3Ball's seals of approval (Lebron, Curry, Doncic)

[StrongLurk]

Once 3Ball has one of his classic meltdowns about a player, that is basically the ISH seal of a approval for that player's status in the NBA.

Lebron is the usual catalyst of 3Ball meltdown's, but Curry had some time to shine as well.

We now have Luka at the center of attention of our lovable, deranged ISH troll, so we can conclude that Luka is officially the next generation superstar who has top 10 all time potential (possibly even GOAT potential).

Exciting times here on ISH to see Doncic take up the torch from Lebron.

[SpaceJam2]

Great Analysis, OP.

3ball is threatened by these players and lashes out like a wounded animal

[Mask the Embiid]

Luka hasnt done anything to be listed amongst those names. Some ESPN records (1st player under 21 to do yada-yada) do not = what those players did (win multiple championships)


I seen 3ball hate on a lot of players not in that list (Ben Simmons, Kawhi Leonard, Westbrook, ect)


I feel bad for luka cause when that fall comes in the playoffs, the white media/fans that are proppin' him up are gonna turn on him the 1st time he fails.


gonna be a shame cause he's a very good offensive player who won't deserve the type of hate that will come flooding his way

[DMAVS41]

gonna be a shame cause he's a very good offensive player who won't deserve the type of hate that will come flooding his way

Yea, I've been saying exactly that.

Shit, we already see it on here...he has a "bad" game against the Clippers and you have threads made about it.

All I know is that he's currently leading the best offense in the NBA by a wide margin while winning games...and that is pretty absurd if you evaluate his supporting cast.

[Doranku]

Forget the supporting cast, the man can't even legally drink yet. :oldlol: Sky is the limit for this kid. He doesn't seem like the type to let the media get to him anyway.

[Ghost1]

Forget the supporting cast, the man can't even legally drink yet. :oldlol: Sky is the limit for this kid. He doesn't seem like the type to let the media get to him anyway.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIeYWYWAbbk

Year 1: ROY, Porzingis trade
Year 2: shoe deal, playoffs, All-NBA, All Star


cringe video but wow :biggums: :biggums:

[DMAVS41]

Forget the supporting cast, the man can't even legally drink yet. :oldlol: Sky is the limit for this kid. He doesn't seem like the type to let the media get to him anyway.

I don't think we can discount what it means when a player is not only producing crazy stats in this era, but also having that production lead to wins and improving the players around him in terms of impact.

Last night, for example, KP was dreadful on offense. He still spaces the floor and boards/defends well when he plays like that...so it isn't a complete waste, but on offense...he was pathetic.

Luka being able to still do what he did while getting very limited help outside of THJ (who gets setup off Luka action a lot)...is super impressive against a Suns team that treated the game like a playoff game.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball trolls but he's right about Doncic's in-between game.

Would like to see him improve in that area. During the playoffs, he'll be THAT much better with that in his arsenal. Unguardable really.

[DMAVS41]

3ball trolls but he's right about Doncic's in-between game. Would like to see him improve in that area. During the playoffs, he'll be THAT much better with that in his arsenal. Unguardable really.

Yes, but I haven't seen anyone disagree with this.

Would anyone dispute that Luka would be a better player if he could pull up off the dribble to wet mid-range jumpers or get the ball in the post, turn and face off the triple threat, and either pull jumpers or blow by his man?

It just seems like the most obvious points that nobody would dispute ever.

Problem is, not being able to do that...doesn't make a player a "bum" or a player that would "suck" in other eras.

Michael Jordan would have been considerably better if he had been able to drill step back 3's at a 40% clip....seems like just the biggest non-point ever.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yes, but I haven't seen anyone disagree with this.

Would anyone dispute that Luka would be a better player if he could pull up off the dribble to wet mid-range jumpers or get the ball in the post, turn and face off the triple threat, and either pull jumpers or blow by his man?

It just seems like the most obvious points that nobody would dispute ever.

Problem is, not being able to do that...doesn't make a player a "bum" or a player that would "suck" in other eras.

Michael Jordan would have been considerably better if he had been able to drill step back 3's at a 40% clip....seems like just the biggest non-point ever.

I don't think Jordan needed a 3 (in his peak he was a good 3PT shooter in the playoffs) as much as Doncic needs an efficient midrange shot.

