting for both teams. If you have to search so hard for so few low quality examples you are proving the point that hand checking is banned...

:roll:

Got his ass

[egokiller]

Anyone that says MJ was rarely doubled didn't watch him and their opinion is thus invalid. That's a real litmus test. If you post that you're a liar and an idiot.

Trolls are generally stupid. There are real facts out there that you could stick to and maybe make a legit argument. Over time athletes get bigger, stronger and faster. You should not act like the modern athlete is just a different species from the 90s but do we have generally better shooters? Yes. Zion Williamson (if he gets to play) would be unheard-of in 1992. He is still unheard-of, but now only kind of, because of LeBron James. Evolution happens. But it happens slowly. MJ, Nique and Pip would still outjump 80-90% of the wings of today.

What else do you expect these kids who never saw MJ do? They are already insecure about themselves for having to settle for watching Lebron instead of GOAT MJ, so it's only natural that they will say anything and everything in order to cope with the fact that they watched inferior ball being played relative to what we watched. Ainosterhaspie is a prime example of this. Tell yourself enough lies, and you believe it in order to cope. :lol

[LostCause]

Biggest myth among older fans.

https://youtu.be/dX-aL7IKBG8

Handchecking is prevalent in today's game.

If the rules say it isn't allowed, obviously, it doesn't exist

[Manny98]

#notmygoat

[SpaceJam2]

MJ feasted on a weak era, during a watered down league, while playing on stacked teams, when zone defense was illegal.

He has no goat placement in the modern era. He is somewhere in the Beal or Demar category due to poor IQ, vision, and ability to score on complex, defensive schemes.

[Turbo Slayer]

LeGOAT :rockon:

[LostCause]

MJ feasted on a weak era, during a watered down league, while playing on stacked teams, when zone defense was illegal.

He has no goat placement in the modern era. He is somewhere in the Beal or Demar category due to poor IQ, vision, and ability to score on complex, defensive schemes.

https://twitter.com/YahooSports/status/1102809954740658176?s=20

[egokiller]

Lebron feasted on a weak era, during a watered down league of relaxed defense, while playing on stacked teams, with cake walks to the finals each year. He has no goat placement, as he played during a weaker era, hence his numbers and accomplishments don't really matter compared to past all time greats.

:applause:

[Showtime80']

LOL, here's a clip of little Steve Nash who played from the end of the Jordan era up LeBalds and has forgotten more basketball than most of the lemming geeks in this forum will ever know combined.

He breaks it down to a basic level and confirms how people like David Stern, Rob Thorn and Jerry Colangelo to name a few altered all the defensive rules from the late 90's to the mid 2000's to prop up the mid 90's and onward crop of flawed fundamentals, IQ deficient and AAU poisoned perimeter players who couldn't shoot above 45% FG if their life depended on it thanks to playing basketball concentrating on their athleticism above everything else. Fast forward to minute 14:38:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHN3d9bpJ-g&t=915s

Here's the excerpt:

Steve Nash says about Grant Hill and the old school game "It was a different game then. They could put two hands on you, they could forearm you, they could knock you down, it was SUPER PHYSICAL and for him to be able to do it in an era where there were less possessions and it was LIKE WRESTLING out there!!!

Bill Simmons: "And then David Stern CHANGED THE RULES so you could succeed, you were the IMPETUS!!!"

Steve Nash: "Laughs! Changed my career. It think David Stern saw me and said this poor kid, if they can put their hands on him HE'S COOKED!!!"

LOL, shut it down. Sorry guys, LeBald and his band of modern Merryman are FRAUDS!!!

[Bronbron23]

MJ feasted on a weak era, during a watered down league, while playing on stacked teams, when zone defense was illegal.

He has no goat placement in the modern era. He is somewhere in the Beal or Demar category due to poor IQ, vision, and ability to score on complex, defensive schemes.
This guy really just said zone defences lol. Nobody uses a zone defence because it dosnt work against highly skilled players. There's to many gaps in zone defences and players in the NBA can shoot to good. Plus mj was an elite off ball mover so he would find the gaps and break the zone down easily.

You just keep exposing yourself with these idiotic statements :facepalm

[Trollsmasher]

This guy really just said zone defences lol. Nobody uses a zone defence because it dosnt work against highly skilled players. There's to many gaps in zone defences and players in the NBA can shoot to good. Plus mj was an elite off ball mover so he would find the gaps and break the zone down easily.

You just keep exposing yourself with these idiotic statements :facepalm
nobody really means classic, pure zone when we talk about illegal defense

we're talking modern, post-Thibs defensive schemes - shading, defending space etc...

Jordan hasn't seen a strong side load once in his life:roll:

[Ainosterhaspie]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Lmao. What???

:biggums:


So basically what you are saying is

[Ainosterhaspie]

nobody really means classic, pure zone when we talk about illegal defense

we're talking modern, post-Thibs defensive schemes - shading, defending space etc...

Jordan hasn't seen a strong side load once in his life:roll:
Too much nuance. You lost them.

