RPM over the 2020 season is out. Guess who's leading by a mile and then some?

[Uncle Drew]

https://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads9/5df15ccc933db/5df15ccc8c1dd-Screenshot_2019-12-11_at_22.16.46.png

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

[Uncle Drew]

The best player on the Lakers ranks 61st and is only slightly above being a positive on DRPM. How come?

[MaxPlayer]

Bigger difference between #1 & #2, than #2 & #14

:eek:

[FromDowntown]

I can chime to say I did not expect him to be at the number one heap of the dog pack. His RPM wins also has him at the number 1 spot. I looked for a definition and ESPN shows this

RPM: Player's estimated on-court impact on team performance, measured in net point differential per 100 offensive and defensive possessions. RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factor

I dont know what to say, if Curry wasnt hurt he would probably he number one but he isnt.

Top 3 RPM data by the years

2020
LeBron
Harden
Giannis
*Curry injured

2019
George
Harden
Curry
*Lebron 9th

2018
Paul
Harden
Curry
*LeBron 13th

2017
LeBron
Paul
Curry

2016
LeBron
Draymond
Paul
*Curry 4th

2015
Curry
LeBron
Harden
*Draymond 8th

2014
LeBron
Paul
Igoudala
*Curry 6th

Basically shows Curry, LeBron, and Harden as most impact for a team to win

[3ball]

I can chime to say I did not expect him to be at the number one heap of the dog pack. His RPM wins also has him at the number 1 spot. I looked for a definition and ESPN shows this

RPM: Player's estimated on-court impact on team performance, measured in net point differential per 100 offensive and defensive possessions. RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factor

I dont know what to say, if Curry wasnt hurt he would probably he number one but he isnt.

Top 3 RPM data by the years

2020
LeBron
Harden
Giannis
*Curry injured

2019
George
Harden
Curry
*Lebron 9th

2018
Paul
Harden
Curry
*LeBron 13th

2017
LeBron
Paul
Curry

2016
James
Draymond
Paul
*Curry 4th

2015
Curry
*LeBron
Harden

2014
LeBron
Paul
Igoudala
*Curry 6th

Basically shows Curry, LeBron, and Harden as most impact for a team to win
Not true - Curry's impact beats Lebron because Curry's style allows a higher team ceiling.

1-ball-dominator teams show tremendous impact when that player is removed and the team falls off (i.e. the suns without nash in 13' or the hornets without cp3 in 12'), but that style has a much lower team ceiling, and therefore is overstated in stats like RPM, which can't quantify brand/team ceiling/Finals record

So bran's stats are overstated due to lower brand/team ceiling, which also means he is a lot worse than MJ than we thought, since MJ had the highest ceilings and the biggest carry-jobs (1985, 1986, 1989-1991), aka the best of everything

[FromDowntown]

Not true - Curry's impact beats Lebron because Curry's style allows a higher team ceiling.

1-ball-dominator teams show tremendous impact when that player is removed and the team falls off (i.e. the suns without nash in 13' or the hornets without cp3 in 12'), but that style has a much lower team ceiling, and therefore is overstated in stats like RPM, which can't quantify brand/team ceiling/Finals record

So bran's stats are overstated due to lower brand/team ceiling, which also means he is a lot worse than MJ than we thought, since MJ had the highest ceilings and the biggest carry-jobs (1985, 1986, 1989-1991), aka the best of everything

I agree Curry's style can lead to a better team ceiling, if you have all stars already. If you have scrubby players then LeBron's style probably works better carrying the extra work load. It's like working in a group on a work project and the one guy on the team is really good at doing a lot of stuff so lets see which fits his style

Group A: lots of other good workers, Curry style works better
Group B: lots of rejects and new workers, LeBron style works better

He has the style to carry a strong workload so for weaker teams he is better style but flip it and they both dont work as good. Im saying give Lebron Draymond and Klay and Harrison Barnes and they dont get 73 wins, but also give Curry the 2007 or even 2018 Cavs squad and they might miss the playoffs and forget the Finals.

[FromDowntown]

Not true - Curry's impact beats Lebron because Curry's style allows a higher team ceiling.

1-ball-dominator teams show tremendous impact when that player is removed and the team falls off (i.e. the suns without nash in 13' or the hornets without cp3 in 12'), but that style has a much lower team ceiling, and therefore is overstated in stats like RPM, which can't quantify brand/team ceiling/Finals record

So bran's stats are overstated due to lower brand/team ceiling, which also means he is a lot worse than MJ than we thought, since MJ had the highest ceilings and the biggest carry-jobs (1985, 1986, 1989-1991), aka the best of everything

And please keep MJ out of this thread we are talking about current impact and current players. I know you want to compare MJ and LBJ but leave it to 2020 for this thread

[tontoz]

For the record RPM is a predictive stat. It isn't measuring just what has happened this season. It is also using what happened in previous seasons to predict what will happen going forward.

[JohnMax]

What you said about Curry can also be said about Lebron.

Heat without Lebron still had two allstars and barely made playoffs.
Cavs without Lebron still had one allstar and they were a lottery team.
Kyrie is back to pre-Lebron level. See Celtics and Nets winning more games without him.
We can infer the same about Davis. He'll be back to missing / barely making playoffs without Lebron.

[elementally morale]

Will Barton at no.5 and Luka Doncic at no.15?

What does this stat show again?

