Oh look - Luka was 0-8 on threes last night - surely he had something else to fall on

[3ball]

Nope - he's just another layups/threes bum from today's game with no midrange, and therefore doesn't know how to play basketball.

he'll never be a goat player because goat skill isn't possible in today's layups/threes format

the goat players are gone forever due to today's mickey mouse, beginner format

And obviously, Bird would murder this guy

[SouBeachTalents]

Luka's first 3ball thread, he's officially made it :applause:

[Manny98]

Luka at 20 = 32 PER

Peak MJ = 31.7 PER :roll:

[FultzNationRISE]

Luka's first 3ball thread, he's officially made it :applause:


There must be some obscure record for a second year player he's about to eclipse MJ for.

[red1]

OP is now calling 20 year old luka a bum 3ball has officially trashed every single player except MJ :roll:

[LAmbruh]

20yo Jordan wasn't even making All-American teams in college :oldlol:

[red1]

3ball doesn't even watch or understand basketball he just worships MJ and trashes everything else.



the guy is mentally ill. doomed to live a life of baldan worshiping. I wouldn't even be surprised if he killed his own father at this point.

[SpaceJam2]

3ball doesn't even watch or understand basketball he just worships MJ and trashes everything else.



the guy is mentally ill. doomed to live a life of baldan worshiping. I wouldn't even be surprised if he killed his own father at this point.

:eek:

Baldos stick together I guess

[3ball]

Luka at 20 = 32 PER

Peak MJ = 31.7 PER :roll:


Tells you everything you need to know about the difference in eras

MJ would be the first 33 PER player in today's game (he already got a 32 PER for the entire 91' Playoffs - the best basketball that's ever been played)

[SpaceJam2]

Tells you everything you need to know about the difference in eras... MJ would be the first 33 PER player in today's game (he already got a 32 PER for the entire 91' Playoffs - the best basketball that's ever been played)


Nope

LeBron did 32.2 in 2018

Top ranked PER through NBA Finals (for entire playoff run)


2018 LBJ: 32.2
1991 MJ: 32.0
2014 LBJ: 31.1
2000 Shaq: 30.5
2012 LBJ: 30.3
2017 LBJ: 30.1
1993 MJ: 30.1
2016 LBJ: 30.0
2003 Duncan: 28.4


We win again bois :dancin

[3ball]

Nope

LeBron did 32.2 in 2018

Top ranked PER through NBA Finals (for entire playoff run)


2018 LBJ: 32.2
1991 MJ: 32.0
2014 LBJ: 31.1
2000 Shaq: 30.5
2012 LBJ: 30.3
2017 LBJ: 30.1
1993 MJ: 30.1
2016 LBJ: 30.0
2003 Duncan: 28.4


We win again bois :dancin
who cares about your stats when you're getting beat as bad as my grandma would get beat (record amount)

:whatever:

[SouBeachTalents]

who cares about your stats when you're getting beat as bad as my grandma would get beat (record amount)

:whatever:
Yep, exactly why Jordan's 63 point game doesn't mean dick

[SpaceJam2]

who cares about your stats when you're getting beat as bad as my grandma would get beat (record amount)

:whatever:


So blame Bron for 34-10-9 on 52% in the Finals

:lol

32.2 > 32.0

Next

[3ball]

Yep, exactly why Jordan's 63 point game doesn't mean dick
Jordan almost won that game - he wasn't getting beat by record amount

imagine if a coach's entire strategy was to get the most stats for 1 player - that player would obviously get great stats but have no chance of winning and lose by a shit ton - that's what Lebron-ball is

Otoh, Jordan's 63 gave his team a chance to win and therefore wasn't a ploy to maximize stats with NO chance to win like Lebron's many stat-padding blowout losses.. :facepalm
.

[Manny98]

who cares about your stats when you're getting beat as bad as my grandma would get beat (record amount)

:whatever:
Like how MJ got spanked 3 consecutive years by the Pistons

[3ball]

Like how MJ got spanked 3 consecutive years by the Pistons
MJ led a 6 seed to 6 games against the champs, while Lebron's 2 seed got swept or beat by record amount in 2014 and 2018

it's not even close.. mj did way more with less

[SpaceJam2]

MJ led a 6 seed to 6 games against the champs, while Lebron's 2 seed got swept or beat by record amount in 2014 and 2018

it's not even close.. mj did way more with less

MJ did 1/10 before Pippen saved him

Got it? :lol

[PeroAntic]

Luka is officially a threat to MJ:oldlol:

3ball bro I love MJ and hest the goat but youre a joke

[DMAVS41]

Just to be clear...

Luka, a 20 year old in his 2nd year, is a "bum"...

Imagine actually holding that opinion while watching him lead what is, at best, an average offensive supporting cast to the clear cut best offense in the league through nearly a qtr of the season.

While winning at nearly a 55 game pace as well.

Imagine actually believing that shit.

[3ball]

MJ did 1/10 before Pippen saved him

Got it? :lol
every time I hear 1-9, I think "got em"..

because you can't respond to the point being made... 1-9 = you got me

Ultimately, Lebron only made the playoffs with good teams/high seeds that were seasoned for several years via roster additions and coaching changes (2006), and therefore his carrying ability with truly bad teams is overrated (he missed playoffs with teams that were lottery the year prior - 04', 05, 19' - he wasn't good enough to carry a bad team to a low seed like MJ did and only had high seeds in the playoffs)

[SpaceJam2]

every time I hear 1-9, I think "got em"..

because you can't respond to the point being made... 1-9 = you got me

Ultimately, Lebron only made the playoffs with good teams/high seeds that were seasoned for several years via roster additions and coaching changes (2006), and therefore his carrying ability with truly bad teams is overrated (he missed playoffs with teams that were lottery the year prior - 04', 05, 19')


Anytime you talk about "LeBron needed help" I think "got em".

1 for 10 is all that needs to be said

1-9
1/10
1 for 10
1 in 10

However you wanna slice it

[DMAVS41]

every time I hear 1-9, I think "got em"..

because you can't respond to the point being made... 1-9 = you got me

Ultimately, Lebron only made the playoffs with good teams/high seeds that were seasoned for several years via roster additions and coaching changes (2006), and therefore his carrying ability with truly bad teams is overrated (he missed playoffs with teams that were lottery the year prior - 04', 05, 19' - he wasn't good enough to carry a bad team to a low seed like MJ did and only had high seeds in the playoffs)

MJ is one of my favorite players ever. In my opinion, he's clearly the best player ever.

However, supporting casts actually matter.

[3ball]

MJ is one of my favorite players ever. In my opinion, he's clearly the best player ever.

However, supporting casts actually matter.
Right, and Lebron entered the league with a 2-time all-star center teammate, but missed the playoffs in 04' and 05'

MJ entered the league with nothing - so right away, we see MJ doing more with a weaker cast - this continues each year, as MJ's superior stats result in weaker records due to a weaker cast and stronger conference..

Just compare Jordan's 85-89' casts to Lebron's 04-10' casts - MJ has no teammates with accolades while Lebron played with 3 all-stars (Mo, Zydrunas, Jamison), 2 all-defenders (Varejao, Hughes), and the COY (Brown).. it's not even close, which is why Lebron's lesser stats during this period resulted in far more wins - the most egregious example is 1989 vs 2009, when MJ's 33/8/8 achieved 47 wins, while Lebron's 28/8/7 achieved 66 wins.

This is the story EVERY YEAR during that time period.. Again, Lebron never had a bad team make the playoffs, which is why he always had high seeds, while MJ had to carry truly bad teams to low seeds




MJ is one of my favorite players ever. In my opinion, he's clearly the best player ever.

However, supporting casts actually matter.

