As a long time Jordan dickrider I have to admit that Lebron has a good case for GOAT

[ThiccBoi]

LBJ is definitely top 3 all time, with a real shot at GOAT by the time he

[MaxPlayer]

Props for acknowledging reality!

:cheers:

[SpaceJam2]

Dating back to 1960, LeBron ranks 1st in nearly every imaginable playoff stat

Points (1st)
Steals (1st)
Game winners (1st)
Consecutive Conference Finals wins (1st)
Consecutive Finals appearances (1st)
Highest PER rating through the Finals (1st)
Highest Finals game score (1st)
ALSO 2nd highest Finals game score (1st)
Highest 2-game stretch, Finals game score (1st)
Highest 3-game stretch, Finals game score (1st)

The list goes on...Imagine only playing 13 playoffs (many starts played as many or even more) and already having scored 1,000 more points than the SECOND closest guy. It just doesn't compute.

[LAmbruh]

Thiccboi :applause: :roll:

[3ball]

Points (1st)




PPG Playoffs


1) Jordan...... 33.5


2) Iverson..... 29.7
3) West......... 29.1
4) Lebron...... 28.9
5) Durant...... 28.8
6) Barry......... 27.3
7) Elgin......... 27.0
8) Gervin...... 26.5
9 Curry......... 26.0
10) Hakeem.. 25.9


^^^ the gap between 1 and 2 is greater than the gap between 2 and 10 - MJ stands alone as a scorer






Steals (1st)




SPG Playoffs


8) Jordan...... 2.10


26) Lebron.... 1.75






Game winners (1st)



When the game is on the line (shown below), Lebron wins it only 37% of the time, compared to Jordan's 50%, and Lebron wins it 0% in the Finals (0-8), compared to MJ's 50% (4-8)


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-08-2019/eY2j3S.gif



CLUTCH - Playoff shots in last 5 minutes, within 5 points, since 2001



134-323 for Lebron.. 41.4%
108 games.. 3.0 attempts per game

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&player_id=jamesle01&order_by=date_game



Jordan 1997 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals):. 20-39.. 51.3% (11 games)
Jordan 1998 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals):. 22-50.. 44.0% (14 games)

42-89 for MJ.. 47.2%
25 games.. 3.6 attempts per game


TLDR: Old MJ took 20% more clutch shots each game on much better efficiency - old MJ blows lebron away down the stretch of tight games (clutch)






Consecutive Conference Finals wins (1st)



What's better:



LEBRON.... 9 conference Finals wins... 3 Finals wins
JORDAN'... 6 conference Finals wins... 6 Finals wins


Obviously, 3 more Finals wins > 3 more conference finals wins





Consecutive Finals appearances (1st)



What's better:



LEBRON.... 9 conference Finals wins... 3 Finals wins
JORDAN'... 6 conference Finals wins... 6 Finals wins


Obviously, 3 more Finals wins > 3 more conference finals wins






Highest PER rating through the Finals (1st)



What's better:



LEBRON.... 32.2 PER... lost by record amount
JORDAN.... 32.0 PER... won championship


:facepalm





Highest 2-game stretch, Finals game score (1st)
Highest 3-game stretch, Finals game score (1st)


Jordan averaged 48/10/6 from games 2-4 of the 93' Finals - this is unmatched in basketball history


Career Finals Stats

JORDAN.... 33.6 ppg.. 48.0 fg.. 36.8 3P.... 6.0 rpg.. 6.0 apg.. 2.8 tov
LEBRON.... 28.2 ppg.. 47.1 fg.. 34.2 3P.. 10.0 rpg.. 7.7 apg.. 4.3 tov


MJ scored 5 more ppg on better efficiency, lower turnovers, superior clutch, and superior winning

[SamuraiSWISH]

Dating back to 1960, LeBron ranks 1st in nearly every imaginable playoff stat

Points (1st)
Steals (1st)
Game winners (1st)
Consecutive Conference Finals wins (1st)
Consecutive Finals appearances (1st)
Highest PER rating through the Finals (1st)
Highest Finals game score (1st)
ALSO 2nd highest Finals game score (1st)
Highest 2-game stretch, Finals game score (1st)
Highest 3-game stretch, Finals game score (1st)

The list goes on...Imagine only playing 13 playoffs (many starts played as many or even more) and already having scored 1,000 more points than the SECOND closest guy. It just doesn't compute.
Man all of those stats must have absolutely lead to the most championships possible too :eek: :applause:

[Manny98]

The 2016 finals cemented him in the top 3 and put him in the GOAT discussion

If he gets one more + FMVP he's the GOAT

[3ball]

The 2016 finals cemented him in the top 3 and put him in the GOAT discussion

If he gets one more + FMVP he's the GOAT


Is that because he beat a 73-win team?

