Lukaball shackled Porzingis......

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

:biggums:

KP looking like the beast that started his last healthy season with like 29/8/3/2 when he carried the sht @zz Knicks to a 14-6 record and playoff berth before all the injuries:biggums:

26/12/4 tonight with GREAT defense:biggums:

Bucks couldnt get anything going with KP out there.

Mavs defense doesnt have to cover for Luka anymore:biggums:

[Mask the Embiid]

Cancers...

https://clutchpoints.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Luka_Doncic_working_out_with_Kobe_Bryant.jpg

[Proctor]

Mavs more fluid without Luka stopping to cry to the refs every time down the floor.

[superduper]

Giannis ball is like the worst thing I've ever seen

[imdaman99]

This forum is cancer

[bullettooth]

Giannis ball is like the worst thing I've ever seen

18 game win streak... if that's the worst you've ever seen, i'm curious to know what's the best?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

This forum is cancer

u mad KP carrying the garbage ass Knicks to 14-6 and a playoff berth before the injuries ruined his season?

thats the closest yall will sniff to the playoffs in a lonnnnnnnggg time sonny

knicks fans shtting on KP have fun with another Canadian bust :yaohappy:

[DoctorP]

There may be some truth to this. Luka is the man but maybe Porzingis is not the best fit, you see the difference in stats.

Porzingis value now trending up as the chemistry issue is EXPOSED

[ImKobe]

Oh wow, a player puts up better numbers when they have the ball more, SHOCKING!

Bucks had an off-night from three, that doesn't mean their defense didn't get exposed because they still gave up 116 in regulation with Giannis just playing 34 minutes and scoring 48 due to the lack of interior D.

[LAmbruh]

Oh wow, a player puts up better numbers when they have the ball more, SHOCKING!
exactly why Ingram's numbers are dehydrated to the bone :yaohappy:

[FultzNationRISE]

Seth Curry was also unleashed by Luka

[FultzNationRISE]

This is looking more and more like a real thing.

[90sgoat]

This is good.

Luka is on his way to become GOAT, but like MJ, he needs to stop being so god damn selfish and play more off ball.

[brooks_thompson]

I'm all for anything that keeps a single guy from dominating the offense like Luka/Harden/LBJ, but I also think if you're as good as Porzingis supposedly is you should be able to scale your game down as necessary, while remaining as efficient or actually improving efficiency. I don't buy the 'needs more shots to get in rhythm' crap. These dudes are pros. Like an actor who is in control of his moods on demand, these guys should be able to adjust better than most do.

[ImKobe]

This is good.

Luka is on his way to become GOAT, but like MJ, he needs to stop being so god damn selfish and play more off ball.

No he doesn't :biggums: the Mavs had like a 118 ORTG through the first 25 games with him...the 2017 Warriors are #1 all-time in ORTG and that's with only a 115.9, Mavs currently have the all-time highest ORTG with 117.2.

Porzingis needs to stop trying to find a way to fit out and just fit in.

[~primetime~]

Winning is all that matters... if the points come from Luka or Porzingis, it doesn't matter as long ad there is a W.

I'm fine with Luka being a ball hog...as long as Dallas is winning games

[DoctorP]

Historically, ballhogging doesnt win titles

[~primetime~]

Luka racks up a shit load of assists...so he is getting others involved

[DoctorP]

Luka racks up a shit load of assists...so he is getting others involved

Branball 2.0

[DMAVS41]

Historically, ballhogging doesnt win titles

Historically, teams like this Mavericks team don't have the best offense in the league.

If we judge on how the team did so far with Luka...one could nitpick and say he takes too many bad 3's, complains to the refs too much, and holds the ball a bit too long...and I'd agree with all of that actually.

However, the team is greatly exceeding expectations and has the best offense in the NBA. Kind of hard to say much when those are the results.

What always confuses me about this "ballhogging" or "Lebron Ball" stuff...is that the problem on those teams is almost always the defense.

Just think for a moment...take some time and logically think. Do you really think the problem on the Mavs in terms of contending is the offense? Or do you think it might be the 15th ranked defense that allows too much perimeter penetration and struggles with size at times?

Like, I get the narrative, but at some point when a team is elite offensively...and the defense is average...it really isn't that hard of an equation to figure out.

Not sure why people struggle with this. The 04 Mavs are a great example. Absolutely loaded offensive team...and what do you know...they had the best offense in the league...one of the best ever in relation to the rest of the league.

But, they had a shit defense. And that is almost never going to win. It just isn't that complicated.

[DoctorP]

Historically, teams like this Mavericks team don't have the best offense in the league.

If we judge on how the team did so far with Luka...one could nitpick and say he takes too many bad 3's, complains to the refs too much, and holds the ball a bit too long...and I'd agree with all of that actually.

However, the team is greatly exceeding expectations and has the best offense in the NBA. Kind of hard to say much when those are the results.

What always confuses me about this "ballhogging" or "Lebron Ball" stuff...is that the problem on those teams is almost always the defense.

Just think for a moment...take some time and logically think. Do you really think the problem on the Mavs in terms of contending is the offense? Or do you think it might be the 15th ranked defense that allows too much perimeter penetration and struggles with size at times?

Like, I get the narrative, but at some point when a team is elite offensively...and the defense is average...it really isn't that hard of an equation to figure out.

Not sure why people struggle with this. The 04 Mavs are a great example. Absolutely loaded offensive team...and what do you know...they had the best offense in the league...one of the best ever in relation to the rest of the league.

But, they had a shit defense. And that is almost never going to win. It just isn't that complicated.

2 words: regular season

[DMAVS41]

2 words: regular season

Nah, because the offenses you guys rail against are also good in the playoffs most of the time.

And an average or poor defense usually struggles more in the playoffs as well.

Just don't want to have a fair view of reality...need to hold onto an agenda regardless of what is actually happening.

[DoctorP]

Nah, because the offenses you guys rail against are also good in the playoffs most of the time.

And an average or poor defense usually struggles more in the playoffs as well.

Just don't want to have a fair view of reality...need to hold onto an agenda regardless of what is actually happening.

what agenda? that ball hogging doesn't win titles?

it's just a historical observation, numbnuts

[DMAVS41]

what agenda? that ball hogging doesn't win titles?

it's just a historical observation, numbnuts

What years are you referencing?

[DoctorP]

What years are you referencing?

too many to mention here without taking a substantial amount of time to post research

just research it

[DoctorP]

see 2014 Finals for one example

2007 finals for another

Bulls vs Pistons... on and on

[DMAVS41]

see 2014 Finals for one example

2007 finals for another

Bulls vs Pistons... on and on

In 2014...the Heat got torched to the tune of 121 points per 100...that was a far bigger problem than the offense. LOL...that is your go-to example? Even if the Heat had scored at a historically good rate in the Finals...they still lose.

2007? You really think the problem was the style of play? It wasn't that Lebron had flaws in his game and that his teammates weren't championship caliber? In no basketball universe is a team like the 07 Cavs supposed to beat the 07 Spurs. Absurd.