09' Mo was far better than 89' Pippen:


09' Mo Will RS:. 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS:.. 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF:fni 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. lost to #4 SRS (2 all-stars)
89' Pippen 1st Rd:. 15/9/4.. 51.0 ts.. 102 ORtg.. beat 'i #1 SRS (3 all-stars*)

* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper
.

[DMAVS41]

Right, and Lebron entered the league with a 2-time all-star center teammate, but missed the playoffs in 04' and 05'

MJ entered the league with nothing - so right away, we see MJ doing more with a weaker cast - this continues each year, as MJ's superior stats result in weaker records due to a weaker cast and stronger conference..

Just compare Jordan's 85-89' casts to Lebron's 04-10' casts - MJ has no teammates with accolades while Lebron played with 3 all-stars (Mo, Zydrunas, Jamison), 2 all-defenders (Varejao, Hughes), and the COY (Brown).. it's not even close, which is why Lebron's lesser stats during this period resulted in far more wins - the most egregious example is 1989 vs 2009, when MJ's 33/8/8 achieved 47 wins, while Lebron's 28/8/7 achieved 66 wins.

This is the story EVERY YEAR during that time period.. Again, Lebron never had a bad team make the playoffs, which is why he always had high seeds, while MJ had to carry truly bad teams to low seeds





09' Mo was far better than 89' Pippen:


09' Mo Will RS:. 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS:.. 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF:fni 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. lost to #4 SRS (2 all-stars)
89' Pippen 1st Rd:. 15/9/4.. 51.0 ts.. 102 ORtg.. beat 'i #1 SRS (3 all-stars*)

* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper
.

Again, why would I be suprised if the superior player, Jordan, gets better results than Lebron? It is what I would expect.

However, I'm really confused as to why you'd bring up 89 Pippen. The Bulls didn't win in 89 and iirc, they won like 45 games.

Also, Mo Williams absolutely fell apart in the playoffs...and wasn't 10% as good as Pippen on defense.

Pippen was a great player...Jordan needed him to win. This is just a fact.


Please respond to my other post. Luka has had the ball in his hands more than any other player in the league. He's currently leading the clear cut best offense in the league with a nothing of note supporting cast. Please explain how that is worthy of "bum" status...

[3ball]

Mo Williams absolutely fell apart in the playoffs...and wasn't 10% as good as Pippen on defense.


Did you read my post?.. 89' Pippen performed even worse than Mo, yet MJ upset the #1 SRS team, while Lebron lost as the favorite to the #4 SRS

And don't bring up defense because the Cavs had the 3rd ranked defense in 2009, compared to the Bulls' 9th ranked defense - Lebron had WAY more defensive help than 89' MJ.

you've simply gone along with the group-think that Lebron carries teams - but he always had a good team when he made the playoffs (4 seed or higher every year), and failed 3 times to carry an actual lottery team to a low-seed playoff berth (04', 05', 19').. so based on Lebron missing the playoffs in 04' and 05', we should've KNOWN Lebron wouldn't make the playoffs in 2019.





Pippen was a great player


Not in 1989, yet the Bulls were the only team to win 2 games off the Pistons that year

they would've won if Pippen was replaced by say, 19' Ingram (who was obviously held back by Bron, per the standard of bron-ball)..

or any number of dudes could've replaced 89' or 90' Pippen and allowed the Bulls to win the ring... MJ 3-peats with Worthy from 89-91'... :confusedshrug:





Please respond to my other post. Luka has had the ball in his hands more than any other player in the league. He's currently leading the clear cut best offense in the league with a nothing of note supporting cast. Please explain how that is worthy of "bum" status...


It's a bum league - drive-and-kick for 3-pointers with a wide open paint on every possession isn't basketball..

in a league of bum basketball, luka is the king of the bums.

my entire point is that luka wouldn't be shit in previous eras where he wouldn't have a spread floor (no teammates spacing the floor), thus requiring real basketball (midrange) - we saw last night that when you take away Luka's threes, he's shit, which is what he'd be in the 80's and 90's..
.

[tpols]

Kawhi and durant both heavily utilize the midrange.

[DMAVS41]

Why would anyone care about 1989? The Bulls didn't win...in fact, they wouldn't win the next year either.

What is your point?

No, sorry...your response can't be "everyone sucks in the league now"...that doesn't fly. Even if it did...you calling him a "bum" is relative to other players. So your initial point and response make no sense.

Lastly, and I don't even like doing it, but if those numbers really make you think Pippen was worse and we are comparing 89 to 09...

Jordan ECF 30/6/7...56% TS...112 ortg....21.4 gmsc

Lebron ECF 39/8/8...59% TS...118 ortg...29.3 gmsc

So, like usual, you are stuck...either admit Lebron was better...or you have to go back on what you just claimed as the evidence Mo was better than Pippen.

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Kawhi and durant both heavily utilize the midrange.
Accordingly, both would be good in the 80's and 90's where the spread floor didn't exist (no teammates spreading the floor with threes), thus requiring midrange shots over crowded paints..

But unfortunately, even though Kawhi and Durant's killer midrange skillset was the standard in previous eras, it's a rarity now and is actually the factor that usually separates great players from good players in today's game

[tpols]

Accordingly, both would be good in the 80's and 90's where the spread floor didn't exist (no teammates spreading the floor with threes), thus requiring midrange shots over crowded paints..

But unfortunately, even though Kawhi and Durant's killer midrange skillset was the standard in previous eras, it's a rarity now and is actually the factor that usually separates great players from good players in today's game


Their midrange was far more than average. Durant for instance shits on Clyde drexler Scottie Pippen penny isaiah Thomas magic Gary Payton john stockton etc. from anywhere on the floor shooting the ball. So does kawhi. MJ is literally the only guy with better shooting that could still handle the ball.

[StrongLurk]

The biggest irony from OP is that he doesn't watch the NBA and is the biggest box-score watcher on ISH by far...

Part of me thinks OP is either Jeff or a deranged troll who actually uses MJ as a medium to get his daily troll fix.

[ImKobe]

The biggest irony from OP is that he doesn't watch the NBA and is the biggest box-score watcher on ISH by far...

Part of me thinks OP is either Jeff or a deranged troll who actually uses MJ as a medium to get his daily troll fix.

It would make sense that he's Jeff since Jeff also owns half the Lebron alts here.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I thought this 5 thread was about Luka. Why all the talk about Jordan and LeBron?

Also Luka has very good midrange numbers right now: 52% from 3-10, 56% from 10-16 and 60% fromn16-3pt line. Those are really good numbers actually, though it's on low volume. Not seeing a reason to worry about his midrange game honestly.

[tpols]

I thought this 5 thread was about Luka. Why all the talk about Jordan and LeBron?

Also Luka has very good midrange numbers right now: 52% from 3-10, 56% from 10-16 and 60% fromn16-3pt line. Those are really good numbers actually, though it's on low volume. Not seeing a reason to worry about his midrange game honestly.


True...there's no reason why he wouldn't be able to shoot them. If he were in a past era he'd be like a taller juiced up Chris Mullin.

[3ball]

Why would anyone care about 1989? The Bulls didn't win...in fact, they wouldn't win the next year either.

What is your point?


Lebron's worst cast was his 2005 lottery team, where all-star Zydrunas destroys 89' Pippen.

So my point is that Jordan's 85-89' casts are worse than any cast Lebron ever had, but no one realizes this and thinks Lebron was carrying equally-weak teams to better records..

But he wasn't - he simply had better teams, which is why he always had a 4+ seed in the playoffs, and infact missed the playoffs all 3 times he had a lottery team (a team that was lottery the prior year)..

Essentially, he couldn't carry lottery casts to low seeds like MJ did, so he never faced the 8 vs 1 seed matchups that MJ did - he only made the playoffs with high seeds that had easy 1st round matchups, thus inflating his record compared to MJ... But obviously, if his 9 seed in 2005 had made the playoffs as the 8 seed, they would've been swept by the champion Pistons just like MJ's 8 seed got swept by the Celtics..







