Statistical proof of a massive leak in Lebron's game that causes weaker teams

[3ball]

.
He destroys wing players, so his teams aren't as good as they should be:


2019 Ingram with.. Lebron.… 18 ppg
2020 Ingram w/out Lebron.... 25 ppg

2006 Hughes with.. Lebron.…. 15 ppg
2005 Hughes w/out Lebron.... 22 ppg first-team defender

2009 Jamison w/out Lebron..... 22 ppg
2010 Jamison with.. Lebron..... 15 ppg


1988 Pippen with Jordan...... 8 ppg
1991 Pippen with Jordan.... 17 ppg.. championship


Obviously, Lebron's teams wouldn't be shit with Pippen as a sidekick, whereas MJ's teams were goat
.

[RRR3]

Antawn Jamison



wing




:yaohappy:

[elementally morale]

https://pics.esmemes.com/how-about-a-warm-cup-of-stfu-for-real-53045687.png

[red1]

one of these days OP will stop posting and I will light a blunt and celebrate him passing away.

[3ball]

:yaohappy:
he was a combo small forward/power forward

Lebron also reduced wade

Bottom Line: Lebron's teams with star wings aren't as good as they should be because he reduces wing players to nothing.. this causes him to win less than mj, whose superior style allowed wing players to thrive, which resulted in better teams

that's the difference between 6/6 and 3/9... Lebron's ball-dominance results in lower team ceilings and weaker teams than MJ, Curry, or Kawhi's off-ball skillset.. He does NOT add the most to championship odds because his style falls short of championship caliber - it's no different then other ball-dominators like Nash and CP3, whose teams fall off greatly without them (12' and 13'), but also fall short of championship caliber WITH them

[elementally morale]

3ball

Why are you alive? What's your goal in life? What do you want to do the rest of your life? This? This is your reason? Your goal? Your life? I really don't get it.

[red1]

OP you need to get laid, and you need to start leaving the house.


you wont think about jordan and lebron 24/7 if you follow my instructions.


with enough rehab and socialization maybe you'll even overcome your mental retardation.

[3ball]

3ball

Why are you alive? What's your goal in life? What do you want to do the rest of your life? This? This is your reason? Your goal? Your life? I really don't get it.
Bottom Line: Lebron's teams that have star wings aren't as good as they should be because he reduces wing players to nothing.. so his teams don't win as much as MJ's, whose superior style allowed wing players to thrive..

that's the difference between 6/6 and 3/9... Lebron's ball-dominance results in lower team ceilings and weaker teams than MJ, Curry, or Kawhi's off-ball skillset.. So he does NOT add the most to championship odds because his style falls short of championship caliber - it's no different then other ball-dominators like Nash and CP3, whose teams fall off greatly without them (12' and 13'), but also fall short of championship caliber WITH them because thier style is suboptimal like Lebron's

[red1]

3ball

Why are you alive? What's your goal in life? What do you want to do the rest of your life? This? This is your reason? Your goal? Your life? I really don't get it.
he's completely insane and its fun to make fun of him.



3ball thinks Jordan would've led mo williams to the championship - he thinks pippen and mo williams are comparable as players. :roll: :roll:

[ShawkFactory]

So it used to be Lebron hinders the games a big men and requires great wings to bail him out.

Now that his circumstances have changed it’s the opposite.

Gotta love how things come full circle :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Hughes was injured, Ingram went through a natural evolution/trajectory and was the 2nd/3rd option to becoming first, Jamison improved his efficiency under LeBron but took less shots.

Idiot.

[MaxPlayer]

.
1988 Pippen with Jordan...... 8 ppg
1991 Pippen with Jordan.... 17 ppg.. championship
.

Pippen scored a career-high 22 PPG in 93-94 when Jordan didn't play and had is 2nd highest average of 21.4 in 94-95 when Jordan only played half the season.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/hmm.jpg

[Manny98]

Player goes from number 1/2 option to number 3/4 option no shit their production is going to go down :rolleyes:

[3ball]

Player goes from number 1/2 option to number 3/4 option no shit their production is going to go down :rolleyes:
Hughes went from 2nd option to 2nd option, but his ppg declined from 22 to 14

ditto Jamison

ditto ingram

all these guys either remained at the same spot, or only moved 1 spot

moving 1 spot shouldn't cause any decline - look at pippen, who peaked at 22 and 5.6 apg without MJ, but peaked at 21 and 7.0 with Jordan.. so his overall production was higher with MJ than without - no Lebron wing teammate can say that.. LeBron destroys wings, so his teams aren't as good as MJ's, and he goes 3/9 instead of 6/6.. it's a major reason why MJ's teams were superior - wings simply thrived alongside MJ, but suck alongside Lebron... so MJ is the better ball player..

[RRR3]

Lmao at retarded ass OP acting like Ingram is the same player as last year. He couldn’t shoot for shit last year or the year before that. Or the year before that. He worked on his game this offseason and now he can shoot. Somehow it’s LeBron’s fault Ingram learned how to shoot.

[3ball]

Lmao at retarded ass OP acting like Ingram is the same player as last year. He couldn’t shoot for shit last year or the year before that. Or the year before that. He worked on his game this offseason and now he can shoot. Somehow it’s LeBron’s fault Ingram learned how to shoot.
He regressed next to Lebron, but is now on the proper trajectory that he'd see next to MJ, like Pippen did.

Given that Lebron destroyed Hughes, Ingram, Jamison, and even Wade, we know that he couldn't win with Pippen.

And that's the difference between 3/9 and 6/6... Wings can't thrive alongside Lebron's skillset, but they thrive next to MJ's, which results in better teams for MJ, aka 6/6

[red1]

He regressed next to Lebron, and is now on the proper trajectory that he'd see next to MJ, like Pippen did.

