AD is shedding light on Kareem's career & ranking, imo (new all-time rankings inside)

[3ball]

Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years)

But now AD has his Magic; he has his Oscar, just like Kareem did.. A ring is automatic barring injuries..

But this sheds light on the historical rankings - given this apparent dynamic (that AD and Kareem's teams are only as good as the guys getting them the ball), Kareem should certainly rank below Magic, and historic PG's like Magic and Oscar are more valuable than any big man not named Wilt or Shaq, whose physical dominance controlled games.

However, even though historic PG's have good teams without a dominant big man, they still seem to need an all-time big man to win a championship, while 2-way assassin-style players with scoring versatility, aka MJ, Kobe and even Kawhi seem immune from this need.

So to me, 2-way assassins with scoring versatility (MJ, Kobe) are the goats because they seemed to need the least help... So they're in the top 3 for me.. the historic PG's are next in line, with goat physical forces Wilt and Shaq coming next.. Kareem comes AFTER all these guys, and ahead of team-hoppers/super-team seekers Durant and Lebron..


1) MJ
2) Bird
3) Kobe
4) Magic
5) Wilt
6) Shaq
7) Kareem
8) Duncan (seriously considering Duncan over Kareem)
9) Russell
10) Oscar
11) Lebron
12) Dr. J
13) Durant


Something like that.. If Kawhi wins a couple rings with the Clippers, he would easily be top 10 because he fits the optimal player type of "2-way assassin with scoring versatility"

And you might be wondering how I have Bird #2 as a 2-way assassin... I think his defense is vastly underrated and he actually was a 2-way assassin.. Celtics had the #1 defense with Bird and his savvy/next-level basketball brain/instinct
.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe at #3 all-time is laughably stupid.

If Lebron should win an "automatic title" with Anthony Davis...and if not, should be humiliated.

How the **** did Kobe only manage to win 3 titles in 8 years with a player far better than Anthony Davis, based on your own rankings if Kobe was considerably better than Lebron?

[Akeem34TheDream]

Anthony Davis> Michael Jordan

[SpaceJam2]

MJ needed more help than any player in league history, while also facing the weakest opponents in league history

Pippen simply did more

https://i.postimg.cc/k4RZypFv/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg

MJ faced terribly weak contenders

https://i.postimg.cc/YqTvqcxK/net-efficiency.png

He had very little impact

https://i.postimg.cc/FsbptnM4/Bulls_win_drop.png

While playing in a terribly weak era

https://i.postimg.cc/nz43C3NT/90s_spacing.png

https://i.postimg.cc/ZqR9sXnB/hjklhjkl.jpg


While having zero records

https://i.postimg.cc/QCNZt6nR/23goog23.jpg

Now stop this nonsense. Dont make SpaceDaddy2 spank you again

[SouBeachTalents]

OP has literally made half a dozen different top 10's this year :lol

[3ball]

Kobe at #3 all-time is laughably stupid.


Kobe's ranking could be different depending on how dominant you think his frontcourt was with Pau and Bynum

It might indeed have been incredibly dominant, which would bump his ranking downwards.

But otherwise, he didn't need the help that anyone else on the list had

So I concede that his proper rank might be more in the 7-10 range

I also forgot to work historic PG Oscar into the mix and Lebron could be ranked higher too... so my rankings need some tweaking, but I think the concepts are there to come up with logical ranking.. 2-way assassins are the best (MJ/Kobe).. dominant physical forces 2nd (wilt/shaq).. goat PG's/bird-feeders are 3rd (Magic, Lebron)... bird-fed bigs are 4th (Russell, kareem).. and then the team-hoppers like Durant/lebron, and I think Dr. J should be in there (not as a team-hopper, but just overall as a player, he's close to Durant and lebron).. Duncan is an interesting case because he was not bird-fed and could control an offense himself - I rank him ahead of the goat pg's and bird-fed bigs, but behind the physical forces wilt and shaq.
.

[SpaceJam2]

OP has literally made half a dozen different top 10's this year :lol

Bruce is a lunatic what can we say :oldlol:

[72-10]

Never in my life haev I seen Bird so high except for that guy MerkinMuffly, but I don't think you're him. I don't know how so much credit can be doled out to Bird given his paucity on defense, but I agree that he might be the second best player to play since he played.

[red1]

I'm considering putting pippen above MJ after reading your threads 3ball. you've built a very convincing case.

[3ball]

Kobe's ranking could be different depending on how dominant you think his frontcourt was with Pau and Bynum

It might indeed have been incredibly dominant, which would bump his ranking downwards.

But otherwise, he didn't need the help that anyone else on the list had

So I concede that his proper rank might be more in the 7-10 range

I also forgot to work historic PG Oscar into the mix and Lebron could be ranked higher too... so my rankings need some tweaking, but I think the concepts are there to come up with logical ranking.. 2-way assassins/versatile scorers are the best.. goat PG's 2nd... dominant physical forces 3rd (wilt/shaq).. other goat bigs 4th (Duncan, Russell, kareem).. and then the team-hoppers like Durant/lebron, and I think Dr. J should be in there.
^^^ based on that criteria, Lebron could be as high as #5 and as low as the teens..

I lean towards the latter due to team-hopping, spectacular teammate marginalization, and also issues regarding clutch and losing as the favorite/perennial underdogs/underachieving with great supporting talent/record losses.. and can't shoot

[LAL]

Kobe is 2, almost 3 peated with Pau (bynum averaged like 5ppg in the finals) and 3 peated with shaq and role players. And the best player i ever saw but MJ has the perfect career almost.

Not even Bird could win as much with his very own superteam as Kobe.

Kareem is overrated, needed magic and a superteam, 3d option Worthy winning finals mvp even.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Kobe and Jordan had the most help of anyone on that list relative to their competition

OP claiming the opposite is akin to Kyrie saying the world is flat or some shit. We're laughing at you 3ball. Your takes and opinions are so fukking bad. :lol :roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why are Oscar and Wilt ahead of Lebron?

[Shogon]

Kobe and Jordan had the most help of anyone on that list relative to their competition

OP claiming the opposite is akin to Kyrie saying the world is flat or some shit. We're laughing at you 3ball. Your takes and opinions are so fukking bad. :lol :roll:

3ball is a gimmick account. It's not real. You're laughing at the wind.

[3ball]

Kobe is 2, almost 3 peated with Pau (bynum averaged like 5ppg in the finals) and 3 peated with shaq and role players. And the best player i ever saw but MJ has the perfect career almost.

Not even Bird could win as much with his very own superteam as Kobe.

Kareem is overrated, needed magic and a superteam, 3d option Worthy winning finals mvp even.
I agree 100% about Kareem, and I'm also thinking that Magic could be overrated in my rankings

it's possible that the goat PG's like Magic should be below the physical forces like Wilt/Shaq, but still ahead of guys they had to bird feed like kareem and Russell...

Duncan is a tough one because he could create his own shot well and wasn't bird-fed.. I think he's better than kareem tbh.. the true rankings probably have MJ/Bird/Kobe as top 3, and then Wilt/Shaq, and then Duncan, Magic, Lebron, Oscar, and then the bird-fed Kareem and Russell, and then Durant/Dr. J and possibly Kawhi..

And realistically, Magic and Kareem can't both be ranked top 5, because they're too much help for each other, so that's in line with the aforementioned logic.

[LoneyROY7]

Comparing AD to Kareem.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

Comparing AD to Kareem.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
well we already know that previous eras produced superior basketball players because the lack of spacing and hands-off defense made the game harder

regardless, AD's soft, basic game is the standard today, and he ranks similarly in today's game as kareem did in his day (AD probably gets MVP this year)

so it's a valid comparison, especially considering they're both bird-fed and need historic PG's to have good teams.

[SouBeachTalents]

well we already know that previous eras produced superior basketball players because the lack of spacing and hands-off defense made the game harder

regardless, AD's softer and more basic game is the standard today, and he ranks similarly in today's game as kareem did in his day (AD probably gets MVP this year)
Kareem was a 6 time MVP, GTFOH :oldlol:

[LoneyROY7]

well we already know that previous eras produced superior basketball players because the lack of spacing and hands-off defense made the game harder

regardless, AD's soft, basic game is the standard today, and he ranks similarly in today's game as kareem did in his day (AD probably gets MVP this year)

1st, AD has zero shot at the MVP. :oldlol: :oldlol:

2nd, Kareem had an unstoppable shot that he could get off at any time and on anyone. I would dare anyone to tell me what AD's go-to-move even is.

[3ball]

1st, AD has zero shot at the MVP. :oldlol: :oldlol:

2nd, Kareem had an unstoppable shot that he could get off at any time and on anyone. I would dare anyone to tell me what AD's go-to-move even is.
I agree that kareem was far better then AD and had the best go-to move in history

and could therefore create his shot quite well

but he still needed to be bird-fed to get that sky-hook off

he didn't quite have it like Duncan, who could square up and make plays and punish defenses - Duncan didn't need no magic or Oscar.. a couple short euros is all he needed (basically nothing compared to kareem)

as you can see, i'm adjusting the rankings as we're discussing them.. I now have Duncan ahead of bird-fed, historic-pg-needing kareem, and i've bumped magic down below the physical force bigs wilt/shaq and also below duncan.. so magic is appropriately ranked with lebron and oscar around the 7-9 range

[LoneyROY7]

I agree that kareem was far better then AD and had the best go-to move in history

and could therefore create his shot quite well

but he still needed to be bird-fed to get that sky-hook off

he didn't quite have it like Duncan, who could square up and make plays and punish defenses - Duncan didn't need no magic or Oscar.. a couple short euros is all he needed (basically nothing compared to kareem)

Good, so stop making these dumbass threads then.

[AlternativeAcc.]

3ball is a gimmick account. It's not real. You're laughing at the wind.
It's real

That's actually a disturbing revelation so i'll pause for a second.




But yes, he's incredibly easy to read and pick apart. His tactics are weak, and his overarching arguments are poor and unstable, which forces him to deploy said weak tactics to mask them. It's a viscous cycle. That's why you see 5-10 new threads like this a week, he's constantly having to formulate and revise nonsensical narratives to justify his beliefs.

It's literally like a retard who thinks the world is flat so he ignores logic, evidence, and reason in favor of pseudo-science and fallaciousness.


Obviously very sad, but moreso comical IMO. :lol

[SpaceJam2]

It's real

That's actually a disturbing revelation so i'll pause for a second.




But yes, he's incredibly easy to read and pick apart. His tactics are weak, and his overarching arguments are poor and unstable, which forces him to deploy said weak tactics to mask them. It's a viscous cycle. That's why you see 5-10 new threads like this a week, he's constantly having to formulate and revise nonsensical narratives to justify his beliefs.

It's literally like a retard who thinks the world is flat so he ignores logic, evidence, and reason in favor of pseudo-science and fallaciousness.


Obviously very sad, but moreso comical IMO. :lol

Goodness :roll: Sad

[3ball]

.
Adjusted rankings based on discussion itt:


1) MJ
2) Bird
3) Kobe
4) Wilt
5) Shaq
6) Duncan
7) Magic
8) Kareem
9) Russell
10) Lebron
11) Oscar
12) Dr. J
13) Durant


1) 2-way assassins with scoring versatility are first tier (mj/bird/kobe)

2) goat physical force bigs are 2nd tier (wilt/shaq)

3) goat PG's that bird-feed are 3rd tier (magic, lebron)

4) bird-fed bigs are the 4th tier (kareem, russell)

- the exceptions are Duncan, who was ranked AHEAD of goat pg's because he wasn't bird-fed and could carry teams on his own, unlike Kareem and Russell.. and also goat PG oscar, who was ranked below the goat pg's and bird-fed bigs


Other notes

- Realistically, Magic and Kareem can't both be ranked top 5, because they're too much help for each other, so that's in line with the aforementioned logic.

- I could almost put Duncan over Shaq - Shaq had Kobe when he beat Duncan, and Duncan still beat Shaq/Kobe once in their prime (03').

- I wanted to put Oscar over Lebron because was a goat shooter and would've won more chips if he had great teammates earlier in his career.... however, I couldn't get over his rudimentary, basic handle and put him over Bron with a straight face..
.

[Shogon]

It's real

That's actually a disturbing revelation so i'll pause for a second.




But yes, he's incredibly easy to read and pick apart. His tactics are weak, and his overarching arguments are poor and unstable, which forces him to deploy said weak tactics to mask them. It's a viscous cycle. That's why you see 5-10 new threads like this a week, he's constantly having to formulate and revise nonsensical narratives to justify his beliefs.

It's literally like a retard who thinks the world is flat so he ignores logic, evidence, and reason in favor of pseudo-science and fallaciousness.


Obviously very sad, but moreso comical IMO. :lol

Actually, no... it's not real.

And I know this for a "fact"(as much as anyone can ever 'know' something) for two reasons...

1) He posted in a thread he didn't create... a couple of years back (deleted... thanks Jeff for purging a year+ of topics) saying that Kobe would absolutely destroy MJ 1 on 1... I called him out on it, he laughed, weakly tried to defend it, and everyone ignored it as is usually the case on this site when I point things out unless I'm being inflammatory or someone is making fun of me.

2) Kblaze has straight up stated that he's an alt. While kblaze does not have access to IPs, he does have access to see deleted posts, so when someone screws up and posts something on the wrong account, deletes it, and posts it on the right one... he sees that.


3ball is a gimmick account.

I'm pretty sure I know who it is, but I don't care. It's unimportant. What is important, is that it's an alt.

[DMAVS41]

I will say this.

While I don't agree with where Kareem is in the rankings in the OP, I do think Kareem tends to get a bit over-rated at times.

Still, easily, one of the best players of all-time, but his career was greatly impacted in a positive way by Magic's arrival. Kareem's internal "give-a-shit" meter was never super high...he's even talked about this before iirc.

Long story short...I don't think it is crazy to take Duncan over Kareem. Part of that is because I still feel Duncan is under-rated...and the other part is that I think Kareem benefitted a little more than people realize from Magic and some of those Lakers squads.

[3ball]

Good, so stop making these dumbass threads then.
actually, how many scoring titles did kareem win with that skyhook?

MJ won at least 3 scoring titles with the fadeaway (96-98'), so his fadeaway is the goat move

people forget that MJ made over 700 jumpers in 1997 - that's 250 more than Curry or Lebron's high, at better efficiency than Lebron's best season

so mj's fadeaway is infact the goat move, and better than kareem's skyhook (bird-fed skyhook)

[AlternativeAcc.]

Goodness :roll: Sad
It's like a reality show to me man, 3ball's insanity gives me a dopamine hit everytime which ensures I come back to shit on him at least once a week :lol


LeBron Fam is eating so unbelievably good :banana:

[AlternativeAcc.]

Actually, no... it's not real.

And I know this for a "fact"(as much as anyone can ever 'know' something) for two reasons...

1) He posted in a thread he didn't create... a couple of years back (deleted... thanks Jeff for purging a year+ of topics) saying that Kobe would absolutely destroy MJ 1 on 1... I called him out on it, he laughed, weakly tried to defend it, and everyone ignored it as is usually the case on this site when I point things out unless I'm being inflammatory or someone is making fun of me.

2) Kblaze has straight up stated that he's an alt. While kblaze does not have access to IPs, he does have access to see deleted posts, so when someone screws up and posts something on the wrong account, deletes it, and posts it on the right one... he sees that.


3ball is a gimmick account.

I'm pretty sure I know who it is, but I don't care. It's unimportant. What is important, is that it's an alt.
LOL

that's interesting. I'm definitely willing to accept hard evidence, but it looks as though you just have some anecdotes that may or may not have validity behind them. Screenshots, man!

Also, even if what you're saying is true, it doesn't necessarily prove that 3ball isn't being genuine. If anything it moreso proves he has schizophrenia and other serious mental illnesses. Which we all sort of already expect in the 1st place.. lol

[3ball]

I will say this.

While I don't agree with where Kareem is in the rankings in the OP, I do think Kareem tends to get a bit over-rated at times.

Still, easily, one of the best players of all-time, but his career was greatly impacted in a positive way by Magic's arrival. Kareem's internal "give-a-shit" meter was never super high...he's even talked about this before iirc.

Long story short...I don't think it is crazy to take Duncan over Kareem. Part of that is because I still feel Duncan is under-rated...and the other part is that I think Kareem benefitted a little more than people realize from Magic and some of those Lakers squads.
indeed, the main gist of this thread is that AD has shed light on Kareem's game because they both needed goat PG's to have a great team (or even a good team).. so the goat PG's and bird-feeders like Magic and Lebron should be ahead of bird-fed bigs like Kareem and Russell

And this means that guys like Duncan gets bumped up a few spots, since he could legitimately carry his own team and wasn't bird-fed..

Ultimately, 2-way assassins/versatile scorers are the 1st tier... goat physical bigs are 2nd tier (wilt, shaq)… Duncan is in his own 3rd tier ahead of the 4th tier (goat bird-feeders like magic/lebron) and 5th tier (bird-fed bigs like kareem/russell)

the adjusted rankings are above (post #24) - other people's rankings will differ of course, but the gist of the thread was that AD has shed light on other bigs that needed goat PG's to have even a good team, let alone great team.

[DMAVS41]

indeed, the main gist of this thread is that AD has shed light on Kareem's game because they both needed goat PG's to have a great team (or even a good team).. so the goat PG's and bird-feeders like Magic and Lebron should be ahead of bird-fed bigs like Kareem and Russell

And this means that guys like Duncan gets bumped up a few spots, since he could legitimately carry his own team and wasn't bird-fed..

Ultimately, 2-way assassins/versatile scorers are the 1st tier... goat physical bigs are 2nd tier (wilt, shaq)… Duncan is in his own 3rd tier ahead of the 4th tier (goat pgs, aka magic/lebron) and 5th tier (bird-fed bigs, aka kareem/russell)

the adjusted rankings are above (post #24) - other people's rankings will differ of course, but the gist of the thread was that AD has shed light on other bigs that needed goat PG's to have even a good team, let alone great team.

I disagree mainly because you put Kobe in that first tier and there just isn't any evidence...that him over Lebron/Duncan/Shaq/Kareem/Russell/Magic/Hakeem...let alone other guys like KG/Dirk/Curry/Wade/West...is going to win more with similar help.