Because that means Dwight Howard > MJ

since MJ never beat a 66-win team like Dwight did

It's just bad logic, and Kawhi proved that beating Curry/Klay/Dray is easy - that core is only 8-10 in the Finals - everyone beats them..

ultimately, those guys can barely dunk and are just a 3-point gimmick that get figured out, and ultimately need a stud like KD to be a winning Finals team

[Shogon]

Right now I don't think so, but I mean... is he top 5? Yep.

If LeBron gets another title and he gets the all time scoring record? That'll be tough to overlook. He absolutely will get the scoring record unless he gets hurt.

Being the GOAT is more about sustained level of play than it is peak play, cause otherwise Shaq would be the GOAT.

BTW, I have Bill Russell as the GOAT, but that's another discussion I suppose.

[3ball]

I have Bill Russell as the GOAT


In Russell's era, the lack of 3-point line and spacing prevented good team offense/team ORtg's, which allowed a 1-way defender like Russell to win the most.

But since the 3-point line began in 1980, all 40 league MVP's were dominant offensive players, which means Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber in the modern era... He'd be a Ben Wallace, nothing more.

Accordingly, Jordan's 6 rings as "the man" is the modern goat standard, while 2nd place has only 3 rings as "the man" (kareem, magic, shaq, lebron).. And Jordan's 2 three-peats is also the goat standard because peak shaq only got 1, while Kobe/Lebron/KD failed to get 1

I believe that people like you simply have Jordan-fatigue, so you irrationally rank others ahead of him... but ultimately, no one is near MJ... MJ is the clear-cut goat, which all the polls also show.






Being the GOAT is more about sustained level of play


MJ was MVP-caliber for longer (88-98'), whereas Lebron hasn't won MVP in 7 years.. a 7-year drought of MVP's

Ultimately, MJ sustained a better level from 85-98' than Lebron - that's 13 years and a long enough period of "sustained play", as you termed it... and 6 Finals victories in 8 years is superior to Lebron's conference finals victory streak.. MJ's 3 extra Finals wins > Lebron's 3 extra conference finals wins






peak play, cause otherwise Shaq would be the GOAT.



Jordan's peak is better than Shaq's peak:


Jordan 91-93' vs. Shaq 00'-02'


REGULAR SEASON

MJ:..'.. 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq:. 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ:..'.. 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq:. 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ:... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft... played #5, #3, #9 defenses... beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd


(steals and blocks cancel out, along with rebounds and assists)



MJ had the higher peak hands down ... :confusedshrug:






If LeBron gets another title and he gets the all time scoring record?


Another title would give him 4, so still 2 shy of the goat modern era total (6)

why would 2 less titles make him goat?.. makes no sense... don't tell me that he beat a 73-win team because that would make Dwight Howard and Baron Davis > MJ (MJ never beat 66 and 67-win teams like Dwight or Baron Davis did).. so it's just bad critieria

and the all-time scoring record is just longevity - MJ averaged way more ppg, with better efficiency rating and efficiency per possession

ultimately, the goat needs goat winning as "the man", goat stats, and goat dominance/peak - only MJ is goat in all these areas.
.

[Walk on Water]

And not one thing was said about defense. You cannot get away from that either. Jordan is the better scorer and defender. And winner. And plays in a better system. How does this not register? Being better at being the system and not having help is not better than being better on a better system.

Longevity is the only case. If you take Kobe’s best 5 years, he averaged more points than James and was the better defender. Peak Kobe and peak Mike are both better than LeBron.

[SpaceJam2]

Jordan and LeBron both played 13 playoffs yet LeBron has more stats in every category than MJ and did not play mechanics and shoe salesmen.

It's over

[72-10]

As someone who has never ridden Jordan's dick, there is no way that LeBron is even top 3 all time - in fact he's probably not top 10

[SpaceJam2]

Dating back to 1960, LeBron ranks 1st in nearly every imaginable playoff stat

Points (1st)
Steals (1st)
Game winners (1st)
Consecutive Conference Finals wins (1st)
Consecutive Finals appearances (1st)
Highest PER rating through the Finals (1st)
Highest Finals game score (1st)
ALSO 2nd highest Finals game score (1st)
Highest 2-game stretch, Finals game score (1st)
Highest 3-game stretch, Finals game score (1st)

The list goes on...Imagine only playing 13 playoffs (many starts played as many or even more) and already having scored 1,000 more points than the SECOND closest guy. It just doesn't compute.