Given that Lebron destroyed Hughes, Ingram, Jamison, and even Wade, we know that he couldn't win with Pippen.

And that's the difference between 3/9 and 6/6... Wings can't thrive alongside Lebron's skillset, but they thrive next to MJ's, which results in better teams for MJ, aka 6/6
wrong. MJ went up against karl malone and john stockton and not durant/curry/klay/iggy etc. his teams always had perfect health plus relatively weak finals competition. :facepalm :oldlol:

[RRR3]

He regressed next to Lebron, but is now on the proper trajectory that he'd see next to MJ, like Pippen did.

Given that Lebron destroyed Hughes, Ingram, Jamison, and even Wade, we know that he couldn't win with Pippen.

And that's the difference between 3/9 and 6/6... Wings can't thrive alongside Lebron's skillset, but they thrive next to MJ's, which results in better teams for MJ, aka 6/6
Ingram was legit bad his first 3 seasons. Horrendous at times, even. LeBron only played with him for one. LeBron didn’t hurt Wade at all you buffoon. Wade’s PPG went down from 26.6 to 25.5 after LeBron joined. Wow, looks like a similar decline (~1 ppg) to Pippen with MJ versus without. Exposed.

[ShawkFactory]

He regressed next to Lebron, but is now on the proper trajectory that he'd see next to MJ, like Pippen did.

Given that Lebron destroyed Hughes, Ingram, Jamison, and even Wade, we know that he couldn't win with Pippen.

And that's the difference between 3/9 and 6/6... Wings can't thrive alongside Lebron's skillset, but they thrive next to MJ's, which results in better teams for MJ, aka 6/6
What trajectory? He had an incredibly hot start shooting the ball but has come back to earth.

24/7/4 in his last 10 games.

23/6/3 in his last 5.

When you factor in that he’s playing on one of the worst teams in the league? Absolutely pedestrian, non all star numbers.

[Kblaze8855]

Larry Hughes played like 150 out of 750 games with Lebron but Lebron is the reason he only put up 22 a game in two partial seasons. Antawn Jamison goes from 40 minutes a game on a 26 win team to fitting into a contender playing less minutes...supposed to score the same. Ingrams scoring has gone up 4 years in a row....and he went from taking the 3rd most shots on his team to the most while his new team runs all day and gives up...literally....120 ppg getting blown out nightly. Might being a first option in epic defenseless blowouts allow some extra ppg?

You stay coming in here making some Stretch Armstong ass reaches.

[Ainosterhaspie]

[RRR3]

Larry Hughes played like 150 out of 750 games with Lebron but Lebron is the reason he only put up 22 a game in two partial seasons. Antawn Jamison goes from 40 minutes a game on a 26 win team to fitting into a contender playing less minutes...supposed to score the same. Ingrams scoring has gone up 4 years in a row....and he went from taking the 3rd most shots on his team to the most while his new team runs all day and gives up...literally....120 ppg getting blown out nightly. Might being a first option in epic defenseless blowouts allow some extra ppg?

You stay coming in here making some Stretch Armstong ass reaches.
He does it because you allow him to. If he actually got banned, even occasionally, he might learn. Seriously the dude hasn’t even got a short ban in years and he’s arguably the most obsessive poster on here.

[egokiller]

[QUOTE=3ball].
He destroys wing players, so his teams aren't as good as they should be:


2019 Ingram with.. Lebron.

[3ball]

wrong. MJ went up against karl malone and john stockton and not durant/curry/klay/iggy etc. his teams always had perfect health plus relatively weak finals competition. :facepalm :oldlol:
Many other players overcame bigger talent deficits than Lebron faced in 2017 - Lebron got his doors blown off with prime Kyrie, while Dirk beat Big 3's with nothing and Chauncey overcame Shaq/Kobe - yet LeFake gets babied and gets a pass, because he's a fake, manufactured goat, not a real one

But even if we remove his losses to KD, he's still 3/7, with losses in 2011 and 2014 that he was expected to win and had equal/greater supporting talent than the opponent.... and his loss in 2007 included an all-time bad performance.. Overall, he's only 3/7 with super-teams from 2011-2017 - that's nowhere near what MJ would've done.

[72-10]

with enough rehab and socialization maybe you'll even overcome your mental retardation.

i don't believe in that

OP might have been hit in the head too many times though

he acts inebriated half the time on this board, but he's a veritable fountain of MJ knowledge and statistical analysis

[72-10]

wrong. MJ went up against karl malone and john stockton and not durant/curry/klay/iggy etc. his teams always had perfect health plus relatively weak finals competition. :facepalm :oldlol:

https://i.gifer.com/516x.gif

Rodman wasn't there half the time or he'd show up at the last minute and hadn't practiced with the team

and Scottie Pippen the man himself was injured a lot

[RRR3]

Many other players overcame bigger talent deficits than Lebron faced in 2017 - Lebron got his doors blown off with prime Kyrie, while Dirk beat Big 3's with nothing and Chauncey overcame Shaq/Kobe - yet LeFake gets babied and gets a pass, because he's a fake, manufactured goat, not a real one

But even if we remove his losses to KD, he's still 3/7, with losses in 2011 and 2014 that he was expected to win and had equal/greater supporting talent than the opponent.... and his loss in 2007 included an all-time bad performance.. Overall, he's only 3/7 with super-teams from 2011-2017 - that's nowhere near what MJ would've done.
LeBron made 7 finals in 6 years?


Damn he really is GOAT.