You see my point? You get forced into using reality and the two examples you list so far absolutely don't hold up.

What other examples?

Oh, saw you added Bulls/Pistons from late 80's...I don't know...I could see that argument, but certainly most of those years the Bulls just weren't ready yet. You are inferring that the style is what caused them to lose, but I'd argue that Jordan playing like he did early on was in large part dictated by the teams he had around him. Pippen, for example, really took until 90 to get good enough to win with imo.

[DoctorP]

In 2014...the Heat got torched to the tune of 121 points per 100...that was a far bigger problem than the offense. LOL...that is your go-to example? Even if the Heat had scored at a historically good rate in the Finals...they still lose.

2007? You really think the problem was the style of play? It wasn't that Lebron had flaws in his game and that his teammates weren't championship caliber? In no basketball universe is a team like the 07 Cavs supposed to beat the 07 Spurs. Absurd.

You see my point? You get forced into using reality and the two examples you list so far absolutely don't hold up.

What other examples?

Oh, saw you added Bulls/Pistons from late 80's...I don't know...I could see that argument, but certainly most of those years the Bulls just weren't ready yet. You are inferring that the style is what caused them to lose, but I'd argue that Jordan playing like he did early on was in large part dictated by the teams he had around him. Pippen, for example, really took until 90 to get good enough to win with imo.

exactly. Mavs may just not be ready yet. But they may be ready. Time will tell. They are an outside contender in my eyes. Top 4 in the west.

Those LeBron teams were one dimensional regular season successes. Thats the parallel. Anyways whatever. Good luck. I really dont give a shit.

[Ghost1]

Mavs currently at the four spot... homecourt against the rockets :oldlol: , avoiding the clippers in the second round :applause:


potential road to LOB:

Harden - Westbrook

LeBron - Davis

Kawhi - George

Giannis - Middleton


:biggums: :biggums:

[r0drig0lac]

Cancers...

https://clutchpoints.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Luka_Doncic_working_out_with_Kobe_Bryant.jpg
:applause: :applause:

[ImKobe]

In 2014...the Heat got torched to the tune of 121 points per 100...that was a far bigger problem than the offense. LOL...that is your go-to example? Even if the Heat had scored at a historically good rate in the Finals...they still lose.



Offense was a big issue. They forced the ball out of Bron's hands and forced a lot of turnovers in general which obviously helped their offensive efficiency, they also dominated the offensive glass which led to easy 2nd chance opportunities as well, obviously the 3-Point shooting helped them win series but it's not like they made 15-20 threes a game, Heat actually matched them from 3 for the most part, they won B2B at Miami with just 9 threes made in each of those games so the defensive/rebounding advantage is why they really won that series.

The Heat didn't break 100 points once in that series and only managed to score 86-92 points in the 3 straight home losses. Lebron had good averages but the reality was that he didn't get much of anything in the 3 home losses until the Spurs had already built a double-digit lead.

[DMAVS41]

Offense was a big issue. They forced the ball out of Bron's hands and forced a lot of turnovers in general which obviously helped their offensive efficiency, they also dominated the offensive glass which led to easy 2nd chance opportunities as well, obviously the 3-Point shooting helped them win series but it's not like they made 15-20 threes a game, Heat actually matched them from 3 for the most part, they won B2B at Miami with just 9 threes made in each of those games so the defensive/rebounding advantage is why they really won that series.

The Heat didn't break 100 points once in that series and only managed to score 86-92 points in the 3 straight home losses. Lebron had good averages but the reality was that he didn't get much of anything in the 3 home losses until the Spurs had already built a double-digit lead.

They also played that series at a really slow pace iirc. PPG is pretty meaningless without the context of pace.

I do agree it is all connected, but it goes both ways. Better defense by the Heat...leads to transition and semi-transition...and the Heat were usually pretty good in that area...which would then improve the offense.

Regardless, giving up a 121 ortg in that series was bad defense by the Heat. The best offense in the league that year had a 112 ortg and the average offense was 107.

To argue that the main reason the Heat lost because Lebron "hogged the ball" in 2014...really just doesn't pass as a good argument imo. Not saying you are making that argument, but my response was to someone that was. And it just isn't based in reality.

[DMAVS41]

exactly. Mavs may just not be ready yet. But they may be ready. Time will tell. They are an outside contender in my eyes. Top 4 in the west.

Those LeBron teams were one dimensional regular season successes. Thats the parallel. Anyways whatever. Good luck. I really dont give a shit.

Yea, but not being ready is way different than saying the style of play cost them a title.

Again, one-dimensional regular season successes might largely based on the players on the team.

The two Lebron teams you listed were one dimensional in a sense, but largely in part because of the players they had.

The 04 Mavs had one of the best offenses of all-time...they didn't lose because of offense. They lost because the defense was shit. In part because Nash/Jamison/Walker were historically bad on defense...and the team tried to play Dirk at center which hurt the defense a lot as well.

The point is...team defense really needs to be around top 10 or better in the league to win titles...probably a few outlier teams that won...I'd have to check...but most of the time even an all-time great offense isn't overcoming bad defense...

And to focus on the offense is missing the point for at least some of the teams you seem to be thinking about.

[tontoz]

KP shooting 43.6% over the last 4 games. :bowdown:

Has it occurred to anyone that KP just needs some time to get his game back after missing over a year due to injury?

[keep-itreal]

Porzingis is such a great player. Always rooted for this guy

[stalkerforlife]

If my beautiful white unicorn can keep this up, the sky is the limit for my Mavs.

[And1AllDay]

see 2014 Finals for one example

2007 finals for another

Bulls vs Pistons... on and on


terrible example

in fact if we look to 2011 when bran ball was not a ball hog...

your not making any sense you proved yourself wrong already

[atljonesbro]

Luka Doncic has a top 3 supporting cast in the league.

[90sgoat]

Luka Doncic has a top 3 supporting cast in the league.

Tim Hardaway career averages: 13ppg on 42% and 34% from 3.

Last 2 seasons before Mavs, he didn't hit 40% in FG%

[DoctorP]

ill just bookmark this thread and laugh in june as usual

[ImKobe]

Yea, but not being ready is way different than saying the style of play cost them a title.

Again, one-dimensional regular season successes might largely based on the players on the team.

The two Lebron teams you listed were one dimensional in a sense, but largely in part because of the players they had.

The 04 Mavs had one of the best offenses of all-time...they didn't lose because of offense. They lost because the defense was shit. In part because Nash/Jamison/Walker were historically bad on defense...and the team tried to play Dirk at center which hurt the defense a lot as well.

The point is...team defense really needs to be around top 10 or better in the league to win titles...probably a few outlier teams that won...I'd have to check...but most of the time even an all-time great offense isn't overcoming bad defense...

And to focus on the offense is missing the point for at least some of the teams you seem to be thinking about.

Yeah I don't agree with the hogging part in 2014, the Heat used him a bit differently then but Kawhi did an amazing job on him.

