What's the argument for LeBron NOT being the GOAT

[AlternativeAcc.]

If LeBron has GOAT impact/ability to carry team, GOAT ring/peak, and GOAT longevity then what's the argument

[Mr. Jabbar]

https://origendelhabla.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/pantalon_3-piernas.png

[Bronbron23]

If LeBron has GOAT impact/ability to carry team, GOAT ring/peak, and GOAT longevity then what's the argument
Well hes not the goat in any of those categories. The closest would be longevity but im not sure if he even has that. Mj at the same age won a scoring title,won mvp,first team defence, fmvp and a chip. Athletically speaking lebron has the goat longevity though ill give u that.

That said the argument is that mj was pretty much better or very close to lebron in every intangible amd category you can think of but he was way better in a couple categories that lebron was relatively weak in. Post play, mid range and off ball movement were three things that lebron isnt very good at it. In the last few years his mid range has been much better but overall its way behind mj.

These three advantages allowed mj to play within an offence much better. He could still dominate the game and get great stats without monopolizing the ball which allowed for much better ball movement and consequently wins.

The closest lebron came to doing this was in miami where he didn't have his greatest stats but its when he had his most wins.

[SpaceJam2]

He was a better defender than MJ, played on less talented teams against tougher competition and broke every single one of this playoff records in the same amount of playoff appearances (13 each). MJ has no case over LeBron except rings, but then again...Russell has 11 so there's that

[AlternativeAcc.]

Well hes not the goat in any of those categories. The closest would be longevity but im not sure if he even has that. Mj at the same age won a scoring title,won mvp,first team defence, fmvp and a chip. Athletically speaking lebron has the goat longevity though ill give u that.

That said the argument is that mj was pretty much better or very close to lebron in every intangible amd category you can think of but he was way better in a couple categories that lebron was relatively weak in. Post play, mid range and off ball movement were three things that lebron isnt very good at it. In the last few years his mid range has been much better but overall its way behind mj.

These three advantages allowed mj to play within an offence much better. He could still dominate the game and get great stats without monopolizing the ball which allowed for much better ball movement and consequently wins.

The closest lebron came to doing this was in miami where he didn't have his greatest stats but its when he had his most wins.
So the argument is to lie and pretend LeBron isn't the GOAT in certain categories despite indisputable evidence that he is..

interesting


Also, why are you comparing MJ's 13th season to LeBron's 17th? are you that desperate :roll:

[AlternativeAcc.]

He was a better defender than MJ, played on less talented teams against tougher competition and broke every single one of this playoff records in the same amount of playoff appearances (13 each).MJ has no case over LeBron except rings, but then again...Russell has 11 so there's that
Precisely

That means MJ has NO argument for GOAT, even if you do use the faulty ring argument (which isnt a real argument to begin with)

[Bronbron23]

So the argument is to lie and pretend LeBron isn't the GOAT in certain categories despite indisputable evidence that he is..

interesting


Also, why are you comparing MJ's 13th season to LeBron's 17th? are you that desperate :roll:
Im not lying.The carrying the team category is subjective depending on what your looking for. The peak category is close but mjs peak was better and i already gave u the argument for longevity.

And Why are u comparing the sesson compared to age? Age is the way more accurate comparison

[ImKobe]

Gets outplayed by 20 y.o white Euros.

[warriorfan]

Jason Terry

[AirFederer]

Luca

[knicksman]

Who would you rather be? A guy like lebron who averages triple doubles or a guy like kobe who is the one being relied to when the going gets tough, who is being relied to for last shots. Coz for me, triple doubles means nothing if my team doesnt trust me in crunch time. Its like winning 73 games but not winning the ring.

[Leviathon1121]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1/all-nbarank-1

[Doomsday Dallas]

https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-you-play-to-win-the-game-hello-you-play-to-win-the-game-herman-edwards-57-97-86.jpg

[Bawkish]

getting DP'ed by J. Terry & JJ Barea

[SpaceJam2]

This is all I know:



https://i.postimg.cc/wj650XHS/1557790886267.jpg



CASE CLOSED

[HylianNightmare]

Losing finals record, pretty simple

[Smoke117]

Michael Jordan. Kareem Abdul Jabbar. He's probably 3rd, though.

[SpaceJam2]

This is all I know:



https://i.postimg.cc/wj650XHS/1557790886267.jpg



CASE CLOSED


Response?

[Overdrive]

Response?

Faulty logic, selective stats and straight lies.

[Micku]

I think honestly, it's been slightly disappointing an didn't live up to the potential he had with his teams. It's been a up and down thing with him. His lowest, being lower than most superstars that I can think of with 2011 Heat. His highest being 2016.

The fact that he teamed up with the Wade and Bosh, I always felt was a bit of a blow. And that he lost badly in 2011. Even in 2013 where the Heat won, LeBron played poorly or the Spurs just figured it out. Dared him to shoot, and he couldn't do it. He came through in the last two games, but it was still eh.

His time with the Cavs are better offensively. Defensively suffered.

MJ was the best consistently on the two way player. Best scorer, one of the best wing defenders. He dominated his era more so than other top players. Like when Wilt and Russell were against each other. Wilt dominated the stats, while Russell got the rings. Kareem was great, but his prime was in the 70s. His longevity was amazing, but when he won the bulk of his rings, he was arguably not the best player. It was 1a and 1b. And by the end of the last two, Magic was the best player.

MJ was the best throughout.

Statistically, LBJ and MJ are pretty much on par, but with LeBron leading several advance stats. Some of it is due to longevity, but in return, that's what makes MJ so great. He did it at a pace which was pretty crazy. And he was out most of the year in his second year, and retired a year and half in his prime. He accomplish more in less time than LeBron James. It took LeBron more time to pass him up points, some advance stats, and he still not there in terms of accolades. No DPOY, not enough MVPs, not enough rings or finals mvp, and etc.

LeBron has something over most stars. That's his longevity. He is a machine. He is still playing at a level that makes him top 3. MJ longevity is great too, but not as good as LeBron I would say. You could argue about the rules in today's game, coaching, and other stuff help the perimeter players nowadays compared to back then. And that's true. But it's still impressive.

But comparing them saying MJ wouldn't have done this or LeBron James wouldn't have done this is more juicy and fruitful discussion than it have any merit. You have to take into context the the rules and play styles, and they are too different in the 80s to now. But there are holes within LeBron James that I personally do not like and I feel like he isn't as skilled as MJ, Kobe or KD when it comes to scoring moves. He has a more limited move set, but unstoppable due to his athletic ability. FT shooting is a problem. Shooting in general is spotty.

There are a few players who have case for GOAT.

MJ cuz he dominated the league unlike no other. He did more in less time than LeBron. Got the best stats of his era, and some stats are still unbroken, and won at the same time. Maximize his team potential.

Kareem, longevity. Won at every level. Was a top player for like 16 years. Hold the records.

LeBron prove that he could carry a team to the finals who has no business of being there. He may surpass Kareem longevity, and setting records because of his consistent level of play. Dude is like the John Cena of the NBA lol

There are others tho.

I don't think there is a GOAT. I think there are tiers. LeBron belong in that GOAT tier to me. I mean, honestly. MJ at his peak, LeBron at his peak, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, and etc. That's some of the best individual basketball you'll ever see in their era. They never played against each other peak to peak, so it's hard to say. Everything else comes with context. Who can carry their team, who maximize the most, who is the best individual player, who win the most? Some of those questions mean more to ppl than others. All are subjective to the person.

[ImKobe]

Faulty logic, selective stats and straight lies.

This.

More Playoff games since 1st rounds aren't BO5 anymore
0 game-winners/tying shots in 9 Finals
3/9 Finals record
most Finals losses in the modern era
lost multiple times with HCA/1st seed in the EC
has beaten less 50+ win teams than Kobe, MJ and Duncan, despite playing in more games.

Record vs 50+win playoff teams


Kobe 25-10

Jordan 20-7

Shaq 18-9

Duncan 18-10

Lebron 15-10

[superduper]

The fact that Bran stans have the innate need to scream it at the top of their lungs 20x a day to eachother until they convince themselves of it.

In one word, insecurity.

[jstern]

Just of the top of my head, 2011, getting embarrassed by Dwight Howard while having the team with the best record in the league and being the league's MVP. Better players who dominated in the clutch and never lost as favorites, such as Michael Jordan.

Lebron is good, just not GOAT good.

[SpaceJam]

Who would you rather be? A guy like lebron who averages triple doubles or a guy like kobe who is the one being relied to when the going gets tough, who is being relied to for last shots. Coz for me, triple doubles means nothing if my team doesnt trust me in crunch time. Its like winning 73 games but not winning the ring.

Would rather be known as someone who's generally ranked in the lower half of the top 10, even as low as 12th instead of a cemented top 3 player

knicksman, you've done it again

[3ball]

.
MJ's career PER peaked over 30, while Lebron's peaked at 28, and Backpicks says MJ had the higher peak:


https://i.ibb.co/qCTdqG8/JJ.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/8mY3F2m/Capture.jpg


And Lebron has never carried a bad team - he missed the playoffs 3 times with lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year), so he never carried bad teams to low seeds like MJ, and therefore never faced tough 1st round matchups like MJ (8 vs 1 seed).. He infact only made the playoffs with good team/high seeds his entire career, which gave him easy 1st round matchups, thereby padding his early career playoff resume..

So MJ had the goat peak and carried teams more - lebron only has longevity, which means nothing
.

[knicksman]

Would rather be known as someone who's generally ranked in the lower half of the top 10, even as low as 12th instead of a cemented top 3 player

knicksman, you've done it again

sorry, I dont need the approval of the media. The approval of the goat, the other greats is all I need. And if the goat says only kobe deserves to be compared to me then why I should care about the media. Quality > quantity. The opinion of the goat is more than enough to beat all medias opinion

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Just of the top of my head, 2011, getting embarrassed by Dwight Howard while having the team with the best record in the league and being the league's MVP. Better players who dominated in the clutch and never lost as favorites, such as Michael Jordan.

Lebron is good, just not GOAT good.

Orlando was missing their star guard too and had to start a literal AND-1 player as PG:roll: :roll: Cavs were HEAVY favorites with HCA

Difference is Dwight played on both ends and was dominant on O and D

Not to mention what happened next postseason with the Celtics with Cavs also as heavy favorites

Then he "dominated" a sht conference with 2 other all-stars

Paul George was by far the 2nd best playoff performer the Least had during Brans run.

George goes West and upset b2b 1st rounds as the favorite outplayed by Joe fcking Ingles then CJ Mccollum

The best Least teams were Celtics team led by a 5'6 player who was a bench warmer in the West
Then a Craptors team with Defrozen who's arguably the worst playoff performer of all-time consistently shtting the bed getting shut down by JR Smith. Now we see Defrozen in a real conference......

Lebrons playoff record VS Least teams VS West teams from 2011-2018

VS Least: 96-27 (78%)
VS West: 18-27 (40%)

That is a ****ing insane stat. During his finals streak this dude lost just as many games to West playoff teams as Least...... despite playing 78 more games VS Least teams.

That just shows the massive discrepancy in the conferences. And Bran still needed 2 all-stars, 2 of the best 5 players in the conference on his team to have real success

Then he goes West and misses the playoffs......

Not to mention him only being a real impact defender under Spo from 11-13 who's one of the GOAT defensive coaches. His other best seasons were 09/10 and be was able to get by on not playing D and turning it up in the playoffs against joke meme teams with glaring holes like Defrozen Craptors or midget led Celts or Playoff P Pacers:facepalm

He's a complete fraud for anyone that can analyze the game with nuance and objectivity.

[Gileraracer]

If LeBron has GOAT impact/ability to carry team, GOAT ring/peak, and GOAT longevity then what's the argument


GOAT ability to carry a team? :biggums:



Then why this nikku needed 3 superstar teams so far and didn't win shit without one?

[sportjames23]

Just of the top of my head, 2011, getting embarrassed by Dwight Howard while having the team with the best record in the league and being the league's MVP. Better players who dominated in the clutch and never lost as favorites, such as Michael Jordan.

Lebron is good, just not GOAT good.

Period. :cheers:

[Walk on Water]

What

[Bronbron23]

Response?
Again this is just cherry picking at its finest. I notuce lebron stans make a habit of this on this forum. Some of those points are just dumb.

Elimination games? In his prime Mj was to good to let it get to that point.

Consecutive finals? It was the weak east. If bron played in the better conference like mj did he would of only made the finsls 3 times in total.
More points and steals? Mj scored more points and had more steals per game so lebron olnly has more points and stesls because he played more games.

To put this in perspective for you lets say we had a contest of who could f*ck the most bitches and every year for 15 years you f*cked more bitches then me. Then you got married and settled down while i kept f*ucking bitches for the next few years so eventually i ended up f*cking more b*tches than you in total. Who would you consider the better ladies man between the 2?

And yes i know your a fakkit but just pretend like your a real man whos f*cked women and try to answer the question.

[Hey Yo]

[QUOTE=Walk on Water]What

[Gileraracer]

At quitting in his prime to rest up mentally and physically.


LeBron's 3 rings >>>>>>> MJ's 3 rings

Just that Jordan has 6.

All with one team, didn't need two superstar collusion :eek:

[TheMan]

He was a better defender than MJ, played on less talented teams against tougher competition and broke every single one of this playoff records in the same amount of playoff appearances (13 each). MJ has no case over LeBron except rings, but then again...Russell has 11 so there's that
:roll:

LeBron hasn't played defense in at least half a decade, MJ was still making defensive first teams in his mid 30s, he has a DPOY, LeBron has none. LeBron has played with way more All Stars and several FMVPs, MJ's only constant All Star teammate was Pippen. Tougher competition? MJ faced better competition in 3 of the 4 playoffs rounds, LeBron has faced tougher Finals opponents and that's because he was feasting in the LEeastern Conference all those years, had he been out West, no way he makes 8 straight Finals. It's been easier to score now for a while, defense has been pretty much eliminated in the NBA so a lot of LeBron's playoffs records should be taken with a grain of salt.

Peak vs peak, MJ was the superior player easily...only argument LBJ has is longevity TBH

[sammichoffate]

Can we ban this guy already?

[Hey Yo]

Just that Jordan has 6.