You are like a person that thinks something made in the image of something gives it inherent value. A nearly perfect copy of the Mona Lisa is worth a tiny fraction of the original.

Just because Kobe played like MJ...doesn't make him MJ.

He was absolutely great, no doubt, but he's not in that elite of the elite top group all-time. He's a fringe top 10 player.

[Shogon]

LOL

that's interesting. I'm definitely willing to accept hard evidence, but it looks as though you just have some anecdotes that may or may not have validity behind them. Screenshots, man!

Also, even if what you're saying is true, it doesn't necessarily prove that 3ball isn't being genuine. If anything it moreso proves he has schizophrenia and other serious mental illnesses. Which we all sort of already expect in the 1st place.. lol

Maybe so. That bolded paragraph is entirely possible.

I didn't save the Kobe comment... it's long since gone.

I don't know if kblaze saying he's an alt is gone but it's too much to dig through for me to care.

I didn't make it up. Oh well... maybe one day the facts will come out.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I agree with the premise that the great bigs generally need a great guard, but it isn't because they need to be "bird-fed". It's because they aren't great at getting the other guys on the team easy shots. One guy scoring at will isn't enough to win consistently in the playoffs (see MJ '86). You need a system, elite guard or even better both to have that kind of success.

Once you have something in place to get other guys scoring, then that elite big man can have playoff success.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I disagree mainly because you put Kobe in that first tier and there just isn't any evidence...that him over Lebron/Duncan/Shaq/Kareem/Russell/Magic/Hakeem...let alone other guys like KG/Dirk/Curry/Wade...is going to win more with similar help.

You are like a person that thinks something made in the image of something gives it inherent value. A nearly perfect copy of the Mona Lisa is worth a tiny fraction of the original.

Just because Kobe played like MJ...doesn't make him MJ.

He was absolutely great, no doubt, but he's not in that elite of the elite top group all-time. He's a fringe top 10 player.
He's trying to get around math

He knows the closest player to MJ is Kobe, but Kobe is fringe top 15. Saying Kobe plays like Jordan is the same as saying Jordan plays like Kobe . If he pretends that Kobe is better than he actually was, it elevates Jordan ('because even poor mans Jordan is top 5! See guys, I'm right after all!')


Obviously this is all nonsense and delusion, but you see his weak tactics in real time. :oldlol:

[3ball]

I disagree mainly because you put Kobe in that first tier and there just isn't any evidence...that him over Lebron/Duncan/Shaq/Kareem/Russell/Magic/Hakeem...let alone other guys like KG/Dirk/Curry/Wade...is going to win more with similar help.

You are like a person that thinks something made in the image of something gives it inherent value. A nearly perfect copy of the Mona Lisa is worth a tiny fraction of the original.

Just because Kobe played like MJ...doesn't make him MJ.

He was absolutely great, no doubt, but he's not in that elite of the elite top group all-time. He's a fringe top 10 player.
you might be right and I like your mona lisa analogy

I am biased towards kobe and always will be..

but you might be wrong and the historical record might agree.. he did get it done once he got a bosh-level player... his all-round skills and scoring versatility do translate to any format of the game, like international play where he excelled and proved superior when our country's pride was on the line.. also, he and mj are the only guys to win multiple rings with a lone all-star teammate..

so there is some historical evidence that he's a guy who wins automatically once he has a minimal level of help, like MJ did.. like, he got bosh (i mean pau) and it was automatic - we all knew he would win and that's all he needed to win.. whereas lebron gets multiple young studs and it's still a question mark whether he'll win and whether he needs more help - he's perennial underdog in a spot where kobe was perennial favorite.. that makes kobe better, and it's due to kobe's skills that he can win more with less - Lebron's limited scoring/attacking versatility marginalizes teammates, which makes him a worse player - again, its a SKILL thing

[colts19]

I don't really agree with Kobe as 3, but that's a argument for a different day. As far as Magic and Kareem not both being in the top five, I would make this analogy. If Bird had gone to the Laker and Magic to the Celtics, I think Kareem would have even more rings. I also think the lakers in 1980 would have set a all time rs win total with Bird. So if that had happened would you say Bird and Kareem couldn't be in the top five.

[DMAVS41]

you might be right and I like your mona lisa analogy

I am biased towards kobe and always will be..

but you might be wrong and the historical record might agree.. he did get it done once he got a bosh-level player... his all-round skills and scoring versatility do translate to any format of the game, like international play where he excelled and proved superior when our country's pride was on the line.. also, he and mj are the only guys to win multiple rings with a lone all-star teammate..

so there is some historical evidence that he's a guy who wins automatically once he has a minimal level of help, like MJ did.. like, he got bosh (i mean pau) and it was automatic - we all knew he would win and that's all he needed to win.. whereas lebron gets multiple young studs and it's still a question mark whether he'll win and whether he needs more help - he's perennial underdog in a spot where kobe was perennial favorite.. that makes kobe better, and it's due to kobe's skills that he can win more with less - Lebron's limited scoring/attacking versatility style marginalizes teammates, which makes him a worse player - again, its a SKILL thing

I think context really matters though for championships.

Look at your point comparing Lebron and Kobe. For starters, Lebron is much later in his career with considerably more mileage...but even ignoring that. The competition is likely to be way better this year than in 09.

Look at the kind of teams the best players had that year. There is absolutely no team that will even touch what the Clippers will be if healthy.

You have to talk about it all...not just titles won...but actually the impact of said players.

It is similar to giving Lebron full credit for making 8 straight finals. Of course we shouldn't, his competition in the East was a ****ing joke during that time. Doesn't make him a worse player or something, and doing that was still impressive...just like Kobe winning as much as he did was impressive, but we have to use context.

Of course it is all ultimately subjective, but I think we have enough information to say nothing was "automatic" about Kobe beating the likes of Dirk/Wade/Lebron/KG/Duncan in that era if they had equal help and coaching.

Like, just for fun, imagine Kobe not playing with Shaq...and instead playing with KG's help or somebody like that...but Dirk/Shaq or Dirk/KG were on the same team. He isn't winning shit. Does that make him a worse player? I'd agrue no...and if we argue no...then I think more nuance is needed on this stuff.

[3ball]

As far as Magic and Kareem not both being in the top five, I would make this analogy. If Bird had gone to the Laker and Magic to the Celtics, I think Kareem would have even more rings. I also think the lakers in 1980 would have set a all time rs win total with Bird. So if that had happened would you say Bird and Kareem couldn't be in the top five.


I basically agree with you, but using your logic, it makes sense to say that 5 rings with kareem = not top 5, but the 7 or 8 rings that Bird would've won = top 5

and in theory, kareem should still be out of the top 5 if bird got him more rings..





I don't really agree with Kobe as 3, but that's a argument for a different day.


I am biased towards kobe and always will be..

but you might be wrong and the historical record might agree.. he did get it done once he got a bosh-level player... his all-round skills and scoring versatility do translate to any format of the game, like international play where he excelled and proved superior when our country's pride was on the line.. also, he and mj are the only guys to win multiple rings with a lone all-star teammate..

so there is some historical evidence that he's a guy who wins automatically once he has a minimal level of help, like MJ did.. like, he got bosh (i mean pau) and it was automatic - we all knew he would win and that's all he needed to win.. whereas lebron gets multiple young studs and it's still a question mark whether he'll win and whether he needs more help - he's perennial underdog in a spot where kobe was perennial favorite.. that makes kobe better, and it's due to kobe's skills that he can win more with less - Lebron's limited scoring/attacking versatility marginalizes teammates, which makes him a worse player - again, its a SKILL thing

[LAL]

I think context really matters though for championships.

Look at your point comparing Lebron and Kobe. For starters, Lebron is much later in his career with considerably more mileage...but even ignoring that. The competition is likely to be way better this year than in 09.

Look at the kind of teams the best players had that year. There is absolutely no team that will even touch what the Clippers will be if healthy.

You have to talk about it all...not just titles won...but actually the impact of said players.

It is similar to giving Lebron full credit for making 8 straight finals. Of course we shouldn't, his competition in the East was a ****ing joke during that time. Doesn't make him a worse player or something, and doing that was still impressive...just like Kobe winning as much as he did was impressive, but we have to use context.

Of course it is all ultimately subjective, but I think we have enough information to say nothing was "automatic" about Kobe beating the likes of Dirk/Wade/Lebron/KG/Duncan in that era if they had equal help and coaching.

Like, just for fun, imagine Kobe not playing with Shaq...and instead playing with KG's help or somebody like that...but Dirk/Shaq or Dirk/KG were on the same team. He isn't winning shit. Does that make him a worse player? I'd agrue no...and if we argue no...then I think more nuance is needed on this stuff.
Context is not fantasy, put context on magic, bird and kareem's career compared to kobe's.

[DMAVS41]

Context is not fantasy, put context on magic, bird and kareem's career compared to kobe's.

What do you mean?

This would be a point if I thought Magic or Kareem or Bird was better than Kobe based merely on how many titles they won or team success.

Which I don't...and is the exact thing I'm arguing against.

[STATUTORY]

What do you mean?

This would be a point if I thought Magic or Kareem or Bird was better than Kobe based merely on how many titles they won or team success.

Which I don't...and is the exact thing I'm arguing against.
So context only matters for championships but not statistics? :rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

So context only matters for championships but not statistics? :rolleyes:

I think it matters for everything actually.

Not sure where you'd get any other idea.

I'm just not stupid enough to pretend like the level of play Dirk/Lebron/Wade lost with in 09 was somehow wosre than what Kobe won with. We can argue a bit around the edges...but we all know what the big difference was that year...

It was team strength.

Which is why I think Backpicks has it right in terms of the starting place. I think an unbiased/data driven analysis of the best careers should be where we start...and then start debating based on all the other stuff guys have proven.

For example, I think he over-rates KG for the reasons you seem to be getting at.

But, it seems like it always goes in the direction of "empty stats"..."nothing matters without a title"...and that is far more flawed than an objective analysis in my view.

[3ball]

For starters, Lebron is much later in his career with considerably more mileage...

but even ignoring that. The competition is likely to be way better this year than in 09.


Except it isn't just this year - Lebron was the underdog or lost for 3 of 4 years alongside Wade/Bosh... Ditto his years alongside Kyrie/Love - overall, he had superteams from 11-17' but was the underdog or lost every year except 1 - that's 6 of 7 years as the loser or underdog

Kobe would do FAR better than that and already did with just Bosh.

So regardless of how much you don't like kobe's stats, the historical record doesn't back up the idea that Lebron was better for winning than Kobe - he's almost always a loser or underdog regardless of cast, and that continues this year (people saying he's an underdog to the clippers despite having the best 2nd option in the league and various all-defenders, scorers, and veteran creators as his supporting cast)





Look at the kind of teams the best players had that year. There is absolutely no team that will even touch what the Clippers will be if healthy.


There's no team that touches the Lakers' cast either - Vegas put the lakers as favorites the instant they got AD for a reason - he's much better than PG13

And that's the problem with Lebron fans - they always complain about the comp without realizing that Lebron has a great cast too that should win if Lebron is the best..

i.e. they complain about the Spurs being too good, when Lebron's Heat had the most talent in the league.. This continued in Cleveland, when the 2015 Cavs were the pre-season and pre-playoffs favorite to win the ring - yes, we know they got hurt that year - but their favorite status before the injuries shows that they could've been favorites again in 2016.. They simply became underdogs in 2016 because they had a 2nd underwhelming 50-something win season, while Curry was winning 70





Of course it is all ultimately subjective, but I think we have enough information to say nothing was "automatic" about Kobe beating the likes of Dirk/Wade/Lebron/KG/Duncan in that era if they had equal help and coaching.


Kobe beat Duncan in 2008 with 30 ppg on 50%, and that was after Lebron had just gotten swept with 22 on 36% in 2007.

And KG had better help than Kobe in 2010, yet Kobe beat him by attracting a double-team and hitting Artest.

So it seems like you're the one biased here against Kobe, and not looking at the facts.





You have to talk about it all...not just titles won...but actually the impact of said players.


That's exactly what I'm doing, while you aren't..

You're ignoring the facts and blindly saying Lebron has more impact, even though the historical record shows that Kobe's teams were automatic favorites with decent help, while Lebron is perennial underdogs with even more help.

Kobe's superior scoring/attacking versatility fit with any teammates or system, which enabled higher ceilings (perennial favorites), while Lebron's limited skills/scoring versatility doesn't fit or get the best out of teams.. so kobe's superior skillset makes him the better basketball player..

So I stand by my rankings.. you did not convince me, and infact made me examine the historical record closer, which only reinforced my arguments for kobe.. you're simply ignoring the facts and going along with the standard group-think about lebron, while I look at what actually happened (perennial favorites versus perennial underdogs despite similar or less help, aka greater impact for kobe)

[DMAVS41]

I really don't agree with any of what you say on the topic.

Lebron has had really good teams, to varying degrees, from 11 through this year. Completely agree. The problem for you is that you make it sound like he hasn't done anything in that time. He's won 3 titles and made the finals 8 times or whatever it is now. In some of those finals...he was absolutely drawing dead to win it.

Yes, 11 he was terrible...but Kobe was equally terrible in 04...and actually won a title in 00 playing even worse.

Again, context matters. Kobe played with Shaq 8 years...they won 3 titles. If Lebron did this you would be absolutely killing him. You know this...I know this...we all know this...be consistent.

Why pick 2010 to compare to KG and 2008 when Kobe had a terrible finals and lost to KG's team?

KG had started his decline by 2010 and the Celtics were absolutely not as good. Duncan beat Kobe/Shaq. Dirk murked Kobe with way less help on your standards in 2011.

Again, nothing supports you here.

No, you aren't...you are assuming Kobe was better than he was because of your obsession with MJ and inability to think beyond the circumstances of certain players...all while glossing over all the real issues of Kobe's career and focusing mainly on the negatives of others.

Again, this is why a more unbaised view of Kobe has him as a fringe top-10 player. RealGM had him him at 11th last time I checked.

And that, based on his actual impact, is where he belongs...somewhere in that range...not in the range of the guys you put him at.

[Turbo Slayer]

I really don't agree with any of what you say on the topic.

Lebron has had really good teams, to varying degrees, from 11 through this year. Completely agree. The problem for you is that you make it sound like he hasn't done anything in that time. He's won 3 titles and made the finals 8 times or whatever it is now. In some of those finals...he was absolutely drawing dead to win it.

Yes, 11 he was terrible...but Kobe was equally terrible in 04...and actually won a title in 00 playing even worse.

Again, context matters. Kobe played with Shaq 8 years...they won 3 titles. If Lebron did this you would be absolutely killing him. You know this...I know this...we all know this...be consistent.

Why pick 2010 to compare to KG and 2008 when Kobe had a terrible finals and lost to KG's team?

KG had started his decline by 2010 and the Celtics were absolutely not as good. Duncan beat Kobe/Shaq. Dirk murked Kobe with way less help on your standards in 2011.

Again, nothing supports you here.

No, you aren't...you are assuming Kobe was better than he was because of your obsession with MJ and inability to think beyond the circumstances of certain players...all while glossing over all the real issues of Kobe's career and focusing mainly on the negatives of others.

Again, this is why a more unbaised view of Kobe has him as a fringe top-10 player. RealGM had him him at 11th last time I checked.

And that, based on his actual impact, is where he belongs...somewhere in that range...not in the range of the guys you put him at.
:applause:

[DMAVS41]

Think about the first things you'd bring up about Kobe if you treated him like Lebron.

All those stats you post for MJ and Lebron...they favor Lebron in a comparison over Kobe.

Lebron has him dead on longevity.

Then think about what you'd say about Kobe's early years when he wasn't even getting burn because he wasn't that good, the airballs in Utah, his horrid 00 finals, getting murked by Duncan in 03 with Shaq, one of the worst finals from a star ever in 04, missing the playoffs in 05, blowing a 3-1 series lead in 06, getting destroyed in the 08 finals, getting swept as the title favorite in the 2nd round in 11...etc.

The problem isn't thinking Kobe was better than most do...it is that you aren't remotely consistent in your treatment of certain players.

[LAL]

highlighting the "lesser" side of someone's career is not convincing if you do it for one player only. They all have it.

I can give you a bigger list for Lebron if you wish for example.

[DMAVS41]

highlighting the "lesser" side of someone's career is not convincing if you do it for one player only. They all have it.

I can give you a bigger list for Lebron if you wish for example.

I tend to agree, but you are missing the point.

The point is that is what he'd be saying about Kobe if he treated him like Lebron.

For example, he's arguing that it would be humiliating for Lebron to lose with Davis this year. In year 17 of his career...on a team in their first year together going up against at least one team as good or better.

So, my point is...do the same for Kobe. What happened in those 5 years he failed to win with Shaq? Right? We all agree Shaq was better than Davis...so where is the consistency? Lakers were favorites in 08...so I'm assuming he is going to hammer Kobe for playing so poorly in that series and losing...right?

That is my point...

Just look at the previous post. He brings up 08 vs Duncan and 10 vs KG. Like only someone ignorant or biased...or someone that thinks we are all stupid...is going to do that and think it proves something.

And, in terms of Kobe vs Lebron...I really don't think you can...especially because Lebron was so much better early on in his career compared to Kobe....and has been much better later in his career as well.

[3ball]

Yes, 11 he was terrible...but Kobe was equally terrible in 04...and actually won a title in 00 playing even worse.


Yes, they both had horrible series - lebron in 07', 11', and also 08' ECSF, while Kobe had his share of bad series too

So that's not a convincing argument.. you're 0-1 so far in convincing me.





In some of those finals...lebron was absolutely drawing dead to win it.


Not in 2011, where he was the favorite

And not in 2014, where it was even odds (https://www.nj.com/knicks/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html), so many expected him to win.

Ultimately, Lebron has 4 series where he lost when expected to win - 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2014.. I also think he could've won in 2017, although most disagree.

So your argument didn't convince me.. 0-2





Again, context matters. Kobe played with Shaq 8 years...they won 3 titles. If Lebron did this you would be absolutely killing him.


Kobe was a teenager, similar to 04' and 05' Lebron, yet you're comparing those years to Lebron's purely prime years with Wade and Kyrie?

Sounds like you're ignoring facts again and blindly committed to Lebron... 0-3





KG had started his decline by 2010 and the Celtics were absolutely not as good.