[PickernRoller]

Luka ain't no Kobe disciple, and his game is eerily similar to Bran's. Until he kisses the ring and finds the right path he won't be one. But he has a long career ahead of him so he has time. Giannis is a good example of the transformation that occurs once you switch sides. Kawhi, Giannis and Tatum are ahead of him in this regard.

I'm really not surprised a ball dominant, one man run offense player like Luka is finding all-star success in today's league. When you have a corpse like Lebron still relevant in the league that's all you need to know. Today's no contact sport makes the Euroleague look like 90's NBA. Not surprised one bit by Luka's success.

Nor I'm surprised a big like KP is having issues with a Bran style offense. Just ask Bosh, a PnR big (not even a post-big) - during Bran's prime. It's just not tailored, nor accommodating to his strengths.

[DMAVS41]

Luka Doncic has a top 3 supporting cast in the league.

For what?

Winning regular season games? Maybe...

Winning a title? **** no...you have to prove shit before you get a designation like that.

[ball247]

Don

[Celtics 1825]

How did Porzingisball work out today?

[ImKobe]

How did Porzingisball work out today?

:(

:dancin

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

its........happening.........again......:eek:

[DMAVS41]

its........happening.........again......:eek:

No, it isn't.

Actually watch the game. He's just missing shots that has nothing to do with Luka....as he's done most of the year...miss a lot of shots.

[90sgoat]

No, it isn't.

Actually watch the game. He's just missing shots that has nothing to do with Luka....as he's done most of the year...miss a lot of shots.

It is.

Luka is dominating everything, on the court and mentally.

In addition he is living his man mid play to steal rebounds leading to multiple second chances.

Luka is not going to keep being popular unless he starts being more team oriented.

[SpaceJam2]

Porzingers 1st game with Luka back

2 for 9 at the half with 5 points

Yikes

[DMAVS41]

It is.

Luka is dominating everything, on the court and mentally.

In addition he is living his man mid play to steal rebounds leading to multiple second chances.

Luka is not going to keep being popular unless he starts being more team oriented.

It is often hard to take the stupidity on this forum lately.

Yea, Luka is a way better offensive player than KP right now...that is why Luka has the ball more and shoots more. He scores much better and creates much better.

When Luka was out...KP scored more points because he was featured more, but he was inefficient like he has been all year.

There is no "shackling"...it is a player missing a lot of shots and playing weak in the post.

How many shots should KP get? He got 9 in the first half...seriously, how many shots?

Should he get 25 a night?

[DMAVS41]

Porzingers 1st game with Luka back

2 for 9 at the half with 5 points

Yikes

He shot poorly with him out as well. He has shot poorly pretty much all year.

Most of his shots came when Luka wasn't even in the game.

[90sgoat]

Luka doesn't get Zingis the ball in his spots.

In fact, he almost makes it a point to ignore Zingis.

[DMAVS41]

Luka doesn't get Zingis the ball in his spots.

In fact, he almost makes it a point to ignore Zingis.

Literally as you posted this...Luka got him the ball wide open for 3...KP drove and drew a foul...

Missed a free throw.

It happens a lot. He's been getting great looks all year.

And then again...missed another free throw.

Then set him up again...in the post off a switch because of Luka. KP bricks a jumper.

I could jut keep a running list of what actually happens to make you look even dumber.

Wide open corner 3 off Luka drive action...

[DMAVS41]

Rick pulls KP...Mavs go on a huge run led by Luka.

Luka goes out...KP comes back in.

KP bricks another drive...gives up 8-0 run.

KP has been on the court a lot tonight without Luka...he's missed most of his shots when Luka isn't even out there.

This, relatively speaking, is the norm no matter the circumstances so far this year.

He's been very good defensively and is a nice floor spacer, but he's a low efficiency scorer right now and he's been super weak in the post.

Is what it is...he's still really good and the EV of his shots is way higher than what the Mavs have gotten in real points of those shots this year, but in no way should he be featured more.

This is the best offense in the league...often times it would be better if KP just made some shots.

[DMAVS41]

Rick forced to call timeout.

KP with bench unit (best in the league) has now seen lead dwindle.

Mavs up 3 for the game.

For the game;

KP -10
Luka +14

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Luka/Porzingis have the worst chemistry among the big 2 of the playoff teams

Carlisle has to figure it out........they play horrible together

[DMAVS41]

Luka/Porzingis have the worst chemistry among the big 2 of the playoff teams

Carlisle has to figure it out........they play horrible together

Nah, KP just needs to make some shots.

Also, again...best offense in the league...that will get much better when KP starts making all the great shots he gets routinely.

And, again...you post this after they aren't even on the court together. Was Luka hurting his production when he was on the bench?

[DMAVS41]

Back to back great looks for KP (like many all night)...drills them both.

All about making shots.

[DMAVS41]

Bench mob gets the lead back up.

KP now only -2 for the game after making some shots.

Not hard.

[And1AllDay]

pornziggle 4/15 dropped 13 points :oldlol:

[imdaman99]

KP is good at making 30 footers. Luka doesn't want him to make those because he wants to be one that makes those on the team.

Don't be a ball-stopper, Mavs play their best with the ball moving.

[FultzNationRISE]

I feel bad for KP tbh.

He thought Luka would be a modern Larry Bird.

Turns out hes a white James Harden :facepalm

[90sgoat]

Luka is an annoying brat.

Doesn't take away from his skills, but personality wise, Mavs really need some vets to control his ego.

[DoctorP]

pornziggle 4/15 dropped 13 points :oldlol:

if its a chemistry problem then Porzi should be moved while his value is up

[DMAVS41]

KP is good at making 30 footers. Luka doesn't want him to make those because he wants to be one that makes those on the team.

Don't be a ball-stopper, Mavs play their best with the ball moving.

Mavs play their best on offense with Luka.

Is he perfect? Hell no...he's 20 years old. He turns it over too much, takes too many bad shots, and his defensive effort isn't as consistent as it needs to be.

However, he is leading this team to the best offense in the league while winning way more games than expected.

And this is all happening with KP not even close to back yet...there is no excuse for a player playing the KP role not to shoot over 55% TS if they are worth most of the contract we just gave him.

He's never been efficient really, but he should be able to round into form and make wide open shots and free throws at a much higher rate. KP is shooting 72% from the free throw line. That is not on Luka or the Mavs...that is on him...

The entire team has individual offensive ratings well over 115 for most players on the team. KP? 103...this is why you guys have to watch the games. Doesn't matter if Luka is playing or not...KP continues to be weak in the post, always drives left with mediocre results, misses a lot of good shots, isn't converting at the ft line, doesn't box out well...etc.

Doesn't mean he isn't good. He is. He brings value as a floor spacer and rim protector...but when the rest of the team averages a 118 offensive rating...and he's at 103...he's the problem...not the team that has the best offense in the league without him.

[FireDavidKahn]

Porzi is one of the worst post players in the league.

0.59 ppp
8.7th percentile

:biggums:

[DMAVS41]

Porzi is one of the worst post players in the league.

0.59 ppp
8.7th percentile

:biggums:

It is amazing to hear people argue he should post more. I mean, he could if the Mavs got the switch more often, but even then he hasn't been good.

I think I heard Webber say he's a better post player than Dirk last night...not sure how one can be so ignorant when their job is to watch and know the game.

Carlisle finally had enough of the idiocy last night;

Rick Carlisle: “A post-up is not a good play anymore. It’s just not a good play. It’s not a good play for a 7-foot-3 guy. It’s a low-value situation.”

Barkley/Shaq...etc...they don't know what they are talking about when it comes to him right now. He's not even close to good enough in the post to warrant more touches.

I agree he should be more aggressive, but that means quick decision drives/shots...and better passing off movement (which he did a few times last night)...drawing more fouls...and actually making free throws...etc.

[90sgoat]

Zingis was a very good post player in Knicks.

He needs to get ball early and in close position.

He also needs to get more lobs and more dumps on drives. Play him like a traditional slow center.

[DMAVS41]

Zingis was a very good post player in Knicks.

He needs to get ball early and in close position.

He also needs to get more lobs and more dumps on drives. Play him like a traditional slow center.

Nah, you aren't living in reality.

KP has never had a TS% over 55%...he's never had an offensive rating over 108.

He'd be about right where he is for his career if he was making his free throws.

Never been an efficient offensive player.

Like I said, you are just being stupid.

[ImKobe]

Nah, you aren't living in reality.

KP has never had a TS% over 55%...he's never had an offensive rating over 108.

He'd be about right where he is for his career if he was making his free throws.

Never been an efficient offensive player.

Like I said, you are just being stupid.

This is the truth. 37.1% eFG/0.81 PPP on post-ups in 2017. These people are deluded.

[dreamshake]

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It is amazing to hear people argue he should post more. I mean, he could if the Mavs got the switch more often, but even then he hasn't been good.

I think I heard Webber say he's a better post player than Dirk last night...not sure how one can be so ignorant when their job is to watch and know the game.

Carlisle finally had enough of the idiocy last night;

[B]Rick Carlisle:

[DMAVS41]

It's a good play in the playoffs when the defense tightens up and the game slows down. You need someone who can post up and get buckets.

Yes, if you have a player that can make them...it is great.

You guys all seem to ignore that part. KP, right now, isn't one of those players...he isn't making contested 2's or long 2's...he's not Dirk or Leonard.

Nobody thinks those shots are bad when players like Dirk take them...they weren't bad...they were good.

The problem is, most players can't make them consistently enough to warrant taking them...

Instead, you get guys like Wiggins taking, in the past at least, a ton of these shots that many on here think are the key to winning...all while losing game after game after game...while scoring horribly.

[atljonesbro]

Lukas team is stacked. They were BALLIN without him

[insidehoops]

Kristaps was coming off major injury

[kentatm]

I think I heard Webber say he's a better post player than Dirk last night...not sure how one can be so ignorant when their job is to watch and know the game.



CWebb is just bitter that Dirk is going to always be viewed as the better player all time. I like KP but it's a complete joke to say he has a better post game than Dirk.


Also, this thread is pretty typical of what ISH has become with a bunch of ignorant ass stans looking for any way possible to bash Luka b/c he's fast becoming one of the best players in the league. So we get dipshits who do little more than look at KP's stats and say Luka must be why they are down.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

38/13/4 and 5 blocks 67TS:roll:

What's this nikka average without Luka now like 28/13/3 or some shit. Man look All NBA with Luka ballhog

[90sgoat]

Porzingis was an All Star at age 22, so this should be no surprise.

He is a franchise player in his own right.

Luka has already made adjustments, but he will need to make even more.

[Bronbron23]

Mavs will have s much better chance at winning a chip if they run their team scoring wise through porz. His skill set is much more conducive for scoring deep in the playoffs. It needs a little polishing but he has a better post game and mid range than luka and thats what is needed from your star to win multiple chips. This idea of the three ball being needed is fine an everything but if you look at pretty much every championship team in the last 30 yesrs they were lead by a great post player or great mid range guy, or both. Warriors in 15 is pretty much the only exception to this and that chip was a huge asterisk.

Rick Carlisle saying that its stupid to run your offense through the post is is a joke. His whole career hes been outcoached by a coach who's done this. Pop has won 5 chips lead by a star that had a great post and mid range. No porz isnt duncan in the post at the moment but hes only 24. If he works on and gets just half of duncans post and mid range game than the mavs would be a serious contender in a couple years given what luka can do also.

Its not like mavs are winning anytime soon anyway so why not work on the things that will help make you a championship team in the future because letting a 31% shooter spam a shit ton of step back threes isnt gonna help you win chips anytime soon.

[DMAVS41]

But KP isn't a great post player. This is why you really need to watch the games or at the very least watch KP as a player. Could he get better in the post? Of course, and he does get touches there. However, he just isn't that great at it. You guys really have some odd takes. You claim Luka turns him into a spot up 3 point shooter...but last night again, without Luka, he took 14 threes...and yet that isn't even mentioned. As has been explained by people following this team closely all year...it was/is going to take time to develop chemistry and KP coming off injury was not playing that well early in the year. However, he's been getting great shots all year and he's starting to make them.

As for Luka...he has a lot of room for improvement and should move the ball a bit quicker and should cut down on the step-back 3's a bit. But his offense, unless he somehow gets worse, is never going to be the problem. It will be his defense and the team defense.

I'll just keep saying this on repeat, I can't imagine a dumber take than going hard on a player/team that has the best offense in the league while playing with a new team around him...and the guy that he's apparently "shackling" is essentially putting up 20/10/2 on the best efficiency of his career and best offensive rating of his career...even with coming back from serious injury and taking quite a bit of time to get right.

Best offense in the league...and KP is probably playing the best offense of his career. Seriously, what kind of expectations are you people claiming to have had for this team to start the year?

I'm not sure where this idea really even started...that KP was a mere "onlooker"...etc. and wouldn't be able to develop as a player. Just objectively not true.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

But KP isn't a great post player. This is why you really need to watch the games or at the very least watch KP as a player. Could he get better in the post? Of course, and he does get touches there. However, he just isn't that great at it. You guys really have some odd takes. You claim Luka turns him into a spot up 3 point shooter...but last night again, without Luka, he took 14 threes...and yet that isn't even mentioned. As has been explained by people following this team closely all year...it was/is going to take time to develop chemistry and KP coming off injury was not playing that well early in the year. However, he's been getting great shots all year and he's starting to make them.

As for Luka...he has a lot of room for improvement and should move the ball a bit quicker and should cut down on the step-back 3's a bit. But his offense, unless he somehow gets worse, is never going to be the problem. It will be his defense and the team defense.

I'll just keep saying this on repeat, I can't imagine a dumber take than going hard on a player/team that has the best offense in the league while playing with a new team around him...and the guy that he's apparently "shackling" is essentially putting up 20/10/2 on the best efficiency of his career and best offensive rating of his career...even with coming back from serious injury and taking quite a bit of time to get right.

