Lakers are winning based on talent and would lose vs organic dynasties of past

[3ball]

you can't build great chemistry in 1 year - don't mistake the 1-year chemistry of today's colluding mercenaries for teams that took many years to build a brand and identity..

Accordingly, these Lakers and today's collections of mercenary talent (designed to win right away) would have no chance against the chemistry and brand-oriented dynasties of prior eras that took years to develop..

talent + organic chemistry (previous eras) > talent + 1-year chemistry (today's era)

ultimately, the NBA is now about manufactured rings - organic chemistry/great basketball is gone forever and it's all lebron's fault - his "decision" ruined the culture of great chemistry/great basketball and replaced it with talent-based winning, which is inferior.. So Lebron ruined the game, and is therefore the woat basketball player (worst of all time)
.

[MaxPlayer]

it's all lebron's fault

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEjHCWdU7F4hkcudy/source.gif

[Shogon]

Look dude I know you

[3ball]

Look dude I know you’re trolling but do you ever just stop and breathe? What the ****. The ****ing terminator of trolling. :roll: :roll:
I'm not trolling

the idea that great chemistry and organic brand developed over many years would beat a hodge-podge of talent thrown together is INTUITIVE - it's the natural way to think about it, and therefore not a troll.. I'm merely pointing out some facts that no one seems to care about or has forgotten

previous eras had talented dynasties AND great chemistry/great basketball... today's game has the talent, but the chemistry/quality of basketball is dimensions inferior

[Shogon]

I'm not trolling

the idea that great chemistry and organic brand developed over many years would beat a hodge-podge of talent thrown together is INTUITIVE - it's the natural way to think about it, and therefore not a troll.. I'm merely pointing out some facts that no one seems to care about or has forgotten

Ok. Trolling... not trolling... it

[3ball]

Ok. Trolling... not trolling... it’s the same to me at this point for you.

Do you ever stop to breathe? Like at all?

Regardless if you’re real or not do you even have the faintest concept of how much energy you’ve invested in a player you allegedly detest or want to detract from or whatever? I mean there is so much negative energy coming out of you I sometimes wonder.
previous eras had talented dynasties AND great chemistry/great basketball...

today's game has the talent, but the chemistry/quality of basketball is dimensions inferior

So lebron's "decision" spearheaded the decline of basketball from organic chemistry/great basketball to talent-based winning - lebron is against teamwork and only wants more help/talent to win.. moar help!.. screw teamwork

[MaxPlayer]

Old Person Says The Way Things Were During His Youth Were Better

More At 11

[Wally450]

previous eras had talented dynasties AND great chemistry/great basketball...

today's game has the talent, but the chemistry/quality of basketball is dimensions inferior

So lebron's "decision" spearheaded the decline of basketball from organic chemistry/great basketball to talent-based winning - lebron is against teamwork and only wants more help/talent to win.. moar help!.. screw teamwork

All he wants to know is why you waste so much time talking about one guy? You claim he's overrated and nowhere near Jordan yet EVERY SINGLE THREAD you make is literally about LeBron.

[Keno]

Current, 40 year old dudley would be dominating those dynasties let alone Lebron and AD, those era

[3ball]

All he wants to know is why you waste so much time talking about one guy? You claim he's overrated and nowhere near Jordan yet EVERY SINGLE THREAD you make is literally about LeBron.
because he's that overrated

the media puts this guy up there with Jordan when he's nowhere near... they're so wrong about so many things and so far off that I must point out all the ways they're wrong

it's great that he's 6'8", but he has a cp3 skillset, which doesn't give teams a championship ceiling.. the inferior skillset infact turns teammates into spot-up shooters, thereby not developing teammates/teams and needing to team-hop for ready-made stars/extra talent to compensate for the suboptimal style

so if you think a cp3 skillset that needs to team-hop and win based on talent (can't develop teams) is anywhere near MJ, ur clueless
.

[Uncle Drew]

8:30 AM: LeBron James

[Ainosterhaspie]

https://media.giphy.com/media/bxOtA69x3IB20/giphy.gif

You ok bud?

[DMAVS41]

because he's that overrated.

And where should he be rated?

How many players in NBA history have had better careers?

[Ainosterhaspie]

And where should he be rated?

How many players in NBA history have had better careers?
3Ball had him 15-20 recently, but his list changes daily so who knows.

[3ball]

And where should he be rated?

How many players in NBA history have had better careers?
how many players team-hopped 3 times to play with the best young studs in the league?

How many guys teamed up with the 2nd best player in the league (literally the best help possible)?? twice??? (11' and 20')

how many guys landed on 3 different teams that were Vegas favorites to win in year 1 of existence (11', 15', 20')??... although technically Lebron's 1st year with the Lakers was last year, so 2020 is year 2 (1st year with AD tho)

seriously, what's an easier path - landing on 3 different teams that are favored in year 1, or taking years to develop favorite status (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13899135&postcount=73)?

ultimately, it's great that lebron is 6'8", but his cp3 skillset results in a basic brand/teamwork (teammates become spot-up shooters) that can only win via talent (team-hopping for the extra talent the style needs to win)

[DMAVS41]

how many players team-hopped 3 times to play with the best young studs in the league?

How many guys teamed up with the 2nd best player in the league (literally the best help possible)?? twice??? (11' and 20')

how many guys landed on 3 different teams that were Vegas favorites to win in year 1 of existence (11', 15', 20')??... although technically Lebron's 1st year with the Lakers was last year, so 2020 is year 2 (1st year with AD tho)

seriously, what's an easier path - landing on 3 different teams that are favored in year 1, or taking years to develop favorite status (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13899135&postcount=73)?

ultimately, it's great that lebron is 6'8", but his cp3 skillset results in a basic brand/teamwork (teammates become spot-up shooters) that can only win via talent (team-hopping for the extra talent the style needs to win)

Hey bud. Being taller when playing basketball is an advantage. Welcome to reality. If you think that is somehow an argument against Lebron...like we grade on a curve or something...you are even more lost than I thought.

I ask again, how many players have had better careers than Lebron? And, of course, factor in his circumstances...I'm not asking you to ignore his circumstances. Factor it all in.

And then answer the question and list the players ahead of him.

So we can laugh at you...after I get done laughing at the notion that being a 6'8 athletic monster with CP3's skillset is somehow a diss of a player.

[3ball]

3Ball had him 15-20 recently, but his list changes daily so who knows.
the best skillset and player-type is the 2-way scoring/passing assassin - so that puts MJ #1... With bird and Kobe next (yes, bird was a good 2-way player and all-nba defender)

the next most effective skillset is the physical center - so that's wilt and Shaq at #4 and 5

the next most effective skillset are the bird-feeders, i.e. Magic is #6

the next most effective skillset are the bird-FED.. so Kareem and Russell are at 8 and 9, but I put Duncan ahead of both at #7 because he was less bird-fed, i.e. he didn't need the best PG in the league to win

so after the 2-way assassins, physical centers, bird-feeders, and bird-fed, we have the team-hoppers/talent-seekers - so Lebron is #10 and Durant #11.. I can't put lebron in Magic's class because Magic played off Kareem (off-ball) and played in the post a TON - these factors gave his team a superior brand (#1 assist team) and superior team ceiling than lebron's low assist teams and 1-dimensional attack

my latest top 25 is here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13890094&postcount=16)... although I bumped Kobe down below Magic and I need to update and move Wade up to where Elgin is (right below)

[Real Men Wear Green]

I have to agree with 3ball. Current top 3:

1. 22 year-old Brandon Ingram

2. MJ

3. Lebron

[DMAVS41]

So Lebron is, according to you, one of the 10 best players ever.

So all of this because some people have him roughly 5-7 or so spots higher than you do?

While everyone is in agreement that he's one of the best players in NBA history?

:(

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The Lakers are a 1-2 punch with really good role players. And great team defense.

That's standard for a word like "organic".

[3ball]

So Lebron is, according to you, one of the 10 best players ever.

So all of this because some people have him roughly 5-7 or so spots higher than you do?

While everyone is in agreement that he's one of the best players in NBA history?

:(
there's a big gap between #10 and #1

the media acts like it's close when it isn't and the gap in winning shows the difference - that gap isn't random and only the unenlightened would think it is

also, guys around the #10 mark could EASILY be #15 behind Dr. J .. basically every great wing especially Kobe, Dr J, Oscar, and maybe even Elgin could be better than Lebron because they would win more if they team-hopped like lebron

infact, tons of guys would win more than Lebron if they had his circumstances - Dirk would win at least 4 rings, actually 5 because he'd win in 2014 (he took spurs 7 that year with no cast, so he'd win with Bosh/Wade/Allen)

now I'm starting to rethink the rankings - Lebron shouldn't be above anyone that would win more in his shoes - so Dr. J and Elgin are better.. Dirk is better... Wade's peak was better (but not overall)... LeBron shouldn't be higher than #15 and likely in the 17-18 range.. re-doing the rankings now.. will post update momentarily

[Real Men Wear Green]

The Lakers are a 1-2 punch with really good role players. And great team defense.

That's standard for a word like "organic".
No pesticides may have been used on the soil for five years. Willing to bet they didn't even use soil. Lakers not organic.

[DMAVS41]

there's a big gap between #10 and #1

the media acts like it's close when it isn't and the gap in winning shows the difference - that gap isn't random and only the unenlightened would think it is

also, guys around the #10 mark could EASILY be #15 behind Dr. J .. basically every great wing especially Kobe, Dr J, Oscar, and maybe even Elgin could be better than Lebron because they would win more if they team-hopped like lebron

infact, tons of guys would win more than Lebron if they had his circumstances - Dirk would win at least 4 rings, actually 5 because he'd win in 2014 (he took spurs 7 that year with no cast, so he'd win with Bosh/Wade/Allen)

now I'm starting to rethink the rankings - Lebron shouldn't be above anyone that would win more in his shoes - so Dr. J and Elgin are better.. Dirk is better... Wade's peak was better (but not overall)... LeBron shouldn't be higher than #15 and likely in the 17-18 range

Your arguments aren't consistent and you have no idea what you are talking about.

Have fun though.