OUCH...Plus:

This feels like it's 2016 again when LBJ lead all players in all major statistical categories. Only this time he's doing it against Jordan :eek:

LeBron shoots a better pecentage from 2
LeBron shoots a better pecentage from 3
He has a higher FG%, eFG%, and TS%
He has a better AST%, TRB%, BPG%, and a lower USG%

MJ scores more points, but also has a higher USG% and a higher FT%

With advanced metrics, both in the regular season and playoffs, it gets even worse for Jordan

https://i.postimg.cc/52mBwW6h/LBJ-vs-MJ-complete.png

LeBron leads MJ in: Win Shares, TS%, TRB%, AST%, BLK%, OWS, DWS, OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP

MJ leads in: FT%, and STL%

LeBron also has slightly more turnovers, but a better assist-to-turnover ratio, so boom roasted there too:

https://i.postimg.cc/dtxCbRZN/a2toratio.png

It's just not. even. close. And some have been fooled for a long time, but not I.

https://i.postimg.cc/0jKSQL7M/LeBron_1st.png

Can we please stop thinking Jordan is better now? LeBron crushes him in almost every category and if you look at total playoff stats it's a LANDSLIDE victory, with nearly 1000 more points and double the rebounds.

[Walk on Water]

OUCH...Plus:

This feels like it's 2016 again when LBJ lead all players in all major statistical categories. Only this time he's doing it against Jordan :eek:

LeBron shoots a better pecentage from 2
LeBron shoots a better pecentage from 3
He has a higher FG%, eFG%, and TS%
He has a better AST%, TRB%, BPG%, and a lower USG%

MJ scores more points, but also has a higher USG% and a higher FT%

With advanced metrics, both in the regular season and playoffs, it gets even worse for Jordan

https://i.postimg.cc/52mBwW6h/LBJ-vs-MJ-complete.png

LeBron leads MJ in: Win Shares, TS%, TRB%, AST%, BLK%, OWS, DWS, OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP

MJ leads in: FT%, and STL%

LeBron also has slightly more turnovers, but a better assist-to-turnover ratio, so boom roasted there too:

https://i.postimg.cc/dtxCbRZN/a2toratio.png

It's just not. even. close. And some have been fooled for a long time, but not I.

https://i.postimg.cc/0jKSQL7M/LeBron_1st.png

Can we please stop thinking Jordan is better now? LeBron crushes him in almost every category and if you look at total playoff stats it's a LANDSLIDE victory, with nearly 1000 more points and double the rebounds.



Jordan was the better scorer and defender and winner. There

[3ball]

Jordan and LeBron both played 13 playoffs yet LeBron has more stats in every category than MJ and did not play mechanics and shoe salesmen.

It's over

MJ beats Lebron in per game stats, including:



PPG, OREB, SPG, lower TO, PER, WS/48, ORtg, plus-minus, FT%, scoring burden



Lebron leads in less important categories like:



APG, DREB, BPG, VORP, BPM, TS


So MJ wins in stats... MJ also leads in clutch %, clutch frequency, and overall clutch stats, along with jumpshooting efficiency and double-teams... :eek:

[DMAVS41]

I don't fully agree with the list, but the Backpicks rankings remain the most objective analysis of how good at basketball the best players were.

https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

MJ #3
Lebron #2

[SpaceJam2]

I don't fully agree with the list, but the Backpicks rankings remain the most objective analysis of how good at basketball the best players were.

https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

MJ #3
Lebron #2

:eek: Goodness

[SpaceJam2]

[QUOTE=Walk on Water]Jordan was the better scorer and defender and winner. There

[3ball]

I don't fully agree with the list, but the Backpicks rankings remain the most objective analysis of how good at basketball the best players were.

https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

MJ #3
Lebron #2
winning a ring as "the man" defined the careers of dirk and wade, while guys like kobe were nothing until he won as "the man" - it's simply the biggest accomplishment in basketball.

So MJ's 6 rings as "the man" is the goat achievement of the modern era (2nd place only has 3) - and his 2 three-peats also top peak-Shaq (1 three-peat), and Kobe/KD/Lebron (failed to 3-peat)

Ultimately, Jordan's 6 rings as "the man", while being the PPG and efficiency rating leader is unmatched... Backpick's arguments cannot top this

[DMAVS41]

winning a ring as "the man" defined the careers of dirk and wade, while guys like kobe were nothing until he won as "the man" - it's simply the biggest accomplishment in basketball.

So MJ's 6 rings as "the man" is the goat achievement of the modern era (2nd place only has 3) - and his 2 three-peats also top peak-Shaq (1 three-peat), and Kobe/KD/Lebron (failed to 3-peat)

Ultimately, Jordan's 6 rings as "the man", while being the PPG and efficiency rating leader is unmatched... Backpick's arguments cannot top this

I agree that we shouldn't ignore those achievements and you know I have MJ over Lebron.

However, his statistical analysis is far better than anything you present here.

So why don't you stop spamming us with a bunch of bullshit every day and just admit that Lebron is one of the best players ever all things considered...but think Jordan is better because of his accomplishments and peak.

Seriously...can you just adopt some form of reasonable opinions so we don't have to logon and see you doing this crap over and over and over again?