[red1]

Many other players overcame bigger talent deficits than Lebron faced in 2017 - Lebron got his doors blown off with prime Kyrie, while Dirk beat Big 3's with nothing and Chauncey overcame Shaq/Kobe - yet LeFake gets babied and gets a pass, because he's a fake, manufactured goat, not a real one

But even if we remove his losses to KD, he's still 3/7, with losses in 2011 and 2014 that he was expected to win and had equal/greater supporting talent than the opponent.... and his loss in 2007 included an all-time bad performance.. Overall, he's only 3/7 with super-teams from 2011-2017 - that's nowhere near what MJ would've done.
blah blah blah


i don't believe in that

OP might have been hit in the head too many times though

he acts inebriated half the time on this board, but he's a veritable fountain of MJ knowledge and statistical analysis
thats good for you. :oldlol:



I truly believe there is something off with 3ball. Ive gone back and forth with him before years ago and he's a retard.

[3ball]

Ingram was legit bad his first 3 seasons. Horrendous at times, even. LeBron only played with him for one. LeBron didn’t hurt Wade at all you buffoon. Wade’s PPG went down from 26.6 to 25.5 after LeBron joined. Wow, looks like a similar decline (~1 ppg) to Pippen with MJ versus without. Exposed.
Pippen was legit bad his first 2 seasons but then became an all-star in year 3 on MJ's watch

Otoh, Ingram was garbage in year 3 under Lebron and is only now blossoming after leaving LeBron

and btw - wade's ppg remained the same, but his apg fell off a cliff because Lebron's ridiculous ball-dominance reduces everyone else's time and assists, which results in low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level.

[elementally morale]

Ingram is not blossoming. He was the 3rd or 4th option and in Zion's absence he is the 1st option. Takes lots of shots and the opponent doesn't care because they know they will outscore the Pels anyway.

Ingram has improved as he has been doing exactly that for years. Nothing extraordinary just circumstances.

[3ball]

Larry Hughes played like 150 out of 750 games with Lebron but Lebron is the reason he only put up 22 a game in two partial seasons. Antawn Jamison goes from 40 minutes a game on a 26 win team to fitting into a contender playing less minutes...supposed to score the same. Ingrams scoring has gone up 4 years in a row....and he went from taking the 3rd most shots on his team to the most while his new team runs all day and gives up...literally....120 ppg getting blown out nightly. Might being a first option in epic defenseless blowouts allow some extra ppg?

You stay coming in here making some Stretch Armstong ass reaches

.
Everything I said was fact - Lebron has a long record of reducing guys - MJ doesn't

You can make excuses for each guy, but I don't have to because Mj never reduced anyone

Otoh, you must make excuses for - Ingram, Wade, Jamison and Hughes, who all saw their stats crater immediately upon playing with Lebron

wade's ppg remained the same, but his apg fell off a cliff because Lebron's ridiculous ball-dominance reduces everyone's time and assists, which results in low TEAM assists and a low-ball-movement brand that struggles on the championship level.
.

[RRR3]

Pippen was legit bad his first 2 seasons but then became an all-star in year 3 on MJ's watch

Otoh, Ingram was garbage in year 3 under Lebron and is only now blossoming after leaving LeBron

and btw - wade's ppg remained the same, but his apg fell off a cliff because Lebron's ridiculous ball-dominance reduces everyone else's time and assists, which results in low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level.
Translation: Why is LeBron so good wahhhhhhh

[3ball]

Translation: Why is LeBron so good wahhhhhhh
No, Lebron reduced Hughes, Ingram, Wade, and Jamison to rubble, so his teams underachieved what MJ's would've done, who only ever elevated guys

that's the difference between 6/6 and 3/9 - wings can't thrive alongside Lebron's skillset, but they can alongside MJ's, so MJ's teams are much better, aka 6/6 perfection and goat career

facts gonna facts

[RRR3]

No, Lebron reduced Hughes, Ingram, Wade, and Jamison to rubble, so his teams underachieved what MJ's would've done, who only ever elevated guys

that's the difference between 6/6 and 3/9 - wings can't thrive alongside Lebron's skillset, but they can alongside MJ's, so MJ's teams are much better, aka 6/6 perfection and goat career

facts gonna facts
MJ drastically reduced Bill Cartwright’s scoring rate and efficiency. We’ve been over this.

[3ball]

MJ drastically reduced Bill Cartwright’s scoring rate and efficiency. We’ve been over this.
Bill Cartwright was an old role player, not a decorated star like Jamison/Hughes/Wade/Love/Bosh/Rose, or a blossoming superstar like Ingram

[RRR3]

Bill Cartwright was an old role player, not a decorated star like Jamison/Hughes/Wade/Love/Bosh/Rose, or a blossoming superstar like Ingram
He was two years younger than Jamison and a former all star.


Exposed.

[3ball]

He was two years younger than Jamison and a former all star.


Exposed.
Jamison was a star in 2009 and 2010 before joining Lebron - he was averaging 22/9


but that was reduced to 15/8 alongside Lebron-ball... and kblaze says this massive reduction was all because Jamison was playing in a winning system - kblaze thinks players should be reduced by 40% to fit into winning systems... :yaohappy:... you Lebron-defenders are ridiculous

btw, 2005 Hughes was 22/5/5 and a 1st team all-nba defender - 89' Pippen wasn't capable of that until like 1992... yet Lebron destroyed hughes and lost his ass, while mj won with pippen and elevated him TO the 05' hughes level.. you can't make this stuff up

[RRR3]

Jamison was a star in 2009 and 2010 before joining Lebron - he was averaging 22/9


but that was reduced to 15/8 alongside Lebron-ball... and kblaze says this massive reduction was all because Jamison was playing in a winning system - kblaze thinks players should be reduced by 40% to fit into winning systems... :yaohappy:... you Lebron-defenders are ridiculous

btw, 2005 Hughes was 22/5/5 and a 1st team all-nba defender - 89' Pippen wasn't capable of that until like 1992... yet Lebron destroyed hughes and lost his ass, while mj won with pippen and elevated him TO the 05' hughes level.. you can't make this stuff up
Meltdown. MJ turned Cartwright into an inefficient scrub.

