1998 Finals win just as impressive as 2016

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Not just as impressive; I would submit 1998 was much more Herculean than 2016.
Take a step back and here's some facts, comparing Lebron's greatest achievement vs. just another one of Michael's.


Fact:
1998 Jazz had won 62 games, only 11 off the regular season mark of the 2016 Warriors.
Jordan was 35 years / 4 months old during the series. Lebron was 31.5.
Jordan had already won 5 of the last 7 championships.
The 1998 Bulls beat the Jazz at full strength, which includes:
The previous year's MVP (Malone)
2nd all time leading scorer in NBA History (Malone)
All time steals leader to this day (Stockton)
All time assists leader to this day (Stockton)
This 1998 Utah Jazz club *swept* the 1998 Lakers with Shaq and Kobe, who would go on to ring their first just 2 years later. Late 90's Jazz were no joke.



Cavs: Played a team that had lost 6 other playoff games already to that point. Did not have Durant in June 2016, Curry was injured, Green suspended for Game 5, Bogut injured in Game 5-7 (after 2nd half injury in game 5). So not exactly full strength here.


Last minute of the series:
Kyrie (not Lebron) hit the game winning shot. Kyrie had 27 PPG for the series; Michael had to score 15 more than his 2nd best player for this series. Lebron had 1/2 of a good block on Iggy, but had JR Smith not caused Iggy to change his shot that never would have happened. You know it and I know it.



Last minute of the 1998 Series:
Pippen had 8 pts (2nd best Bull) for the entire game. Michael had 45. Won the steal DOWN a point, hit the shot to win the championship. Game tying, go ahead, or winning shot again in the finals. Lebron is 0-6 in the Finals trying to do this.


Couple other points here:


Historically teams that face each other multiple years in the finals really get the losing team's best efforts the next year.
See:

1989 Pistons swept the Lakers (who were undefeated in the '89 playoffs until the finals) after the Pistons lost a close one in '88.

2014 Spurs: Beat the Heat by a record margin in 2014 after losing a close one the year before.


Lastly, don't want to hear anything about "Lebron had won one for a team that had never won before". The Bulls hadn't won anything either before Michael arrived and haven't won anything since.

Michael, at an age older than Lebron is now, basically beat a motivated 62 win team with 2 all time greats mostly by himself. That's why 1998 impressed me more than the 2016 "Co-MVP" Lebron/Kyrie tandem beating the not at full strength Warriors.

[Rico2016]

1998 Jazz: 9-7
2016 Warriors: 15-9

[NBAGOAT]

you serious with only 11 games :lol. Utah was great no doubt but 11 games is usually difference between a random first round playoff team and a title contender; it's massive

[ShawkFactory]

An impressive win no doubt.

But when it comes down to it...Stockton was 35 as well. Malone was 34.

This was not a peak version of these guys that Jordan beat.

It honestly says something more about the league at the time. Which, I don

[Gil Renard]

:roll:

Okay 3balt

[Akeem34TheDream]

1998 Jazz had won 62 games, only 11 off the regular season mark of the 2016 Warriors.

Do people even read what they write lmao? Only 11 lol

[greymatter]

Do people even read what they write lmao? Only 11 lol

Ordan's career 3pt shooting from the non-shortened line is 29.7%. Lebron's 34.4% is only 15.8% higher.

It's not much. Practically the same!11one!

[superduper]

"It's a bit too much stats, nobody can compare to Jordan"

[Cleverness]

Jordan with the series-winning steal and GW for 6/6

Silver with the series-shifting BSuspension and injuries to follow


Jordan's was more predictable for the GOAT, but Silver's was more impactful, since it lead to KD joining the Warriors to team up against Silver... this created the greatest dynasty since the Spurs.

Dynasties... GOAT Jordan's Bulls, Kobe/Shaq's Lakers, Tim Duncan's Spurs, and then Steph Curry's Warriors.

Will Anthony Davis' Lakers be next? Time will tell.

[ImKobe]

He also beat a 62-win Suns team with peak Barkley, a 64-win Sonics team with peak GP/Kemp and a 64-win Jazz team.

The '98 Jazz went 11 - 3 through the Western Conference Playoffs that featured the Hakeem/Drexler/Barkley Rockets, the Duncan/Robinson Spurs and the 4 all-star Lakers with prime Shaq.

The 2016 Warriors had a hobbled Curry and almost lost to a 55-win OKC squad, the Jazz looked a lot more dominant going into the '98 Finals. All that and Green getting suspended with Bogut and Iggy having injuries makes Jordan's 1998 Finals a lot more impressive, especially since Pippen was playing hurt and looked finished in Game 6.

[ImKobe]

Ordan's career 3pt shooting from the non-shortened line is 29.7%. Lebron's 34.4% is only 15.8% higher.

It's not much. Practically the same!11one!

Such a misleading stat, most of those are just Jordan taking half-court buzzer-beaters since he rarely shot 3s by design. Data suggests that Jordan was a good 3-point shooter when he did actually shoot them with volume.