[3ball]

I agree that we shouldn't ignore those achievements and you know I have MJ over Lebron.

However, his statistical analysis is far better than anything you present here.

So why don't you stop spamming us with a bunch of bullshit every day and just admit that Lebron is one of the best players ever all things considered...but think Jordan is better because of his accomplishments and peak.

Seriously...can you just adopt some form of reasonable opinions so we don't have to logon and see you doing this crap over and over and over again?
they don't know how to interpret the stats or what they mean - the analysis is trash

and I haven't seen any statistical analysis that includes stats like jumpshooting efficiency, double-teams attracted, clutch stats... or time of possession, or teammate maximization, or stat-padding (stats in big losses)

backpicks doesn't understand the game at this level and their analysis is garbage..

[72-10]

well, he (backpicks) did provide pretty impressive evidence of why Kareem's statistical production and efficiency contributes more to a win than Michael's

yeah, that's a convincing argument

[DMAVS41]

they don't know how to interpret the stats or what they mean - the analysis is trash

and I haven't seen any statistical analysis that includes stats like jumpshooting efficiency, double-teams attracted, clutch stats... or time of possession, or teammate maximization, or stat-padding (stats in big losses)

backpicks doesn't understand the game at this level and their analysis is garbage..

Ok dude.

At some point you'll need to have the realization how absurd some of these "takes" you have are.

[3ball]

well, he (backpicks) did provide pretty impressive evidence of why Kareem's statistical production and efficiency contributes more to a win than Michael's

yeah, that's a convincing argument
what was their argument

tell it to me now, or I'm going to assume that you don't understand what you read

[3ball]

well, he (backpicks) did provide pretty impressive evidence of why Kareem's statistical production and efficiency contributes more to a win than Michael's


I'm still waiting for you to summarize the argument for me

if you can't, then I'm going to assume you don't understand what you read.

I'm going to pick up a pizza - when I get back, I expect to see something.. clock is ticking

[72-10]

I'm still waiting for you to summarize the argument for me

if you can't, then I'm going to assume you don't understand what you read.

I'm going to pick up a pizza - when I get back, I expect to see something.. clock is ticking

this sounds like some Darrell Allums

look, his stat output in 1975-76 was convincing enough for him to win league MVP and his team didn't even make the playoff field

Kareem was great on both ends of the floor, two-way player, just like MJ, but considering that he anchored a defense and altered shots more than MJ, his defensive impact was just as significant as MJ's despite often not making the first team at the center pos

I admit though it still doesn't account for tangibles which MJ's got in the bag, all of those finer skills and facets that go into being a shooting guard

i.e. Kareem could always get his shot, but MJ could score from more parts of the floor

and MJ was better at scoring on doubles and triples than Kareem was

sure Kareem could hit a three-point hook shot on occassion

but MJ was gold everywhere from 20 feet in

[Walk on Water]

He was literally worse in both :lol

LBJ > MJ

Try again


You have no case.

[DMAVS41]

this sounds like some Darrell Allums

look, his stat output in 1975-76 was convincing enough for him to win league MVP and his team didn't even make the playoff field

Kareem was great on both ends of the floor, two-way player, just like MJ, but considering that he anchored a defense and altered shots more than MJ, his defensive impact was just as significant as MJ's despite often not making the first team at the center pos

I admit though it still doesn't account for tangibles which MJ's got in the bag, all of those finer skills and facets that go into being a shooting guard

i.e. Kareem could always get his shot, but MJ could score from more parts of the floor

sure Kareem could hit a three-point hook shot on occassion

but MJ was gold everywhere from 20 feet in

The main argument, in my opinion, for Kareem would be one based on longevity.

[bullettooth]

He doesn't though. Something about those 6 finals losses, of which were sweeps just won't age well. LeBron's legacy is OVER.

[72-10]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MINI!!!!!.jpg

[Micku]

I don't like actual rankings really. I prefer tiers.
And I feel like LeBron James has been up there to the MJ tiers for a while.

What got me is his longevity and his versatility. I don't think he is that versatile on the scoring side like MJ, KD, Kobe, and Bird. But you still won't be able to stop him from finishing. On the pure offensive side, he could play point, go to the post (not as often), or be a drive and kick guy.

I do think MJ accomplish more during his time. He dominated the league.

LeBron didn't quite dominate the league like MJ. Some of that is bad luck, but some it's his own fault. Like he created the superteam era with the Miami Heat. KD just up staged him with it. And LeBron's superteams I felt never lived up to their potential. It was a mixture of things. Injuries, chemistry, coaching, playstyles conflicting. Anyway, he just wasn't as dominant. He has the stats, he destroyed the east. Some of his 2016-2018 final stats is either on par or better than MJ stats in 91-93. He had some impressive runs in the playoffs. 2015, 2016, and 2018 were amazing, despite not winning it all.