[3ball]

.
Top 25


1) MJ
2) Bird
3) Wilt
4) Shaq
5) Magic
6) Kobe
7) Duncan
8) Kareem
9) Russell
10) Dr. J
11) Hakeem
12) Lebron
13) Durant
14) Oscar
15) Elgin
16) Wade
17) Robinson
18) Moses
19) Barkley
20) Malone
21) Ewing
22) Garnett
23) West
24) Dirk
25) Reed

[Shogon]

.
Top 25


1) MJ
2) Bird
3) Wilt
4) Shaq
5) Magic
6) Kobe
7) Duncan
8) Kareem
9) Russell
10) Dr. J
11) Hakeem
12) Lebron
13) Durant
14) Oscar
15) Elgin
16) Wade
17) Robinson
18) Moses
19) Barkley
20) Malone
21) Ewing
22) Garnett
23) West
24) Dirk
25) Reed

You know how I know you're trolling? You have Kobe above Duncan, Kareem, Russell, LeBron & Hakeem. No objective person would put him above ALL of those guys.

You are a secret Kobe fan and it's been the same shit forever and a day.

I'm never going to forget the time that you slipped up and said Kobe would destroy MJ 1 on 1 because you were on the wrong account, and then laughed about it when I called you out.

You're a troll, and everyone that argues with you as if you are being serious... well, they're a bunch of dumbasses.

[tpols]

Your arguments aren't consistent and you have no idea what you are talking about.

Have fun though.


nah he's right...

there's plenty of players lebrons considered better than that would win more in his career circumstances because they were also great, but much better fits.

Dirk is a great example, he would dominate next to dwayne wade or kyrie in a weak east... just obliterate that conference. He wouldve gotten way more out of the cHeat, many great players would have.

[Uncle Drew]

.
Top 25


1) MJ
2) Bird
3) Wilt
4) Shaq
5) Magic
6) Kobe
7) Duncan
8) Kareem
9) Russell
10) Dr. J
11) Hakeem
12) Lebron
13) Durant
14) Oscar
15) Elgin
16) Wade
17) Robinson
18) Moses
19) Barkley
20) Malone
21) Ewing
22) Garnett
23) West
24) Dirk
25) Reed
:roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

.
Top 25


1) MJ
2) Bird
3) Wilt
4) Shaq
5) Magic
6) Kobe
7) Duncan
8) Kareem
9) Russell
10) Dr. J
11) Hakeem
12) Lebron
13) Durant
14) Oscar
15) Elgin
16) Wade
17) Robinson
18) Moses
19) Barkley
20) Malone
21) Ewing
22) Garnett
23) West
24) Dirk
25) Reed

Bron ruined this guy :oldlol:


No pesticides may have been used on the soil for five years. Willing to bet they didn't even use soil. Lakers not organic.

True.

They're probably on Miracle-Grow. GOAT LiquaFeed.
.

[MaxPlayer]

everyone that argues with you as if you are being serious... well, they're a bunch of dumbasses.

Does anyone actually do this?

[Real Men Wear Green]

nah he's right...

there's plenty of players lebrons considered better than that would win more in his career circumstances because they were also great, but much better fits.

Dirk is a great example, he would dominate next to dwayne wade or kyrie in a weak east... just obliterate that conference. He wouldve gotten way more out of the cHeat, many great players would have.Not to disagree with 3Ball but James was on the EC Champ for 8 or 9 consecutive seasons, which means he could be argued to have possibly been a somewhat dominant player in the conference.

[tpols]

Not to disagree with 3Ball but James was on the EC Champ for 8 or 9 consecutive seasons, which means he could be argued to have possibly been a somewhat dominant player in the conference.


i agree but dirk wouldve won more titles.

and wouldve never team hopped off the Heat. The man won with jason terry as his best mate, dwayne wade would be like trading in a corrolla for a jaguar.

[Real Men Wear Green]

i agree but dirk wouldve won more titles.

and wouldve never team hopped off the Heat. The man won with jason terry as his best mate, dwayne wade would be like trading in a corrolla for a jaguar.
Dirk spent a solid chunk of his prime with a future two-time MVP and a third All-Star. Your assumption isn't a safe one.

[StrongLurk]

OP is such a pathetic person, his personal life must be real shit to have this kind of behavior.

[FireDavidKahn]

Look dude I know you’re trolling but do you ever just stop and breathe? What the ****. The ****ing terminator of trolling. :roll: :roll:
LeBron is living so rent free in 3ball's head that he's already built a mansion on a private tropical island.

[Ainosterhaspie]

In this very thread 3ball has LeBron at #10 in one post then #12 in another. :hammerhead:

[tpols]

Dirk spent a solid chunk of his prime with a future two-time MVP and a third All-Star. Your assumption isn't a safe one.


yea and they were a powerhouse team that lost only because dirk got hurt in the WCFs.

And also...

1) steve nash isn't as good as dwayne wade.

2) shaq kobe duncan garnett manu played in Dirk's conference.. not paul george roy hibbert derrick rose demar derozan paul millsap etc.

so the assumption is pretty concrete.

[Hey Yo]

yea and they were a powerhouse team that lost only because dirk got hurt in the WCFs.

And also...

1) steve nash isn't as good as dwayne wade.

2) shaq kobe duncan garnett manu played in Dirk's conference.. not paul george roy hibbert derrick rose demar derozan paul millsap etc.

so the assumption is pretty concrete.
Which of those players were on the 8th seeded Warriors team when Dirk and his #1 seeded Mavs were beaten in the first round?

[3ball]

Not to disagree with 3Ball but James was on the EC Champ for 8 or 9 consecutive seasons, which means he could be argued to have possibly been a somewhat dominant player in the conference.
but his 2nd and 3rd options were arguably the most dominant players in the conference after LeBron

Ultimately, Lebron's run with a 2 seed in 07' was much-duplicated by others in that time period (Dwight, Kidd, AI) and superceded (Dirk 11'), while his other Finals runs either involve super-teams (11-14' and 16-17'), or the best 2nd option in the conference (15' and 18')..

Regarding the 20' Lakers - you act like this thread is bs, but the team was just assembled, so they can't be winning via chemistry - it's obviously the talent . :rolleyes:

[Real Men Wear Green]

yea and they were a powerhouse team that lost only because dirk got hurt in the WCFs. Every single time? I could be misremembering but I can't recall him missing many games in the postseason. There were times he had some kind of ailment but for the most part he was playing. Further, one of the things that makes James the overrated hype machine that he is is his extreme durability. If he gets hurt, his team is not going to win the EC. So if Nowitzki gets hurt then he's not going to win EC either.


And also...

1) steve nash isn't as good as dwayne wade.He's certainly inferior as a defender and didn't score as many points. But he did win two MVPs. Wouldn't have been my MVP choice but in the MVP seasons it would have been hard to argue against him being the best pg in the game. An argument that the Mavericks didn't put a ton of talent around Nowitzki in those seasons is either fraudulent or just ignorant. I recall Nick Van Exel having 40 point explosions off the bench. They had some serious talent. Antwan Jamison spent a season as sixth man.


2) shaq kobe duncan garnett manu played in Dirk's conference.. not paul george roy hibbert derrick rose demar derozan paul millsap etc. Any season where James won a Championship his team had to beat the best team in the West in a series...of course, what you are saying here has nothing to do with whether or not James was dominant in the EC.


so the assumption is pretty concrete.I will concede that it's...thick.

[ShawkFactory]

yea and they were a powerhouse team that lost only because dirk got hurt in the WCFs.

And also...

1) steve nash isn't as good as dwayne wade.

2) shaq kobe duncan garnett manu played in Dirk's conference.. not paul george roy hibbert derrick rose demar derozan paul millsap etc.

so the assumption is pretty concrete.
You

[tpols]

You’re just going to matter-of-factly state that the Mavs only lost because dirk got hurt? Like this is just a given?

SA was up 2-1 with Dirk playing...


SA was way better than the bulls, raptors, pacers, hawks & ancient celtics.

You're comparing beating popovich duncan manu parker to derrick rose carlos boozer paul george demar derozan kyle lowry etc.

Not only did Dirk win with less help, he faced much stiffer competition.

like he was supposed to beat shaq kobe or the spurs with pre-MVP nash lmao. Those teams were better than the '11 mavs or '13-'14 spurs.

[ShawkFactory]

SA was way better than the bulls, raptors, pacers, hawks & ancient celtics.

You're comparing beating popovich duncan manu parker to derrick rose carlos boozer paul george demar derozan kyle lowry etc.

Not only did Dirk win with less help, he faced much stiffer competition.

like he was supposed to beat shaq kobe or the spurs with pre-MVP nash lmao. Those teams were better than the '11 mavs or '13-'14 spurs.
That

[Real Men Wear Green]

but his 2nd and 3rd options were arguably the most dominant players in the conference after LeBron
And a tear cme to Bosh's eye.

Ultimately, Lebron's run with a 2 seed in 07' was much-duplicated by others in that time period (Dwight, Kidd, AI) and superceded (Dirk 11'), while his other Finals runs either involve super-teams (11-14' and 16-17'), or the best 2nd option in the conference (15' and 18')..

Regarding the 20' Lakers - you act like this thread is bs, but the team was just assembled, so they can't be winning via chemistry - it's obviously the talent . :rolleyes:
So?

[DMAVS41]

Dirk spent a solid chunk of his prime with a future two-time MVP and a third All-Star. Your assumption isn't a safe one.

A bit misleading.

Mavs first made the playoffs in 01...so I'd imagine you wouldn't expect a ton out of a team making the playoffs for the first time with Dirk being 22. They did upset the Jazz in round 1.

In 02 they lost to a championship caliber Kings team that honestly should have beaten Shaq/Kobe...after Dirk destroyed KG in round 1 of course.

In 03, were probably 50/50 to win it all before the Dirk injury.

In 04...had one of the best offenses of all-time, but it was a poorly constructed team trying to play Dirk at center.

And that's it. That was the extent of Nash's time in Dallas. And during that time, Nash was constantly battling injuries and wearing down late in the year because of how physical the game was.

Some good teams, one great one in 03 in my opinion...and that is about it.

Now, yes...you put teams like that in the East playing the kind of competition Lebron played...and you'd be making a lot of finals. No doubt about it.

That wasn't the part of the post I was laughing at. I was laughing at 3ball talking about Dirk almost beating the Spurs in 14...because it went to 7...which is his argument as to why the Spurs weren't that good...and then turns around and ignores that when it comes to the 08 Celtics...who got taken to 7 twice...and doesn't hold that series against Kobe.