KG was declining but so was Kobe, and his Big 4 cast was still better to Kobe's cast... that's all that matters - the cast.. KG's cast was easily better, yet Kobe beat him.

So another failed argument for you.. 0-4





Dirk murked Kobe with way less help on your standards in 2011.


Earlier you cited Kobe's teenage years as evidence, and now you're citing Kobe's downside years as evidence.. So your argument fails again... 0-5





No, you aren't...you are assuming Kobe was better than he was because of your obsession with MJ and inability to think beyond the circumstances of certain players...all while glossing over all the real issues of Kobe's career and focusing mainly on the negatives of others.

Again, this is why a more unbaised view of Kobe has him as a fringe top-10 player. RealGM had him him at 11th last time I checked.

And that, based on his actual impact, is where he belongs...somewhere in that range...not in the range of the guys you put him at.


That's because the mainstream and casual fan is only looking at the stats - you only have worthless statistical arguments, while I have a skill-based, factual argument for why Kobe was better:

Lebron had perennial underdogs, while Kobe had perennial favorites despite less help because his superior skillset fit with any system or teammate, so he got more out of teams/had better teams.. :confusedshrug: :applause: … You cannot get me off this clear-cut, skill-based, factual argument with some bullshit stats.. :oldlol:

Kobe was simply better and most players that played against both guys choose Kobe.. I'm simply explaining why they choose Kobe, even if they themselves can't articulate it (all they know is that kobe's teams were bomb favorites and they had full confidence in victory, while Lebron's teams are less confident underdogs and constantly in need of more help)..

0-6






Again, nothing supports you here.


Except that Kobe needed a Bosh-level player at 2nd option to have perennial favorites, while Lebron had perennial underdogs with Bosh at 3rd option and a kobe-like perimeter stud at 2nd option..

Lebron simply needed way more help, due to his teammate marginalization resulting from inferior skillset..

Kobe would've been 4/4 with Lebron's Heat teams because he owned the Spurs - it's partly psychological, similar to Lebron's ownage of the Raptors..

Ultimately, there's so many ways that Kobe is superior including a superior skillset (on-ball/off-ball), superior mindset (assassin, teammate galvanizing), superior jumpshooter, superior winner and competitor, attracts double-teams/causes adjustments, among other things

0-7
.

[MaxPlayer]

Why are Oscar and Wilt ahead of Lebron?

Because they're not threats to Jordan.

[LAL]

So, my point is...do the same for Kobe. What happened in those 5 years he failed to win with Shaq? Right? We all agree Shaq was better than Davis...so where is the consistency? Lakers were favorites in 08...so I'm assuming he is going to hammer Kobe for playing so poorly in that series and losing...right?
It's not honest to say first 5 years with shaq when talking about 13 minutes per game Kobe, actual context, the minute kobe was a starter it was game over, 5 for 7 in a decade and as dominant as anyone.



Just look at the previous post. He brings up 08 vs Duncan and 10 vs KG. Like only someone ignorant or biased...or someone that thinks we are all stupid...is going to do that and think it proves something.



But then you say this

And, in terms of Kobe vs Lebron...I really don't think you can...especially because Lebron was so much better early on in his career compared to Kobe....and has been much better later in his career as well.
Have you seen 17th year Kobe play? Lebron missed the playoffs and Kobe looked so impressive who knows what he was going to pull off in the playoffs.

Lebron having his own team from the get go and not ending up in a veteran star team was luck, and even if he was better at a younger age, it doesn't mean much, were comparing all time rankings here.

[Kblaze8855]

The idea that Kareem was

[DMAVS41]

Sigh...

1. Yes, they both have...that is my point. You missed the point. My point was that you don't talk about them with Kobe. You aren't consistent. You post stats when it comes to MJ vs Lebron as part of your argument..then ignore those same stats that favor Lebron when it comes to comparing him to Kobe. Again, this is called not being an honest actor.

2. Completely agree about 2011. Don't agree about 2014, but I can concede that if you like. Again you miss the point....why aren't you doing this for Kobe? He was favored in 99 and lost. Favored in 03 and lost. Favored in 04 and lost. Favored in 08 after the Pau trade and lost. Favored in 11 to make the finals and lost.

3. Early years matter. You can't ignore them. Lebron was better early on his career vs Kobe...just like he's clearly better late in his career. Sorry if you don't like it, but if we are ranking careers and not peaks...every year counts. I agree some count more than others, but you can't ignore certain years just to fit your conclusions.

4. No, this is false. Nothing supports the 10 Celtics being the better team leading up to that. To use your own criteria, the Lakers were the pre-season favorites and then the Celtics struggled all year as KG came back from injury. Regardless, you ignored 08...when Kobe was actually the favorite and played KG's team...and lost. Again, why ignore that if you want to be taken seriously?

5. Every year counts...and if you are going to argue 11 doesn't matter for Kobe because of his decline. The longevity of his career sucks in comparison. So you basically only have 00 through 10 as relevant. Again, why would Kobe get a pass for 11, but you say Lebron losing this year be humiliating? Kobe was in year 15 at the time and didn't have near the mileage Lebron currently does. Again, you make my point for me...you are extremely biased.

6. I disagree overall, but can agree that Kobe is better than some of his stats suggest. However, I haven't seen any statistical analysis from you that approaches the Backpicks stuff...which really details some myths surrounding Kobe's defense / shot jacking. So, no...you don't have much here...especially when I've seen your "stats" you post...and they all favor Lebron over Kobe. You just don't use them here consistently because you don't like the conclusion as I said above.

7. Yes, I agree...Kobe has some superior skills in specific areas that are useful. This is a non-point as I, nor anyone, would ever argue that Lebron is better at every facet of the game.

[DMAVS41]

It's not honest to say first 5 years with shaq when talking about 13 minutes per game Kobe, actual context, the minute kobe was a starter it was game over, 5 for 7 in a decade and as dominant as anyone.





But then you say this

Have you seen 17th year Kobe play? Lebron missed the playoffs and Kobe looked so impressive who knows what he was going to pull off in the playoffs.

Lebron having his own team from the get go and not ending up in a veteran star team was luck, and even if he was better at a younger age, it doesn't mean much, were comparing all time rankings here.

Again, every year of a career matters. I've addressed this, but I'll address it again here. Some clearly matter more than others, but you can't just shrug off the fact that Lebron was way better than Kobe early on. You guys make it sound like we should just ignore Kobe's first 3 years...that isn't how it works...sorry. And, again, I'm not even making that argument really...I'm using it to show the inconsistency. Which is apparent...Lebron has to win in year 17 or it is humiliating...but Kobe losing with Shaq is fine.

Yes, I watched Kobe's entire career closely...and he's not as good as Lebron has been on the court late in his career...it isn't particularly close.

I don't think Kobe was as "dominant as anyone"...certainly not Shaq or Duncan from that era in my opinion. But even if I agreed with that...it wouldn't change my point...which was that Kobe with similar help vs the all-time guys I listed is not "automatic title" as has been claimed

[3ball]

The idea that Kareem was “birdfed” is enough to make me assume 3ball missed a lot more of the old days than he lets on. Even old Kareem was one of the best one on one scorers of all time.

Guys like Hakeem and Ewing could barely guard him one on one but he needs to be “birdfed”.....
I understand that Kareem had the 2nd best go-to move ever, but the skyhook was a possession-finishing shot, so he still needed to be fed to take that shot

given his bad teams without a goat PG, and his great teams WITH one, this at least APPEARS to be similar to AD, who obviously needs a great PG to have a great team too

otoh, guys like Duncan didn't need a goat PG or bird-feeding - he would get the ball at the start of the possession, face-up his man, and control the whole possession.. Duncan directed offense and dictated pace better, aka controlled the game without needing a goat PG

I think that's a big difference and explains why Kareem is more like AD and needs a goat PG to have a great team, while Duncan had great teams with a couple short euros riding his coattails

At a minimum, it would seem like the bird-feeders (Magic, Lebron) > then the bird-fed (kareem, russell).. Magic and Lebron both had good teams and 1 seeds without a goat big, but the same can't be said the other way around.

[Kblaze8855]

The basketball having to be passed to you in order for you score does not mean you have to be birdfed. It means you

[LAL]

Again, every year of a career matters. I've addressed this, but I'll address it again here. Some clearly matter more than others, but you can't just shrug off the fact that Lebron was way better than Kobe early on. You guys make it sound like we should just ignore Kobe's first 3 years...that isn't how it works...sorry. And, again, I'm not even making that argument really...I'm using it to show the inconsistency. Which is apparent...Lebron has to win in year 17 or it is humiliating...but Kobe losing with Shaq is fine.

Yes, I watched Kobe's entire career closely...and he's not as good as Lebron has been on the court late in his career...it isn't particularly close.

I don't think Kobe was as "dominant as anyone"...certainly not Shaq or Duncan from that era in my opinion. But even if I agreed with that...it wouldn't change my point...which was that Kobe with similar help vs the all-time guys I listed is not "automatic title" as has been claimed
Your first point was that you disagreed with putting Kobe in that first tier with Lebron/duncan etc.. I'm saying there's not much to disagree about putting Kobe atleast on that (higher even) same tier.

[DMAVS41]

Your first point was that you disagreed with putting Kobe in that first tier with Lebron/duncan etc.. I'm saying there's not much to disagree about putting Kobe atleast on that (higher even) same tier.

Yes, I disagree with that.

I think Kobe's individual impact and overall career was not good enough to warrant putting him with Lebron/Duncan in the all-time rankings.

Without having to write even more...this is about as close to my take on Kobe that you'll find...although I probably rate him slightly higher than he does;

https://backpicks.com/2018/03/01/backpicks-goat-14-kobe-bryant/

[DMAVS41]

The "bird-fed" Kareem shit is that same crap people used to tell me on here about why Dirk would never win a title.

"He needs someone to throw him the ball"

:D

[SpaceJam2]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]The idea that Kareem was

[NBAGOAT]

playmaking again is underrated by most people here. Bigs dont carry an offense like guards/wings not because they need to be "birdfed" but because they dont pass as much as most guards/wings besides a few exceptions like late 60s wilt.

[Replay32]

Man you're clueless. What the hell does bird fed even mean? How many PF and Centers can you name that can create their own shot or didn't need someone to give them the ball in the low post? It's called basketball dummy.

Kareem was dominant period. Magic and Oscar wasn't protecting the paint. Kareem also was a clutch player and very reliable in the half court, because he had the sky hook. Kareem is at the very least top 3. I have him at 1. His resume from HS to the Pros speak for itself.

I swear man this is another dumb thread from the OP.

[3ball]

Sigh...

1. Yes, they both have...that is my point. You missed the point. My point was that you don't talk about them with Kobe. You aren't consistent. You post stats when it comes to MJ vs Lebron as part of your argument..then ignore those same stats that favor Lebron when it comes to comparing him to Kobe. Again, this is called not being an honest actor.


With MJ, I use all the arguments for him over Lebron (including stats), because I can..

With Kobe, I can't use stats, but I can use other things, like his skills and the resulting superior teams that he had.. It's not that complicated.





3. Early years matter. You can't ignore them. Lebron was better early on his career vs Kobe...just like he's clearly better late in his career. Sorry if you don't like it, but if we are ranking careers and not peaks...every year counts. I agree some count more than others, but you can't ignore certain years just to fit your conclusions.


Okay, Lebron has better longevity.. I concede that point to you..

so you're 1 for like 10 or something..






4. No, this is false. Nothing supports the 10 Celtics being the better team leading up to that. To use your own criteria, the Lakers were the pre-season favorites and then the Celtics struggled all year as KG came back from injury. Regardless, you ignored 08...when Kobe was actually the favorite and played KG's team...and lost. Again, why ignore that if you want to be taken seriously?


you're making my point

Celtics were better on paper in both 2008 and 2010 - better talent - but Kobe's less talented team was still favored both years, while Lebron's more talented teams were underdogs in 16' (despite initially having the on-paper advantage and favorite status in 2015 before the injuries).






5. Every year counts...and if you are going to argue 11 doesn't matter for Kobe because of his decline. The longevity of his career sucks in comparison. So you basically only have 00 through 10 as relevant. Again, why would Kobe get a pass for 11, but you say Lebron losing this year be humiliating? Kobe was in year 15 at the time and didn't have near the mileage Lebron currently does. Again, you make my point for me...you are extremely biased.


Again, Lebron has Kobe in longevity... the first point that I concede to you... you're 1 for a million..

Part of that is because Lebron rests during the year and doesn't go all out, while Kobe does.





6. I disagree overall, but can agree that Kobe is better than some of his stats suggest. However, I haven't seen any statistical analysis from you that approaches the Backpicks stuff...which really details some myths surrounding Kobe's defense / shot jacking. So, no...you don't have much here...especially when I've seen your "stats" you post...and they all favor Lebron over Kobe. You just don't use them here consistently because you don't like the conclusion as I said above.


Again, all you have is statistical arguments - you can't argue skill... I'll take Kobe's skill and winning over Lebron's stat-padding and inferior skillset..






7. Yes, I agree...Kobe has some superior skills in specific areas that are useful. This is a non-point as I, nor anyone, would ever argue that Lebron is better at every facet of the game.


Lebron isn't better at anything, except maybe defensive rebounding

If Kobe decided to forget about winning and hold the ball 11 minutes a game to maximize stats, he'd get the same stats as Lebron.

i.e. if a coach's gameplan was to get maximum stats for one player without worrying about winning - that player would have great stats - that's what Lebron-ball is.. It's Lebron padding stats at the expense of team-ceiling - story of his career.. his limited skillset makes him an inferior winner to kobe, and therefore an inferior basketball player.





2. Completely agree about 2011. Don't agree about 2014, but I can concede that if you like. Again you miss the point....why aren't you doing this for Kobe? He was favored in 99 and lost. Favored in 03 and lost. Favored in 04 and lost. Favored in 08 after the Pau trade and lost. Favored in 11 to make the finals and lost.


They both were favored and lost - I only brought up Lebron's because you were lamenting about how he was "drawing dead" to win various Finals

But you're actually making my point by saying Lebron was drawing dead, while Kobe never was... Remember that when the 2015 super-team was first assembled, they were favored over the Warriors that year before the injuries - so that means Kobe would've had the best supporting talent in the league with that team and therefore favored in 2016, instead of "drawing dead" like Lebron's underachieving team.. So heading into 2017, Kobe's team would've been perceived as juggernaut favorites, instead of lucky underdogs that had no chance vs KD like Lebron's team..

It would be totally different with Kobe, because he's always gotten much more out of teams, while Lebron is a perennial underdog despite super-teams - that's Lebron's legacy (perennial underdogs despite super-teams, due to an inferior cp3/nash-level skillset), and that's why I knock him down the rankings..

Lebron might be 6'8" with the cp3 skillset, which sounds good and makes him way better than cp3, but it's still a suboptimal skillset that results in struggling teams on the championship level, regardless of cast or opponent.
.

[SpaceJam2]

Are we talking about the same Kobe Bryant with...

1x 40-pt Finals game in his entire career

1x MVP in 20 years

Blew a 3-1 lead vs team missing their best player

0x seasons shooting above .469% fg

0x playoff triple doubles

Missed the playoffs in prime (2005)

That Kobe?

[bigkingsfan]

Pip was bird feeding Mikey

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron isn't better at anything, except maybe defensive rebounding
:roll:

What a clown

[Replay32]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]The basketball having to be passed to you in order for you score does not mean you have to be birdfed. It means you

[3ball]

Are we talking about the same Kobe Bryant with...

1x 40-pt Finals game in his entire career

1x MVP in 20 years

Blew a 3-1 lead vs team missing their best player

0x seasons shooting above .469% fg

0x playoff triple doubles

Missed the playoffs in prime (2005)

That Kobe?
We're talking about the guy that was always favored because his skillset was the top tier skillset that wins the most (2-way assassin, versatile scorer)

The stats are irrelevant when you consider how good Kobe made his teammates and teams

[3ball]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]The basketball having to be passed to you in order for you score does not mean you have to be birdfed. It means you

[ArbitraryWater]

Kareem absolutely needed to be fed

And tbh, so do basically all bigs, which is why they ALL needed a great perimeter player to have a great team:

Shaq needed Penny, Kobe, and Wade

Kareem needed Oscar and Magic

Russell needed 8 other HOF's including Cousy

the only one that didn't need absolute juggernaut perimeter players was Duncan.. Even Wilt needed a loaded Philly team in 1967 with Chet Walker and others, and then he had Jerry West with the Lakers.. But I give Wilt a pass because he was playing the Celtics every year and they needed 9 HOF to beat him.

But again, all bigs need great perimeter players to win, which is why I've been ranking the goat perimeter players over the goat bigs for a while now.. And now I realize that Kareem's losing in the 70's is directly related to him not having a goat PG.. He was a great scorer himself, but he needed someone to give him the ball, like all bigs.

he is making a difference between giving (receiver creates) and fed (created for) ya big dummie

[3ball]

he is making a difference between giving (receiver creates) and fed (created for) ya big dummie
Why did he need goat PG's to even have a GOOD team, let alone a great team?

how can he be better than Magic, MJ, Bird and others when he needed so much more help, to even have a GOOD team, let alone great team?

Magic had 1 seeds without Kareem... MJ had championship teams with zero bigs worth anything.. Rookie Bird turned a lottery team into 60-win juggernaut.. Kobe won with Bosh as his sidekick (i mean pau)

how can he be better than these guys if he needed far more help and otherwise lost his ass in what many call a weak era (70's)?..

He was essentially the biggest stat-padder of all-time in the 70's - his sky-hook game was suboptimal and couldn't win shit - just like AD - until he landed alongside a goat PG - just like AD

But who cares about the facts right?.. Let's go with the groupthink that infact makes no sense.. :applause:.. :facepalm:

[knicksman]

I really don't agree with any of what you say on the topic.

Lebron has had really good teams, to varying degrees, from 11 through this year. Completely agree. The problem for you is that you make it sound like he hasn't done anything in that time. He's won 3 titles and made the finals 8 times or whatever it is now. In some of those finals...he was absolutely drawing dead to win it.

Yes, 11 he was terrible...but Kobe was equally terrible in 04...and actually won a title in 00 playing even worse.