Best offense in the league...and KP is probably playing the best offense of his career. Seriously, what kind of expectations are you people claiming to have had for this team to start the year?

I'm not sure where this idea really even started...that KP was a mere "onlooker"...etc. and wouldn't be able to develop as a player. Just objectively not true.

KP doesnt need a great post game when hes 7'3 and face up and shoot over anyone without a contest affecting him. Theres maybe like 3 or 4 players in the league that can bother his shot straight up and one of em is Boban on his own team

[Haymaker]

In fact, KP's post game is terrible.


CWebb is just bitter that Dirk is going to always be viewed as the better player all time. I like KP but it's a complete joke to say he has a better post game than Dirk.

[dirkdiggler41]

Mavs will have s much better chance at winning a chip if they run their team scoring wise through porz. His skill set is much more conducive for scoring deep in the playoffs. It needs a little polishing but he has a better post game and mid range than luka and thats what is needed from your star to win multiple chips. This idea of the three ball being needed is fine an everything but if you look at pretty much every championship team in the last 30 yesrs they were lead by a great post player or great mid range guy, or both. Warriors in 15 is pretty much the only exception to this and that chip was a huge asterisk.

Rick Carlisle saying that its stupid to run your offense through the post is is a joke. His whole career hes been outcoached by a coach who's done this. Pop has won 5 chips lead by a star that had a great post and mid range. No porz isnt duncan in the post at the moment but hes only 24. If he works on and gets just half of duncans post and mid range game than the mavs would be a serious contender in a couple years given what luka can do also.

Its not like mavs are winning anytime soon anyway so why not work on the things that will help make you a championship team in the future because letting a 31% shooter spam a shit ton of step back threes isnt gonna help you win chips anytime soon.

So you think the coach that is running the best offense of all time as far as stats goes is wrong and he should do the opposite? The best offense with Tim Hardaway as your third option?

[kentatm]

I'm not sure where this idea really even started...that KP was a mere "onlooker"...etc. and wouldn't be able to develop as a player. Just objectively not true.

I think it started with people (for various reasons be it trolling, ignorance, annoyance at a 2nd year Euro quickly become a dominant offensive player, stanning for their favorite players, etc) trying to pin KP's poor early season play on Luka. It really took hold in late December when during a game on TNT Webber starting blathering about how KP needed to go into the post and then during the post game Shaq also went in on how he needed more post touches to be effective. Never mind that KP was coming back from a serious injury and not playing for nearly 2 years, or that the stats say they are both completely wrong about how Dallas is using KP, or that if you actually watch the games it's clear that KP is simply missing open shots in the times Luka is supposedly hurting him on which has far more to do with KP being a streaky shooter who didn't yet trust his legs or know the system well enough to do much more early in the season. As the season has gone along and he has learned the offense while gaining confidence in his legs he has clearly started to roll and drive far more when it's available. Even then it's very clear he still favors shooting jumpers.

The guy is having his most efficient season ever on a team with the most prolific offense in the league and yet people who blatantly don't watch Dallas seem to know how to fix something that isn't anywhere close to being a problem. If there is something else Dallas needs on offense it's a couple more players who can initiate and create offense for themselves. Brunson is ok at it but he is still a young player who top defenders can frustrate plus he is currently injured after getting assaulted with no call. JJB can do it but he's just too old (and also coming back from a serious injury last year) to rely on more more than 15 minutes a game here and there. Delon Wright has been disappointing when it comes to running offense, Curry is more of a spot up shooter, and THJr's efficiency is massively hurt when he is forced to create for everyone else. Also, losing Powell was a major blow b/c it makes it all the more important that KP does not get into foul trouble as Maxi is really the only other big who can play C for extended minutes and even he wears down if he has to go 30-35 a night.

All in all anyone who thinks the Luka/KP pairing or the way they are used together is a major issue in Dallas is flat out wrong and either doesn't watch the team regularly or is completely ignorant and myopic like Shaq when it comes to what you need to do in a modern offense to succeed.

[DMAVS41]

KP doesnt need a great post game when hes 7'3 and face up and shoot over anyone without a contest affecting him. Theres maybe like 3 or 4 players in the league that can bother his shot straight up and one of em is Boban on his own team

Not sure how this is relevant to my response to the claim that the Mavs should run the offense through KP in the post.

[90sgoat]

The fact is that KP is a more dominant scorer when he is streaking. He is able to go on quick scoring runs, due to his shooting, that Luka isn't.

This is something Mavs need to recognize and keep riding and feeding KP when he is on fire.

[Bronbron23]

So you think because he has the best offense in the regular season in a year where scoring is easy as hell means something? I dont. I bet you tbey wont have they best offence in the post season. Remember in 16 when the warriors were going absolutely insane in the regular season. Then they meet cle in the finals and there were games wher they struggled to score because all they had was the three ball.

And i wouldn't say hes wrong. I just think he should work at getting kp a better midrange and post game so that they're prepared for the playoffs. They can obviously still shoot the three ball, just dont fall in love with it and ignore other parts of the game.

[Mask the Embiid]

The fact is that KP is a more dominant scorer when he is streaking. He is able to go on quick scoring runs, due to his shooting, that Luka isn't.

This is something Mavs need to recognize and keep riding and feeding KP when he is on fire.

You secretly hate luka....just know that i know that you know that i know that you know :pimp:

I can see through right you 90sgoat :lol

[90sgoat]

So you think because he has the best offense in the regular season in a year where scoring is easy as hell means something? I dont. I bet you tbey wont have they best offence in the post season. Remember in 16 when the warriors were going absolutely insane in the regular season. Then they meet cle in the finals and there were games wher they struggled to score because all they had was the three ball.

And i wouldn't say hes wrong. I just think he should work at getting kp a better midrange and post game so that they're prepared for the playoffs. They can obviously still shoot the three ball, just dont fall in love with it and ignore other parts of the game.

Mavs are going to have a hard time in the playoffs.

They've gotten better, but they still get beat up when playing physical teams. The Heat game showed this yet again. They just don't have the toughness to compete physically game in and game out in the playoffs.

Which is why they can't have Luka taking defense off. Which is why Zingis should score and they should move the ball more, so that Luka can keep his energy for defense as well.

[Bronbron23]

I never said he had a great post game. I said he has more potential than luka to develop an effective post game. I acknowledged its not that great now and that he needs to improve it. If yall luka stans think mavs are winning a finals or even a conference finals by luka spamming a bunch of step back threes your insane. He's not even a great three point shooter and he'll struggle even more in the post season where defenders are allowed to actually play defense.

The warriors who have the two best three point shooters ever couldn't win a legit finals by doing this so why yall think luka and kp can? If the mavs want to be a serious contender they're gonna have to have a star player that has a more versatile game. Personally i think kp is better equipped to be that guy. Luka can still score he should just take on even more of a playmaking role.

[Bronbron23]

Yeah agreed. Been saying this for awhile now.

