Historical record: MJ considered equal or better defender than Pip every yr except 2

[3ball]

DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender AT THE TIME, and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the NBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s)) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender)

the reason for the revisionist history is simple: when new fans (including media) first heard about MJ's 6 rings, they looked up his roster and didn't see the star-laden cast they expected, or great stats from a sidekick.... so they concluded that Pippen's defense offset the lack of star power or good offensive stats - but this is simply ignorance about what was actually happening at the time

the reality is that the 1st three-peat Bulls were only ranked 7th defensively, so many guys had better defensive help than MJ, including Clyde's Blazers and many of Lebron's teams
.

[1987_Lakers]

Not during the 2nd 3 peat, it was pretty clear Pippen was the better defender at that point.

[Manny98]

They didn't have advanced analytics back then, eye test suggest that MJ was the better defender because he guarded the opposings team best player more often than Pippen and averaged more steals but Pippen was the vastly superior help defender and overall more impactful defender because of his ability to defend multiple positions and his overall length.

Their is a reason why the Bulls remained an elite defense team after MJ retired. It's because they didn't lose there defensive anchor in Pippen

[3ball]

Not during the 2nd 3 peat, it was pretty clear Pippen was the better defender at that point.
mj was a better defender every year except 96' and 97' - see the dpoy voting above

[1987_Lakers]

mj was a better defender every year except 96' and 97' - see the dpoy voting above

That doesn't mean shit, Camby won DPOY the same year Duncan anchored the best defense in the league, Camby was never a better defender than Duncan.

We all know people who vote for these things don't watch enough games to have an honest opinion.

[TheBranStan]

mj was a better defender every year except 96' and 97' - see the dpoy voting above
Hi Jeff.

[SomeBlackDude]

Not during the 2nd 3 peat, it was pretty clear Pippen was the better defender at that point.

pip was out for half a season with back problems in '98. how the hell was he a better defender from his couch? :biggums:

35 yo jordan finished 4th in dpoy that year too (in addition to winning mvp, scoring title, ring #6, fmvp #6, first team o, first team d, and schooling young kobe en route to another all star mvp as icing on the goat cake).

[1987_Lakers]

pip was out for half a season with back problems in '98. how the hell was he a better defender from his couch? :biggums:

35 yo jordan finished 4th in dpoy that year too (in addition to winning mvp, scoring title, ring #6, fmvp #6, first team o, first team d, and schooling young kobe en route to another all star mvp as icing on the goat cake).

He got the Kobe treatment, making all-defensive teams based off reputation and what he could do earlier in his career. Phil Jackson hid him on defense to conserve energy on offense, Pippen did the dirty work.

One thing is for sure, LeBron at his defensive peak blows away MJ's defensive prime. LeBron had the ability to guard big men, rim protect, and his transition chase down blocks defense was GOAT level.

[Turbo Slayer]

He got the Kobe treatment, making all-defensive teams based off reputation and what he could do earlier in his career. Phil Jackson hid him on defense to conserve energy on offense, Pippen did the dirty work.

One thing is for sure, LeBron at his defensive peak blows away MJ's defensive prime. LeBron had the ability to guard big men, rim protect, and his transition chase down blocks defense was GOAT level.
:applause:

[Micku]

That doesn't mean shit, Camby won DPOY the same year Duncan anchored the best defense in the league, Camby was never a better defender than Duncan.

We all know people who vote for these things don't watch enough games to have an honest opinion.

Yeah. Even sometimes being in the All NBA defense.

In 2013, DPOY was Marc Gasol and he wasn't even in the 1st team in all defense. Was in the 2nd team.

From the games that I watched, I agree that MJ and Pippen were about equal defenders in the 1st peat. There were things that MJ was better at, some things Pippen. Sometimes it depends on the matchup.

2nd Peat, Pippen, but MJ was still a great defender.

The media did say that MJ was their best defender throughout the 1st peat. 2nd peat, not as much.