Again, context matters. Kobe played with Shaq 8 years...they won 3 titles. If Lebron did this you would be absolutely killing him. You know this...I know this...we all know this...be consistent.

Why pick 2010 to compare to KG and 2008 when Kobe had a terrible finals and lost to KG's team?

KG had started his decline by 2010 and the Celtics were absolutely not as good. Duncan beat Kobe/Shaq. Dirk murked Kobe with way less help on your standards in 2011.

Again, nothing supports you here.

No, you aren't...you are assuming Kobe was better than he was because of your obsession with MJ and inability to think beyond the circumstances of certain players...all while glossing over all the real issues of Kobe's career and focusing mainly on the negatives of others.

Again, this is why a more unbaised view of Kobe has him as a fringe top-10 player. RealGM had him him at 11th last time I checked.

And that, based on his actual impact, is where he belongs...somewhere in that range...not in the range of the guys you put him at.

Expecting rookie kobe to win it all. LOL. Bron stans gonna bron.

[SpaceJam2]

:roll:

What a clown

:lol

He's obviously a closet Kobe fan and it pains him deeply to see Kobe 14th all time per most updated lists :lol

[Replay32]

Kareem was a play maker in the low post. He was an excellent passer and commanded a double team. You do realize that you can be a play maker from the low or high post right. Basketball isn't rocket science and the OP is making up stuff to push an agenda. SMH. Basketball consists of passing, dribbling, shoot, rebounding, and defense. Just because Kareem wasn't out on the perimeter dribbling doesn't mean he was bird fed.

This is just a taste of what kareem used to do to "bird feed" his teammates. I also suggest you watch some old lakers came. Kareem won finals MVP at age 38.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyMo7CpO1Oo

[3ball]

Kareem was a play maker in the low post. He was an excellent passer and commanded a double team. You do realize that you can be a play maker from the low or high post right. Basketball isn't rocket science and the OP is making up stuff to push an agenda. SMH. Basketball consists of passing, dribbling, shoot, rebounding, and defense. Just because Kareem wasn't out on the perimeter dribbling doesn't mean he was bird fed.

This is just a taste of what kareem used to do to "bird feed" his teammates. I also suggest you watch some old lakers came. Kareem won finals MVP at age 38.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyMo7CpO1Oo
He had horrible teams without a goat PG

Period.

He was essentially the biggest stat-padder of all-time in the 70's - his sky-hook game was suboptimal and couldn't win shit - just like AD - until he landed alongside a goat PG - just like AD

Sorry, but the bird-fed aren't greater than the bird-feeders.. So Kareem < MJ/Kobe/Bird/Magic

[SpaceJam2]

And for the record...

Kobe is a NEGATIVE in playoff DBPM (-0.3) and has a higher DRtg than Jordan and LeBron

You asked for it..


Playoff

DefRtg
LBJ: 102
MJ: 104
Kobe: 106

DBPM
LBJ: 3.2
MJ: 2.1
Kobe: -0.3 :lol

DWS
LBJ: 15.9
MJ: 12.4
Kobe: 7.3

LBJ 1st in all
Kobe last in all

LBJ > MJ > Kobe

Defensively

Next

[DMAVS41]

1. Right. You can use things other than stats. The problem here is that you have to pick if the stats are meaningful or not. Meaning...why even use them for MJ if you don't think they are worth anything? By using them, you are giving them credence.

2. Superior teams? I don't know about that...I'd have to know how you are defining this...and would have to know how much credit you are giving to Shaq. In addition, coaching matters...having Phil Jackson was a nice luxury. As a Mavs fan...I'd rather Phil Jackson than Avery Johnson...wouldn't you?

3. Yes, Celtics were better in 08 despite the Lakers being the favorite. I agree. 2010? No, the Lakers were better all year. I disagree about 16...the Warriors were a historically good team that was coming off a title and the best regular season ever. This was not because people felt Lebron wasn't good enough...it was about the Warriors being all-time great.

4. I don't think it is all statistics at all. Lebron's passing and game managing was better than Kobe's. Lebron's ability to attack the rim was better. He was better defensively. He has better longevity as you've conceded. He was just a smarter player as well...didn't take as many terrible shots. Better transition player in terms of offense and defense. Better 3 point shooter as well. More durable and less injury prone.

I understand what you mean to say...Kobe was more skilled than Lebron..and I completely agree with that, but that doesn't translate automatically to better player. It can, but it doesn't here. Lebron was just a different level of an athlete than Kobe was and it showed in their impact.

5. Kobe went all out? Dude, post like 2011 he basically stopped trying at all on defense. Honestly, post like 2001 his defense fell off quite a bit in terms of effort. Again, read the Backpicks writeup on Kobe that details some of this.

6. Forget about winning? Are you arguing that Lebron somehow hasn't won a lot in his career? He's going to go down as one of the most winning players in NBA history. Not sure what you mean to say here.

7. Yes, Lebron was drawing dead in some finals. 07 for sure...and pretty dead in 15 because of injuries...and truly dead in 17 and 18. Are you actually arguing that 4th year Kobe is winning the 07 title on the Cavs? Are you actually arguing that Kobe wins titles in 15/17/18 on the Cavs? I mean, I'd get it if you were talking about 11...and I'd agree, but 07/15/17/18...that just isn't happening man. That was my point...you are holding things against Lebron that no player in history is for sure winning. Jordan, for example, would have a better chance, but he's close to dead in 17 and 18...if not dead...maybe he could have gotten 15...maybe.

But Kobe? The **** if he's getting a ring in 07/15/17/18...

[DMAVS41]

Expecting rookie kobe to win it all. LOL. Bron stans gonna bron.

As usual, you missed the point mate.

:cheers:

[knicksman]

As usual, you missed the point mate.

:cheers:

So rookie kobe playing with shaq is equivalent to prime lebron playing with superteams? LOL Whatever bro. No wonder you cant understand what 3ball is trying to say.

[DMAVS41]

So rookie kobe playing with shaq is equivalent to prime lebron playing with superteams? LOL Whatever bro. No wonder you cant understand what 3ball is trying to say.

Nope, not at all.

The point was to show the inconsistency...like going hard after Lebron for losing the 07 finals...but making no comment about Kobe not even making the finals in 99 as the title favorite with Shaq.

You see, one should have to be remotely consistent in their arguments to be taken seriously.

[AussieSteve]

Narrative has gone from

"LeBron diminishes star team mates"

To

"LeBron raises star team mates so much that I have to reassess my GOAT list regarding past all time greats"

Smh

[3ball]

1. Right. You can use things other than stats. The problem here is that you have to pick if the stats are meaningful or not. Meaning...why even use them for MJ if you don't think they are worth anything? By using them, you are giving them credence.


No, I'm just pointing out that there's no capacity in which Lebron beats MJ - not stats, not championship impact, not skills, not winning, not mentality

nothing






3. Yes, Celtics were better in 08 despite the Lakers being the favorite. I agree. 2010? No, the Lakers were better all year. I disagree about 16...the Warriors were a historically good team that was coming off a title and the best regular season ever. This was not because people felt Lebron wasn't good enough...it was about the Warriors being all-time great.


The 2010 Lakers won more games and were better all year, but the Celtics were better on paper - similarly, the 16' Warriors were better all year but the Cavs were better on paper and should've been flirting with 70 wins like Kawhi and Curry did.

Kobe would've had the juggernaut in 2016 that Lebron never had, and this would've resulted in a better team in 2017 too.. Kyrie also wouldn't need to leave, since Kobe wouldn't "take the point" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhjHGdKAvbg&t=0m47s) from Kyrie every night like Lebron did... :roll:

Do you really have an excuse for why Curry won 70+ with Klay/Dray, and Lebron couldn't even win 60 with Kyrie/Love?.. The only excuse is that Curry's skillset allowed a superior brand of ball that turned role players like Draymond into HOF's and resulted in a great regular season team.. And Kerr ain't shit as a coach.






4. I don't think it is all statistics at all. Lebron's passing and game managing was better than Kobe's. Lebron's ability to attack the rim was better. He was better defensively. He has better longevity as you've conceded. He was just a smarter player as well...didn't take as many terrible shots. Better transition player in terms of offense and defense. Better 3 point shooter as well. More durable and less injury prone.


But he needs to dominate the ball to get elite stats - that's the problem - if you're coaching lebron, you're forced to let him handle the rock all the time, because he can't get elite stats any other way - if you take him off the ball, you marginalize your best player.

Coaches didn't have the issue with Kobe - he was good enough to get his max stats regardless of where you put him.. This maximized teammates and brand, so his teams were much better.. it's intuitive and there's no refuting this historical record.





I understand what you mean to say...Kobe was more skilled than Lebron..and I completely agree with that, but that doesn't translate automatically to better player. It can, but it doesn't here. Lebron was just a different level of an athlete than Kobe was and it showed in their impact.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=475199

championship impact my ass.. that's a myth... and it explains why lebron doesn't have as many rings as Morey thinks he would normally have






5. Kobe went all out? Dude, post like 2011 he basically stopped trying at all on defense. Honestly, post like 2001 his defense fell off quite a bit in terms of effort. Again, read the Backpicks writeup on Kobe that details some of this.


Okay, fair enough






6. Forget about winning? Are you arguing that Lebron somehow hasn't won a lot in his career? He's going to go down as one of the most winning players in NBA history. Not sure what you mean to say here.


He won by obtaining the extra/exhorbitant talent needed to offset his suboptimal, teammate-marginalizing style

He literally needed a 25 ppg scorer at 3rd option, so he could reduce it to 15 and still win.. If Love or Bosh were just 20 point scorers, then Lebron probably doesn't win if he reduces them to 10 ppg… He needed juggernaut 25 ppg scorers, so he could reduce them to 15.

And yes, I know he won with Love at 9 ppg in 2016, but Kyrie was probably 6-7 ppg above a normal #2, so it's moot.





7. Yes, Lebron was drawing dead in some finals. 07 for sure...and pretty dead in 15 because of injuries...and truly dead in 17 and 18. Are you actually arguing that 4th year Kobe is winning the 07 title on the Cavs? Are you actually arguing that Kobe wins titles in 15/17/18 on the Cavs? I mean, I'd get it if you were talking about 11...and I'd agree, but 07/15/17/18...that just isn't happening man. That was my point...you are holding things against Lebron that no player in history is for sure winning. Jordan, for example, would have a better chance, but he's close to dead in 17 and 18...if not dead...maybe he could have gotten 15...maybe.

But Kobe? The **** if he's getting a ring in 07/15/17/18...
Kobe would've won in 2011, 2014, and possibly 2017..

Remember, Lebron had enough talent to have 70-win juggernauts from 2015-2017 - Curry did, so why not Lebron?

Kobe would've fulfilled the potential and had juggernaut teams with Kyrie, not 50-win garbage underdogs like Lebron had...

It would've looked totally different - KD/Curry's warriors wouldn't be easy favorites over Kobe/Kyrie.. And Love/Klay cancel out, while Dray is a scrub...

So Lebron simply underachieved in 2017... big time.. can you really justify him winning 53 games that year or whatever he won?... :biggums:

[SpaceJam2]

Narrative has gone from

"LeBron diminishes star team mates"

To

"LeBron raises star team mates so much that I have to reassess my GOAT list regarding past all time greats"

Smh

:roll: :roll:

Facts

[DMAVS41]

1. Nah, we know you think there is some validity to those objective measures. Regardless, even if you didn't...you'd be operating in the completely subjective arena which is rather pointless because of all of our biases and preferences. I agree it should be a combination, but to negate all objective measures isn't useful.

2. Again, I disagree about 2010 and 2016. But, when it comes to 16...what does it matter? Lebron won and was great.

3. As you know, I agree that Lebron's style can at times be suboptimal. This is why I don't rate him as highly as others do. Problem is...this is true for Kobe as well in terms of his style being suboptimal...again...please go read the breakdown of Kobe at Backpicks...it details much of this. Also, to say coaches didn't have issues with Kobe is either the result of ignorance or more blatant lying. Come on now...

4. Lebron doesn't have as many rings as he should have because of what I consider to be one of, if not the biggest, meltdowns by a star in NBA history. To argue that Lebron should have more than 4 rings based on his circumstances is insane...unless one were to think he's the GOAT...which obviously isn't true here. A fair question would be, why are your expectations so high for a player you don't think was nearly as good as most do?

5. Kobe won with some of the most stacked teams relative to competition in NBA history. To use the "help" argument here against Lebron is pretty bad even for you. No doubt Lebron has played on a bunch of loaded teams since 2010, but Kobe over the course of his career did as well.

Again, you are using title or bust here. We all agree about Lebron in 11. However, this is a direct parallel to that for Kobe in 04...and I mean direct. Do we have to pretend like Wade/Bosh were playing at great levels in 14? Please don't do that. Do we have to pretend about 2015 out there with nobody? Do we have to pretend like there was a real chance in 17/18?

The problem when making this argument against Lebron in favor of Kobe is that the only counter is that Kobe wasn't good enough yet to win with Shaq. He failed as the favorite in 99. Was carried in the finals in 00. Again, imagine Lebron winning a title playing like Kobe did in 00...I swear...I'd worry about you. Then he loses as the favorite in 03 and 04. Loses again as the favorite in 08 and gets upset in 11...then, as you said...really started declining. That just doesn't holde up very well when the same stuff is thrown back at him. It is just...3 titles while being the 2nd best player on his own team...that inflates his titles won for his circumstances.

I will say this again and it needs to be dealt with. Kobe in the 00 finals was actually not even as good as Lebron in 11...and he got a title out of it. Ask me again why I don't like counting up titles to compare great players...LOL

6. 2011? Yes. Other years? No, he's not. The notion that Kobe is getting a title off the Durant Warriors tells me everything I need to know here...just an absurd take. I might as well just say I think Lebron wins 6 titles in his first 8 years with Shaq. Honestly probably a better chance of that happening than Kobe, in year 14 of his career...beating those Warriors.

[knicksman]

Nope, not at all.

The point was to show the inconsistency...like going hard after Lebron for losing the 07 finals...but making no comment about Kobe not even making the finals in 99 as the title favorite with Shaq.

You see, one should have to be remotely consistent in their arguments to be taken seriously.


nah. 3ball is consistent. It just that its substance based thats why you dont see it coz youre a stats guy.

[DMAVS41]

nah. 3ball is consistent. It just that its substance based thats why you dont see it coz youre a stats guy.

Sorry, to argue that it is fair to go after Lebron for his performance in the 07 finals...but not fair to go after Kobe in the 99 playoffs...isn't consistent.

Doesn't matter what type of "guy" I am...even though you are off-base there as well in how you are categorizing it.

[warriorfan]

Sorry, to argue that it is fair to go after Lebron for his performance in the 07 finals...but not fair to go after Kobe in the 99 playoffs...isn't consistent.

Doesn't matter what type of "guy" I am...even though you are off-base there as well in how you are categorizing it.

What are you smoking? Kobe was 20 years old playing on a bad ankle in a much tougher defensive environment. Comparing those two series equally is far from being consistent.

Kobe played the same spurs team the next year in 08 and dropped 29/6/4 with 58.5% TS

[DMAVS41]

What are you smoking? Kobe was 20 years old playing on a bad ankle in a much tougher defensive environment. Comparing those two series equally is far from being consistent.

LOL

He was in his 3rd year playing on the team favored to win the title. He had Shaq on his team. And he got swept out of the playoffs.

To argue that Lebron making the finals in year 4 playing with nobody approaching Kobe's help and losing to a Spurs team that was better than the 99 team that beat the Lakers...is worse...

Is exactly the type of double standard I'm talking about.

Lebron overachieves with his team to get to the finals. Kobe gets swept in round 2 as the title favorite starting the season.

But, yep, it is fair to hammer Lebron and not Kobe...makes sense.

Uhhh...yea, because Kobe in 08 was a better player than Lebron was in 07 and had a much better team...and the Spurs were worse. Let me guess...it doesn't matter that Manu was hurt either...right? Ever actually take the time to think about this?

Exactly my point...not consistent at all. Always an excuse for Kobe.

[warriorfan]

LOL

He was in his 3rd year playing on the team favored to win the title. He had Shaq on his team. And he got swept out of the playoffs.

To argue that Lebron making the finals in year 4 playing with nobody approaching Kobe's help and losing to a Spurs team that was better than the 99 team that beat the Lakers...is worse...

Is exactly the type of double standard I'm talking about.

Lebron overachieves with his team to get to the finals. Kobe gets swept in round 2 as the title favorite starting the season.

But, yep, it is fair to hammer Lebron and not Kobe...makes sense.

Uhhh...yea, because Kobe in 08 was a better player than Lebron was in 07. Ever actually take the time to think about this?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DiJZjmrUy68

He was injured and didn’t even play a game lol. Man you are a dumb piece of shit. Good luck with that.

Edit: oh you are talking about the 99 playoffs and not the finals, point still stands comparing a player when they are 20 to someone who is 22 and saying it doesn’t mean anything is bullshit. For two I would love to see LeBron James go against David Robinson and Tim Duncan. Dude would get shut down so badly it wouldn’t even be funny. You are still a ****ing idiot

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[FromDowntown]

When I think about this analysis it sounds like a pro LeBron thread as much as Im sure he didnt mean for it to be. Before the start of this season AD was a fringe top 15 player in the league by most accounts and now after playing 16 games with James he is drawing Kareem comparisons? Dont you see the connection and how this is a pro Lebron comment?

[DMAVS41]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DiJZjmrUy68

He was injured and didn’t even play a game lol. Man you are a dumb piece of shit. Good luck with that.

He played 4 games in the sweep dude. Do you really think I don't remember this?

You are confusing the 99 playoffs and the 00 finals...who is the dumb piece of shit now?

[knicksman]

Sorry, to argue that it is fair to go after Lebron for his performance in the 07 finals...but not fair to go after Kobe in the 99 playoffs...isn't consistent.

Doesn't matter what type of "guy" I am...even though you are off-base there as well in how you are categorizing it.

except that he didnt. Hes comparing kobe in 2008-10 with lebron in 2011-14. Which is a fair comparison although lebron has a superteam.

[DMAVS41]

except that he didnt. Hes comparing kobe in 2008-10 with lebron in 2011-14. Which is a fair comparison although lebron has a superteam.

Actually no, that isn't what we've been discussing.

