[Scott Brooks] "Lebron should have 9 MVP's"

[LAmbruh]

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[bullettooth]

Give him a few Oscars for his performance as LeFlop.

[LAmbruh]

Poor Snagglebot


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[red1]

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[AlternativeAcc.]

Poor Snagglebot


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:roll: :roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

that first insight is honesty scary


thats the level of scary when he re-called an entire sequence until a TO in the '18 ECF

or when he mentioned that teammates standing at the three line need to be fed differently with the type of pass...each one has a certain type of pass they receive the best

[scuzzy]

Poor Snagglebot


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[SpaceJam2]

Poor Snagglebot


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:roll:

[AlternativeAcc.]

that first insight is honesty scary


thats the level of scary when he re-called an entire sequence until a TO in the '18 ECF

or when he mentioned that teammates standing at the three line need to be fed differently with the type of pass...each one has a certain type of pass they receive the best
GOAT mind AND GOAT body/athleticism? :biggums:


Just... GOAT. :applause:

[Manny98]

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[Shogon]

2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2017, 2018

Kevin Durant in 2014 and Curry in 2016 deserved the nods. That's about it from 2007 to 2018, really. Giannis was legit in 2019 also.

He should have 10.

[ArbitraryWater]

2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2017, 2018

Kevin Durant in 2014 and Curry in 2016 deserved the nods. That's about it from 2007 to 2018, really. Giannis was legit in 2019 also.

He should have 10.

He wasn't and shouldn't even have been close to MVP in 2007...

other than that, it actually looks correct if we ignore hype and story.

It really is 9.

I wonder if Brooks just threw out a number or went through the years.

[Lebron23]

LeBron better get the MVP this year.

[superduper]

No wonder this guy has been a trash coach his entire career :oldlol:

[Uncle Drew]

Rondo does the same in calling out opponents plays, or lack thereof. Too bad he is washed because the Lakers have two of the smartest players in a lifetime.

[FireDavidKahn]

Brooks is a smart man.

[DMAVS41]

He should not have that many MVP's based on the historical criteria.

He had no chance from 04 through 08...

He won in 09/10 and was deserving.

No chance in 11 with someone as good as Wade on the team while another team was better all year.

Won in 12/13 and was deserving.

Durant deserved it in 14.
Curry deserved it in 15/16.

Lebron didn't deserve it in 17 or 18 or 19.

So I don't know what the **** you guys are talking about unless you are referencing "best player"...and want to change the criteria for MVP.

[ArbitraryWater]

He should not have that many MVP's based on the historical criteria.

He had no chance from 04 through 08...

He won in 09/10 and was deserving.

No chance in 11 with someone as good as Wade on the team while another team was better all year.

Won in 12/13 and was deserving.

Durant deserved it in 14.
Curry deserved it in 15/16.

Lebron didn't deserve it in 17 or 18 or 19.

So I don't know what the **** you guys are talking about unless you are referencing "best player"...and want to change the criteria for MVP.

Please...

He easily could have been MVP in 2006 and 2008...

That '08 team was 0-7 without him.

He definitely should have been MVP in 2018, he worked absolute miracles that season.

He led the best record in 2015 after the back injury/trade phase and dismantled GSW in the RS.

In 2014 he was neck and neck with KD production/impact wise but KD had the hype/narrative after taking his game to the next level. He still had superior support on the season than LBJ.

I conceed 2016 and 2017 because Curry and Westbrook had historic seasons.

Not sure why playing alongside Wade should have been a hindrance to his MVP aspirations in 2011.

He still did more to his team record than Rose did.

If you remember, the 2012 Bulls held up their record just fine without Rose.

[LAmbruh]

appreciate the 5*'s

[DMAVS41]

Please...

He easily could have been MVP in 2006 and 2008...

He definitely should have been MVP in 2018, he worked absolute miracles that season.

He led the best record in 2015 after the back injury/trade phase and dismantled GSW in the RS.

In 2014 he was neck and neck with KD production/impact wise but KD had the hype/narrative after taking his game to the next level. He still had superior support on the season than LBJ.

I conceed 2016 and 2017 because Curry and Westbrook had historic seasons.

Not sure why playing alongside Wade should have been a hindrance to his MVP aspirations in 2011.

He still did more to his team record than Rose did.

If you remember, the 2012 Bulls held up their record just fine without Rose.

2006 - No way. if anyone should have won it over Nash it was Dirk.

2008 - Nope, you don't win MVP in a year like that winning 45 games. Chris Paul had a better case for MVP than Lebron did. Honestly, so did KG...his 08 season gets super under-rated in my opinion.

2014 - Narrative matters for MVP. Durant won more games and played at or close enough to Lebron's level to dethrone him. Again, the historical criteria matters...you can't ignore it.