[elementally morale]

Meltdown. MJ turned Cartwright into an inefficient scrub.

Cartwright didn't need any help achieving that.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Looking at Ingram's scoring. He's getting an extra point per game att he line because his free throw percentage has improved dramatically. He's taking four extra shots per game with explains the remaining extra points.

So I guess LeBron should have been taking fewer shots so Ingram could get more? Because if LeBron took fewer shots he'd be more like Jordan? Only Jordan never took as few shots as LeBron did last year except his first two and last year. He was usually at 23+ while LeBron was a shade under 20.

Other than taking fewer shots what's LeBron supposed to do so Ingram can get the extra shots? Stop passing to other guys? There are a limited number of possessions per game and he wasn't doing a particularly good job at hitting his shots. Not sure why he should be force-fed more.

[RRR3]

Cartwright didn't need any help achieving that.
Sure he did. He was incredibly efficient before he played with the Bulls. Look it up.

[Kblaze8855]

Calling it an excuse to point out that a guy went from 39 minutes and change gunning on one of the worst teams to less minutes(33 and 29 the last two months) on a structured good team.....even talking about Derrick Rose who played 300 minutes of his career with Lebron at under 20 a night on a good team down from 30+ on the Knicks? Just talking about a lot of this as excuses is just childish. Its outright trolling. Nobody could convince themselves of some of the shit you claim.

[RRR3]

Calling it an excuse to point out that a guy went from 39 minutes and change gunning on one of the worst teams to less minutes on a structured good team.....even talking about Derrick Rose who played 300 minutes of his career with Lebron at under 20 a night on a good team down from 30+ on the Knicks? Just talking about a lot of this as excuses is just childish. Its outright trolling. Nobody could convince themselves of some of the shit you claim.
You have the power to stop him.

[elementally morale]

You have the power to stop him.



Problem is... if him why not 80% of the usernames on the board? I think it would be nice to ban 80% overnight. Let's see what happens. At first traffic will go down... but who knows there may be actual discussion of basketball and some lurking posters becoming active again. I'd say it is worth a try. Management doesn't share this view, apparently.

[Kblaze8855]

If I banned people for being wrong there wouldnt be a forum. If he made enough topics at once hed be spamming but simply being obsessed and willing to stretch around the earth to make points that dont need making isnt bannable.

Hes weird as hell being this obsessed with Lebron and Jordan....im not sure what to call it. Its....troubling to think about. But hes no worse than several.

[RRR3]

Problem is... if him why not 80% of the usernames on the board? I think it would be nice to ban 80% overnight. Let's see what happens. At first traffic will go down... but who knows there may be actual discussion of basketball and some lurking posters becoming active again. I'd say it is worth a try. Management doesn't share this view, apparently.
Most of this board should be banned. The only people who actually get banned anymore are Dray N Klay and all his alts and Kenny

[Kblaze8855]

There are 22 people permabanned just with a username starting with "Y".

Literally thousands of people are banned. You just forget they existed.

[RRR3]

If I banned people for being wrong there wouldnt be a forum. If he made enough topics at once hed be spamming but simply being obsessed and willing to stretch around the earth to make points that dont need making isnt bannable.

Hes weird as hell being this obsessed with Lebron and Jordan....im not sure what to call it. Its....troubling to think about. But hes no worse than several.
Except he spams the same shit constantly. And yeah tons of this board should be banned.

[RRR3]

If I banned people for being wrong there wouldnt be a forum. If he made enough topics at once hed be spamming but simply being obsessed and willing to stretch around the earth to make points that dont need making isnt bannable.

Hes weird as hell being this obsessed with Lebron and Jordan....im not sure what to call it. Its....troubling to think about. But hes no worse than several.
That

[Kblaze8855]

Someone was permabanned on December 10th. You just dont notice. Quite a few people with good size post counts vanish and nobody ever brings them up.

I scroll down the list now and then.

[3ball]

Looking at Ingram's scoring. He's getting an extra point per game att he line because his free throw percentage has improved dramatically. He's taking four extra shots per game with explains the remaining extra points.

So I guess LeBron should have been taking fewer shots so Ingram could get more? Because if LeBron took fewer shots he'd be more like Jordan? Only Jordan never took as few shots as LeBron did last year except his first two and last year. He was usually at 23+ while LeBron was a shade under 20.

Other than taking fewer shots what's LeBron supposed to do so Ingram can get the extra shots? Stop passing to other guys? There are a limited number of possessions per game and he wasn't doing a particularly good job at hitting his shots. Not sure why he should be force-fed more.
With Lebron's excessive hold-time, it isn't possible to have 3 stars average 20+ like KD/Curry/Klay's off-ball play allows...

And this lack of optimal distribution applies to the whole TEAM - some guys are averaging 6 ppg who should be averaging nothing, and guys that are getting nothing should be averaging 6... overall, the attack is weaker and doesn't apply more pressure than it faces at the championship level

now compare that to guys like MJ or Curry - their off-ball play allows KD/Curry/Klay to average 20+, while also optimizing the other spots for a maximum TEAM ATTACK that exceeds the opponents on the championship level - so they have better teams, while Lebron's teams always seem less impressive regardless of cast

ultimately, his CP3 skillset is impressive because he's 6'8", but the skillset itself (CP3) is inferior to the MJ's, Kobe's, Bird's, Kawhi's, KD's, and Curry's of the worlds (he's still better than curry though because of sheer physical advantage)

[Ainosterhaspie]

You didn't address the point. There are a limited number of possessions in a game. If doesn't matter if you pass it to each guy twice or one guy runs the clock down and shoots it. In both instances there is one shot. Moving the ball doesn't magically create extra chances. So where are Ingram's shots supposed to come from?

LeBron already made fewer attempts than Jordan by a sizeable margin. Is he supposed to give up even more shots so Ingram could have more? Or are the shots supposed to come at the expense of other players getting chances? The fact is LeBron finishes fewer times than Jordan did, which means his teammates are getting more chances than Jordan's teammates did. Yet you are here complaining that LeBron doesn't let his team get the ball enough.

So explain to me where Ingram's extra shots are supposed to come from. And don't talk about time of possession. It's irrelevant to who's taking the shot. That's what happens before the shot, it's got nothing to do with whose taking the shot.

[StrongLurk]

Kawhi's playstyle last year was similar to 3-peat Jordan (96-98), yet Kawhi reduced Pascal Siakam and Fred VanFleet's games drastically according to OP's logic.

Also, Marc Gasol went from 15.7ppg to 9.1ppg playing alongside 96-98 MJ, I mean Kawhi.

[3ball]

You didn't address the point. There are a limited number of possessions in a game. If doesn't matter if you pass it to each guy twice or one guy runs the clock down and shoots it. In both instances there is one shot. Moving the ball doesn't magically create extra chances. So where are Ingram's shots supposed to come from?

LeBron already made fewer attempts than Jordan by a sizeable margin. Is he supposed to give up even more shots so Ingram could have more? Or are the shots supposed to come at the expense of other players getting chances? The fact is LeBron finishes fewer times than Jordan did, which means his teammates are getting more chances than Jordan's teammates did. Yet you are here complaining that LeBron doesn't let his team get the ball enough.

So explain to me where Ingram's extra shots are supposed to come from. And don't talk about time of possession. It's irrelevant to who's taking the shot. That's what happens before the shot, it's got nothing to do with whose taking the shot.
Why is LeBron the only guy in the league that must have the ball in his hands?.. only his teams have a narrative that the ball must be in his hands only - only his teams shouldn't move the ball

And I did address the point

The lack of optimal distribution applies to the whole TEAM - some guys are averaging 6 ppg who should be averaging nothing, and guys that are getting nothing should be averaging 6... overall, the 1-ball-dominator attack is weaker and doesn't apply more pressure than it faces at the championship level

now compare that to guys like MJ or Curry - their off-ball play allows KD/Curry/Klay to average 20+, while also optimizing the other spots for a maximum TEAM ATTACK that exceeds the opponents on the championship level - so they have better teams, while Lebron's teams always seem less impressive regardless of cast

ultimately, his CP3 skillset is impressive because he's 6'8", but the skillset itself (CP3) is inferior to the MJ's, Kobe's, Bird's, Kawhi's, KD's, and Curry's of the worlds (he's still better than curry though because of sheer physical advantage)

[Ainosterhaspie]

Ah, got it. You have no answer and are just making stuff up now.

[3ball]

Ah, got it. You have no answer and are just making stuff up now.
Why is LeBron the only guy in the league that must have the ball in his hands?.. only his teams have a narrative that the ball must be in his hands only - why only his teams shouldn't move the ball?

there's a better way for all his teams to play, if he could get his same stats off-ball - but he lacks the MJ/Kobe/Bird/Durant/Kawhi skillset, so he can't get his stats that way, and therefore has weaker team ceilings/championship records than all those guys.. it's a massive leak - THE leak that prevents him from goat more than anything else, because it affects his WINNING

[StrongLurk]

Kawhi's playstyle/ability last year was similar to 3-peat Jordan (96-98), yet Kawhi reduced Pascal Siakam and Fred VanFleet's games drastically according to OP's logic.

Also, Marc Gasol went from 15.7ppg to 9.1ppg playing alongside 96-98 MJ, I mean Kawhi.

[RRR3]

Kawhi's playstyle/ability last year was similar to 3-peat Jordan (96-98), yet Kawhi reduced Pascal Siakam and Fred VanFleet's games drastically according to OP's logic.

Also, Marc Gasol went from 15.7ppg to 9.1ppg playing alongside 96-98 MJ, I mean Kawhi.
Bodybagged.


Expect excuses and goal post moving from the shameless troll 3braincells.

[Trollsmasher]

Why is LeBron the only guy in the league that must have the ball in his hands?.. only his teams have a narrative that the ball must be in his hands only - why only his teams shouldn't move the ball?

there's a better way for all his teams to play, if he could get his same stats off-ball - but he lacks the MJ/Kobe/Bird/Durant/Kawhi skillset, so he can't get his stats that way, and therefore has weaker team ceilings/championship records than all those guys.. it's a massive leak - THE leak that prevents him from goat more than anything else, because it affects his WINNING
there's only a limited number of possessions in the game

Jordan finished more possessions than LeBron

Therefore Jordan limited his teammates more than LeBron

[3ball]

Kawhi's playstyle/ability last year was similar to 3-peat Jordan (96-98), yet Kawhi reduced Pascal Siakam and Fred VanFleet's games drastically according to OP's logic.

Also, Marc Gasol went from 15.7ppg to 9.1ppg playing alongside 96-98 MJ, I mean Kawhi.
Gasol went from starter to bench

and Kawhi won with Siakam and VanFleet, while Lebron lost with Hughes, Jamison, Ingram, Wade, Love, Bosh - he lost with everyone and as a the favorite too

reducing teammates only matters if you lose, and Lebron is the goat loser of the modern era, so his goat stat-reduction of teammates makes him the goat teammate-reducer

[NBAGOAT]

Gasol went from starter to bench

and Kawhi won with Siakam and VanFleet, while Lebron lost with Hughes, Jamison, Ingram, Wade, Love, Bosh - he lost with everyone

reducing teammates only matters if you lose, and Lebron is the goat loser of the modern era

ah classic moving goalposts from you. Now reducing teammates doesnt matter as long as you have a ring. Well then it shouldnt matter that lebron reduced wade and bosh, still won two rings.