[Trollsmasher]

confirms the eye test and other numbers

LeBron carrying both offense and defense in Y17:bowdown:

[elementally morale]

confirms the eye test and other numbers

LeBron carrying both offense and defense in Y17:bowdown:

Let's forget LeBron for a moment. I don't know how this state is being created. I really don't. So... you tell me, please: Will Barton, Denzel Valentine, Donte DiVincenzo and Jalen Brunson are all in the top 20. What do you think a stat has to measure to have these guys that high? I honestly have no idea.

[Trollsmasher]

Let's forget LeBron for a moment. I don't know how this state is being created. I really don't. So... you tell me, please: Will Barton, Denzel Valentine, Donte DiVincenzo and Jalen Brunson are all in the top 20. What do you think a stat has to measure to have these guys that high? I honestly have no idea.
I'm not a statistician so I will simply tell you to google some explandums on RPM (there are plenty) whic willh tell you what role do player roles, player backups, general statistical noise etc. play

No, Will Barton isn't the 5th best player in the league. He's however very good at whatever fvck is his role on the court.

[RealSkipBayless]

A scrub like Tatum is top 5?

[elementally morale]

Let's forget LeBron for a moment. I don't know how this state is being created. I really don't. So... you tell me, please: Will Barton, Denzel Valentine, Donte DiVincenzo and Jalen Brunson are all in the top 20. What do you think a stat has to measure to have these guys that high? I I'm not a statistician so I will simply tell you to google some explandums on RPM (there is plenty) which tell you what role do player roles, player backups, general statistical noise etc. play


No, Will Barton isn't the 5th best player in the league. He's however very good at whatever fvck is his role on the court.


That's what I'm asking. What does this thing measure to come up with Barton at 5 and Doncic at 15.

[ImKobe]

Harden barely had a positive DRPM last season and now he has a 1.95, which is basically on par with Giannis despite Bucks being #1 and Rockets #15 on that end? How is Alex Caruso 13th in the league in DRPM? This makes no sense.

[elementally morale]

I'm not a statistician so I will simply tell you to google some explandums on RPM (there are plenty) whic willh tell you what role do player roles, player backups, general statistical noise etc. play

I'm not bad at stats. Use them for my work all the time. So I know their limitations... and basketball cannot really be covered by any single stat. A group of stats is better... still not good enough... but it is besides the point.

What you are telling me now is that you yourself are not sure what this stat measures but you think it is good. I don't know its value. But how would you like a stat that has Doncic at 1, Harden at 2, Gannis at 3, and LeBron at 15? Wouldn't you want to know what it is about?

[Trollsmasher]

I'm not bad at stats. Use them for my work all the time. So I know their limitations... and basketball cannot really be covered by any single stat. A group of stats is better... still not good enough... but it is besides the point.

What you are telling me now is that you yourself are not sure what this stat measures but you think it is good. I don't know its value. But how would you like a stat that has Doncic at 1, Harden at 2, Gannis at 3, and LeBron at 15? Wouldn't you want to know what it is about?
I have some understanding what it is about. That doesn't mean that I am a person to explain it.

I agree with you that ultimately none of these stats will ever be able to cover the game because the game will always have some immeasurable irrationality in it. That doesn't mean that some of these models don't do a solid job of it. You just have to know how to read them.

There's a lot of noise there this early in the season. Small sample sizes for lineups, etc. Is LeBron really that much more important for Lakers' defense than AD? Probably not. But AD is usually backed up by Dwight while LeBron is backed up by either Kuzma or some smaller guard which makes him look much better in comparison. It's like when Nick Collison was 6th in ORPM like 6 years ago simply because he was backing up Perk. You just need to have some idea of how to read this shit.

[elementally morale]

I have some understanding what it is about. That doesn't mean that I am a person to explain it.

I agree with you that ultimately none of these stats will ever be able to cover the game because the game will always have some immeasurable irrationality in it. That doesn't mean that some of these models don't do a solid job of it. You just have to know how to read them.


It happened a while ago, I was relatively new to ISH. It was on the other board... 2004ish. I'm not sure PER existed then... it may have... but most advanced stats we have today didn't exist.

So back in 2004 I created a stat myself. It's somewhere here on my computer in an excel sheet. It was called the 'offensive efficiency formula'. I liked it a lot. It had Stockton and Bird at the top, followed by Shaq, MJ and Magic. (Relax it was before LeBron's time.) So I introduced it. GOBB and kblaze asked a few questions and asked me to insert a few players' numbers into the formula. Yeah... it was useless.

I have the same feeling with this one. It's useless. If you have no name players in your top 20... 5-6 of them... it doesn't measure greatness very well.

[tontoz]

I'm not bad at stats. Use them for my work all the time. So I know their limitations... and basketball cannot really be covered by any single stat. A group of stats is better... still not good enough... but it is besides the point.

What you are telling me now is that you yourself are not sure what this stat measures but you think it is good. I don't know its value. But how would you like a stat that has Doncic at 1, Harden at 2, Gannis at 3, and LeBron at 15? Wouldn't you want to know what it is about?


Plus minus by its nature is a noisy stat. In small sample sizes it can give some bizarre results. In large sample sizes it can be a good stat though.

I looked into RPM a few years ago and frankly I am not sure how they come up with the numbers. The thing that stuck with me is that it isn't just measuring what has happened so far this season like most stats. It is using past performance to predict future results.