No, sorry...your response can't be "everyone sucks in the league now"...that doesn't fly. Even if it did...you calling him a "bum" is relative to other players. So your initial point and response make no sense.


No, it makes perfect sense:

In previous eras, Luka wouldn't have teammates to spread the floor for him, so he'd need to shoot midrange over crowded paints like everyone else to be a top player - since he sucks at midrange, he'd suck back then... but in today's bum format, he can excel.. how does that not make sense to you?





Lastly, and I don't even like doing it, but if those numbers really make you think Pippen was worse and we are comparing 89 to 09...

Jordan ECF 30/6/7...56% TS...112 ortg....21.4 gmsc

Lebron ECF 39/8/8...59% TS...118 ortg...29.3 gmsc

So, like usual, you are stuck...either admit Lebron was better...or you have to go back on what you just claimed as the evidence Mo was better than Pippen.

:confusedshrug:
You're comparing the wrong series

MJ averaged 40/6/8 on 53% when his #10 SRS Bulls beat the #1 SRS Cavs in 1989

Pippen averaged 15.0 on 39.8% in that series, which is worse than Mo Williams' 18 on 38% in the 2009 ECF, when the #1 SRS Cavs lost to the #4 SRS Magic.

So try again.. 3ball is never "stuck" and has the hoops acumen to rise above any argument.

[ImKobe]

I thought this 5 thread was about Luka. Why all the talk about Jordan and LeBron?

Also Luka has very good midrange numbers right now: 52% from 3-10, 56% from 10-16 and 60% fromn16-3pt line. Those are really good numbers actually, though it's on low volume. Not seeing a reason to worry about his midrange game honestly.

Anyone who actually saw him play prior to the NBA knows that he has a mid-range game, he's just adapted to the NBA and made himself as efficient as he could be, now will that translate to the Playoffs? Probably not.

[3ball]

Their midrange was far more than average. Durant for instance shits on Clyde drexler Scottie Pippen penny isaiah Thomas magic Gary Payton john stockton etc. from anywhere on the floor shooting the ball. So does kawhi. MJ is literally the only guy with better shooting that could still handle the ball.
Nonsense - guys like Alex English, Bernard King, and Adrian Dantley were better midrange scorers than Durant and Kawhi - those guys averaged 30 on JUST midrange, while Durant and Kawhi still rely quite a bit on the threes and open lane that today's spread floor strategy provides

[tpols]

Nonsense - guys like Alex English, Bernard King, and Adrian Dantley were better midrange scorers than Durant and Kawhi - those guys averaged 30 on JUST midrange, while Durant and Kawhi still rely quite a bit on the threes and open lane that today's spread floor strategy provides


Yea and kawhi or Durant shit on them as overall offensive players.

I mean Alex English... Really?

:roll:

[stalkerforlife]

He's 20.

Don't be crazy.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron's worst cast was his 2005 lottery team, where all-star Zydrunas destroys 89' Pippen.

So my point is that Jordan's 85-89' casts are worse than any cast Lebron ever had, but no one realizes this and thinks Lebron was carrying equally-weak teams to better records..

But he wasn't - he simply had better teams, which is why he always had a 4+ seed in the playoffs, and infact missed the playoffs all 3 times he had a lottery team (a team that was lottery the prior year)..

Essentially, he couldn't carry lottery casts to low seeds like MJ did, so he never faced the 8 vs 1 seed matchups that MJ did - he only made the playoffs with high seeds that had easy 1st round matchups, thus inflating his record compared to MJ... But obviously, if his 9 seed in 2005 had made the playoffs as the 8 seed, they would've been swept by the champion Pistons just like MJ's 8 seed got swept by the Celtics..





No, it makes perfect sense:

In previous eras, Luka wouldn't have teammates to spread the floor for him, so he'd need to shoot midrange over crowded paints like everyone else to be a top player - since he sucks at midrange, he'd suck back then... but in today's bum format, he can excel.. how does that not make sense to you?



You're comparing the wrong series

MJ averaged 40/6/8 on 53% when his #10 SRS Bulls beat the #1 SRS Cavs in 1989

Pippen averaged 15.0 on 39.8% in that series, which is worse than Mo Williams' 18 on 38% in the 2009 ECF, when the #1 SRS Cavs lost to the #4 SRS Magic.

So try again.. 3ball is never "stuck" and has the hoops acumen to rise above any argument.

I compared their performances in the ECF of the years you chose. By your own definition...Lebron was better.

The other stuff might be relevant to some other person, but not me.

And, no, Luka would not be a "bum" in other eras...nor is he in this one.

You literally fail on each point you are trying to make.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I compared their performances in the ECF of the years you chose. By your own definition...Lebron was better.

The other stuff might be relevant to some other person, but not me.

And, no, Luka would not be a "bum" in other eras...nor is he in this one.

You literally fail on each point you are trying to make.
https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEjHVtFOfQKzqG8ms/giphy.gif

[3ball]

Yea and kawhi or Durant shit on them as overall offensive players.

I mean Alex English... Really?

:roll:
Alex English averaged 30 a game with no spacing - he destroys Durant as a scorer from 5-18 feet

Making shots where the defender almost blocks your shot is the true skill in the game, and players in previous eras were simply much better at it in the crowded midrange areas.... because they had to be.. the crowded paints that we see on the footage is where players were expected to take the vast majority of their shots.. the expectation of making shots ON defenders made players better shot-makers.. So even though the 2-point areas were more occupied by defenders back then (crowded paint and middle of the floor), 2-point efficiency was equal or better than today's game because of this superior shot-making skill in the midrange area.

Like, every once in a while when I'm watching today's highlights, I'll see a guy take an awkward looking, off-balance midrange shot that they were forced to take due to shot clock or some other factor.. they invariably brick it badly and it looks ugly... but these shots were the STANDARD in previous eras - the lack of spacing forced guys to make shots ON defenders - and they developed this skill so they usually didn't look as ugly as today's player, who looks like a fish out of water when they have to take those shots.
.

[3ball]

I compared their performances in the ECF of the years you chose. By your own definition...Lebron was better.


The champion Pistons were much better than Dwight's Magic - so that explains MJ's lower stats.

(in addition to Stan Van Gundy not doubling (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466601) Lebron, while MJ faced the Jordan Rules/constant double-teams).

So again, the Pistons were far better than the Magic, which makes comparing the individual stats from those series dumb.

Otoh, the #1 SRS Cavs were only a little better than the #4 SRS Magic, so that's a better series to compare the individual stats.. MJ had a lesser-producing sidekick and weaker team defense, yet he beat a superior team than the one Lebron lost to with a better-producing sidekick and better team defense.





And, no, Luka would not be a "bum" in other eras...nor is he in this one.


^^^ That isn't an argument - that's you talking like a grade-schooler "because i SAID so...(pout)"

Here's the reality - Luka wouldn't have teammates to spread the floor for him back then, so he'd need to shoot midrange over crowded paints like everyone else to be a top player - since he sucks at midrange, he'd suck back then...

but in today's bum format where the middle of the floor is wide open and midrange isn't required, he can excel..

I hope for your sake that you can understand this simple logic and factual reality about the game





You literally fail on each point you are trying to make.


Why, because you said so?

You didn't refute a single thing I said - you just said "ur wrong"... that isn't a counter.





The other stuff might be relevant to some other person, but not me.


You asked me what my point was for bringing up the 1989 Bulls

I told you that Lebron's worst cast was his 2004 and 2005 lottery teams, where all-star Zydrunas destroys 89' Pippen - therefore, Jordan's 85-89' casts are worse than any cast Lebron ever had, but no one realizes this and thinks Lebron was carrying equally-weak teams to better records..