[SouBeachTalents]

Gasol went from starter to bench

and Kawhi won with Siakam and VanFleet, while Lebron lost with Hughes, Jamison, Ingram, Wade, Love, Bosh - he lost with everyone and as a the favorite

reducing teammates only matters if you lose, and Lebron is the goat loser of the modern era
He actually won with Wade, Love & Bosh. And funny how the "goat loser" of his era has literally won as many titles as any player in the league since he was drafted :oldlol:

[StrongLurk]

Gasol went from starter to bench

and Kawhi won with Siakam and VanFleet, while Lebron lost with Hughes, Jamison, Ingram, Wade, Love, Bosh - he lost with everyone and as a the favorite

reducing teammates only matters if you lose, and Lebron is the goat loser of the modern era

That's an admission of loss if I've ever seen one. GG.

[RRR3]

Bodybagged.


Expect excuses and goal post moving from the shameless troll 3braincells.
Called it :roll:

[RRR3]

Gasol started 19/26 games on the Raptors last year and all 24 in the playoffs. Bench doeee


3ball is the biggest liar on ISH

[NBAGOAT]

a decent portion of the guys arent as excellent at teamplay as 3ball thinks. kd had ball dominance issues in gs. Kawhi has essentially been a pnr ball handler the last few years. Kobe's better than kawhi but still not close the first guy I think of when it comes to offball play or teamwork. Mj, bird, curry sure but last 2 are once in a lifetime types with their playstyle.

[StrongLurk]

Gasol started 19/26 games on the Raptors last year and all 24 in the playoffs. Bench doeee


3ball is the biggest liar on ISH

Mods, can we close this one?

[ShawkFactory]

Gasol went from starter to bench
Look at this dude now trying to apply context when backed into a corner :roll: :roll: :roll:

[RRR3]

a decent portion of the guys arent as excellent at teamplay as 3ball thinks. kd had ball dominance issues in gs. Kawhi has essentially been a pnr ball handler the last few years. Kobe's better than kawhi but still not close the first guy I think of when it comes to offball play or teamwork. Mj, bird, curry sure but last 2 are once in a lifetime types with their playstyle.
Kobe was the most ball dominant of the players you listed.

[3ball]

He actually won with Wade, Love & Bosh. And funny how the "goat loser" of his era has literally won as many titles as any player in the league since he was drafted :oldlol:
He mostly lost with those guys - you're praising his rare wins and ignoring his frequent losing

that's backwards logic

Ultimately, He's 1/4 with Love, and 2/4 with Bosh - so even if he was a 2 to 1 underdog in those years overall, he should win about 3 rings in 9 years... so his 3/9 isn't impressive and not above expectation at all... otoh, MJ's 6/6 is way above what the odds expected - he's expected to lose a couple Finals at least, but his skills resulted in GOAT team ceilings, aka juggernauts, aka optimal teamwork.....

[StrongLurk]

He mostly lost with those guys - you're praising his rare wins and ignoring his frequent losing

that's backwards logic

Ultimately, He's 1/4 with Love, and 2/4 with Bosh - so even if he was a 2 to 1 underdog in those years overall, he should win about 3 rings in 9 years... so his 3/9 isn't impressive and not above expectation at all... otoh, MJ's 6/6 is way above what the odds expected - he's expected to lose a couple Finals at least, but his skills resulted in GOAT team ceilings, aka juggernauts, aka optimal teamwork.....

Kawhi only won last year because of injuries to KD and Klay. Kawhi would be 1/3 if not for that.

Bird played with great talent for his career and only won 3 rings / 2 FMVPs.

Kobe is great but he was not as good a finals player as Lebron has been.

If you are talking about Lebron, then you can really only compare him to MJ.

The thing about basketball is...size and athleticism count. MJ wouldn't be GOAT if he was 5'6.

But tell me, why did a clone of 96-98 MJ reduce his teammates last year?

[NBAGOAT]

Kobe was the most ball dominant of the players you listed.

yea but he has a lot of stuff in the post which is a different type of ball dominance. kawhi and kd both took less than 2fga per game from the post last year. kawhi's shots as pnr ball handler and from isolation are decently close to lebron. kd's not far behind for isolation at least

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Walked in expecting erratic paragraphs filled with gibberish.

Instead I watched a straight up bukake. Yeesh.

Go easy on 3bot. He'll break another circuit and create more threads.

[3ball]

Kawhi only won last year because of injuries to KD and Klay. Kawhi would be 1/3 if not for that.

Bird played with great talent for his career and only won 3 rings / 2 FMVPs.

Kobe is great but he was not as good a finals player as Lebron has been.


- KD didn't play in 2016, and Klay's injury is offset by Dray's suspension, so Kawhi's win is equal to Lebron's 16' win.

- Bird won the same rings as Lebron, but in like 6 less seasons.. So Bird is far superior

- And you're basing the kobe/Lebron comparison on stats, without realizing that Lebron's stats/style results in lower team ceiling and inability to win championships.. So kobe' stats are better/mean more.. you need stats AND winning to be great, not just stats.

- So no, all these guys are better than Lebron's cp3-level skillset... it's great that Lebron's 6'8", but it's still a cp3 skillset (inferior skillset)

[StrongLurk]

- KD didn't play in 2016, and Klay's injury is offset by Dray's suspension, so Kawhi's win is equal to Lebron's 16' win.