As a simplified example let's create player A and player B, rated on a scale of 10. Let's say last year player A was a 5 and player B was 7. Let's also assume both players are playing like an 8 so far this season. Player B will have a higher RPM than player A because RPM is taking past performance into account.

I don't know how much current RPM is taking this year's numbers into account vs past seasons but generally I don't pay much at to it early in the season.

[Doranku]

The best player on the Lakers ranks 61st and is only slightly above being a positive on DRPM. How come?

Thanks for proving how worthless this stat is. :oldlol: AD is the clearcut favorite for DPOY, yet somehow he only has a slightly positive DRPM?

Just realized Tatum, Will Barton, and Paul Millsap are top 10 in RPM lmao

[elementally morale]

Plus minus by its nature is a noisy stat. In small sample sizes it can give some bizarre results. In large sample sizes it can be a good stat though.

I looked into RPM a few years ago and frankly I am not sure how they come up with the numbers. The thing that stuck with me is that it isn't just measuring what has happened so far this season like most stats. It is using past performance to predict future results.

As a simplified example let's create player A and player B, rated on a scale of 10. Let's say last year player A was a 5 and player B was 7. Let's also assume both players are playing like an 8 so far this season. Player B will have a higher RPM than player A because RPM is taking past performance into account.

I don't know how much current RPM is taking this year's numbers into account vs past seasons but generally I don't pay much at to it early in the season.


It gives a pretty good explanation as to why LeBron is running away with this stat this year. He improved a lot compared to last year. He does play a lot better. So I'm okay with him being number 1 if we say it is in comparison with last years performance. He improved ---> good stat. OK. But Doncic at 15 and Tatum at 4? Based on... what?

[Manny98]

LeBron has the best defensive RPM on the Lakers as well

Explains this image

https://i.postimg.cc/cCtb3Xcq/Screenshot-20191209-152444.jpg

LeBron is simply in a tier of his own

[dazzer87]

Useless stat............typical stan......:roll:

[LostCause]

RPM is pretty useless right now

You'll have to wait until closer to the end of the season before it actually reflects anything with accuracy. Lets compare it today to what it looks like around late-February and March

You'd think the fact Anthony Davis is lower than Enes Kanter and Julius Randle defensively would alert some folks that the metric isn't saying shit at the moment but I guess not lol. Agendas gonna agenda

[Uncle Drew]

Damage control.

[elementally morale]

Damage control.


Why do you think Tatum is no.4, Barton is no.5 and Doncic is no.15? How would you explain this result?

[Manny98]

Why do you think Tatum is no.4, Barton is no.5 and Doncic is no.15? How would you explain this result?
Barton has been sensational defensively and is the biggest reason why Denver have the best defense in the league

[NBAGOAT]

Plus minus by its nature is a noisy stat. In small sample sizes it can give some bizarre results. In large sample sizes it can be a good stat though.

I looked into RPM a few years ago and frankly I am not sure how they come up with the numbers. The thing that stuck with me is that it isn't just measuring what has happened so far this season like most stats. It is using past performance to predict future results.

As a simplified example let's create player A and player B, rated on a scale of 10. Let's say last year player A was a 5 and player B was 7. Let's also assume both players are playing like an 8 so far this season. Player B will have a higher RPM than player A because RPM is taking past performance into account.

I don't know how much current RPM is taking this year's numbers into account vs past seasons but generally I don't pay much at to it early in the season.

there's a box score prior too which makes rapm better. rpm 20 games in is admittedly meaningless but this result is surprising.

as for barton and millsap, barton's defensive metrics are just weird. Millsap's not nearly as surprising, he's easily the anchor of one of the best defenses in the league

[NBAGOAT]

Barton has been sensational defensively and is the biggest reason why Denver have the best defense in the league

yea no one believes barton is one of the biggest reasons for that :lol

[elementally morale]

Barton has been sensational defensively and is the biggest reason why Denver have the best defense in the league

Okay. So he is 56 places ahead of Anthony Davis. Strange... but okay.

However, Tatum is 4 and Doncic is 15. Why?

[LoneyROY7]

The RPM god stays strong at #2. :applause:

[Manny98]

Okay. So he is 56 places ahead of Anthony Davis. Strange... but okay.

However, Tatum is 4 and Doncic is 15. Why?
Because they have been elite defensively to start the season

[elementally morale]

Also.. why are we simply adding together offense + defense? With rebounding I get that. Oreb+Dreb = TReb. But with a stat that measures performance? You would really have to think defense is exactly 50% of the game. For every player in every game. roles notwithstanding. Which is is not. It depends on who you play and what your role is.

[LostCause]

Why do you think Tatum is no.4, Barton is no.5 and Doncic is no.15? How would you explain this result?

There's no point really engaging anyone who's touting or bashing RPM this early

If you know anything about the metric, you know exactly why its useless to cite it this early. Personally I love RPM and PIPM and have cited them as reliable on numerous occasions in the past, however that's near the end of the season or after it when the picture is much clearer and more accurate

Folks championing or bashing it this early are just showing us they don't even know what it is or understand plus/minus in general.

[NBAGOAT]

There's no point really engaging anyone who's touting or bashing RPM this early

If you know anything about the metric, you know exactly why its useless to cite it this early. Personally I love RPM and PIPM and have cited them as reliable on numerous occasions in the past, however that's near the end of the season or after it when the picture is much clearer and more accurate

Folks championing or bashing it this early are just showing us they don't even know what it is or understand plus/minus in general.

ps these are pipm numbers which seem to follow popular thought more https://www.bball-index.com/current-pipm/. As you said neither are too meaningful til you're like past the all star break. pipm also is luck adjusted which I'm not to sure if I'm a fan of.

[elementally morale]

There's no point really engaging anyone who's touting or bashing RPM this early

If you know anything about the metric, you know exactly why its useless to cite it this early. Personally I love RPM and PIPM and have cited them as reliable on numerous occasions in the past, however that's near the end of the season or after it when the picture is much clearer and more accurate

Folks championing or bashing it this early are just showing us they don't even know what it is or understand plus/minus in general.


Why are we simply adding offense to defense? It assumes that each and every player has the same role on both offense and defense. Unrealistic. For Harden offense is a lot more important. For Gobert... you get the idea.

Sounds like nonsense to me, regardless of number of games.

[LostCause]

Because they have been elite defensively to start the season
:roll: You're actually doing this

Okay. So Manny, would you say Tatum, Barton, Kanter, Randle and Harden are all more impactful defensively than AD?

How about Jamal Murray, DJ Augustin, Tristan Thompson and Tatum being more impactful defensively than Giannis?

RPM today indicates these things do be true. Do you agree or disagree with these results?

[NBAGOAT]

Also.. why are we simply adding together offense + defense? With rebounding I get that. Oreb+Dreb = TReb. But with a stat that measures performance? You would really have to think defense is exactly 50% of the game. For every player in every game. roles notwithstanding. Which is is not. It depends on who you play and what your role is.

it's all based on plus/minus so in that respect yes offense=defense. However the reason defense isnt 50% of the game for an individual player is the top defenders dont impact the game as much as the top offensive players. Last year the top 5 were in the 3.7-4.3 range defensively. On offense the 4.4-7.4 range.

[Manny98]

:roll: You're actually doing this

Okay. So Manny, would you say Tatum, Barton, Kanter, Randle and Harden are all more impactful defensively than AD?

How about Jamal Murray, DJ Augustin, Tristan Thompson and Tatum being more impactful defensively than Giannis?

RPM today indicates these things do be true. Do you agree or disagree with these results?
Barton yes, but I didn't say RPM is the be all end all stat but players that lead the league in DRPM tend to always win DPOY as well so it is a somewhat accurate measure of a players defensive performance

[LostCause]

ps these are pipm numbers which seem to follow popular thought more https://www.bball-index.com/current-pipm/. As you said neither are too meaningful til you're like past the all star break. pipm also is luck adjusted which I'm not to sure if I'm a fan of.

Indeed, that's actually my first time seeing PIPM for this season. I'll keep an eye on it over time as well as RPM to see where things settle once the data is less noisy

There's also that new RAPTOR stat which I have yet to look into but I've heard different things about

[NBAGOAT]

Indeed, that's actually my first time seeing PIPM for this season. I'll keep an eye on it over time as well as RPM to see where things settle once the data is less noisy

There's also that new RAPTOR stat which I have yet to look into but I've heard different things about

heard some flaws about RAPTOR defensively on reddit so I likely wont look into it too much til I heard better things. It's new so the creators have time to play around with it

[elementally morale]

It's new so the creators have time to play around with it


And that's exactly the problem with any 'advanced stat'. You have your raw numbers... and then you add a few arbitrary numbers to multiply and divide with. Then you add and subtract... rather arbitrarily. And your validation? You take a look at the results... and if you don't agree... you play with the numbers... until yo do agree. Then you pretend it to be factual and scientific. It's not. It's make believe.

[NBAGOAT]

And that's exactly the problem with any 'advanced stat'. You have your raw numbers... and then you add a few arbitrary numbers to multiply and divide with. Then you add and subtract... rather arbitrarily. And your validation? You take a look at the results... and if you don't agree... you play with the numbers... until yo do agree. Then you pretend it to be factual and scientific. It's not. It's make believe.

i'm not sure it's based on arbitrary values like PER was. It could be as simple as using a better regression model.

[LostCause]

Barton yes, but I didn't say RPM is the be all end all stat but players that lead the league in DRPM tend to always win DPOY as well so it is a somewhat accurate measure of a players defensive performance

Well that would be in reference to DRPM toward the end of the season

The RPM today is meaningless. I assure you the Top 10 that you see today will be very different in 2-3 months, by nature of plus/minus data

Currently there's too much noise that needs to be separated. That only happens as more games/data comes in and the picture gets clearer

Giannis is literally leading the league in D-PIPM, DRating, Defensive WS and is 3rd in DBPM.

Will Barton is 26th in Def WS, 46th in DBPM, Outside Top 20 for DRating and 36th for D-PIPM

Barton is nowhere near the impact of Giannis defensively. Don't get caught up in RPM yet, fam. Revisit this thread in 2-3 months and you'll see how ridiculous some of this looks

EDIT: BTW I'm not saying Barton isn't playing well defensively, he clearly is, but Giannis is on a whole other tier right now and should be the favorite for DPOY. He's having big man level impact there

[tontoz]

It gives a pretty good explanation as to why LeBron is running away with this stat this year. He improved a lot compared to last year. He does play a lot better. So I'm okay with him being number 1 if we say it is in comparison with last years performance. He improved ---> good stat. OK. But Doncic at 15 and Tatum at 4? Based on... what?

If you look at this years plus minus Doncic wouldn't be top 50.


http://www.82games.com/1920/19DAL4.HTM#onoff

Like i said before, +/- in small sample sizes can give very strange results. The reason Doncic ranks as high as he does is because RPM takes last year into account, and expected improvement this year.



Tatum on the other hand might have the best basic +/- in the league so far this season.

http://www.82games.com/1920/19BOS9.HTM#onoff

As i understand it RPM is attempting to smooth out the sometimes extreme results that can happen with +/-, i am just not sure exactly how they are doing it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So 'PIPM' basically took over 'RAPM'?

The main issue I have with RAPM is it coming out after the season. AND playoffs. That but ALSO multiple year RAPM looking more accurate than single year ratings.

PIPM definitely falls in line with what's happening so far. Not completely. Not even close. But most accurately.

[NBAGOAT]

Well that would be in reference to DRPM toward the end of the season

The RPM today is meaningless. I assure you the Top 10 that you see today will be very different in 2-3 months, by nature of plus/minus data

Currently there's too much noise that needs to be separated. That only happens as more games/data comes in and the picture gets clearer

Giannis is literally leading the league in D-PIPM, DRating, Defensive WS and is 3rd in DBPM.

Will Barton is 26th in Def WS, 46th in DBPM, Outside Top 20 for DRating and 36th for D-PIPM

Barton is nowhere near the impact of Giannis defensively. Don't get caught up in RPM yet, fam. Revisit this thread in 2-3 months and you'll see how ridiculous some of this looks

EDIT: BTW I'm not saying Barton isn't playing well defensively, he clearly is, but Giannis is on a whole other tier right now and should be the favorite for DPOY. He's having big man level impact there

i'm going say it give millsap some consideration. He turned denver from 25th defensively 2 years ago to 10th and now 2nd so far with a roster that doesnt wow defensively imo(harris and barton and the bench are nice tbf). He was not that much worse than prime draymond even in atlanta defensively. You can make an outside argument that he's matched jokic's impact with how lackadaiscal he's been. I think denver will move on to grant at the 4 next year and it's going be a really underrated loss.

Giannis ofc has a great argument but he has one of the best defensive centers and point guards backing him up. you can even make an outside argument brook is more crucial for that defense. Obviously ad is a candidate and idc how bad utah is right now, gobert always has a chance.

[Turbo Slayer]

LeGOAT James

:applause:

[NBAGOAT]

So 'PIPM' basically took over 'RAPM'?

The main issue I have with RAPM is it coming out after the season. AND playoffs. That but ALSO multiple year RAPM looking more accurate than single year ratings.

PIPM definitely falls in line with what's happening so far. Not completely. Not even close. But most accurately.

i just am not sure about pipm being luck adjusted(which means like accounting for hot or cold shooting). It's great for predictive purposes but I prefer something that's both predictive and descriptive.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

i just am not sure about pipm being luck adjusted(which means like accounting for hot or cold shooting). It's great for predictive purposes but I prefer something that's both predictive and descriptive.

Word.

In your opinion, how accurate is Gitlabs' version of RAPM? Don't think another website does year to year regression like they do. Not anymore at least.

[NBAGOAT]

Word.

In your opinion, how accurate is Gitlabs' version of RAPM? Don't think another website does year to year regression like they do. Not anymore at least.

i dont think so either. i just check realgm's rapm thread at the end of the year. someone usually has the correct one posted.

[tpols]

did lebron suddenly start playing defense again? because his rank is very elite.

Will he guard kawhi in the playoffs or let kuzma do it? Will it translate?

Because his defense has been so bad there its hard to guess.

[NBAGOAT]

did lebron suddenly start playing defense again? because his rank is very elite.

Will he guard kawhi in the playoffs or let kuzma do it? Will it translate?

Because his defense has been so bad there its hard to guess.

he has according to most people but he still plays the free safety role a lot from what I seen. He'll have to guard kawhi or george in the playoffs however, the lakers might not even be able to play kuzma that many minutes. Only other option is to play big and put ad and danny on kawhi/george which isnt good.

[Gil Renard]

17th season and still the best in the world :cheers: :rockon: :banana:

[LAmbruh]

WE WIN AGAIN! :djparty

[Andrei89]

What the **** is RPM?

[Uncle Drew]

What the **** is RPM?
Only the single most important stat to evaluate and determine which player has the most impact on a team, albeit positive or negative.

[elementally morale]

Only the single most important stat to evaluate and determine which player has the most impact on a team, albeit positive or negative.

This is interesting.

https://cornerthreehoops.wordpress.com/2014/04/17/explaining-espns-real-plus-minus/

Long but interesting.

[stalkerforlife]

Bran's minutes are staggered to ensure he plays against second units every game.

Nice try.

[ImKobe]

What the **** is RPM?

A really inconsistent stat that apparently "predicts" a player's production based on age and previous seasons, yet certain players go from average to elite despite them aging or their teams getting worse on defense, it seems that it also takes the back-ups production into account so a player like Lebron would have the best DRPM at his position because his back-ups are a lot worse on that end in comparison.

Like, there's no reason Harden's DRPM (1.95) should be almost as high as Giannis' (2.04), how can you look at the two teams and say that a PG on an average defensive team is basically as valuable as the defensive anchor on the best defense in the league?. How can you explain Caruso having a 3.19 DRPM, which is 13th in the league, above Gobert, Beverley, Howard, McGee, Davis etc? Caruso hasn't previously had any great defensive seasons (13th among SGs last season in 25 games) and RPM is supposed to take that into account, yet apparently it doesn't in this case?

Lebron's DRPM was tanking from 16-18 and it was above-average last season despite him looking terrible on that end and the Lakers' defense tanking after Zo's injury..It's basically doubled this season but he's ranked about accurately as 4th among SFs behind Kawhi. AD's DRPM should be a lot higher with how he's produced too, but I guess having Howard on the team somehow hurts that number. a 98 DRTG should have him a lot higher than he is because he's leading the team in spg, bpg, DWS and DBPM, yet he's ranked 143rd overall in DRPM after being 15th overall last season? Makes no sense.

[Smoke117]

A really inconsistent stat that apparently "predicts" a player's production based on age and previous seasons, yet certain players go from average to elite despite them aging or their teams getting worse on defense, it seems that it also takes the back-ups production into account so a player like Lebron would have the best DRPM at his position because his back-ups are a lot worse on that end in comparison.

Like, there's no reason Harden's DRPM (1.95) should be almost as high as Giannis' (2.04), how can you look at the two teams and say that a PG on an average defensive team is basically as valuable as the defensive anchor on the best defense in the league?. How can you explain Caruso having a 3.19 DRPM, which is 13th in the league, above Gobert, Beverley, Howard, McGee, Davis etc? Caruso hasn't previously had any great defensive seasons (13th among SGs last season in 25 games) and RPM is supposed to take that into account, yet apparently it doesn't in this case?

Lebron's DRPM was tanking from 16-18 and it was above-average last season despite him looking terrible on that end and the Lakers' defense tanking after Zo's injury..It's basically doubled this season but he's ranked about accurately as 4th among SFs behind Kawhi. AD's DRPM should be a lot higher with how he's produced too, but I guess having Howard on the team somehow hurts that number. a 98 DRTG should have him a lot higher than he is because he's leading the team in spg, bpg, DWS and DBPM, yet he's ranked 143rd overall in DRPM after being 15th overall last season? Makes no sense.

It's hilarious how so called Laker fans like Imkobrick are upset that this stat predicts Bran to be the most impactful player in the league. I guess he'd rather have scrubs still leading the team to 20 wins again instead with -2.67 RPM's.

Having said that, RPM is a vastly overrated stat as you will have a high RPM from the simple fact of someone coming in for you that is garbage. It's more like a stat that identifies how much your team loses when you are replaced in the line up. Look at McCollum for instance, he's 2nd for SG's and 12th overall and he's been garbage this season. That isn't really surprising as the Blazer back ups don't even belong in the NBA. RAPM is a much better statistical analysis of impact.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Tatum on the other hand might have the best basic +/- in the league so far this season.

http://www.82games.com/1920/19BOS9.HTM#onoff

As i understand it RPM is attempting to smooth out the sometimes extreme results that can happen with +/-, i am just not sure exactly how they are doing it. Some twit troll Laker fans went all out to trash Tatum and got a lot of the board thinking Tatum sucks. The shock and backlash when he makes the all-star game is going to be staggering. Not commenting on RPM (I don't know what it is and anyone that doesn't know the equation doesn't know it either) but just watching him play I know that by the standards of NBA wings he is great or at least good at everything. His flaw is his field goal percentage, which is thr result of missing lay-ups that he's hit more consistently in the past. Burr he's still a good shooter, excellent defender, athletic, long, and always able to get a shot off. He plays a ton of minutes and doesn't miss games for a good team so any stat that tries to measure impact on winning should rate him highly.

[AirTupac]

Tatum 20 ppg on 40% is so good and elite. Allstar level :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[LoneyROY7]

Tatum 20 ppg on 40% is so good and elite. Allstar level :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Tatum #5 and Jaylen #27. :lol

Had to scroll all the way to the 3rd page to find Ingram. :(

[Real Men Wear Green]

Tatum 20 ppg on 40% is so good and elite. Allstar level :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:Case in point.

[AirTupac]

Tatum #5 and Jaylen #27. :lol

Had to scroll all the way to the 3rd page to find Ingram. :(


Ingram has blown those dupes out of the water. Not even worth acknowledging anymore :lol

20 points on 20 shots. AMAZING!!!!

[LoneyROY7]

Ingram has blown those dupes out of the water. Not even worth acknowledging anymore :lol

20 points on 20 shots. AMAZING!!!!

Empty stats equals "blowing them out of the water"?

25 ppg and the 2nd worst record in the conference. Zero impact.

[AirTupac]

Empty stats equals "blowing them out of the water"?

25 ppg and the 2nd worst record in the conference. Zero impact.

Happens to every good player on a bad team. This is a hard concept for you or something? AD is MVP and DPOY with a good team now.

[LoneyROY7]

Happens to every good player on a bad team. This is a hard concept for you or something? AD is MVP and DPOY with a good team now.

Ummm, so what happened to Ingram last year then? :oldlol: :oldlol:

#noimpact #nowins

[AirTupac]

Ummm, so what happened to Ingram last year then? :oldlol: :oldlol:

#noimpact #nowins


Playoff mode activated happened 2-7. Lakers were 4th seed in a stacked conference with a bunch of young guys before everyone got injured and LeBron went playoff mode on.

[FKAri]

Surprised to find some actual discussion in this thread. I guess ISH still has some life left in it :applause:

[ImKobe]

It's hilarious how so called Laker fans like Imkobrick are upset that this stat predicts Bran to be the most impactful player in the league. I guess he'd rather have scrubs still leading the team to 20 wins again instead with -2.67 RPM's.

Having said that, RPM is a vastly overrated stat as you will have a high RPM from the simple fact of someone coming in for you that is garbage. It's more like a stat that identifies how much your team loses when you are replaced in the line up. Look at McCollum for instance, he's 2nd for SG's and 12th overall and he's been garbage this season. That isn't really surprising as the Blazer back ups don't even belong in the NBA. RAPM is a much better statistical analysis of impact.

I'm not upset, I just don't see how it makes sense based on the criteria, like how on earth does James Harden have as high of a DRPM as Giannis? How does a back-up like Caruso rank above the best defensive bigs in the league?

And speaking of scrubs, Zo last season was top 10 in DRPM among PGs with near-identical DRPM to Patrick Beverley and Eric Bledsoe and the Lakers had pretty much the same record with him as they did with Bron so I wouldn't call him a scrub if that's who you're referring to.

I have no issue with Lebron's overall RPM, it's rather accurate to what he's done so far this season, I do have an issue with Davis' numbers because all the other metrics point to him being the most productive Laker as far as PER, winshares and VORP go. There's no reason he should be ranked 143rd in DRPM on the list when he was 15th last season and 7th overall in RPM. How is a guy with a 98 DRTG(tied for best on the team) so much lower than the PG/SF in DRPM? Is it because his back-up is also very effective on defense? If that's the case then the stat is pretty useless in terms of looking at someone's value/impact.

I just think it's a highly inaccurate statistic and it's hilarious how some people use it to discredit a player when they're dominating via eye test and all the other metrics.

[RRR3]

I'm not upset, I just don't see how it makes sense based on the criteria, like how on earth does James Harden have as high of a DRPM as Giannis? How does a back-up like Caruso rank above the best defensive bigs in the league?

And speaking of scrubs, Zo last season was top 10 in DRPM among PGs with near-identical DRPM to Patrick Beverley and Eric Bledsoe and the Lakers had pretty much the same record with him as they did with Bron so I wouldn't call him a scrub if that's who you're referring to.

I have no issue with Lebron's overall RPM, it's rather accurate to what he's done so far this season, I do have an issue with Davis' numbers because all the other metrics point to him being the most productive Laker as far as PER, winshares and VORP go. There's no reason he should be ranked 143rd in DRPM on the list when he was 15th last season and 7th overall in RPM. How is a guy with a 98 DRTG(tied for best on the team) so much lower than the PG/SF in DRPM? Is it because his back-up is also very effective on defense? If that's the case then the stat is pretty useless in terms of looking at someone's value/impact.

I just think it's a highly inaccurate statistic and it's hilarious how some people use it to discredit a player when they're dominating via eye test and all the other metrics.
LeBron leads the Lakers in VORP by a decent margin. Stop lying.

[Uncle Drew]

LeBron is twice the player Jimmy Butler is. Seems about right.

[ImKobe]

LeBron leads the Lakers in VORP by a decent margin. Stop lying.

Sorry, they're about even in that category because of AD playing 1 less game, but he's clearly leading the team in points, rebounds, steals, blocks, PER, WS/48 and winshares in both categories despite playing 1 less game than Lebron. Lebron does average a shit ton of assists but he's also averaging 3.8 TOs to AD's 2.3 and he's much worse at shooting this season.

They're about even in overall impact but the difference is that AD will likely maintain his production while Lebron is known for going through slumps in the middle of the season.

[RRR3]

BPM, on/off and RPM have LeBron as clearly superior. Sorry, Im14Be

[tontoz]

Some twit troll Laker fans went all out to trash Tatum and got a lot of the board thinking Tatum sucks. The shock and backlash when he makes the all-star game is going to be staggering. Not commenting on RPM (I don't know what it is and anyone that doesn't know the equation doesn't know it either) but just watching him play I know that by the standards of NBA wings he is great or at least good at everything. His flaw is his field goal percentage, which is thr result of missing lay-ups that he's hit more consistently in the past. Burr he's still a good shooter, excellent defender, athletic, long, and always able to get a shot off. He plays a ton of minutes and doesn't miss games for a good team so any stat that tries to measure impact on winning should rate him highly.


FG% is a useless stat for wing players anyway.

I will say that his 2 pt % is a little weak. Beal went through the same thing his first few years.

[ImKobe]

BPM, on/off and RPM have LeBron as clearly superior. Sorry, Im14Be

RPM has Davis above Lebron in 2018 and 2019. ESPN is pushing it's agenda now that they're teammates. :facepalm

[RRR3]

RPM has Davis above Lebron in 2018 and 2019. ESPN is pushing it's agenda now that they're teammates. :facepalm
https://www.dictionary.com/e/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Tin_foil_hat_2.jpg

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wanted to bump this for NBAGOAT.

Found season to season RAPM. Up to date, weekly regression too.
http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=1109440799

Have at it, bud.

[Rico2016]

https://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads9/5df15ccc933db/5df15ccc8c1dd-Screenshot_2019-12-11_at_22.16.46.png

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

Why is LeBron still leading the league by a landslide?

https://i.postimg.cc/xqVk5HCZ/Rprprprprprprprp.jpg

[SpaceJam2]

https://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads9/5df15ccc933db/5df15ccc8c1dd-Screenshot_2019-12-11_at_22.16.46.png

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

update

still #1

https://i.postimg.cc/wvfcj5bp/updated.png

A larger sample size shifted a few guys
Kawhi jumped way up
Giannis jumped up a bit
Milsap and George dropped a bit

Bron is still #1 by a considerably margin tho :pimp:

[dbugz]

https://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads9/5df15ccc933db/5df15ccc8c1dd-Screenshot_2019-12-11_at_22.16.46.png

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM


https://media2.giphy.com/media/l1J9HcQqF1RQe0rXG/giphy.gif

[warriorfan]

update

still #1

https://i.postimg.cc/wvfcj5bp/updated.png

A larger sample size shifted a few guys
Kawhi jumped way up
Giannis jumped up a bit
Milsap and George dropped a bit

Bron is still #1 by a considerably margin tho :pimp:

-14 vs the Bucks doe

[SpaceJam2]

RPM has Davis above Lebron in 2018 and 2019. ESPN is pushing it's agenda now that they're teammates. :facepalm

2020 season: AD vs LBJ (Advanced)

AD
OBP: 3.7
DBP: 3.5
BPM: 7.1
VORP: 2.3
PER: 29.4
WS: 5.6
RPM: 2.78
RPM WINS: 2.31


LBJ
OBP: 7.0
DBP: 2.0
BPM: 9.0
VORP: 2.8
PER: 26.5
WS: 4.6
RPM: 9.56 *league leading
RPM WINS: 6.91 *league leading

We done here? This basically tells us AD is better on D and LeBron is better on O, but LeBron's advantage in offense outweighs Davis's advantage in defense. Pretty simple stuff if you finished college...

[SpaceJam2]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/l1J9HcQqF1RQe0rXG/giphy.gif

#4

Huge impact :cheers:

[warriorfan]

2020 season: AD vs LBJ (Advanced)

AD
OBP: 3.7
DBP: 3.5
BPM: 7.1
VORP: 2.3
PER: 29.4
WS: 5.6
RPM: 2.78
RPM WINS: 2.31


LBJ
OBP: 7.0
DBP: 2.0
BPM: 9.0
VORP: 2.8
PER: 26.5
WS: 4.6
RPM: 9.56 *league leading
RPM WINS: 6.91 *league leading

We done here? This basically tells us AD is better on D and LeBron is better on O, but LeBron's advantage in offense outweighs Davis's advantage in defense. Pretty simple stuff if you finished college...

Want to explain what those stats mean and how they are calculated in your own words?

[Ghost1]

Want to explain what those stats mean and how they are calculated in your own words?

I bet they give Bran 5 extra RPM for nothing.. :oldlol:

#LeESPN #LeManufactured

[Andrei89]

Playoff mode activated happened 2-7. Lakers were 4th seed in a stacked conference with a bunch of young guys before everyone got injured and LeBron went playoff mode on.


You mean before Lebron got injured you fat sour piece of shit:lol

[ImKobe]

UPDATE: Giannis is now #1 and pulling away, He could end up with the highest ORPM and DRPM with him being top 3 and close to #1 in both of them. Lebron sadly is just 3rd in ORPM and 7th in DRPM, his RPM numbers have seen a steep decline the past month

[LostCause]

Seems like there’s more at play

These changes happened in the last 3-4 days. Davis went from about 87th to 13th, LeBron went from being way ahead of everyone else with an RPM of 10.34 to dropping all the way down to 6. Now 6 isn’t bad, he’s still 2nd in the league, but dropping 4 whole points is pretty wild

So either the data we received up to this point of the Lakers without LeBron was so small that it was being massively skewed, or ESPN had been fudging with the numbers here or there’s just been wonky shit in general for LA and it was just rectified

I suppose we’ll get a clearer answer soon enough

[Manny98]

Seems like there’s more at play

These changes happened in the last 3-4 days. Davis went from about 87th to 13th, LeBron went from being way ahead of everyone else with an RPM of 10.34 to dropping all the way down to 6. Now 6 isn’t bad, he’s still 2nd in the league, but dropping 4 whole points is pretty wild

So either the data we received up to this point of the Lakers without LeBron was so small that it was being massively skewed, or ESPN had been fudging with the numbers here or there’s just been wonky shit in general for LA and it was just rectified

I suppose we’ll get a clearer answer soon enough

No it's because they have completely revamped for criteria for all of the advanced statistics that they use.

[LostCause]

No it's because they have completely revamped for criteria for all of the advanced statistics that they use.

Not really. They haven't really touched offense

However they DID change defense. Which makes sense because their defensive results were terrible. I predicted they'd change it for next season, though I guess it doesn't affect anything to change it midseason either. Regardless the changes at the start of the season simply weren't working and there were certainly eyebrow raising results which probably prompted the changes. Here's a Twitter thread from someone associated with the data now
https://twitter.com/bmacGTPM/status/1233482202836545539?s=20

It's much better (Giannis has CLEARLY been putting up a DPOY-level season which wasn't reflected prior to the changes) but seeing Davis still so low shows it's still missing quite a bit