[Gil Renard]

2 seasons or more below 100 def rating

lebron x2 (2009, 2012)
kawhi x5 (2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018)
draymond x3 (2014, 2015, 2017)
pippen x4 (1994, 1995, 1998, 2000)
tony allen x3 (2008, 2013, 2015)
artest x3 (2002, 2003, 2004)
paul george x3 (2013, 2014, 2015)



are these the greatest wing defenders of nba history?

mike jordan = ZERO
bryant x1 (2000)

:eek:

[SomeBlackDude]

He got the Kobe treatment, making all-defensive teams based off reputation and what he could do earlier in his career. Phil Jackson hid him on defense to conserve energy on offense, Pippen did the dirty work.

explain how a 35 year old jordan was 4th in dpoy voting and the bulls ranked 3rd defensively in '98. old man jordan didn't do any load management, played all 82 games while pip was nursing a broken back.

all that happened due to 'reputation'?


One thing is for sure, LeBron at his defensive peak blows away MJ's defensive prime. LeBron had the ability to guard big men, rim protect, and his transition chase down blocks defense was GOAT level.

litrally all the dude had was chase down blocks because defenders were consistently blowing by him. downright shitty man defender. and he's only gotten worse with time. last year was downright embarrassing, good on the lakers to make the moves they did.

talk about coaches hiding players, dude was petrified to guard durant straight up for all the finals games the cavs and dubs played.

and with good reason too.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3f/1c/3f/3f1c3f325882092a9eb46098159ec54f.gif

:yaohappy:

[Micku]

He got the Kobe treatment, making all-defensive teams based off reputation and what he could do earlier in his career. Phil Jackson hid him on defense to conserve energy on offense, Pippen did the dirty work.

One thing is for sure, LeBron at his defensive peak blows away MJ's defensive prime. LeBron had the ability to guard big men, rim protect, and his transition chase down blocks defense was GOAT level.

I wouldn't say so. You could still check the stats on it. MJ and Pip whenever they guard someone, their oFG% is just about the same. At least from what I can recall. His help defense and his ability to play the passing lane and get back into position on defense was still one of the best, just not as good as when he was younger. Even when you watch the games, MJ was still a great defender.

Kobe was easing up defensively unless he was locked in.

But not to say that MJ didn't have time to rest when Pippen was out there. They switched it up.


With the comparison of peak LeBron. He is more versatile. But MJ was quicker. At MJ peak, I'm not too sure if LeBron was better at one on one defense or reading the offense was good as MJ. Like when he would fight over the screens off the ball. MJ was amazing at that. But LeBron big body and quickness could defend from 1-4. His help defense was great too.

[Gil Renard]

OP, voters back then didn

[Turbo Slayer]

[QUOTE=Gil Renard]OP, voters back then didn

[bigkingsfan]

Bulls improved D with Pete Myers

[andgar923]

They didn't have advanced analytics back then, eye test suggest that MJ was the better defender because he guarded the opposings team best player more often than Pippen and averaged more steals but Pippen was the vastly superior help defender and overall more impactful defender because of his ability to defend multiple positions and his overall length.

Their is a reason why the Bulls remained an elite defense team after MJ retired. It's because they didn't lose there defensive anchor in Pippen
And MJ didn

[Rico2016]

2 seasons or more below 100

lebron x2 (2009, 2012)
kawhi x5 (2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018)
draymond x3 (2014, 2015, 2017)
pippen x4 (1994, 1995, 1998, 2000)
tony allen x3 (2008, 2013, 2015)
artest x3 (2002, 2003, 2004)
paul george x3 (2013, 2014, 2015)



are these the greatest win defenders of nba history?

mike jordan = ZERO
bryant x1 (2000)

TS

[1987_Lakers]

explain how a 35 year old jordan was 4th in dpoy voting and the bulls ranked 3rd defensively in '98. old man jordan didn't do any load management, played all 82 games while pip was nursing a broken back.

all that happened due to 'reputation'?


Lakers had the #4 defense in 2010, Kobe finished #12 in DPOY voting, does that mean Kobe was a great defender that year?? Every fan knew at that point that Kobe's defense was nothing to brag about.