But due to not winning it all, I would say he didn't do it as good as MJ. The eras were different tho. GSW is better than any team the Bulls faced themselves, but I think some of MJ teams could give them a challenge similar to how the Thunder did. But that's matchups, and I'm not considering the rules. Things changed.

LeBron had a string of bad luck for a few years. 2011 was bad and it was his fault. 2013 he almost did another 2011. But his second Cavs years, he just meet a better team. KD going to the GSW really messed things up, but again, LeBron started it by going to the Heat. KD just did it worse/better.

Despite his run ins with the GSW, it's been a pleasure watching him play. I wish that his game was as polish as Kobe or MJ when it comes to footwork, mid range jumpers, post and be better at FT line. But he doesn't need it since he is so athletic. With Kobe, he just take bad shots. LeBron hardly takes any. But he doesn't have as many scoring moves as KD and MJ did/does.

But because of that, I feel like LeBron could been even better.

Defensively he's been up and down tho. He isn't as lockdown as Kobe or MJ, but he is really good. More versatile.

Again, it's been a pleasure so far of watching LeBron. If ppl say he's the best ever, I won't really argue that much against it. Although I don't think so. I don't believe there is because it's so subjective. Are we discussing peak vs peak? Accomplishments? Stats? What you accomplish during your prime? Overall career? Many ppl take certain categories more importantly than others.

But if you ask me, there are list of players that are on a tier of their own. LeBron is one of them. I don't think he is the GOAT, but I don't think any one player is the GOAT. The fact ppl say he has a case for the GOAT to me just shows he belongs in that tier of select few.

GOAT topics are just fun to debate. Unfortunately it sparks so many trolls and ppl using numbers without context or knowing what they mean. Numbers don't lie, but ppl can use numbers to deceive you a bit. But it's cool to have a nice chat about who played ball better, even though I feel like the truth is more like player a could be the best player in this era while player b is the best player in this era. Meanwhile player c could have the best peak. But player d is the best one on one player, and player e is the beat team player. All of them do things that are great and necessary better than other, but if fit in this situation they all can be effective.

[FKAri]

I don't like actual rankings really. I prefer tiers.
And I feel like LeBron James has been up there to the MJ tiers for a while.

What got me is his longevity and his versatility. I don't think he is that versatile on the scoring side like MJ, KD, Kobe, and Bird. But you still won't be able to stop him from finishing. On the pure offensive side, he could play point, go to the post (not as often), or be a drive and kick guy.

I do think MJ accomplish more during his time. He dominated the league.

LeBron didn't quite dominate the league like MJ. Some of that is bad luck, but some it's his own fault. Like he created the superteam era with the Miami Heat. KD just up staged him with it. And LeBron's superteams I felt never lived up to their potential. It was a mixture of things. Injuries, chemistry, coaching, playstyles conflicting. Anyway, he just wasn't as dominant. He has the stats, he destroyed the east. Some of his 2016-2018 final stats is either on par or better than MJ stats in 91-93. He had some impressive runs in the playoffs. 2015, 2016, and 2018 were amazing, despite not winning it all.

But due to not winning it all, I would say he didn't do it as good as MJ. The eras were different tho. GSW is better than any team the Bulls faced themselves, but I think some of MJ teams could give them a challenge similar to how the Thunder did. But that's matchups, and I'm not considering the rules. Things changed.

LeBron had a string of bad luck for a few years. 2011 was bad and it was his fault. 2013 he almost did another 2011. But his second Cavs years, he just meet a better team. KD going to the GSW really messed things up, but again, LeBron started it by going to the Heat. KD just did it worse/better.

Despite his run ins with the GSW, it's been a pleasure watching him play. I wish that his game was as polish as Kobe or MJ when it comes to footwork, mid range jumpers, post and be better at FT line. But he doesn't need it since he is so athletic. With Kobe, he just take bad shots. LeBron hardly takes any. But he doesn't have as many scoring moves as KD and MJ did/does.

But because of that, I feel like LeBron could be even better.

Defensively he's been up and down tho. He isn't as lockdown as Kobe or MJ, but he is really good. More versatile.

Again, it's been a pleasure so far of watching LeBron. If ppl say he's the best ever, I won't really argue that much against it. Although I don't think so. I don't believe there is because it's so subjective. Are we discussing peak vs peak? Accomplishments? Stats? What you accomplish during your prime? Overall career? Many ppl take certain categories more importantly than others.

But if you ask me, there are list of players that are on a tier of their own. LeBron is one of them. I don't think he is the GOAT, but I don't think any one player is the GOAT. The fact ppl say he has a case for the GOAT to me just shows he belongs in that tier of select few.