[3ball]

3. As you know, I agree that Lebron's style can at times be suboptimal. This is why I don't rate him as highly as others do. Problem is...this is true for Kobe as well in terms of his style being suboptimal...again...please go read the breakdown of Kobe at Backpicks...it details much of this. Also, to say coaches didn't have issues with Kobe is either the result of ignorance or more blatant lying. Come on now...


they had an issue with kobe, but he's FAR more coachable than Lebron.

Lebron is infact NOT coachable.. He rejected coaching from everyone, including Walton (https://sports.yahoo.com/lebron-james-reportedly-ignoring-luke-waltons-play-calls-nobodys-surprise-210514450.html), Lue (http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/lebron-james-attitude-listen-to-tyronne-lue-cavs-heat-david-blatt/hjmyp8w984gi1xkzex534zc19), Blatt (https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/12/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-david-blatt-rift), and Spolestra (https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/fl-miami-heat-news-0402-20150401-story.html)

He always ran lebron-ball instead of getting coached, so the next Phil Jackson wasn't allowed






4. Lebron doesn't have as many rings as he should have because of what I consider to be one of, if not the biggest, meltdowns by a star in NBA history. To argue that Lebron should have more than 4 rings based on his circumstances is insane...unless one were to think he's the GOAT...which obviously isn't true here. A fair question would be, why are your expectations so high for a player you don't think was nearly as good as most do?


There's no excuse for him losing in 2014.. None... Except to take it easy on him





Again, you are using title or bust here. We all agree about Lebron in 11. However, this is a direct parallel to that for Kobe in 04...and I mean direct. Do we have to pretend like Wade/Bosh were playing at great levels in 14? Please don't do that. Do we have to pretend about 2015 out there with nobody? Do we have to pretend like there was a real chance in 17/18?


Bosh was in his prime but couldn't be activated because he was reduced to spot-up shooter - so it's on lebron that he couldn't activate Bosh when Wade wasn't responding.. Bosh would've been a superstar under Kobe, not some spot-up shooter.. again, kobe/wade/bosh would be RIDICULOUS... 4/4 easily

And Wade wouldn't be lackluster in any series alongside Kobe - it just wouldn't happen - wade has too much respect for kobe to do that.. but the reality is that wade saw that lebron checked out, so he was like "cool, cause me knees are sore brah.. let's plan our vacations before game 5"

But the reality is that Wade was just fine - he was lights out in the ECF, and therefore in much better shape heading into the Finals than say, 98' Pippen, who stuck it up in the ECF..

So Wade was fine, but he had bad Finals stats because that's what happens to secondary players when their team is getting blown away and their brand completely usurped - the secondary players can't stat-pad like the #1 option can.





The problem when making this argument against Lebron in favor of Kobe is that the only counter is that Kobe wasn't good enough yet to win with Shaq. He failed as the favorite in 99. Was carried in the finals in 00. Again, imagine Lebron winning a title playing like Kobe did in 00...I swear...I'd worry about you. Then he loses as the favorite in 03 and 04. Loses again as the favorite in 08 and gets upset in 11...then, as you said...really started declining. That just doesn't holde up very well when the same stuff is thrown back at him. It is just...3 titles while being the 2nd best player on his own team...that inflates his titles won for his circumstances.


People forget that Lebron averaged 16 on 39% through 3 games of the 2013 Finals - it's a testament to his cast that the Heat weren't down 3-0 at that point and still had a chance.. It was basically 2011 all over again (23 on 43% thru 6 games), but this time Jesus saved him and allowed him 2nd life..

Regardless, Lebron was a net negative for the series - the Heat lost with him on the floor - so I think Lebron's 2013 Finals in his uber-prime is equal to Kobe's 2000 performance when he wasn't in his prime.





I will say this again and it needs to be dealt with. Kobe in the 00 finals was actually not even as good as Lebron in 11...and he got a title out of it. Ask me again why I don't like counting up titles to compare great players...LOL


People forget that Lebron averaged 16 on 39% through 3 games of the 2013 Finals - it's a testament to his cast that the Heat weren't down 3-0 at that point and still had a chance.. It was basically 2011 all over again (23 on 43% thru 6 games), but this time Jesus saved him and allowed him 2nd life.. Regardless, Lebron was a net negative for the series - the Heat lost with him on the floor - so I think Lebron's 2013 Finals in his uber-prime is equal to Kobe's 2000 performance when he wasn't in his prime.

Ultimately, Lebron has as many bad performances as Kobe.. And he was outscored in 4-5 different series by a teammate, while Kobe never was.





6. 2011? Yes. Other years? No, he's not. The notion that Kobe is getting a title off the Durant Warriors tells me everything I need to know here...just an absurd take. I might as well just say I think Lebron wins 6 titles in his first 8 years with Shaq. Honestly probably a better chance of that happening than Kobe, in year 14 of his career...beating those Warriors.


Harden almost beat them, so Kobe would destroy them.. He wouldn't even need Kyrie and Love - just give him and injured cp3 and that would be enough.






5. Kobe won with some of the most stacked teams relative to competition in NBA history. To use the "help" argument here against Lebron is pretty bad even for you. No doubt Lebron has played on a bunch of loaded teams since 2010, but Kobe over the course of his career did as well.


^^^ that's a lie - pau and role players isn't a stacked team.. you're lying.

Kobe won with a Bosh at 2nd option, while Lebron needed Bosh at 3rd option - Kobe won with less... it's not complicated.. just imagine if he had Wade too.... :facepalm … my goodness - seriously, kobe/wade/bosh - they'd never lose... 70-win champions for sure... kobe never played with talent like that.





2. Again, I disagree about 2010 and 2016. But, when it comes to 16...what does it matter? Lebron won and was great.


It matters because Lebron won as a perceived lucky underdog in 2016

but if he won 70 games in 2016 and won as the favorite, he would've entered 2017 as a 70-win champion and the ultimate juggernaut favorite - it wouldn't matter what KD did - that's how kobe would've won and he'd enter 2017 as a huge favorite regardless of KD...

and again, Kobe/Kyrie/Love would NOT be an underdog to KD/Curry/Klay and would've had good odds to win in 2017.. Otoh, Lebron's 53-win team was perceived as overmatched, despite having enough talent to win (many guys won with real talent deficits, i.e. dirk in 2011 and many more)
..

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DiJZjmrUy68

He was injured and didn

[warriorfan]

Nice edit you ****ing clown.

No, the point is that it isn't fair to absolve Kobe of his first 3 to 4 years and then act like Lebron should have been beating a team in the 07 finals that Kobe couldn't beat at a similar stage of his career with Shaq.

20 year old LeBron would have done worse than Kobe if you swapped places with him against that team. You are a low iq clown if you think otherwise.

[DMAVS41]

1. I assume you mean Spo is the next Phil Jackson. I love Spo, so I agree that he had a very good coach in Spo. I disagree that Lebron wasn't coachable, but even if I did...I don't know how that impacted Spo being a great coach.

2. Most people aren't aware of how big of favorites the Spurs really should have been in 14. We will just have to avoid this as we couldn't be further apart. My guess is that you assume Wade/Bosh were way better than they actually were. The Spurs won 62 games, had the best SRS, and a more balanced team than the Heat.

3. Competition matters. But, Bosh missed serious time in 12 and hardly was anything approaching Pau standards in the playoffs when they won. In addition, both Wade/Bosh were severely diminished in reality vs how you are treating them in the 13 playoffs as well.

Nah, it wasn't because of Lebron ball. They were battling injuries throughout that run from the 12 playoffs on.

Again, of course there is going to be some reduction when you have 3 guys like that...you can't optimally have 3 players like that producing...sacrifice is necessary and Bosh felt most of it most of the time. He was solid defensively though and deserves credit for that.

Also, you can't just ignore that Kobe got 3 titles with Shaq. You seem to only want to talk about Kobe winning with Pau, but that isn't what happened to begin with. None of the other elite players in 09 or 10 had great help. When Dirk got it the following year...he swept the same team out of the 2nd round in the playoffs. I'm not even discounting the titles...I'm just saying you have to factor in the competition. It just wasn't the same as playing some of the teams Lebron has in the finals.

4. Yes, Lebron's 13 finals tend to get over-rated. You'll find posts of me saying the exact same thing. Again though...Kobe got carried at times to titles. All I ask for is consistency...

5. That Rockets team is way better than you are giving them credit for. Kobe in place of Harden would have had a far better chance to win than he would have had in place of Lebron. But we aren't talking about replacing Harden...we are talking about replacing Lebron.

6. Meh...this is a weak argument. Demanding that Lebron win 70 games in the regular season so he's not viewed as a dog is the height of the one-sided nature I'm attacking. How about Kobe winning 75 games with Shaq...why the **** didn't that happen?

[DMAVS41]

20 year old LeBron would have done worse than Kobe if you swapped places with him against that team. You are a low iq clown if you think otherwise.

I disagree, but that wasn't my point...as you know...to begin with.

[DMAVS41]

So, I'll let you respond, but I'm going to try to sum up where we are.

You have agreed that Kobe's defense and longevity are not what you initially thought overall.

I have agreed that Kobe was more skilled and that in certain instances would have won in place of Lebron (2011)...

It seems that the real issue comes down to how we value the help/competition of each player when it comes to their team success.

In addition, it seems like you want no impact stats to be used...while I'd want to quantify some of this.

So, the question for you essentially is...given that you've agreed about the longevity...was Kobe's peak so much demonstrably higher than Lebron's that it negates Lebron having superior longevity/durability.

I hope you can see why this isn't a real issue for me. Lebron was better based on the best objective measures we have, he was more durable and has better longevity, and I think at his peak he was a better player.

That is why it is open and shut for me.

[DMAVS41]

https://i.ibb.co/RCTM7q4/Capture1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/8mY3F2m/Capture.jpg

[StrongLurk]

https://i.ibb.co/RCTM7q4/Capture1.jpg

I remember OP saying that Luka could "shoot the lights out" sometime within the last 10 days, even though Luka is only like a 33% 3 point shooter. Yet now he says Luka can't shoot midrange shots.

Strange.

[DMAVS41]

https://i.ibb.co/RCTM7q4/Capture1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/8mY3F2m/Capture.jpg

I know you want to ignore all objective measures, but we all have our biases and preferences...

In this case, you have a clear bias you have admitted to because of Kobe's play mirroring Jordan.

The problem is though, he wasn't Jordan.

https://i.ibb.co/qCTdqG8/JJ.jpg

Is it really a shock that Jordan's graph looks like that? Not to me, not to you. Same methodology.

I'm just saying...stuff like this would give me pause if I was on your side of the debate.

[Kblaze8855]

Why did he need goat PG's to even have a GOOD team, let alone a great team?

how can he be better than Magic, MJ, Bird and others when he needed so much more help, to even have a GOOD team, let alone great team?

Magic had 1 seeds without Kareem... MJ had championship teams with zero bigs worth anything.. Rookie Bird turned a lottery team into 60-win juggernaut.. Kobe won with Bosh as his sidekick (i mean pau)

how can he be better than these guys if he needed far more help and otherwise lost his ass in what many call a weak era (70's)?..

He was essentially the biggest stat-padder of all-time in the 70's - his sky-hook game was suboptimal and couldn't win shit - just like AD - until he landed alongside a goat PG - just like AD

But who cares about the facts right?.. Let's go with the groupthink that infact makes no sense.. :applause:.. :facepalm:



Kareem won 56 game

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

1. I assume you mean Spo is the next Phil Jackson. I love Spo, so I agree that he had a very good coach in Spo. I disagree that Lebron wasn't coachable, but even if I did...I don't know how that impacted Spo being a great coach.


No, Blatt was the next Phil that Lebron didn't allow

Blatt wanted to install an Princeton type offense with a lot of off-ball movement - Lebron knew he didn't have the skill to excel in that offense, so he fired him.

But again, Lebron has rejected coaching from every coach he's ever had - there's documented proof (provided earlier with those links to each coach) that he shut down every coach and had them run lebron-ball.





2. Most people aren't aware of how big of favorites the Spurs really should have been in 14.


Why should they have been favored by more? Were they stacked with talent more than the Heat?.. The Heat had 4 HOF and a much younger core (36/37/32 for duncan/ginobili/parker versus 29/29/32 for lebron/bosh/wade)

So the Spurs didn't have more talent.. they won via teamwork, which is all on lebron and lebron-ball.

heck, the 14' Spurs were taken 7 games by the 8-seeded Mavs.. So how are you making excuses for the Heat?.. you're ignoring the facts





2. Most people aren't aware of how big of favorites the Spurs really should have been in 14.


Remember when the 98' Jazz swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and destroyed Duncan/Popovich's Spurs on the way to the Finals?

They were playing WAY better than the Bulls, yet no one was making excuses for the Bulls - MJ just went out there and carried his injured, weary team to the championship.

Otoh, you're making excuses for a 4 HOF team that had a much younger core

the old ass spurs simply gave the heat a basketball lesson on ball movement - that lesson couldn't be given to kobe, who was skilled enough to excel in some of the best systems ever.. again, there's no excuse for lebron losing to the spurs, who had the exact same team as the previous year when the heat were favored and won





Again, of course there is going to be some reduction when you have 3 guys like that...you can't optimally have 3 players like that producing...sacrifice is necessary and Bosh felt most of it most of the time. He was solid defensively though and deserves credit for that.


Nonsense.. Klay averaged 20 ppg on the Warriors as the 3rd option.. Bosh could've done that too but he didn't fit with Lebron or Lebron-ball.. But he would've fit with Kobe and averaged 20 ppg like Klay did.





We will just have to avoid this as we couldn't be further apart. My guess is that you assume Wade/Bosh were way better than they actually were. The Spurs won 62 games, had the best SRS, and a more balanced team than the Heat.


Bosh was 29 years old and in his prime - he was still the 25 ppg scorer that he was in Toronto, but was shut down by lebron-ball..

how am I wrong - the guy was still 29 years old - you're just being results-oriented and saying "well, he sucked next to lebron so he sucked period".... no, lebron-ball shut him down - he was still the 25 ppg guy that he was in Toronto and could've averaged 20 ppg like other 3rd options have done.

but again, lebron couldn't call on bosh because he'd reduced him to spot-up shooter.. so it's all on lebron and his suboptimal style.. if bosh was the player he was supposed to be alongside lebron, that alone would've made the heat juggernauts and no opponent would have a chance

And btw, wade averaged 20/5/5 on 55% in the ECF - that isn't enough help heading into the Finals?.. those are basically prime pippen numbers with better efficiency.. So Wade was fine, but he gave up in the Finals because he saw Lebron give up - they were cool with it and mailed it in.. Wade wouldn't have done that with Kobe.





2. Most people aren't aware of how big of favorites the Spurs really should have been in 14.


the spurs were old as dirt and didn't have more talent.. So Lebron can't beat the best SRS team with a 2 seed/b2b champion/4 HOF team, when guys like MJ did it with a 6 seed full of rookies?

if lebron is so great, he's supposed to make up small differences, like kobe was expected to do in 2008 against the Celtics, and like he infact did in 2010

listen to Isiah Thomas say that his pistons had the far better cast, but MJ was the difference (Isiah speaks after Magic):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s



CONTINUED...…
.

[3ball]

.
CONTINUED....





3. Competition matters. But, Bosh missed serious time in 12 and hardly was anything approaching Pau standards in the playoffs when they won. In addition, both Wade/Bosh were severely diminished in reality vs how you are treating them in the 13 playoffs as well.


Lebron has a cakewalk through the East - he would've won without Bosh or Wade..

Only in the Finals did he need Wade, and Wade showed up in those 13' Finals, which is why they still had a chance after 3 games (they were down 2-1, not 3-0), despite Lebron's anemic 16 on 39%.






.I'm just saying you have to factor in the competition. It just wasn't the same as playing some of the teams Lebron has in the finals.


It isn't fair to compare teams in the recent 3-star vs. 3-star format to teams in kobe's era where it was 2-star vs. 2 star..

Ultimately Lebron had his own 3-star super-teams and the only actual talent deficit he ever overcame in his whole career was the 07' ECF





None of the elite players in 2009 or 2010 had great help


you've been debunked on this already

Kobe beat the Spurs in 2008 and they were actually a 3-star team.. Kobe beat them with his 2-star team, so that alone is a bigger talent deficit than lebron ever overcame.

then he beat KG in 2010 and his superior big 4 cast.





.I'm just saying you have to factor in the competition. It just wasn't the same as playing some of the teams Lebron has in the finals.


Why do Lebron fans complain about his "comp" when he had his own super-teams? Lebron's Heat were the most talented team in the league - so don't complain about the spurs...

And Lebron's Cavs were originally favored over the Warriors in 15', so they were considered better on paper.. kyrie > klay, while love is obviously > dray...

so it's on lebron for not realizing synergies with these guys and having a juggernaut that was better than curry's lesser cast..





.I'm just saying you have to factor in the competition. It just wasn't the same as playing some of the teams Lebron has in the finals.


Lebron only has an excuse once KD arrived.. So we can give him a pass for 07 and 18'... But Harden almost won with cp3, so kobe wins easily with kyrie and love in 17', who are both better than old cp3..

the KD warriors weren't unstoppable; Lebron-ball just made them look that way.. :confusedshrug: … they looked quite human against harden or the 8-seed clippers





5. That Rockets team is way better than you are giving them credit for. Kobe in place of Harden would have had a far better chance to win than he would have had in place of Lebron. But we aren't talking about replacing Harden...we are talking about replacing Lebron.


harden nearly won with cp3, so kobe wins easily in 17' with kyrie and love, both of which are better than old cp3





6. Meh...this is a weak argument. Demanding that Lebron win 70 games in the regular season so he's not viewed as a dog is the height of the one-sided nature I'm attacking. How about Kobe winning 75 games with Shaq...why the **** didn't that happen?


if there was another team at the time that was winning 70 games with less talent than Shaq's Lakers and making the Lakers underdogs, then I would knock Shaq for not winning 70 games.. but the lakers were the dominant favorite like they were supposed to be - they dominated their comp, which included the spurs, whereas lebron couldn't even come CLOSE to the win totals of guys that had weaker casts (curry, kawhi)

there's no excuse for lebron failing to win 60 games, let alone 70.. ur just making excuses for him.. he wasn't overmatched in 2016 and had the better team on paper - that's why they were originally favored in 2015 - the only reason they became underdogs is because they looked so shitty in the regular season, while the warriors were winning 70.. and they looked shitty because lebron-ball doesn't result in great teams.
.

