Shaq/Kobe and their on/off #s (BEWARE Kobe stains)*

[SpaceJam2]

Kobe shaq on/off 2000-01 RS & PO combined (https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2000-01&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=406,977)

Kobe shaq on/off 2001-02 RS & PO combined (https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2001-02&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=977,406)

Kobe shaq on/off 2002-03 RS & PO combined (https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2002-03&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=406,977)

Kobe shaq on/off 2003-04 RS & PO combined (https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2003-04&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=406,977)

:lebronamazed:

Do not look at these links if you're a Kobe Stan.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

One sneak preview

2004 ORtg

Shaq on, Kobe off: 105
Kobe on, Shaq off: 98

Why :(

[ImKobe]

2001 Playoffs

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=406,977

15.32 NetRtg with both on the court
19.48 NetRtg with Shaq on the bench
-0.01 NetRtg with Kobe on the bench


yikes

[SpaceJam2]

Playoffs

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=406,977

19.48 NetRtg with Shaq on the bench
-0.01 NetRtg with Kobe on the bench

yikes

False

2004 ORtg

Shaq on, Kobe off: 105
Kobe on, Shaq off: 98

Why :(

[ImKobe]

False

2004 ORtg

Shaq on, Kobe off: 105
Kobe on, Shaq off: 98

Why :(

It's not false, look at the 2001 Playoffs on/off

:roll: :roll:

[MaxPlayer]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEjHKvjqt5pssL99C/source.gif

[ImKobe]

False

2004 ORtg

Shaq on, Kobe off: 105
Kobe on, Shaq off: 98

Why :(

2001 Playoffs ORtg

Shaq on, Kobe off: 99
Kobe on, Shaq off: 122

Kobe was by far their best player on the 15 - 1 title team :roll:

[SpaceJam2]

It's not false, look at the 2001 Playoffs on/off

:roll: :roll:

Umm...

2001 ORtg

Shaq on, Kobe off: 110
Kobe on, Shaq off: 103

You sure you got this number stuff figured out? :lol

Stay in school

:dancin

[AussieSteve]

2001 Playoffs

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=406,977

15.32 NetRtg with both on the court
19.48 NetRtg with Shaq on the bench
-0.01 NetRtg with Kobe on the bench


yikes

Sample size? 4 full seasons including playoffs vs 1 cherry picked post season in which shaq played a total of 55 mins without Kobe.

[SpaceJam2]

Sample size? 4 full seasons including playoffs vs 1 cherry picked post season in which shaq played a total of 55 mins without Kobe.


Wrekt :lol

[SpaceJam2]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEjHKvjqt5pssL99C/source.gif


Kobe fans hurtin bad :lol

[iamgine]

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=203076,2544

[ImKobe]

Since OP brought this up, let's look at Kobe vs. Gasol in the Playoffs

2009 & 2010 Playoffs
https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2009-10,2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=977,2200

Kobe on, Pau off: 7.35 NetRtg
Pau on, Kobe off: 1.49 NetRtg

[ImKobe]

2009 & 2010 Regular Seasons

Kobe on, Pau off: 8.41 NetRtg
Pau on, Kobe off: -0.30 NetRtg

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2008-09,2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=977,2200

[AussieSteve]

Since OP brought this up, let's look at Kobe vs. Gasol in the Playoffs

2009 & 2010 Playoffs
https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2009-10,2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=977,2200

Kobe on, Pau off: 7.35 NetRtg
Pau on, Kobe off: 1.49 NetRtg

So the Lakers were winning against playoff team even without Kobe.

Stacked!!

[ImKobe]

y'all not gonna like this

2009 Playoffs

Lebron on, Mo Williams off: 6.82 NetRtg
Mo Williams on, Lebron off: 11.38 NetRtg

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612739&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=2544,2590

[qrich]

y'all not gonna like this

2009 Playoffs

Lebron on, Mo Williams off: 6.82 NetRtg
Mo Williams on, Lebron off: 11.38 NetRtg

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612739&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=2544,2590


:eek:

Mo Gotti carried LeBum

[AussieSteve]

y'all not gonna like this

2009 Playoffs

Lebron on, Mo Williams off: 6.82 NetRtg
Mo Williams on, Lebron off: 11.38 NetRtg

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612739&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=2544,2590

Dude... OP shows 4 full seasons, including playoffs, over which the Lakers were a net negative without Kobe on and Shaq off EVERY SINGLE YEAR!!

Quit trawling for isolated examples that appear to show something that we all know isn't true.

OP is irrefutable, based on sample size.

[ImKobe]

Dude... OP shows 4 full seasons, including playoffs, over which the Lakers were a net negative without Kobe on and Shaq off EVERY SINGLE YEAR!!

Quit trawling for isolated examples that appear to show something that we all know isn't true.

OP is irrefutable, based on sample size.

So a title run against the best teams in the league is not a legitimate sample size?