Also, while a player like Dirk would do really well on championship caliber teams because he is so portable and really let others play optimal roles...the notion that he's "for sure" winning in years like 12/13/14/16...in place of Lebron is absolutely insane.

[3ball]

So?


So....... the conference often didn't require a good team to win it in that decade (weak conference-winners in 01', 02', 03', 07', and 09'), yet lebron formed a super-team from 11-18' to ensure Finals runs..

that's fair to you?.. you think that a Finals streak at that point (colluding for super-teams in a weak conference) deserves credit?

his Finals streak isn't shit, especially when his margin of loss to the Western champs vastly exceeds every Western opponent (14', 18')

[FKAri]

This is so enjoyable to read.

[Real Men Wear Green]

A bit misleading.

Mavs first made the playoffs in 01...so I'd imagine you wouldn't expect a ton out of a team making the playoffs for the first time with Dirk being 22. They did upset the Jazz in round 1.

In 02 they lost to a championship caliber Kings team that honestly should have beaten Shaq/Kobe...after Dirk destroyed KG in round 1 of course.

In 03, were probably 50/50 to win it all before the Dirk injury.

In 04...had one of the best offenses of all-time, but it was a poorly constructed team trying to play Dirk at center.

And that's it. That was the extent of Nash's time in Dallas. And during that time, Nash was constantly battling injuries and wearing down late in the year because of how physical the game was.
I'd say that 4 seasons is a solid chunk of Dirk's prime. There being factors that hurt the Mavericks doesn't change the fact. Every season we see multiple teams not live up to their potential for a variety of reasons. I'm not saying Nowitzki isn't great, just pointing out it can't be assumed he would dominate the EC the way James did.

[Real Men Wear Green]

So....... the conference often didn't require a good team to win it in that decade (weak conference-winners in 01', 02', 03', 07', and 09'), yet lebron formed a super-team from 11-18' to ensure Finals runs..

that's fair to you?.. you think that a Finals streak at that point (colluding for super-teams in a weak conference) deserves credit?

his Finals streak isn't shit, especially when his margin of loss to the Western champs vastly exceeds every Western opponent (14', 18')
What rule did he break?

[DMAVS41]

I'd say that 4 seasons is a solid chunk of Dirk's prime. There being factors that hurt the Mavericks doesn't change the fact. Every season we see multiple teams not live up to their potential for a variety of reasons. I'm not saying Nowitzki isn't great, just pointing out it can't be assumed he would dominate the EC the way James did.

Your problem is that "not living up to potential" doesn't make sense.

What year are you talking about?

In 01 when they were underdogs to the Jazz and upset them?

In 02 when they lost to a better team in the Kings after beating a Wolves team many thought would win?

In 03 when Dirk got hurt in the WCF?

In 04 when the team wasn't even that good?

You are porting Nash post the rules change into the Mavs. And that just wasn't reality...not to mention he was constantly battling injuries during that time as well.

Dirk led the Mavs to 50 wins or more for 10 straight years in the West...and made mulitple deep runs in the playoffs. I don't think it is going out on a limb at all to expect a bit more with better teams while playing much worse competition.

And, yes...you put Dirk on loaded rosters playing the kind of competition in the East...and you'd get a lot of finals. Don't see how anyone would argue against that, but that doesn't make him as good as Lebron or something.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Your problem is that "not living up to potential" doesn't make sense.It's a statement about the NBA in general. Last year the Warriors failed to three-peat because of injuries. In Cleveland James usually didn't have Love and Irving healthy. Leonard's last Spur postseason was derailed in similar fashion. it happens.


And, yes...you put Dirk on loaded rosters playing the kind of competition in the East...and you'd get a lot of finals. Don't see how anyone would argue against that, but that doesn't make him as good as Lebron or something.On the Heat rosters, yes. But taking Cleveland to the Finals was a different level of accomplishment. Pre-Heat their was no legit second star and post-Heat we saw Love and Irving miss a lot of playoff action.

[AirTupac]

Tatum is now shooting 40% for the season. ELITE

- Twitter fingers

[DMAVS41]

It's a statement about the NBA in general. Last year the Warriors failed to three-peat because of injuries. In Cleveland James usually didn't have Love and Irving healthy. Leonard's last Spur postseason was derailed in similar fashion. it happens.

On the Heat rosters, yes. But taking Cleveland to the Finals was a different level of accomplishment. Pre-Heat their was no legit second star and post-Heat we saw Love and Irving miss a lot of playoff action.

Nothing is certain...I think everyone agrees with that.

However, the competition was super weak in the East during that time.

I'll take my chances with all-time greats figuring out ways to make the finals playing teams like the Hawks and Raptors and those young Celtics teams.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Nothing is certain...I think everyone agrees with that.

However, the competition was super weak in the East during that time.

I'll take my chances with all-time greats figuring out ways to make the finals playing teams like the Hawks and Raptors and those young Celtics teams.
Nowitzki has had great series but he generally has not played at the level Jsmes has in the playoffs. Young as those Celtics were the Cavs needed everything James had to give in 2018, and leading a team that loses it's 2nd and/or third best player to the Finals every year is a serious accomplishment and requires a level of consistent dominance shown by very few.

[DMAVS41]

Nowitzki has had great series but he generally has not played at the level Jsmes has in the playoffs. Young as those Celtics were the Cavs needed everything James had to give in 2018, and leading a team that loses it's 2nd and/or third best player to the Finals every year is a serious accomplishment and requires a level of consistent dominance shown by very few.

Who is arguing Dirk is as good as Lebron?

It certainly isn't me.

Neither I am arguing that Dirk would make the finals every year...

But, I'll take my chances with Dirk playing with really good help while playing pretty weak competition.

This is why team success is a bad measure of how good a player really is...people factor it in way too heavily. Have to go way deeper than just listing "2-time MVP"..."All-star"...etc.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Who is arguing Dirk is as good as Lebron?

It certainly isn't me.

Neither I am arguing that Dirk would make the finals every year...

But, I'll take my chances with Dirk playing with really good help while playing pretty weak competition.
That was the debate I was engaged in with tpols and you were disputing something I said...but, no harm, no foul.

[DMAVS41]

That was the debate I was engaged in with tpols and you were disputing something I said...but, no harm, no foul.

Yes, because you were offering misleading and surface-level analysis...

Akin to "Lebron couldn't make the finals in 09 and 10 with 60 plus win teams"

Just seems stupid to do that on a basketball forum.

[tpols]

Dirk led the Mavs to 50 wins or more for 10 straight years in the West...and made mulitple deep runs in the playoffs. I don't think it is going out on a limb at all to expect a bit more with better teams while playing much worse competition.

And, yes...you put Dirk on loaded rosters playing the kind of competition in the East...and you'd get a lot of finals. Don't see how anyone would argue against that, but that doesn't make him as good as Lebron or something.


See... you agree with our sentiment, but are afraid to admit it.

you dont want to be ostracized for your opinion so you play it safe.

But dirk was a better basketball player than Lebron.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Yes, because you were offering misleading and surface-level analysis...

Akin to "Lebron couldn't make the finals in 09 and 10 with 60 plus win teams"

Just seems stupid to do that on a basketball forum.
You aren't making sense. Steve Nash, at the time he played with Nowitzki, was an All-Star that was destined to win two MVP awards. Finley was a perennial All-Star. And there were a number of good roleplayers. Cuban spared no expense. There is nothing misleading about any of that. Perhaps you are being overly emotional because you feel like Nowitzki is under attack, I don't know, but you don't have a point.

[3ball]

What rule did he break?


talent can't be the only variable in the equation for a championship... there must be other factors like teamwork and brand/identity development...

so while lebron didn't break any rule, he skipped a vital part of being a great player, which is developing teamwork and adjusting to teammates and adjusting your game - he simply skipped these steps and acquired enough talent to guarantee a modest victory frequency regardless of what approach or teamwork was employed.

obviously, this team-hopping and talent-based winning/instant favorite status can't be compared to what MJ had to do (building favorite status over many years via teammate/brand development).. team-hopping obviously isn't as good and doesn't require as much basketball ability (the aforementioned teamwork, adjustments to teammates, learning/executing the best brand, perseverance, etc)

ultimately, Lebron's need to team-hop stems from a non-developmemtal style that turns teammates into spot-up shooters, thus preventing teammate/team development and necessitating ready-made favorites..

the ball-dominator/floor general approach generates great stats for ball-handlers like Lebron, cp3 or nash, but the team is much worse when they to use the floor general approach with a much weaker floor general, like when lebron is out or hurt.. this dynamic can inflate the on-off numbers of floor generals and their impact on championship odds, particularly considering that the floor general approach doesn't yield a championship ceiling (at least not without the best big in the game)






What rule did he break?



Lebron's collusions for super-teams in a weak conference meant he didn't have to do as much to win the conference:


PPG, APG, FG% and GameScore in Eastern Conference Playoffs


2007 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2007/#14-29-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 25.8.. 8.3.. 43.4%.. 22.2 gmsc
2011 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2011/#72-86-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 26.0.. 5.5.. 46.0%.. 21.7 gmsc
2012 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2012/#93-110-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 30.8.. 5.1.. 50.8%.. 24.3 gmsc
2013 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2013/#116-131-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 26.2.. 6.4.. 51.4%.. 21.9 gmsc
2014 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2014/#139-153-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 27.1.. 5.0.. 56.2%.. 22.7 gmsc
2015 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2015/#159-172-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 27.6.. 8.3.. 42.8%.. 20.6 gmsc
2016 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2016/#179-192-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 24.6.. 7.0.. 54.6%.. 21.8 gmsc

1991 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1991/#54-65-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 31.1.. 7.1.. 51.0%.. 26.6 gmsc
1992 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1992/#71-86-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 34.0.. 5.5.. 48.9%.. 24.8 gmsc
1993 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1993/#93-105-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 32.8.. 5.8.. 45.6%.. 24.6 gmsc
1996 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1996/#122-133-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 32.3.. 4.1.. 47.9%.. 23.7 gmsc
1997 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1997/#140-152-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 30.5.. 4.2.. 45.6%.. 21.7 gmsc
1998 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1998/#159-173-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 31.9.. 4.0.. 47.8%.. 22.5 gmsc

[Real Men Wear Green]

lebron didn't break any rule
Thank you for answering the question.