Can't say for sure. Haven't seen him play one playoff game to even make that call. But it seems conventional. And not trollish at all. Matter of fact, I believe that was 3ball's main point.

[DMAVS41]

I don't think Jordan needed a 3 (in his peak he was a good 3PT shooter in the playoffs) as much as Doncic needs an efficient midrange shot.

I can't say for sure. Haven't seen him play one playoff game to even make that call. But that would just seem obvious to me. And not trollish at all. Matter of fact, I think that was 3ball's main point.

Of course he didn't "need a 3" as much because he was a considerably better player.

This is my main point about this Luka stuff. I swear people think it is a knock against him that he might not be as good as all-time great players.

Leonard is clearly a better player. So is Lebron/Giannis/Davis...I'd probably list a few more.

Is that supposed to be a knock on him? That he might be the 10th best player in the game right now.

[3ball]

We can evaluate Luka in previous eras and this era:

Luka has no post/triple-threat skills associated with the power game needed to succeed in the bruising 80's and 90's, nor does he have the mid-range skills to shoot over the packed paints back then

These skills were standard requirements to be a really good player back then, and they're also requirements today to be the best winner and have the best teams (KD/Kawhi)

So he wouldn't be very good back then and will likely struggle in today's game against the better teams when the playoffs arrive.. infact, in previous eras, his softness would be exposed early in his career and he wouldn't develop like he has in today's hands-off, spaced out game (ideal for non-physical ball-handlers).. but even in today's game, he will probably underwhelm when shit hits the fan in the playoffs, until he develops this fortitude in his game (midrange game)

[DMAVS41]

It isn't accurate to say he has no game outside of a live dribble. This is just false. Again, one would have to educate themselves on the topic. Go watch him play before he was in the NBA playing off ball. Last night, for example, he made a move off a triple threat a couple times. It wasn't great, but it wasn't "nothing"...

Luka also isn't even soft. Where does one get this idea? He battles for rebounds throughout the game and attacks. He's super aggressive from the opening tip most nights and shown to be more than capable of bullying guards in the post at times.

Shouldn't be this ignorant if you are this die-hard of an NBA fan. Sorry, just shouldn't be.

[Doranku]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIeYWYWAbbk

Year 1: ROY, Porzingis trade
Year 2: shoe deal, playoffs, All-NBA, All Star


cringe video but wow :biggums: :biggums:

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

Crazy thing is he could actually beat that timeline, could def see him winning MVP next year.

[StrongLurk]

DMAVS, do you realize 3ball doesn't even WATCH the NBA? He has no idea how Luka actually plays besides looking at box score stats. He admits over and over again that he hasn't watched the NBA in almost a decade.

There is no point in trying to argue with him. It's a losing battle because you'll never convince him of anything simply because most of his posts are irrational in nature already.

The only thing 3ball provides is entertainment in his meltdowns over anything that happened after 1998.

[DMAVS41]

And, of course, using your criteria...lets compare 2nd year Luka to 2nd year Jordan.

Luka...31/10/10...63% TS...123 ortg...106 drtg...32.9 PER

Jordan...23/4/3...53% TS...109 ortg...107 drtg...27.5 PER

:confusedshrug:

[paksat]

It isn't accurate to say he has no game outside of a live dribble. This is just false. Again, one would have to educate themselves on the topic. Go watch him play before he was in the NBA playing off ball. Last night, for example, he made a move off a triple threat a couple times. It wasn't great, but it wasn't "nothing"...

Luka also isn't even soft. Where does one get this idea? He battles for rebounds throughout the game and attacks. He's super aggressive from the opening tip most nights and shown to be more than capable of bullying guards in the post at times.

Shouldn't be this ignorant if you are this die-hard of an NBA fan. Sorry, just shouldn't be.

probably from defense

some players take more pride in shutting people down ( MJ ) than they do scoring

many people believe mj tried harder on the defensive end than the offensive end, me as a player i've enjoyed defense too.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Of course he didn't "need a 3" as much because he was a considerably better player.

This is my main point about this Luka stuff. I swear people think it is a knock against him that he might not be as good as all-time great players.

Leonard is clearly a better player. So is Lebron/Giannis/Davis...I'd probably list a few more.

Is that supposed to be a knock on him? That he might be the 10th best player in the game right now.

Why would that be a "knock on him"?