All with one team, didn't need two superstar collusion :eek:
Nobody counts his 3 rest up rings, Mr. Sweeped

[Gileraracer]

Nobody counts his 3 rest up rings, Mr. Sweeped

Wrong, everybody except you retarded Lebron c0cksuckers count them :lol

[BigShotBob]

Orlando was missing their star guard too and had to start a literal AND-1 player as PG:roll: :roll: Cavs were HEAVY favorites with HCA

Difference is Dwight played on both ends and was dominant on O and D

Not to mention what happened next postseason with the Celtics with Cavs also as heavy favorites

Then he "dominated" a sht conference with 2 other all-stars

Paul George was by far the 2nd best playoff performer the Least had during Brans run.

George goes West and upset b2b 1st rounds as the favorite outplayed by Joe fcking Ingles then CJ Mccollum

The best Least teams were Celtics team led by a 5'6 player who was a bench warmer in the West
Then a Craptors team with Defrozen who's arguably the worst playoff performer of all-time consistently shtting the bed getting shut down by JR Smith. Now we see Defrozen in a real conference......

Lebrons playoff record VS Least teams VS West teams from 2011-2018

VS Least: 96-27 (78%)
VS West: 18-27 (40%)

That is a ****ing insane stat. During his finals streak this dude lost just as many games to West playoff teams as Least...... despite playing 78 more games VS Least teams.

That just shows the massive discrepancy in the conferences. And Bran still needed 2 all-stars, 2 of the best 5 players in the conference on his team to have real success

Then he goes West and misses the playoffs......

Not to mention him only being a real impact defender under Spo from 11-13 who's one of the GOAT defensive coaches. His other best seasons were 09/10 and be was able to get by on not playing D and turning it up in the playoffs against joke meme teams with glaring holes like Defrozen Craptors or midget led Celts or Playoff P Pacers:facepalm

He's a complete fraud for anyone that can analyze the game with nuance and objectivity.

Huge fan of Lebron (not even trolling) but that's an insane stat right there.

[Hey Yo]

Wrong, everybody except you retarded Lebron c0cksuckers count them :lol
Why the meltdown, Mr. Sweeped??

Only a matter of time till people put MJ's resting up for 2yrs into proper perspective and realize he only has 3 legit rings.

[Hey Yo]

:roll:

LeBron hasn't played defense in at least half a decade, MJ was still making defensive first teams in his mid 30s, he has a DPOY, LeBron has none. LeBron has played with way more All Stars and several FMVPs, MJ's only constant All Star teammate was Pippen. Tougher competition? MJ faced better competition in 3 of the 4 playoffs rounds, LeBron has faced tougher Finals opponents and that's because he was feasting in the LEeastern Conference all those years, had he been out West, no way he makes 8 straight Finals. It's been easier to score now for a while, defense has been pretty much eliminated in the NBA so a lot of LeBron's playoffs records should be taken with a grain of salt.

Peak vs peak, MJ was the superior player easily...only argument LBJ has is longevity TBH
James played a total of 2 years with All-NBA players (Varejao-defense 2010) and Wade 2011. Pippen was All-NBA for 8yrs straight and most were on both ends of the floor. Rodman also All-Defensive plus rebound King all 3yrs with MJ.

Regardless of conference, no chance MJ makes 8 Finals in a row. He couldn't even play more than 7 straight seasons w/o needing to quit to rest up.

It looks like it's easier to score to you because you're stuck in the 90's. You're use to seeing 72-67 Finals scores and teams putting up 54 total points in the Finals.

[Leviathon1121]

James played a total of 2 years with All-NBA players (Varejao-defense 2010) and Wade 2011. Pippen was All-NBA for 8yrs straight and most were on both ends of the floor. Rodman also All-Defensive plus rebound King all 3yrs with MJ.

Regardless of conference, no chance MJ makes 8 Finals in a row. He couldn't even play more than 7 straight seasons w/o needing to quit to rest up.

It looks like it's easier to score to you because you're stuck in the 90's. You're use to seeing 72-67 Finals scores and teams putting up 54 total points in the Finals.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1/all-nbarank-1

[SouBeachTalents]

James played a total of 2 years with All-NBA players (Varejao-defense 2010) and Wade 2011. Pippen was All-NBA for 8yrs straight and most were on both ends of the floor. Rodman also All-Defensive plus rebound King all 3yrs with MJ.

Regardless of conference, no chance MJ makes 8 Finals in a row. He couldn't even play more than 7 straight seasons w/o needing to quit to rest up.

It looks like it's easier to score to you because you're stuck in the 90's. You're use to seeing 72-67 Finals scores and teams putting up 54 total points in the Finals.
Wade was All-NBA 2011-13. Ditto Kyrie in 2015

[Hey Yo]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1/all-nbarank-1
Article from Feb. 10th, 2016


meh. :confusedshrug:

[TheMan]

James played a total of 2 years with All-NBA players (Varejao-defense 2010) and Wade 2011. Pippen was All-NBA for 8yrs straight and most were on both ends of the floor. Rodman also All-Defensive plus rebound King all 3yrs with MJ.

Regardless of conference, no chance MJ makes 8 Finals in a row. He couldn't even play more than 7 straight seasons w/o needing to quit to rest up.

It looks like it's easier to score to you because you're stuck in the 90's. You're use to seeing 72-67 Finals scores and teams putting up 54 total points in the Finals.:biggums:

This post is so dumb I'm just gonna ignore it

:roll:

[Hey Yo]

Wade was All-NBA 2011-13. Ditto Kyrie in 2015
You're correct, my overlook.

Wade did miss a combined 30gms in 12 and 13. Plus, Kyrie only played 3 games in the ECF and Finals combined in 2015.

[Hey Yo]

:biggums:

This post is so dumb I'm just gonna ignore it

:roll:
Why are facts dumb to you?

[Leviathon1121]

Article from Feb. 10th, 2016


meh. :confusedshrug:
Nothing has changed based on any poll...ever 🤷*♂️

[SpaceJam2]

Why are facts dumb to you?

TheMan is a blind, MJ loving moron with no sense of judgement. He is severely lacking any semblance of analytical skills, likely due to his poorly developed brain and therefore critically limited mental capacity.

[RealSkipBayless]

TheMan is a blind, MJ loving moron with no sense of judgement. He is severely lacking any semblance of analytical skills, likely due to his poorly developed brain and therefore critically limited mental capacity.
I hear he is also into trannies

[SpaceJam2]

I hear he is also into trannies

You heard correct, my friend. In fact, his very avatar picture is that of a transvestite (i.e. Tranny).

[elementally morale]

I think honestly, it's been slightly disappointing an didn't live up to the potential he had with his teams. It's been a up and down thing with him. His lowest, being lower than most superstars that I can think of with 2011 Heat. His highest being 2016.

The fact that he teamed up with the Wade and Bosh, I always felt was a bit of a blow. And that he lost badly in 2011. Even in 2013 where the Heat won, LeBron played poorly or the Spurs just figured it out. Dared him to shoot, and he couldn't do it. He came through in the last two games, but it was still eh.

His time with the Cavs are better offensively. Defensively suffered.

MJ was the best consistently on the two way player. Best scorer, one of the best wing defenders. He dominated his era more so than other top players. Like when Wilt and Russell were against each other. Wilt dominated the stats, while Russell got the rings. Kareem was great, but his prime was in the 70s. His longevity was amazing, but when he won the bulk of his rings, he was arguably not the best player. It was 1a and 1b. And by the end of the last two, Magic was the best player.

MJ was the best throughout.

Statistically, LBJ and MJ are pretty much on par, but with LeBron leading several advance stats. Some of it is due to longevity, but in return, that's what makes MJ so great. He did it at a pace which was pretty crazy. And he was out most of the year in his second year, and retired a year and half in his prime. He accomplish more in less time than LeBron James. It took LeBron more time to pass him up points, some advance stats, and he still not there in terms of accolades. No DPOY, not enough MVPs, not enough rings or finals mvp, and etc.

LeBron has something over most stars. That's his longevity. He is a machine. He is still playing at a level that makes him top 3. MJ longevity is great too, but not as good as LeBron I would say. You could argue about the rules in today's game, coaching, and other stuff help the perimeter players nowadays compared to back then. And that's true. But it's still impressive.

But comparing them saying MJ wouldn't have done this or LeBron James wouldn't have done this is more juicy and fruitful discussion than it have any merit. You have to take into context the the rules and play styles, and they are too different in the 80s to now. But there are holes within LeBron James that I personally do not like and I feel like he isn't as skilled as MJ, Kobe or KD when it comes to scoring moves. He has a more limited move set, but unstoppable due to his athletic ability. FT shooting is a problem. Shooting in general is spotty.

There are a few players who have case for GOAT.

MJ cuz he dominated the league unlike no other. He did more in less time than LeBron. Got the best stats of his era, and some stats are still unbroken, and won at the same time. Maximize his team potential.

Kareem, longevity. Won at every level. Was a top player for like 16 years. Hold the records.

LeBron prove that he could carry a team to the finals who has no business of being there. He may surpass Kareem longevity, and setting records because of his consistent level of play. Dude is like the John Cena of the NBA lol

There are others tho.

I don't think there is a GOAT. I think there are tiers. LeBron belong in that GOAT tier to me. I mean, honestly. MJ at his peak, LeBron at his peak, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, and etc. That's some of the best individual basketball you'll ever see in their era. They never played against each other peak to peak, so it's hard to say. Everything else comes with context. Who can carry their team, who maximize the most, who is the best individual player, who win the most? Some of those questions mean more to ppl than others. All are subjective to the person.


:applause: :applause: :applause:


Very well said. I could argue a few minor points but I won't. It was well written ans was worth writing. A rarity these days here (and elsewhere). TY.

[72-10]

There's the painful fact that he's egregiously cheated his whole career and still cannot produce any semblance of a GOAT resum

[72-10]

LeBron has more skill than Alex English, but not a lot more skill, just a little more skill.

[StrongLurk]

MJ's entire existence.

[3ball]

.
Lebron's worst series



2007 ECSF vs NJN:... 24.7 on 42.3%
2007 ECF vs DET:..... 25.8 on 44.7%
2007 Finals vs SAS:.. 22.0 on 35.6%

2008 ECSF vs BOS:.... 26.7 on 35.5%

2010 ECSF vs BOS:.... 26.8 on 44.7% (quit)

2011 RD 1 vs PHI:...... 24.2 on 46.9%
2011 ECF vs CHI:....... 25.8 on 44.7%
2011 Finals vs DAL:... 17.8 on 47.8%

2013 RD 1 vs MIL:..... 24.5 on 60.7%
2013 ECSF vs CHI:.... 23.6 on 43.8%
2013 Finals vs SAS:.. 25.3 on 44.7%

2014 ECF vs IND:...... 22.8 on 55.7%

2015 ECSF vs CHI:.... 26.2 on 39.9%

2016 RD 1 vs DET:.... 22.8 on 48.7%
2016 ECSF vs ATL:... 24.3 on 50.7%


It's funny because I just took the Pippen's worst series (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13693383&postcount=216) template and barely had to change the numbers.. :rockon:

MJ only has 2 series that compare - 96' Finals (27.3 on 41.5%) and 97' ECF (30.2 on 38.7%)..

(the 97' ecf shouldn't count because he averaged 30, and I omitted all lebron series where he averaged 30+ regardless of efficiency, aka 2015 playoffs)

[3ball]

.
Checklist


[ x ] 2011 Playoffs - the goat choke in sports history; teammate led for entire playoffs

[ x ] 3/9... aka weak championship record... aka low team ceilings

[ x ] low ring count compared to the goat standard of modern era (3 vs 6)

[ x ] 4 playoff losses when expected to win

[ x ] perennial underdogs with super-teams from 2011 to 2017 - lost or was underdog for 6 of 7 years

[ x ] needed 2 star teammates acquired via team-hopping to win all rings

[ x ] 2007 NBA Finals - worst performance ever by #1 option in the Finals.. the 22-year old underperformed Magic and MJ at the same age - Magic won FMVP at 20; MJ set playoff scoring record at 23 (44 ppg and 63 point game)

[ x ] scored less than teammate/carried in 4 different playoff series

[ x ] no MVP's for 6 straight years in his prime (14-19'), and 1 less MVP than the goat standard of 3-pointer basketball

[ x ] 9 less scoring titles than the goat standard

[ x ] only 37% (https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-08-2019/eY2j3S.gif) on clutch shots in playoffs (10-27) and 0% in championship (0-8)

[ x ] only 5 years as elite defender and elite 2-way player (09-13')

[ x ] gave up 4 FMVP's to defensive assignment (3 different players including 2 role players)

[ x ] missed 2005 playoffs despite having the East 2-time all-star center on his team

[ x ] poor performances in many playoff series that were worse than MJ ever played (each series listed above in post #55 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13888078&postcount=55))

[ x ] teammates prevented 3-0 deficit in 2013 Finals while Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games and 23 on 43% thru 6; it was 2011 all over again until Ray Allen saved his career; net negative for series (heat lost with Lebron on floor)

[ x ] weak off-ball player - only elite on-ball, which doesn't fit with all player types or systems, thus lowering team ceiling, brand, and viability on the championship level, aka 3/9

[ x ] ball-dominant style turns teammates into spot-up shooters, which doesn't develop players/teams and requires ready-made stars acquired via collusion/cheating.. he simply avoided the career-losing fate of other ball-dominators by colluding for the extra talent this style needs to win

[ x ] marginalized many teammates including Hughes, Jamison, Bosh, Love, Ingram, Derrick Rose, IT, Rodney Hood, Crowder, and many more

[ x ] many skill weaknesses - not a pure shooter or scorer; no midrange; weak post-game; no off-ball; can't consistently rely on jumper for big games, making him very exploitable

[ x ] turnover prone - no playoff runs without 3+ turnovers

[ x ] suboptimal offensive style - he starts at SF but then shares PG duties with the PG - this creates a 2 point guard lineup that gives teammates less time and assists than they get in 1-PG lineups, thus causing low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level, aka 3/9... this suboptimal style results from a SKILL DEFICIT where he can't get elite stats off-ball.