[RRR3]

So a title run against the best teams in the league is not a legitimate sample size?
What’s more likely: Kobe magically became better than Shaq for a very brief moment in time or that context and simple randomness contributed to the 01 numbers?

[ImKobe]

[QUOTE=RRR3]What

[RRR3]

"very brief moment in time", only when he led a 15 - 1 Playoff team to the championship at age 22.
Who led them in the finals? You know, the one series in which they lost a game and were actually trailing in.

[nayte]

y'all not gonna like this

2009 Playoffs

Lebron on, Mo Williams off: 6.82 NetRtg
Mo Williams on, Lebron off: 11.38 NetRtg

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612739&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=2544,2590

:roll:

[stalkerforlife]

ImKobe ain't no joke.

Damn.

Slayer.

[warriorfan]

y'all not gonna like this

2009 Playoffs

Lebron on, Mo Williams off: 6.82 NetRtg
Mo Williams on, Lebron off: 11.38 NetRtg

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612739&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=2544,2590

Rest in piss. An eternal ether. Bookmark worthy.

[StrongLurk]

OP got destroyed...big time.

[SpaceJam2]

y'all not gonna like this

2009 Playoffs

Lebron on, Mo Williams off: 6.82 NetRtg
Mo Williams on, Lebron off: 11.38 NetRtg

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612739&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=2544,2590

74 minutes :lol

Nice try

Next

[SpaceJam2]

OP got destroyed...big time.

Never

OP posts sample size of 800+ minutes (2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004 stats)

ImKobe posts 74 minute sample size :lol

Next

[Akeem34TheDream]

Never

OP posts sample size of 800+ minutes (2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004 stats)

ImKobe posts 74 minute sample size :lol

Next
3rd person? Hmmm

[warriorfan]

3rd person? Hmmm

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[stalkerforlife]

3rd person? Hmmm

Got em.

[LAmbruh]

Lakers with Shaq/No Kobe: 36-8


Lakers with Kobe/No Shaq: 53-45




https://media.giphy.com/media/WTs1U35bXe4X6/giphy.gif

[SpaceJam2]

3rd person? Hmmm


Next

[SpaceJam2]

Lakers with Shaq/No Kobe: 36-8


Lakers with Kobe/No Shaq: 53-45




https://media.giphy.com/media/WTs1U35bXe4X6/giphy.gif

Annnd

JUST

LIKE

THAT

:dancin

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

y'all not gonna like this

2009 Playoffs

Lebron on, Mo Williams off: 6.82 NetRtg
Mo Williams on, Lebron off: 11.38 NetRtg

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612739&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=2544,2590

LMFAOOOO:roll: :roll: :roll:

shut it downnnnnnn

[SpaceJam2]

LMFAOOOO:roll: :roll: :roll:

shut it downnnnnnn

Uses a 74 minute sample to combat 4x 800 minute samples :lol

Finish college son :lol

Next

[AussieSteve]

LMFAOOOO:roll: :roll: :roll:

shut it downnnnnnn

Shut it down?... because of 74 (probably largely junk time) minutes in a single post season, vs 4 complete seasons in which the Lakers were a net negative with Kobe on the floor but no Shaq every single season?

That is the definition of seeing what you choose to see instead of the obvious facts.

On/off is obviously a flawed stat that doesn't tell the whole story and so you can't read too much into it. BUT over a big enough sample size I think it becomes a pretty reliable indicator of players' relative impact. And Kobe's impact consistently doesn't stack up to other ATGs.

You can extend OP to 2004-05 (https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2004-05&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=977), 2006-07 (https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2006-07&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=977), 2010-11 (https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2010-11&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=2200,977), 2011-12 (https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2011-12&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=977,2200), 2012-13 (https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2012-13&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=977,2730), 2013-14 (https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2013-14&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=977), 2014-15 (https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=977), 2015-16 (https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=977)... lakers were a net negative across the RS + PO every single one of these seasons with Kobe on the floor but no other peak HoFer (except 07 when they were a +0).

He had only four seasons in his whole career when the Lakers were better than their opponents on average while Kobe was the lone superstar on the floor for them.

Sure he was a clear net positive during 08-10, but if he is remotely close to top 10 all time, that should be a given.

And sure you might find single post seasons or even whole seasons where LeBron or Wade or TD or Shaq or KD or someone else was a net negative, maybe due to rotations that year or whatever. But consistently across most of their career? Not a chance.

I dare you to do so this kind of analysis for any other top 25 player who has played since on/off stats are available.

Kobe stock is plummeting.

[Uncle Drew]

Shaquille O’Neal dropped 38 points per game whilst shooting sub 40% from the line. That man was insane.