[Manny98]

LeBron only has one other star like everyone else what's the problem

Clippers are easily more talented than these Lakers they're the on paper favorites

[3ball]

LeBron only has one other star like everyone else what's the problem

Clippers are easily more talented than these Lakers they're the on paper favorites
Danny Green, Rondo, Kuzma, Dwight, Bradley, and a lot more


the clipper aren't easily more talented than this - that's a massive exaggeration and probably not true at all, even without considering the massive gap between David Robinson and Pippen... I mean AD and PG

[DMAVS41]

You aren't making sense. Steve Nash, at the time he played with Nowitzki, was an All-Star that was destined to win two MVP awards. Finley was a perennial All-Star. And there were a number of good roleplayers. Cuban spared no expense. There is nothing misleading about any of that. Perhaps you are being overly emotional because you feel like Nowitzki is under attack, I don't know, but you don't have a point.

The details matter.

Lebron was 26 when he joined the Heat. You are using a year in which Dirk was 22 against him...and on a team that never even had made the playoffs before. You really think that is a fair depiction?

You know, like playing real teams...and not the teams in the East....so your comparison is flawed from the jump.

Has nothing to do with "under attack" when I was the first person to argue in favor of Lebron.

I just care about reality...and acting like the Mavs "underachieved" from 01-04 is simply false.

Also, "Cuban spared no expense" couldn't be further from the truth...he let Nash go in part over the money.

Shouldn't be hard to just accurately depict reality. Unless you have an agenda.

[DMAVS41]

See... you agree with our sentiment, but are afraid to admit it.

you dont want to be ostracized for your opinion so you play it safe.

But dirk was a better basketball player than Lebron.

No, I agree that most all-time greats are making a ton of finals playing on the kind of teams Lebron had from 11-18 given the pathetic competition in the East.

What I don't agree with is that Dirk was a better basketball player nor do I agree that guys like Dirk...or even better players...are winning for sure in years like 14 and 16 as has been claimed.

But, yes, it is just ignorant to pretend like Dirk level players wouldn't be dominating that shit East playing with guys like Wade/Bosh/Love/Kyrie given the competition.

And talking about injured Nash pre rules changes losing to better teams as evidence to the contrary is a shit argument.

But nothing is certain and Lebron was/is better than Dirk...just a stupid argument.

[AirBonner]

Danny Green, Rondo, Kuzma, Dwight, Bradley, and a lot more


the clipper aren't easily more talented than this - that's a massive exaggeration and probably not true at all, even without considering the massive gap between David Robinson and Pippen... I mean AD and PG
But swap Kawhi and Bron and you would be saying the clips are too stacked :rolleyes:

[3ball]

But swap Kawhi and Bron and you would be saying the clips are too stacked :rolleyes:
no I wouldn't

I'd say both casts are about even and the better #1 option will decide it

that's normally how it works - casts are normally pretty close among the good teams

listen to Isiah Thomas say that the Pistons had a WAY better cast, but MJ was the difference (Isiah speaks after magic):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s

[Real Men Wear Green]

The details matter.

You know, like playing real teams...and not the teams in the East....so your comparison is flawed from the jump.

Has nothing to do with "under attack" when I was the first person to argue in favor of Lebron.

I just care about reality...and acting like the Mavs "underachieved" from 01-04 is simply false.You're seeing things. Nowhere in this thread do I say the Mavs "underachieved" so why make that your quote? Now I will say that if Nowitzki was as consistently great as Hsames was in the EC, I think he'd have won a ring with Nash. But that's just my opinion on Nowitzki, not a judgment on Dallas.


Also, "Cuban spared no expense" couldn't be further from the truth...he let Nash go in part over the money.This I will concede. My bad re: Nash FA. but overall they were always going over the cap, no?


Shouldn't be hard to just accurately depict reality. Unless you have an agenda.The truth is out there.

[FKAri]

no I wouldn't

I'd say both casts are about even and the better #1 option will decide it

that's normally how it works - casts are normally pretty close among the good teams

listen to Isiah Thomas say that the Pistons had a WAY better cast, but MJ was the difference (Isiah speaks after magic):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s
Careful now. If we're going to start taking what Zeke had to say seriously, I have a narrow and winding path I'd like to walk you down. :oldlol:

[RealSkipBayless]

https://media.giphy.com/media/wsWLkyJJnc1eWk1qLc/giphy.gif

[DMAVS41]

You're seeing things. Nowhere in this thread do I say the Mavs "underachieved" so why make that your quote? Now I will say that if Nowitzki was as consistently great as Hsames was in the EC, I think he'd have won a ring with Nash. But that's just my opinion on Nowitzki, not a judgment on Dallas.

This I will concede. My bad re: Nash FA. but overall they were always going over the cap, no?

The truth is out there.

You argued that what Dirk did from 01 to 04 is indicative of him not being able to accomplish things in the East.

And I said it was misleading...and have explained why.

Again, just look at your above post talking about Lebron winning a ring with Nash. It should matter to you that you are comparing Lebron starting at age 26 with playoff experience...to Dirk at age 22 with no playoff experience. You realize that Dirk got better from age 22 to 26...right?

These are the details...and this is why I said what you posted was misleading and surface-level analysis.

And you continue to do it.

[tpols]

No, I agree that most all-time greats are making a ton of finals playing on the kind of teams Lebron had from 11-18 given the pathetic competition in the East.

What I don't agree with is that Dirk was a better basketball player nor do I agree that guys like Dirk...or even better players...are winning for sure in years like 14 and 16 as has been claimed.

But, yes, it is just ignorant to pretend like Dirk level players wouldn't be dominating that shit East playing with guys like Wade/Bosh/Love/Kyrie given the competition.

And talking about injured Nash pre rules changes losing to better teams as evidence to the contrary is a shit argument.

But nothing is certain and Lebron was/is better than Dirk...just a stupid argument.

He wouldnt have to win all those years but the argument is still outlandish.

Dirk wins for sure in 2011 and 2012 given those competitions.

2013 & 2014 old spurs were nothing to write home about historically. The heat flat out quit in 2014 those last few games because they knew LBJ was gonna bounce and there was no comraderie left. it took a miracle to win the former against a hamstrung tony parker and old duncan.

Dirk almost beat them with monta ellis but couldnt win with a many years of bonding with dwayne wade ? thats a gtfo point man.

sorry.

[DMAVS41]

He wouldnt have to win all those years but the argument is still outlandish.

Dirk wins for sure in 2011 and 2012 given those competitions.

2013 & 2014 old spurs were nothing to write home about historically. The heat flat out quit in 2014 those last few games because they knew LBJ was gonna bounce and there was no comraderie left. it took a miracle to win the former against a hamstrung tony parker and old duncan.

Dirk almost beat them with monta ellis but couldnt win with a many years of bonding with dwayne wade ? thats a gtfo point man.

sorry.

Dude, I already agreed Dirk makes a ton of finals and would win titles.

But your argument is flawed...Joe Johnson almost beat the 08 Celtics. Are you going to argue that he wins the title in place of Kobe in 08?

Of course not.

That is all I'm saying...be reasonable. Don't just start giving players...even all-time great ones...5 titles or whatever in place of Lebron. It is silly.

[tpols]

Dude, I already agreed Dirk makes a ton of finals and would win titles.

But your argument is flawed...Joe Johnson almost beat the 08 Celtics. Are you going to argue that he wins the title in place of Kobe in 08?

Of course not.

That is all I'm saying...be reasonable. Don't just start giving players...even all-time great ones...5 titles or whatever in place of Lebron. It is silly.


Joe Johnson never did anything else of note in his entire career so thats a total moot point. an outlier youre harping on.

Dirk has proven he could win against more, with less... and is a true GOAT so your outlier analogies dont really fit.

and i say that with respect to you and all your opinions but it seems you're afraid to admit your true position on this topic.

[DMAVS41]

Joe Johnson never did anything else of note in his entire career so thats a total moot point.

Dirk has proven he could win against more, with less... and is a true GOAT so your outlier analogies dont really fit.

and i say that with respect to you and all your opinuons but it seems you're afraid to admit your true position on this topic.

It isn't moot...it illustrates a flaw in your argument.

No, it is called being reasonable and balanced.

Lebron making 8 straight finals in the East is one of the most inflated things ever.

One can believe that, while also believing it is still an accomplishment to make 8 straight finals and think that Lebron was/is better at basketball than Dirk.

You really think I'm afraid to give my honest opinion on here? Really? That is your argument...okay...

[3ball]

Careful now. If we're going to start taking what Zeke had to say seriously, I have a narrow and winding path I'd like to walk you down. :oldlol:
Isiah's comments on mj were less subjective - "if you take me and MJ off our teams, pistons would annihilate bulls, but MJ was the difference"

whereas flippant goat comments/opinions mean nothing without backup

[tpols]

Don't just start giving players...even all-time great ones...5 titles or whatever in place of Lebron. It is silly.


thats the crazier point because they were expected to do not 5... not 6, not 7 and so on.

:roll:

you're operating in hindsight and not accounting for the inferior fit.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You argued that what Dirk did from 01 to 04 is indicative of him not being able to accomplish things in the East.

And I said it was misleading...and have explained why.

Again, just look at your above post talking about Lebron winning a ring with Nash. It should matter to you that you are comparing Lebron starting at age 26 with playoff experience...to Dirk at age 22 with no playoff experience. You realize that Dirk got better from age 22 to 26...right?

These are the details...and this is why I said what you posted was misleading and surface-level analysis.

And you continue to do it. He was in his prime. And?

[DMAVS41]

He was in his prime. And?

I actually disagree. I don't think 01 Dirk should be known as prime Dirk...he improved a lot after 01.

Again, Lebron was 26 when he joined the Heat. You have to compare like with like.

But, again, you aren't interested in reality...which is abundantly clear.

:cheers:

[madmax]

Thank you for answering the question.

:lol :roll:

[DMAVS41]

thats the crazier point because they were expected to do not 5... not 6, not 7 and so on.

:roll:

you're operating in hindsight and not accounting for the inferior fit.

Nah, I'm being reasonable enough to acknowledge that Wade/Bosh after 12...really weren't themselves health-wise.