[ x ] the goat stat-padder - needed the highest time of possession/weakest ball movement ever to get good stats in 2015-2018 Finals - his teams are routinely massively out-assisted in the championship

[ x ] can't carry lottery casts to playoffs - missed playoffs 3 times with teams that were lottery the prior year (04', 05', 19') - aka couldn't drag lottery casts to low seeds/underdog matchups in 1st Round, and only made playoffs with high seeds, good teams, and easy 1st round matchups, thus inflating early playoff resume compared to other stars who were good enough to carry lottery casts to low seeds

[ x ] needed prime Pippen numbers or better from sidekick to win Finals (20/5/5 on 48% was worst sidekick performance in Finals)

[ x ] can't command double-teams due to weak jumper that rarely gets hot or requires getting the ball out of his hands; and his lack of off-ball game allows opponents to defend his long-dribble style, which is preferred over double-teaming and spurring ball-movement (Stan Van Gundy (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466601) and Kerr (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-22-2019/6e5aBZ.gif) let him dribble away - they wanted the ball in his hands).. so his weak jumper and long-dribble style prevents double-teaming and allows teammates to be guarded straight-up and locked down, like the 2009 ECF where he lost as the favorite, or the 2015 Finals where a better team effort would've beaten Curry/Klay (who are otherwise losers in the Finals, 8-10 without KD).


And so much more... too much to list all in one post.
.

[SpaceJam2]

.
Lebron's worst series



2007 ECSF vs NJN:... 24.7 on 42.3%
2007 ECF vs DET:..... 25.8 on 44.7%
2007 Finals vs SAS:.. 22.0 on 35.6%

2008 ECSF vs BOS:.... 26.7 on 35.5%

2010 ECSF vs BOS:.... 26.8 on 44.7% (quit)

2011 RD 1 vs PHI:...... 24.2 on 46.9%
2011 ECF vs CHI:....... 25.8 on 44.7%
2011 Finals vs DAL:... 17.8 on 47.8%

2013 RD 1 vs MIL:..... 24.5 on 60.7%
2013 ECSF vs CHI:.... 23.6 on 43.8%
2013 Finals vs SAS:.. 25.3 on 44.7%

2014 ECF vs IND:...... 22.8 on 55.7%

2015 ECSF vs CHI:.... 26.2 on 39.9%

2016 RD 1 vs DET:.... 22.8 on 48.7%
2016 ECSF vs ATL:... 24.3 on 50.7%


It's funny because I just took the Pippen's worst series (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13693383&postcount=216) template and barely had to change the numbers.. :rockon:

MJ only has 2 series that compare - 96' Finals (27.3 on 41.5%) and 97' ECF (30.2 on 38.7%)..

(the 97' ecf shouldn't count because he averaged 30, and I omitted all lebron series where he averaged 30+ regardless of efficiency, aka 2015 playoffs)

MJ beat NOBODY

What was his best ring?

Let us know chico

[3ball]

MJ beat NOBODY

What was his best ring?

Let us know chico
That post (#55) was a setup for post #56 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13888080&postcount=56) above - respond to that one, if you can.. :oldlol:

[SpaceJam2]

That post (#55) was a setup for post #56 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13888080&postcount=56) above - respond to that one, if you can.. :oldlol:

?

MJ beat NOBODY

What was his best ring?

Let us know chico

[3ball]

?

MJ beat NOBODY

What was his best ring?

Let us know chico
:roll: … you couldn't even quote it (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13888080&postcount=56) because it was so potent.. sign of extreme weakness.. :roll: ..

you couldn't BEGIN to respond to it.. :facepalm

So now that I've thoroughly kicked your ass, I'll humor you by answering your question:

1998 was MJ's best ring because the completion of a 2nd three-peat made history as the goat modern achievement, aka better than peak Shaq could achieve (only 1 three-peat), while Kobe/KD/Lebron all failed to get even 1 three-peat.

And the 1998 Jazz beat Duncan/Robinson/Popovich, so they were better than Lebron's best comp - that ends whatever counter you have - the Jazz beat Duncan/Popovich, the team that you say is such great comp for Lebron..

They also beat Hakeem/Drexler/Barkley and swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers - so they beat the best comp ever to make a Finals (Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem).. :cheers:

Of course, Stockton was the 2nd-best player on that Utah team, which is a higher-ranked (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=462625) 2nd player than Lebron ever faced before 2017.... Now let's hear about Hornacek you repetitive robot - get some new material, and some better/viable material this time..

The reality is that you can't compare rosters from a 2-star vs. 2-star era to the recent 3-star vs. 3 star era... obviously, if you gave those Jazz a 3rd star, they would beat pretty much any team in history, since they already took the goat team to 6 tight games with just 2 stars.
.

[PickernRoller]

Free Bump for the bitchboi...

Really simple: He's not good enough, nowhere near.

Shortcutter, colluder. Anti-competitive to the bone.

For most of his career (the ones that mattered anyway) he was very raw, and largely unskilled. Still has no dependable elite mid-range game to this day.

Prolific Finals loser.

Spent his prime playing in a weak conference, in a league that was progressively softening up compared to previous eras.

But the most important of all: A COMPLETE MENTAL MIDGET.

He has, in some ways, successfully handled that by superteaming.

[PeroAntic]

JJ Barea
Jason Terry

[PickernRoller]

JJ Barea
Jason Terry

Or this as well.

[SpaceJam2]

[QUOTE=3ball]:roll:

[SpaceJam2]

Well one thing I know for sure is it won't take 50 pages to answer what was his best ring :lol

And it won't take 50 pages and all you get is two responses from his supposed to fans...

For reference:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=469823

[Pacquiao]

Horrible Defender

No Help Defense - Just stand there like an idiot

[SpaceJam2]

Horrible Defender

No Help Defense - Just stand there like an idiot

Don't be so harsh on MJ, he is still likely top 3 all time

Food for thought: Kobe is a NEGATIVE in playoff DBPM (-0.3) and has a worse DRtg than Jordan and LeBron

Defensive Playoff Statistics (Kobe/MJ fans may want to look away)

DefRtg
LBJ: 102
MJ: 104
Kobe: 106

DBPM
LBJ: 3.2
MJ: 2.1
Kobe: -0.3 :lol

DWS
LBJ: 15.9
MJ: 12.4
Kobe: 7.3

LBJ is ranked 1st in all
Kobe is ranked last in all

LBJ > MJ > Kobe

[3ball]

Don't be so harsh on MJ, he is still likely top 3 all time

Food for thought: Kobe is a NEGATIVE in playoff DBPM (-0.3) and has a worse DRtg than Jordan and LeBron

Defensive Playoff Statistics (Kobe/MJ fans may want to look away)

DefRtg
LBJ: 102
MJ: 104
Kobe: 106

DBPM
LBJ: 3.2
MJ: 2.1
Kobe: -0.3 :lol

DWS
LBJ: 15.9
MJ: 12.4
Kobe: 7.3

LBJ is ranked 1st in all
Kobe is ranked last in all

LBJ > MJ > Kobe
Regular Season DefRtg:

Bird: 101
Lebron: 103


Regular Season DBPM:

Bird: 2.2
Lebron: 1.9


Playoffs DefRtg:

Bird: 102
Lebron: 102


Playoffs DBPM:

Bird: 3.4
Lebron: 3.2


And DWS is based on games played, so Lebron is ahead in that category

So again, DefRtg and DBPM favor defensive rebounders, hence Bird having higher numbers than Lebron, and Lebron having higher numbers than Kobe

So those stats are garbage because they favor frontcourt players - and the creators of the stat concede as much

Damn brah, how many times am I going to crush you in the same thread?... :kobe:

[SpaceJam2]

Regular Season DefRtg:

Bird: 101
Lebron: 103


Regular Season DBPM:

Bird: 2.2
Lebron: 1.9


Playoffs DefRtg:

Bird: 102
Lebron: 102


Playoffs DBPM:

Bird: 3.4
Lebron: 3.2


And DWS is based on games played, so Lebron is ahead in that category

So again, DefRtg and DBPM favor defensive rebounders, hence Bird having higher numbers than Lebron, and Lebron having higher numbers than Kobe

So those stats are garbage because they favor frontcourt players - and the creators of the stat concede as much

Damn brah, how many times am I going to crush you in the same thread?... :kobe:

So

Bird
LBJ
Kawhi
Draymond
MJ
Kobe

Thanks

[3ball]

So

Bird
LBJ
Kawhi
Draymond
MJ
Kobe

Thanks
I have Bird #2 all-time

He was a 2-way assassin and versatile scorer - those are the best player types that result in maximization of teammates/brand/team ceiling, and that's why MJ/Bird/Kobe are #1, 2, and 3 all-time..

The goat physical bigs are next (Wilt/Shaq), with the bird-feeders (magic) next in line ahead of the bird-fed (Kareem/Russell)… The team-hoppers/super-team seekers are next and round out the top 11 (Lebron/KD).. However, I stick Duncan ahead of Kareem/Russell because he was less bird-fed, aka didn't need great perimeter players to have great teams (and his carry-job in 03' was Jordan-esque).

But again, the defensive advanced stats are weakened because they favor defensive rebounders over actual defense.. Otoh, ortg and obpm are accurate stats as far as raw offensive production/efficiency because all the offensive metrics are covered in those stats.
.

[Duncan21formvp]

every finals bailout, finals choke job, prime colluded ring, prime quit, lockout ring vs Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=455012
Lebron:
2004 - choked the gold medal away
2006 - choked the gold medal away
2007 - choked and swept the title away
2008 - choked the gold medal away
2008 - bailed out by kobe in the gold medal game
2010 - Quit
2011 - choked the finals away
2012 - prime colluded ring
2012 - lockout ring
2013 - prime colluded ring
2013 - bail out by ray allen
2014 - choked the finals away to an air conditioner
2014 - Quit
2015 - choked the finals away shooting 25% beyond 5 feet vs a role player
2016 - choked game 7 away in the last 5 minutes
2016 - bail out by kyrie irving
2016 - prime colluded ring
2017 - choked game 3 away and the series
2018 - choked game 1 of OT and game 3 away
2018 - Quit
2019 - No Playoffs with the winniest franchise all time.
HM* 2018 - attempted collusion with Kawhi, paul george, cp3, durant, cousins ( all turned him down )

[Duncan21formvp]

How could an all time great lose 4-0 (2007, 2018) and 4-1 (2014, 2017) in the finals twice when lesser players on weaker teams did better? The 4-1 series the all time great had two other stars on the team that actually made the allstar team as well.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=474054

[Duncan21formvp]

Lebron as he was on vacation missing the playoffs 3x and bringing home bronze medal twice to America.

[3ball]

every finals bailout, finals choke job, prime colluded ring, prime quit, lockout ring vs Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=455012
Lebron:
2004 - choked the gold medal away
2006 - choked the gold medal away
2007 - choked and swept the title away
2008 - choked the gold medal away
2008 - bailed out by kobe in the gold medal game
2010 - Quit
2011 - choked the finals away
2012 - prime colluded ring
2012 - lockout ring
2013 - prime colluded ring
2013 - bail out by ray allen
2014 - choked the finals away to an air conditioner
2014 - Quit
2015 - choked the finals away shooting 25% beyond 5 feet vs a role player
2016 - choked game 7 away in the last 5 minutes
2016 - bail out by kyrie irving
2016 - prime colluded ring
2017 - choked game 3 away and the series
2018 - choked game 1 of OT and game 3 away
2018 - Quit
2019 - No Playoffs with the winniest franchise all time.
HM* 2018 - attempted collusion with Kawhi, paul george, cp3, durant, cousins ( all turned him down )





.

Checklist


[ x ] 2011 Playoffs - the goat choke in sports history; teammate led for entire playoffs

[ x ] 3/9... aka weak championship record... aka low team ceilings

[ x ] low ring count compared to the goat standard of modern era (3 vs 6)

[ x ] 4 playoff losses when expected to win

[ x ] perennial underdogs with super-teams from 2011 to 2017 - lost or was underdog for 6 of 7 years

[ x ] needed 2 star teammates acquired via team-hopping to win all rings

[ x ] 2007 NBA Finals - worst performance ever by #1 option in the Finals.. the 22-year old underperformed Magic and MJ at the same age - Magic won FMVP at 20; MJ set playoff scoring record at 23 (44 ppg and 63 point game)

[ x ] scored less than teammate/carried in 4 different playoff series

[ x ] no MVP's for 6 straight years in his prime (14-19'), and 1 less MVP than the goat standard of 3-pointer basketball

[ x ] 9 less scoring titles than the goat standard

[ x ] only 37% (https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-08-2019/eY2j3S.gif) on clutch shots in playoffs (10-27) and 0% in championship (0-8)

[ x ] only 5 years as elite defender and elite 2-way player (09-13')

[ x ] gave up 4 FMVP's to defensive assignment (3 different players including 2 role players)

[ x ] missed 2005 playoffs despite having the East 2-time all-star center on his team

[ x ] poor performances in many playoff series that were worse than MJ ever played (each series listed above in post #55 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13888078&postcount=55))

[ x ] teammates prevented 3-0 deficit in 2013 Finals while Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games and 23 on 43% thru 6; it was 2011 all over again until Ray Allen saved his career; net negative for series (heat lost with Lebron on floor)

[ x ] weak off-ball player - only elite on-ball, which doesn't fit with all player types or systems, thus lowering team ceiling, brand, and viability on the championship level, aka 3/9

[ x ] ball-dominant style turns teammates into spot-up shooters, which doesn't develop players/teams and requires ready-made stars acquired via collusion/cheating.. he simply avoided the career-losing fate of other ball-dominators by colluding for the extra talent this style needs to win

[ x ] marginalized many teammates including Hughes, Jamison, Bosh, Love, Ingram, Derrick Rose, IT, Rodney Hood, Crowder, and many more

[ x ] many skill weaknesses - not a pure shooter or scorer; no midrange; weak post-game; no off-ball; can't consistently rely on jumper for big games, making him very exploitable

[ x ] turnover prone - no playoff runs without 3+ turnovers

[ x ] suboptimal offensive style - he starts at SF but then shares PG duties with the PG - this creates a 2 point guard lineup that gives teammates less time and assists than they get in 1-PG lineups, thus causing low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level, aka 3/9... this suboptimal style results from a SKILL DEFICIT where he can't get elite stats off-ball.

