Super advanced stats are not always necessary to determine whose better

[Walk on Water]

Jordan had more scoring titles, defensive awards and rings. He had all the important things. He averaged more points, played better D and won more titles. Nothing else really needs to be discussed. Jordan is the best player to have ever lived and we should honor that.

I don

[3ball]

Jordan owns the advanced stats too:

He set the record for plus-minus in 1996 (before Curry broke the mark in 2016)

and only Jordan is top 2 in all four advanced stats: PER, VORP, BPM, and WS/48

So he owns plus-minus and the 4 advanced stats, while owning the raw stats (ppg)

[Walk on Water]

The arguments Lebron fans make sound like they are reaching. Things like total career rebounds, assists, finals losses and appearances, etc..

[DMAVS41]

Often people are talking across points.

Essentially ranking players usually comes down to 2 different camps.

Camp 1 wants almost exclusively talk about peak play...just simply...who was the best player on the court in their best years.

Camp 2 wants to talk more about a career ranking...that factors in statistical records and weighs longevity more heavily.

Not a surprise, but I think the best all-time rankings are a combination of the above...while also factoring in team accomplishments with as much context as possible.

We can never escape the fact that we all know we'd rank KG much higher if he got drafted into great circumstances and won 4 titles...even if he was exactly the same player. That fact should not be ignored in GOAT conversations imo.

[Micku]

Man, CP3 has better advance stats than Magic. And he ain't better than Magic.

Bird has better defensive advance stats than Mchale in some years. And he ain't a better defender than Mchale. Same with Curry. Curry has better defensive stats than Klay, and he is no way a better defensive player than Klay.

Westbrook and James Harden has better advance stats than Hakeem and Tim Duncan in the regular season at their peak. Are they better players in the RS? Obviously not in the playoffs.

It's all about context with these things. Positions, eras, rules, and etc.

[Walk on Water]

Someone that is a 10 time scoring champ and a 6 times finals winner while being a 9 time first team nba defender can not be topped.

[jstern]

I didn't know Walk on Water was part of the Top 1 family.

[SpaceJam2]

Someone that is a 10 time scoring champ and a 6 times finals winner while being a 9 time first team nba defender can not be topped.
Imagine winning 10 scoring titles in the regular season but then scoring 1,000 less points in the playoffs

LBJ 6.9k > MJ 5.9k

[ImKobe]

Imagine winning 10 scoring titles in the regular season but then scoring 1,000 less points in the playoffs

LBJ 6.9k > MJ 5.9k

Lebron played 60 more Playoff games to score 1k more points. Also, he only won half the titles despite playing in 9 Finals.

[nayte]

Often people are talking across points.

Essentially ranking players usually comes down to 2 different camps.

Camp 1 wants almost exclusively talk about peak play...just simply...who was the best player on the court in their best years.

Camp 2 wants to talk more about a career ranking...that factors in statistical records and weighs longevity more heavily.

Not a surprise, but I think the best all-time rankings are a combination of the above...while also factoring in team accomplishments with as much context as possible.

We can never escape the fact that we all know we'd rank KG much higher if he got drafted into great circumstances and won 4 titles...even if he was exactly the same player. That fact should not be ignored in GOAT conversations imo.

You know that will never happen especially on this site . You are still right tho

[MaxPlayer]

The one thing we can all agree on is that we should all pay the most attention to whatever stats make our favorite player look best.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Someone that is a 10 time scoring champ and a 6 times finals winner while being a 9 time first team nba defender can not be topped.



Absolutely agree 100%.


Too many flaws against everyone else.


Championships? Bill Russell, 11/12. Problem is he was a 14PPG career scorer and got his # pushed in regularly by Wilt. Had a team of 9 HOF players, and played ina league with 8 teams.


KAJ? Played 20 years to get 6 rings, lost 4 times in the finals (1974 with the Bucks, 1983 swept, 1984 beat by Celtics, 1989 swept by Pistons). Great career though and I have him at #2 behind Mike. He wasn't the best player on a handful of his rings; only 2 FMVPs.



Pure stats? Wilt owns this category as we all know. But he was 2/6 in the Finals, and 33% Finals wins record just isn't good enough.


Mike has things that can't be beaten:
10 scoring titles, career 30.1 PPG on 50% shooting, 6/6 with 6 FMVPs (no one else has even 4 finals MVPS), never played a 7th game in the finals, won WITHOUT a dominant big man. Played team ball and had a steals and DPOY title, and 5 season MVPs. One could argue he should have 7 season MVP's (1993/1997 or even 1990) but they got sick of giving it to him every year. Not to mention all his game winning shots/plays in the finals.


It's really nothing that can be argued really...

[FKAri]

Those "important things" aren't equitable. They're from a completely different era and under different circumstances. So it's meaningless to use awards as a comparison. All you can say is MJ dominated from 91-98 (halftime break from 94-95) more than Lebron ever did over a similar span.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

List of players MJ stopped from getting a ring (i.e. beat directly) in the 1990's:


Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Gary Payton
Patrick Ewing
Magic Johnson (I said in the 90's)
Shawn Kemp
Reggie Miller
Mark Jackson


List of players Lebron allowed to get a ring (i.e. beat him directly) from 2008 - 2018:
Dirk Nowitski
Kawhi Leonard
Tim Duncan
Jason Terry
Steph Curry (x3)
Kevin Durant (x2)
Andre Igudoula (x3)
Klay Thompson (x3)
Manu Ginobli
Paul Pierce
Kevin Garnett
Ray Allen

[Marchesk]

List of players Lebron allowed to get a ring (i.e. beat him directly) from 2008 - 2018:
Dirk Nowitski
Kawhi Leonard
Tim Duncan
Jason Terry
Steph Curry (x3)
Kevin Durant (x2)
Andre Igudoula (x3)
Klay Thompson (x3)
Manu Ginobli
Paul Pierce
Kevin Garnett
Ray Allen


Lebron the GOAT of getting opponents rings :applause: