The reason why luka wont win multiple chips

[Bronbron23]

Defense. His defense just isnt very good and pretty much every great player that won a chip in the last 30 years was a good to great defender. Theres only 2 teams in the last 30 years that has. 15 warriors with curry and 11 mavs with dirk and they both only won 1 chip.

[SpaceJam2]

MJ was an average defender and did just fine.

Give Luka his Pippen and he is good to go

[Marchesk]

MJ was an average defender and did just fine.

Give Luka his Pippen and he is good to go

Ban worthy comment

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He can't be any worse than Magic. Well that's probably not true because of height, but my point is they can hide him defensively.

I'd match Luka up with bigger/slower non-centers.

He can always improve in that area though. Ditto with his in-between game. The argument that Luka has maxed out in skill is incorrect.

[SpaceJam2]

Ban worthy comment

Who is a better defender then, MJ or LBJ?

[Marchesk]

Who is a better defender then, MJ or LBJ?

Hmmm, let's ask 3Ball.

[DMAVS41]

There are likely going to be far bigger reasons he doesn't win multiple chips.

The main reason he likely will fail to win multiple titles...is that he, like most players in history, won't play on enough teams that are good enough to win 2 titles.

To use the Dirk comparison, if Luka got similar help...it will be extremely hard to get 1, let alone 2 titles.

Very hard to win titles if the help is good to really good at times, but the competition is better players on better teams for the majority of his career.

Is there a player in the league right now in which you would put on the Mavs in place of Luka and would then expect them to win the title?

You can talk about defense or mid-range...whatever...and, of course, those aspects of basketball matter...but what matters more...is having better players.

I'd like the chances of Luka winning 2 plus titles if we put Giannis on this team. Not sure what is hard to understand.

[DMAVS41]

Was it also defense and lack of mid-range game that prevented Kevin Garnett from winning multiple titles?

I'd like to know...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Was it also defense and lack of mid-range game that prevented Kevin Garnett from winning multiple titles?

I'd like to know...

Is this directed at me?

If so, well, I'm responding to the OP and his premise. Nothing more. He's also made the argument that Luka's basically plateaued in skill. I reject that notion obviously.

[DMAVS41]

Is this directed at me?

If so, well, I'm responding to the OP and his premise. Nothing more. He's also made the argument that Luka's basically plateaued in skill. I reject that notion obviously.

No, not at all...it is directed at the OP and this group of posters that insist the mid-range game is the direct cause of titles...acting like teammates don't matter.

[Andrei89]

Ban worthy comment


Agreed.

Reported

[FultzNationRISE]

Kobe played shit defense and won multiple titles. Granted he wasnt “the man” for arguably any of them, but casual fans still consider him a great player cause he once scored 81 against a non playoff team or something.



So I dunno :confusedshrug:

[Lebron23]

He is going to be tested in the playoffs.

[ArbitraryWater]

Is OP the worst new poster of ISH?

My God

[Lebron23]

Is OP the worst new poster of ISH?

My God
He is silktheshocker, or that fat, black guy who's stanning Jordan.

[SwayDizzle]

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE]Kobe played shit defense and won multiple titles. Granted he wasnt

[LAL]

The Bron-parasites turn every topic into a clown show.

[k0kakw0rld]

LeBron didn't make the playoffs until year 3 playing in the Eastern Conference.

Shut the **** up op. The kid is 20 scaring the shit out of you.

[ArbitraryWater]

He is silktheshocker, or that fat, black guy who's stanning Jordan.

SilkkTheShocker?

WTF thats a HORRIBLE guess.

They couldn't be any more different.

In case you didn't notice, Silkk is a LeBron fan.

[Lebron23]

LeBron didn't make the playoffs until year 3 playing in the Eastern Conference.

Shut the **** up op. The kid is 20 scaring the shit out of you.
OP is 3ball/ StraightBallin masquerading as a LeBron fan.and Luka is closer to 21 cause he was born in February.

[ImKobe]

Defense. His defense just isnt very good and pretty much every great player that won a chip in the last 30 years was a good to great defender. Theres only 2 teams in the last 30 years that has. 15 warriors with curry and 11 mavs with dirk and they both only won 1 chip.

Why are you saying that there's only 2 teams? Curry played on the 2017 and 2018 Warriors, the 2018 team wasn't even top 10 defensively. 2016 Cavs were 10th on defense.

[Lebron23]

SilkkTheShocker?

WTF thats a HORRIBLE guess.

They couldn't be any more different.

In case you didn't notice, Silkk is a LeBron fan.
I am studying and analysing his posts it looks like a 3ball account.

[SouBeachTalents]

SilkkTheShocker?

WTF thats a HORRIBLE guess.

They couldn't be any more different.

In case you didn't notice, Silkk is a LeBron fan.
For real, he posts absolutely NOTHING like Silk did :oldlol:

[Micku]

Pttf. As other ppl said, it depends on his teams.

Defense? Yeah, it could be a problem. I think it's less so on the individual player than the team. If he becomes so good defensively that the impact is great then that would totally help his chances.

But if not, then they would have to surround him with good defenders to hide him. It's possible that teams could exploit Luka on defense so bad, especially if they have a great one on one player.

Luka could improve enough to be solid on d. We'll see. And you would have to wonder how will he perform in the playoffs. Would be like James Harden and have his performance decrease or will he be consistent or be even better? That's the main thing I'm curious about. Defense could come later.

[Loco 50]

Is OP the worst new poster of ISH?

My God
Garbage poster calling another poster garbage.:roll:

Oh, the ironing.

[Gileraracer]

That's why Lebron lost 6 finals despite alltime stacked teams - his lack of defense.

[Indian guy]

lol you know you have made it when they're picking apart your defense at 21. How about we give him some time to round out his game? How many perimeter players were good on D from the get-go? Practically none. The guy is already dominant on offense (the more important side of the ball). I'm sure he'll get better on D too with time. And you don't need to be a good individual defender to win championships if you have a good enough defensive team around you.

[Manny98]

This is how you know Jordan stans are pathetic, threatened by kid a who's younger than me :roll:

[Bronbron23]

Was it also defense and lack of mid-range game that prevented Kevin Garnett from winning multiple titles?

I'd like to know...
No obviously not. Kg was great at both. Look im not saying if a player is great in both aspects hes guaranteed to win multiple chips or even any but players who do win multiple chips tend to have these aspects more thsn not. Of course other factors matter also. Teammates, coaching leadership etc.

[Bronbron23]

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE]Kobe played shit defense and won multiple titles. Granted he wasnt

[Bronbron23]

This is how you know Jordan stans are pathetic, threatened by kid a who's younger than me :roll:
Im not a mj stan for one. Ive argued many times witb mj stans on here about things like the importance of pip and phil and how mj wasnt as good of a human being as lebron and others.

And im not threatened by luka. For one i actually like him alot. His skill and confidence at his age is insane. Hes also very exciting to watch. If i end up being wrong about him winning multiple chips ill be good with that. And honestly even if i was a luka hater i still wouldn't be threatened because theres no way hes gonna come close to mj anyway.

[ArbitraryWater]

Garbage poster calling another poster garbage.:roll:

Oh, the ironing.

Well, at least we agree OP is absolute garbage.

[Hawker]

In the late 2000s, a poster by the name of CJMustard made a thread called

[DMAVS41]

No obviously not. Kg was great at both. Look im not saying if a player is great in both aspects hes guaranteed to win multiple chips or even any but players who do win multiple chips tend to have these aspects more thsn not. Of course other factors matter also. Teammates, coaching leadership etc.

Yea, but those teammates seem to matter the most...right?

Like I pointed out to you...Dirk/KG/CP3 have 2 titles combined. The KG title was on a legit 3-star team. Hell, you can include Durant pre Warriors as that was just unfair...and you'd have 4 of the best mid-range shooters ever having a combined 2 titles in like 60 years plus of play.

Just not sure what is hard about admitting that the teams with the best players are the ones usually winning the most titles. We all know Kobe's mid-range/defense.. wouldn't have led to titles playing on the Timberwolves. And I hesitate to include defense because not much paints him as anything but average to slightly above average on that end for the majority of his career after he started scoring a lot.

Giannis losing last year or this year if he does...is going to have far more to do with the fact that Middleton/Bledsoe likely just isn't good enough to win it all against the competition. It won't be because he lacks a mid-range jumper on par with Dirk...because if he had that...he might be the GOAT.

And plenty of players have won while playing at a level worse than what Giannis is currently doing.

Just seems like a narrow and flawed analysis to me to pick out these certain aspects while ignoring the reality of these guys playing on teams with the best players.

[RRR3]

Yea, but those teammates seem to matter the most...right?

Like I pointed out to you...Dirk/KG/CP3 have 2 titles combined. The KG title was on a legit 3-star team. Hell, you can include Durant pre Warriors as that was just unfair...and you'd have 4 of the best mid-range shooters ever having a combined 2 titles in like 60 years plus of play.

Just not sure what is hard about admitting that the teams with the best players are the ones usually winning the most titles. We all know Kobe's mid-range/defense.. wouldn't have led to titles playing on the Timberwolves. And I hesitate to include defense because not much paints him as anything but average to slightly above average on that end for the majority of his career after he started scoring a lot.

Giannis losing last year or this year if he does...is going to have far more to do with the fact that Middleton/Bledsoe likely just isn't good enough to win it all against the competition. It won't be because he lacks a mid-range jumper on par with Dirk...because if he had that...he might be the GOAT.

And plenty of players have won while playing at a level worse than what Giannis is currently doing.

Just seems like a narrow and flawed analysis to me to pick out these certain aspects while ignoring the reality of these guys playing on teams with the best players.
But ImKobe told me Kobe is the best defensive guard of all time...

[Bronbron23]

Yea, but those teammates seem to matter the most...right?

Like I pointed out to you...Dirk/KG/CP3 have 2 titles combined. The KG title was on a legit 3-star team. Hell, you can include Durant pre Warriors as that was just unfair...and you'd have 4 of the best mid-range shooters ever having a combined 2 titles in like 60 years plus of play.

Just not sure what is hard about admitting that the teams with the best players are the ones usually winning the most titles. We all know Kobe's mid-range/defense.. wouldn't have led to titles playing on the Timberwolves. And I hesitate to include defense because not much paints him as anything but average to slightly above average on that end for the majority of his career after he started scoring a lot.

Giannis losing last year or this year if he does...is going to have far more to do with the fact that Middleton/Bledsoe likely just isn't good enough to win it all against the competition. It won't be because he lacks a mid-range jumper on par with Dirk...because if he had that...he might be the GOAT.

And plenty of players have won while playing at a level worse than what Giannis is currently doing.

Just seems like a narrow and flawed analysis to me to pick out these certain aspects while ignoring the reality of these guys playing on teams with the best players.
I think i actually did admit that most times tha best plsyers win championships. My point was that a big part of what makes them the best is that they are great defenders and great from midrange and or the post.

[Bronbron23]

Is OP the worst new poster of ISH?

My God
Get out that glass house bruh :facepalm

[Bronbron23]

LeBron didn't make the playoffs until year 3 playing in the Eastern Conference.

Shut the **** up op. The kid is 20 scaring the shit out of you.
How is he scaring me? Im actually a fan. I just dont think hes gonna win a chip for the reason i said. Not sure what lebron has to do with that.

[ImKobe]

But ImKobe told me Kobe is the best defensive guard of all time...

So y'all(and the media) have no problem calling Klay an elite defender but you never bring up his BPM numbers like you do with Kobe (they aren't accurate to begin with) for some reason. Kobe was picking up guys 94 ft and played the best man defense you will ever see. Yes, he gambled more and picked his spots on terrible teams because he had to carry a large load offensively and the communication was non-existent on those teams, but he would play lockdown defense in crunch time when they needed him to, just go back and look at Game 7 against Boston.

I love how Kobe gets called an "average defender" by the haters on ISH while the was guarding opposing ball-handlers for all his title runs instead of teams hiding his average/terrible defense, how come he played on so many elite defensive teams? How come prime/peak Lebron struggled scoring whenever Kobe was on him? How come a 34 y.o Kobe locked down peak Lebron in crunch time?

[RRR3]

So y'all(and the media) have no problem calling Klay an elite defender but you never bring up his BPM numbers like you do with Kobe (they aren't accurate to begin with) for some reason. Kobe was picking up guys 94 ft and played the best man defense you will ever see. Yes, he gambled more and picked his spots on terrible teams because he had to carry a large load offensively and the communication was non-existent on those teams, but he would play lockdown defense in crunch time when they needed him to, just go back and look at Game 7 against Boston.

I love how Kobe gets called an "average defender" by the haters on ISH while the was guarding opposing ball-handlers for all his title runs instead of teams hiding his average/terrible defense, how come he played on so many elite defensive teams? How come prime/peak Lebron struggled scoring whenever Kobe was on him? How come a 34 y.o Kobe locked down peak Lebron in crunch time?
LeBron dominated Kobe head to head, so not sure what your point is. If Kobe was so good at guarding him maybe he should have been the primary defender on LeBron instead of letting LeBron go 16-6 against his teams.

I never watched Kobe at his best but his defense was quite bad in 2012 and 2013, the two years of his prime I saw. And Phil Jackson claimed Kobe stopped playing consistent defense in the early 2000s.

[BigShotBob]

LeBron dominated Kobe head to head, so not sure what your point is. If Kobe was so good at guarding him maybe he should have been the primary defender on LeBron instead of letting LeBron go 16-6 against his teams.

I never watched Kobe at his best but his defense was quite bad in 2012 and 2013, the two years of his prime I saw. And Phil Jackson claimed Kobe stopped playing consistent defense in the early 2000s.

Wtf how old are you? :lol

[ImKobe]

LeBron dominated Kobe head to head, so not sure what your point is. If Kobe was so good at guarding him maybe he should have been the primary defender on LeBron instead of letting LeBron go 16-6 against his teams.

I never watched Kobe at his best but his defense was quite bad in 2012 and 2013, the two years of his prime I saw. And Phil Jackson claimed Kobe stopped playing consistent defense in the early 2000s.

Ever heard of a screen? 2012 and 2013 is his prime? So I guess Lebron is currently in his prime as well, right?

[knicksman]

Yea, but those teammates seem to matter the most...right?

Like I pointed out to you...Dirk/KG/CP3 have 2 titles combined. The KG title was on a legit 3-star team. Hell, you can include Durant pre Warriors as that was just unfair...and you'd have 4 of the best mid-range shooters ever having a combined 2 titles in like 60 years plus of play.

Just not sure what is hard about admitting that the teams with the best players are the ones usually winning the most titles. We all know Kobe's mid-range/defense.. wouldn't have led to titles playing on the Timberwolves. And I hesitate to include defense because not much paints him as anything but average to slightly above average on that end for the majority of his career after he started scoring a lot.

Giannis losing last year or this year if he does...is going to have far more to do with the fact that Middleton/Bledsoe likely just isn't good enough to win it all against the competition. It won't be because he lacks a mid-range jumper on par with Dirk...because if he had that...he might be the GOAT.

And plenty of players have won while playing at a level worse than what Giannis is currently doing.