But he wasn't - he simply had better teams, which is why he always had a 4+ seed in the playoffs, and infact missed the playoffs all 3 times he had a lottery team (a team that was lottery the prior year)..

Essentially, he couldn't carry lottery casts to low seeds like MJ did, so he never faced the 8 vs 1 seed matchups that MJ did - he only made the playoffs with high seeds that had easy 1st round matchups, thus inflating his record compared to MJ...

[Velocirap31]

You know Luka is damn good when 3ball starts running him down.

[3ball]

You know Luka is damn good when 3ball starts running him down.
https://media.giphy.com/media/OdHeYw7XBk6EE/giphy.gif


He's good... for this era

[DMAVS41]

You refute yourself. I don't care about any of the Pippen vs Mo stuff...you brought it up. You brought up the stats. I simply used your own definition against you and now you are shifting your argument to something about how the ECF doesn't matter.

Here is the truth...you talk to anyone in the world that knows basketball and you tell them that Mo Williams was better than Pippen....and they laugh at you.

My take on the Lebron vs Jordan stuff is simple. MJ was clearly better, but Lebron is also one of the best ever and to argue that he didn't "carry" teams from 06-10 is about the height of ignorance.

You have to understand...I don't care about 90% of what you post because it is against positions I don't even hold. You are arguing with ghosts on here a large majority of the time...which is fine, but don't expect me to care about most of what you post if it isn't relevant to what I care about.

I simply said that supporting casts matter...and you went on a tangent about Pippen vs Mo Williams like I should know what the **** you are talking about.

Well, I could post Luka's stats that you think are relevant to how good a player is, but you'll just shy away and refuse to stay consistent. All I'll say is that a player at Luka's size with his handle, ability to finish at the rim, passing ability, and shot-making ability...is not going to be a "bum" in any era. Again, take that to anyone in the world that knows the game and you get laughed out of the room.

Just like your bullshit about Luka holding back his team because he has the ball so often. Yea, having the best offense in the league with a ragtag supporting cast is really underachieving...what a ****ing bum.

[StrongLurk]

2009 Magic had the number 1 defense in the league right?

[DMAVS41]

2009 Magic had the number 1 defense in the league right?

Of course they did.

And the team Jordan played in 89 in the ECF did not.

The Pistons were definitely a better team though, but what is funny...is that all the metrics 3ball uses to judge teams and such...will paint them as really similar.

Magic won 59 games / 11th offense / 1st defense / 6.48 SRS (4th)

Pistons won 63 games / 7th offense / 3rd defense / 6.24 SRS (4th)


But, of course, we can't compare performances using his own definitions...:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

You refute yourself. I don't care about any of the Pippen vs Mo stuff...you brought it up. You brought up the stats. I simply used your own definition against you and now you are shifting your argument to something about how the ECF doesn't matter.


But then I explained why your simple analogy doesn't work - the champion Pistons were much better than Dwight's Magic - so that explains MJ's lower stats.

(in addition to Stan Van Gundy not doubling Lebron, while MJ faced the Jordan Rules/constant double-teams).

Otoh, the #1 SRS Cavs were only a little better than the #4 SRS Magic, so that's a better series to compare the individual stats.. MJ had a lesser-producing sidekick and weaker team defense, yet he beat a superior team than the one Lebron lost to with a better-producing sidekick and better team defense.





Here is the truth...you talk to anyone in the world that knows basketball and you tell them that Mo Williams was better than Pippen....and they laugh at you.


88-90' Pippen cost Jordan 3 rings - anyone good would've won with MJ in those years, especially 89' and 90'.

And yes - 89' Pippen was worse offensively than Mo', while Lebron also had a better team defense - so Lebron had better help on both sides of the ball, yet lost to weaker teams than MJ beat.





My take on the Lebron vs Jordan stuff is simple. MJ was clearly better, but Lebron is also one of the best ever and to argue that he didn't "carry" teams from 06-10 is about the height of ignorance.


I never said Lebron couldn't carry teams - just not as good as Jordan

Lebron missed the playoffs 3 times with lottery teams - so he didn't carry lottery casts to low seeds like MJ did, and therefore never faced the 8 vs 1 seed matchups that MJ did - Lebron only made the playoffs with high seeds and easy 1st round matchups, thus inflating his early record compared to MJ.





Well, I could post Luka's stats that you think are relevant to how good a player is, but you'll just shy away and refuse to stay consistent. All I'll say is that a player at Luka's size with his handle, ability to finish at the rim, passing ability, and shot-making ability...is not going to be a "bum" in any era. Again, take that to anyone in the world that knows the game and you get laughed out of the room.


Not true - Luka plays a different game than was required back then to be a good player, and there's no guarantee that he'd automatically add/adjust his game sufficiently

Luka wouldn't have teammates to spread the floor for him back then, so he'd need to shoot midrange over crowded paints like everyone else to be a top player - since he sucks at midrange, he'd suck back then...

but in today's bum format where the middle of the floor is wide open and midrange isn't required, he can excel..

[DMAVS41]

Actually, the Magic's defense both based on drtg and performance relative to the league...was better than the Piston's...again, using your own definitions. Sorry, this is a fact. It is true to say the Pistons were a better team, but the defense was not better based on your own arguments. So when comparing offensive production...this is more than fair.

Never once have I argued Lebron was as good as better than Jordan...nor did I ever argue that he carried teams as well as Jordan. In addition, I never argued that MJ couldn't have won with better help from 88-90.

Again, you argue with a ghost.

No, Luka's size and skillset automatically makes him not a "bum" in any era ever. You talk about evidence, but you have absolutely no evidence here. His size/skillset is unique...he's producing at a historic rate currently...and his team is seriously over performing so far (although I expect this to come back to reality)...to quote you...

"Why? Because you say so with no evidence?"

[3ball]

Of course they did.

And the team Jordan played in 89 in the ECF did not.

The Pistons were definitely a better team though, but what is funny...is that all the metrics 3ball uses to judge teams and such...will paint them as really similar.

Magic won 59 games / 11th offense / 1st defense / 6.48 SRS (4th)

Pistons won 63 games / 7th offense / 3rd defense / 6.24 SRS (4th)


But, of course, we can't compare performances using his own definitions...:confusedshrug:
You have to look at how the actual series played - the Magic/Cavs series was a no-defense shootout where both teams achieved near or exceeded their regular season ortg ..

Otoh, the bulls/pistons series was a lockdown defensive battle

Again, this explains the gap in stats... and btw, lebron-ball has typically lost the shootout/no defense series (09' ECF, 11' Finals) and won or overperformed in defensive series (07' ECF, 08' ECSF)

ultimately, the Pistons were a dynasty while the Magic were one of the worst teams to ever make a Finals, so it's dumb to compare individual stats from those series..

Otoh, the #1 SRS Cavs from 1989 were only a little better than the #4 SRS Magic from 2009., so that's a better series to compare the individual stats.. in that comparison, MJ had a weaker offensive sidekick and weaker team defense, yet he beat a superior team than the one Lebron lost to with a better-producing sidekick and better team defense.

[DMAVS41]

You have to look at how the actual series played - the Magic/Cavs series was a no-defense shootout where both teams achieved near or exceeded their regular season ortg ..

Otoh, the bulls/pistons series was a lockdown defensive battle

Again, this explains the gap in stats... and btw, lebron-ball has typically lost the shootout/no defense series (09' ECF, 11' Finals) and won or overperformed in defensive series (07' ECF, 08' ECSF)

ultimately, the Pistons were a dynasty while the Magic were one of the worst teams to ever make a Finals, so it's dumb to compare individual stats from those series..

Otoh, the #1 SRS Cavs from 1989 were only a little better than the #4 SRS Magic from 2009., so that's a better series to compare the individual stats.. in that comparison, MJ had a weaker offensive sidekick and weaker team defense, yet he beat a superior team than the one Lebron lost to with a better-producing sidekick and better team defense.