[ x ] the goat stat-padder - needed the highest time of possession/weakest ball movement ever to get good stats in 2015-2018 Finals - his teams are routinely massively out-assisted in the championship

[ x ] can't carry lottery casts to playoffs - missed playoffs 3 times with teams that were lottery the prior year (04', 05', 19') - aka couldn't drag lottery casts to low seeds/underdog matchups in 1st Round, and only made playoffs with high seeds, good teams, and easy 1st round matchups, thus inflating early playoff resume compared to other stars who were good enough to carry lottery casts to low seeds

[ x ] needed prime Pippen numbers or better from sidekick to win Finals (20/5/5 on 48% was worst sidekick performance in Finals)

[ x ] can't command double-teams due to weak jumper that rarely gets hot or requires getting the ball out of his hands; and his lack of off-ball game allows opponents to defend his long-dribble style, which is preferred over double-teaming and spurring ball-movement (Stan Van Gundy (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466601) and Kerr (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-22-2019/6e5aBZ.gif) let him dribble away - they wanted the ball in his hands).. so his weak jumper and long-dribble style prevents double-teaming and allows teammates to be guarded straight-up and locked down, like the 2009 ECF where he lost as the favorite, or the 2015 Finals where a better team effort would've beaten Curry/Klay (who are otherwise losers in the Finals, 8-10 without KD).


And so much more... too much to list all in one post.

.
https://media.giphy.com/media/10MGhMGr4WCiVW/giphy.gif


https://media.giphy.com/media/MRC4gokIS0N5C/giphy.gif

[Elosha]

If LeBron has GOAT impact/ability to carry team, GOAT ring/peak, and GOAT longevity then what's the argument

Since he has little to none of the above mentioned factors, and arguably GOAT longevity should never trump all the other factors, this thread is moot. He's an ATG, probably top 5-6. He's had way too many bad moments/losses to be GOAT.

[HoopsNY]

There is something very interesting that I noticed. The following is a list of all-stars that played with the contestant for GOAT. Each player played alongside the great AND made an all-star team while playing with that particular great player.

Wilt Chamberlain - Played with 8 All-Stars

Paul Arizin
Tom Gola
Guy Rodgers
Nate Thurmond
Tom Meschery
Elgin Baylor
Jerry West
Gail Goodrich


Kareem - Played with 9 All-Stars

Oscar Robertson
Bob Dandridge
Flynn Robinson
Jim Price
Gail Goodrich
Norm Nixon
Jamaal Wilkes
Magic Johnson
James Worthy


Magic played with 5 All-Stars

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Norm Nixon
James Worthy
Jamaal Wilkes
AC Green


Larry played with 7 All-Stars

Robert Parish
Nate Archibald
Dennis Johnson
Kevin McHale
Danny Ainge
Dave Cowens
Reggie Lewis


Russell played with 6 All-Stars

Bob Cousy
Tommy Heinsohn
Bill Sharman
Sam Jones
John Havlicek
Bailey Howell


Lebron played with 7 All-Stars

Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Mo Williams
Chris Bosh
Dwayne Wade
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis


Michael Jordan played with 1 All-Star his entire career, and in 2 of his 6 championships, he played with zero. It's amazing to think that on any given team, whether it's the Showtime Lakers, 80s Celtics, Russell's Celtics, Wilt's Warriors, Kareem's Bucks, or even Lebron's Cavs/Heat, you would have 3-4 All-Stars in the starting lineup, with HOF'ers sitting on the bench waiting to get in. I believe there is something to be said about this when you consider the lack of help that Mike had in comparison to the other greats. In 11 full seasons with Chicago, Mike managed to win 6 titles and go undefeated in them (considering he missed almost all of the '85-'86 season and '94-'95 season). This is often left out of the conversation and is certainly food for thought.

[Axe]

Hey 3ball, is that you?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Obvious GOAT is obvious.

[superduper]

There is something very interesting that I noticed. The following is a list of all-stars that played with the contestant for GOAT. Each player played alongside the great AND made an all-star team while playing with that particular great player.

Wilt Chamberlain - Played with 8 All-Stars

Paul Arizin
Tom Gola
Guy Rodgers
Nate Thurmond
Tom Meschery
Elgin Baylor
Jerry West
Gail Goodrich


Kareem - Played with 9 All-Stars

Oscar Robertson
Bob Dandridge
Flynn Robinson
Jim Price
Gail Goodrich
Norm Nixon
Jamaal Wilkes
Magic Johnson
James Worthy


Magic played with 5 All-Stars

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Norm Nixon
James Worthy
Jamaal Wilkes
AC Green


Larry played with 7 All-Stars

Robert Parish
Nate Archibald
Dennis Johnson
Kevin McHale
Danny Ainge
Dave Cowens
Reggie Lewis


Russell played with 6 All-Stars

Bob Cousy
Tommy Heinsohn
Bill Sharman
Sam Jones
John Havlicek
Bailey Howell


Lebron played with 7 All-Stars

Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Mo Williams
Chris Bosh
Dwayne Wade
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis


Michael Jordan played with 1 All-Star his entire career, and in 2 of his 6 championships, he played with zero. It's amazing to think that on any given team, whether it's the Showtime Lakers, 80s Celtics, Russell's Celtics, Wilt's Warriors, Kareem's Bucks, or even Lebron's Cavs/Heat, you would have 3-4 All-Stars in the starting lineup, with HOF'ers sitting on the bench waiting to get in. I believe there is something to be said about this when you consider the lack of help that Mike had in comparison to the other greats. In 11 full seasons with Chicago, Mike managed to win 6 titles and go undefeated in them (considering he missed almost all of the '85-'86 season and '94-'95 season). This is often left out of the conversation and is certainly food for thought.

This is probably the greatest first post in ISH history.

[FromDowntown]

Best chip
Best stats
Best skillset

Wrap it up. GOAT

[FromDowntown]

Hey 3ball, is that you?


100%obvious that is him. Loony bin posts again ugh

[Gougou]

Terrible finals record, 2 gentleman sweep by the Warriors and Spurs, 2011 Finals was a huge blackmark, he was favored to win the whole thing and then got outplayed by Terry and JJ barea.

[jessejames613]

Jason Terry

No arguing this at all. Even Magic asking the question if Lebron can stop Jason Terry says it all. "Can he stop Jason Terry?" The argument goes much deeper than that. LeBron is great... but not MJ great. On either side of the court

[FromDowntown]

No arguing this at all. Even Magic asking the question if Lebron can stop Jason Terry says it all. "Can he stop Jason Terry?" The argument goes much deeper than that. LeBron is great... but not MJ great. On either side of the court

MJ's 100% the weakest defender in top 10 history

[GimmeThat]

he's not a body builder, unless he's going for GTOAT

[Axe]

MJ's 100% the weakest defender in top 10 history
A 1x nba dpoy and was involved in the all-defensive first-team 9x is your very definition of a weakest top 10 defender in history? Ok, if you say so...

[86Celtics]

MJ's 100% the weakest defender in top 10 history

At least try to sound semi-intelligent.

[Stephonit]

Stephen Curry is better.

[Lebron23]

Stephen Curry is better.

Maybe in your deluded mind.

[Lebron23]

This is probably the greatest first post in ISH history.

That was a terrible posts by 3ball. Jordan also played with Armstrong, Grant, Gervin, Grant, Stackhouse, Hughes, and Hamilton who were former all stars. And one of the best european of all time in Tony Kukoc. Charles Oakley, and Orlando Wooldridge.

[Stephonit]

Maybe in your deluded mind.

I guess that's why Curry has won more championships in Cleveland than LeBron! Hahahahahahaha!

[Lebron23]

I guess that's why Curry has won more championships in Cleveland than LeBron! Hahahahahahaha!

And zero finals mvp. Lakers are going to win the championship this year.

[Stephonit]

And zero finals mvp. Lakers are going to win the championship this year.

As if I care about the propaganda idiots in media spout. Their coronavirus opinions are dumb and their basketball opinions are dumb.

Even if the Lakers win, my previous statement still holds true.

[Lebron23]

As if I care about the propaganda idiots in media spout. Their coronavirus opinions are dumb and their basketball opinions are dumb.

Even if the Lakers win, my previous statement still holds true.

Curry had a better team than LeBron. LBJ is the superior basketball player. 2016 Finals was the only time both teams were evenly matchup. After Durant pulled one of the biggest B1tch move in nba history. It became a one sided finals.

[Stephonit]

Curry had a better team than LeBron. LBJ is the superior basketball player. 2016 Finals was the only time both teams were evenly matchup. After Durant pulled one of the biggest B1tch move in nba history. It became a one sided finals.

With Draymond Green suspended for a game and Bogut out for part of the fifth and the last two games in 2016. Sure whatever.

[Overdrive]

2016 Finals was the only time both teams were evenly matchup.

So you're saying it wasn't an underdog win, which basically is the criteria for you guys to crown Lebron GOAT?

[HoopsNY]

This is probably the greatest first post in ISH history.

Thank you. More to come!

[HoopsNY]

That was a terrible posts by 3ball. Jordan also played with Armstrong, Grant, Gervin, Grant, Stackhouse, Hughes, and Hamilton who were former all stars. And one of the best european of all time in Tony Kukoc. Charles Oakley, and Orlando Wooldridge.

I'm not 3ball. I'm new to the forum. Armstrong, Grant, Gervin, Stackhouse, Hughes, and Hamilton never made an All-Star team playing alongside Jordan. That is the important take away from all of this. In addition, of the names you mentioned, only George Gervin was a Hall of Famer. And Gervin played one season with Chicago, the season that Mike missed almost the entire season. In that year, he averaged 16 ppg, a full 10 ppg lower than his career average up to that point.

Toni Kukoc was not an All-Star with Mike. He was a great role player and a sixth man, but if I had to start listing role players and their accomplishments for the other guys, then the list for Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, and Lebron would be much longer. Consider I didn't even mention guys like Michael Cooper (DPOY) or Bill Walton ('85-'86 sixth man of the year).

So the point still remains, Jordan played with one all-star in his entire career. The other greats played with many, and most of them are Hall of Famers. I don't think guys like Oakley, Woolridge, Grant, or Hughes can compare to Elgin Baylor, Kyrie Irving, Kevin McHale, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Bob Cousy, Dwayne Wade, etc. I mean, you're not trying to claim that, are you?

[TheImmortal]

And zero finals mvp. Lakers are going to win the championship this year.

How do you expect LeBron to do that with no season and clearly not the favorites? Giannis should be MVP and Clippers would've been champs according to most experts.

[Da_Realist]

The LeBron hype will die down when this Bulls documentary comes out. Like an Acura pulling up next to a Benz. You see the difference.

[Pushxx]

I would take MJ over LeBron if I were starting a team. MJ is the GOAT imo

[DoctorP]

due to him being an inferior player, LeBron not the goat

[HakeemAlHilm]

JJ Barea didn't outplay anyone first of all.

And second of all Lebron was statistically better than Jet that series but Jet was a better scorer.

I think Jet was overall the best player in that series from games 4-6

[sdot_thadon]

The strongest argument for him to not be goat is he's playing his career at a time where he faces more judgment and scrutiny than any other great before him has. Mj, Bird, Magic etc were never bashed or diminished for some of the ridiculous shit you'll hear people yell at the moon about Lebron. In a strange way it actually strengthens his argument, that he's graded on a curve no one else ever has been. Not even Mike.

[DoctorP]

The strongest argument for him to not be goat is he's playing his career at a time where he faces more judgment and scrutiny than any other great before him has. Mj, Bird, Magic etc were never bashed or diminished for some of the ridiculous shit you'll hear people yell at the moon about Lebron. In a strange way it actually strengthens his argument, that he's graded on a curve no one else ever has been. Not even Mike.

sounds like Trump in many ways but LeBron is a saint and has done little wrong except for leaving CLeveland in the dust once. he's faced little scrutiny about his personal behavior and has a prestine reputation

Kobe had it much worse. he was crucified in a much worse way.

:lol

[red1]

absolutely no argument whatsoever. zero. the last argument was 2011 jason terry and he's been put into a coffin since.



goatboy #23 in his natural habitat



https://media.giphy.com/media/CscdCN94UhWVi/200.gif
https://media1.tenor.com/images/683e106d7ce8c54eea570bfc2c862096/tenor.gif

[HylianNightmare]

3/9 AFTER stacking the deck in Miami.

[red1]

3/9 will be viewed as a good record in hindsight. especially if he wins even a single additional ring.

2007 inexperience

2011 choke
2012 ring
2013 ring
2014 injuries
2015 injuries
2016 ring
2017 most stacked team of all time
2018 most stacked team of all time

2020??
2021??



only one of the six losses there was a choke. even that could almost be chalked up to the first year playing with the new team - we'll just classify it as a choke, which is accurate.

the other five losses you cant fault him. 2007 just too young, 2014 wade was hobbled, 2015 no kyrie or love, 2017 and 2018 literally the most stacked teams of all time.

despite all of that he still came out of it with three finals MVPs - thats a great result. lead both teams to a championship - also a great result. 2014 and 2015 he was the best player in both finals, could've easily been a finals MVP year especially 2015 where he only needed kyrie. alas well deserved, warriors got their first ring injuries are part of the game. same argument could be made for 2017 and especially 2018, no shame in either loss. history will note how stacked those teams were.


I wouldnt argue GOAT but he's definitely the 2nd GOAT - already, mind you - only after mike.

[superduper]

So you're saying it wasn't an underdog win, which basically is the criteria for you guys to crown Lebron GOAT?

BOOM :roll: :roll:

[DoctorP]

3/9 AFTER stacking the deck in Miami.

you wanna crown em , crown em

but he is who we thought he was

[red1]

you wanna crown em , crown em

but he is who we thought he was

yup.





goatboy #23.


https://media.giphy.com/media/CscdCN94UhWVi/200.gif
https://media1.tenor.com/images/683e106d7ce8c54eea570bfc2c862096/tenor.gif

[Soundwave]

Minimum requirement for GOAT status is 6 titles, really should be 7 titles now. As the no.1 option. On top of 5 MVPs I think. Minimum.

If you want to be GOAT, you should be better than Jordan or Kareem, that is not an unfair ask. For people saying "well that's too hard" ... tough sh*t. It's supposed to be hard.

[DoctorP]

yup.





goatboy #23.


https://media.giphy.com/media/CscdCN94UhWVi/200.gif
https://media1.tenor.com/images/683e106d7ce8c54eea570bfc2c862096/tenor.gif

you are obviously crowning him. go ahead. :lol

[red1]

you are obviously crowning him. go ahead. :lol

Yup. He's already the 2nd greatest player of all time.