Nobody has seen Luka play in the postseason. So again, nobody really knows whether it'll be a restraint in his game. What I do know is that it would make him a better player. Clearly. That's great the point is obvious to you. Cool. There are a lot of people who seem to think midrange isn't needed today. In this era.

[paksat]

And, of course, using your criteria...lets compare 2nd year Luka to 2nd year Jordan.

Luka...31/10/10...63% TS...123 ortg...106 drtg...32.9 PER

Jordan...23/4/3...53% TS...109 ortg...107 drtg...27.5 PER

:confusedshrug:

are you just trying to troll? bad troll is bad

you got bradley beal out here average 30 a game like he's "MJ"

league is a joke

[DMAVS41]

Why would that be a knock against him?

Nobody has seen Luka play in the postseason. So again, nobody really knows whether it'll be a restraint in his game. What I do know is that it would make him a better player. Clearly. That's great the point is obvious to you. Cool. There are a lot of people who seem to think midrange isn't needed today. In this era.

Nobody that understands or follows the game would think that having the ability to wet mid-range jumpers more often...wouldn't be better than not being able to.

Knock against him?

I don't know, maybe read some of the above posts claiming he's a "bum" or "would suck" in other eras...

:confusedshrug:

[StrongLurk]

Why would that be a knock against him?

Nobody has seen Luka play in the postseason. So again, nobody really knows whether it'll be a restraint in his game. What I do know is that it would make him a better player. Clearly. That's great the point is obvious to you. Cool. There are a lot of people who seem to think midrange isn't needed today. In this era.

No aspect of basketball isn't "needed". Midrange is clearly important for certain individual players (1st option scorer), but it isn't as important overall for the "team" as a whole compared to 3 point shooting, playmaking ability, and defense.

Yes, ideally your team's best scorer is at least a solid midrange shooter...but Lebron has been a below average to average midrange shooter his whole career and we've seen the success that he has had...

What team over the last 15 years has won a championship with the midrange shot as their best offensive arsenal?

[DMAVS41]

are you just trying to troll? bad troll is bad

you got bradley beal out here average 30 a game like he's "MJ"

league is a joke

I have literally been leading the charge about how these numbers need to be taken with context.

However, to act like someone doing what Luka is currently doing...means nothing and he would suck in other eras is way dumber than someone treating these current numbers the same throughout history.

Also, I'm just using the criteria that has been previously used by the poster in question against him. Not sure the problem...

Also, why is Bradley Beal being used like a guy that isn't good? He's a great offensive player and is leading an elite offense so far this...albeit on a team not even pretending to try on defense. You think Beal couldn't have gotten close to 30 a game in the 05 or 06 season? Please...you guys don't know what you are talking about.

[StrongLurk]

are you just trying to troll? bad troll is bad

you got bradley beal out here average 30 a game like he's "MJ"

league is a joke

Beal is averaging 28ppg...many players have averaged 28ppg in NBA history.

Beal is very similar to Ray Allen and we saw what Ray Allen accomplished. Beal actually averaged 26ppg last year...albeit on a bad team.

The league now is not a joke unless you only liked basketball from 1994-2005.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nobody that understands or follows the game would think that having the ability to wet mid-range jumpers more often...wouldn't be better than not being able to.

Start paying attention then.

There are heards of people, in the analytic crowd as well, who believe its the least effcient shot in basketball. And not needed.

These people are called "savants" by the interent community.


Knock against him?
I don't know, maybe read some of the above posts claiming he's a "bum" or "would suck" in other eras...

:confusedshrug:

I'm replying to you. Not 3ball.

[DMAVS41]

Start paying attention then.

There are heards of people, in the analytic crowd as well, who believe its the least effcient shot in basketball. And not needed.

These people are called "savants" by the interent community.



I'm replying to you. Not 3ball.

You seem confused.

It is the least efficient shot in basketball for most players....in large part because a lot of players can't make the shot at a high enough clip to warrant taking it.

That is separate from an individual player being good enough at it to make it a good shot.

Nobody in the "analytic crowd" was arguing that Dirk shouldn't be shooting mid-range shots. They argue that players like Andrew Wiggins should not be taking a lot of long 2's when he continues to miss them at the rate he did.

You are conflating the ability of individual players with a broad statistical analysis of the EV of certain shots.

[red1]

yeah 3ball is a bitch if he's latched his attention onto a player then that means his delusions of mj being the only good basketball player ever are being threatened.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You seem confused.