[Micku]

I wouldn't use DRtg across eras. And I wouldn't really use it as the main source to compare defensive positions either. Especially guards. Look at Larry Bird.

He has DRtg below 100 five times in his career. Was a better defensive player MJ? Pippen during 1st peat? Tony Allen for a few of those years? No. He wasn't better than Mchale. He wasn't a better defender than Michael Cooper.

And even in the modern era. Look at Klay and Curry. He has better DWS and better DRtg than Klay Thompson. But he isn't a better defender.

DRtg put more emphasis on some stats than others. And don't recongnize some of the things that eye tests only that could see. There is no perfect defensive stat. And it's more unfair for guards. As stated:


Perhaps as a byproduct, big men tend to have the best Defensive Ratings (although Oliver notes that history's best defensive teams were generally anchored by dominant defensive big men, suggesting that those types of players are the most important to a team's defensive success). A corollary to this is that excellent perimeter defenders who don't steal the ball a lot — for instance, Joe Dumars or Doug Christie — are underrated defensively by DRtg, and are prone to look only as good as their team's overall defense performs.


DRtg is much more of a team stat than a individual stat. The better the overall team do defensively, the better the individual stat becomes. Big men is more important and it has more stats that lead to defensive stats than guards. Sometimes that's even deceptive if you use it in the wrong way. It's disingenuous to put use that stat and say "He has a lower drtg, therefore he is a better defender than this person in 1980." That's not counting the rule changing, the pace, the stats and lack of stats that take account of the defense, who is the vocal leader to call out the defensive roles, the switching, who is the best one on one, who rotates properly, and etc. As much as we would like it to be, there is no single defense stat to say who is the best defender yet. You have to use a combination of everything plus eye test otherwise you'll get weird results. .

And when it comes to Pip and MJ. It depends on which aspects are we talking about. Both of them are great when it comes to help. MJ is better at playing the passing lane and reading the d. Pip is better at helping from one pass away and denying the entry pass from the post due to his length. MJ is better at coming off the weak side. Pip is better at disrupting the offense from the help as well. One on one, they are about the same. It just depends on the match up. As you see here,

https://stats.nba.com/players/opponent-shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612741&sort=10-14%20ft.%20FGA&dir=1

MJ and Pip is about the same oFG% with the same amount of FGA at each area of the floor. MJ was a bit better in the playoffs in 97. But, it doesn't take account who they are guarding. They usually switch out.

In 98 it was also very similar. Pip matched his oFG% to MJ. MJ getting the most FGA on him, but the percentage made against him is low. Sometimes lower than Pip, sometimes higher. But not enough to say Pip is better or MJ is better.

[SomeBlackDude]

Lakers had the #4 defense in 2010, Kobe finished #12 in DPOY voting, does that mean Kobe was a great defender that year?? Every fan knew at that point that Kobe's defense was nothing to brag about.

beans was still a top tier perimeter defender that season. he had gotten into some bad habits, gambling more in passing lanes. conserved energy from time to time for offense. but he could shut a mfer down when need be. wasn't his peak defensive self from the 3-peat era, but still elite. he didn't go off a cliff defensively until 2012ish.

but mamba then was infinitely better as a man defender than bronny sr was at any point of his career.

i have spoken.

[Micku]

beans was still a top tier perimeter defender that season. he had gotten into some bad habits, gambling more in passing lanes. conserved energy from time to time for offense. but he could shut a mfer down when need be. wasn't his peak defensive self from the 3-peat era, but still elite. he didn't go off a cliff defensively until 2012ish.

but mamba then was infinitely better as a man defender than bronny sr was at any point of his career.

i have spoken.

He cut off earlier than 2012 imo. He wasn't really that good in 06 or 07. 08 and 09 were better. But 11 and 10? I dunno. Even though he was solid, I felt like Wade and Tony Allen were better that year. But Wade 10 wasn't as good as he was in 09 and 11. Tony Allen didn't play that much in 10, so that's why he didn't get a nod. But 11 tho? He should've been first team.

Kobe choose when he should play defense. When he put his mind on to it, he was worthy of that 1st team all defense. But he didn't that often enough. Tony Allen did.