Nope, based on your previously used definitions...the Pistons/Magic were comparable teams.

In those respective series, Lebron was considerably better than Jordan...again, based on the criteria you used earlier. You can bring up other series, but in a comparison of those two series...which in 89/09 respectively were the two most important series Lebron/Jordan played...Lebron was clearly better.

This is what we all reference when we say you get "stuck"...you can't hold remotely consistent positions...well, because your positions aren't consistent.

:cheers:

[3ball]

Nope, based on your previously used definitions...the Pistons/Magic were comparable teams.

In those respective series, Lebron was considerably better than Jordan...again, based on the criteria you used earlier. You can bring up other series, but in a comparison of those two series...which in 89/09 respectively were the two most important series Lebron/Jordan played...Lebron was clearly better.

This is what we all reference when we say you get "stuck"...you can't hold remotely consistent positions...well, because your positions aren't consistent.

:cheers:
Not, you're either too dumb to consider nuance, or playing dumb because you know you lost the argument

I made all my points and you refuted none of them.. anyone reading the thread (probably no one) would see that ur playing dumb and my arguments are sound and backed up by facts

Carry on playing dumb

[DMAVS41]

Not, you're either too dumb to consider nuance, or playing dumb because you know you lost the argument

I made all my points and you refuted none of them.. anyone reading the thread (probably no one) would see that ur playing dumb and my arguments are sound and backed up by facts

Carry on playing dumb

Dude...there wasn't even an argument about Jordan vs. Lebron.

I simply made a statement that "supporting casts matter"...and then you went on some deranged tangent that isn't consistent.

I also made a statement that Lebron in the ECF in 09 was better than Jordan was in the ECF in 89...which is just a fact based on your own criteria. Again, sorry if you don't like it, but I'm using your criteria.

Lastly, you said Luka would be a "bum" in other eras...and have provided no evidence of this. Just idiotic conjecture that a guy with Luka's size and skillset is going to suck relative to other players not half as talented.

Like, you really ****ing think Danny Ainge would be known as considerably better than Luka if they both played in the 80's and 90's together? You really want to be taken seriously on a basketball forum with opinions like that?

[Draz]

Sounds like an insecure thread tbh. Kid is doing things no one else was doing at his age and is only going to get better because there's no way he's at his best now granted he doesn't suffer from injuries and has a prolonged career.

He's exactly what teams die for when drafting a player.

[DMAVS41]

Sounds like an insecure thread tbh. Kid is doing things no one else was doing at his age and is only going to get better because there's no way he's at his best now granted he doesn't suffer from injuries and has a prolonged career.

He's exactly what teams die for when drafting a player.

Yep, and I've been leading the "tap the brakes" on Luka/Mavs for over a week now....so I get why there is a little push back because this likely won't continue at this level.

However, imagine thinking a 6-7 guard with one of the best handles ever at that size, with elite court vision and passing ability, already great at attacking the rim/drawing fouls, has shown a knack for making big shots/plays, that rebounds extremely well, has great shot-making ability in guarded situations...and is currently leading, by far, the best offense in the league...

Is a "bum"...

And the very numbers/criteria he uses to argue for and against other players...are ignored here as well.

Imagine being dumb enough to be a die-hard fan of basketball and having these thoughts.

[greymatter]

Ordan knew all about not falling to the tune of 29% career 3pt shooting.

[zeerghit]

Ordan knew all about not falling to the tune of 29% career 3pt shooting.
at least someone knows how to spell his name correctly

[3ball]

Dude...there wasn't even an argument about Jordan vs. Lebron.

I simply made a statement that "supporting casts matter"...and then you went on some deranged tangent that isn't consistent.


My original point was that Lebron can't carry lottery teams to low seeds like MJ did, because Lebron failed to carry lottery teams to the playoffs 3 times, and infact only made the playoffs with good teams/high seeds

That's when you defended lebron by acting like he had no cast (you said "supporting casts matter").. So I pointed out that Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team, and therefore his worst casts were better than MJ's 85-89' casts

Then I pointed out how MJ beat better teams then Dwight's Magic despite having a weaker offensive 2nd option and weaker team defense (pip shit the bed worse than Mo and the Bulls had a much lower ranked defense)

As you can see, my arguments make sense, but I suppose all that logic at once must've confused you, based on your misguided responses





I also made a statement that Lebron in the ECF in 09 was better than Jordan was in the ECF in 89...which is just a fact based on your own criteria. Again, sorry if you don't like it, but I'm using your criteria.


The stats of the "help" can be compared more directly because role players face similar defensive coverage and don't influence brand of ball like the #1 option does.. Essentially, role players can't stat-pad meaningless stats in losses like the #1 option can

(we're always saying how a #1 option's stats were padding because he lost, while another #1 option had a better series despite lesser stats because his stats effected victory or overachievement)

But regardless of these obvious realities, there's further nuance to consider - Lebron faced a 108 DRTG series, no double teams, and a bad opponent, while MJ faced a 103 DRTG, the Jordan Rules, and a dynasty

But go ahead and think that a guy who couldn't command a double-team and lost as the favored 1 seed had a better series than the target the Jordan Rules, who was carrying a low seed to a close series vs the champs.. one was stat-padding (the opposing coach agreed), while the other guy was leading his team to gross overachievement





Lastly, you said Luka would be a "bum" in other eras...and have provided no evidence of this. Just idiotic conjecture that a guy with Luka's size and skillset is going to suck relative to other players not half as talented.

Like, you really ****ing think Danny Ainge would be known as considerably better than Luka if they both played in the 80's and 90's together? You really want to be taken seriously on a basketball forum with opinions like that?


We know for a fact that Luka sucks at mid-range

We know for a fact that the lack of spread floor in previous eras forced players to shoot mid-range over crowded paints in order to be good

Therefore, Luka wouldn't be good in previous eras

Like, guys like Tom Chambers had f.ucking POWER.. He could bang inside and went up with force to finish highly-contested paint shots.. Luka is pure finesse and lacks the rugged physicality and power to be an effective player back then

A 6'7" Danny Ainge isn't too far off, so apparently your intuitive basketball radar is working on some level
.

[superduper]

Sounds like an insecure thread tbh. Kid is doing things no one else was doing at his age and is only going to get better because there's no way he's at his best now granted he doesn't suffer from injuries and has a prolonged career.

He's exactly what teams die for when drafting a player.

It is an insecure thread but he kind of has a point. As a first option superstar of your team it is almost vital to have a lethal mid range game if you want to win it all. He is going to have to develop it for when his 3s arent falling.

[DMAVS41]

Actually, I didn't say anything like that. I simply said that "supporting casts matter" and that "MJ was clearly better than Lebron"...that is all...then you started arguing with a ghost.

Of course there is more to it than stats...you are finally coming around. Unfortunately, this applies to your Mo vs Pippen evaluation as well...and we all know you aren't an honest actor when you make no mention of Pippen also being on the short list of best defender ever. That was my whole point...you can't stay consistent and your reasoning is flawed.

Again, Luka's size and skillset alone automatically make him better than you say. I challenge you to go out into the real world and find one person that legitimately agrees with you that Luka would be a "bum" and clearly worse than a Danny Ainge type player in the 80's/90's...

:cheers:

[DMAVS41]

It is an insecure thread but he kind of has a point. As a first option superstar of your team it is almost vital to have a lethal mid range game if you want to win it all. He is going to have to develop it for when his 3s arent falling.

Not having a mid-range game is absolutely a weakness. This is quite true in my opinion.

However, that doesn't make a player without a solid mid-range game a bum.

Not sure how this isn't obvious to everyone and can't believe it needs mentioning.