[DMAVS41]

I never said he had a great post game. I said he has more potential than luka to develop an effective post game. I acknowledged its not that great now and that he needs to improve it. If yall luka stans think mavs are winning a finals or even a conference finals by luka spamming a bunch of step back threes your insane. He's not even a great three point shooter and he'll struggle even more in the post season where defenders are allowed to actually play defense.

The warriors who have the two best three point shooters ever couldn't win a legit finals by doing this so why yall think luka and kp can? If the mavs want to be a serious contender they're gonna have to have a star player that has a more versatile game. Personally i think kp is better equipped to be that guy. Luka can still score he should just take on even more of a playmaking role.

Grading Luka or this Mavs team on whether or not they can win a title right now is about the dumbest standard one could adopt. They were something around +11000 entering the year to win the title and nobody with a brain has title or conference finals as the standard for this team.

In addition, I'm not...nor is any real Luka/Mavs fan...claiming that Luka is good enough or proven enough in his current state to lead a team to a title. Again, your standards are absurd for a just turned 21 year old in his 2nd year who hasn't even played a playoff game. We all agree Luka has flaws...he also happens to be an elite offensive player in his current form. His real flaws are on defense...again, he's not perfect on offense...but...he is already elite. You need to make peace with that.

KP is playing the right way. He's not remotely good enough in the post to warrant playing through him there. Should he and can he improve? Absolutely. I'd love to see both KP and Luka develop in the post this summer and into next year.

To a previous post. Yes, it does matter that Luka is leading the best offense in the league. To argue that doesn't matter is stupid. However, it is fair to say that it might not translate perfectly to the playoffs. But as nobody here is arguing it will...this seems like a non point.

As has been pointed out to you for some time now...KP was going to take some time. He's now taking even more 3's then when you guys were all calling him a mere onlooker or spot up shooter...and he's currently playing the best offense he's ever played in his career. He's being used fine. The take was dumb awhile ago...now it is just stupid.

Lastly, the problem with the Mavs is defense. They have a below average defense. Anyone fairly evaluating this team would start there. You don't...so you can't be taken seriously in my view.

[Bronbron23]

Im not just talking now im talking ever. If kp and luka smam threes the way the do and the way the coach seems to want them to they're never gonna win anything. They both need to develop there game. Of course kp's post game and mid range aren't great at the moment but you might as well start working on it now because as you say they're not gonna win anything anytime soon so why not start working on things now that will help you in the future?

And no it dosnt matter, its the regular season. All that matters is winning it all. You dont play for stats. Individual or team especially in the regular season. You just play to win.

And It dosnt matter how young or old they are. Im not judging either one based on their success this year. Im just telling you what they'll need to do to win in the future and they way the game is going and the way it seems the coach wants them to play i dont see it happening.

And yes defence matters. It wasnt brought up because that wasnt the basis of the topic. This dosnt help your case though when defending luka. This is a area where luka isnt very good. He has below average foot speed. I dont ever see him being a good defender. Ive heard people bring up bird in comparison as another slow footed player who was a good defender but that was in an era where you were allowed to be physical. Bird was a big strong guy he could hand check and gold guys off with his forearms and body. You cant do that in this era. You have to move you feet and luka will never be great at that. Can you tell me how many star players have won chips without being great defenders? Not many. Steph, dirk and magic are the only ones that come to mind in the last 40 years or so.

Look i like luka alot. Hes an amazing player especially at his age. Me pointing out his weakness dosn't mean i hate him. My favorite players right now are probably bron and greek and i talk about there flaws alot also.

[90sgoat]

Luka is a fully capable to above average defender when he tries, he just needs to be guarding forwards and not guards. He is very good at defending small forwards and smaller power forwards.

Ideally you'd have someone like Iggy playing small forward, which is what they're trying with DFS.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, tell us more how a team that isn't currently built to win the title...with one of the best 21 year old players in the history of the NBA...will never win a title.

Not too long ago the idiotic narrative was the Luka and KP just can't play together. Now, KP is probably having the best year of his career and has looked great both with Luka on and off the court.

But, of course, lets put a ceiling on what a team can do...even though the team in question will have to have a number of different players in order to contend in the first place.

[Bronbron23]

Its just a prediction dude. Its not that serious. Of course i could be wrong although i dont think i will. Not with luka being the main scorer anyway, especially if hes gonna take close to 10 threes a game. If you wanna predict how successful luka will be just look at harden. A ball dominant great offensive player who dosnt defend well. A guy who shoots alot of tought step back threes or gets all the way to the hole. He dosnt use the post or midrange much. Come playoff time when defenses are allowed to play real defence he's a little less effective because he cant finish as easy as he could in the regular season so now all he really has is his inconsistent step back three. The same thing is gonna happen to luka come playoff time. Hes gonna struggle to finish at the rim and settle for tough step back threes. Like harden i expect his scoring qnd efficiency to drop some.

This isnt a ceiling dude. Its just a prediction based on what ive seen from him. Im not saying he cant overcome this i just dont think he will.

So its not that i dont think he's good enough to win a title. I just dont think he will. Plus i dont think he'll ever be as good as greek and thats who he'll be up against for the next decade. If greek didnt exist id say luka could probably win a few chips. As its looking now though greek will always be better than luka. Hes as good offensively but way better on the other end. Hes also much tougher. Greek is cut from the same cloth as bird, mj and kobe mentally while luka is more soft.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not sure you understand.

Plenty of some of the best players of all-time never won and virtually all won only with elite help.

So I'm not going to talk about whether Luka can win a title until he has title level help and plays multiple playoff series.

Regardless, the notion that KP is being diminished or shackled is false. The notion that he's a mere onlooker (can't remember who said that...might not have been you) simply hasn't turned on a game beyond the first few. Just an ignorant take.

The standard here, again, is absurd. He's not MJ/Kobe/Bird/Giannis....seriously...what?

How successful Luka will be is based on Harden? For starters, I don't even think that is true, but Harden has been super successful...he's been printing 50 win seasons and led one of the better teams to not win a title in NBA history. Not even a Harden guy really, but if you give him the best players...not sure he loses.

[Bronbron23]

I never said kp is diminished by luka though. All i said was for them to be best prepared to win chips one of them should get a post and mid range game. I personally think kp's skill set is better equipped to be elite in both areas even though right now hes mediocre in both.

And not talking anything drastic. Luka coukd just shoot 3 or 4 less threes a game and facilitate even more. It would look something like luka having 25/10 and kp having 30 pts a game. Luka could still be the leader and best player its just that kp would score a little more.

As far as harden i guess we differ on what success is. Im speaking relatively of course. Every nba player is successful when compared to regular people. The ones who are all stars and MVP's even more so. Harden like luka is an elite player though. Theyre on a much higher standard. When your as good as them success is measured by championships. Or it should be anyway. This is why mj and kobe are known for that mumba mentality. Nothing matter but winning.

But yeah in general of course harden is successful and luka is already successful at only 21.

[FKAri]

I never said kp is diminished by luka though. All i said was for them to be best prepared to win chips one of them should get a post and mid range game. I personally think kp's skill set is better equipped to be elite in both areas even though right now hes mediocre in both.