- Bird won the same rings as Lebron, but in like 6 less seasons.. So Bird is far superior

- And you're basing the kobe/Lebron comparison on stats, without realizing that Lebron's stats/style results in lower team ceiling and inability to win championships.. So kobe' stats are better/mean more.. you need stats AND winning to be great, not just stats.

- So no, all these guys are better than Lebron's cp3-level skillset... it's great that Lebron's 6'8", but it's still a cp3 skillset (inferior skillset)

Lot of excuses here and bizarre statements, but you missed my last part.

Why did a clone of 96-98 MJ reduce his teammates last year?

Why did KD hold Russell Westbrook back from winning MVP in 2017 and putting up 32/11/10 instead of putting up 24/8/10 like he did in 16?

[Ainosterhaspie]

As usual three ball can't stay on topic and is derailing his own thread.

[StrongLurk]

Why did a clone of 96-98 MJ reduce his teammates last year?

Why did KD hold Russell Westbrook back from winning MVP in 2017 and putting up 32/11/10 instead of putting up 24/8/10 like he did in 16?

[3ball]

Why did a clone of 96-98 MJ reduce his teammates last year?



Any reduction doesn't matter because Kawhi won with Siakam, while Lebron lost with Hughes, Jamison, Wade, Bosh, Love, Ingram, and Derrick Rose

And I explained all your other points:



- Bird is better because he won the same rings in far less years

- KD didn't play in 2016, and Klay's injury is offset by Dray's suspension, so Kawhi's win is equal to Lebron's 16' win.

- you're basing the kobe/Lebron comparison on stats, without realizing that Lebron's stats/style results in lower team ceiling and inability to win championships.. So kobe' stats are better/mean more.. you need stats AND winning to be great, not just stats that result in losing

- So no, all these guys are better than Lebron's cp3-level skillset... it's great that Lebron's 6'8", but it's still a cp3 skillset (inferior skillset), so he can't win as much.. :confusedshrug:

[StrongLurk]

Any reduction doesn't matter because Kawhi won with Siakam, while Lebron lost with Hughes, Jamison, Wade, Bosh, Love, Ingram, and Derrick Rose

And I explained all your other points:



- Bird is better because he won the same rings in far less years

- KD didn't play in 2016, and Klay's injury is offset by Dray's suspension, so Kawhi's win is equal to Lebron's 16' win.

- you're basing the kobe/Lebron comparison on stats, without realizing that Lebron's stats/style results in lower team ceiling and inability to win championships.. So kobe' stats are better/mean more.. you need stats AND winning to be great, not just stats that result in more losing than winning.

- So no, all these guys are better than Lebron's cp3-level skillset... it's great that Lebron's 6'8", but it's still a cp3 skillset (inferior skillset)

This was already refuted and again you missed some.

Why did KD hold Russell Westbrook back from winning MVP in 2017 and putting up 32/11/10 instead of putting up 24/8/10 like he did in 16?

You are deflecting because you know your argument is highly flawed.

[3ball]

This was already refuted and again you missed some.

Why did KD hold Russell Westbrook back from winning MVP in 2017 and putting up 32/11/10 instead of putting up 24/8/10 like he did in 16?
No, you didn't refute anything I said, and I refuted everything you said

And who cares about Westbrook - Westbrook is a cancer that can't play with anyone - he's a LeBron - you can't knock someone for playing bad with Lebron or westbrook.. :facepalm

[AlternativeAcc.]

No, you didn't refute anything I said, and I refuted everything you said

And who cares about Westbrook - Westbrook is a cancer that can't play with anyone - he's a LeBron - you can't knock someone for playing bad with Lebron or westbrook.. :facepalm
You said Westbrook was the best player in the world in 2017 and the closest player to MJ

Big yikes :lol

Still waiting on that kevin love mvp you promised us too

[StrongLurk]

No, you didn't refute anything I said, and I refuted everything you said

And who cares about Westbrook - Westbrook is a cancer that can't play with anyone - he's a LeBron - you can't knock someone for playing bad with Lebron or westbrook.. :facepalm

It was refuted, you just moved the goal posts or completely ignore things.

Kawhi reduced his teammates, that already ruins your argument. You even agreed.

Two, Kawhi only won because Klay and KD were injured. So that even refutes your goal-post moved argument.

And now you can't even reply to KD holding back Westbrook from winning MVP the year after KD left.

Hell, we've seen that Kyrie played just as well with Lebron for 3 years than he did without Lebron. You could argue Kyrie played a little better with Lebron.

[3ball]

It was refuted, you just moved the goal posts or completely ignore things.

Kawhi reduced his teammates, that already ruins your argument. You even agreed.

Two, Kawhi only won because Klay and KD were injured. So that even refutes your goal-post moved argument.

And now you can't even reply to KD holding back Westbrook from winning MVP the year after KD left.

Hell, we've seen that Kyrie played just as well with Lebron for 3 years than he did without Lebron. You could argue Kyrie played a little better with Lebron.
Kawhi won with Siakam and VanFleet, so that doesn't compare to Lebron losing with Hughes, Jamison, Wade, Ingram, etc.. You didn't refute that.

And again, Kawhi beat a Curry/Klay/Dray core with 1 guy missing 1 game, which is the same feat as Lebron in 2016

The only thing I didn't refute was the Westbrook point - but that's a moot point because Westbrook should never be the MVP of any KD-team.. you have no point essentially

[NBAGOAT]

- KD didn't play in 2016, and Klay's injury is offset by Dray's suspension, so Kawhi's win is equal to Lebron's 16' win.

- Bird won the same rings as Lebron, but in like 6 less seasons.. So Bird is far superior

- And you're basing the kobe/Lebron comparison on stats, without realizing that Lebron's stats/style results in lower team ceiling and inability to win championships.. So kobe' stats are better/mean more.. you need stats AND winning to be great, not just stats.