It is the least efficient shot in basketball for most players....in large part because a lot of players can't make the shot at a high enough clip to warrant taking it.

That is separate from an individual player being good enough at it to make it a good shot.

Nobody in the "analytic crowd" was arguing that Dirk shouldn't be shooting mid-range shots. They argue that players like Andrew Wiggins should not be taking a lot of long 2's when he continues to miss them at the rate he did.

You are conflating the ability of individual players with a broad statistical analysis of the EV of certain shots.

You're struggling with the main point here.

Luka isn't efficient at midrange. Nor really attempts them.

Those same people will then argue its not needed to make him great.

I don't know about you, but for me, being a good playoff performer...is part of what makes you great. That's an unknown for Luka. If he can't make midrange shots when they're available. And midrange shots are what are presented to him...in the playoffs?

That's a problem.

Why its a problem?

With 1...for missing shots in general...but mostly for thinking numbers in the regular-season are conducive with the postseason. Another reason...thinking a poor midrange shooter doesn't need to improve...because 3's and short 2's are the premium anyway.

Think about it. Why should Luka improve his midrange? Right now. In the regualar-season? By most efficiency metrics, that doesn't even look like its a problem in his game.

[ArbitraryWater]

You seem confused.

It is the least efficient shot in basketball for most players....in large part because a lot of players can't make the shot at a high enough clip to warrant taking it.

That is separate from an individual player being good enough at it to make it a good shot.

Nobody in the "analytic crowd" was arguing that Dirk shouldn't be shooting mid-range shots. They argue that players like Andrew Wiggins should not be taking a lot of long 2's when he continues to miss them at the rate he did.

You are conflating the ability of individual players with a broad statistical analysis of the EV of certain shots.

damn.

you put it in a way that has the other guy smacking their head, im assuming.

making erryone look dumb

[egokiller]

I have literally been leading the charge about how these numbers need to be taken with context.

However, to act like someone doing what Luka is currently doing...means nothing and he would suck in other eras is way dumber than someone treating these current numbers the same throughout history.

Also, I'm just using the criteria that has been previously used by the poster in question against him. Not sure the problem...

Also, why is Bradley Beal being used like a guy that isn't good? He's a great offensive player and is leading an elite offense so far this...albeit on a team not even pretending to try on defense. You think Beal couldn't have gotten close to 30 a game in the 05 or 06 season? Please...you guys don't know what you are talking about.

It's the same thing.... if luka's numbers are over inflated because of current era and not that much better than others like Beal in this era, it means when his numbers aren't inflated in another era, they are no where near mj's.
:oldlol:

Bottom line is that what anyone is doing in this era doesn't really matter in the big picture since the rule set is such shit and dumbed down.

[red1]

It's the same thing.... if luka's numbers are over inflated because of current era and not that much better than others like Beal in this era, it means when his numbers aren't inflated in another era, they are no where near mj's.
:oldlol:

Bottom line is that what anyone is doing in this era doesn't really matter in the big picture since the rule set is such shit and dumbed down.
bottom line - if you make a new account because you got proven wrong, then you're a bitch!

[red1]

luka is straight_ballin don't hate

[3ball]

It isn't accurate to say he has no game outside of a live dribble. This is just false. Again, one would have to educate themselves on the topic. Go watch him play before he was in the NBA playing off ball. Last night, for example, he made a move off a triple threat a couple times. It wasn't great, but it wasn't "nothing"...

Luka also isn't even soft. Where does one get this idea? He battles for rebounds throughout the game and attacks. He's super aggressive from the opening tip most nights and shown to be more than capable of bullying guards in the post at times.

Shouldn't be this ignorant if you are this die-hard of an NBA fan. Sorry, just shouldn't be.
Guys like Magic posted up a ton and frequently made quick moves to crash into bodies in the paint and score or draw fouls

you needed this ability (crash into bodies) to be a good scorer back then - see Adrian Dantley, the aforementioned Magic, Bernard King, and of course, Jordan crashed into bodies all the time (and he got worn down, which should tell you that Luka might not last 5 games in that era).. there's few exceptions to this rule - guys like Kiki Vandeweghe were physical players that could take hits inside and score or draw fouls....