GOAT topics are just fun to debate. Unfortunately it sparks so many trolls and ppl using numbers without context or knowing what they mean. Numbers don't lie, but ppl can use numbers to deceive you a bit. But it's cool to have a nice chat about who played ball better, even though I feel like the truth is more like player a could be the best player in this era while player b is the best player in this era. Meanwhile player c could have the best peak. But player d is the best one on one player, and player e is the beat team player. All of them do things that are great and necessary better than other, but if fit in this situation they all can be effective.
I think a lot of people feel this way. Including some who argue with each other everyday on ISH despite disagreeing with each other's semantics.

[3ball]

this sounds like some Darrell Allums



Here's some problems with the backpicks' analysis.


1) He doesn't account for how style of play impacts teams - teams that use a 1-ball-dominator approach (nash-ball, cp3-ball, harden-ball, lebron-ball) fall off more when they lose that ball-dominator than teams that move the ball more.. But teams that move the ball more have higher ceilings and win more in general with or without the star player (see the current raptors, the spurs without duncan, etc)

So he erroneously thinks that a team falling off a cliff without a ball-dominator means the ball-dominator impacts championship odds more, without realizing that the ceiling of ball-dominator teams generally falls below championship level.. So a ball-dominator whose team falls off without him isn't impacting championship odds more because the team's ceiling is inherently lower with the 1 ball-dominator approach, but backpicks is obviously ignorant of this fact.


2) His analysis lacks official data that I unearthed, and that official data flies in the face of the hand-recorded data that he claims to have personally done.. He claims to have recorded data that shows 96' Pippen had higher net on/off than peak Jordan from 1991-1993 - this is all from sample data that he supposedly hand-recorded.. The problem is that official data that I unearthed from old Philadelphia media guides and posted with Flpiii here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354914) and on re.algm (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=344&t=1343246) show that 96' Jordan set the record for plus-minus with a +980, or 81 points higher than 96' Pippen.. So backpicks is claiming that 96' Pippen had better on-off than peak Jordan from 91-93', without realizing that 96' Jordan had much higher plus-minus than 96' Pippen.. So something is off in his so-called hand-recorded sample data - it seems highly unlikely that 96' Pippen and 96' Jordan had higher on-off than peak 91-93' Jordan.. Ultimately, I don't trust his number and he offers zero backup for his graphs.


3) He posts a bunch of video showing Jordan taking "bad" shots, but then says that Jordan's early teams had little offensive help and therefore those early seasons represent some of the best carry-jobs of all time... So which is it - shot-jacking or carry jobs?.. Backpicks wants it both ways and falls into the common MJ-hate trap - MJ is knocked for being a shot-jacker that Phil reigned in, when in reality the Bulls needed him to take all those shots when they had no offensive help - naturally, he took less shots once Pippen developed into a viable offensive player.. Backpicks also says that MJ was an off-ball player with elite footwork and fundamentals from his early days in the league - but in the next breath they knock him for being an unsound shot-jacker, despite already saying that his cast required him to shot-jack until about 1990.


4) The positive things that he says about Jordan essentially say that he's goat.. How could Jordan not be the goat considering these things that Backpicks says:



"Historians have mislabeled Wilt as the game’s most “dominant” scorer, but that epitaph should belong to Jordan. He holds the highest pace-adjusted scoring rate in NBA history and six of the nine highest-scoring rates of all time. He litters the record book with more high-efficiency, high-volume seasons than anyone:"

"Among the Big 4 box dimensions — scoring rate, efficiency relative to league average (rTS), box creation and adjusted turnover percentage — Jordan stands above the pack. He is the only player with three-year averages in all of those categories above the 85th percentile historically."


And Backpicks ultimately says that MJ has the #1 peak, but isn't #1 career-wise due to longevity - longevity is the only reason they don't have MJ as #1:



"If MJ’s injured seasons followed his valuations curve, he would have a strong argument for No. 1, and if his hypothetical 1994 season followed the curve, he would likely be No. 1 on this list. While I can see giving him slightly more credit, he could only finish first with his current longevity if I viewed his peak as an outlier among outliers, and neither box metrics nor non-box data support that idea. If anything, they suggest Jordan’s GOAT peak status isn’t unassailable, which means there’s also an argument for him dropping back a slot. Therefore, he’s my highest peak player, but falls short in career value to Abdul-Jabbar, landing at No. 2."


5) He claims that the analysis decides who would add the most to a team's championship odds, yet he chooses Kareem as goat due to longevity.. And Kareem is a guy who missed the playoffs for basically the entire 70's.. So Kareem wasn't adding to a team's championship odds at any kind of goat level and infact needed super PG's Magic or Oscar to find synergies and have a great team (similar to AD).