[AussieSteve]

3ball accidentally proping up lebron in his failed attempt tO put distance between MJ and Kareem :facepalm

[3ball]

Kareem won 56 game’s on a literal expansion team....and they had the best record in the nba the year the Blazers won the title. We calling out Kareem for losing in the wcf with a one seed but ignoring that in the first year without Kareem the Lakers lost in 5 to Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers in the second round?

Much as you hate on stars teammates you should look into the game’s his guards had be the contenders in the late 70s. Two common themes of big Lakers games....

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PastFarKillerwhale-size_restricted.gif


Kareem getting triple teamed and nobody taking advantage....


And back, to back, to back turnovers:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AngelicDismalAllosaurus-size_restricted.gif





Go look at what Lionel Hollins did to the Laker guards. One game he had 8 steals by himself and Rick Barry interviews him after and talks about how their press was less effective than it had been in other game’s that series.

There is nobody who saw those game blames Kareem. But you aren’t here to be fair anyway.


I never said Kareem wasn't good... I have him ranked about 7 or 8

that's pretty good

but he's bird-fed - he needs a great perimeter player to take attention away and get him the ball

ultimately the bird-feeders > the bird-fed.. they control the game more and feed the bird-fed guys like kareem, while also having better records without the bird-fed, then vice versa

since the bird-feeders > the bird fed and have better records on their own, they're superior to kareem and bump kareem down to about #7 all-time (below the tier 1 versatile assassins, aka mj/bird/kobe; below the physical force bigs, aka wilt/shaq; and below the bird-feeders, aka magic... Duncan is debateable and kareem is still ahead of the team-hoppers/super-team seekers, aka KD/Lebron)..

^^^ so that puts kareem at about 7 all-time

[SpaceJam2]

I never said Kareem wasn't good... I have him ranked about 7 or 8

that's pretty good

but he's bird-fed - he needs a great perimeter player to take attention away and get him the ball

ultimately the bird-feeders > the bird-fed.. they control the game more and feed the bird-fed guys like kareem, while also having better records without the bird-fed, then vice versa

since the bird-feeders > the bird fed and have better records on their own, they're superior to kareem and bump kareem down to about #7 all-time (below the tier 1 versatile assassins, aka mj/bird/kobe; below the physical force bigs, aka wilt/shaq; and below the bird-feeders, aka magic... Duncan is debateable and kareem is still ahead of the team-hoppers/super-team seekers, aka KD/Lebron)..

^^^ so that puts kareem at about 7 all-time

:lol

This guy really is a secret Kobe lover

He has Kobe #2 all time :lol
He has Bird ranked as a "elite 2 way assassin" :lol
He has Kareem 7th or 8th :lol

How are you not banned? Real GM had it right.

[Da_Realist]

[QUOTE=3ball]the KD warriors weren't unstoppable; Lebron-ball just made them look that way.. :confusedshrug:

[Da_Realist]

Why should they have been favored by more? Were they stacked with talent more than the Heat?.. The Heat had 4 HOF and a much younger core (36/37/32 for duncan/ginobili/parker versus 29/29/32 for lebron/bosh/wade)

So the Spurs didn't have more talent.. they won via teamwork, which is all on lebron and lebron-ball.

heck, the 14' Spurs were taken 7 games by the 8-seeded Mavs.. So how are you making excuses for the Heat?.. you're ignoring the facts

:applause:

[Da_Realist]

Remember when the 98' Jazz swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and destroyed Duncan/Popovich's Spurs on the way to the Finals?

They were playing WAY better than the Bulls, yet no one was making excuses for the Bulls - MJ just went out there and carried his injured, weary team to the championship.

These guys don't know how to determine how good teams are. They just look at the roster and count the number of all stars and such. The 98 Jazz destroy that premise. They beat the 4 all-star Lakers, Olajuwon/Drexler/Barkley Rockets and the Robinson/Duncan Spurs that would eventually win 2 titles in the next 5 years. Most of these guys are probably 16 and don't know what they're talking about.

[SpaceJam2]

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kobe
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Kareem
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

5 months later... :lol




1) MJ
2) Bird
3) Kobe
4) Magic
5) Wilt
6) Shaq
7) Kareem
8) Duncan (seriously considering Duncan over Kareem)
9) Russell
10) Oscar
11) Lebron
12) Dr. J
13) Durant




Wilt drops from 2 to 5
Bird goes from 4 to 2
Hakeem goes from 10 to 15

In 5 months...For no reason :lol

[bigkingsfan]

the KD warriors weren't unstoppable; Lebron-ball just made them look that way.. :confusedshrug: … they looked quite human against harden or the 8-seed clippers
.
The "mighty" Pistons got taken to an elimination game in the first round.

[SpaceJam2]

The "mighty" Pistons got taken to an elimination game in the first round.

:eek:

MJ ball just made the Pistons look unbeatable for losing to them 3 years in a row :eek:

[warriorfan]

5 months later... :lol




Wilt drops from 2 to 5
Bird goes from 4 to 2
Hakeem goes from 10 to 15

In 5 months...For no reason :lol

5 months is along time. While you are jacking off in your moms basement posting nonsense 60+ times a day 3ball is critically thinking, calculating, innovating new basketball analysis. He has demonstrated basketball understanding far far far beyond your comprehension. Maybe you should stick to your low iq threads while copy pasting DPBM and other worthless statistics you got off basketball reference :lol

https://i.postimg.cc/JhVBJdHk/280-F87-C4-99-C8-45-C8-AE9-F-A5-C1-F419-BB78.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

When we hit a point that we denigrate even goat tier scorers for playing team ball we might as well end basketball discussion. The very idea that multiple players getting touches and moving the ball around, off ball positioning, posting up, reposting, drawing doubles and finding cutters makes you inferior because you didn

[ShawkFactory]

When we hit a point that we denigrate even goat tier scorers for playing team ball we might as well end basketball discussion. The very idea that multiple players getting touches and moving the ball around, off ball positioning, posting up, reposting, drawing doubles and finding cutters makes you inferior because you didn’t bring the ball up and pound the air out of it....while also making hundreds of topics opposing the ball dominant teammate diminishing guys?

It makes it pretty clear you’re just gonna find reason to hate on whoever you target at the moment with little or no concern for consistency.

Should be the 19 year old guys who don’t remember what basketball was for 70 years calling out guys for playing as one of 5 not supposed fans of “real” ball. Getting good position off the ball to catch a pass and score quickly....OR being able to score one on one at an all time elite level. An obsessed fan of Michael Jordan hating on those qualities is just amazing.


Merely being given the ball does not make you birdfed. Kareem wasn’t some stationary sky hook machine needing his handlers to put him in position. He did not play the way he appears in the same 5 sky hook highlights espn shows. He was mobile, skilled, and very very apt to create his own shots in the post or facing up.....



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BitesizedRawAyeaye-size_restricted.gif




https://thumbs.gfycat.com/VictoriousNegligibleCobra-size_restricted.gif



Kareem was a “Give him the ball and get out of the way” scorer not some play finisher that has to be put in perfect position to drop in a layup.

The whole birdfed concept in fact is nothing but a modern fans way of hating on fundamentals and off ball play to glorify flashier play.

Kareem played the right way virtually all the time and required no more setting up than anyone else who didn’t bring the ball up the floor. Having a play run to get you the ball in your spot doesn’t make you birdfed. It makes you a basketball player.

And when you couple being incredible with your off the ball positioning after having been guarded every possible way and fronted and doubled for years with among the most polished one on one games ever?

Calling it “Birdfed” is downright disrespectful. It’s emblematic of everything wrong with not just modern bigs but modern players. This bullshit is why kids who could be the next Kareem or Duncan are working on step back threes instead of their footwork 16 feet and in. Some real millennial shit.
Defenses used to be tougher. There were more nuances involved.

But you were more free to be a basketball player before the 2010s.

Derozan is is pretty weak..but he has a fvcking point. Being nit-picked like this didn’t happen before. The term “birdfed” in basketball has existed for like 4 years.

Everyone knew Kareem was unstoppable and there weren’t conditions put on it.

I mean Wilt, perhaps the most narcissistic man who’s ever dominated the game knew when to ask for help with Kareem.

[DMAVS41]

1. No, Blatt was not the next Phil Jackson and he wasn't fired because of Lebron. If anything, Lebron made him look way better than he was because very few players in history get the 15 Cavs in the position Lebron did. I agree he got screwed as a coach, but blaming that all on Lebron is unfair.

2. I've already addressed the 14 Spurs issue. I'm not saying it was impossible to win...I'm simply saying you aren't being fair to reality. Bosh/Wade was not the prime players they were after 11. This was a combination of age/health for them...and in Bosh's case...a better look at his real value. He got over-rated putting up regular season stats in Toronto. This isn't to say he wasn't really good...he absolutely was. But you are trying to make him into something he wasn't to fit your narrative.

With Bosh, he was out of the league less than 2 years later. He would play less than 100 more games in his career. He would never play a playoff game again.

To credit Lebron with having 3 other hall of famers...again, proves you aren't here to be fair. Ray Allen was 38 years old. He wasn't bad or anything, but he wasn't what you are saying he was.

3. More rampant contradictions. On one hand, you want to say the Jazz was way better than they get credit for because that was a real team...etc. But then, on the other hand, you downplay the Spurs who were built similar to the Jazz. You can't have it both ways.

4. Interesting, another inconsistency. You bring up the 14 Mavs taking the 14 Spurs to 7. Why aren't you bringing this up about the 08 Celtics getting taken to 7 twice...and then 6 in the ECF. Could it be that you aren't remotely fair and are totally biased? And, even worse, Kobe was actually favored in that series...whereas the Heat were slight underdogs in 14.

Do you see my problem with your tactics?

5. Again, why would I be surprised that MJ did something Lebron didn't or couldn't. You need to stop bringing him up with me. I already think he's the best player ever and you sound deranged when you do it as it has no relevance to this discussion.

6. Curry/Klay/Durant fits together better than Bosh/Lebron/Wade. I completely agree.

7. Again, you can lie and try to bend reality, but the Spurs were favored and were the best team all year. Factor in the diminished versions of the 3 HOF games you keep referencing...and you get the Spurs as the favorite with homecourt. The Spurs were about -130 to win...and honestly it should have been more.

In addition, Lebron played pretty well overall. If it was Jordan playing that and losing, you'd be blaming his teammates. 28/8/4 68% TS...I mean...I don't think those numbers exactly depict how good Lebron was as there was some weak defense by the Heat that is in part on Lebron, but this gets at my bigger point...winning/losing is not the best way to judge players because of circumstances matter.

8. Yes, the East was super easy and in this very thread, I've used that as an example of why we can't just blindly say "he made 8 finals in a row" without context. Can you stop repeating things I've already addressed or agreed with, please?

9. No, it isn't that simple. When Kobe won his 2 titles...he needed less because the competition was worse. That is just a fact. Even worse for your argument...none of the other teams actually had an elite player without another star. Who are these "2-star" teams? Dirk/Terry...Melo/Billups...Lebron/Mo...Dwight/Lewis...Old KG/Pierce...Wade/Marion...

No, the other star players did not have the same kind of help....and of course, let's ignore coaching and pretend Lamar Odom didn't exist as well...fantasy is fun.

10. No, it isn't debunked. Manu was hurt in the 08 series against the Spurs and I wouldn't call that a 3-star team anyway. But it was an impressive series by Kobe and the Lakers.

Unfortunately, they played an actual 3-star team in the finals and got destroyed as the favorite...again, a team that needed 7 games to get by the Hawks and the Cavs.

Now wait a minute, not only does this destroy your 2014 argument against the Spurs, but...did Lebron James...with a worse supporting cast...come closer to beating the Celtics than Kobe did?

How did that happen? How did Lebron get to a game 7 and droop 45 to almost beat them in Boston? The same competition...same year...interesting how you don't bring that up.

11. I'm not complaining...I'm simply explaining reality to you. Playing the Durant Warriors in the Finals is a lot different than playing the Pacers/Nets/Sixers/Magic/Celtics...and again, for half of those series, Kobe had it easier than Lebron ever did because of Shaq/Phil.

12. No, again, you aren't understanding how teams are built. Kobe would have had a much better chance in place of Harden. Those Rockets were designed to beat the Warriors. You shouldn't be on a basketball forum and not understand the specifics of matchups. In addition, Iggy was not right in that series and it does skew things a bit.

But, are you now arguing that Harden is better than Lebron? Because if you think Lebron had better help and Harden came closer to beating him...you kind of have to with the rigid way you think.

13. In 2015...Lebron was playing with a team that had never played together. New players and a new coach. Kyrie/Love had never even really won meaningful games before in their careers up to that point.

I know you won't care about reality, but Lebron also missed 13 games that season...and the Cavs went 3-10 without him. With him...they were 50-19.

In 2016 they won 57 games. Kyrie missed like 30 games. Again, do you care at all about reality? You expect them to do something only a couple teams ever did despite their 2nd best player missing nearly half the season?

They went 56-20 with Lebron...1-5 without him...

Prove you aren't a troll and concede this point like some of the others. Do you actually think something that happened just a few years ago is going to be easily lied about?

Just like the 08 Spurs series with Manu hurt...calling it a 3-star team...I know the league man...I don't forget obvious shit like that.

14. Do those career charts give you pause at all? The same methodology that ranks Jordan as pretty clearly the greatest peak player ever...also has Kobe's level considerably lower than Lebron's both in terms of peak and longevity.

Do you think there is any chance you aren't seeing things clearly here?

[tpols]

According to this logic Steph curry is the GOAT. he didn't need superstar big men or guards..

[LAmbruh]

https://i.ibb.co/RCTM7q4/Capture1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/8mY3F2m/Capture.jpg
damn


greater peak


LONGER peak


LeGoat you done did it again you bastard

[SpaceJam2]

damn


greater peak


LONGER peak


LeGoat you done did it again you bastard

Word. Backpicks has 3ball is a fuss because all time they ranked the top 3 as:

1. Kareem
2. LeBron
3. Jordan

And now the poor bastard is beside himself :lol

[3ball]

According to this logic Steph curry is the GOAT. he didn't need superstar big men or guards..
Not enough rings as "the man" (0), so no

[72-10]

Never in my life haev I seen Bird so high except for that guy MerkinMuffly, but I don't think you're him. I don't know how so much credit can be doled out to Bird given his paucity on defense, but I agree that he might be the second best player to play since he played.

You really sure Bird is 2? Have you considered his defensive letdowns due to his slow feet?

Here's an article from his rookie year talking about how his contemporary rival Dr. J was "running circles around him" on Philly's way to the next round of the 1980 playoffs: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1980/04/26/sixers-create-3-1-margin-as-erving-stars-celtics-one-loss-away/64b74509-953d-4e67-bd7c-9962e52faa8c/

[NBAGOAT]

These guys don't know how to determine how good teams are. They just look at the roster and count the number of all stars and such. The 98 Jazz destroy that premise. They beat the 4 all-star Lakers, Olajuwon/Drexler/Barkley Rockets and the Robinson/Duncan Spurs that would eventually win 2 titles in the next 5 years. Most of these guys are probably 16 and don't know what they're talking about.

You say this yet you just applauded 3balls comment completely downplaying the 14 spurs. Anyone who watched that year beyond how many superstars they had and one poor series vs Dallas knows they were a juggernaut. Obvious double standard that come from bias.

[72-10]

by 3ball's logic no center or post player can be the best

I mean sure Kareem had to receive entry passes into the post, but he was an excellent passer out of the post, and guys like Russell, Walton, Pau are brilliant passing big men with some of the best outlet passes we've seen

[NBAGOAT]

by 3ball's logic no center or post player can be the best

I

[FKAri]

Not enough rings as "the man" (0), so no
So Iggy has 1 ring as the man? And let me guess, Iggy >>> Pippen, right?

[3ball]

So Iggy has 1 ring as the man? And let me guess, Iggy >>> Pippen, right?
Iggy is about equal with Pippen

But remember, he was a 2nd and 3rd adjustment the warriors' were making - he was literally one of the last resorts

It shows tremendous weakness in the Warrior team that they would need to resort to a player or Iggy's low caliber to win a championship.. quite honestly, it's an indictment on curry, and proves his weakness..

but again, iggy is about equal with pippen

[SouBeachTalents]

. I've always thought that Pippen often played at a bench/role player caliber, and his weak stats frequently back that up.. But on the warriors, iggy was an actual bench player - it wouldn't surprise me to see Pippen in that role in today's game that doesn't favor his weak shooting
I guess the rest of the NBA didn't see it that way, considering they voted him onto their 50 greatest players list after just his 9th season

[AussieSteve]

I've always thought that Pippen often played at a bench/role player caliber, and his weak stats frequently back that up.. But on the warriors, iggy was an actual bench player - it wouldn't surprise me to see Pippen in that role in today's game that doesn't favor his weak shooting

I guess the rest of the NBA didn't see it that way, considering they voted him All-NBA 7 straight years, All-D 10 straight years and top 10 in MVP voting 6 straight years.

[72-10]

I guess Jordan carried Pippen during the first threepeat. I guess Pippen is at the tail end of all those votes, especially at the beginning of the 90s.

[3ball]

I guess the rest of the NBA didn't see it that way, considering they voted him onto their 50 greatest players list after just his 9th season
That's how great MJ was - he elevated a 18/6/5 player to ridiculous heights - no one else with Pippen's weak stats and many poor series (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13896112&postcount=30) is anywhere near that high..

infact, many guys would get crushed and perma-banned from all-time great lists for the kind of horrific series that Pippen often had

[AussieSteve]

That's how great MJ was - he elevated a 18/6/5 player to ridiculous heights - no one else with Pippen's weak stats and many poor series (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13896112&postcount=30) is anywhere near that high..

infact, many guys would get crushed and perma-banned from all-time great lists for the kind of horrific series that Pippen often had

And the 7 straight All-NBA, 10 straight All-D and 6 straight top 10 MVP finishes?