And not talking anything drastic. Luka coukd just shoot 3 or 4 less threes a game and facilitate even more. It would look something like luka having 25/10 and kp having 30 pts a game. Luka could still be the leader and best player its just that kp would score a little more.

As far as harden i guess we differ on what success is. Im speaking relatively of course. Every nba player is successful when compared to regular people. The ones who are all stars and MVP's even more so. Harden like luka is an elite player though. Theyre on a much higher standard. When your as good as them success is measured by championships. Or it should be anyway. This is why mj and kobe are known for that mumba mentality. Nothing matter but winning.

But yeah in general of course harden is successful and luka is already successful at only 21.

There's people for whom nothing matters but winning but they still don't win despite the talent. If the Pau trade never happens and management sat on their ass resulting in Kobe ending with 0 FMVP, you wouldn't be talking about him having the mamba mentality. I think Harden's performed quite well the last couple playoffs after some duds but people have overlooked it because the end result was the same. Though, I don't see Houston winning anything in this era because we've seen how stingy their owner is. Anytime they can sacrifice expenses for success, they do.

[DMAVS41]

It depends.

If a player is capable of doing those things...then by all means. But maybe, to take KP, he's never going to develop a reliable post game that you'd be able to run things through consistently. I think Luka actually has a better chance to develop a post-game...Luka can bully smaller guards down there and has better footwork. KP looks really uncomfortable unless he's facing up. But again...he already gets quite a bit of touches in his sweet spots and will only get more comfortable.

Regardless though...what makes you think players can't develop their games outside of what happens during the NBA season in games? I'm really surprised by this notion that the only way a player develops is to in-game. I don't agree with that and actually think most development comes off court in that sense.

If you are a first ballot hall of famer and going to go down, at worst, as one of the 50 best players ever...you are successful in relation to other NBA players. What are you talking about? Successful related to regular people...that isn't what I'm saying at all. James Harden is one of the best players of all-time. If every new great young player was a lock to be top 10 all time...there would be no top 10 all-time.

Your standards are absurd.

[DMAVS41]

There's people for whom nothing matters but winning but they still don't win despite the talent. If the Pau trade never happens and management sat on their ass resulting in Kobe ending with 0 FMVP, you wouldn't be talking about him having the mamba mentality. I think Harden's performed quite well the last couple playoffs after some duds but people have overlooked it because the end result was the same. Though, I don't see Houston winning anything in this era because we've seen how stingy their owner is. Anytime they can sacrifice expenses for success, they do.

Yep.

If Paul doesn't get hurt...Rockets likely win title.

Or, how about just flipping Klay for Ariza...Rockets for sure win...and this whole narrative thing doesn't fit.

I can't believe people still put this much emphasis on titles when virtually all titles are won by absurdly stacked teams in relation to teams like this current Mavs team.

[Bronbron23]

There's people for whom nothing matters but winning but they still don't win despite the talent. If the Pau trade never happens and management sat on their ass resulting in Kobe ending with 0 FMVP, you wouldn't be talking about him having the mamba mentality. I think Harden's performed quite well the last couple playoffs after some duds but people have overlooked it because the end result was the same. Though, I don't see Houston winning anything in this era because we've seen how stingy their owner is. Anytime they can sacrifice expenses for success, they do.

Thats a tough comparison so its hard to say but i dont think lakers would of won with harden in place of kobe. That mumba mentality applies to every part of the game including defence.

Harden is sick but i het the vibe that hes playing for MVP's and scoring titles as much as hes playing to win. I think hes content with that.

And its not like he hasn't had good teams the last few years hes had very good teams.

[FKAri]

Thats a tough comparison so its hard to say but i dont think lakers would of won with harden in place of kobe. That mumba mentality applies to every part of the game including defence.

Harden is sick but i het the vibe that hes playing for MVP's and scoring titles as much as hes playing to win. I think hes content with that.

And its not like he hasn't had good teams the last few years hes had very good teams.

I am inclined to agree. A better example would be Chris Paul. I have no doubt about his competitiveness and mentality but what does he have to show for it?

[Bronbron23]

I am inclined to agree. A better example would be Chris Paul. I have no doubt about his competitiveness and mentality but what does he have to show for it?

Yeah cp has that mentality but hes only 6'3 with limited athleticism. Harden is 6'5 and pretty strong and athletic. Having a killer intinct and desire to win is important but so is other things like size and athleticism. Theres not many guys under 6'5 thats won chips as the man on the team. Steph, isiah and maybe billups if you consider him the man on that Detroit team are the only ones thst come to mind.

[ImKobe]

Yep.

If Paul doesn't get hurt...Rockets likely win title.

Or, how about just flipping Klay for Ariza...Rockets for sure win...and this whole narrative thing doesn't fit.

I can't believe people still put this much emphasis on titles when virtually all titles are won by absurdly stacked teams in relation to teams like this current Mavs team.

That's not really true with all titles in the modern era, the greatest players won even when the talent wasn't heavily in their favor. Hakeem in '94 & '95, Jordan in '98 or Shaq/Kobe in 01 & 02 or Duncan in 03 or Kobe in 2009-2010 or the Mavs in 2011. You can't tell me those guys had that much more talent compared to the rest of the league when looking at those 8-man rotations. Sure, there are some horribly-run franchises that never win titles or even make the Finals, but that's the case in most team sports. There have been plenty of stacked/great teams that never won a championship, whether we look at the Stockton/Malone Jazz or the mid-90s Suns or the late 90s Lakers or the '02 Kings or the mid-2000s Mavs & Suns or the 2010-16 Thunder or the CP3/Blake Clippers or the Harden era Rockets. Sixers had all the talent in the world & what did it get them the last two seasons?

Some players just get it done in the biggest moments on a consistent basis and they should get more credit for it compared to those who didn't. Guess what, players also have a better chance at winning other accolades on better teams. Most MVP winners have had great teams around them with a few exceptions, players get left out of the All-Star Game due to their teams not being good enough despite their individual talents. Should we not put as much emphasis on advanced stats as well, since most players benefit a lot in that area when playing with better teammates?

[Bronbron23]

Yep.

If Paul doesn't get hurt...Rockets likely win title.

Or, how about just flipping Klay for Ariza...Rockets for sure win...and this whole narrative thing doesn't fit.

I can't believe people still put this much emphasis on titles when virtually all titles are won by absurdly stacked teams in relation to teams like this current Mavs team.

If u flip klay for ariza its literally no different on thst houston team. The warriors and klay are successful because of atg on and off ball movement. Klay flourishes in that environment. Put klay on that houston team and hes standing around alot waiting for the a pass while harden and cp dribble the life out of the ball.

And all titles are not won by absurdly stacked teams. 91 and 98 bulls weren't. Bad boy pistons, 94 and 95 rockets werent, 2000's pistons, 06 heat, kobes lakers, 11 mavs, 16 cavs and 19 raps. Thats like 13 teams in a 35 year period and im probably missing a few.