2015 - Again, no way...Curry led his team to 67 wins as the clear cut best player. That is winning over Lebron's season every time.

2018 - Nah, you aren't winning over Harden...who was amazing...and his team won 15 more games. Like, are you serious? You actually think Lebron should have won over Harden in 18? Harden's team won 65 games....15 more games in a tougher conference. Come on now...

[Nike D'Antoni]

I wonde what goes thru Durant head when he reads this

[RRR3]

He should not have that many MVP's based on the historical criteria.

He had no chance from 04 through 08...

He won in 09/10 and was deserving.

No chance in 11 with someone as good as Wade on the team while another team was better all year.

Won in 12/13 and was deserving.

Durant deserved it in 14.
Curry deserved it in 15/16.

Lebron didn't deserve it in 17 or 18 or 19.

So I don't know what the **** you guys are talking about unless you are referencing "best player"...and want to change the criteria for MVP.
LeBron was second in MVP voting in 2006 but he had “no chance”. Ok.

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=RRR3]LeBron was second in MVP voting in 2006 but he had

[RRR3]

He didn't. Nash won in a landslide.

Getting 2nd and winning are far away from each other on this stuff based on the historical criteria.

Regardless, the argument is that he deserved it...and he didn't...if anyone has a gripe about that year based on the history of the award...it is Dirk.
31.4/7.0/6.6 on 56.8 TS%, led the league in BPM and VORP, led absolute trash to 50-32. No case doe.

[DMAVS41]

31.4/7.0/6.6 on 56.8 TS%, led the league in BPM and VORP, led absolute trash to 50-32. No case doe.

Again, you seem ignorant to the historical standard.

Narrative matters...that is why Nash won so easily. He blew through his expectations with Amare out. He also won more games in a tougher conference.

You make it sound like I'm arguing Lebron wasn't great that year. He absolutely was...unfortunately for this MVP debate...it isn't just about level of play.

Kobe also had a great year and got more first place votes than Lebron.

Dirk did 27/9/3 59% TS and got his team to 60 wins in a tougher conference. That, historically, usually wins over what Lebron did.

So, no...Lebron isn't winning 06. Doesn't mean he wasn't great...doesn't mean he was worse than Nash or Dirk or Kobe...although I would take Dirk/Kobe over Lebron as players back then...

We are talking about winning MVP. And you need to actually look at what historically wins most of the time if you are arguing he should have won more MVP's...just a thought.

[dreamshake]

DMAVS single handedly emasculating all the LeBron Stans in this thread.

:bowdown:

[ArbitraryWater]

2006 - No way. if anyone should have won it over Nash it was Dirk.

2008 - Nope, you don't win MVP in a year like that winning 45 games. Chris Paul had a better case for MVP than Lebron did. Honestly, so did KG...his 08 season gets super under-rated in my opinion.

2014 - Narrative matters for MVP. Durant won more games and played at or close enough to Lebron's level to dethrone him. Again, the historical criteria matters...you can't ignore it.

2015 - Again, no way...Curry led his team to 67 wins as the clear cut best player. That is winning over Lebron's season every time.

2018 - Nah, you aren't winning over Harden...who was amazing...and his team won 15 more games. Like, are you serious? You actually think Lebron should have won over Harden in 18? Harden's team won 65 games....15 more games in a tougher conference. Come on now...


You and your historical standard which doesn't actually exist :oldlol:

If LeBron had won it in '06, it wouldn't have gone against any historical standard.

It was just a matter of not giving him the MVP too early. Earning his stripes for a longer amount of time, so to speak.

If Dirk or Nash had replicated the same production LeBron did and LeBron had replicated theirs, you know just as well as me it wouldn't have led to any lesser team success, and you know just as well as me Dirk or Nash would have still gotten the MVP over 3rd-year LeBron.

It was "their time" to win it.

So again, your only safety is in "historical standard", when it doesn't even come true here.

Fck yes I think he should have won the MVP in 2018.

Plenty of people have won the MVP not winning the most games. In fact, thats the typical occurence.

That very same Cavaliers team won 19 games the next year. Oh Love didn't play?

He's barely adding any games. This Cavaliers team is on pace to win 30 games.

LeBron added AT LEAST 20 games to that team.

You didn't even adress 2011.

Your only fall-back arguments for 2011 and 2014 are "well narrative does matter".

It matters, to a flaw. It's not an actual reason to consider.

No voter will tell you "yes, narrative is considered". It isn't. Not intentionally.

Its a human flaw that sways us more to one side.

Stop falling back on stuff that cannot be substantiated, because LeBron wins with everything that can be substantiated.

[red1]

9 is the conservative estimate

[DMAVS41]

You and your historical standard which doesn't actually exist :oldlol:

If LeBron had won it in '06, it wouldn't have gone against any historical standard.