Minimum requirement for GOAT status is 6 titles, really should be 7 titles now. As the no.1 option. On top of 5 MVPs I think. Minimum.

If you want to be GOAT, you should be better than Jordan or Kareem, that is not an unfair ask. For people saying "well that's too hard" ... tough sh*t. It's supposed to be hard.

then by your logic russell is undisputed GOAT. context has to play a role - meaning how good they actually were.

[Axe]

And zero finals mvp. Lakers are going to win the championship this year.
You have to admit lebron can't even carry the lakers to the playoffs without ad or dwight howard in the team.

[FromDowntown]

Don't be so harsh on MJ, he is still likely top 3 all time

Food for thought: Kobe is a NEGATIVE in playoff DBPM (-0.3) and has a worse DRtg than Jordan and LeBron

Defensive Playoff Statistics (Kobe/MJ fans may want to look away)

DefRtg
LBJ: 102
MJ: 104
Kobe: 106

DBPM
LBJ: 3.2
MJ: 2.1
Kobe: -0.3 :lol

DWS
LBJ: 15.9
MJ: 12.4
Kobe: 7.3

LBJ is ranked 1st in all
Kobe is ranked last in all

LBJ > MJ > Kobe

Anyone?

[FromDowntown]

At least try to sound semi-intelligent.

Who is a worse defender than MJ in the top 10?
LBJ
Duncan
Kareem
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem
All obviously above him

Down to Magic, MJ, Bird

I guess he is 8th best, I take it back

[Axe]

Anyone?
Troll.

[Duncan21formvp]

Only way is if he ate a Bat like they did in China at the Wet Market and started the Coronavirus, but somehow he cured it.

[TheCorporation]

Wake me up when someone passes 6,911

Until then


GOAT

[Axe]

Wake me up when someone passes 6,911

Until then


GOAT
Gosh.

Your respawn time in this forum took more than 432,000 seconds, i suppose.

I guess i was wrong when i simply thought it was going to take forever lmao.

[HoopsNY]

Anyone?

I won't speak about Kobe but as for MJ, then his Drtg is higher in the playoffs than Lebron. In addition, Lebron's DWS is more, yes, but WS is a cumulative statistic. What's more important to look at is WS/48 which shows that Mike's is actually higher, even if you were to take DWD and divide it by their total games played in the playoffs. Lebron has a higher Dbpm by .02. All in all, it's important to note that Mike was a better on the ball defender. In fact, he's one of the greatest defensive specialists, ever. The eye test would tell us this.

[86Celtics]

The strongest argument for him to not be goat is he's playing his career at a time where he faces more judgment and scrutiny than any other great before him has. Mj, Bird, Magic etc were never bashed or diminished for some of the ridiculous shit you'll hear people yell at the moon about Lebron. In a strange way it actually strengthens his argument, that he's graded on a curve no one else ever has been. Not even Mike.

The strongest argument against him is the fact that he isn't as good as Jordan.

[deathawaitu]

Only player in history to give up 3 FMVP to his direct assignment

Goat defender

[superduper]

The fact that this insecure thread has to be made.

[red1]

he got JR smith a ring. thats some goatboy shit right there.


he got mo ****ing williams a ring. thats a goatboy move right there too.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I won't speak about Kobe but as for MJ, then his Drtg is higher in the playoffs than Lebron. In addition, Lebron's DWS is more, yes, but WS is a cumulative statistic. What's more important to look at is WS/48 which shows that Mike's is actually higher, even if you were to take DWD and divide it by their total games played in the playoffs. Lebron has a higher Dbpm by .02. All in all, it's important to note that Mike was a better on the ball defender. In fact, he's one of the greatest defensive specialists, ever. The eye test would tell us this.

Winshares, defensive winshares and dbpm are all manipulated by team/teammates. Not smart to peg defensive impact with the box-score.

[The Iron Fist]

Wake me up when someone passes 6,911

Until then


GOAT

Nobody else will ever lose six finals in 9 tries with 11 hall of fame teammates.

[sdot_thadon]

The strongest argument against him is the fact that he isn't as good as Jordan.

I grew up in the Jordan era, he's my goat by a small margin but I disagree that he's "better" than Lebron. I think the more fitting term is "different " he's just as good in different ways. He is still greater in my book though, but Lebron's done some good things to narrow it down.

[Uncle Drew]

I have yet to see one compelling argument. That should pretty much settle it then.

[Phoenix]

he got JR smith a ring. thats some goatboy shit right there.


he got mo ****ing williams a ring. thats a goatboy move right there too.

There's a lengthy list of players on those Bulls title squads worse than JR and Mo.

[Turbo Slayer]

Nobody else will ever lose six finals in 9 tries with 11 hall of fame teammates. Context is needed. Dumb claim.

[Norcaliblunt]

I rooted against Michael Jordan every single time and he won. I rooted for Lebron in 2011 and he lost.

[Turbo Slayer]

Here are some highlights from all 9 Finals.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8nW5BMLAXk

[Turbo Slayer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiqspGnVC3k

Greatness.

[HoopsNY]

Winshares, defensive winshares and dbpm are all manipulated by team/teammates. Not smart to peg defensive impact with the box-score.

Very true. When it comes to advanced metrics and analytics, there are a host of other variables to be considered. Having said that though, it's not like LBJ did better in these categories, still and all.

[Turbo Slayer]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2447467-nba-playoff-history-clutch-meter-the-top-25-late-game-players-in-recent-memory#slide0

[HoopsNY]

The debate really comes to a close when you consider 5 things:

1- The number of All-Star teammates that each player played with
2- The fact that LeBron has had 2 horrible finals performances, worse than any of MJ's finals performances
3- The fact that LeBron has been outplayed by several players, including his own teammate, in multiple playoff performances
4- The fact that LeBron has had to forge 2 super-teams in his career, otherwise, would we even be having this conversation if he didn't?
5- The dominance factor of both individual dominance and team dominance

I believe there are too many variables involved whereas the aforementioned is neglected.

[LAL]

Besides collecting stats in his very own tailor made system, what is he better at than the goat? I've seen so many kids with better handles, footwork and shooting form than lebron.. this shit is so forced and wrong.

[HoopsNY]

Besides collecting stats in his very own tailor made system, what is he better at than the goat? I've seen so many kids with better handles, footwork and shooting form than lebron.. this shit is so forced and wrong.

Well, I think LeBron is a better rebounder. I also think Lebron's longevity does factor into this. However, if you are going to take a peak player, and throw him into a must win 7 game series, then it's MJ you want above anyone hands down.

[Da_Realist]

Well, I think LeBron is a better rebounder. I also think Lebron's longevity does factor into this. However, if you are going to take a peak player, and throw him into a must win 7 game series, then it's MJ you want above anyone hands down.

And that's really what matters. MJ invoked intimidation and fear (competitive fear for those that want to be super literal) in his opponents...the highest respect even among his haters for his competitive fire. There was a period in his career where no one felt they could beat him. The league breathed a sigh of relief when he retired and many stars open stated they felt they had a shot to win now that MJ was gone.

LeBron has never been held in that high regard. He's respected but never feared by his best competitors. Wherever LeBron chooses to play or whoever he chooses to play with...guys feel good about their chances to win. He is rarely considered a favorite even though he restarts and builds a new team every 3-4 years.

[DoctorP]

And that's really what matters. MJ invoked intimidation and fear (competitive fear for those that want to be super literal) in his opponents...the highest respect even among his haters for his competitive fire. There was a period in his career where no one felt they could beat him. The league breathed a sigh of relief when he retired and many stars open stated they felt they had a shot to win now that MJ was gone.

LeBron has never been held in that high regard. He's respected but never feared by his best competitors. Wherever LeBron chooses to play or whoever he chooses to play with...guys feel good about their chances to win. He is rarely considered a favorite even though he restarts and builds a new team every 3-4 years.

Exactly. That being said, I also feel the same way abaout Kawhi Leonard. Yet, would I pick LeBron over Kawhi all-time? Probably not. Jordan has the career resume to back up his swag. That's the difference.

[Phoenix]

Well, I think LeBron is a better rebounder. I also think Lebron's longevity does factor into this. However, if you are going to take a peak player, and throw him into a must win 7 game series, then it's MJ you want above anyone hands down.

Believe it or not he's a statically worse offensive rebounder. It's a small gap but that's the case regardless.

[DoctorP]

deleted

[DoctorP]

And that's really what matters. MJ invoked intimidation and fear (competitive fear for those that want to be super literal) in his opponents...the highest respect even among his haters for his competitive fire. There was a period in his career where no one felt they could beat him. The league breathed a sigh of relief when he retired and many stars open stated they felt they had a shot to win now that MJ was gone.

LeBron has never been held in that high regard. He's respected but never feared by his best competitors. Wherever LeBron chooses to play or whoever he chooses to play with...guys feel good about their chances to win. He is rarely considered a favorite even though he restarts and builds a new team every 3-4 years.

Exactly. That being said, I also feel the same way about Kawhi Leonard. Yet, would I pick Kawhi over LeBron all-time? Not at this time. Jordan has the career resume to back up his swag. That's the difference.

[The Iron Fist]

Context is needed. Dumb claim.

Claim? These are facts.

[red1]

Nobody else will ever lose six finals in 9 tries with 11 hall of fame teammates.

this argument is weak and has been thoroughly debunked. which stars in NBA history would win in his place in 14, 15, 17, and 18? the answer is none.


on the other hand the argument with three finals MVPs carries serious weight. thats more than players like bird, kobe, and hakeem. carrying cleveland all of those years also carries weight because you better believe those years would have been championship years on a better franchise - say the spurs. thats why lebron is definitively the better player than duncan in the recent comparison and why he's already tied him for finals MVPs.

[The Iron Fist]

this argument is weak and has been thoroughly debunked. which stars in NBA history would win in his place in 14, 15, 17, and 18? the answer is none.


on the other hand the argument with three finals MVPs carries serious weight. thats more than players like bird, kobe, and hakeem. carrying cleveland all of those years also carries weight because you better believe those years would have been championship years on a better franchise - say the spurs. thats why lebron is definitively the better player than duncan in the recent comparison and why he's already tied him for finals MVPs.

All that just to say you’re suck off 3-6 Mafia?

[red1]

All that just to say you’re suck off 3-6 Mafia?

I dont know what that means.



dude I had a great decade. celebrated 2012, 2013, 2016, 2019, and got to enjoy playoffs and finals the rest of the years too.


my team won a ring plus my guy is now an undisputed winner with three finals MVPs, and haters like you dont have shit. no doubt one of the GOATs.


great, great decade for me. :applause:


https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1b/c0/84/1bc084c67622b8cb9c12a03369c9a225.jpg
https://cdn.chatsports.com/cache/f8/bd/f8bd7910454ffd8ccb53decf466baf52-original.jpg

[Axe]

All that just to say you’re suck off 3-6 Mafia?
Yep, pretty much.

[red1]

Yep, pretty much.

suck my nuts bitch. you're clueless. iron_fist is another 3ball, another dude that has been destroyed over the years. dude used to troll HARD. :roll:



whats good though? that backfired pretty nice for the most part huh limp_wrist? :oldlol:

[Axe]

suck my nuts bitch. you're clueless. iron_fist is another 3ball, another dude that has been destroyed over the years. dude used to troll HARD. :roll:



whats good though? that backfired pretty nice for the most part huh limp_wrist? :oldlol:
Oh look. Butthurt much? You're crying again with your long, ridiculous message. You type like a woman the way you do that.

And also, wtf do you think i would care if he used to troll back then? Twerp.

[red1]

Oh look. Butthurt much? You're crying again with your long, ridiculous message. You type like a woman the way you do that.

And also, wtf do you think i would care if he used to troll back then? Twerp.

you've been following me around a lot. I dont like reading anything you post either.



**** you.


https://media2.giphy.com/media/nhM7FiJRRaapG/source.gif

[Axe]

you've been following me around a lot. I dont like reading anything you post either.



**** you.


https://media2.giphy.com/media/nhM7FiJRRaapG/source.gif
Cool story bro.

[red1]

Im going to use this opportunity to flex on my boy iron_fist again - what happened to those 4th quarter and ringless jokes dude? :oldlol:


your boy kobe didnt win another ring and lebron surpassed him since then. its hilarious how these things work - now you have to root against your own team. HOW SWEET IT IS! :roll:

[DoctorP]

Oh look. Butthurt much? You're crying again with your long, ridiculous message. You type like a woman the way you do that.

And also, wtf do you think i would care if he used to troll back then? Twerp.

types like a woman?

you will now be targeted and murdered by feminists. :lol

[sdot_thadon]

The debate really comes to a close when you consider 5 things:

1- The number of All-Star teammates that each player played with
2- The fact that LeBron has had 2 horrible finals performances, worse than any of MJ's finals performances
3- The fact that LeBron has been outplayed by several players, including his own teammate, in multiple playoff performances
4- The fact that LeBron has had to forge 2 super-teams in his career, otherwise, would we even be having this conversation if he didn't?
5- The dominance factor of both individual dominance and team dominance

I believe there are too many variables involved whereas the aforementioned is neglected.

1. Just my personal taste but I prefer to look at all nba selections over allstar selections, and either is really a moot point when you consider Mj almost always had more of either than his opponents....

2.Valid point, however I don't really hold 2007 against him, he really had no business making the finals that early in his career. It was an alltime level statement that he even did so that year.

3. Mmm, that's subjective but I guess I'd agree. The nature of his game lends to that outcome being a possibility when it comes to teammates where as MJ's doesn't really.

4. Forging super teams is the new version of front office doing a good job on roster construction. In MJ's era player movement was in it's infancy compared to our current league. It's the new normal going forward unfortunately.

5. Where does Lebron leave anything to desire in this category? He's had performances in the postseason arguably more individually dominant than any Mj has had, they can go blow for blow in this dept.



And that's really what matters. MJ invoked intimidation and fear (competitive fear for those that want to be super literal) in his opponents...the highest respect even among his haters for his competitive fire. There was a period in his career where no one felt they could beat him. The league breathed a sigh of relief when he retired and many stars open stated they felt they had a shot to win now that MJ was gone.