[1987_Lakers]

beans was still a top tier perimeter defender that season. he had gotten into some bad habits, gambling more in passing lanes. conserved energy from time to time for offense. but he could shut a mfer down when need be. wasn't his peak defensive self from the 3-peat era, but still elite. he didn't go off a cliff defensively until 2012ish.

but mamba then was infinitely better as a man defender than bronny sr was at any point of his career.

i have spoken.

He was inconsistent af. Keep telling yourself he was a top 12 defender that year. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

SBD stay bringing up Bron randomly.


Absolutely shook of his hero Mikey being surpassed :yaohappy:


Quivering in his space jam PJs :oldlol:

[Turbo Slayer]

SBD stay bringing up Bron randomly.


Absolutely shook of his hero Mikey being surpassed :yaohappy:


Quivering in his space jam PJs :oldlol:
:yaohappy:

[72-10]

Not during the 2nd 3 peat, it was pretty clear Pippen was the better defender at that point.

yes, and it's equally clear that Jordan was the beter defender during the first therepeat and beforehand

[72-10]

mj was a better defender every year except 96' and 97' - see the dpoy voting above

no he wasn't - edit: whoops, misread your quote, I'll just keep this

he played better lockdown D than Pippen (just like Rodman did as well) though

Pippen was more effective over the course of a whole game and he's more effective for the rare traps in close games

Pippen's defensive assignments often entailed the other teams' best offensive player, like a prime Grant Hill, a prime Penny Hardaway, and a prime Reggie Miller

[Rico2016]

False. However, do you want to know what's true? You asked for it. Scottie Pippen had best defensive years when deadweight Joran left the Bulls


It has been brought to the board's attention that Pippen had 4 years with a DRtg under 100, two of them being in 1994 and 1995 when Joran left the Bulls. For good measure, Joran never accomplished such a feat, even though he had Pippen to help him on defense and Rodman in the later part of his career. But the looming question. The one that has you question MJ's defensive abilities is*How did the Bulls get better on defense when Jordan left?*

Bulls Team defensive rating
1993: 106.1
*Bulls drop Joran and add Pete Myers
1994: 102.7
1995: 104.3

Is the formula for defensive success to simply drop MJ and swap for any other player in league history, even a one Pete Myers?

[72-10]

Jordan's defense meant more in 98 than Pippen's since he played the whole season and Pippen missed like half the season

[72-10]

Jordan was better at reading passes and jumping the passing lanes than Pippen

although he gambled sometimes, his steals have more value than some of ya'll give him credit for because he rarely lost on his gambles

and with his timing in the paint and vertical leap, he might be the best shotblocking guard of all time

[Rico2016]

Jordan was better at reading passes and jumping the passing lanes than Pippen

although he gambled sometimes, his steals have more value than some of ya'll give him credit for because he rarely lost on his gambles

and with his timing in the paint and vertical leap, he might be the best shotblocking guard of all time


How did the Bulls improve on defense after shedding a PRIME Jordan? Face it, he is not a 2 way player.

[andgar923]

no he wasn't - edit: whoops, misread your quote, I'll just keep this

he played better lockdown D than Pippen (just like Rodman did as well) though

Pippen was more effective over the course of a whole game and he's more effective for the rare traps in close games

Pippen's defensive assignments often entailed the other teams' best offensive player, like a prime Grant Hill, a prime Penny Hardaway, and a prime Reggie Miller
That was MJ when Pip got killed by those same players.

MJ was the stopper specially on those players, specially during crunch time.

And unlike Pip who was often used as a free safety, MJ chased players all over through screens etc

[72-10]

it's an interesting point about guard play, screens, etc. something I didn't pay much mind

[NBAGOAT]

That was MJ when Pip got killed by those same players.

MJ was the stopper specially on those players, specially during crunch time.

And unlike Pip who was often used as a free safety, MJ chased players all over through screens etc

It

[Micku]

no he wasn't - edit: whoops, misread your quote, I'll just keep this

he played better lockdown D than Pippen (just like Rodman did as well) though

Pippen was more effective over the course of a whole game and he's more effective for the rare traps in close games

Pippen's defensive assignments often entailed the other teams' best offensive player, like a prime Grant Hill, a prime Penny Hardaway, and a prime Reggie Miller
I want to say MJ was better reading and fighting off screens off the ball than Pippen too. But I have to rewatch some games to really see.

[3ball]

Bulls Team defensive rating
1993: 106.1
*Bulls drop Joran and add Pete Myers
1994: 102.7
1995: 104.3


In 1994, the entire league saw a decline in DRtg, so the Bulls' DRtg didn't change relative to the league - their ranking remained the same - their defense ranked 7th, 4th, and 7th from 91-93', and 6th in 1994

So no improvement at all

Since their defensive ranking remained the same, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense, which caused their offensive ranking to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.





Bulls Team defensive rating
1993: 106.1
*Bulls drop Joran and add Pete Myers
1994: 102.7
1995: 104.3


Again, the entire league saw an improvement in DRtg so the bulls' rankings remained the same.

teams have a limited amount of energy to expend on both ends - shifts in performance/effort on one side normally take away from the other side.. But even though the Bulls offense fell off a cliff in 1994 and they focused more on defense, their defense didn't improve relative to the league because they were missing their best defender (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s).

Otoh, the presence of MJ gave the Bulls the highest ORtg's of all time.. But this GOAT improvement on offense didn't come at the expense of defense like it would for most teams.. His presence enabled a TWO-WAY team, which isn't surprising, since he's the goat two-way player according to Popovich (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875095&postcount=46).

So imagine Kawhi Leonard (as Popovich references), with the capability of scoring 15 more ppg.. That's Jordan... That's the GOAT.. we're seeing Kawhi dominate this year
.

[3ball]

.
Grant Hill bullies Pippen super-easy:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/4UeQlI.gif



Whereas MJ's superior aggressiveness and strength makes Grant Hill work super-hard:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/AXOd7a.gif



Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/5FXjSn.gif



But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/n1LWjI.gif



Pippen couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/NZrhCv.gif



Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/DtKoPr.gif) in 99' - Pippen is joke to him... But just a few months earlier, Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/EStPHq.gif


The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..

MJ was also goat at blocking shots from the help side on bigs - see his famous block on Ewing (https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-04-2015/FqA0f9.gif), and his blocks on Hakeem here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/_CiUgr.gif) (only MJ plays defense like that) and here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/7-w55S.gif), and shaq here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-04-2015/LP59GS.gif) and here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-04-2015/3ClBkF.gif).

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

.
Grant Hill bullies Pippen super-easy:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/4UeQlI.gif



Whereas MJ's superior aggressiveness and strength makes Grant Hill work super-hard:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/AXOd7a.gif



Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/5FXjSn.gif



But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/n1LWjI.gif



Pippen couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/NZrhCv.gif



Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/DtKoPr.gif) in 99' - Pippen is joke to him... But just a few months earlier, Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/EStPHq.gif


The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..

MJ was also goat at blocking shots from the help side on bigs - see his famous block on Ewing (https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-04-2015/FqA0f9.gif), and his blocks on Hakeem here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/_CiUgr.gif) (only MJ plays defense like that) and here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/7-w55S.gif), and shaq here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-04-2015/LP59GS.gif) and here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-04-2015/3ClBkF.gif).

Penny and Grant routinely took dumps on Pip. He couldnt handle their first step

Pip could never guard legit PFs/Cs either so his size advantage didnt mean a whole lot. They were always tasked with Ho Grant or Rodman

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

How did the Bulls improve on defense after shedding a PRIME Jordan? Face it, he is not a 2 way player.