It was just a matter of not giving him the MVP too early. Earning his stripes for a longer amount of time, so to speak.

If Dirk or Nash had replicated the same production LeBron did and LeBron had replicated theirs, you know just as well as me it wouldn't have led to any lesser team success, and you know just as well as me Dirk or Nash would have still gotten the MVP over 3rd-year LeBron.

It was "their time" to win it.

So again, your only safety is in "historical standard", when it doesn't even come true here.

Fck yes I think he should have won the MVP in 2018.

Plenty of people have won the MVP not winning the most games. In fact, thats the typical occurence.

That very same Cavaliers team won 19 games the next year. Oh Love didn't play?

He's barely adding any games. This Cavaliers team is on pace to win 30 games.

LeBron added AT LEAST 20 games to that team.

You didn't even adress 2011.

Your only fall-back arguments for 2011 and 2014 are "well narrative does matter".

It matters, to a flaw. It's not an actual reason to consider.

No voter will tell you "yes, narrative is considered". It isn't. Not intentionally.

Its a human flaw that sways us more to one side.

Stop falling back on stuff that cannot be substantiated, because LeBron wins with everything that can be substantiated.

I disagree with pretty much everything here.

But, part of your own post makes my argument. Narrative matters...the "their time" thing is part of that narrative. You can disagree with it, but sorry...that is absolutely part of the historical standard.

And, no...what Dirk did in 06 usually trumps what Lebron did. 10 more wins while also playing great and leading the league in win shares and ws/48 iirc.

Shit, you act like Lebron was clearly the best player back then or something. Kobe got more first place votes. He wasn't winning in 06 given what Nash/Dirk/Kobe did that year...

Winning matters for the MVP a ton unless there is a counter-narrative...like Russ without Durant...and Nash without Amare.

But, yea...there is not historical standard...even though it is almost always reflected in the voting.

Lebron has 4 MVP's...maybe you could argue he should have 5 or something...but 9 or 10 or whatever you are saying...just no...you couldn't be more wrong.

[ArbitraryWater]

I disagree with pretty much everything here.

But, part of your own post makes my argument. Narrative matters...the "their time" thing is part of that narrative. You can disagree with it, but sorry...that is absolutely part of the historical standard.

And, no...what Dirk did in 06 usually trumps what Lebron did. 10 more wins while also playing great and leading the league in win shares and ws/48 iirc.

Shit, you act like Lebron was clearly the best player back then or something. Kobe got more first place votes. He wasn't winning in 06 given what Nash/Dirk/Kobe did that year...

Winning matters for the MVP a ton unless there is a counter-narrative...like Russ without Durant...and Nash without Amare.

But, yea...there is not historical standard...even though it is almost always reflected in the voting.

Lebron has 4 MVP's...maybe you could argue he should have 5 or something...but 9 or 10 or whatever you are saying...just no...you couldn't be more wrong.

I'm not saying LeBron was the MVP in 2006.

I'm saying he could have been.

It's you who is trying to say there is no chance he could have been the MVP, to marginalize his overall count.

Every single time LeBron won the MVP it was clear-cut. Every single time. And then he's been involved in about 5-6 50-50 cases and never got it.

Whenever narrative is the reason someone won, its a reason why it was a wrong decision

:facepalm

How do you not understand this?

Narrative is not an official part of the voting process.

Its not something anyone will purposely take into account.

"Oh they're pretty close, in fact I'm leaning B, but A's got the narrative so..." that doesn't exist.

Its a flaw.

I've never seen you this unreasonable.

You can't debunk a single year with anything substantial.

When your main go-to responses is a frail historical standard (in no year would LeBron winning have been against historical standard, only 2018 would have been rare but a lesser Michael Jordan won an MVP winning 50 games with a peak Bird around) and narrative.

[DMAVS41]

Narrative is absolutely part of the decision...whether you like it or not...this is a fact.

I thought you claimed in this thread he should have won 9...if you are now saying he shouldn't...ok

Hype and story was why Nash won in 06, but he wasn't the reason Lebron lost. Dirk would have likely won over Lebron if Nash just didn't exist...or Kobe would have.

Like I said...you can argue a bit around the edges, but Lebron isn't beating out Harden in 18 like you've claimed.

Winning matters...he did not deserve MVP in 18.

Just like all the other years you listed. What he did does not usually win historically.

I'm not sure even what your argument is or the confusion at this point.

Holy shit dude...I debunked every single year you listed. I'm not doing it again.

[coined]

DMAVS41, You think Doncic deserves Player of Month on Lebron.

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS41, You think Doncic deserves Player of Month on Lebron.

Probably.

I'd have to go look at everything, but despite Luka being hype a little too much...what he and the Mavs did last month was pretty insane.