Man all that is just a really convoluted way of saying Mj didn't face as high a level of competition as Lebron has tbh. There's better arguments to make than that type of subjective fan service bs lol.

[Axe]

types like a woman?

you will now be targeted and murdered by feminists. :lol
Oh there are actually feminists here in ish? 🤔

That sounds pathetic.

[DoctorP]

Oh there are actually feminists here in ish? 樂

That sounds pathetic.

oh they are watching. the wnba feminists society. deadly.

they are on the fed's terrorist watch list.

[Axe]

oh they are watching. the wnba feminists society. deadly.

they are on the fed's terrorist watch list.
What? You're probably just hallucinating again too much buddy.

[DoctorP]

What? You're probably just hallucinating again too much buddy.

hallucinations? must be the corona

[Axe]

hallucinations? must be the corona
Err, maybe.

[DoctorP]

Err, maybe.

maybe? hmm whats your diagnosis?

[Axe]

maybe? hmm whats your diagnosis?
You're derailing this thread with those questions.

[DoctorP]

You're derailing this thread with those questions.

:confusedshrug:

[brownmamba00]

Not a basketball savant here but my logical understanding part of my brain is telling me it gots to be those six finals losses.

[red1]

Not a basketball savant here but my logical understanding part of my brain is telling me it gots to be those six finals losses.

I know you're a laker fan bro - is this a rough year? Are you rooting for or against the lakers?

[DoctorP]

Not a basketball savant here but my logical understanding part of my brain is telling me it gots to be those six finals losses.

:lol

[TheCorporation]

Nobody else will ever lose six finals in 9 tries with 11 hall of fame teammates.
Wake me up when someone passes 6,911

Until then


GOAT

[Axe]

Wake me up when someone passes 6,911

Until then


GOAT
Wake me up when someone active passes 4,402

Until then

GOAT

[TheCorporation]

Wake me up when someone active passes 4,402

Until then

GOAT

6911 > *

Bron BEEN the GOAT

[Axe]

6911 > *

Bron BEEN the GOAT
You obviously don't know what I'm talking about when i mentioned that.

[superduper]

6911 > *

Bron BEEN the GOAT

How does it feel that you literally have to scream this to yourself 20x a day every single day to make it true in your mind?

[Axe]

How does it feel that you literally have to scream this to yourself 20x a day every single day to make it true in your mind?
Like a freaking robot who's programmed to type the same crap all day. No free will at all. 🤷

[Da_Realist]

Man all that is just a really convoluted way of saying Mj didn't face as high a level of competition as Lebron has tbh. There's better arguments to make than that type of subjective fan service bs lol.

LeBron faced trash 85% of his career and only faced a real team in the Finals while you and his other fanboys act like that's what he faced every series. He played one good team a year and mostly lost. Teams out west were beating each other up while LeBron's East Coast All-Stars went into the Finals fresh after twiddling their thumbs all year...and he still mostly lost. Some in record breaking fashion.

So no, he didn't earn the reverence MJ did. LeBron could be beaten at his best even with his hand-picked starting lineups.

[superduper]

LeBron faced trash 85% of his career and only faced a real team in the Finals while you and his other fanboys act like that's what he faced every series. He played one good team a year and mostly lost. Teams out west were beating each other up while LeBron's East Coast All-Stars went into the Finals fresh after twiddling their thumbs all year...and he still mostly lost. Some in record breaking fashion.


For real, there's a reason these clowns only spew "FINALS!!!11!!", they know 75% of his playoff competition has been straight up embarrassing.



So no, he didn't earn the reverence MJ did. LeBron could be beaten at his best even with his hand-picked starting lineups.


This right here is why Bran isn't remotely close to GOAT and should be the closure of this thread.

[Nowoco]

If it was the first pick in an all-time draft, starting a franchise. No-one, not even LeBron stans, would take him first and they know it too.

[sdot_thadon]

LeBron faced trash 85% of his career and only faced a real team in the Finals while you and his other fanboys act like that's what he faced every series. He played one good team a year and mostly lost. Teams out west were beating each other up while LeBron's East Coast All-Stars went into the Finals fresh after twiddling their thumbs all year...and he still mostly lost. Some in record breaking fashion.

So no, he didn't earn the reverence MJ did. LeBron could be beaten at his best even with his hand-picked starting lineups.

85%? What's that figure based on? Lemme guess, more subjective fan service. One question: what all time great team was afraid of Mj? The pistons? Sure, but they already beat him several times and literally beat him up to the point we still cry about it 30 years later.....that's not fear. Did Mj make the pistons go out and get Magic Johnson one summer because they felt it wasn't possible to beat him? Cause the Warrirors sure did.....

[Da_Realist]

85%? What's that figure based on? Lemme guess, more subjective fan service. One question: what all time great team was afraid of Mj? The pistons? Sure, but they already beat him several times and literally beat him up to the point we still cry about it 30 years later.....that's not fear. Did Mj make the pistons go out and get Magic Johnson one summer because they felt it wasn't possible to beat him? Cause the Warrirors sure did.....

An all time great team getting beat by 30+ points multiple times in the playoffs? It's the playoffs that determine how great a team is, not regular season wins. Nobody is scared of LeBron. That's why he's rarely the favorite. Even he knows he needs help. He had the most talented team in the league but that wasn't enough. He needed Anthony Davis. And he tried to get Kawhi on top of that. It's never enough.

[JohnFreeman]

Jordan was better

[Turbo Slayer]

Jordan is better. Simple.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Lebron has already lost the chance to be GOAT after being swept in NBA finals 2007. MJ the reigning GOAT of NBA went 6/6 in NBA finals, a perfect 100% winning percentage in the biggest stage of basketball. In order for a future player to surpass MJ, an undefeated NBA Finals Record is a necessary condition(but not sufficient) to meet. If a player loses once in the Finals, hes automatically disqualified in GOAT discussion. This isnt to say that Lebron aint a great player, just MJ set the bar way too high, our GOAT is close to perfection.

[JohnFreeman]

Lebron has already lost the chance to be GOAT after being swept in NBA finals 2007. MJ the reigning GOAT of NBA went 6/6 in NBA finals, a perfect 100% winning percentage in the biggest stage of basketball. In order for a future player to surpass MJ, an undefeated NBA Finals Record is a necessary condition(but not sufficient) to meet. If a player loses once in the Finals, hes automatically disqualified in GOAT discussion. This isnt to say that Lebron aint a great player, just MJ set the bar way too high, our GOAT is close to perfection.

I am probably the biggest LeBron fan on ish, but this post destroyed his legacy. The LeBron fan club, which I am proud to be a member, must acknowledge and accept that he is not top 10, let alone the GOAT.

[warriorfan]

Lebron has already lost the chance to be GOAT after being swept in NBA finals 2007. MJ the reigning GOAT of NBA went 6/6 in NBA finals, a perfect 100% winning percentage in the biggest stage of basketball. In order for a future player to surpass MJ, an undefeated NBA Finals Record is a necessary condition(but not sufficient) to meet. If a player loses once in the Finals, hes automatically disqualified in GOAT discussion. This isnt to say that Lebron aint a great player, just MJ set the bar way too high, our GOAT is close to perfection.

It was more like after 2011 after he formed a super team and got outscored in his prime by an aging Jason Terry in the Finals.

[HoopsNY]

1. Just my personal taste but I prefer to look at all nba selections over allstar selections, and either is really a moot point when you consider Mj almost always had more of either than his opponents....

2.Valid point, however I don't really hold 2007 against him, he really had no business making the finals that early in his career. It was an alltime level statement that he even did so that year.

3. Mmm, that's subjective but I guess I'd agree. The nature of his game lends to that outcome being a possibility when it comes to teammates where as MJ's doesn't really.

4. Forging super teams is the new version of front office doing a good job on roster construction. In MJ's era player movement was in it's infancy compared to our current league. It's the new normal going forward unfortunately.

5. Where does Lebron leave anything to desire in this category? He's had performances in the postseason arguably more individually dominant than any Mj has had, they can go blow for blow in this dept.




Man all that is just a really convoluted way of saying Mj didn't face as high a level of competition as Lebron has tbh. There's better arguments to make than that type of subjective fan service bs lol.


1- I suppose you might be right, but consider he beat a Laker team that had more All-NBA selections than the Bulls did (Worthy & Magic). Opponents like the Magic, Jazz, Sonics, etc all had 2 while the Bulls had 2. And these are finals and ECF opponents keep in mind.

2- I don't hold 2007 against Lebron in terms of him losing that series. It was expected, really. But to get swept was really bad and to play as bad as he did was even worse. Mike played the '85-86 Celtics. Did anyone expect them to win? No. But did he outshine every other player on the court, including Larry Bird? Absolutely. Lebron's performance in that series is inexcusable if people want to anoint him the greatest of all time.

3- My point about being outplayed is significant because one never got outplayed whereas the other one did, several times.

4- I mean, LeBron was really the first one in this decade to do it. And he did it, twice. Now, I can concede to your point, but what is inexcusable is the fact that he's lost so many times despite forging that many superteams. If you're the GOAT, then you should have at least a winning finals record.

5- In terms of postseason performances? Not so sure about that one. But when I mentioned dominance, consider the Bulls' regular season record between 1990-1998. Consider the fact that they never lost more than 2 games in a row with MJ on the floor. The 6-0 in the finals. The Simple Rating System that had the Bulls #1 almost every year which takes into account point differentials as well as strength of schedule. The defensive dominance of MJ. The scoring titles. I think this is what I meant.

[HoopsNY]

To add on, in 2007, you could say, "well, the Spurs were a dominant defensive team." And you'd be right. The only problem is that the '85-86 Celtics are arguably the greatest team of all time, and also had the best defense in the league at that time too.

Both MJ and Lebron got swept. MJ's sweep was expected. Lebron's wasn't. MJ dropped 44 ppg on 50% shooting in that series. Lebron averaged 22 on 35% shooting. It's like night and day. And keep in mind, this was Lebron's 4th season in the league. This was Mike's 2nd only and he missed almost the entire season.

The more you dig into this debate, the more it becomes clear how far MJ is above Lebron.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Hoops (hoopsencyclopedia?) has a lot of good points. The only thing I disagree with are Lebron's expectations. With regards to being swept. Cleveland had just came off beating Detroit thanks mostly to Lebron. Expecting that AGAIN but in the finals. While winning? Not exactly realistic. Lebron made us envision that Cinderella story, but the truth was a far reality.

I also have Jordan over Lebron. And like I said, most of your post is spot on. Jordan is in fact the greatest playoff and finals performer.

[Da_Realist]

To add on, in 2007, you could say, "well, the Spurs were a dominant defensive team." And you'd be right. The only problem is that the '85-86 Celtics are arguably the greatest team of all time, and also had the best defense in the league at that time too.

Both MJ and Lebron got swept. MJ's sweep was expected. Lebron's wasn't. MJ dropped 44 ppg on 50% shooting in that series. Lebron averaged 22 on 35% shooting. It's like night and day. And keep in mind, this was Lebron's 4th season in the league. This was Mike's 2nd only and he missed almost the entire season.

The more you dig into this debate, the more it becomes clear how far MJ is above Lebron.

MJ had to get through one of the toughest conferences in history in order to just get to the Finals. This actually helped him become the player we remember. It's always the struggles that force you to improve. He took his lumps against an all-time great Celtics team that ceded control of the NBA to an all-time great Pistons team. By the time the Bulls figured out how to win -- meaning they became mentally strong, learned how to keep their composure under pressure, how to manufacture points, learned to always rely on their defense to keep them in games, etc -- they were still young enough to out-run and out-jump everybody. The Bulls learned the old man game while they were still young bucks. This is why their dominance lasted longer than most other champions.

LeBron didn't have the same arc. He wasn't forced to reevaluate and get better just to claw to the next round. There was no brick wall stopping his progress. His conference was trash and allowed him to waltz right into the Finals every year, many times when neither he or his team was ready. This is why the Spurs spanked his Cavs like they did in 2007. The Cavs tried to jump from high school Geometry to college Set Theory. LeBron needed additional talent to make up the difference. He left for Miami to team with Wade and Bosh. Then they were embarrassed by the Mavs (because he wasn't ready).

This has been his career strategy: Get more talent, overwhelm the competition. When the other team figures things out, go somewhere else and restock. Rinse, repeat.

MJ and his Bulls learned some things that don't show up on the stat sheet that helped them win. Some of this I outlined above. This is why it was difficult betting against them. You knew they would bring their best game when needed. You knew they were going to play hellacious defense. You knew they would keep their composure. You knew MJ was the greatest clutch performer ever. Why would you bet against that even when the other team matched or exceeded the Bulls talent level?

LeBron's teams are different. They were rattled as late as 2018 when LeBron had that 50 point game and JR Smith made his end game blunder. The Cavs gave up in overtime and pretty much gave in the rest of the series. They could have given that Warriors team a real run for their money had they had the focus, experience and heart the Bulls were forced to develop. A much lesser team pushed the Warriors to seven games. In fact, every team took a game from the Warriors during the playoffs except LeBron's Cavs.

But because LeBron didn't beat them the narrative has become the Warriors are the unbeatable, undisputed greatest team of all time.

[RRR3]

LeBron really wasn’t the guy people think of as LeBron yet in 2007

[Overdrive]

Lebron has already lost the chance to be GOAT after being swept in NBA finals 2007. MJ the reigning GOAT of NBA went 6/6 in NBA finals, a perfect 100% winning percentage in the biggest stage of basketball. In order for a future player to surpass MJ, an undefeated NBA Finals Record is a necessary condition(but not sufficient) to meet. If a player loses once in the Finals, hes automatically disqualified in GOAT discussion. This isnt to say that Lebron aint a great player, just MJ set the bar way too high, our GOAT is close to perfection.

2007 isn't the reason. He wasn't expected to be there and he played well up until the finals. It could have been a kicker for Lebron if he had a career similar to MJ, but he simply didn't have it. He was the closest with Kareem maybe, yet is far off. What killed the debate and closed it forever imo was '11. No twist, like it was Wade's fault can rease that from his legacy.

Losing is absolutely alright. If he went 7/11 with great stats both in wins and loses. Having his RS stats, longevity and all his accolades he would or could be GOAT, it's that way he lost in '11, his coping mechanisms upon losing(teammates fault, broken hand,..) that denied him.