He only attempted more than 1.5 threes per game in 5 seasons, he shot 35.2% on 2.9 3PA in '93 and 37.6% on 3.0 3PA in 1990. He never had a bad 3-point shooting RS when he actually shot a decent amount of 3s on average. He also shot 38.7% on threes for his first 3-Peat on 2.4 3PA with 38.5% on 1.5 3PA in '91, 38.6% on 2.0 3PA in '92 and 38.9% on 3.8 3PA in '93.

Jordan was a GOAT-tier mid-range shooter and one of the better volume FT shooters in league history, he could have easily adapted to this era and shot a good percentage at a decent volume.

[Gil Renard]

Imagine being as dumb as 3balt and ImKobrick :(

[ImKobe]

How many alts do you have, Wheels? I've lost count.

[Gil Renard]

How many alts do you have, Wheels? I've lost count.

Why do you pretend to be a Lakers fan? We all know you

[Shaquille O'Neal]

He also beat a 62-win Suns team with peak Barkley, a 64-win Sonics team with peak GP/Kemp and a 64-win Jazz team.

The '98 Jazz went 11 - 3 through the Western Conference Playoffs that featured the Hakeem/Drexler/Barkley Rockets, the Duncan/Robinson Spurs and the 4 all-star Lakers with prime Shaq.

The 2016 Warriors had a hobbled Curry and almost lost to a 55-win OKC squad, the Jazz looked a lot more dominant going into the '98 Finals. All that and Green getting suspended with Bogut and Iggy having injuries makes Jordan's 1998 Finals a lot more impressive, especially since Pippen was playing hurt and looked finished in Game 6.

Absolutely. Imagine if Lebron got a whopping 8 points from Kyrie in game 7.
For the SERIES: Jordan, 33.5 PPG. 2nd place, Pippen, 15.7 PPG.
2016? Lebron, 29.7 PPG, Kyrie 27.1 PPG. Must have been nice to have a "peer" hit the big shot for you!


33.5 PPG is a hell of a lot more than "11" folks. So which is it? 73 vs. 62 games won regular season gap or 33.5 vs 15.7 PPG gap? You can only pick one.



Moreover, the 2016 Cavs had to beat 44 and 48 win teams in the first 2 rounds.
Chicago had to beat 51 and 58 win teams in the final eastern rounds.


When you factor in the weak 2010's EAST and no handchecking allowed, the gap gets much wider. Much more contact allowed back then - this was when men still played basketball.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Frankly, the reason everyone got all wound up about 2016 is the level of expectation. Lebron failed so often in the Finals that people were shocked he actually won.


We all knew (I was 24 at the time) that Chicago would win again in 1998. Truth be told I rooted against him that series - wanted to see the mailman get one finally.


But GOAT Michael just didn't lose on the biggest stage. Ever.:bowdown:

[Shaquille O'Neal]

So now the clear vote is 1998 >>>> 2016 as far as individual performances, where do some of the other champs rank?


I'm impressed with Philly in '83 sweeping a previous year champion Lakers, as well as the 1989 Pistons doing the same. But these were more team efforts.


I'm talking more individual performances basically making the difference, like in 1998.


Dwayne Wade in 2006?
Jason Terry 2011?
Magic in 1980?


Name some other folks who didn't have a sidekick within a ~2 PPG difference in the finals.

[LAmbruh]

This is one juicy meltdown :lol


10/10

[SouBeachTalents]

‘06 Wade. Outscored Shaq’s fatass 35-14 to win the title :applause:

[Shaquille O'Neal]

This is one juicy meltdown :lol


10/10



How are facts a meltdown?


Are you that impressed that it took the best player from the Timberwolves (Love) plus Kyrie scoring 27.1 PPG to get LBJ "moar help" to win a rigged series in which Bogut didn't play the last 3 games, Curry was hurt and Green suspended for game 5?


Or the GOAT winning in UTAH for his 6th ring with 8 points from Scottie and 45 pts that game?


I know who anyone with a brain would be more impressed by. I welcome an actual discussion; facts speak for themselves. Can you refute anything I've posted here?

[NBAGOAT]

Absolutely. Imagine if Lebron got a whopping 8 points from Kyrie in game 7.
For the SERIES: Jordan, 33.5 PPG. 2nd place, Pippen, 15.7 PPG.
2016? Lebron, 29.7 PPG, Kyrie 27.1 PPG. Must have been nice to have a "peer" hit the big shot for you!


33.5 PPG is a hell of a lot more than "11" folks. So which is it? 73 vs. 62 games won regular season gap or 33.5 vs 15.7 PPG gap? You can only pick one.



Moreover, the 2016 Cavs had to beat 44 and 48 win teams in the first 2 rounds.
Chicago had to beat 51 and 58 win teams in the final eastern rounds.


When you factor in the weak 2010's EAST and no handchecking allowed, the gap gets much wider. Much more contact allowed back then - this was when men still played basketball.

again you're right about the competition like you were with the jazz being great but what the hell kind of support is this :oldlol:. the definition of comparing apples to oranges. why not just compare all 3 rounds to each other it's pretty simple...

Mindblowingly stupid arguments whether you're trolling or serious

[Manny98]

This is either 3balls alt or a 3ball wannabe fanboy, which is it?

[SpaceJam]

Only 11 :roll: :roll: :roll:

Literally the different between the 2001 Lakers and the 2001 Rockets (9th seed), Shaq, you were there you know better