93 Bulls - 7th ranked defense
94 Bulls - 6th ranked defense

hardly a change babyboi and if u knew anything about that era youd know their rotation was completely different

93 Bulls rotation minus Jordan

Pip
Ho Grant
BJ
Cartwright
Scott
Paxson
Stacey
Trent
Perdue

94 Bulls rotation minus Jordan

Pip
Ho Grant
BJ
Myers
Kukoc
Wennington
Kerr
Longley
Cartwright

Pip/Grant/BJ were the only main rotation players from the 93 team still getting significant minutes in 94. Cartwright was the only other common player and he was getting played out of the rotation and only played 40 games that year before the Bulls chose to not re-sign him in FA

[72-10]

yeah 3ball I'm not saying Pippen never had defensiev lapses and I'm not saying that Jordan didn't play defense, but I don't think you're going to convince any of us who watched the second threepeat into thinking that Pippen's defense didn't wreak more havoc over the course of the entire game than Jordan's. Pippen tried more on defense than Jordan did during the second threepeat. Jordan played better defense when it mattered more, but that's about it...

[3ball]

yeah 3ball I'm not saying Pippen never had defensiev lapses and I'm not saying that Jordan didn't play defense, but I don't think you're going to convince any of us who watched the second threepeat into thinking that Pippen's defense didn't wreak more havoc over the course of the entire game than Jordan's. Pippen tried more on defense than Jordan did during the second threepeat. Jordan played better defense when it mattered more, but that's about it...
I don't remember Pippen's defense "wreaking havoc all over the court"

Pippen didn't do that, otherwise the Bulls would've ranked better defensively before Rodman got there in 1996..

before Rodman, Pippen and MJ only gave the Bulls the 7th-ranked defense during the 1st three-peat - many teams had better defensive "help" because the Bulls had no rim protection, few good rebounders, and unathletic guards - 2 good wing defenders doesn't make up for that, which is why Drexler's Blazers had better defenses and also many of Lebron's teams..

So stop exaggerating - Pippen never "wreaked havoc" and was only worth a 7th-ranked defense.. And his DPOY voting during the 1st three-peat were basically the same as the 2nd - he was infact becoming washed up in 1997 and 1998, and was a worse defender those years than the 1st three-peat.

Bottom line: MJ was considered the better defender for the majority of the time they played together - 7 of 9 years according to DPOY voting (2 of those years were ties)

[Nikola_]

How did the Bulls improve on defense after shedding a PRIME Jordan? Face it, he is not a 2 way player.

league wide ppg dropped like 3pts lol, fg% also

[72-10]

I don't remember Pippen's defense "wreaking havoc all over the court"

Pippen didn't do that, otherwise the Bulls would've ranked better defensively before Rodman got there in 1996..

before Rodman, Pippen and MJ only gave the Bulls the 7th-ranked defense during the 1st three-peat - many teams had better defensive "help" because the Bulls had no rim protection, few good rebounders, and unathletic guards - 2 good wing defenders doesn't make up for that, which is why Drexler's Blazers had better defenses and also many of Lebron's teams..

So stop exaggerating - Pippen never "wreaked havoc" and was only worth a 7th-ranked defense.. And his DPOY voting during the 1st three-peat were basically the same as the 2nd - he was infact becoming washed up in 1997 and 1998, and was a worse defender those years than the 1st three-peat.

Bottom line: MJ was considered the better defender for the majority of the time they played together - 7 of 9 years according to DPOY voting (2 of those years were ties)

do you realize that I didn't really disagree with your thread title?:confusedshrug:

but I disgree with your analysis of Pippen

[3ball]

do you realize that I didn't really disagree with your thread title?:confusedshrug:

but I disgree with your analysis of Pippen
i just think he's an overrated defender - he's been inflated defensively in hindsight, but wasn't lauded so much at the time..

I personally think the inflation is because new fans couldn't figure out how such an underwhelming roster won 6 rings, so they chalk up the winning (despite lack of offensive firepower) to Pippen's defense.

but if he was so great, why did the Bulls only have the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat?

why does he only have 1 year where he ranked #2 in dpoy voting?

why are there scores of games where he's getting destroyed?

where are his "signature series" where he locked someone up as the primary defender?

the reality is that MJ held nearly every opposing SG he faced in the playoffs to 30-40% shooting.. literally.. so he's the one with the signature series locking guys up, but no one talks about it because they're so enamored with his offense.