[AlternativeAcc.]

2007 isn't the reason. He wasn't expected to be there and he played well up until the finals. It could have been a kicker for Lebron if he had a career similar to MJ, but he simply didn't have it. He was the closest with Kareem maybe, yet is far off. What killed the debate and closed it forever imo was '11. No twist, like it was Wade's fault can rease that from his legacy.

Losing is absolutely alright. If he went 7/11 with great stats both in wins and loses. Having his RS stats, longevity and all his accolades he would or could be GOAT, it's that way he lost in '11, his coping mechanisms upon losing(teammates fault, broken hand,..) that denied him.
Lebron, if not for absurd circumstances working against, would be getting his 7th ring this year

2015... easy W if 2 of the best 3 cavs players dont go down
2017 easy W
2018 easy W
2020 Likely W

You cant point to one season where Jordan had remotely similar circumstances working against him in his prime. He literally had the best luck for the entirety of his prime, lebron had the opposite .

Ring count is irrelevant without context

[HoopsNY]

Hoops (hoopsencyclopedia?) has a lot of good points. The only thing I disagree with are Lebron's expectations. With regards to being swept. Cleveland had just came off beating Detroit thanks mostly to Lebron. Expecting that AGAIN but in the finals. While winning? Not exactly realistic. Lebron made us envision that Cinderella story, but the truth was a far reality.

I also have Jordan over Lebron. And like I said, most of your post is spot on. Jordan is in fact the greatest playoff and finals performer.

Thank you for your kind response. I'm not Hoopsencyclopedia. I should have probably made a unique name, lol. In any case:

I think the expectation wasn't that Lebron would have won. I think I mentioned that in the previous post. He can be excuses for losing. But the abysmal play is something that can't be excused. It is something that Lebron fans would like to forget and ultimately exclude from the record books. But if we're going to label someone as the GOAT, we have to factor that together with the context.

[HoopsNY]

LeBron really wasn’t the guy people think of as LeBron yet in 2007

He also wasn't the 22 ppg 35% 6 TO a game player we saw, either.

[HoopsNY]

Lebron, if not for absurd circumstances working against, would be getting his 7th ring this year

2015... easy W if 2 of the best 3 cavs players dont go down
2017 easy W
2018 easy W
2020 Likely W

You cant point to one season where Jordan had remotely similar circumstances working against him in his prime. He literally had the best luck for the entirety of his prime, lebron had the opposite .

Ring count is irrelevant without context

I'm really unsure how you arrived at the conclusion that Mike had the "best luck" for the entirety of his prime, when he's the one that built that team up. The Bulls drafted well, Mike led the team and cultivated players. Name an All-Star that LeBron cultivated under his wing in his 17 years of play. In 1994-95, Bj Armstrong, Scottie Pippen, and Horace Grant were all all-stars. Mike built those guys up and instilled mental toughness in other guys like Toni Kukoc.

But you can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can't say "if not for absurd circumstances...Lebron...." when Lebron is directly responsible for those circumstances. Lebron built super-teams. Other teams followed suit. Lebron also dismantled teams, built bad relationships with coaches and management, and threw his own teammates under the bus like he did with the young guys in LA. If you're going to ultimately be the GM, coach, as well as the best player, then you bear responsibility for when your team loses, too.

So did he lose to KD's artificial team (which deserves an asterisk)? Yes absolutely.

But did he also build a super-team in Cleveland - signing onto a team with an already 2 time all-star Kyrie Irving, then bringing over Kevin Love, then making trades to import guys like JR Smith and Kyle Korver? Then the answer is a resounding yes. If you're going to discredit opponents based on artificial makeup, then you have to do the same with his teams as well.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I'm really unsure how you arrived at the conclusion that Mike had the "best luck" for the entirety of his prime, when he's the one that built that team up. The Bulls drafted well, Mike led the team and cultivated players. Name an All-Star that LeBron cultivated under his wing in his 17 years of play. In 1994-95, Bj Armstrong, Scottie Pippen, and Horace Grant were all all-stars. Mike built those guys up and instilled mental toughness in other guys like Toni Kukoc.

But you can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can't say "if not for absurd circumstances...Lebron...." when Lebron is directly responsible for those circumstances. Lebron built super-teams. Other teams followed suit. Lebron also dismantled teams, built bad relationships with coaches and management, and threw his own teammates under the bus like he did with the young guys in LA. If you're going to ultimately be the GM, coach, as well as the best player, then you bear responsibility for when your team loses, too.

So did he lose to KD's artificial team (which deserves an asterisk)? Yes absolutely.

But did he also build a super-team in Cleveland - signing onto a team with an already 2 time all-star Kyrie Irving, then bringing over Kevin Love, then making trades to import guys like JR Smith and Kyle Korver? Then the answer is a resounding yes. If you're going to discredit opponents based on artificial makeup, then you have to do the same with his teams as well.

Stop it 3ball! Those weak arguments/lies dont work on me dog!

It's well documented that Jordan threw teammates under the bus and demanded a trade early in his career, what you accuse LeBron of doing is exactly what MJ WAS DOING. To a tee.

Comparing the LeBron Heat/Cavs to Durant Warriors is extra weak and desperate. No need to even dignify it with a response. It's just weak. Yet it's the best rebuttal you could come up with = wow, you're throwing in the towel

Jordan had the best circumstances despite him creating turmoil in the locker room with teammates and demanding trades, LeBron otoh has dealt with poor rosters, injuries, bad coaches, and rediculous literally unfair competition for the majority of his career. And now a virus shutting down the season with his team as a strong title favorite. Cant make the shit up. You also cant twist it any other way without lying through your teeth.

[Lebron23]

3ball is using an alternate account.

[Axe]

3ball is using an alternate account.
Oh I'm pretty sure that's something people already know about.

[AlternativeAcc.]

3ball is using an alternate account.

****ing pathetic.

[HoopsNY]

Stop it 3ball! Those weak arguments/lies dont work on me dog!

It's well documented that Jordan threw teammates under the bus and demanded a trade early in his career, what you accuse LeBron of doing is exactly what MJ WAS DOING. To a tee.

Comparing the LeBron Heat/Cavs to Durant Warriors is extra weak and desperate. No need to even dignify it with a response. It's just weak. Yet it's the best rebuttal you could come up with = wow, you're throwing in the towel

Jordan had the best circumstances despite him creating turmoil in the locker room with teammates and demanding trades, LeBron otoh has dealt with poor rosters, injuries, bad coaches, and rediculous literally unfair competition for the majority of his career. And now a virus shutting down the season with his team as a strong title favorite. Cant make the shit up. You also cant twist it any other way without lying through your teeth.

I'm not sure why everyone seems to think that I'm someone else from this forum, lol. I'm not. But anyway:

Can you show me where MJ threw his teammates under the bus during games, in postgame interviews, or the like? Maybe he did, but I certainly don't recall it. And I certainly don't recall it to the level that LBJ does it.

I don't have a problem with demanding a trade. That's not the point here, so I'm not sure why you said that. MJ was not doing anything nearly as much as LBJ has. What you're trying to do is minimize LBJ's actions. Again, if you're the GM-Coach-Best Player, then you have to take criticism on all those levels as well.

I'm not sure why you think the comparison to Durant is unwarranted, especially since LBJ had 6 years of doing this under his belt (4 with Miami, 2 with Cleveland) prior to Durant joining Golden State. His actions were literally unprecedented. And I'm not sure what kind of debate you're used to, but claiming I'm throwing in the towel is very immature. I figured we're all adults and can discuss topics as such.

If you mean Jordan created turmoil by toughening up Steve Kerr, Bill Cartwright, and Toni Kukoc, then fine, it's turmoil. But it's turmoil that led to championships. LBJ's turmoil lead to trades, free agent signings, and in his own case, him leaving the team. So I'm kinda unsure how you draw some sort of equivalence between the two. They're clearly not the same.

You have yet to discuss how MJ had "the best circumstances"? I'm curious to understand this point.

The virus shutting down a potential title run for LBJ is definitely true. But even if he were to win it, the fact that he had to stack yet another team with talent will diminish it when just a season ago, he couldn't even make the playoffs with young-developing talent. So yea, you can't really make this up.

I don't know about Lebron necessarily having bad coaches. Erik Spoelstra certainly wasn't a bad coach. I also don't think Paul Silas was a bad coach. The problem is LeBron cannot be coached because he IS the coach. And that's fine. Bill Russell was a player-coach. But if you are going to be the coach, if you're going to be the GM, if you're going to be the best player, then you have to be prepared to take criticism.

I'm not sure what you're talking about in terms of "lying." But please do point it out.

[Axe]

Simply because you post too long messages just to make your point.

[Phoenix]

Simply because you post too long messages just to make your point.

3ball has a very specific style of posting and unless he's switched it up, that's not close to being it.

[HoopsNY]

3ball has a very specific style of posting and unless he's switched it up, that's not close to being it.

I do apologize for being rather wordy. However, when delving into such a topic with as many caveats, it simply cannot be explained by posting a set of accolades or a group of statistics. Those numbers have a context as well as those accolades. However, I do try to be concise and group topics together rather than making several posts dedicated to the same subject, for the sake of brevity.

[Axe]

3ball has a very specific style of posting and unless he's switched it up, that's not close to being it.
Who knows?

[Phoenix]

I do apologize for being rather wordy. However, when delving into such a topic with as many caveats, it simply cannot be explained by posting a set of accolades or a group of statistics. Those numbers have a context as well as those accolades. However, I do try to be concise and group topics together rather than making several posts dedicated to the same subject, for the sake of brevity.

I'm not inferring anything negative about your posting style. I'm just saying that 3ball has a very distinct posting language, and I don't see what you've posted as anywhere near resembling it.

[Axe]

Sorry that i just can't help but think it's a coincidence that it spawned up shortly after the account was banned for how many days already.

[HoopsNY]

I'm not inferring anything negative about your posting style. I'm just saying that 3ball has a very distinct posting language, and I don't see what you've posted as anywhere near resembling it.

No no, no worries. I can assure you all that I'm not "3ball." I've been searching for an old school style forum to discuss basketball for some time.

[HoopsNY]

No worries.

[Da_Realist]

I do apologize for being rather wordy. However, when delving into such a topic with as many caveats, it simply cannot be explained by posting a set of accolades or a group of statistics. Those numbers have a context as well as those accolades. However, I do try to be concise and group topics together rather than making several posts dedicated to the same subject, for the sake of brevity.

Don't apologize. It's well needed because context and nuance is severely lacking and underappreciated on this message board.

[tpols]

3ball has a very specific style of posting and unless he's switched it up, that's not close to being it.


people are so shook, theyre seeing ghosts of 3ball. :lol

[TheCorporation]

people are so shook, theyre seeing ghosts of 3ball. :lol

3ball IS a ghost because I slay him in every thread

[Axe]

3ball IS a ghost because I slay him in every thread
Rofl you talk so big as if you weren't banished in this place at all days ago. 😹

[tpols]

3ball IS a ghost because I slay him in every thread

and yet... he still haunts your dreams mate.

[red1]

and yet... he still haunts your dreams mate.

dude 3ball is essential. he strengthened every argument for me. you NEED haters and trolls. otherwise its boring.

[TheCorporation]

and yet... he still haunts your dreams mate.

GhostBall

Slayed

[red1]

just got back from harvard and MIT and asked all the smartest guys there and we couldn't come up with shit. gotta say there really isnt much of a case anymore we just need to give goatboy #23 his due.



I just wish ray allen was never born... :(

[HoopsNY]

Anyhow, to respond to an earlier post that seemed to downplay Lebron's making of super-teams in light of Kevin Durant's move to GS (which I completely agree is bogus and KD's two rings are lesser in the eyes of many with valid reason).

Kevin Durant joins the Warriors in 2016, ultimately solidifying a title for the next two seasons. You could make the argument that LeBron would have won in those years, but I'm skeptical considering Kyrie ended up leaving in 2017, leaving really only one title up for grabs. But a more important question is - what about 2010-2016? In case some have forgotten, the Miami Heat and Cleveland Cavs faced mostly organic teams or teams that weren't all that great on paper.

The Mavericks weren't a star studded team. Dirk was their only all-star and he was surrounded by mostly has beens. No blockbuster free agent signings here.

OKC was organic. They didn't import KD, Westbrook, or Harden.

San Antonio was, well - San Antonio - a well oiled machine that will be talked about for decades. An organic team with a great coach.

Golden State in 2014-2016 - an organic team that built their stars from the ground up.

So ultimately, we have 6 years of Lebron playing with super-charged super-teams that he manufactured. This style, as we know it, is owned and operated by him. And if you are ultimately going to be the GM-Coach-Best Player, then you have to take the criticism that comes with it when you fail. The Lakers abysmal finish last season and missing the playoffs lands squarely on his shoulders. To believe otherwise is a bit naive and excuses the very core of who LBJ is - great player, not such a great leader.

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/MGR4Fm7m/GOATchipalltime.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/jSzDvzMx/tenor.gif

https://i.postimg.cc/9XNrQrGn/screen-shot-2018-05-21-at-11-42-59-am.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

Anyhow, to respond to an earlier post that seemed to downplay Lebron's making of super-teams in light of Kevin Durant's move to GS (which I completely agree is bogus and KD's two rings are lesser in the eyes of many with valid reason).

Kevin Durant joins the Warriors in 2016, ultimately solidifying a title for the next two seasons. You could make the argument that LeBron would have won in those years, but I'm skeptical considering Kyrie ended up leaving in 2017, leaving really only one title up for grabs. But a more important question is - what about 2010-2016? In case some have forgotten, the Miami Heat and Cleveland Cavs faced mostly organic teams or teams that weren't all that great on paper.

The Mavericks weren't a star studded team. Dirk was their only all-star and he was surrounded by mostly has beens. No blockbuster free agent signings here.

OKC was organic. They didn't import KD, Westbrook, or Harden.

San Antonio was, well - San Antonio - a well oiled machine that will be talked about for decades. An organic team with a great coach.

Golden State in 2014-2016 - an organic team that built their stars from the ground up.