[Draz]

It is an insecure thread but he kind of has a point. As a first option superstar of your team it is almost vital to have a lethal mid range game if you want to win it all. He is going to have to develop it for when his 3s arent falling.
Right but he's not even 21. The media and overreaction that he is a superstar is taking away from what he's doing now that superstars deliver in.

I'm not a Mavs fan and genuinely hate them because of Porzingis so I have no reason to vouch for this kid other than give him more time to respond to his weaknesses.

[superduper]

Yeah don't get me wrong the kid is ****ing incredible and is absolutely not a bum but it is a legit hole in his game and if he wants to chase greatness he has to address it. No doubt he can fix it. Kid's a killer.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah don't get me wrong the kid is ****ing incredible and is absolutely not a bum but it is a legit hole in his game and if he wants to chase greatness he has to address it. No doubt he can fix it. Kid's a killer.

I agree to an extent, but I think not calling James Harden "great" would be pretty silly...

And he has that hole in his game as well.

I just think we have to remember that not being one of the 15 or so best players ever...isn't an actual knock on a player.

Like, James Harden isn't perfect. He's not one of the 20 best players ever. However, he is absolutely an all-time great player by any standard and will be a first ballot hall of famer.

If we are going to start saying Harden isn't "great"...then we just have different definitions of the word...

[StrongLurk]

OP lost the moment he made this thread.

[AirBonner]

I have Donthicc as a better 20 year old than MJ ever was. This is a fact

[3ball]

Actually, I didn't say anything like that. I simply said that "supporting casts matter" and that "MJ was clearly better than Lebron"...that is all...then you started arguing with a ghost.

Of course there is more to it than stats...you are finally coming around. Unfortunately, this applies to your Mo vs Pippen evaluation as well...and we all know you aren't an honest actor when you make no mention of Pippen also being on the short list of best defender ever. That was my whole point...you can't stay consistent and your reasoning is flawed.

Again, Luka's size and skillset alone automatically make him better than you say. I challenge you to go out into the real world and find one person that legitimately agrees with you that Luka would be a "bum" and clearly worse than a Danny Ainge type player in the 80's/90's...

:cheers:

Luka can't do this:


https://media.giphy.com/media/lYp2OoYLK7h84/giphy.gif


^^^^ that looks like a simple move but it isn't - Ainge is operating from the pre-dribble, stationary position (triple-threat stance) but uses his OPPOSITE pivot foot to blow by what many feel is the greatest perimeter defender of all-time

So first of all, Luka doesn't make moves from a pre-dribble stationary position - Luka needs a live/existing dribble to make moves, let alone use the opposite pivot foot.. This is an example of why Luka wouldn't be as good back then because these are the types of dribble-efficient moves that work in the mid-range area when there's no spacing - Luka would need 7-10 dribbles to do what Ainge did in 1.... and notice how Ainge must release it early because the trees are WAITING on him - no wide open paint like today's open layup-fest.. Ainge's 1-dribble move was infact POWER move - that's what was needed back then

And btw - pippen wasn't a great defender in 1989, and 09' Lebron had more defensive help than 89' MJ... So Pip's defensive edge over Mo means nothing because the Cavs were making it up elsewhere, while Mo's offensive edge on Pip wasn't being made up elsewhere, except maybe MJ
.

[DMAVS41]

Notice how you are shifting your argument. Now you are just saying that Luka wouldn't be as good back then. You are absolutely right about that...this era is setup for a player like Luka. Completely agree.

If only you ever stopped at a reasonable point.

Like not having a great triple threat game...completely agree it is a weakness.

Not having a solid mid-range game...completely agree it is a weakness.

Unfortunately for you, being 6-7 with Luka's handle, vision, shotmaking, and ability to get to the rim translates to any era...and would have a 0% chance of being considered a "bum" by anyone with a shred of objectivity.

For the last time, I do not care at all about 89 Pippen vs 09 Mo...nor do I care about Lebron vs Jordan. I simply used your own criteria against you to show how inconsistent you are with your arguments.

[3ball]

Notice how you are shifting your argument. Now you are just saying that Luka wouldn't be as good back then. You are absolutely right about that...this era is setup for a player like Luka. Completely agree.

If only you ever stopped at a reasonable point.

Like not having a great triple threat game...completely agree it is a weakness.

Not having a solid mid-range game...completely agree it is a weakness.

Unfortunately for you, being 6-7 with Luka's handle, vision, shotmaking, and ability to get to the rim translates to any era...and would have a 0% chance of being considered a "bum" by anyone with a shred of objectivity.

For the last time, I do not care at all about 89 Pippen vs 09 Mo...nor do I care about Lebron vs Jordan. I simply used your own criteria against you to show how inconsistent you are with your arguments.
You didn't understand the comparison I was making between Mo and Pippen, because you weren't considering all the factors that I was..

2nd options are essentially supplementary role players and covered similarly by defenses with similar impact on brand of ball (none), and similar impact on teammates - i.e. Mo/Pippen don't affect Lebron/MJ's stats, but MJ/Lebron affect theirs and teammates

so the stats of supplementary players can be compared more directly than #1 options, who are covered differently depending on who the #1 option is, and who have the team's brand of ball (and coach) in the palm of their hand, and who affect teammates play differently

I assumed you were considering these pretty intuitive, standard factors when I compared Mo and Pippen's stats... I was shocked that you apparently think you can compare #1 options the same way, without considering the typical #1 option considerations, like defensive coverage, brand, and effect on teammates

Regarding Luka, you can't understand sarcasm?.. you took me literally when I said Luka was a bum?.. it's like when Trump said he was the chosen one - the media is so mindf.ucked by him that they took it literally.. I'm not saying you were mindf.ucked, but taking me literally there is the reaction of someone that's mindf.ucked.. Luka simply lacks the power to be really great back then - compare him to Schrempf - Schrempf had the typical power that good players had back then, which coincides with the type of midrange game/triple threat required to be great back then in the tighter traffic

[DMAVS41]

Keep on backtracking mate.

You aren't consistent and don't understand that others might reject your "other factors"...

Also, if Magic Johnson was playing today you'd be saying his style wouldn't translate.

Watch the games...

[AirFederer]

3Ball taking the stanning too far. Credit where it

[ralph_i_el]

So first of all, Luka doesn't make moves from a pre-dribble stationary position[/B]
.

Wrong.

[imdaman99]

Just because he doesn't take those shots doesn't mean he can't make those. It's just not something that's preached nowadays. It's a layup or 3 league now. Bet you of Jordan was in the league right now, he would be forced to take those as well. Give it up 3ball you lunatic.

[NBAGOAT]

Lukas floater is his in between game and it

[3ball]

Also, if Magic Johnson was playing today you'd be saying his style wouldn't translate.

Watch the games...


Nope.. I've stopped short of insulting your hoops knowledge so far, but if you think Magic plays like Luka, you're a fool - you're the one that needs to watch the games, because you don't know how Magic played

Magic played off Kareem - Kareem was the focal point and the offense ran through him.. That's why the Lakers led the league in assists every single year - Magic wasn't dominating the ball like people think, nor was he the only guy getting assists - EVERYONE was diming on that team and Magic was frequently playing off Kareem.

Furthermore, Magic spent much of his time on the block posting up and playing a physical, bruising game with POWER moves (the baby hook was a power, 1-dribble move; and magic's quick moves on the post where he'd crash into bodies were all power moves).. this type of game was necessary to mitigate the intense defensive traffic associated with no spacing - essentially, the threes/layups allocation wasn't available, so Luka would be f.ucked since he can't play like Magic, Tom Chambers or Schrempf (power, mid-range, post)

You don't seem to understand that the easiest way to play the game is to have 1 ball-handler and 4 shooters - so Luka plays a beginner format of the game that maximizes the stats of ball-handlers, and he wouldn't be nearly as good without it, or having to play the power/post/mid-range game required in Magic's era





You aren't consistent and don't understand that


No, you simply introduced new arguments that I never made - but I don't care - I beat down those arguments too:

Lebron didn't play better in the 09' ECF than MJ in the 89' ECF because MJ faced a lower DRTG in that series (a defensive slugfest), and he faced different coverage (Jordan Rules vs single coverage), and he played a brand that was overachieving versus lebron's underachieving/stat-padding/less effective brand and stats

That explains MJ's lower stats.. So you have no point, didn't refute anything I said, and simply introduced a new argument that you thought you could win (still lost)





others might reject your "other factors"...