[Turbo Slayer]

Too much nuance. You lost them.
Hand checking seems pretty effective. :confusedshrug:

idk I'm a 14 year old kid so dont ask me but...

my dad and I played 1v1 basketball a few days ago. We played 1 game to 21 with no hand checking and another game WITH hand checking. Without hand checking, I was able to get a few buckets. But with hand checking my dad abused me on defense. I wasn't able to get a bucket. :confusedshrug:

Major difference in terms of difficulty. :D

[Ainosterhaspie]

Hand checking seems pretty effective. :confusedshrug:

idk I'm a 14 year old kid so dont ask me but...

my dad and I played 1v1 basketball a few days ago. We played 1 game to 21 with no hand checking and another game WITH hand checking. Without hand checking, I was able to get a few buckets. But with hand checking my dad abused me on defense. I wasn't able to get a bucket. :confusedshrug:

Major difference in terms of difficulty. :D
I didn't say it can be effective. But offensive players have many ways to counter it. It is very common in today's game. It was not as common in the 90s as people claim. Claims that banning handchecking produced modern offense are wildly eggagerated.

[egokiller]

Hand checking seems pretty effective. :confusedshrug:

idk I'm a 14 year old kid so dont ask me but...

my dad and I played 1v1 basketball a few days ago. We played 1 game to 21 with no hand checking and another game WITH hand checking. Without hand checking, I was able to get a few buckets. But with hand checking my dad abused me on defense. I wasn't able to get a bucket. :confusedshrug:

Major difference in terms of difficulty. :D

Your dad is trying to show you what players back then had to play against compared to now. I can score so much easier today in officiated games than ever before. Defense touches me and they get whistled. Back then they hung on my jersey and I had to chop their arm just to break the hold and come off the pic in time to be at the right spot to get the ball in time. It’s so easy to score today.

[Ainosterhaspie]

https://youtu.be/03GT8q3BCZY

Here's highlights from MJ's incredible game against Portland where he was on fire from three. Where's the handchecking? Every single one he's wide open not even being defended. Do I have to watch the full game to find it? I've done that. It's not there like people claim. I'm not saying there was no handchecking, but people act like every play was a battle with defenders holding you preventing you from moving anywhere on the perimeter and that just isn't true.

And have you people actually watched teams defending Steph in the playoffs? First of all handchecking won't work on him most of the time because he's running around screens off ball and firing off a shot before the defender has a chance to get a hand on him. And when he's running around those screens defenders have their hands all over him. He has to shove a defender off half the time just to get started.

Patrick Beverly drapes himself all over the guys he's defending like he's a snuggie and commits endless reach in fouls which are rarely called. Meanwhile I remember yelling at the screen as Jordan was paraded to the free-throw line with an endless series of touch fouls is the supposedly uber physical 90s.

I'm not trying to say defense now is always great and physical or that it wasn't great and physical in the 90s, but people are seriously exaggerating the differences.

[egokiller]

MJ wasn

[Turbo Slayer]

[QUOTE=egokiller]Your dad is trying to show you what players back then had to play against compared to now. I can score so much easier today in officiated games than ever before. Defense touches me and they get whistled. Back then they hung on my jersey and I had to chop their arm just to break the hold and come off the pic in time to be at the right spot to get the ball in time. It

[egokiller]

:oldlol: my dad told me the same thing you told me in a different way. So I learned hand checking is the real deal.

:applause: Thanks for the education, dad! :oldlol: (And you egokiller, of course)

Weird how hand checking changes the game so much. :biggums:

Your dad is the father Pauk, RRR3, HeyYo, Manny98 and Simon never had. :lol

Only 14 and already having the facts down. :applause:

[Turbo Slayer]

Your dad is the father Pauk, RRR3, HeyYo, Manny98 and Simon never had. :lol

Only 14 and already having the facts down. :applause:
:applause: :applause: :applause: :rockon:

Thank you bruh.

[3ball]

.
No one ever shows the video - they only claim it said this or that - here's the actual video:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/QvXF8J.gif


During the Bulls-Pistons series, the Pistons' 4th quarter policy was to double-team MJ every single time he touched the ball.. Here's an examle from Game 6 of 1989 ECF, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88



Here's a video of MJ against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - the consecutive double-teams are shown in rapid succession:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s



The youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk)) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown if gifs here:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11792377&postcount=161



Here's the New York Times on Jordan, 1987:


"Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harrassment of zone traps and double-triple teaming to average 37.1 points a game."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E&t=0m49s



Even on the post, MJ was double-teamed equally - here's a Shaq post video that shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ post video (50%).


SHAQ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8
MJ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg


However, MJ got doubled all over the court, not just on the post - MJ's danger from anywhere on the court resulted in teams often doubling him 10+ possessions in a row, as various videos in the OP showed.. This type of every-possession double teams for 10 consecutive possessions never happened for Shaq, not even in the 2000 Finals.



By comparison, Lebron was doubled-teamed a TOTAL of 18 times in the entire Finals... So in comparison to MJ getting double-teamed 12 times in a single quarter, Lebron was doubled 3 times per game.


"Curry’s ability to guard one-on-one allowed the Warriors’ wing defenders to double-team LeBron James effectively. When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting (11 percent)".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team