Just seems like a narrow and flawed analysis to me to pick out these certain aspects while ignoring the reality of these guys playing on teams with the best players.


because the primary role of a 1st option is to score and not to defend, not to pass but to score esp when your team needs you to score. If you cant do that primary role, youre not a true 1st option. And to be able to do it, you need to have that midrange game. If you really think every skill is equal then why is it that its usually the scorers that wins in this league, not the DPOY or the passers but the scorers.

And this is how important that midrange game. Put lebron in those bulls teams and they might not even win 1 or put lebron in last years raptors team and theyre not winning.

[Bronbron23]

because the primary role of a 1st option is to score and not to defend, not to pass but to score esp when your team needs you to score. If you cant do that primary role, youre not a true 1st option. And to be able to do it, you need to have that midrange game. If you really think every skill is equal then why is it that its usually the scorers that wins in this league, not the DPOY or the passers but the scorers.

And this is how important that midrange game. Put lebron in those bulls teams and they might not even win 1 or put lebron in last years raptors team and theyre not winning.
The LeBron part is the interesting. I actually think if LeBron played within a system for a great coach he would of won alot more. It's a big if though. He'd have to play in the post and off ball more which dosnt seem to interest him. If a coach could convince him to though I think he could win as many as mj. That boat has sailed though and he chose Stats and the ball dominance path. He still got 3 chips out of it though which is still pretty good.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Lol @ the blatant racism.

I dont report people very often, but I make exceptions when it comes to racism or bigotry.

[tanibanana]

2006 Miami Heat

[Bronbron23]

Lol @ the blatant racism.

I dont report people very often, but I make exceptions when it comes to racism or bigotry.
Blatant racism ? Saying he won't win because of his defence is racists now? Ive said the same about harden. Is that racist too?

[knicksman]

The LeBron part is the interesting. I actually think if LeBron played within a system for a great coach he would of won alot more. It's a big if though. He'd have to play in the post and off ball more which dosnt seem to interest him. If a coach could convince him to though I think he could win as many as mj. That boat has sailed though and he chose Stats and the ball dominance path. He still got 3 chips out of it though which is still pretty good.

Lebrons personality is to take the easy route as possible thats why the decision. Hes afraid of failure. Winning is like business. You want to be rich, you have to take the risk and you know how bad business would be if you go bankrupt compared to just working. Same with lebron, hes afraid to sacrifice stats and be known as just another dominique thats why hes not willing to take the risk. Kobe/jordans mentality is ring or bust. They will do anything for it even if they will be labeled as another dominique if they fail. They are willing to sacrifice stats and I dont know if a coach could really change lebrons mentality. I feel like youre born with it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lebrons personality is to take the easy route as possible thats why the decision. Hes afraid of failure. Winning is like business. You want to be rich, you have to take the risk and you know how bad business would be if you go bankrupt compared to just working. Same with lebron, hes afraid to sacrifice stats and be known as just another dominique thats why hes not willing to take the risk. Kobe/jordans mentality is ring or bust. They will do anything for it even if they will be labeled as another dominique if they fail. They are willing to sacrifice stats and I dont know if a coach could really change lebrons mentality. I feel like youre born with it.

Its probably trolling to say that about Lebron, but he plays for numbers like no other player I've seen.

Never watched Wilt obviously. Going by testimonials and what history says about him though, he might've been similar.

The both of them are dominant ATGs. Top 10 of all-time. But you get the sense there's something missing. A lack of purity if you will. More with Lebron than Wilt to be fair.

[DMAVS41]

because the primary role of a 1st option is to score and not to defend, not to pass but to score esp when your team needs you to score. If you cant do that primary role, youre not a true 1st option. And to be able to do it, you need to have that midrange game. If you really think every skill is equal then why is it that its usually the scorers that wins in this league, not the DPOY or the passers but the scorers.

And this is how important that midrange game. Put lebron in those bulls teams and they might not even win 1 or put lebron in last years raptors team and theyre not winning.

I don't think every skill is equal at all.

Individual offense overall is clearly more valuable than individual defense.

I'm just saying that the teams with the best players usually win...and so when you and this mid-range fetish thing start trying to attribute that as the main cause of titles...I just don't have patience for it.

Again, some of the best mid-range shooters ever have like 2 titles in 60 years of play....teammates matter a whole lot more than any single skill in basketball.

And, again, I love the wing post and mid-range shot. I completely agree that it matters for winning...but it isn't overcoming team strength like 99 out of 100 times. So focusing on it as the cause of titles is flawed...doesn't make it not important...it just isn't what you want it to be.

Again, do you really think the Warriors would have beaten the Rockets in 18 if the Rockets had current Giannis?

[LAL]

I don't think every skill is equal at all.

Individual offense overall is clearly more valuable than individual defense.

I'm just saying that the teams with the best players usually win...and so when you and this mid-range fetish thing start trying to attribute that as the main cause of titles...I just don't have patience for it.

Again, some of the best mid-range shooters ever have like 2 titles in 60 years of play....teammates matter a whole lot more than any single skill in basketball.

And, again, I love the wing post and mid-range shot. I completely agree that it matters for winning...but it isn't overcoming team strength like 99 out of 100 times. So focusing on it as the cause of titles is flawed...doesn't make it not important...it just isn't what you want it to be.