Of course you'll reject them if you ignore the opponents that I was referencing (89' Cavs vs 09' Magic), and interject a different team to suit your argument (89' Pistons vs. 09' Magic)

the 89' Cavs were better then the 09' Magic by most metrics (#1 SRS... 3 all-stars plus ron harper), and that was the series I was comparing - MJ beat a better team than the 09' Magic with a worse offensive sidekick and worse team defense.. :confusedshrug:

Maybe if Lebron hadn't shot 30% on jumpers in the 4th quarter and commanded double teams/defensive adjustments, he could've beaten the Magic like he was favored to do, and like MJ always did
.

[AirBonner]

Nope.. I've stopped short of insulting your hoops knowledge so far, but if you think Magic plays like Luka, you're a fool - you're the one that needs to watch the games, because you don't know how Magic played

Magic played off Kareem - Kareem was the focal point and the offense ran through him.. That's why the Lakers led the league in assists every single year - Magic wasn't dominating the ball like people think, nor was he the only guy getting assists - EVERYONE was diming on that team and Magic was frequently playing off Kareem.

Furthermore, Magic spent much of his time on the block posting up and playing a physical, bruising game with POWER moves (the baby hook was a power, 1-dribble move; and magic's quick moves on the post where he'd crash into bodies were all power moves).. this type of game was necessary to mitigate the intense defensive traffic associated with no spacing - essentially, the threes/layups allocation wasn't available, so Luka would be f.ucked since he can't play like Magic, Tom Chambers or Schrempf (power, mid-range, post)

You don't seem to understand that Luka plays in a beginner format of the game that maximizes the stats of ball-handlers.. the easiest way to play the game is to have 1 ball-handler and 4 shooters - that doesn't compare to the advanced format that Magic played, and I don't think Luka would be that good without today's beginner format



No, you simply introduced new arguments that I never made - but I don't care - I beat down those arguments too:

Lebron didn't play better in the 09' ECF than MJ in the 89' ECF because MJ faced a lower DRTG in that series (a defensive series slugfest), and he faced different coverage (Jordan Rules vs single coverage), and he played a brand that was overachieving versus lebron's underachieving/stat-padding/less effective brand anf stats

That explains MJ's lower stats.. So you have no point, didn't refute anything I said, and simply introduced a new argument that you thought you could win (still lost)



Of course you'll reject them if you ignore the opponents that I was referencing (89' Cavs vs 09' Magic), and interject a different team to suit your argument (89' Pistons vs. 09' Magic)

the 89' Cavs were better then the 09' Magic by most metrics (#1 SRS,l... 3 all-stars plus ron harper), and that was the series I was comparing - MJ beat a better team than the 09' Magic with a worse offensive sidekick and worse team defense.. :confusedshrug:

Maybe if Lebron hadn't shot 30% on jumpers in the 4th quarter and commanded double teams/defensive adjustments, he could've beaten the Magic like he was favored to do, and like MJ always did
Donthicc at 20 years old a already a better passer, ball handler, and 3pt shooter than 3rd year MJ

[3ball]

Donthicc at 20 years old a already a better passer, ball handler, and 3pt shooter than 3rd year MJ
donwimp has no POWER

And that's what was needed to be a great player back then, in addition to post and mid-range repertoire (i.e. triple-threat)

Think about Dominique, Jordan, Magic, Chambers, Schrempf - they all played with POWER

[DMAVS41]

No, if Magic played today he wouldn't be doing those things in the post. Are you really this dense? He wouldn't be playing that way. If you can't understand that eras also impact how players play...you are even more ignorant than I thought.

Also, Magic needed a live dribble outside of his post game...and it was about as impactful as anyone outside of maybe 2 or 3 guys on offense ever. You could remove his post game and he'd still be one of the best offensive players ever.

Do you honestly believe that players have no ability to adapt? I swear, you act like Harden would be shooting 25 footers if they weren't worth more points.

So, again, no...you don't make sense.


Again, I never said stats were all that matter. I simply used your own criteria you used to compare Pippen and Mo. You are making my arguments for me by bringing up other stuff. And continue to talk to me as if I ever said anything about Pippen and Mo Williams to begin with...I'll try this again. I do not give a flying **** about comparing those two players in any year.

Regardless, you have conceded your initial claim by pretending you didn't mean it...although, of course, you didn't do this until you got destroyed. Good job.

[DMAVS41]

In previous eras, Luka wouldn't have teammates to spread the floor for him, so he'd need to shoot midrange over crowded paints like everyone else to be a top player - since he sucks at midrange, he'd suck back then...


Take a look at the bold.

So, you admit this is wrong...correct?

[3ball]

No, if Magic played today he wouldn't be doing those things in the post. Are you really this dense? He wouldn't be playing that way. If you can't understand that eras also impact how players play...you are even more ignorant than I thought.


You're making my point because I agree with you

Magic wouldn't be posting up all the time in today's game so his game would suffer, just like Luka wouldn't be playing his finesse threes/layups game back then, so HIS game would suffer

Like you said above - "eras impact how players play."





Also, Magic needed a live dribble outside of his post game...and it was about as impactful as anyone outside of maybe 2 or 3 guys on offense ever. You could remove his post game and he'd still be one of the best offensive players ever.

So, again, no...you don't make sense.


Preposterous

Most of Magic's dribbling in the halfcourt was some form of a post-up

Again, watch the games





Again, I never said stats were all that matter. I simply used your own criteria you used to compare Pippen and Mo. You are making my arguments for me by bringing up other stuff.

Regardless, you have conceded your initial claim. Good job.


Nah, you simply derailed my initial point, cleverly I might add

My initial point was that 09' Lebron had more help on both sides of the ball than 89' MJ, yet his league favorite lost to a weaker team than MJ defeated as the underdog - MJ did more with less

^^^ You couldn't refute this initial argument, so you derailed it by saying "well, if Mo > Pippen due to stats, then 09' lebron played better than 89' MJ in the ECF"...

That's a complete derail because that's a totally different series against a far superior opponent than Lebron faced - and MJ was defended differently than anyone in history, and completely opposite of how Lebron was defended.. furthermore, lebron's team drastically underachieved, which makes his numbers stat-padding, while MJ's team overachieved, so his stats were more effective and not padding

And the sad thing is that your derail was an attempt to defend Lebron!!... who you claim is inferior to MJ, yet you defend him in this spot by derailing?!?!.. weird to say the least, or a closet lebron fan
.

[RRR3]

3ball, you’re just boring at this point. Please stop spamming.

[DMAVS41]

In previous eras, Luka wouldn't have teammates to spread the floor for him, so he'd need to shoot midrange over crowded paints like everyone else to be a top player - since he sucks at midrange, he'd suck back then...


Again. What do you make of this? You have contradicted yourself 3 times on this very point. He's a bum, doesn't know how to play basketball, actually wouldn't be a bum, but would suck?

Do you really not see my point with how inconsistent you are?

As for the Magic stuff. He did not have a great triple threat game like you opined about with Ainge. Magic was not squaring up and just beating his man...and that is the exact thing you'd be claiming he'd need to do if he played in this era. His impact largely came off his live dribble. If Magic played today you'd be saying his style wouldn't translate as well because of how he'd play. You seem to actually agree with this...and if your epistemology is leading you to claim that a player similar to Magic might not bee good in another era...it is flawed.