6) Backpicks claims to evaluate the increase in championship odds by a player regardless of cast - this is impossible to assess even with the data we have available to us now, let alone the tiny samples of adjusted plus-minus that he claims to have done by hand.. Quotes like the following make me disregard his entire analysis:



"From 1985-88, he (Jordan) created shots for teammates only slightly more than he passed them over (6 plays per 100, in line with his traditional box creation estimate).3 His wild forays into multiple defenders yielded a woeful efficiency of 0.59 points per attempt on such plays"


How in the world would he know this kind of information?.. Based on some tiny sample that he did by hand?.. You can't post data like this without showing your work and proving the numbers in some kind of way, either by having other people verify your work in some official capacity, or at least specifying exactly which games you watched, so others can verify your data independently.. I don't see anywhere in the analysis where he says the data is backed by any reputable source like 538 or nylon calculus.

Secondly, how can you incorporate this data into the ultimate conclusion of who increases championship odds more?.. Ultimately, it's his own subjective formula, with subjective criteria and subjective weights assigned to those criteria... In other words, bullshit..

Ultimately, using sheer eye test and logic to determine the goat is a better analysis, and then finding stats to back up that logic.. For example, we see how MJ's off-ball game helped teammates grow (and Backpicks agrees), so we can then point to guys like pippen/grant/bj, who grew by leaps and bounds next to MJ - they grew from single-digit rookies to all-star caliber by the time MJ retired the first time.. No other player in history had to grow single-digit rookies into champions to win - only MJ had to win this way, and only his game allowed it (low hold-time and turnovers with the goat combination of volume and efficiency - his goat scoring load allowed him to win a lot with the least help, while his low hold-time allowed that minimal cast to grow).. :confusedshrug:
.

[Da_Realist]

Backpicks came off biased for LeBron and it not only ruined his analysis for LeBron (positively) but also MJ(negatively). Had he evaluated LeBron without the rose-colored glasses like he did say Oscar Robertson there is no way LeBron would have been ranked so high.

LeBron is not as good as MJ was. Only the numbers make it look like they're close but that's because LeBron is a stat machine not because he's as good. LeBron has never ever reached the level where he seems unbeatable. Whether he had Wade or not, whether he was in his prime or not, he always seems like he could lose and a lot of cases it seems like he would lose. Every game I either expect him to lose or wouldn't be surprised if he did. I fully expect him to screw up this year. He was gifted with more talent than anyone else in the league but I still expect him to lose somehow. There is not now and never has been an air of invincibility with LeBron. All the greats I love have had a period where it seems like they could not be beaten: Bird (mid 80's), Magic (late 80's), Olajuwon (mid 90's) and MJ. Racking up a bunch of stats doesn't give you that. You need to be on a mental level far greater than all your competitors to reach that level. LeBron's never had it and never will. His box scores look great though.

[Manny98]

I don't fully agree with the list, but the Backpicks rankings remain the most objective analysis of how good at basketball the best players were.

https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

MJ #3
Lebron #2
Backpicks list is good i enjoy their basketball analysis on the thinking basketball YouTube channel

The consensus top 3 players are Kareem,LeBron and MJ and they can go in pretty much any order

^ I see the Backpicks list got Jordan stans feeling a type of way :oldlol:

[SwayDizzle]

No jordan fan refers to themselves as a jordan dickrider

[Shaquille O'Neal]

List of players MJ stopped from getting a ring (i.e. beat directly) in the 1990's:


Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Gary Payton
Patrick Ewing
Magic Johnson (I said in the 90's)
Shawn Kemp
Reggie Miller
Mark Jackson


List of players Lebron allowed to get a ring (i.e. beat him directly) from 2008 - 2018:
Dirk Nowitski
Kawhi Leonard
Tim Duncan
Jason Terry
Steph Curry (x3)
Kevin Durant (x2)
Andre Igudoula (x3)
Klay Thompson (x3)
Manu Ginobli
Paul Pierce
Kevin Garnett
Ray Allen


So one dude beat all the best, one dude got beat by basically everyone; many multiple times.


But...please move forward if facts like this don't mean anything to you.

[DMAVS41]

So I'm confused.

You say that the Backpicks analysis was garbage and that he doesn't know basketball.

But, he ranked MJ as the best player ever in terms of peak play and impact...and only isn't number 1 because of longevity like you point out.

So if his analysis is garbage...and that analysis led to concluding that MJ had the highest impact ever when on court...

Are you saying that the conclusion that MJ had the highest peak ever is a garbage conclusion?

:confusedshrug:

[FKAri]

So I'm confused.

You say that the Backpicks analysis was garbage and that he doesn't know basketball.

But, he ranked MJ as the best player ever in terms of peak play and impact...and only isn't number 1 because of longevity like you point out.

So if his analysis is garbage...and that analysis led to concluding that MJ had the highest impact ever when on court...

Are you saying that the conclusion that MJ had the highest peak ever is a garbage conclusion?