Too many of you people want to argue in a fantasy land.

Wade never slowed down...Bosh was never hurt.

Dirk at age 22 should be known as in his prime and it is fair to compare him to 26 year old Lebron.

Does it ever get ****ing old to try and bend shit constantly? Are you guys just stupid? Think die-hard fans won't see through your BS? Don't care?

I really don't know...but it ruins just about every ****ing thread on here.

[FKAri]

Isiah's comments on mj were less subjective - "if you take me and MJ off our teams, pistons would annihilate bulls, but MJ was the difference"

whereas flippant goat comments/opinions mean nothing without backup
That's just you deciding what is and isn't subjective :oldlol:

[tpols]

Nah, I'm being reasonable enough to acknowledge that Wade/Bosh after 12...really weren't themselves health-wise.

Too many of you people want to argue in a fantasy land.

Wade never slowed down...Bosh was never hurt.

Dirk at age 22 should be known as in his prime and it is fair to compare him to 26 year old Lebron.

Does it ever get ****ing old to try and bend shit constantly? Are you guys just stupid? Think die-hard fans won't see through your BS? Don't care?

I really don't know...but it ruins just about every ****ing thread on here.


none of that matters since bosh was healthy for 95+% of all the heat's games and wade led a playoff team years after lebron left, putting up some epic performances in those showdowns.

There's nobody "bending" anything here... its just reality. You cant comprehend that dwayne wade could have played better in those years under different circumstances, and instead just literally trasnpose what he did with lebron to every other scenario.

[RRR3]

Ttrolls embarrassing himself as usual.

[stalkerforlife]

previous eras had talented dynasties AND great chemistry/great basketball...

today's game has the talent, but the chemistry/quality of basketball is dimensions inferior

So lebron's "decision" spearheaded the decline of basketball from organic chemistry/great basketball to talent-based winning - lebron is against teamwork and only wants more help/talent to win.. moar help!.. screw teamwork

:roll: :applause:

[stalkerforlife]

You know how I know you're trolling? You have Kobe above Duncan, Kareem, Russell, LeBron & Hakeem. No objective person would put him above ALL of those guys.

You are a secret Kobe fan and it's been the same shit forever and a day.

I'm never going to forget the time that you slipped up and said Kobe would destroy MJ 1 on 1 because you were on the wrong account, and then laughed about it when I called you out.

You're a troll, and everyone that argues with you as if you are being serious... well, they're a bunch of dumbasses.

You're the troll and you're the Kobe hater.

Plenty of people have Kobe over all those guys, including many former players.

It's pathetic that you're a troll, but not all people are real.

You're on the same tier as Simon and maybe you are Simon.

[Shogon]

You're the troll and you're the Kobe hater.

Plenty of people have Kobe over all those guys, including many former players.

It's pathetic that you're a troll, but not all people are real.

You're on the same tier as Simon and maybe you are Simon.

Nobody that's rational has Kobe over ALL of those guys. lol. He's a troll and so are you. You're the biggest troll on the entire board only because you tout yourself as the honesty hero when you're the exact opposite and the most full of shit. Maybe not about your personal life but when talking ball you turn into the biggest troll in the history of ISH.

[stalkerforlife]

Nobody that's rational has Kobe over ALL of those guys. lol. He's a troll and so are you. You're the biggest troll on the entire board only because you tout yourself as the honesty hero when you're the exact opposite and the most full of shit. Maybe not about your personal life but when talking ball you turn into the biggest troll in the history of ISH.

You're a troll and inherently because of this fact, you're a liar.

Sad.

But Bransvestites are the lowest of the low.

[Shogon]

You're a troll and inherently because of this fact, you're a liar.

Sad.

But Bransvestites are the lowest of the low.

https://www.andersonleadershipsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Hypocrisy-defined-1000x666.jpg



Also didn't you pick up on the fact that he put LeBron at 12? You think that shit was an accident? Hahaha.

[DMAVS41]

none of that matters since bosh was healthy for 95+% of all the heat's games and wade led a playoff team years after lebron left, putting up some epic performances in those showdowns.

There's nobody "bending" anything here... its just reality. You cant comprehend that dwayne wade could have played better in those years under different circumstances, and instead just literally trasnpose what he did with lebron to every other scenario.

Nah, you just can't treat 13/14 Wade and Bosh like they were as good as they were in 10/11.

Nobody is arguing that Wade sucked or something...he just wasn't the same player for a variety of reasons.

And when you take in reality...it just isn't a lock to win in 13 and 14 by any stretch. And, it certainly wasn't a lock to win in 12 with an injured Bosh in the ECF.

As for Bosh...he would never play in another playoff game for the rest of his career after 14.

[stalkerforlife]

https://www.andersonleadershipsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Hypocrisy-defined-1000x666.jpg



Also didn't you pick up on the fact that he put LeBron at 12? You think that shit was an accident? Hahaha.

I have Bran 15-20, but I don't even feel good about that because he's manufactured.

If every player was allowed to stiff arm, shoulder spear, travel, and team hop to form super teams whenever his help wasn't enough for his liking, then how many players would be ahead of him?

Impossible to know.

[Koresh]

you can't build great chemistry in 1 year - don't mistake the 1-year chemistry of today's colluding mercenaries for teams that took many years to build a brand and identity..

Accordingly, these Lakers and today's collections of mercenary talent (designed to win right away) would have no chance against the chemistry and brand-oriented dynasties of prior eras that took years to develop..

talent + organic chemistry (previous eras) > talent + 1-year chemistry (today's era)

ultimately, the NBA is now about manufactured rings - organic chemistry/great basketball is gone forever and it's all lebron's fault - his "decision" ruined the culture of great chemistry/great basketball and replaced it with talent-based winning, which is inferior.. So Lebron ruined the game, and is therefore the woat basketball player (worst of all time)
.


More proof you don't watch the NBA. The Big 3 Celtics won a title their first year. I'm not wasting my time reading the rest of this bullshit. Go get laid.

[Koresh]

because he's that overrated

the media puts this guy up there with Jordan when he's nowhere near... they're so wrong about so many things and so far off that I must point out all the ways they're wrong

it's great that he's 6'8", but he has a cp3 skillset, which doesn't give teams a championship ceiling.. the inferior skillset infact turns teammates into spot-up shooters, thereby not developing teammates/teams and needing to team-hop for ready-made stars/extra talent to compensate for the suboptimal style

so if you think a cp3 skillset that needs to team-hop and win based on talent (can't develop teams) is anywhere near MJ, ur clueless
.

Since you like stats so much, all the advance stats show LeBron isn't overrated. Quit slobbing on Jordan. He doesn't know who you are and never will. Stop defending him. The GOAT is subjective. It's not that damn serious. I have Wilt and MJ as my GOAT. Do I get a prize for it? No. It's just an opinion. Spend your time doing something else. I am tired of coming here reading your recycled threads of threats to Jordan. No one cares and you shouldn't either. It's really getting on my nerves.

If you are really that butt hurt over media and others saying LeBron is the GOAT, you really need professional help. It's basketball. It's not that serious, man. Are you really losing sleep over this? Please get help.

[Trollsmasher]

https://i.postimg.cc/Wzrh9SnN/tenor-16.gif

[3ball]

I have Bran 15-20, but I don't even feel good about that because he's manufactured.

If every player was allowed to stiff arm, shoulder spear, travel, and team hop to form super teams whenever his help wasn't enough for his liking, then how many players would be ahead of him?

Impossible to know.
exactly, the guy mostly loses regardless of cast (3-super teams and 1 seeds) or comp (losing record to 3 different teams - spurs/mavs/warriors, including record losses, sweeps and goat chokes)
.

[RRR3]

3ball,

I legit have OCD.


And even I think your obsession is ridiculous.

[3ball]

I legit have OCD


Good, obsess on this then..

talent can't be the only variable in the equation for a championship... there must be other factors like teamwork and brand/identity development...

so while lebron didn't break any rule by forming super-teams/instant favorites in a weak conference, he skipped a vital part of being a great player, which is developing teamwork and adjusting to teammates and adjusting your game - he simply skipped these steps and acquired enough talent to guarantee a modest victory frequency regardless of what approach or teamwork was employed.

obviously, this team-hopping and talent-based winning/instant favorite status can't be compared to what MJ had to do (building favorite status over many years via teammate/brand development).. team-hopping obviously isn't as good and doesn't require as much basketball ability (the aforementioned teamwork, adjustments to teammates, learning/executing the best brand, perseverance, etc).. he sought talent-based winning, which is inferior to talent and teamwork-building, learning/executing the best brand, etc.

ultimately, Lebron's need to team-hop stems from a non-developmemtal style that turns teammates into spot-up shooters, thus preventing teammate/team development and necessitating ready-made favorites..

the ball-dominator/floor general approach generates great stats for ball-handlers like Lebron, cp3 or nash, but the team is much worse when they to use the floor general approach with a much weaker floor general, like when lebron is out or hurt.. this dynamic can inflate the on-off numbers of floor generals and their impact on championship odds, particularly considering that the floor general approach doesn't yield a championship ceiling (at least not without the best big in the game)






And even I think your obsession is ridiculous.



Lebron's collusions for super-teams in a weak conference meant he didn't have to do as much to win the conference:


PPG, APG, FG% and GameScore in Eastern Conference Playoffs


2007 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2007/#14-29-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 25.8.. 8.3.. 43.4%.. 22.2 gmsc
2011 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2011/#72-86-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 26.0.. 5.5.. 46.0%.. 21.7 gmsc
2012 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2012/#93-110-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 30.8.. 5.1.. 50.8%.. 24.3 gmsc
2013 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2013/#116-131-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 26.2.. 6.4.. 51.4%.. 21.9 gmsc
2014 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2014/#139-153-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 27.1.. 5.0.. 56.2%.. 22.7 gmsc
2015 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2015/#159-172-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 27.6.. 8.3.. 42.8%.. 20.6 gmsc
2016 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2016/#179-192-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 24.6.. 7.0.. 54.6%.. 21.8 gmsc

1991 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1991/#54-65-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 31.1.. 7.1.. 51.0%.. 26.6 gmsc
1992 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1992/#71-86-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 34.0.. 5.5.. 48.9%.. 24.8 gmsc
1993 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1993/#93-105-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 32.8.. 5.8.. 45.6%.. 24.6 gmsc
1996 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1996/#122-133-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 32.3.. 4.1.. 47.9%.. 23.7 gmsc
1997 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1997/#140-152-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 30.5.. 4.2.. 45.6%.. 21.7 gmsc
1998 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1998/#159-173-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 31.9.. 4.0.. 47.8%.. 22.5 gmsc

[NBAGOAT]

the only interesting discussion in this thread is this dirk one. We can all laugh at 3ball after his terrible all time list, 15 year olds have better ones.