Alex English is an example of a less physical player, but he was one of the purest scorers ever with goat midrange touch.. and even guys like maravich were rugged scorers accustomed to taking hits and most of his shots were ridiculously contested - it was just a different game, and if you put Luka back in the 70's as is (without altering his current game at all), I think he'd struggle like he did the other night against the clips.

[DMAVS41]

Guys like Magic posted up a ton and frequently made quick moves to crash into bodies in the paint and score or draw fouls

you needed this ability (crash into bodies) to be a good scorer back then - see Adrian Dantley, the aforementioned Magic, Bernard King, and of course, Jordan crashed into bodies all the time (and he got worn down, which should tell you that Luka might not last 5 games in that era).. there's few exceptions to this rule - guys like Kiki Vandeweghe were physical players that could take hits inside and score or draw fouls....

Alex English is an example of a less physical player, but he was one of the purest scorers ever with goat midrange touch.. and even guys like maravich were rugged scorers accustomed to taking hits and most of his shots were ridiculously contested - it was just a different game, and if you put Luka back in the 70's as is (without altering his current game at all), I think he'd struggle like he did the other night against the clips.

Again, you have no evidence of this.

As a teenager, he was playing quite well in a league far different than the one he is playing in now. He played off-ball a lot as well.

Again, find someone that watched him overseas that think it would be fair to call him a "bum" or that he "sucked"...you won't find it because it is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard on here.

Struggling the other night against a far superior team is not your burden of proof here. You have claimed he'd be a "bum" and would "suck"...your burden of proof is essentially that he would have been a far worse player than Danny Ainge.

:roll:

[DMAVS41]

It's the same thing.... if luka's numbers are over inflated because of current era and not that much better than others like Beal in this era, it means when his numbers aren't inflated in another era, they are no where near mj's.
:oldlol:

Bottom line is that what anyone is doing in this era doesn't really matter in the big picture since the rule set is such shit and dumbed down.

Who is arguing that Luka's numbers or him the player is even close to MJ?

What?

I posted that to show, once again, how narrow and idiotic it is in relation to another poster...not to argue Luka vs MJ...LOL

[DMAVS41]

You're struggling with the main point here.

Luka isn't efficient at midrange. Nor really attempts them.

Those same people will then argue its not needed to make him great.

I don't know about you, but for me, being a good playoff performer...is part of what makes you great. That's an unknown for Luka. If he can't make midrange shots when they're available. And midrange shots are what are presented to him...in the playoffs?

That's a problem.

Why its a problem?

With 1...for missing shots in general...but mostly for thinking numbers in the regular-season are conducive with the postseason. Another reason...thinking a poor midrange shooter doesn't need to improve...because 3's and short 2's are the premium anyway.

Think about it. Why should Luka improve his midrange? Right now. In the regualar-season? By most efficiency metrics, that doesn't even look like its a problem in his game.

Well, it certainly isn't needed to be a great player. Do you really think there are no great players that struggle with mid-range efficiency?

So that point is just objectively false.

Again, I have literally been...for almost 2 full weeks now...telling everyone to tap the brakes on Luka and most of this shit in general....and I already have agreed that developing a better mid-range game would help.

So, like I said....it is a total non-point to say that Luka would be better if he had a better mid-range game...nobody in the world would disagree with that.

That is why I brought up the "do you really think it is a knock against him" point to you. Your point sounds to me like..."Luka would be better...if Luka was better"...

[Ainosterhaspie]

Isn't international ball a similar style to the 90s? That's what people keep saying. I don't watch it, but until I have a good reason to think otherwise, I'll take it as true. Luka excelled in that style as a very young, clearly undeveloped player. Given that fact, it seems very unlikely he'd struggle playing a similar style in the 90s.

Then he came to the NBA and has priven adept at adjusting to a different style. Threes and shots at the rim are highly valued and that's what he pursues. That he's tailoring his game to modern points of emphasis does not mean he could not tailor his game to things that are emphasised in previous eras.

And again, given the fact that he excelled in 90s style overseas it seems patently absurd to think he couldn't adjust to that era's style.

But, I wonder why he would even want to adjust. They left players wide open at the three point line and didn't care to defend it. The thinking of the era was that it was a bad shot. It was stupid. It was wrong. But that's what they thought. Transport him back to that era and he can bomb wide open threes and maintain quality scoring.

So much of the midrange was stupid stuff like being open at the three point line, but taking a step forward to shoot. There is no reason to do that, but 90s players loved to.