Again, do you really think the Warriors would have beaten the Rockets in 18 if the Rockets had current Giannis?
2 of the best midrange players were 6/6 (mj) and 5/7 (kobe) in a decade, Kawhi is going for his third. Your "what ifs" sceniarios are funny and your stubborn. Acting like you named the best midrange shooters in kg, cp3 and dirk, How many chips does duncan have? 2 way players with great midrange is extremely important. As long as giannis can't win, it his fault because the least you need to have is a ****ing jumpshot. Magic johnson was not a good midrange player, he did have the showtime lakers and kareem tho, same with bron and his great all star closers. (3/9)

[kentatm]

In the late 2000s, a poster by the name of CJMustard made a thread called “A dirk led team will never win a title.”

We saw how that worked out. Hopefully things go the same way for Luka.


https://media0.giphy.com/media/3oEhmVqfaeh98rcZNu/giphy.gif

:lol :applause:

[DMAVS41]

2 of the best midrange players were 6/6 (mj) and 5/7 (kobe) in a decade, Kawhi is going for his third. Your "what ifs" sceniarios are funny and your stubborn. Acting like you named the best midrange shooters in kg, cp3 and dirk, How many chips does duncan have? 2 way players with great midrange is extremely important. As long as giannis can't win, it his fault because the least you need to have is a ****ing jumpshot. Magic johnson was not a good midrange player, he did have the showtime lakers and kareem tho, same with bron and his great all star closers. (3/9)

Yep...it had nothing to do with help. Good point.

Always funny when someone thinks they are making a point in their favor, but in reality make the opposite.

Listing "help" for the reason Lebron or Magic won...while not listing it for guys like Kobe or Leonard is the height of ignorance.

You should educate yourself on just how good Shaq was...and, I don't know, maybe realize that the Raptors have been winning at a 60 win pace without Leonard the last 2 years now.

Just a thought.

Also, Dirk/CP3/KG are some of the best mid-range players ever. When it comes to CP3/KG...they were also very good defensively...which was also brought up here. KG being on the short list of greatest defender ever. That is the point...if it was such a big factor...those guys would have won more. But they didn't...why? Because other teams had better players for the majority of their careers. Again, this shouldn't be hard to follow.

I'm a huge Duncan guy, but to act like Duncan won because of his mid-range/defense over KG is, again, just ignorant. I think Duncan was actually the better player, but he isn't winning shit in place of KG on the Wolves while KG is for sure winning multiple titles on the Spurs.

Wake up please.

And, no, Giannis losing with Middleton/Bledsoe doesn't mean shit when historically that isn't enough to win titles and certainly isn't close to the best supporting cast a star currently has in the league.

Try again...

And so, when it comes to this Luka crap. One could make that argument when he gets his Shaq/Pippen/Pau...roster capable of winning 50 to 60 without him...etc....and consistently loses. You don't get to make these arguments when he's playing with a bunch of castoff players and a guy coming off major injury. Luka isn't going to lose this year because of a flaw in his game...he could be a much better mid-range shooter and better defensively...and this team would still likely lose in the first or 2nd round depending on who they played.

But, this supporting cast? And you clowns are arguing that he's not going to win because he doesn't play like Kobe? LOL...peak Kobe is about drawing dead to get out of the 2nd round with this team unless Porzingis greatly raises his level. Again...educate yourself.

Luka/Giannis/Harden are currently leading the 3 best offenses in the league. They don't have the best supporting casts by any means...imagine looking at that and thinking they are the problem. LOL

[Bronbron23]

Lebrons personality is to take the easy route as possible thats why the decision. Hes afraid of failure. Winning is like business. You want to be rich, you have to take the risk and you know how bad business would be if you go bankrupt compared to just working. Same with lebron, hes afraid to sacrifice stats and be known as just another dominique thats why hes not willing to take the risk. Kobe/jordans mentality is ring or bust. They will do anything for it even if they will be labeled as another dominique if they fail. They are willing to sacrifice stats and I dont know if a coach could really change lebrons mentality. I feel like youre born with it.
I still thinks he wants to win i just think he truly thinks he can do it with his ball dominant style of play. He thinks he can get his stats and chips but its much harder that way. This is why i always thought mj was a better leader because he sacrificed his stats a bit for winning.

[LAL]

Listing "help" for the reason Lebron or Magic won...while not listing it for guys like Kobe or Leonard is the height of ignorance.
Kobe three peated with shaq and role players, and almost three peated with pau. MJ with pippen and role players, Kawhi won once as the man, and once as 3th option but finals mvp, and not slowing down and still young but showed you how important his skill set really is come playoff time. Lebron and Magic are not on MJ/Kobe level as far as getting most out of teams because of the superteams they played on. Kawhi is somewhere on dirk's level right now and quickly going to pass him.

You should educate yourself on just how good Shaq was...and, I don't know, maybe realize that the Raptors have been winning at a 60 win pace without Leonard the last 2 years now.
It's like Magic playing with Kareem and a superteam except kobe only needed a "kareem" or less as he proved it.