[3ball]

And the 7 straight All-NBA, 10 straight All-D and 6 straight top 10 MVP finishes?
Again, MJ elevated him - no one else with Pippen's weak stats and many poor series (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13896112&postcount=30) is anywhere near that high..

anyone else gets crushed and perma-banned from all-time great lists for the kind of horrific series that Pippen often had.. but mj elevated pippen, so pippen gets a pass for his horrific play

[72-10]

Scottie Pippen made a lot of mistakes

[1987_Lakers]

Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years)

:roll:

[3ball]

What's the point of bringing up old rankings from a year ago that i changed many times?

Oh I know - you can't debate me on the substance

Carry on

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll:

:roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

What's the point of bringing up old rankings from a year ago that i changed many times?

Oh I know - you can't debate me on the substance

Carry on
You doing a complete 180 on players who retired 30 years ago in less than one year shows how completely full of shit you are and how little your opinions should be taken seriously

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem>>>Jordan

[1987_Lakers]

You doing a complete 180 on players who retired 30 years ago in less than one year shows how completely full of shit you are and how little your opinions should be taken seriously

:roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

You doing a complete 180 on players who retired 30 years ago in less than one year shows how completely full of shit you are and how little your opinions should be taken seriously

:applause::oldlol:

[3ball]

You doing a complete 180 on players who retired 30 years ago in less than one year shows how completely full of shit you are and how little your opinions should be taken seriously

Any change of opinion happens in a given year, so you're just mad that I learned more and changed my mind

Face facts - Magic and Kareem can't both be top 5 given their weak Finals record (only 5-4 including asterisk rings).. so one of them must be bumped down - I ultimately chose Magic, since his ball-dominance hinders team ceiling/Finals record just like Lebron's - I have them neck-and-neck in the rankings

Ultimately, Lebron's skillset imposes spot-up roles in teammates, which doesn't develop brand or young players, and therefore needs ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. Talent-based winning has a lower long-run expectation than a combination of talent and the best brand

[Gus Hemmingway]

Any change of opinion happens in a given year, so you're just mad that I learned more and changed my mind

Face facts - Magic and Kareem can't both be top 5 given their weak Finals record (only 5-4 including asterisk rings).. so one of them must be bumped down - I ultimately chose Magic, since his ball-dominance hinders team ceiling/Finals record just like Lebron's - I have them neck-and-neck in the rankings

Ultimately, Lebron's skillset imposes spot-up roles in teammates, which doesn't develop brand or young players, and therefore needs ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. Talent-based winning has a lower long-run expectation than a combination of talent and the best brand


Does LeBron win if he only averaged 4 rebounds and 2 assists?

[Roundball_Rock]

Does LeBron win if he only averaged 4 rebounds and 2 assists?

No way--they don't get close to a chip without LeBron dominating as a playmaker and leading the team in rebounding (a PG outrebounded AD).

[3ball]

No way--they don't get close to a chip without LeBron dominating as a playmaker and leading the team in rebounding (a PG outrebounded AD).

Lebron can't play off-ball (2-4 minutes time of possession, not 8-10)

So we don't know if he can get 45 points and 52% of team points while barely touching th ball in the brand of ball....

at an 82 pace and 105 drtg

lol.. carry on

[Gus Hemmingway]

No way--they don't get close to a chip without LeBron dominating as a playmaker and leading the team in rebounding (a PG outrebounded AD).

Hmm interesting.. how did the Bulls win in 1998 with Jordan getting 4 rebounds and 2 assists with 43% FG if Pippen was “trash” as 3ball says?

[Gus Hemmingway]

Lebron can't play off-ball (2-4 minutes time of possession, not 8-10)

So we don't know if he can get 45 points and 52% of team points while barely touching th ball in the brand of ball....

at an 82 pace and 105 drtg

lol.. carry on

How did Bulls win in 1998 with Jordan getting 4/2 on 43% FG?

[TheCorporation]

You doing a complete 180 on players who retired 30 years ago in less than one year shows how completely full of shit you are and how little your opinions should be taken seriously

:roll::roll:

K.O.

[Roundball_Rock]

Hmm interesting.. how did the Bulls win in 1998 with Jordan getting 4 rebounds and 2 assists with 43% FG if Pippen was “trash” as 3ball says?

Pippen dominated the first four games (Bulls 3-1) defensively before getting hurt, wrecking the #1 Jazz offense (the Stockton they hype watched this happen and did nothing). Google 1998 finals Pippen or "Pippen Finals MVP 1998" and you will see coverage from the time about that. Stuff 1-9ball and other stains won't mention.

[3ball]

How did Bulls win in 1998 with Jordan getting 4/2 on 43% FG?

Only 3 players averaged over 30 in a Finals of under 90 pace

And MJ did it several times, with the 98' series having the slowest pace ever, only 82.0.. so based on the 2020 Finals pace and drtg, 98' mj averaged about 36.5 (if you add 10% for pace), and then another 10% due to the big gap in drtg.. so MJ averaged about 40, based on the pace and drtg of the 2020 Finals

You guys don't understand that MJ was always holding back from scoring/shooting more - he'd mastered the art of letting teammates score on possessions they could score on, and scoring himself in bailout situations or important junctures of the game.

[3ball]

Pippen dominated the first four games (Bulls 3-1) defensively before getting hurt, wrecking the #1 Jazz offense (the Stockton they hype watched this happen and did nothing). Google 1998 finals Pippen or "Pippen Finals MVP 1998" and you will see coverage from the time about that. Stuff 1-9ball and other stains won't mention.
Pippen had Paul George-like numbers - around 20/7/5 on spotty efficiency

That isn't dominating

Then he pulls his migraine crap and disappears for the last 2 games, just like the 89' ECF, 90' ECF, 92' ECSF, 96' Finals, and 97' ECF

[3ball]

Do you guys really think pippen should get more shots in the 96' Finals when he's averaging 15 on 34%?

You want to give him MORE shots??..

Or for the entire 96-98' Playoffs when he's averaging 17 on 41%?.. he should get MORE shots?

The point is that MJ had score a record percentage of team points (burden), record ppg, and record margin above 2nd option.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen dominated the first four games (Bulls 3-1) defensively before getting hurt, wrecking the #1 Jazz offense (the Stockton they hype watched this happen and did nothing). Google 1998 finals Pippen or "Pippen Finals MVP 1998" and you will see coverage from the time about that. Stuff 1-9ball and other stains won't mention.


Most players consider playing defense barely more than a necessary evil, something to be done so the fun part of the game can be resumed. Then there's Bulls forward Scottie Pippen, who can do all that as well as anyone. But his passion and talent for shutting down opponents has turned him into the defensive equivalent of his more offensive-minded teammate, Michael Jordan.

"Scottie sets the tempo defensively," Jordan said. "The more active he is, the better we are. His confidence is just as strong as mine, his competitiveness is just as strong as mine. It's like playing with a twin brother."


It was a defensive masterpiece by the Bulls, one unmatched in NBA history, not to mention Finals history. The Jazz's 54 points might have been just enough to beat the Green Bay Packers. This wasn't a basketball game, it was Kerry Wood blowing away the Houston Astros. It was Bob Gibson in the World Series. It was one man taking out a team.

Oh, sure, this was a team effort by the Bulls. Ron Harper was wonderful in steering Stockton toward the baseline to limit the options on the Jazz's famed pick-and-roll. So was Michael Jordan, who took just 14 shots but still had 24 points to lead the Bulls. But it was mostly Pippen, who has thwarted the Jazz like no other player, never mind a whole team. And his 10 points, four rebounds and four assists were only part of the story.

After the Bulls defeated the Jazz in the Finals last season, Stockton's summary was that the Jazz had no answer for Pippen. Utah is still failing that test. "The luxury for us is to have a defender like Scottie who can cover more than one situation at a time," coach Phil Jackson said.

If the Bulls win these Finals, Pippen should be the Most Valuable Player. "There have been terrific defenders in the history of the Finals," Jackson said. "You can go back to (Michael) Cooper for the Lakers, and Bobby Jones with the 76ers and other players who have played outstanding defense. The majority of those players are great one-on-one players. Scottie is able to be a one-man wrecking crew"


Pippen is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in NBA history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead.

Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Conference finals.

Whereas everyone remembers Steve Kerr's game-winning shot in Game 6 of last season's finals against the Jazz, few recall what happened moments later. Pippen deflected the inbounds pass on the other end to Toni Kukoc, who dunked to seal the victory and Chicago's fifth title


"The first time I came to Chicago, I didn't have that kind of person beside me," Jordan said. "Ever since he's been here, it's made it a lot easier for me." You can look it up. Jordan was a thrill-a-minute scoring machine, and yet in his first three years in the league the Bulls failed to achieve a winning record. Since Pippen's arrival in 1987, Chicago has had 11 straight winning seasons, and the two have developed into the best duo in the league.

Perhaps the most versatile player in the game, who is able to make his mark as a scorer, rebounder or passer, Pippen is standing out this postseason as a defender, no surprise for an eight-time member of the all-NBA defensive team. It was his ability to play the role of a "floater" defensively that set the tone for Sunday's 96-54 win over the Utah Jazz that gave Chicago a 2-1 lead in the NBA Finals. Karl Malone who, while ornery yesterday, took time to praise Pippen. "He could be the best defensive player playing."

Or one of the best ever, according to Hall of Fame coach Jack Ramsay. "I can't think of anybody as good, and there were some great defenders," Ramsay added. "He's the best. He's long, he has a great wingspan, great foot quickness, foot speed and elevation. He has the heart to take a charge from whomever, and he's unbelievable in recovering from help position to run at a shooter. He's amazing"..

[Roundball_Rock]

..

:bowdown: :cheers:

Yup, all there and recorded in real time long before anyone knew MJ stans would be crusading against Pippen. Just recording what reporters saw live so their readers could understand what happened in those games.

[3ball]

..

Pippen averaged 15 on 41% in the 98' Finals - Lebron never won a Finals with his sidekick playing like that - Lebron never beat any top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, aka Lebron never had a carry-job against a good team

[TheCorporation]

Pippen averaged 15 on 41% in the 98' Finals - Lebron never won a Finals with his sidekick playing like that - Lebron never beat any top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, aka Lebron never had a carry-job against a good team

Against?

This guy?

https://i.postimg.cc/R03hCBgJ/JeffyHornayikes.png

Literal lowest scoring worst second option in Finals history. Congrats

[3ball]

Against?

This guy?

https://i.postimg.cc/R03hCBgJ/JeffyHornayikes.png

Literal lowest scoring worst second option in Finals history. Congrats

Malone gave the Utah front line massive edge by nearly doubling pippen's scoring average, so MJ had to make that up by outplaying their backcourt by a ton.. scoring and defense

[Roundball_Rock]

Against?

This guy?

https://i.postimg.cc/R03hCBgJ/JeffyHornayikes.png

Literal lowest scoring worst second option in Finals history. Congrats

Plus this clown brings up scoring when SouBeachTalents decimated him with real time reporting about Pippen dominating that series. :lol

[3ball]

Plus this clown brings up scoring when SouBeachTalents decimated him with real time reporting about Pippen dominating that series. :lol

Real-time reporting my ass

No one thought pippen was dominating and pippen never dominated any series

This is common knowledge.. pippen had Paul George numbers... Worse actually

[3ball]

Bulls were up 3-1 because MJ was getting 33, not because pippen was as getting 20

And Utah was guarding pippen with Hornecek, and using the SF to guard mj.. they were exploiting pippen's weak offense - and many teams did that - pippen's man was always available to guard mj because, who cares about bricklayer and low-scorer pippen.. he was a liability and a joke to exploit, as we saw with Hornecek on pip

[TheCorporation]

Plus this clown brings up scoring when SouBeachTalents decimated him with real time reporting about Pippen dominating that series. :lol

Imagine whining about 15 on 45% but Hornacek did 11 on 41%

Shit is COMICAL :lol

#NotMyGoat

[3ball]

Imagine whining about 15 on 45% but Hornacek did 11 on 41%

Shit is COMICAL :lol

#NotMyGoat

pippen was never talked about and round_liar is misrepresenting the few times that he got an obligatory pat on the back - reporters couldn't wait for him to ACTUALLY dominate, so they waited for him to get Paul George numbers (above pippen's norm)

Ultimately, pippen averaged 15 on 41% in the 98' Finals and 19 on 42% in 6 Finals... 0/6 in FMVP.. so Jordan won 6 carry-job rings.. 1-man team.. if AD averaged 19 on 42%, the Lakers would lose the 1st round

[Gus Hemmingway]

pippen was never talked about and round_liar is misrepresenting the few times that he got an obligatory pat on the back - reporters couldn't wait for him to ACTUALLY dominate, so they waited for him to get Paul George numbers (above pippen's norm)

Ultimately, pippen averaged 15 on 41% in the 98' Finals and 19 on 42% in 6 Finals... 0/6 in FMVP.. so Jordan won 6 carry-job rings.. 1-man team.. if AD averaged 19 on 42%, the Lakers would lose the 1st round


How did Pippens rebounds and assists compare to Jordan?

[TheCorporation]

How did Pippens rebounds and assists compare to Jordan?

Not too good for MJ stains

https://i.postimg.cc/k4RZypFv/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg

[3ball]

Not too good for MJ stains

https://i.postimg.cc/k4RZypFv/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg


Pippen's averages



1988 RD 1 vs. CLE......10.6 on 47.1%
1988 ECSF vs. DET...... 9.4 on 45.8%

1989 RD 1 vs. CLE......15.0 on 39.8%
1989 ECF vs. DET........ 9.7 on 40.2%


1990 ECF vs DET........16.6 on 42.8%

1992 ECSF vs NYN.....16.0 on 40.2%

1993 RD 1 vs. ATL..... 15.0 on 42.2%

1995 ECSF vs ORL.....19.0 on 40.9%

1996 ECSF vs NYN.... 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA... 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS.....16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF vs. MIA..... 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECF vs IND....... 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA... 15.7 on 41.0

**17 on 41% in 96-98' Playoffs

**19 on 42% in 6 Finals

**12 on 42% vs 88-90' Pistons


MJ never had a bad series

so anytime the series was close or lost, it was pippen's poor play that caused it - see his many horrific series above.. YET HE WAS NEVER BLAMED

Pippen was worse than Paul George but no one knocked him for it because people viewed him as a secondary player and everyone knew that mj was carrying the team.. mj was expected to win every game and no one noticed or cared how Pippen did.. Pippen never took responsibility because he wasn't a real star

ultimately, mj nearly beat the 89' Pistons despite 10 on 40% from pippen - so mj would've won with anyone OTHER than pippen, thus proving he didn't need him.. and Phil wasn't there in 89' either (Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals

[tanibanana]

Does this RANK incorporate the fact that KAJ dominated the NBA in the 1970s when half the talent is playing elsewhere, ABA specifically. The likes of Gilmore, Barry, Haywood, Issel, Thompson, Gervin and lastly, arguably the 2nd best player of 70s (behind KAJ), Dr. J.

If this fact will be put in the context, KAJ further moves down.
But then again, 3Ball rank is too terrible.

[And1AllDay]

Pippen averaged 15 on 41% in the 98' Finals - Lebron never won a Finals with his sidekick playing like that - Lebron never beat any top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, aka Lebron never had a carry-job against a good team

He was 16 on 41 you lying fakkit :oldlol:

here is soul crusher for your dumb argument

#2 options in 98 finals

pippen 15.7 ppg
hornacek 10.7 ppg

pip out scored the #2 option by 47% more is that possible? has anyone ever achieved so much as #2 option?

you always cite 2016 finals kyrie but he only outscored klya by 38%

whups :oldlol: loook what you did again

[3ball]

He was 16 on 41 you lying fakkit :oldlol:

here is soul crusher for your dumb argument

#2 options in 98 finals

pippen 15.7 ppg
hornacek 10.7 ppg

pip out scored the #2 option by 47% more is that possible? has anyone ever achieved so much as #2 option?

you always cite 2016 finals kyrie but he only outscored klya by 38%

whups :oldlol: loook what you did again

Lebron's #2 outscored the Warriors' #1 though...... :confusedshrug:

That's like Pippen averaging 30 to Malone's 25

So try again.. the fraud is coming apart

[Roundball_Rock]

He was 16 on 41 you lying fakkit :oldlol:

here is soul crusher for your dumb argument

#2 options in 98 finals

pippen 15.7 ppg
hornacek 10.7 ppg

pip out scored the #2 option by 47% more is that possible? has anyone ever achieved so much as #2 option?

you always cite 2016 finals kyrie but he only outscored klya by 38%

whups :oldlol: loook what you did again

That is with Pippen being injured the final two games. :lol He was at 20 PPG through the first four games.

Not only that, Stockton arguably was their #2 option. He didn't crack double digits. He got close, but no cigar. Stockton had a 2 point game and averaged 7 PPG in Games 2-6. 2nd option. The "other" HOFer on the Jazz, with Malone/Stockton being the best duo the Bulls ever faced in the 90's. 7 PPG across five NBA finals game.

7. 7. 7. 7. Let that sink in. Yet they don't say a word about that and complain about an injured Pippen scoring more than double, as did 3rd option Kukoc. :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron's #2 outscored the Warriors' #1 though...... :confusedshrug:

That's like Pippen averaging 30 to Malone's 25

So try again.. the fraud is coming apart

I wonder why...


Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

[And1AllDay]

Lebron's #2 outscored the Warriors' #1 though...... :confusedshrug:

That's like Pippen averaging 30 to Malone's 25

So try again.. the fraud is coming apart


pippen outscored lakers #1 option in 1991 finals you noob

98 pippen outscored jazz #2 option by greatest % advantage at 47%

bran also beat a #2 option scoring deficit of 27% versus russ westbrook in 2012 finals

like always...

you lose again

[And1AllDay]

That is with Pippen being injured the final two games. :lol He was at 20 PPG through the first four games.

Not only that, Stockton arguably was their #2 option. He didn't crack double digits. He got close, but no cigar. Stockton had a 2 point game and averaged 7 PPG in Games 2-6. 2nd option. The "other" HOFer on the Jazz, with Malone/Stockton being the best duo the Bulls ever faced in the 90's. 7 PPG across five NBA finals game.