Is Luka a bad midrange shooter? The numbers this season say no. He's shooting 56% from 10-16. He doesn't take a lot of those probably because he's told not to as it's a low value shot, but that's a very good percentage for a mid range shot. Kawhi has an elite mid range game and Luka's numbers are superior except the long mid range 16 feet out to the three point line. I don't think there's enough volume to draw a strong conclusion for Luka, but neither does the info support a conclusion that this is a weakness that would cripple him in other eras.

Luka is excelling at an age most 90s guys hadn't even entered the league. He has ple ty of time to get better, and he always looks really good. He has an innate feel for the game that would translate in any era.

Oh, and Jordan didn't come into the league with the ability to bang well. It took repeated hammering at the hands of the Pistons to drive him into the weight room before he had that strength. I see no reason why Luka couldn't similarly bulk up if it was necessary. That's the easy part.

[DMAVS41]

Isn't international ball a similar style to the 90s? That's what people keep saying. I don't watch it, but until I have a good reason to think otherwise, I'll take it as true. Luka excelled in that style as a very young, clearly undeveloped player. Given that fact, it seems very unlikely he'd struggle playing a similar style in the 90s.

Then he came to the NBA and has priven adept at adjusting to a different style. Threes and shots at the rim are highly valued and that's what he pursues. That he's tailoring his game to modern points of emphasis does not mean he could not tailor his game to things that are emphasised in previous eras.

And again, given the fact that he excelled in 90s style overseas it seems patently absurd to think he couldn't adjust to that era's style.

But, I wonder why he would even want to adjust. They left players wide open at the three point line and didn't care to defend it. The thinking of the era was that it was a bad shot. It was stupid. It was wrong. But that's what they thought. Transport him back to that era and he can bomb wide open threes and maintain quality scoring.

So much of the midrange was stupid stuff like being open at the three point line, but taking a step forward to shoot. There is no reason to do that, but 90s players loved to.

Is Luka a bad midrange shooter? The numbers this season say no. He's shooting 56% from 10-16. He doesn't take a lot of those probably because he's told not to as it's a low value shot, but that's a very good percentage for a mid range shot. Kawhi has an elite mid range game and Luka's numbers are superior except the long mid range 16 feet out to the three point line. I don't think there's enough volume to draw a strong conclusion for Luka, but neither does the info support a conclusion that this is a weakness that would cripple him in other eras.

Luka is excelling at an age most 90s guys hadn't even entered the league. He has ple ty of time to get better, and he always looks really good. He has an innate feel for the game that would translate in any era.

Oh, and Jordan didn't come into the league with the ability to bang well. It took repeated hammering at the hands of the Pistons to drive him into the weight room before he had that strength. I see no reason why Luka couldn't similarly bulk up if it was necessary. That's the easy part.

Yes to the bold. I've made this point a number of times with no response.

It isn't a carbon copy, but it is a good indicator of what Luka would be like in different leagues. We've literally watched a worse version of him excel in a completely different league more akin to what is being argued he'd "suck" at.

There is absolutely no evidence that a player with the size and skillset that Luka has...would ever "suck" at any point in the history of the game.

Yes, there are eras he'd be better or worse at...just like every player...but there is no universe in which he'd be known as a scrub.

[Ghost1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gX5C7OrXXg

Doncik's "clipper" game in Europe

G1 of 2018 playoffs

19 years old, only ball handler on the team (injuries), the most athletic team at the time, one of the most hostile arenas in the world, packed paint, shorter three point line, smaller court, no defensive 3 seconds, no freedom of movement...

they were scared and couldn't even hit the rim :lol

[NBASTATMAN]

Once 3Ball has one of his classic meltdowns about a player, that is basically the ISH seal of a approval for that player's status in the NBA.

Lebron is the usual catalyst of 3Ball meltdown's, but Curry had some time to shine as well.

We now have Luka at the center of attention of our lovable, deranged ISH troll, so we can conclude that Luka is officially the next generation superstar who has top 10 all time potential (possibly even GOAT potential).

Exciting times here on ISH to see Doncic take up the torch from Lebron.


:cheers:

YEP.. Players get better over time and LUKA has a chance to be one of the GOATS.. 3ball is a sad little hater ... LUKA already has a better long range game than MJ ever did and is already a better passer as well.. :rockon:

[Ghost1]

elimination game dagger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGPA6YL-nNs

out of a double team

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H69koQ50cc

clutch one legged three

https://youtu.be/4K_CWbxGcSU?t=255

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Well, it certainly isn't needed to be a great player. Do you really think there are no great players that struggle with mid-range efficiency?