Also, Dirk/CP3/KG are some of the best mid-range players ever. When it comes to CP3/KG...they were also very good defensively...which was also brought up here. KG being on the short list of greatest defender ever. That is the point...if it was such a big factor...those guys would have won more. But they didn't...why? Because other teams had better players for the majority of their careers. Again, this shouldn't be hard to follow.
That's why i have duncan lower than Kobe on my list, but since he won 5 with a great team and system and i don't do "what ifs" like you, and he was just as good as those guys you mentioned, just means they lost to an other great 2way player with a better team, what are you trying to prove?


I'm a huge Duncan guy, but to act like Duncan won because of his mid-range/defense over KG is, again, just ignorant. I think Duncan was actually the better player, but he isn't winning shit in place of KG on the Wolves while KG is for sure winning multiple titles on the Spurs.
Just as good and a better winner at the end of the day.



And, no, Giannis losing with Middleton/Bledsoe doesn't mean shit when historically that isn't enough to win titles and certainly isn't close to the best supporting cast a star currently has in the league.
They would go much further if giannis had a great jumper. The bucks sure couldn't use that succesful "close the paint down" defense on Kawhi like they did with Giannis in the playoffs.




But, this supporting cast? And you clowns are arguing that he's not going to win because he doesn't play like Kobe? LOL...peak Kobe is about drawing dead to get out of the 2nd round with this team unless Porzingis greatly raises his level. Again...educate yourself.
Kobe had Waaaay more succes with less than a dirk or whoever your favorite is, not because of great teams, but because he hardly had any weaknesses unlike all the players you mentioned, therefore didn't need as much help.


Man imagine if Kobe had steve nash, Michael finley and solid role players instead of smush and chris mihm.

[julizaver]

Defense. His defense just isnt very good and pretty much every great player that won a chip in the last 30 years was a good to great defender. Theres only 2 teams in the last 30 years that has. 15 warriors with curry and 11 mavs with dirk and they both only won 1 chip.

Luka and Dallas is like happy marriage. This season Dallas nad Doncic blended perfectly and still got room to improve. They've got nice offense and have guys who can defend. If they stay injury free they hidden favourite behind Lakers and Clippers in the west. Why - they have great coach and a good core of young guys. Rockets are not going to win tittle soon. They were better with CP than with Russell. And can't wait to see Doncic in the playoffs - this kid proved wrong all his critics and doubters. He is a born winner and he can play under pressure, he is like living for those close situation.

[Bronbron23]

Luka and Dallas is like happy marriage. This season Dallas nad Doncic blended perfectly and still got room to improve. They've got nice offense and have guys who can defend. If they stay injury free they hidden favourite behind Lakers and Clippers in the west. Why - they have great coach and a good core of young guys. Rockets are not going to win tittle soon. They were better with CP than with Russell. And can't wait to see Doncic in the playoffs - this kid proved wrong all his critics and doubters. He is a born winner and he can play under pressure, he is like living for those close situation.
I agree with all of that but he still has to deal with clippers for the next 2 or three years or until kawhi declines and then after that he'll have to deal with greek. Its not like im saying he wont win multiple chips because he sucks. Im saying i dont think he will because for the next 10 years or so he has to deal with 2 guys who have close to the same impact on offense but who are way better defensively.

The only argument i can see against this is that luka is only 20 and should potentially get much better but i just dont see it happening. Typically guys who get way better are guys who are very athletic but havnt fully developed there skills. Luka is the opposite of this. Hes already crazy skilled and not all that athletic. Because he so skilled i dont see a whole lot of room for improvement there and its not like hes gonna get more athletic so i just cant see it happening.

[NBASTATMAN]

When Kristaps rounds into shape the Mavs win at least 3-5 titles with Luka.. Luka is coming into a league where most of the great players are aging and are injured. KD would have taken the league over but he tore his achilees .

So Luka is next up cuz Kawhi is not going to be able to do it for that long. The dude is currently the best but he is just injured too much..

[sammichoffate]

I agree with all of that but he still has to deal with clippers for the next 2 or three years or until kawhi declines and then after that he'll have to deal with greek. Its not like im saying he wont win multiple chips because he sucks. Im saying i dont think he will because for the next 10 years or so he has to deal with 2 guys who have close to the same impact on offense but who are way better defensively.

The only argument i can see against this is that luka is only 20 and should potentially get much better but i just dont see it happening. Typically guys who get way better are guys who are very athletic but havnt fully developed there skills. Luka is the opposite of this. Hes already crazy skilled and not all that athletic. Because he so skilled i dont see a whole lot of room for improvement there and its not like hes gonna get more athletic so i just cant see it happening.https://sports.cbsimg.net/images/visual/whatshot/USATSI_8638728.jpg

https://media.giphy.com/media/5t5PiBBP1UkiuCameX/giphy.gif

[Bronbron23]

When Kristaps rounds into shape the Mavs win at least 3-5 titles with Luka.. Luka is coming into a league where most of the great players are aging and are injured. KD would have taken the league over but he tore his achilees .

So Luka is next up cuz Kawhi is not going to be able to do it for that long. The dude is currently the best but he is just injured too much..
My only argument to this is first im not sure how
Much kristsps will round into shape. Second is i think everyone is underestimating how good greek will be in 2 or 3 years once he reaches his prime. His desire,drive and work ethic reminds me alot of mj and kobe. I think in the next few years hes gonna really work on the rest of his game and he'll become the best player in history. Hes already improved his three. If he gets any kind of post game and mid range its over.