Here is what my main points have been;

1. Supporting casts matter.

2. Using stats alone isn't enough to compare players.

3. Luka wouldn't be a bum in the 80's or 90's.

You, I honestly can't tell what you think because of rampant contradictions and long tangents not specifically related to anything I've said.

[3ball]

[QUOTE=RRR3]3ball, you

[NBAGOAT]

3ball doesn

[DMAVS41]

Its okay we settled it.. Luka would be a bum in the 80's, just like he was the other night when the Clips took his threes away...

Ultimately, he has no power, or post/mid-range, which were needed to be good in the bruising 80's and 90's

Otoh, Magic wouldn't be as good today because his constant post-ups wouldn't be needed with the spacing available to run more efficient drive-and kicks (for 3-pointers)

Finally, we know that guys like Kobe or MJ had it all - post, mid-range, ball-dominance, shooting, off-ball - they were a rich man's Kawhi, or more athletic Hardens with better scoring versatility... In short... GOAT

Again, I encourage you find anyone that remotely agrees with you that Luka would "suck" in the 80's or 90's...but, just to be clear...you are now changing your tune, yet again, and saying Luka would actually "suck" in those other eras...correct?

Kobe isn't close to GOAT...he's at least a tier or two away from that. Again, I invite you to actually study the history of the game...or just use the criteria you have and apply it consistently.

Good luck arguing with the next ghost you find though.

[tanibanana]

Basically what 3ball want to say is that; Luka is a threat to Jordan in the future, might as well start early to degrade Luka.

[3ball]

Here is what my main points have been;

1. Supporting casts matter.


^^^ yes, you said that in defense of Lebron, when I pointed out that 09' Lebron had more help on both sides of the ball then 89' MJ, but lost as the favorite to a worse team than MJ beat as an underdog

It was a shameless defense of a guy that couldn't command a double-team, and stat-padded according to the opposing coach ("we let him go 1-on-1" - SVG)

And again, Pippen's defensive edge on Mo Williams was more than offset by the Bulls' weaker defensive help overall (no rim protection, unathletic guards, only 1 good rebounder/banger), which resulted in lower-ranked defensive teams than Lebron through the 1st three-peat (until they got rodman in 96').. the bulls were only ranked 7th defensively in the 1st three-peat (so worse than say, Clyde's Blazers)





2. Using stats alone isn't enough to compare players.


Stats are enough to compare role players/2nd options, who are generally covered the same defensively and don't impact brand much (no stat-padding)...

Otoh, #1 options are covered vastly differently depending on who it is, and affect brand of ball significantly (#1 options can stat-pad), so stats aren't enough to compare #1 options





3. Luka wouldn't be a bum in the 80's or 90's.

You, I honestly can't tell what you think because of rampant contradictions and long tangents not specifically related


No long tangents - it's quite simple with Luka - he has no post/triple-threat skills associated with the power game needed to succeed in the bruising 80's and 90's, nor does he have the mid-range skills to shoot over the packed paints back then

So he wouldn't be very good back then.. infact, his softness would be exposed early in his career and he wouldn't develop like he has in today's hands-off, spaced out game (ideal for non-physical ball-handlers)





As for the Magic stuff. .Magic did not have a great triple threat game like you opined about with Ainge.. Magic was not squaring up and just beating his and that is the exact thing you'd be claiming he'd need to do if he played in this era. His impact largely came off his live dribble. If Magic played today you'd be saying his style wouldn't translate as well because of how he'd play. You seem to actually agree with this...and if your epistemology is leading you to claim that a player similar to Magic might not bee good in another era...it is flawed.


Now ur confused - you obviously DON'T need a triple-threat game today because Luka is getting great stats without it..

only the very top winners whose non-ball-dominant ability yields the best teams have triple-threat games (Kawhi, KD)

Otoh, a triple-threat game was needed in previous eras to be good, unless you're an expert on the post like Magic and have the requisite power needed to crash into bodies and consistently finish in heavy traffic
.

[Uncle Drew]

:roll:

Doncic already a threat to Dad Killer and he's yet to turn 21. LeFam wins AGAIN.

[DMAVS41]

1. Actually no, you make another false claim. I posted my "supporting casts matter" to the following;



Ultimately, Lebron only made the playoffs with good teams/high seeds that were seasoned for several years via roster additions and coaching changes (2006), and therefore his carrying ability with truly bad teams is overrated (he missed playoffs with teams that were lottery the year prior - 04', 05, 19' - he wasn't good enough to carry a bad team to a low seed like MJ did and only had high seeds in the playoffs)

So, as usual, you are confused. I made no comment about 89 or 09. My response was actually referencing you and the 1-9 crap. The point was simply that supporting casts matter for everyone. Even for Jordan...again, you go on wild tangents that aren't related...and argue with ghosts.

2. No, stats alone are never enough to compare players as roles can be vastly different...especially true when it comes to players like Pippen who make such a large impact on defense vs a guy that doesn't like Mo. Do you honestly think Iggy can be summed up with his splits/efficiency/ortg like you provided? The answer is of course not. Sorry, you need more than stats...you need more of the analysis you provide when it comes to MJ and Lebron. But, again, you can't stay consistent with your arguments.

3. Luka, like Harden, would clearly be worse in previous eras for some of the reasons you describe. However, there is no universe in which players with the kind of size and skill set they have...let alone with the ability to adapt...would suck. Again, you have absolutely no evidence of this...while there is a ton of evidence against you. Luka is currently doing things that a "bum" could never do...and at an even younger age, he was playing key roles on winning teams in a league that had different rules more akin to the eras you are so fond of. Playing off-ball extremely well...etc. So, no, you are just stating an uninformed opinion backed up nothing other than conjecture.

4. I never said you "need" a triple threat game today. I agreed with you and said that the triple threat game combined with the mid-range game is lacking in most of the players today and it is a legit weakness. My point was that if Magic played today, you'd be arguing that his lack of a face-up and triple threat game would diminish his impact in other eras as you have with Luka. And while Magic would have been worse without his post-game, he absolutely would not have been a "bum" without it. In addition, you should watch Luka play a bit more as he's actually shown some ability to bully smaller players in the post.

5. You have to understand that players play a certain way because of what kind of impact it has. You think Luka just comes up with how he's playing all on his own? No, Rick and the coaches evaluate what he can do combined with what the team can do based on how the game is currently being played...and come up with a plan they think will produce the best results. Currently, with this team, that is clearly having Luka run the show while having the ball in his hands a lot. If, for example, they changed the rules back to the early 00's...yes, he'd be worse, but he'd also adapt. You hate on Nash a lot...and I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but Nash was still a very good player in the toughest defensive era the league has seen back then....and that physicality impacted a player like Nash way more than it would Luka. Luka is actually pretty strong and tough...again, you are pretty uninformed here. This is what is confusing about you...you say he'd be a "bum", say he doesn't know how to play basketball, then say you were joking, then go back to saying he'd "suck"...hard to take you seriously when you can't keep it straight in the span of a couple posts.

[DMAVS41]

Imagine being so deranged that you could watch this kid win in Euroleague, have a great rookie year, and then produce like this while leading this team to the best offense in the league...

And conclude that he's a "bum" and "would suck" in other eras.

Seriously...imagine actually believing that. Not trolling, not just talking in hyperbole like we all do at times. But actually arguing that this kid would be known as a bad player...much worse than Danny Ainge...if he played 30 years ago.

:cheers:

[tontoz]

Haven't read this thread but I am sure it is filled with 3balls typical copy and paste nonsense.

First of all it was just one game. Secondly Luka had 22 points so obviously he can score in more ways than just shooting 3s.

Picking out one game in the course of an 82 game season you can make anyone look bad, including MJ.