I think prime dirk would do fairly well in miami but it's not a slam dunk even in the east. Miami has to completely overhaul their defensive system with dirk at the 4 instead of lebron and likely quite a bit worse on that end outside of 2014. Offensively always nice to have dirk and he complements wade nicely but idk if they're the best offense of all time with wade aging.

It's easy to say yes for 11(but weird hypothetical because mavs dont make the finals anymore and also the east is good that year). Are we sure about 12 or 13? i'm assuming they lose in 14 one first round series doesnt mean that much.

[3ball]

the only interesting discussion in this thread is this dirk one. We can all laugh at 3ball after his terrible all time list, 15 year olds have better ones.

I think prime dirk would do fairly well in miami but it's not a slam dunk even in the east. Miami has to completely overhaul their defensive system with dirk at the 4 instead of lebron and likely quite a bit worse on that end outside of 2014. Offensively always nice to have dirk and he complements wade nicely but idk if they're the best offense of all time with wade aging.

It's easy to say yes for 11(but weird hypothetical because mavs dont make the finals anymore and also the east is good that year). Are we sure about 12 or 13? i'm assuming they lose in 14 one first round series doesnt mean that much.
We should assume that if Dirk can take the 14' Spurs to 7 games with a garbage, 8-seeded cast, then he would easily win with 2-seeded, 3 HOF, defending champion cast that beat the same Spurs the prior year..

And Dirk wouldn't necessarily need to be that good in Lebron's shoes because Lebron was a net negative in the 2013 Finals, including 16 on 39% thru 3 games while his all-time cast fought off a 3-0 deficit (essentially a repeat of 2011 until Ray Allen saved him to force Game 7).

So you're dead wrong - Dirk wins 2011 obviously; then he easily wins 2012-2014 since Lebron wasn't particularly good in 2013 and 2014.





the only interesting discussion in this thread is this dirk one.


The previous response above was all facts or substantiated theory, and here's another likely scenario - Wade wouldn't need to work so hard to play alongside Dirk like he did Lebron.. Lebron wore Wade out by not letting him have the ball as much and get assists (wade's assists cratered alongside Lebron), and instead forced Wade into tedious off-ball work, which robbed him of his longevity while Lebron lazed around on-ball..

Wade was infact lights-out in the 14' ECF against a far better defense (#1 Indiana) than the old Spurs he faced in the Finals.. But Lebron's style wore Wade out, whereas he'd get to be the lazy ball-dominator alongside Dirk, and while Dirk bangs down low and runs off-ball.. Lebron also only scored 22.8 ppg in the 14' ECF, so Wade had to carry a bigger scoring burden (% of team points) than a lot of 32-year old 2nd options are used to.

[LAmbruh]

https://i.postimg.cc/Wzrh9SnN/tenor-16.gif

[Sportal]

Tf is this thread lmao 3ball.

[NBAGOAT]

We can assume that if Dirk can take the 14' Spurs to 7 games with a garbage, 8-seeded cast, then he would easily win with 2-seeded, 3 HOF, champion cast that beat the same Spurs the prior year..

And Dirk wouldn't necessarily need to be that good in Lebron's shoes because Lebron was a net negative in the 2013 Finals, including 16 on 39% thru 3 games while his all-time cast fought off a 3-0 deficit (essentially a repeat of 2011 until Ray Allen saved him to force Game 7).

So you're dead wrong - Dirk wins 2011 obviously; then he easily wins 2012-2014 since Lebron wasn't particularly good in 2013 and 2014.

The above are facts or substantiated theory, and here's another likely scenario - Wade wouldn't need to work so hard to play alongside Dirk like he did Lebron.. Lebron wore Wade out by not letting him have the ball as much and get assists (wade's assists cratered alongside Lebron), and instead forced Wade into tedious off-ball work, which robbed him of his longevity while Lebron lazed around on-ball..

Wade was infact lights-out in the 14' ECF against a far better defense (#1 Indiana) than the old Spurs he faced in the Finals.. But Lebron's style wore Wade out, whereas he'd get to be the lazy ball-dominator alongside Dirk, and while Dirk bangs down low and runs off-ball.. Lebron also only scored 22.8 ppg in the 14' ECF, so Wade had to carry a bigger scoring burden (% of team points) than a lot of 32-year old 2nd options are used to.

again as you do often with role players overlook defense. Miami's scrambling pressure defense is not possible with dirk at the 4. I didnt say the heat wouldnt make the finals in 14, i doubt they beat sa.

Continue using the faulty logic he took the spurs to 7 games with the mavs, he automatically win. It can be used for hundreds of examples. One of the main problems is teams can play at different levels from series to series just because of variance.

Reggie Miller took the magic to 7 in 95 with a worse roster than jordan had in 95 that lost to the magic in 6. He did the same in 98 taking the bulls to 7 with a worse roster than malone in 98. There was no way he was a better player than either those years or would win with those rosters just because he did better in one playoff series with a worse team.

[stalkerforlife]

Good, obsess on this then..

talent can't be the only variable in the equation for a championship... there must be other factors like teamwork and brand/identity development...

so while lebron didn't break any rule by forming super-teams/instant favorites in a weak conference, he skipped a vital part of being a great player, which is developing teamwork and adjusting to teammates and adjusting your game - he simply skipped these steps and acquired enough talent to guarantee a modest victory frequency regardless of what approach or teamwork was employed.

obviously, this team-hopping and talent-based winning/instant favorite status can't be compared to what MJ had to do (building favorite status over many years via teammate/brand development).. team-hopping obviously isn't as good and doesn't require as much basketball ability (the aforementioned teamwork, adjustments to teammates, learning/executing the best brand, perseverance, etc).. he sought talent-based winning, which is inferior to talent and teamwork-building, learning/executing the best brand, etc.

ultimately, Lebron's need to team-hop stems from a non-developmemtal style that turns teammates into spot-up shooters, thus preventing teammate/team development and necessitating ready-made favorites..

the ball-dominator/floor general approach generates great stats for ball-handlers like Lebron, cp3 or nash, but the team is much worse when they to use the floor general approach with a much weaker floor general, like when lebron is out or hurt.. this dynamic can inflate the on-off numbers of floor generals and their impact on championship odds, particularly considering that the floor general approach doesn't yield a championship ceiling (at least not without the best big in the game)





Lebron's collusions for super-teams in a weak conference meant he didn't have to do as much to win the conference:


PPG, APG, FG% and GameScore in Eastern Conference Playoffs


2007 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2007/#14-29-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 25.8.. 8.3.. 43.4%.. 22.2 gmsc
2011 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2011/#72-86-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 26.0.. 5.5.. 46.0%.. 21.7 gmsc
2012 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2012/#93-110-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 30.8.. 5.1.. 50.8%.. 24.3 gmsc
2013 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2013/#116-131-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 26.2.. 6.4.. 51.4%.. 21.9 gmsc
2014 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2014/#139-153-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 27.1.. 5.0.. 56.2%.. 22.7 gmsc
2015 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2015/#159-172-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 27.6.. 8.3.. 42.8%.. 20.6 gmsc
2016 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2016/#179-192-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 24.6.. 7.0.. 54.6%.. 21.8 gmsc

1991 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1991/#54-65-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 31.1.. 7.1.. 51.0%.. 26.6 gmsc
1992 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1992/#71-86-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 34.0.. 5.5.. 48.9%.. 24.8 gmsc
1993 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1993/#93-105-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 32.8.. 5.8.. 45.6%.. 24.6 gmsc
1996 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1996/#122-133-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 32.3.. 4.1.. 47.9%.. 23.7 gmsc
1997 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1997/#140-152-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 30.5.. 4.2.. 45.6%.. 21.7 gmsc
1998 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1998/#159-173-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 31.9.. 4.0.. 47.8%.. 22.5 gmsc

School is in session.

[ShawkFactory]

We should assume that if Dirk can take the 14' Spurs to 7 games with a garbage, 8-seeded cast, then he would easily win with 2-seeded, 3 HOF, defending champion cast that beat the same Spurs the prior year...
If you know anything about basketball you

[DMAVS41]

again as you do often with role players overlook defense. Miami's scrambling pressure defense is not possible with dirk at the 4. I didnt say the heat wouldnt make the finals in 14, i doubt they beat sa.

Continue using the faulty logic he took the spurs to 7 games with the mavs, he automatically win. It can be used for hundreds of examples. One of the main problems is teams can play at different levels from series to series just because of variance.

Reggie Miller took the magic to 7 in 95 with a worse roster than jordan had in 95 that lost to the magic in 6. He did the same in 98 taking the bulls to 7 with a worse roster than malone in 98. There was no way he was a better player than either those years or would win with those rosters just because he did better in one playoff series with a worse team.

The "fill in the blank" took them to 7 argument is flawed...this has been pointed out time and time again.

With the Dirk stuff...I think what people actually mean is how would "player X" do with a similar level supporting cast.

For example, Dirk/Love makes no sense and that team would be far worse.

However, Dirk/Kyrie and even Dirk/Wade might have a higher ceiling as pairings because of non-overlapping skillsets...etc.

It is silly to just give out 5 titles the way some are in this thread...even to all-time great players, but it is also silly to pretend like most all-time greats wouldn't rack up finals appearances playing on loaded teams against historically weak competition.

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory]If you know anything about basketball you

[NBAGOAT]

The "fill in the blank" took them to 7 argument is flawed...this has been pointed out time and time again.

With the Dirk stuff...I think what people actually mean is how would "player X" do with a similar level supporting cast.

For example, Dirk/Love makes no sense and that team would be far worse.

However, Dirk/Kyrie and even Dirk/Wade might have a higher ceiling as pairings because of non-overlapping skillsets...etc.