7. 7. 7. 7. Let that sink in. Yet they don't say a word about that and complain about an injured Pippen scoring more than double, as did 3rd option Kukoc. :oldlol:

:oldlol: the gig is up 1baLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

dude is crying about pips 16 ppg but jeff scored 11 and stockton 10 :oldlol: :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: the gig is up 1baLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

dude is crying about pips 16 ppg but jeff scored 11 and stockton 10 :oldlol: :roll:

:lol

The real delta is even worse because Pippen certainly was not the 2nd option in Game 6 (he was a basically a decoy). Kukoc was. Kukoc arguably was in Game 5. Pippen scored 20 PPG through 4 games and Kukoc was at 23 PPG in Games 5-6.

If you give MJ stans the benefit of the doubt, let's use Pippen for Games 1-5 and Kukoc only for 6. That comes out to 16.8 PPG, which is 73% higher than Stockton's 9.7 and 57% higher than Hornacek's.

Can you imagine if Pippen ever put up 9.7 PPG in a finals? We would never hear the end of it but all these MJ stans praise and defend Stockton. :lol Keep in mind Stockton is the greatest sidekick the Bulls' faced. He ranks far ahead of Porter, Johnson, Kemp, and even Worthy all-time.

[And1AllDay]

bird fed :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.
OP spittin facts :applause:

[MadDog]

Damn, OP ate his words. AD led the Lakers all playoffs in scoring. Was their best defender by far and, overall, their highest impact player.

https://i.postimg.cc/Hx7RRMvW/gghaga.png

Anthony Davis Jabbar indeed :bowdown:

[And1AllDay]

That is with Pippen being injured the final two games. :lol He was at 20 PPG through the first four games.

Not only that, Stockton arguably was their #2 option. He didn't crack double digits. He got close, but no cigar. Stockton had a 2 point game and averaged 7 PPG in Games 2-6. 2nd option. The "other" HOFer on the Jazz, with Malone/Stockton being the best duo the Bulls ever faced in the 90's. 7 PPG across five NBA finals game.

7. 7. 7. 7. Let that sink in. Yet they don't say a word about that and complain about an injured Pippen scoring more than double, as did 3rd option Kukoc. :oldlol:

but muh pippenz ppgz was so low :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Damn, OP ate his words. AD led the Lakers all playoffs in scoring. Was their best defender by far and, overall, their highest impact player.

https://i.postimg.cc/Hx7RRMvW/gghaga.png

Anthony Davis Jabbar indeed :bowdown:
At least AD let you guys keep that talking point, gotta cling to that 2 point scoring edge after LeBron won FMVP :oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

At least AD let you guys keep that talking point, gotta cling to that 2 point scoring edge after LeBron won FMVP :oldlol:

:oldlol:

[72-10]

I must reiterate that Bird not rotating over quickly enough sometimes on help defense and being often beaten off the dribble while on man defense due to, for lack of better words, lethargic feet is a detracting statement against Bird, 'cuz you know that's not good. Other players suffer this defensive letdown as well, but I don't think they're always called out as much for it.

[MadDog]

At least AD let you guys keep that talking point, gotta cling to that 2 point scoring edge after LeBron won FMVP :oldlol:

Checkout the On/Off data. AD's got more impact on defense and generally overall. Only scoring doe! :oldlol: What's a tougher pill to swallow, AD leading you to a championship or Jordan still having 2 more? :confusedshrug:

[Gus Hemmingway]

Checkout the On/Off data. AD's got more impact on defense and generally overall. Only scoring doe! :oldlol: What's a tougher pill to swallow, AD leading you to a championship or Jordan still having 2 more? :confusedshrug:

Why couldn’t AD outscore, outrebound, or outassist LeBron in the Finals?

[72-10]

Hey where is Hakeem in your list, OP? That guy was a considerably better two-way player than AD.

[And1AllDay]

Damn, OP ate his words. AD led the Lakers all playoffs in scoring. Was their best defender by far and, overall, their highest impact player.

https://i.postimg.cc/Hx7RRMvW/gghaga.png

Anthony Davis Jabbar indeed :bowdown:

you forgot all the things lebron led in for the 2020 playoffs, want me to share?

bran led the 2020 lakers in playoff

vorp, obm, dbm, bpm, per, rebounds, assists, steals

ad scored 2 more points over 21 games :oldlol:

next

[And1AllDay]

Why couldn’t AD outscore, outrebound, or outassist LeBron in the Finals?

couldnt hit that coveted 30 per run either

bran has 6 now
ad has 0

[MadDog]

you forgot all the things lebron led in for the 2020 playoffs, want me to share?

bran led the 2020 lakers in playoff

rebounds, assists, steals

ad scored 2 more points over 21 games :oldlol:

next

But on/off takes that all into account. Give it up to KAJ, err, I mean AD :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Checkout the On/Off data. AD's got more impact on defense and generally overall. Only scoring doe! :oldlol: What's a tougher pill to swallow, AD leading you to a championship or Jordan still having 2 more? :confusedshrug:
The same chart that has Danny Green ahead of LeBron and Rondo 9th? Don't think I'm gonna take that too seriously. Unlike the clowns on here I give LeBron & AD essentially 50/50 credit for the title, and I think LeBron being the consensus 2nd or 3rd best player of all time is gonna be much more difficult for the haters to take than Jordan being GOAT, which I wouldn't even disagree with

[72-10]

Hey where is Hakeem in your list, OP? That guy was a considerably better two-way player than LeBron.

double

[MadDog]

The same chart that has Danny Green ahead of LeBron and Rondo 9th? Don't think I'm gonna take that too seriously. Unlike the clowns on here I give LeBron & AD essentially 50/50 credit for the title, and I think LeBron being the consensus 2nd or 3rd best player of all time is gonna be much more difficult for the haters to take than Jordan being GOAT, which I wouldn't even disagree with

Same thing with any stat. :confusedshrug: Games and minutes played should be used as context. Danny Green is a role player while AD and LeBron see most of the action. And for the most part are on equal footing, hence your 50/50 rating. Didn't mean to RAIN on your guys parade though. Keep on keeping on!

[And1AllDay]

Same thing with any stat. :confusedshrug: Games and minutes played should be used as context. Danny Green is a role player while AD and LeBron see most of the action. And for the most part are on equal footing, hence your 50/50 rating. Didn't mean to RAIN on your guys parade though. Keep on keeping on!

i think well be alright

https://i.postimg.cc/rFwLL5m2/now-what.png

https://i.postimg.cc/KcJ8LG3F/2020_fmvp_lebron_james.png

you?

[Shooter]

Bird fed

[3ball]

I must confess...

this was originally a troll thread masked in truth, for the purpose of taking down Kareem, who people were calling the goat at the time on ISH

It basically backfired because even though I understand the "birdfed" narrative purported itt, my actual stance is the opposite.. guys who finish possessions control the game the most..

lebron and magic need these great iso scorers that can finish possessions like Kareem, Wade, Kyrie, Worthy or AD - elite 1st option juggernaut scorers... lebron/magic need guys to FINISH possessions.. I made a thread about their need:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486993-Magic-amp-Lebron-are-quot-pippens-quot-because-they-must-feed-finishers-like-AD-Kareem

Otoh, Jordan was the finisher for the Bulls - he was the juggernaut scorer and also the leading assist guy

[1987_Lakers]

I must confess...

this was originally a troll thread masked in truth, for the purpose of taking down Kareem, who people were calling the goat at the time on ISH

It basically backfired because even though I understand the "birdfed" narrative purported itt, my actual stance is the opposite.. guys who finish possessions control the game the most..

lebron and magic need these great iso scorers that can finish possessions like Kareem, Wade, Kyrie, Worthy or AD - elite 1st option juggernaut scorers... lebron/magic need guys to FINISH possessions.. I made a thread about their need:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486993-Magic-amp-Lebron-are-quot-pippens-quot-because-they-must-feed-finishers-like-AD-Kareem

Otoh, Jordan was the finisher for the Bulls - he was the juggernaut scorer and also the leading assist guy

:roll:

Pathetic

[Shooter]

i think well be alright

https://i.postimg.cc/rFwLL5m2/now-what.png

https://i.postimg.cc/KcJ8LG3F/2020_fmvp_lebron_james.png

you?

:roll::roll:

[Shooter]

BREAKING: MJ was birdfed by Pippen
---

https://i.postimg.cc/15ZxGtnd/DaddyPipCarriesMJ.png

https://i.postimg.cc/v83kqbKX/bango_bango.gif

[red1]

OP loses again




mj ringless without pippen

[SouBeachTalents]

I must confess...

this was originally a troll thread masked in truth, for the purpose of taking down Kareem, who people were calling the goat at the time on ISH

It basically backfired because even though I understand the "birdfed" narrative purported itt, my actual stance is the opposite.. guys who finish possessions control the game the most..

lebron and magic need these great iso scorers that can finish possessions like Kareem, Wade, Kyrie, Worthy or AD - elite 1st option juggernaut scorers... lebron/magic need guys to FINISH possessions.. I made a thread about their need:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486993-Magic-amp-Lebron-are-quot-pippens-quot-because-they-must-feed-finishers-like-AD-Kareem

Otoh, Jordan was the finisher for the Bulls - he was the juggernaut scorer and also the leading assist guy
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OpulentFrailFireant-max-1mb.gif

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I must confess...

this was originally a troll thread masked in truth, for the purpose of taking down Kareem, who people were calling the goat at the time on ISH

It basically backfired because even though I understand the "birdfed" narrative purported itt, my actual stance is the opposite.. guys who finish possessions control the game the most..

lebron and magic need these great iso scorers that can finish possessions like Kareem, Wade, Kyrie, Worthy or AD - elite 1st option juggernaut scorers... lebron/magic need guys to FINISH possessions.. I made a thread about their need:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486993-Magic-amp-Lebron-are-quot-pippens-quot-because-they-must-feed-finishers-like-AD-Kareem

Otoh, Jordan was the finisher for the Bulls - he was the juggernaut scorer and also the leading assist guy

:roll:

[3ball]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OpulentFrailFireant-max-1mb.gif

For coming clean and telling the truth?

I should be commended.. citizen of the year on ish.. :applause:

[8Ball]

I must confess...

this was originally a troll thread masked in truth, for the purpose of taking down Kareem, who people were calling the goat at the time on ISH

It basically backfired because even though I understand the "birdfed" narrative purported itt, my actual stance is the opposite.. guys who finish possessions control the game the most..

lebron and magic need these great iso scorers that can finish possessions like Kareem, Wade, Kyrie, Worthy or AD - elite 1st option juggernaut scorers... lebron/magic need guys to FINISH possessions.. I made a thread about their need:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486993-Magic-amp-Lebron-are-quot-pippens-quot-because-they-must-feed-finishers-like-AD-Kareem

Otoh, Jordan was the finisher for the Bulls - he was the juggernaut scorer and also the leading assist guy

Yes it was a troll thread just like all your LeBron threads are troll threads. And you think the actual opposite about LeBron.

LeBron wins again. :applause:

[Hey Yo]

Pippen had Paul George-like numbers - around 20/7/5 on spotty efficiency

That isn't dominating

Then he pulls his migraine crap and disappears for the last 2 games, just like the 89' ECF, 90' ECF, 92' ECSF, 96' Finals, and 97' ECF
Where was MJ in game 5 of that 89' ECF?? Down by 1, going into the 4th quarter and he still refuses to give an effort in the biggest game in franchise history.


:cry: "Collins told me to share the ball" :cry:

[3ball]

Where was MJ in game 5 of that 89' ECF?? Down by 1, going into the 4th quarter and he still refuses to give an effort in the biggest game in franchise history.


:cry: "Collins told me to share the ball" :cry:

He got 23 points but pippen basically missed the game and averaged 10 on 40% for the series.. so MJ would've won with anyone OTHER than pippen

FMVP and Piston-killer Worthy would've beaten the Pistons alongside MJ from 88-91'.. pippen simply won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery

[1987_Lakers]

Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years)


lol

[8Ball]

I must confess...

this was originally a troll thread masked in truth, for the purpose of taking down Kareem, who people were calling the goat at the time on ISH

It basically backfired because even though I understand the "birdfed" narrative purported itt, my actual stance is the opposite.. guys who finish possessions control the game the most..

lebron and magic need these great iso scorers that can finish possessions like Kareem, Wade, Kyrie, Worthy or AD - elite 1st option juggernaut scorers... lebron/magic need guys to FINISH possessions.. I made a thread about their need:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486993-Magic-amp-Lebron-are-quot-pippens-quot-because-they-must-feed-finishers-like-AD-Kareem

Otoh, Jordan was the finisher for the Bulls - he was the juggernaut scorer and also the leading assist guy

Let him eat this confession for all time. 100% troll. Doesn't believe a word he himself says.

[Hey Yo]

He got 23 points but pippen basically missed the game and averaged 10 on 40% for the series.. so MJ would've won with anyone OTHER than pippen

FMVP and Piston-killer Worthy would've beaten the Pistons alongside MJ from 88-91'.. pippen simply won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery
More lies.

MJ had 18pts in which 10 came from FTA.

[1987_Lakers]

More lies.

MJ had 18pts in which 10 came from FTA.

:lol

[3ball]

More lies.

MJ had 18pts in which 10 came from FTA.

Better than 8 points or 6 points like lebron had many times

Lebron's lows are far lower than Jordan's... You can't seem to understand that

[1987_Lakers]

Better than 8 points or 6 points like lebron had many times

Lebron's lows are far lower than Jordan's... You can't seem to understand that

So you admit you lied?

[3ball]

So you admit you lied?

I don't lie on here because the facts show mj is the goat

Before the "decision", lebron was just like Dwight, Iverson or Kidd with 1 Finals run in a weak conference

So Lebron never did anything special without multiple star teammates, or a teammate that outscores him (AD) - the star teammates elevate lebron to the championship just like he does them

And yes, Jordan had pippen.... But pippen is less than 2 stars or AD

[1987_Lakers]

He got 23 points but pippen basically missed the game and averaged 10 on 40% for the series.. so MJ would've won with anyone OTHER than pippen

FMVP and Piston-killer Worthy would've beaten the Pistons alongside MJ from 88-91'.. pippen simply won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery


I don't lie on here because the facts show mj is the goat

You lied, he had 18 points. Pathetic.

All that proves is LeBron is the GOAT and you have to resort to lying.

[StrongLurk]

I must confess...

this was originally a troll thread masked in truth, for the purpose of taking down Kareem, who people were calling the goat at the time on ISH

It basically backfired because even though I understand the "birdfed" narrative purported itt, my actual stance is the opposite.. guys who finish possessions control the game the most..

lebron and magic need these great iso scorers that can finish possessions like Kareem, Wade, Kyrie, Worthy or AD - elite 1st option juggernaut scorers... lebron/magic need guys to FINISH possessions.. I made a thread about their need:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486993-Magic-amp-Lebron-are-quot-pippens-quot-because-they-must-feed-finishers-like-AD-Kareem

Otoh, Jordan was the finisher for the Bulls - he was the juggernaut scorer and also the leading assist guy

:roll::roll::roll::roll:

[TheCorporation]

So you admit you lied?

He's pathetic.

[1987_Lakers]

lol

[Shooter]

So you admit you lied?

Body bagged

:dancin

[3ball]

So you admit you lied?

It was by memory

I don't need to lie because the facts and historical record show he's goat by far..no one is close

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs (revised enlightenment)


Lebron was a loser without a "Jordan" - an elite 1st option and equal-scoring partner to close possessions (closer)

Closers > bird-feeders (guys that bring the ball up)

Lebron/Magic are "pippens" that need a "Jordan" (closer)

[1987_Lakers]

Body bagged

:dancin

:pimp:

[8Ball]

I must confess...

this was originally a troll thread

Like all your threads.

[8Ball]

Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years)

But now AD has his Magic; he has his Oscar, just like Kareem did.. A ring is automatic barring injuries..

But this sheds light on the historical rankings - given this apparent dynamic (that AD and Kareem's teams are only as good as the guys getting them the ball), Kareem should certainly rank below Magic, and historic PG's like Magic and Oscar are more valuable than any big man not named Wilt or Shaq, whose physical dominance controlled games.

However, even though historic PG's have good teams without a dominant big man, they still seem to need an all-time big man to win a championship, while 2-way assassin-style players with scoring versatility, aka MJ, Kobe and even Kawhi seem immune from this need.

So to me, 2-way assassins with scoring versatility (MJ, Kobe) are the goats because they seemed to need the least help... So they're in the top 3 for me.. the historic PG's are next in line, with goat physical forces Wilt and Shaq coming next.. Kareem comes AFTER all these guys, and ahead of team-hoppers/super-team seekers Durant and Lebron..


1) MJ
2) Bird
3) Kobe
4) Magic
5) Wilt
6) Shaq
7) Kareem
8) Duncan (seriously considering Duncan over Kareem)
9) Russell
10) Oscar
11) Lebron
12) Dr. J
13) Durant


Something like that.. If Kawhi wins a couple rings with the Clippers, he would easily be top 10 because he fits the optimal player type of "2-way assassin with scoring versatility"

And you might be wondering how I have Bird #2 as a 2-way assassin... I think his defense is vastly underrated and he actually was a 2-way assassin.. Celtics had the #1 defense with Bird and his savvy/next-level basketball brain/instinct
.

3ball spoke some truth here. Said AD needed to be bird fed. He was right.

Said a championship was automatic barring injury. He was right.

Except the ranking. LeBron is #1 obviously.


AD needs to be bird fed and desperately needs LeBron right now. 1-3 since having 9 weeks off for rest.

[And1AllDay]

3baLLLLLLLLLLLL told us davis is birdfed by bran


we win again :hammertime:

[8Ball]

Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years)

But now AD has his Magic; he has his Oscar, just like Kareem did.. A ring is automatic barring injuries..

But this sheds light on the historical rankings - given this apparent dynamic (that AD and Kareem's teams are only as good as the guys getting them the ball), Kareem should certainly rank below Magic, and historic PG's like Magic and Oscar are more valuable than any big man not named Wilt or Shaq, whose physical dominance controlled games.

However, even though historic PG's have good teams without a dominant big man, they still seem to need an all-time big man to win a championship, while 2-way assassin-style players with scoring versatility, aka MJ, Kobe and even Kawhi seem immune from this need.

Man every sentence cuts so deep right now without LeBron.

3ball had a moment of clarity and delivered truth serum!

[TheCorporation]

Bruce...

[AirBonner]

Bad take op lmfao