So that point is just objectively false.

Again, I have literally been...for almost 2 full weeks now...telling everyone to tap the brakes on Luka and most of this shit in general....and I already have agreed that developing a better mid-range game would help.

So, like I said....it is a total non-point to say that Luka would be better if he had a better mid-range game...nobody in the world would disagree with that.

That is why I brought up the "do you really think it is a knock against him" point to you. Your point sounds to me like..."Luka would be better...if Luka was better"...

The reason midrange got highlighted, 3ball aside, is because Luka’s a perimeter player that creates his own opportunities.

His go-to being a drive or step back 3.

I’ve said repeatedly we don’t know how good he is without playoff volume. Well, I don't anyway. Because playoff ball more than EVER is the determining factor. How much does said player impact a game when defenses aren't lax and there is no load management.

That also applies to Luka. And whether or not his midrange, or lack thereof, will be a hindrance.

I’m not debating whether he would be better without a midrange game. That is obvious. We agree there. I’m flatout saying there are groups who believe it’s the least efficient shot. And since Luka doesn't take or make many, he doesn't technically need to. Will that hurt him in the playoffs? I don’t know.

A lot of unknowns. And I'm trying to understand the why. The when is soon to come.

Anyway, I have a few questions here. Before this goes in circles.

What does “great” mean to you? ALL TIME great, great in comparison to the average around the league or GREAT like players such as AD, Durant, Kawhi etc.

[DMAVS41]

The reason midrange got highlighted, 3ball aside, is because Luka’s a perimeter player that creates his own opportunities.

His go-to being a drive or step back 3.

I’ve said repeatedly we don’t know how good he is without playoff volume. Well, I don't anyway. Because playoff ball more than EVER is the determining factor. How much does said player impact a game when defenses aren't lax and there is no load management.

That also applies to Luka. And whether or not his midrange, or lack thereof, will be a hindrance.

I’m not debating whether he would be better without a midrange game. That is obvious. We agree there. I’m flatout saying there are groups who believe it’s the least efficient shot. And since Luka doesn't take or make many, he doesn't technically need to. Will that hurt him in the playoffs? I don’t know.

A lot of unknowns. And I'm trying to understand the why. The when is soon to come.

Anyway, I have a few questions here. Before this goes in circles.

What does “great” mean to you? ALL TIME great, great in comparison to the average around the league or GREAT like players such as AD, Durant, Kawhi etc.

I have repeatedly argued in favor of the bold for weeks now...as I have said. I have said we all need to "tap the brakes" on this shit when I had people arguing with me that Luka was so good and his potential is so high that you'd draft him over Dirk knowing Dirk's career would play out the way it did...meaning you know you are getting one of the 15 to 20 best careers ever and a player good enough to win at least 1 title...potentially more with legit help.

So I completely agree with the bold...as I have repeatedly said.

In watching Luka, he adapts quite well and he does have a nice little floater and bully post game that for some reason people ignore when talking about him.

In terms of playoffs...I'm far more worried that this team isn't very good than I am about his performance, but again...I completely agree the playoffs are what matters most and I have been beating that drum for weeks now.

Great can mean a lot of things. In this sense...the best example would be James Harden. He's very clearly a great player in my opinion. You tell me Harden isn't great...then we have different definitions. Westbrook...will go down as a great player. Flawed, no doubt, but great.

It seems to me that too many people basically cut off "great" at the top 25 players of all-time.

And we won't know much after this year with Luka...he's 20 years old in his 2nd year. That was my point earlier...can we give him the time to develop and learn from what the playoffs are like...you know, by actually playing in them first?

I personally think the Mavs will be much worse in the playoffs and like I've said...Luka's game...similar to Harden...will decline a bit. I'm just not understanding why that really matters at this stage of his career before we even know what reasonable expectations are for him.

[tontoz]

Is there an elite player that 3ball hasn't trolled?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Great can mean a lot of things. In this sense...the best example would be James Harden. He's very clearly a great player in my opinion. You tell me Harden isn't great...then we have different definitions. Westbrook...will go down as a great player. Flawed, no doubt, but great.

It seems to me that too many people basically cut off "great" at the top 25 players of all-time.