It is silly to just give out 5 titles the way some are in this thread...even to all-time great players, but it is also silly to pretend like most all-time greats wouldn't rack up finals appearances playing on loaded teams against historically weak competition.

mostly agreed. not sure who would be an ok replacement wing for bosh as a third guy however

[RRR3]

See if he'll agree to this.

We assume Lebron wins the title in place of 08 Kobe because Lebron took the Celtics to 7 games with a garbage cast compared to Kobe's...he could easily win with the GOAT coach and a stud first ballot HOF as the favorite in the series.

Lebron wins in 08...right 3ball?
He

[3ball]

He’ll say LeBron was bad and carried by his supporting cast.
You're learning the facts and historical record, kudos... :applause:

Lebron averaged 26 on 35% in that series, but his team's goat-level defense held the Celtics below their regular season offensive level and turned the series into an ugly, defensive war.. MJ never had defensive help of that caliber that allowed him to shit the bed so severely and still almost beat an all-time assemblage of talent

[DMAVS41]

You're learning the facts and historical record, kudos... :applause:

Lebron averaged 26 on 35% in that series, but his team's goat-level defense held the Celtics below their regular season offensive level and turned the series into an ugly, defensive war.. MJ never had defensive help of that caliber that allowed him to shit the bed so severely and still almost beat an all-time assemblage of talent

The 08 Cavs had the 11th best defense in the league.

:roll:

[3ball]

The 08 Cavs had the 11th best defense in the league.

:roll:
they played goat-level defense in that series, which is why they nearly won despite woat-level offense from Lebron...

and they normally had top 5 defenses in the regular season during that time period - one off-year doesn't mean they didn't have great defense anymore than an off-year from the 90's Bulls offensively didn't mean they weren't a goat offensive team.

again, those Cavs held the Celtics below their regular season offensive level and turned the series into an ugly, defensive war - MJ never had defensive help of that caliber that allowed him to shit the bed so severely and still almost beat an all-time assemblage of talent

[RRR3]

The 08 Cavs had the 11th best defense in the league.

:roll:
:roll:

[NBAGOAT]

they played goat-level defense in that series, which is why they nearly won despite woat-level offense from Lebron...

and they normally had top 5 defenses in the regular season during that time period - one off-year doesn't mean they didn't have great defense anymore than an off-year from the 90's Bulls offensively didn't mean they weren't a goat offensive team.

again, those Cavs held the Celtics below their regular season offensive level and turned the series into an ugly, defensive war - MJ never had defensive help of that caliber that allowed him to shit the bed so severely and still almost beat an all-time assemblage of talent


The cavs held the celtics 9.2 below their rs ortg.

the bulls held the 97 jazz 10pts below their rs ortg and the 98 jazz 16.5pts below their rs ortg.

How has MJ never had defensive help of that caliber?

[DMAVS41]

they played goat-level defense in that series, which is why they nearly won despite woat-level offense from Lebron...

and they normally had top 5 defenses in the regular season during that time period - one off-year doesn't mean they didn't have great defense anymore than an off-year from the 90's Bulls offensively didn't mean they weren't a goat offensive team.

again, those Cavs held the Celtics below their regular season offensive level and turned the series into an ugly, defensive war - MJ never had defensive help of that caliber that allowed him to shit the bed so severely and still almost beat an all-time assemblage of talent


They had the 11th best defense and an expected record of 40-42.

In addition, they were -8.5 points per 100 possessions on the year without Lebron on the court...while they were +2.4 with him...

Try again clown.

Also, is Lebron not part of the defense? I mean, he did play nearly every minute of the series.

Let me guess...it was Delonte and Wally providing that GOAT defense...right?

[RRR3]

They had the 11th best defense and an expected record of 40-42.

In addition, they were -8.5 points per 100 possessions on the year without Lebron on the court...while they were +2.4 with him...

Try again clown.

Also, is Lebron not part of the defense? I mean, he did play nearly every minute of the series.

Let me guess...it was Delonte and Wally providing that GOAT defense...right?
They were also -19.0 with LeBron off the court in the playoffs and +5.6 with him on. He was getting “carried” doe.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/EasyEdibleAustraliankelpie-size_restricted.gif

talent can't be the only variable in the equation for a championship... there must be other factors like teamwork and brand/identity development...

so while lebron didn't break any rule by forming super-teams/instant favorites in a weak conference, he skipped a vital part of being a great player, which is developing teamwork and adjusting to teammates and adjusting your game - he simply skipped these steps and acquired enough talent to guarantee a modest victory frequency regardless of what approach or teamwork was employed.

obviously, this team-hopping and talent-based winning/instant favorite status can't be compared to what MJ had to do (building favorite status over many years via teammate/brand development).. team-hopping obviously isn't as good and doesn't require as much basketball ability (the aforementioned teamwork, adjustments to teammates, learning/executing the best brand, perseverance, etc).. he sought talent-based winning, which is inferior to talent and teamwork-building, learning/executing the best brand, etc.

ultimately, Lebron's need to team-hop stems from a non-developmemtal style that turns teammates into spot-up shooters, thus preventing teammate/team development and necessitating ready-made favorites..

the ball-dominator/floor general approach generates great stats for ball-handlers like Lebron, cp3 or nash, but the team is much worse when they to use the floor general approach with a much weaker floor general, like when lebron is out or hurt.. this dynamic can inflate the on-off numbers of floor generals and their impact on championship odds, particularly considering that the floor general approach doesn't yield a championship ceiling (at least not without the best big in the game)





Lebron's collusions for super-teams in a weak conference meant he didn't have to do as much to win the conference:


PPG, APG, FG% and GameScore in Eastern Conference Playoffs


2007 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2007/#14-29-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 25.8.. 8.3.. 43.4%.. 22.2 gmsc
2011 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2011/#72-86-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 26.0.. 5.5.. 46.0%.. 21.7 gmsc
2012 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2012/#93-110-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 30.8.. 5.1.. 50.8%.. 24.3 gmsc
2013 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2013/#116-131-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 26.2.. 6.4.. 51.4%.. 21.9 gmsc
2014 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2014/#139-153-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 27.1.. 5.0.. 56.2%.. 22.7 gmsc
2015 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2015/#159-172-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 27.6.. 8.3.. 42.8%.. 20.6 gmsc
2016 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2016/#179-192-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 24.6.. 7.0.. 54.6%.. 21.8 gmsc

1991 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1991/#54-65-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 31.1.. 7.1.. 51.0%.. 26.6 gmsc
1992 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1992/#71-86-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 34.0.. 5.5.. 48.9%.. 24.8 gmsc
1993 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1993/#93-105-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 32.8.. 5.8.. 45.6%.. 24.6 gmsc
1996 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1996/#122-133-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 32.3.. 4.1.. 47.9%.. 23.7 gmsc
1997 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1997/#140-152-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 30.5.. 4.2.. 45.6%.. 21.7 gmsc
1998 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1998/#159-173-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)... 31.9.. 4.0.. 47.8%.. 22.5 gmsc

Put the meth down.

[3ball]

Put the meth down.
You wish... Lebron started the trend towards talent-based winning, aka team-hopping for instant favorite status, rather than building teamwork and team ability over several years..

The latter requires superior basketball ability, i.e. adjusting to teammates, learning/executing the best brand and teamwork... while the former (team-hopping) just requires throwing a bunch of guys out there to play pickup brand of ball or basic 1 ball-dominator/4-shooter brand and win off sheer talent.. that doesn't require as much basketball skill, and is therefore inferior, and confirmed by winning far less, aka 3/9

[DMAVS41]

You wish... Lebron started the trend towards talent-based winning,

So true.

Those teams in the 80's that were winning titles didn't have a lot of talent.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I actually disagree. I don't think 01 Dirk should be known as prime Dirk...he improved a lot after 01.

Again, Lebron was 26 when he joined the Heat. You have to compare like with like.

But, again, you aren't interested in reality...which is abundantly clear.

:cheers:
In 02 he averaged 23. In 03 he averaged 25, Those are his two highest-rebound seasons with his career high in ppg at 26.6. He was in his prime. This is all factual information, "reality." Sorry if it hurt your feelings.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You wish... Lebron started the trend towards talent-based winning, aka team-hopping for instant favorite status, rather than building teamwork and team ability over several years..

The latter requires superior basketball ability, i.e. adjusting to teammates, learning/executing the best brand and teamwork... while the former (team-hopping) just requires throwing a bunch of guys out there to play pickup brand of ball or basic 1 ball-dominator/4-shooter brand and win off sheer talent.. that doesn't require as much basketball skill, and is therefore inferior, and confirmed by winning far less, aka 3/9

If not drugs you're a couple posts away from a psych ward.

Nobody will challenge you on the "team hopper" stuff because...well, its probably true. Those titles Lebron did win though he put in work. And had to because there's more to the game than what the back of your jersey says. Wade and Bosh from 2010 and 2011 weren't the same players from 2012-2014. Period.

Why you keep comparing CP3 and Nash with Lebron, a far better scorer than the two, I don't know. Then again I'd have to understand batshit crazy.

[greymatter]

What was "organic" about Phil Jackson getting Rodman for basically nothing?

Ordan wouldn't have won another title if not for the GOAT personality manager working his magic to convince him and Pip to let bygones be bygones and give Rodman a chance.

[DMAVS41]

In 02 he averaged 23. In 03 he averaged 25, Those are his two highest-rebound seasons with his career high in ppg at 26.6. He was in his prime. This is all factual information, "reality." Sorry if it hurt your feelings.

I said 01...learn to read.

02 would be what I consider the start of his prime.

Again though...you aren't interested in reality.

Try harder next time...or just don't post.

[knicksman]

Since you like stats so much, all the advance stats show LeBron isn't overrated. Quit slobbing on Jordan. He doesn't know who you are and never will. Stop defending him. The GOAT is subjective. It's not that damn serious. I have Wilt and MJ as my GOAT. Do I get a prize for it? No. It's just an opinion. Spend your time doing something else. I am tired of coming here reading your recycled threads of threats to Jordan. No one cares and you shouldn't either. It's really getting on my nerves.

If you are really that butt hurt over media and others saying LeBron is the GOAT, you really need professional help. It's basketball. It's not that serious, man. Are you really losing sleep over this? Please get help.

But clutch stats says lebron is overrated. Kobe outperforms him in crunch time.