[Celtics 1825]

[QUOTE=Uncle Drew]Shaquille O

[Uncle Drew]

He'd be the GOAT hands down if he had a better work ethic
No doubt. His peak is the greatest in the history of the league. 38/17 with 3 blocks per game with 61 FG% and 39 FT%. Brutal. Imagine if he was just a 60% FT shooter. He

[MaxFly]

One of the things people don't take into account when posting these sorts of numbers is that the Championship Lakers were quite imbalanced. Once Shaq was out or on the bench, players like John Salley, Travis Knight, Slava Medvedenko and Mark Madsen were holding down the middle. It's a wonder they didn't collapse every time Shaq went out, especially on defense... and it's a testament to the level of confidence the organization had in Bryant that they never really bothered to get a solid backup for Shaq.

[BigTicket]

Kobe Bryant never had great on/off numbers (or other advanced stats), is this really news to people ?

[warriorfan]

Maybe LeBron wouldn

[warriorfan]

Steph Curry has 3 seasons of on/off better than LeBron

[SpaceJam2]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Maybe LeBron wouldn

[logix]

kobe very very thiccccc he have 5 rings as best player or 2nd best player on team

[AussieSteve]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Steph Curry has 3 seasons of on/off better than LeBron

[SpaceJam2]

That's not surprising. Steph had GOAT level impact during his MVP seasons.

This thread is not about LeBron or Steph though. Both these guys are historically great and it shows in the numbers. Kobe on the other hand...

https://media.giphy.com/media/wPqXqNAGMUSje/giphy.gif

[superduper]

https://media.giphy.com/media/wPqXqNAGMUSje/giphy.gif

What a loveable guy Kobe was man, there's a reason 90% of the HOFs aren't fooled by fake empty stats

[AussieSteve]

What a loveable guy Kobe was man, there's a reason 90% of the HOFs aren't fooled by fake empty stats

But it's not just on/off stats. If you hold to Kobe being near the top of the GOAT list, you have to ignore
- raw stats
- efficiency stats
- impact stats
- defensive stats
- clutch stats
- playoff and finals stats

In fact, if you hold to Kobe being near the top of the GOAT list, you void the right to mount an argument for or against any player in history that references any numbers.

[SouBeachTalents]

But it's not just on/off stats. If you hold to Kobe being near the top of the GOAT list, you have to ignore
- raw stats
- efficiency stats
- impact stats
- defensive stats
- clutch stats
- playoff and finals stats

In fact, if you hold to Kobe being near the top of the GOAT list, you void the right to mount an argument for or against any player in history that references any numbers.
Fck the numbers, can't measure killer instinct

[Uncle Drew]

Fck the numbers, can't measure killer instinct
In Jordan's case I can.

[ZenMaster7210]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Maybe LeBron wouldn

[SpaceJam2]

In Jordan's case I can.

:eek:

DAD killer instinct

[warriorfan]

:eek:

DAD killer instinct

Tbh LBJ could have used some of that when Delonte West and Da Real Lambo were tag teaming his mom

[AussieSteve]

Fck the numbers, can't measure killer instinct

Fck every single quantifiable measure we have to assess the level at which player is playing?

I assume you also want to Fck media voted awards like MVPs and FMVPs, seeing as though Kobe didn't win many of those.

How then can we speak objectively when comparing players?

For pretty much ever single player the total pool of available data aggregated together leads to a standing in history that is in line with general consensus.

- MJ is the GOAT. We would know this even without data, but the data confirms.
- LBJ is right behind him. Again, this is consensus and the data confirms
- Shaq's peak was GOAT level. Watch some 2000 tape and no one would disagree. Once again, the data confirms it.
- Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade are all somewhere in the 18-25 range all time. Guess what, the data aligns in all these cases (depending on your preferred metrics).

Except Kobe. The data says he's a couple rungs below the GOAT contenders. So why do we make an exception in his case only and 'Fck the numbers'?

[Phoenix]

Fck every single quantifiable measure we have to assess the level at which player is playing?

I assume you also want to Fck media voted awards like MVPs and FMVPs, seeing as though Kobe didn't win many of those.

How then can we speak objectively when comparing players?

For pretty much ever single player the total pool of available data aggregated together leads to a standing in history that is in line with general consensus.

- MJ is the GOAT. We would know this even without data, but the data confirms.
- LBJ is right behind him. Again, this is consensus and the data confirms
- Shaq's peak was GOAT level. Watch some 2000 tape and no one would disagree. Once again, the data confirms it.
- Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade are all somewhere in the 18-25 range all time. Guess what, the data aligns in all these cases (depending on your preferred metrics).

Except Kobe. The data says he's a couple rungs below the GOAT contenders. So why do we make an exception in his case only and 'Fck the numbers'?

I'm reasonably certain SBT was being sarcastic with the killer instinct quote.

[Boogey]

But it's not just on/off stats. If you hold to Kobe being near the top of the GOAT list, you have to ignore
- raw stats
- efficiency stats
- impact stats
- defensive stats
- clutch stats
- playoff and finals stats

In fact, if you hold to Kobe being near the top of the GOAT list, you void the right to mount an argument for or against any player in history that references any numbers.stats tell half the story. How they did it tells the rest. You knew kobe was gonna get the ball, but you still couldn