:confusedshrug:
Flawed reasoning. Is someone with poor analysis incapable of getting something right?

[DMAVS41]

Flawed reasoning. Is someone with poor analysis incapable of getting something right?

Of course not.

But if one is arguing that they don't know basketball and the analysis is terrible...

I think more often than not, the conclusions reached will not be reliable or accurate.

[egokiller]

The 2016 finals cemented him in the top 3 and put him in the GOAT discussion

If he gets one more + FMVP he's the GOAT

Beating a 2016 injured team didn't cement anything. :oldlol:

If anything, it showcased how bad he is since he froze up in the final 4 minutes of game 7 contributing only a single shaky FT. Kyrie ended the game.

[paksat]

lol this forum has become nothing but 3 ball clowning people

[red1]

lol this forum has become nothing but 3 ball clowning people
what? 3ball is possibly the single most delusional poster in the history of the board :oldlol:

[72-10]

I don't know how a Kareem vs. MJ debate stirred up in this thread but it did

[Mr. Jabbar]

Hey thinboi.... lebron is already goat, GAGOAT actually. And by a pretty wide, comfortable, and thicc margin.

[Tobio-Star]

Everyone that watches Basketball knows LeBron will be the GOAT when it's all said and done. When he is gonna 3peat, Jordan will finally be exposed for the fraud he is

[72-10]

I don't like actual rankings really. I prefer tiers.
And I feel like LeBron James has been up there to the MJ tiers for a while.

What got me is his longevity and his versatility. I don't think he is that versatile on the scoring side like MJ, KD, Kobe, and Bird. But you still won't be able to stop him from finishing. On the pure offensive side, he could play point, go to the post (not as often), or be a drive and kick guy.

I do think MJ accomplish more during his time. He dominated the league.

LeBron didn't quite dominate the league like MJ. Some of that is bad luck, but some it's his own fault. Like he created the superteam era with the Miami Heat. KD just up staged him with it. And LeBron's superteams I felt never lived up to their potential. It was a mixture of things. Injuries, chemistry, coaching, playstyles conflicting. Anyway, he just wasn't as dominant. He has the stats, he destroyed the east. Some of his 2016-2018 final stats is either on par or better than MJ stats in 91-93. He had some impressive runs in the playoffs. 2015, 2016, and 2018 were amazing, despite not winning it all.

But due to not winning it all, I would say he didn't do it as good as MJ. The eras were different tho. GSW is better than any team the Bulls faced themselves, but I think some of MJ teams could give them a challenge similar to how the Thunder did. But that's matchups, and I'm not considering the rules. Things changed.

LeBron had a string of bad luck for a few years. 2011 was bad and it was his fault. 2013 he almost did another 2011. But his second Cavs years, he just meet a better team. KD going to the GSW really messed things up, but again, LeBron started it by going to the Heat. KD just did it worse/better.

Despite his run ins with the GSW, it's been a pleasure watching him play. I wish that his game was as polish as Kobe or MJ when it comes to footwork, mid range jumpers, post and be better at FT line. But he doesn't need it since he is so athletic. With Kobe, he just take bad shots. LeBron hardly takes any. But he doesn't have as many scoring moves as KD and MJ did/does.

But because of that, I feel like LeBron could been even better.

Defensively he's been up and down tho. He isn't as lockdown as Kobe or MJ, but he is really good. More versatile.

Again, it's been a pleasure so far of watching LeBron. If ppl say he's the best ever, I won't really argue that much against it. Although I don't think so. I don't believe there is because it's so subjective. Are we discussing peak vs peak? Accomplishments? Stats? What you accomplish during your prime? Overall career? Many ppl take certain categories more importantly than others.

But if you ask me, there are list of players that are on a tier of their own. LeBron is one of them. I don't think he is the GOAT, but I don't think any one player is the GOAT. The fact ppl say he has a case for the GOAT to me just shows he belongs in that tier of select few.

GOAT topics are just fun to debate. Unfortunately it sparks so many trolls and ppl using numbers without context or knowing what they mean. Numbers don't lie, but ppl can use numbers to deceive you a bit. But it's cool to have a nice chat about who played ball better, even though I feel like the truth is more like player a could be the best player in this era while player b is the best player in this era. Meanwhile player c could have the best peak. But player d is the best one on one player, and player e is the beat team player. All of them do things that are great and necessary better than other, but if fit in this situation they all can be effective.

I've never seen someone whose first language wasn't English be so capable of writing walls of text.

[3ball]

the goat must be an elite shooter - lebron isn't

the goat must have an invincible scoring aura - lebron doesn't

the goat's skillset must allow the best brand of team ball/ball movement, which allows the best teams - lebron's skillset (ball-dominator) fails to do this and results in weaker teams than the best

the goat must have goat-level winning, stats, and accolades - lebron lacks goat winning and accolades