[Gil Renard]

But clutch stats says lebron is overrated. Kobe outperforms him in crunch time.


https://i.postimg.cc/Jnd16J6V/Bron-gw-post.jpg

:roll:

Go to bed you low IQ fakkit.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I said 01...learn to read.

02 would be what I consider the start of his prime.

Again though...you aren't interested in reality.

Try harder next time...or just don't post. And I said part of his prime. You're way too sensitive. It's clouding your comprehension.

[knicksman]

https://i.postimg.cc/Jnd16J6V/Bron-gw-post.jpg

:roll:

Go to bed you low IQ fakkit.

Aw. this loser really wants my attention. sad

[Gil Renard]

Aw. this loser really wants my attention. sad

Address my post you 70 IQ nitwit. You said clutch stats proves Kobe outperforms Lebron in crunch time. I just proved you wrong.

[knicksman]

Address my post you 70 IQ nitwit. You said clutch stats proves Kobe outperforms Lebron in crunch time. I just proved you wrong.

Sorry but losers dont deserve my reply so have a good day

[DMAVS41]

And I said part of his prime. You're way too sensitive. It's clouding your comprehension.

And I explained why it was misleading.

Has nothing to do with being sensitive.

It is lazy and surface-level analysis to compare a 22 year old Dirk in the playoffs for the first time playing against much harder competition over the years you are talking about, with a worse team...to a 26 year old Lebron playing in the East.

I'm not sure why you can't just admit that it was an awful argument on your part. Talk about sensitive...

[Real Men Wear Green]

And I explained why it was misleading.

Has nothing to do with being sensitive.

It is lazy and surface-level analysis to compare a 22 year old Dirk in the playoffs for the first time playing against much harder competition over the years you are talking about, with a worse team...to a 26 year old Lebron playing in the East.

I'm not sure why you can't just admit that it was an awful argument on your part. Talk about sensitive...
I just stated a fact. You would be the one getting upset and crying that I should retract a true statement. Nowitzki played a number of years in his prime with two other stars, one of whom had 2 MVP awards in his future. All of that is true. You br9ing upset is your problem, not mine.

[DMAVS41]

I just stated a fact. You would be the one getting upset and crying that I should retract a true statement. Nowitzki played a number of years in his prime with two other stars, one of whom had 2 MVP awards in his future. All of that is true. You br9ing upset is your problem, not mine.

This is why I said it was, and I quote, "a bit misleading"...

Just stop. You are a joke.

You are comparing a 22 year old who had never made the playoffs before...playing a much harder conference...to a 26 year old playing against historically weak competition.

It makes no sense, at all. So, instead of just admitting that you probably didn't realize how little Nash/Dirk played together and at what age for Dirk...you just keep arguing for something that you'd have to be a straight up idiot to think proves your point.

Jesus man...how did Lebron do at age 22 against the Spurs?

[AirTupac]

The irony of Realmen calling someone sensitive when the guy bans people for roasting the Celtics :oldlol:

[Real Men Wear Green]

This is why I said it was, and I quote, "a bit misleading"...

Just stop. You are a joke.

You are comparing a 22 year old who had never made the playoffs before...playing a much harder conference...to a 26 year old playing against historically weak competition.

It makes no sense, at all. So, instead of just admitting that you probably didn't realize how little Nash/Dirk played together and at what age for Dirk...you just keep arguing for something that you'd have to be a straight up idiot to think proves your point.

Jesus man...how did Lebron do at age 22 against the Spurs?
I am not just talking about him at 22. Part of his primee does not exclusively mean the age of 22. Your entire argument is just your own dumb misunderstanding. Did I not mention his 25 ppg and 23 ppg seasons?

[Gil Renard]

Sorry but losers dont deserve my reply so have a good day

So you got no response for that, huh? :lol

We win again, thanks for playing. :rockon:

[DMAVS41]

I am not just talking about him at 22. Part of his primee does not exclusively mean the age of 22. Your entire argument is just your own dumb misunderstanding. Did I not mention his 25 ppg and 23 ppg seasons?

Hahaha....

You are starting at age 22...before anyone would consider his prime...his first year in the playoffs...to hold a player accountable for not making the finals in those circumstances is just beyond dumb.

So that year is absolutely useless.

Then you are referencing his first 3 prime years on two good teams with no chance to win...and one great team with a real chance to win...as has all been explained to you.

All of that misses the point anyway...as Lebron was 26 in his first year in Miami...in year 8 of his career.

So this is what you are doing...you are comparing Lebron from age 26-33 and only talking about Dirk from age 22-25.

Even worse, you mentioned nothing about Lebron having better help most of those years and no mention of the historically weak competition in the East.

Again, it is a shit argument that only an idiot would make.

:cheers:

Lastly, I ask again...what happened to Lebron against the Spurs in 07? He was in his prime according to your logic and should be held accountable and what he did should be used as solid evidence for what he would do in the future. What happened?

[tpols]

I said 01...learn to read.

02 would be what I consider the start of his prime.

Again though...you aren't interested in reality.

Try harder next time...or just don't post.


how can you be on both sides of the same argument at once lmao?

you know dirk would kill it with dwayne wade. The butterfly effect would be so tremendous.

But you can only literally transpose to not have an outlier opinion.

Let your ego go, embrace the truth.

[DMAVS41]

how can you be on both sides of the same argument at once lmao?

you know dirk would kill it with dwayne wade. The butterfly effect would be so tremendous.

But you can only literally transpose to not have an outlier opinion.

Let your ego go, embrace the truth.

For starters, because it isn't.

Thinking an all-time great would make a lot of finals is not the same thing as thinking an all-time great is "for sure" winning more than 3 titles during that same time.

What is hard to understand? Seriously...explain what you can't grasp about that?

Tell me how that is being on different sides of the same argument.

[3ball]

.
Zydrunas has multiple seasons with over 2.3 blocks and Varejao was all-defense, while the anchor of small-ball was Bosh (shown below) (https://www.si.com/nba/point-forward/2013/12/18/court-vision-chris-bosh-miami-heat-defense) - all three compare to Grant defensively


https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/10/16/4831376/chris-bosh-video-breakdown-blitz-miami-heat

http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/7964/chris-bosh-no-longer-just-a-one-way-player

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/chris-bosh-doesnt-block-shots-but-who-cares/

https://www.si.com/nba/point-forward/2013/12/18/court-vision-chris-bosh-miami-heat-defense

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/breakdown-chris-bosh-gives-dominating-defensive-performance/

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nba/miami-heat/article1963331.html

[3ball]

.

From SB Nation (https://www.sbnation.com/2013/6/19/4444164/lebron-james-dwyane-wade-heat-spurs-nba-finals-game-6) in 2013 Finals (after game 6):

O-Rtg/D-Rtg with LBJ/Wade: 100.8/112.7 ... O-Rtg/D-Rtg with LBJ/NO Wade: 131.7/89.5

"the Spurs were using each Wade and Lebron's so-so perimeter shooting against them, cheating off of one to prevent the other from doing what he wants to do"

https://www.sbnation.com/2013/6/19/4444164/lebron-james-dwyane-wade-heat-spurs-nba-finals-game-6



The Spurs were cheating off Lebron to help on Wade and vice-versa, thus encouraging them to pass to each other for spot-ups, which the Spurs perceived both to be weak at.. :eek:

So the lack of optimal fit between Lebron and Wade was a real thing, proven by the eye test and many stats.. Wade's assists also cratered alongside Lebron.
.

[3ball]

And had to because there's more to the game than what the back of your jersey says.

Wade and Bosh from 2010 and 2011 weren't the same players from 2012-2014. Period.


Bosh was 29 years old in 2014, so there's no reason he wasn't the same player as previous years - his defensive (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13906736&postcount=137) performance proves he was infact the same player, while his multi-dimensional offensive reduction under lebron-ball was a primary reason the Heat didn't live up to their original expectations.

Wade wasn't the same player in 2013 or 2014, but he was only reduced to prime Pippen numbers (20/5/5 on 53% in 13/14 regular seasons... 20/5/5 on 48% in 2013 Finals and 2014 ECF... and he was generally allowed to coast in EC playoffs)

Furthermore, Wade was reduced by a suboptimal fit with Lebron, where the Heat's ORtg cratered when both were on the floor, as shown by SB Nation during the 2013 Finals (see previous post above (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13906738&postcount=138)) - the Spurs were cheating off Lebron to help on Wade and vice-versa, thus encouraging them to pass to each other for spot-ups, which the Spurs perceived both to be weak at.





The titles Lebron did win though he put in work.


Not true - his teammates avoided an 0-3 deficit in the 2013 Finals while Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games, and 23 on 43% thru 6 - it was 2011 all over again, but Ray Allen saved him this time.. Lebron was a net negative for the series (heat lost with him on the floor)





Why you keep comparing CP3 and Nash with Lebron, a far better scorer than the two


Lebron had underwhelming results just like CP3 and Nash until he team-hopped - you're forgetting that.

So even though he scores better, he still employs the same suboptimal style that turns teammates into spot-up shooters and therefore needs ready-made stars/extra talent to win.. He team-hopped to acquire these stars, and they didn't.. it's that simple... before he team-hopped, he was just like them.. suboptimal style = suboptimal results, regardless of the star or his cast





Nobody will challenge you on the "team hopper" stuff because...well, its probably true.


So why would you defend Lebron then?

If you agree that it's easier to team-hop for instant favorite status rather than develop favorite status, then why defend Lebron by saying he still brought it (even though he wasn't that good in the 2013 Finals), or that his teammates were lesser (Bosh wasn't, and reduced-Wade still produced like prime Pippen despite a suboptimal fit with Lebron)??





If not drugs you're a couple posts away from a psych ward.


No, you simply misperceive historical and current events, so you think my correct perceptions and corrections of yours are "crazy"

I hope my previous explanations above helped
.

[Shooter]

You know how I know you're trolling? You have Kobe above Duncan, Kareem, Russell, LeBron & Hakeem. No objective person would put him above ALL of those guys.

You are a secret Kobe fan and it's been the same shit forever and a day.

I'm never going to forget the time that you slipped up and said Kobe would destroy MJ 1 on 1 because you were on the wrong account, and then laughed about it when I called you out.

You're a troll, and everyone that argues with you as if you are being serious... well, they're a bunch of dumbasses.

Bodied