[3ball]

there's no actual proof that pippen was a better defender than Iggy, Shawn Marion or other good defenders... The winning spotlight simply gave Pippen accolades

Pippen has zero signature series as the primary defender where he locked anyone down like Iggy locked down lebron

So Pippen never shut anyone down as the primary defender or yielded great 2-way teams, so there's no proof that he was a better defender than Iggy, Shawn Marion or other good defenders

Btw, notice that MJ was top 5 DPOY and scoring champ every year from 88-98' - that's the top level on both sides of the ball for 11 years

[And1AllDay]

pippen led mike in defense rating every single ring

every
single
ring

[And1AllDay]

He got the Kobe treatment, making all-defensive teams based off reputation and what he could do earlier in his career. Phil Jackson hid him on defense to conserve energy on offense, Pippen did the dirty work.

One thing is for sure, LeBron at his defensive peak blows away MJ's defensive prime. LeBron had the ability to guard big men, rim protect, and his transition chase down blocks defense was GOAT level.

this

/ t h r e a d

[bullettooth]

LeBron does one memorable chase down block and all of a sudden he's an amazing defendor.

LOL @ LeBron fanboys.

[Airupthere]

LeBron does one memorable chase down block and all of a sudden he's an amazing defendor.

LOL @ LeBron fanboys.

And selectively forget Lebron’s defensive lapses his last year with the cavs and years with the lakers. If you have to be pushed by kuzma to play defense, that’s got to be embarrasing.

[light]

That's a media award. What coaches and players think and what the media thinks are often at odds.

Remember, Pippen made the Dream Team too and was declared an all-time top 50 player too in the 90s and it wasn't for his scoring and assist titles.

His defensive range is really what set him apart not just from MJ but from everyone until LeBron came around. Not only did Pippen quarterback the Bulls defense but he guarded more positions than Jordan.

Jordan was a great defender too obviously, but Pippen was bigger and could do more defensively.

Together they were an unfair advantage.

"The versatility of LeBron defensively is just incredible; I don't think we've ever seen someone with that defensive range. Scottie Pippen probably comes closest, but LeBron is stronger than Scottie when guarding post up players like Jefferson."

--Steve Kerr, 2013

[And1AllDay]

https://i.postimg.cc/26qKkR0F/919293969798wow.jpg

[3ball]

That's a media award. What coaches and players think and what the media thinks are often at odds.

Remember, Pippen made the Dream Team too and was declared an all-time top 50 player too in the 90s and it wasn't for his scoring and assist titles.

His defensive range is really what set him apart not just from MJ but from everyone until LeBron came around. Not only did Pippen quarterback the Bulls defense but he guarded more positions than Jordan.

Jordan was a great defender too obviously, but Pippen was bigger and could do more defensively.

Together they were an unfair advantage.

"The versatility of LeBron defensively is just incredible; I don't think we've ever seen someone with that defensive range. Scottie Pippen probably comes closest, but LeBron is stronger than Scottie when guarding post up players like Jefferson."

--Steve Kerr, 2013


Defensive versatility doesn't equal good defense

Lebron hasn't been all-defense in 8 years or in his 30's, and gave up 4 FMVP to his defensive assignment.. teammates push him into the right spots on defense

[Airupthere]

Defensive versatility doesn't equal good defense

Lebron hasn't been all-defense in 8 years or in his 30's, and gave up 4 FMVP to his defensive assignment.. teammates push him into the right spots on defense


https://youtu.be/_ZlvjFqb5kE

[dawsey6]

Nah.

I just find it funny how 3ball will lean hard onto media acclaim when it benefits Jordan.

But claim the same acclaim is a scam and a fraud when it's James.

Like, the SAME s***.

"Look they voted Jordan top 3 so that means he's better!"

yet...

"...if they act like LeBron even has a CASE to win MVP it's a frauded award!"

Tries sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hard...

[Shooter]

https://i.postimg.cc/26qKkR0F/919293969798wow.jpg

[3ba11]

.

1993

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-15-2022/fxleo3.gif

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1993.html


Prime Pippen was behind Starks, Majerle and company on defense, yet he's compared to Jordan as a defender? Seems like revisionist history.