[DMAVS41]

They would go much further if giannis had a great jumper. The bucks sure couldn't use that succesful "close the paint down" defense on Kawhi like they did with Giannis in the playoffs.




Kobe had Waaaay more succes with less than a dirk or whoever your favorite is, not because of great teams, but because he hardly had any weaknesses unlike all the players you mentioned, therefore didn't need as much help.


I'll try to make this simple.

Saying Giannis would be better with a great jumper is akin to saying...Giannis would be better if Giannis was better.

We all agree he would be better. That isn't what is in dispute...

Don't you agree that Kobe would have been way better if he could drill 3's like Curry or defend like Giannis currently can?

Again, this is a non-statement...but, even if Kobe had a better 3 or Giannis had a better jumper...they still need championship level help to win.

Kobe had way less help than Dirk? I can't even put into words how dumb of a statement that is. He also didn't "nearly 3-peat"...he got swept as the favorite in 11 by that guy Dirk. Who didn't have near the championship level help Kobe did throughout his career. But again, that isn't even the point...the point is that Dirk shits on Kobe as a shooter from the mid-range and wing post...the very thing you say is so important. So I'd imagine someone considerably better than Kobe at it would have had countless titles if winning is so dependent on that...right? And Dirk was a better FT shooter and 3 point shooter...so, again, it isn't looking good for you. Maybe Kobe, like pretty much all players winning a bunch of titles...played with a lot of really good players. Just a thought...

KG does everything you are talking about and he barely won any playoff games for a decade. He's an all-time great defender and he had a great mid-range game...was really good in the post and a great passing big man. To argue that he was missing things from his game compared to Kobe or Duncan...and that is why he was losing...rather than just pointing out that obvious fact of him playing with garbage compared to them...again, is the height of either ignorance or stupidity.

[Bronbron23]

I'll try to make this simple.

Saying Giannis would be better with a great jumper is akin to saying...Giannis would be better if Giannis was better.

We all agree he would be better. That isn't what is in dispute...

Don't you agree that Kobe would have been way better if he could drill 3's like Curry or defend like Giannis currently can?

Again, this is a non-statement...but, even if Kobe had a better 3 or Giannis had a better jumper...they still need championship level help to win.

Kobe had way less help than Dirk? I can't even put into words how dumb of a statement that is. He also didn't "nearly 3-peat"...he got swept as the favorite in 11 by that guy Dirk. Who didn't have near the championship level help Kobe did throughout his career. But again, that isn't even the point...the point is that Dirk shits on Kobe as a shooter from the mid-range and wing post...the very thing you say is so important. So I'd imagine someone considerably better than Kobe at it would have had countless titles if winning is so dependent on that...right? And Dirk was a better FT shooter and 3 point shooter...so, again, it isn't looking good for you. Maybe Kobe, like pretty much all players winning a bunch of titles...played with a lot of really good players. Just a thought...

KG does everything you are talking about and he barely won any playoff games for a decade. He's an all-time great defender and he had a great mid-range game...was really good in the post and a great passing big man. To argue that he was missing things from his game compared to Kobe or Duncan...and that is why he was losing...rather than just pointing out that obvious fact of him playing with garbage compared to them...again, is the height of either ignorance or stupidity. yes kg did have all of that criteria for a winner and he didn't win alot but he didn't have a great team. Its not like im saying the criteria i brought up is the only factor. Obviously other things matter also like a good team and coach. Leadership can matter also.

That said if you have 2 great teams matching up and one is lead by a player with elite defense and mid range and rhe other is more of a harden or luka type player im taking the the guy with defence and mid range.

[DMAVS41]

yes kg did have all of that criteria for a winner and he didn't win alot but he didn't have a great team. Its not like im saying the criteria i brought up is the only factor. Obviously other things matter also like a good team and coach. Leadership can matter also.

That said if you have 2 great teams matching up and one is lead by a player with elite defense and mid range and rhe other is more of a harden or luka type player im taking the the guy with defence and mid range.

I still think there is more information I'd need, but I've been saying basically that the entire time.

:confusedshrug:

[knicksman]

I still thinks he wants to win i just think he truly thinks he can do it with his ball dominant style of play. He thinks he can get his stats and chips but its much harder that way. This is why i always thought mj was a better leader because he sacrificed his stats a bit for winning.


yeah of course. everyone wants to win. Its just that the fear of failure gets to him more than mj that hes willing to settle for less. Hes willing to settle for just MVPs rather than not be remembered at all like dominique. With his MVPs, people would still consider him an ATG but not GOAT like jordan.

[knicksman]

I don't think every skill is equal at all.

Individual offense overall is clearly more valuable than individual defense.

I'm just saying that the teams with the best players usually win...and so when you and this mid-range fetish thing start trying to attribute that as the main cause of titles...I just don't have patience for it.

Again, some of the best mid-range shooters ever have like 2 titles in 60 years of play....teammates matter a whole lot more than any single skill in basketball.

And, again, I love the wing post and mid-range shot. I completely agree that it matters for winning...but it isn't overcoming team strength like 99 out of 100 times. So focusing on it as the cause of titles is flawed...doesn't make it not important...it just isn't what you want it to be.