- So no, all these guys are better than Lebron's cp3-level skillset... it's great that Lebron's 6'8", but it's still a cp3 skillset (inferior skillset)

I'll say it few have maximized talent like cp3, again stop acting like it's some kind of insult and yes i'm personally offended you keep using him or nash as an example.

Turned a good but an unspectacular core in 08 into a 2nd tier contender. Ik kobe fans will bring up how kobe only had gasol, odom in 08 while cp3 had west, peja, and tyson. it's true but gasol is a lot better than west and the lakers role players were better too(shaqattack has gasol 17th that year and west not even in the top 25)

Lob city was a contender because of him. Blake had great potential but by the last few years was an injury prone guy who was a mediocre mid range shooter. DJ wasnt even great defensively and redick is an all time great shooter but one dimensional and bad in the playoffs. Bench was truly horrid.
Even with that, cp3 was capable of leading the clips to a 50+ win pace even without blake.

In hou, he added 10 wins to a 55 win team even though hou gave up three great rotation players for him(essentially the clips new core now) and made hou the closest to beating healthy gs from 17-19 even though they werent exceptionally talented outside harden/paul. Even the old injured version of him last year was a huge positive and hou looks like a worse team with westbrook instead of him.

[3ball]

I'll say it few have maximized talent like cp3, again stop acting like it's some kind of insult and yes i'm personally offended you keep using him or nash as an example.

Turned a good but an unspectacular core in 08 into a 2nd tier contender. Ik kobe fans will bring up how kobe only had gasol, odom in 08 while cp3 had west, peja, and tyson. it's true but gasol is a lot better than west and the lakers role players were better too(shaqattack has gasol 17th that year and west not even in the top 25)

Lob city was a contender because of him. Blake had great potential but by the last few years was an injury prone guy who was a mediocre mid range shooter. DJ wasnt even great defensively and redick is an all time great shooter but one dimensional and bad in the playoffs. Bench was truly horrid.
Even with that, cp3 was capable of leading the clips to a 50+ win pace even without blake.

In hou, he added 10 wins to a 55 win team even though hou gave up three great rotation players for him(essentially the clips new core now) and made hou the closest to beating healthy gs from 17-19 even though they werent exceptionally talented outside harden/paul. Even the old injured version of him last year was a huge positive and hou looks like a worse team with westbrook instead of him.
Any team that employs the 1 ball-dominator approach will drop off a lot without that ball-dominator.. See Nash or CP3's teams in 12' and 13' as examples, or Lebron's teams when he leaves.

But the drop-off isn't a signal that Lebron/CP3/Nash increase championship odds the most because their style is inherently suboptimal and falls short of championship ceiling.. Otoh, the players that increase championship odds the most are the players that actually GIVE the team a championship ceiling, i.e. MJ, Curry, Bird, Kawhi, and Kobe

[StrongLurk]

Kawhi won with Siakam and VanFleet, so that doesn't compare to Lebron losing with Hughes, Jamison, Wade, Ingram, etc.. You didn't refute that.

And again, Kawhi beat a Curry/Klay/Dray core with 1 guy missing 1 game, which is the same feat as Lebron in 2016

The only thing I didn't refute was the Westbrook point - but that's a moot point because Westbrook should never be the MVP of any KD-team.. you have no point essentially

Klay missed more than 1 game, plus the role players/defense of the Warriors in 16 were better than in 19. Klay is also more valuable than Draymond.

Again, KD held back the MVP of the league the next season, and also blew a 3-1 lead against the same 16 Warriors team that Lebron beat and Lebron played better against...then KD JOINED that team he blew a 3-1 lead against lol.

But hey man, you do your MJ-lover thing or whatever you've got going on. I've got other things to do now.

[3ball]

Klay missed more than 1 game, plus the role players/defense of the Warriors in 16 were better than in 19. Klay is also more valuable than Draymond.

Again, KD held back the MVP of the league the next season, and also blew a 3-1 lead against the same 16 Warriors team that Lebron beat and Lebron played better against...then KD JOINED that team he blew a 3-1 lead against lol.

But hey man, you do your MJ-lover thing or whatever you've got going on. I've got other things to do now.
Klay missed a game and a quarter - KD played 1 quarter so that makes up for the extra quarter..

you have no point. I win

[NBAGOAT]

Any team that employs the 1 ball-dominator approach will drop off a lot without that ball-dominator.. See Nash or CP3's teams in 12' and 13' as examples, or Lebron's teams when he leaves.

But the drop-off isn't a signal that Lebron/CP3/Nash increase championship odds the most because their style is inherently suboptimal and falls short of championship ceiling.. Otoh, the players that increase championship odds the most are the players that actually GIVE the team a championship ceiling, i.e. MJ, Curry, Bird, Kawhi, and Kobe

what team besides the 18 rockets had a championship ceiling. especially with the postseason injuries are there even 5 guys in history who can MAKE the finals with dj and redick

[tpols]

This was already refuted and again you missed some.

Why did KD hold Russell Westbrook back from winning MVP in 2017 and putting up 32/11/10 instead of putting up 24/8/10 like he did in 16?

You are deflecting because you know your argument is highly flawed.


LOL

Westbrook got raped in all of his solo years in OKC in the playoffs. You're making his point.

Even Ricky Rubio shit on him.

[ShawkFactory]

LOL

Westbrook got raped in all of his solo years in OKC in the playoffs. You're making his point.

Even Ricky Rubio shit on him.
So did KD

[72-10]

there's only a limited number of possessions in the game

Jordan finished more possessions than LeBron

Therefore Jordan limited his teammates more than LeBron

lol the ball-dominated Bran ball is designed to prop up LeBron's own stats

they're the cheapest stats ever gotten, cheaper than Wilt's