Jordan also averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career

Btw, in addition to Pippen not being a top defender in 93', he had the lowest playoff PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48 of any winning sidekick... He also had lower true shooting in the playoffs than the league average every year except 89-91'

[Hey Yo]

1993 Pip >>>>> 2013 Wade

[Kblaze8855]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2205170716350340.jpeg

[Shooter]

https://i.postimg.cc/26qKkR0F/919293969798wow.jpg

[SATAN]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2205170716350340.jpeg

:roll:

Downplaying Pippen's defense is laughable.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5muhNbC-rk

[kawhileonard2]

Need an answer on each thread below.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher

Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED

Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500431-Lakers-were-1-in-Preseason-Odds-in-2021-and-Suns-were-14
Was #1 in Preseason odds and lost to a 14th seed in odds

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html

And Devin Booker walked them down in the playoffs with Devin outplaying Lebron. :confusedshrug:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500416-Why-did-Pelinka-surround-Lebron-with-a-bullshit-roster
He has peak Anthony Davis, the best player on the 2020 squad and the reason the Lakers did anything as the 2019 Lakers missed the playoffs and 2021 Lakers lost in round 1 when AD wasn't around. He has Prime Melo who won a scoring title and all time leader in scoring for the Olympics. He has Dwight Howard a 3x DPOY and a guy who beat Lebron without HCA. He has Westbrook who is the modern day Oscar Robertson and also won league mvp along with average a Triple Double 4 years in a row. He also has Rondo who is a hall of famer.

Why didn't he play it against Dwight Howard in 2009 when Dwight was dominating http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?459570-How-is-it-even-possible-to-lose-to-Dwight-Howard-in-a-series-with-HCA/page10? Or against Duncan or KG or Dirk? Why did he run away from KD a guy at his position?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head

Why didn't he do **** against Booker in the playoffs as well?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron


Devin Booker broke Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500264-Devin-Booker-broke-Lebron&p=14500724


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503966-3ball-why-can-LeBron-win-with-Irving-but-KD-can-t&p=14584482#post14584482

Lebron won bronze medal twice and lost with HCA 3x. Jordan only won gold medal and never lost with HCA. Prove me wrong!

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500440-Russell-Westbrook-leading-the-league-in-Triple-Doubles-Thus-far-in-2022-Season
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/triple-double-leaders-2021-2022-stats

Expected Championships Won and Titles Over Expected
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500379-Expected-Championships-Won-and-Titles-Over-Expected/page3&p=14503600


How did LeBron go 10-16 vs Kawhi? 7-12 vs Shaq? 17-23 vs Curry?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500334-How-did-LeBron-go-10-16-vs-Kawhi-7-12-vs-Shaq-17-23-vs-Curry

Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #1
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497028-Top-50-All-Time-List-Shot-Clock-Era-1&p=14426360&viewfull=1#post14426360


Difference between Lebron and Tmac?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494830-Difference-between-Lebron-and-Tmac
Both 0-2 with HCA against 50+ win teams until they joined forces with someone who won as the man. Also won bronze medals.

Tmac lost to Utah in 2007 while Lebron was losing to a career loser in Dwight Howard and also Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics with peak Tim Duncan on his squad despite playing more minutes than Hakeem even played on the 1996 Olympic team.



LeBron's message that makes the NBA shake: A storm is coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500734-LeBron-s-message-that-makes-the-NBA-shake-A-storm-is-coming

https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2021/04/09/6070b833ca47418e588b45e9.html


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480740-Vasileios-Spanoulis-gt-gt-gt-Lebron-James
Outplayed Lebron in FIBA and caused America to get another bronze medal and then Greece got spanked in Gold medal final.:oldlol:

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/75/rid/5152/sid/3507/_/2006_FIBA_World_Championship/statistic.html


First Time Ever a team with 2 guys who won MVP missed the playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503543-First-Time-Ever-a-team-with-2-guys-who-won-MVP-missed-the-playoffs


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503981-Why-does-Lebron-have-2-bronze-medals-while-KD-only-has-gold-medals&p=14584371#post14584371