So ultimately, we have 6 years of Lebron playing with super-charged super-teams that he manufactured. This style, as we know it, is owned and operated by him. And if you are ultimately going to be the GM-Coach-Best Player, then you have to take the criticism that comes with it when you fail. The Lakers abysmal finish last season and missing the playoffs lands squarely on his shoulders. To believe otherwise is a bit naive and excuses the very core of who LBJ is - great player, not such a great leader.
Agreed. Total facts. Is this oldschoolbball, btw?

[red1]

Anyhow, to respond to an earlier post that seemed to downplay Lebron's making of super-teams in light of Kevin Durant's move to GS (which I completely agree is bogus and KD's two rings are lesser in the eyes of many with valid reason).

Kevin Durant joins the Warriors in 2016, ultimately solidifying a title for the next two seasons. You could make the argument that LeBron would have won in those years, but I'm skeptical considering Kyrie ended up leaving in 2017, leaving really only one title up for grabs. But a more important question is - what about 2010-2016? In case some have forgotten, the Miami Heat and Cleveland Cavs faced mostly organic teams or teams that weren't all that great on paper.

The Mavericks weren't a star studded team. Dirk was their only all-star and he was surrounded by mostly has beens. No blockbuster free agent signings here.

OKC was organic. They didn't import KD, Westbrook, or Harden.

San Antonio was, well - San Antonio - a well oiled machine that will be talked about for decades. An organic team with a great coach.

Golden State in 2014-2016 - an organic team that built their stars from the ground up.

So ultimately, we have 6 years of Lebron playing with super-charged super-teams that he manufactured. This style, as we know it, is owned and operated by him. And if you are ultimately going to be the GM-Coach-Best Player, then you have to take the criticism that comes with it when you fail. The Lakers abysmal finish last season and missing the playoffs lands squarely on his shoulders. To believe otherwise is a bit naive and excuses the very core of who LBJ is - great player, not such a great leader.

only haters care about narratives like stacked teams or narratives like finals losses. here's a dirty secret - basketball is a team sport. you need good teammates and that's been the case for every championship team in NBA history. winning is all that matters and if bron originally stayed on the cavs and had a KG minnesota type treadmill career, the haters would just cling to the original ringless argument. never would've gotten kyrie in that case and who knows what happens in free agency.

again only haters care about finals losses - lebron won three championships and three finals MVPs and played well in the finals from 2012-2018. had some bad luck with injuries (2014,2015) and some bad luck running into the most stacked team of all time (2017,2018) but hey thats part of the game had some great luck as well, and 3 championships - thats a great result with that considered. especially the hometown ring in cleveland, had to get that one for the legacy.



plus that 3/3 finals-MVP to championship ratio is looking nice.

https://media.giphy.com/media/p0RDMJGgMXF96/giphy.gif

[SamuraiSWISH]

again only haters care about finals losses

Exactly. It's why Jerry West is the second best player ever AFTER Jordan.

[red1]

Exactly. It's why Jerry West is the second best player ever AFTER Jordan.

no he's not. :oldlol:


I'm guessing that was a joke? :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

no he's not. :oldlol:


I'm guessing that was a joke? :oldlol:
27/7/6 ... elite defender. Finals losses don't matter. Greatest mind / GM in the history of the game (I mean, duh, he's white after all) ... easily second best player ever.

[Turbo Slayer]

27/7/6 ... elite defender. Finals losses don't matter. Greatest mind / GM in the history of the game (I mean, duh, he's white after all) ... easily second best player ever.

You are a troll. I should known. No words are gonna convince you.

[red1]

27/7/6 ... elite defender. Finals losses don't matter. Greatest mind / GM in the history of the game (I mean, duh, he's white after all) ... easily second best player ever.

you can make a case for a lot of guys so I wont dismiss your argument even if you're joking around. jerry is a longshot for 2nd GOAT but hey you cant become the logo of the league and be a complete scrub, right?


agreed that MJ was a complete bonehead as a GM, surprising really for such a great player. maybe should've hired pippen as his VP or head of operations, aka the real brains.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You are a troll. I should known. No words are gonna convince you.
LOL I've seen Jordan and LeBron. Why would words matter? Mike was better.

[red1]

LOL I've seen Jordan and LeBron. Why would words matter? Mike was better.
thats a reasonable take. no shame in being compared to mj on the court. :confusedshrug:

[Turbo Slayer]

LOL I've seen Jordan and LeBron. Why would words matter? Mike was better. I agree that Mike was better than LeBron but the fact you continue to hate on LeBron after roughly around 14,000 posts is just insane.

You spent 7 years hating on LeBron. :biggums: 7 years wasted away!

LeBron is one of the greatest players ever and no circumstances are going to change that.

[Turbo Slayer]

No wonder ISH is past its prime. Its full of trolls.

Realgm is far superior in every way.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I agree that Mike was better than LeBron but the fact you continue to hate on LeBron after roughly around 14,000 posts is just insane.

You spent 7 years hating on LeBron. :biggums: 7 years wasted away!

LeBron is one of the greatest players ever and no circumstances are going to change that.
Where did I say he wasn't one of the GOATs?

[red1]

No wonder ISH is past its prime. Its full of trolls.

Realgm is far superior in every way.

**** outta here :roll:

[red1]

coach is a reasonable hater we need reasonable haters



if he starts posting about MJ being a great GM like 3ball then you'd know he's also insane.

[SamuraiSWISH]

In fact I've routinely stated he's top 5

[red1]

it makes the league fun when you have haters and when you have other teams and other players that are playing well. if kd comes back close to himself and kyrie heals his vag then that will also give the bucks some real competition.

lakers clippers
bucks nets


tell me thats not a great conference finals going both ways. getting the chance to piss on kawhi and PG and take the trophy from giannis - thats a legacy move.


I think lebron will get one with the lakers in the next two years and they wont win if he doesnt play well so he'd definitely get the finals MVP if they do win. AD is a monster and its incredible that lebron is still this athletic and in this condition at 35 so one more ring is very doable before the inevitable decline.


he can potentially end up with 4 rings 4 finals MVPs and as the all-time playoff scoring leader :roll:

[RRR3]

it makes the league fun when you have haters and when you have other teams and other players that are playing well. if kd comes back close to himself and kyrie heals his vag then that will also give the bucks some real competition.

lakers clippers
bucks nets


tell me thats not a great conference finals going both ways. getting the chance to piss on kawhi and PG and take the trophy from giannis - thats a legacy move.


I think lebron will get one with the lakers in the next two years and they wont win if he doesnt play well so he'd definitely get the finals MVP if they do win. AD is a monster and its incredible that lebron is still this athletic and in this condition at 35 so one more ring is very doable before the inevitable decline.


he can potentially end up with 4 rings 4 finals MVPs and as the all-time playoff scoring leader :roll:
Nonstop meltdowns by 3ball if that happens.

[red1]

Nonstop meltdowns by 3ball if that happens.

3ball already lost. I beat him in every single debate. if lebron retired today he already tied larry bird for rings with the third ring and surpassed him for finals MVPs with the third. plus lebron's career holds up to every scrutiny as the superior career. bird is 3ball's 2nd best of all time.


3ball used to argue that lebron wont end up top-15 and would never win again after the ray allen fluke. all these paragraphs and essays and stats to try to prove that lebron wasnt top-15 could never win "too ball dominant" he said. and then predictably "buh buh ray allen" became "buh buh kyrie." ALL of those repeated posts that he spammed over the years: "not top-15" he said. :roll:

he's already top-5 if he retired today - someone get me a shannon sharpe or james worthy victory cigar gif. :roll:

[Axe]

No wonder ISH is past its prime. Its full of trolls.
It's a place with no discipline nor decent civilization.

[TheCorporation]

Imagine 1000 more playoff points (6900 to 5900) in the same # of playoffs (13) because one guy only won 6 ECF (MJ) and the other won 9 ECF (LBJ). Plus one had ZERO 1st round defeats and the other had three 1st round defeats.

We. Stay. Winning.

[Turbo Slayer]

coach is a reasonable hater we need reasonable haters



if he starts posting about MJ being a great GM like 3ball then you'd know he's also insane. True.

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/4NHDx8Zb/Playoff-Leaders.png

No one can refute this

[HoopsNY]

Hi red1, I don't think disagreeing with LeBron being the GOAT renders a person a "hater." I think you can disagree with the status given to a particular player by some and still maintain that that player is one of the greatest, especially with regards to these criticisms.

Having said that, I do want to clarify that my previous post was in response to someone else who tried to minimize Kevin Durant's manufactured championships, while maximizing LeBron James'. It does not take away from LeBron as an individual player or his (many) talents, but it does call into question his most prized accomplishments.

While I agree that you do need teammates to win a championship, you don't necessarily need to stack your team with the league's best or the league's many all-stars. This has certainly been the case with LeBron over the course of the last 10 years. I do think that the KG comparison is fair. But have you considered that KG was just not as great as people made him out to be? After all, he got knocked off by Tim Duncan in the 1999 playoffs, despite having a guy like Terrell Brandon while Tim Duncan had an aged David Robinson with a bunch of mediocre players.

KG then made it to the Western Conference finals in 2004 against LA and lost. Yet Tim Duncan won an NBA championship and beat a Kobe and Shaq duo just the previous year, with no other all-stars and what was perceivably a very weaker team. Again, little help but that didn't stop Duncan from overcoming the odds, even against a team with two of the greatest players of all time. KG couldn't overcome this.

Maybe KG just wasn't as great as some thought he was?

Karl Malone couldn't beat MJ. Okay, that's fair. But couldn't he have beaten Hakeem in the 1993-94 playoffs? After all, the Rockets had no other all-stars other than Hakeem, and the Jazz had two, yet they lost. But fine, he lost then. What happened to the following season? The Rockets added Clyde Drexler, then went 17-18. Vernon Maxwell took a leave of absence and the Rockets were a 6th seed in the Western Conference. Their season finished in complete disarray. The Jazz were a 60 win team and heavily favored to beat them in the first round, even going up 2-1. But what happened? Hakeem and the Rockets win the next two games and ultimately the series.

Maybe, Karl Malone wasn't as great as some thought he was?

LeBron was in a very weak Eastern Conference, for much of his career. Kobe Bryant was in a stacked western conference. For example, in 2007-08, leading his team the best record in the West with all 8 teams winning 50 or more games. Lebron ultimately loses that year to Boston (as does LA). But the next two seasons are interesting. Lebron loses to both Orlando and Boston, two teams that Kobe Bryant ended up beating in the NBA finals.

That loss that LBJ took to Orlando came on the back of his 66 win, heavily favored team. But for some reason, he lost that series and Kobe didn't to the same team.

So if it's good for Duncan. If it's good for Hakeem. If it's good for Kobe. Then surely it must be for LeBron? And if it's all about having bad teammates, then what happens when you have good teammates - like in 2011 - like in 2014 - like in 2017?

I think these are valid questions and considering NBA history, we find conflicting evidence that goes against what you're saying. Food for thought, let me know what you think.

[HoopsNY]

One again, I apologize for the lengthy posts.

[Axe]

One again, I apologize for the lengthy posts.
It's ok, three-.. i mean dude.

[HoopsNY]

https://i.postimg.cc/4NHDx8Zb/Playoff-Leaders.png

No one can refute this

Sure you can. Michael Jordan has the highest career ppg in both the playoffs (33.4) and finals (33.6).

Tony Parker has more playoff points (4,045) than Dwyane Wade (3,954)

James Worthy has more finals points (754) than Wilt Chamberlain (652).

Surely we can't judge scoring just based on that one picture you posted. There is a greater context that should be considered.

[HoopsNY]

Imagine 1000 more playoff points (6900 to 5900) in the same # of playoffs (13) because one guy only won 6 ECF (MJ) and the other won 9 ECF (LBJ). Plus one had ZERO 1st round defeats and the other had three 1st round defeats.

We. Stay. Winning.

Hi TheCorporation, it is impressive that LBJ has gone to as many finals as he has. However, I think you're overlooking a couple of things.

1- MJ had 3 first round exits, correct. But the Eastern Conference was much more competitive than during LBJ's time. Consider that two of the three teams Chicago got bounced by were the Boston Celtics. Both years the Celtics were the #1 seed in the East, and one of those years - 1985-86 - the Celtics put together arguably the most remarkable season and team ever. The 1984-85 Milwaukee Bucks were a great team as well.

2- LeBron James has missed the playoffs 3 times, which I would regard as being worse than getting bounced from the first round. MJ never missed a playoffs with Chicago. And while he did miss it the two years with Washington, it should be noted that he returned as a favor to the league at nearly the age of 40.

So I'm unsure how you draw the parallels while disregarding the notable differences, particularly in the strength of conferences.

[TheCorporation]

Sure you can. Michael Jordan has the highest career ppg in both the playoffs (33.4) and finals (33.6).

Tony Parker has more playoff points (4,045) than Dwyane Wade (3,954)

James Worthy has more finals points (754) than Wilt Chamberlain (652).

Surely we can't judge scoring just based on that one picture you posted. There is a greater context that should be considered.

Top 5 baby boi

Sorry MJ's career was struggling his 1st three years before Tree Trunk Pippen saved the day.

[nizroc]

@ HoopsNY Very well said sir. Guys, this is what real analysis looks like.

[HoopsNY]

Top 5 baby boi

Sorry MJ's career was struggling his 1st three years before Tree Trunk Pippen saved the day.

No need to apologize to me : ). Although I do find it interesting that you're ignoring my post in favor of red herrings.

[Axe]

No need to apologize to me : ). Although I do find it interesting that you're ignoring my post in favor of red herrings.
Too bad you won't have any decent discussions with those ignorant trolls. So it's best to not waste your time as much as possible.

[TheCorporation]

No need to apologize to me : ). Although I do find it interesting that you're ignoring my post in favor of red herrings.

I will not punish LeBron for making more Finals. I will not reward MJ for making less. They made 13 playoffs.

As for not making it, MJ also missed 2 years in the playoffs and SEVERAL weak playoff runs.

In 13 playoffs a piece:

MJ won the East 6 times
LBJ won the East 9 times

MJ has 3x 1st round exits
LBJ has 0x 1st round exits

MJ has 9 game winners
LBJ has 10 game winners

MJ has 5987 points
LBJ has 6911 points

In 13 playoffs a piece...And let's not even talk about defense, rebounding, passing, leadership, IQ, etc.

Anything else?

[Axe]

Lol all these finger-pointing just to downplay the feats of a great athlete that they have an eternal loathe for. How desperate.