Again, do you really think the Warriors would have beaten the Rockets in 18 if the Rockets had current Giannis?

it takes 2 to tango. A great team without a great superstar is not going to succeed either. And a team lead by these mid range specialist are more likely to win than teams that arent. Thats why most players have kobe being better than lebron because for them, its not the triple doubles that make you better. Its the skills. Thats why kobe/jordan/bird are the greatest winners among the perimeter players. Thats because they are the most skilled/clutch players in history. And to be clutch, that midrange game is a must. Thats why its the most important for us. Its the best predictor for success.

A well built team like the bulls is not going to succeed when you replace it lebron but its still going to succeed with kobe. A kobe /cp3 is more likely to succeed than a lebron/cp3. Lebron needs a kobe while kobe doesnt so if your teams 1st option needs another 1st option then I dont think its worth building around that guy. There are players like dirk who only need roleplayers to win.

[DMAVS41]

it takes 2 to tango. A great team without a great superstar is not going to succeed either. And a team lead by these mid range specialist are more likely to win than teams that arent. Thats why most players have kobe being better than lebron because for them, its not the triple doubles that make you better. Its the skills. Thats why kobe/jordan/bird are the greatest winners among the perimeter players. Thats because they are the most skilled/clutch players in history. And to be clutch, that midrange game is a must. Thats why its the most important for us. Its the best predictor for success.

A well built team like the bulls is not going to succeed when you replace it lebron but its still going to succeed with kobe. A kobe /cp3 is more likely to succeed than a lebron/cp3. Lebron needs a kobe while kobe doesnt so if your teams 1st option needs another 1st option then I dont think its worth building around that guy. There are players like dirk who only need roleplayers to win.

I definitely agree about needing a superstar.

The examples you gave about Kobe/CP3 and Lebron/CP3 is just stylistic stuff. Not really a point. Like saying you wouldn't want Kobe/Iverson on the same team. Just obvious and utterly meaningless as each player will have optimal teams in terms of supporting casts.

Klay Thompson and Lebron make a lot more sense than Kobe/Klay...so I just don't see the point of this stuff.

Lebron needs a Kobe? You think so little of Kobe that 13 Wade is a fair comparison? Wade couldn't even get 20 a night on anything approaching acceptable efficiency the entire playoffs. If you are counting 13 Wade as "a Kobe"...then like...we just aren't speaking the same language.

[knicksman]

I definitely agree about needing a superstar.

The examples you gave about Kobe/CP3 and Lebron/CP3 is just stylistic stuff. Not really a point. Like saying you wouldn't want Kobe/Iverson on the same team. Just obvious and utterly meaningless as each player will have optimal teams in terms of supporting casts.

Klay Thompson and Lebron make a lot more sense than Kobe/Klay...so I just don't see the point of this stuff.

Lebron needs a Kobe? You think so little of Kobe that 13 Wade is a fair comparison? Wade couldn't even get 20 a night on anything approaching acceptable efficiency the entire playoffs. If you are counting 13 Wade as "a Kobe"...then like...we just aren't speaking the same language.

That US team is the best proof that lebron needs kobe. In 2016 it was kyrie who carried them when it matters. As Ive said, theres a correlation with clutch and winning. Thats why the 3 greatest winners bird/kobe/jordan are clutch. And you cant be clutch if you dont have that midrange game.

And if you think that not every skill is equal then why you guys judge players based on stats. Were not giving up kobes skillset for lebrons 3apg or 3rpg. We want our scorer to be playing off ball anyways so that 3apg means nothing just like his rpg. Its like hiring a cook. I dont care how good of a dishwasher you are or a floor mopper. If youre an average at best cook, then im choosing the excellent cook despite him not knowing how to wash dishes. Its the same in basketball. We dont care about apg, rpg. If youre not one of the best scorer, were not building around you. Simple as that. And the results speaks for itself. Lebron needed superteams. Thats too much for a GM

[DMAVS41]

That US team is the best proof that lebron needs kobe. In 2016 it was kyrie who carried them when it matters. As Ive said, theres a correlation with clutch and winning. Thats why the 3 greatest winners bird/kobe/jordan are clutch. And you cant be clutch if you dont have that midrange game.

And if you think that not every skill is equal then why you guys judge players based on stats. Were not giving up kobes skillset for lebrons 3apg or 3rpg. We want our scorer to be playing off ball anyways so that 3apg means nothing just like his rpg. Its like hiring a cook. I dont care how good of a dishwasher you are or a floor mopper. If youre an average at best cook, then im choosing the excellent cook despite him not knowing how to wash dishes. Its the same in basketball. We dont care about apg, rpg. If youre not one of the best scorer, were not building around you. Simple as that. And the results speaks for itself. Lebron needed superteams. Thats too much for a GM

I think you should go back and watch some Wade games from the 13 playoffs.

But, again, Shaq/Player X given the competition the Lakers faced...is just as impactful as the kind of help you are criticizing Lebron for.

Honestly, at times just better...there is no team Lebron has played on in which they could win a chip with him playing like Kobe did in the 00 Finals.

Who was "Kobe" on the 13 Heat in the playoffs?

[StrongLurk]

Luka won't win multiple chips because he is retiring after this year.