James Harden is actually a good comparison.

Not with how he plays. But with how "great" can be interpreted.

Harden is an ATG player who has flaws. Flaws that seep thru in the playoffs (failing to show in big games, too many threes, turnover prone etc.) I also want to watch Luka's first playoff series before making any definitive claims.


I'm just not understanding why that really matters at this stage of his career before we even know what reasonable expectations are for him.

With how people talk about Luka? Now?

To start, I think his postseason play will be a good barometer. He's young though. So again, nothing said will be definitive for that reason. Gonna be fun watching dude hit his stride though. Year in and out.

[knicksman]

No aspect of basketball isn't "needed". Midrange is clearly important for certain individual players (1st option scorer), but it isn't as important overall for the "team" as a whole compared to 3 point shooting, playmaking ability, and defense.

Yes, ideally your team's best scorer is at least a solid midrange shooter...but Lebron has been a below average to average midrange shooter his whole career and we've seen the success that he has had...

What team over the last 15 years has won a championship with the midrange shot as their best offensive arsenal?

LOL. thats because lebron formed superteams. All of the GOAT perimeter players have elite midrange. Bird, kobe, jordan. And then you have pierce, dirk, kawhi. The midrange game is the skyhook of the perimeter players. Its their go to move when everything fails. And any team who has that kind of player is likely to win.

[DMAVS41]

James Harden is actually a good comparison.

Not with how he plays. But with how "great" can be interpreted.

Harden is an ATG player who has flaws. Flaws that seep thru in the playoffs (failing to show in big games, too many threes, turnover prone etc.) I also want to watch Luka's first playoff series before making any definitive claims.



With how people talk about Luka? Now?

To start, I think his postseason play will be a good barometer. He's young though. So again, nothing said will be definitive for that reason. Gonna be fun watching dude hit his stride though. Year in and out.

Exactly my thoughts in terms of the bold. We need to see him perform...I'd probably argue in multiple playoffs...especially as this current Mavs team is very limited despite the record/offense.

[knicksman]

Well, it certainly isn't needed to be a great player. Do you really think there are no great players that struggle with mid-range efficiency?

So that point is just objectively false.

Again, I have literally been...for almost 2 full weeks now...telling everyone to tap the brakes on Luka and most of this shit in general....and I already have agreed that developing a better mid-range game would help.

So, like I said....it is a total non-point to say that Luka would be better if he had a better mid-range game...nobody in the world would disagree with that.

That is why I brought up the "do you really think it is a knock against him" point to you. Your point sounds to me like..."Luka would be better...if Luka was better"...

If you want to win it all. Its the most important thing to have. The GOAT perimeter players have it. Jordan, Kobe, bird. If you have lebron as top 10, only him doesnt but thats because of superteams. Kawhi has it, same with dirk/pierce. Its the go to move when all else fails. Its the skyhook of perimeter players. Thats why not everyone is high on lebron. Because hes not a guy you can count on when the going gets tough because of the lack of this skillset.

[bigkingsfan]

If you want to win it all. Its the most important thing to have. The GOAT perimeter players have it. Jordan, Kobe, bird. If you have lebron as top 10, only him doesnt but thats because of superteams. Kawhi has it, same with dirk/pierce. Its the go to move when all else fails. Its the skyhook of perimeter players. Thats why not everyone is high on lebron. Because hes not a guy you can count on when the going gets tough because of the lack of this skillset.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6406917&postcount=177

[DMAVS41]

If you want to win it all. Its the most important thing to have. The GOAT perimeter players have it. Jordan, Kobe, bird. If you have lebron as top 10, only him doesnt but thats because of superteams. Kawhi has it, same with dirk/pierce. Its the go to move when all else fails. Its the skyhook of perimeter players. Thats why not everyone is high on lebron. Because hes not a guy you can count on when the going gets tough because of the lack of this skillset.

Again, I agree a lack of mid-range shot or triple threat game on the wing can be a weakness late in close games in the playoffs.

Certainly I can agree that a player with those tools...all other things equal...is going to perform better than a player without those.

However, a player can still be great and not be on the level of Jordan or Bird or Kobe or Leonard...etc.

Can we please let the ****ing 20 year old kid play a playoff game before we start saying he can or can't do things?

[SpaceJam2]

DMAVS41 cooking EVERYONE itt

:dancin