[DMAVS41]

If u flip klay for ariza its literally no different on thst houston team. The warriors and klay are successful because of atg on and off ball movement. Klay flourishes in that environment. Put klay on that houston team and hes standing around alot waiting for the a pass while harden and cp dribble the life out of the ball.

And all titles are not won by absurdly stacked teams. 91 and 98 bulls weren't. Bad boy pistons, 94 and 95 rockets werent, 2000's pistons, 06 heat, kobes lakers, 11 mavs, 16 cavs and 19 raps. Thats like 13 teams in a 35 year period and im probably missing a few.

So, just to be clear...you don't think Klay Thompson's shooting would have made the Rockets a more difficult team to guard? I just want to see how far you go in terms of ignoring that the best players usually win.

Probably a reading comprehension issue with you, but just to be clear again...you think the current Mavs team is on par with the teams you listed? Because if you could read...you'd have read that I said absurdly stacked in relation to this current Mavs team.

Not to mention that most of the teams you listed had some of the best players of all-time playing at their peak/prime with at least one all-star level player around them...sometimes multiple. In addition, you forgot probably the best example outside of the 94 Rockets with the 03 Spurs.

You seem...a bit ignorant here.

The fact that you think this Mavs team should even remotely compare to any of those teams is truly insane. If you don't think this Mavs team is even close to any of the weaker champions according to you...then why are you talking about this team in terms of winning the title?

But, yes....tell us more how old Ariza is just as good as prime Klay Thompson...because of "system"...and a series that went 7 wouldn't be changed at all from removing an elite player from one team and putting him on the other. Keep going...you are making so much sense.

In addition, please educate us on all these teams that should have won the title, but lost because they played the wrong style. Must be a lot...

[Bronbron23]

So, just to be clear...you don't think Klay Thompson's shooting would have made the Rockets a more difficult team to guard? I just want to see how far you go in terms of ignoring that the best players usually win.

Probably a reading comprehension issue with you, but just to be clear again...you think the current Mavs team is on par with the teams you listed? Because if you could read...you'd have read that I said absurdly stacked in relation to this current Mavs team.

Not to mention that most of the teams you listed had some of the best players of all-time playing at their peak/prime with at least one all-star level player around them...sometimes multiple. In addition, you forgot probably the best example outside of the 94 Rockets with the 03 Spurs.

You seem...a bit ignorant here.

The fact that you think this Mavs team should even remotely compare to any of those teams is truly insane. If you don't think this Mavs team is even close to any of the weaker champions according to you...then why are you talking about this team in terms of winning the title?

But, yes....tell us more how old Ariza is just as good as prime Klay Thompson...because of "system"...and a series that went 7 wouldn't be changed at all from removing an elite player from one team and putting him on the other. Keep going...you are making so much sense.

In addition, please educate us on all these teams that should have won the title, but lost because they played the wrong style. Must be a lot...
No they wouldn't be that much better with klay. Again your missing why klay is so successful. The warriors on and off ball movement fits klays skill set perfectly. You put klay in a system where he hes basically spotting up waiting for a pass or hes forced to iso and score and klay isnt klay. The only people on that rockets team that score around 20 or more are players that can get their own shot. That isnt klays game and between harden, cp and gorden who are all ball handlers how much rock is klay getting? Plus klay would be miserable on that team. He hates iso ball. Just look back at his reactions when kd would do it from time to time. Imagine him with harden lol.


And yes most of those players are atg players and yes alot of the times the best players win but you said absurdly stacked. Even in relation to the mavs their not absurdly stacked. Maybe more seasoned and smarter because luka and kp are young but their not absurdly stack by any means. On the bulls teams i mentioned how are they absurdly stacked compared to the mavs? You have mj and pip and mavs have luka and kp. Outside of that either team isnt that amazing. You could bring up rod in 98 but he was old and nowhere near his prime. What about Hakeems rockets? How are they absurdly stacked compared to mavs? I could do this with almost every team i mentioned dude.

[DMAVS41]

No they wouldn't be that much better with klay. Again your missing why klay is so successful. The warriors on and off ball movement fits klays skill set perfectly. You put klay in a system where he hes basically spotting up waiting for a pass or hes forced to iso and score and klay isnt klay. The only people on that rockets team that score around 20 or more are players that can get their own shot. That isnt klays game and between harden, cp and gorden who are all ball handlers how much rock is klay getting? Plus klay would be miserable on that team. He hates iso ball. Just look back at his reactions when kd would do it from time to time. Imagine him with harden lol.


What about Hakeems rockets? How are they absurdly stacked compared to mavs? I could do this with almost every team i mentioned dude.

Klay Thompson is successful because he's a great basketball player. The fact that you can't even concede that Klay is better than old Ariza is amazing. You really need to stop with the style/system shit. It does matter, but what matters way more is how good the players actually are. And in a very tight series...the notion that the Warriors losing a great player and the Rockets adding the player...not mattering...is just dumb.

You could do it with every team you mentioned? Okay, sorry, but there is no point in talking with someone this ignorant.

Do you really not understand how much better the likes of MJ/Pippen, Hakeem/Clyde, Kobe/Gasol, Wade/Shaq...are than Luka/KP???????? Are you actually equating them? Please tell me you are just trolling. Luka and KP haven't even ****ing played a playoff game...not together...not separate. Neither of them have played one playoff game. Luka just turned 21.

I won't even touch the 98 Bulls...who had one of the best players ever...if not the best...and had the 5th best teammate rating of all finals teams from 85 through 2015.

Forget that though. Just take the 3 teams we will all agree the star didn't have a ton of help. The 94 Rockets, 03 Spurs, and 11 Mavs.

In each of those cases. Hakeem/Duncan/Dirk...absolutely shit on Luka right now. It isn't even remotely close. You had 3 of the best players of all-time arguably playing the best basketball of their careers. All of them seasoned playoff warriors with tons of experience. Even on the weakest teams it isn't close because a 21 year old Luka isn't even remotely close to as good as any of them.

Like, do you really not understand that how good the star player is...matters?

So, no, stop this bullshit please.

And what is really crazy...is that you are claiming Luka won't ever win...then turn around and compare him favorably to some of the best players of all-time. Saying this Mavs team, I can only assume if you disagree with me, is somewhere in the ballpark of the teams you mentioned.

Shit, just take the Raptors last year. Leonard is better than Luka and it isn't close...and the Raptors had a way better supporting cast than Luka has. So, how are they equal? How are they similar? You really think this Mavs team could go 17-5 without Luka like the Raptors did last year without Leonard? Or you think they could be 43-18 without Luka this year?

Like, I really don't know what you are talking about. You aren't making sense.

[Bronbron23]

Thats way to much to read and your way to intense dude. As usual we're not gonna agree. Just a heads up though. Your destined to be forever disappointed by luka, stuck yelling at the tv as luka takes step back three after step back three all while playing mediocre defence and losing tough playoff series after tough playoff series.

Ill bump this shit 10 years from now when greek is sitting on his 5th title all while luka is still working on getting his first.

[tontoz]

Before the season this was seen as a rebuilding year for the Mavs. Vegas predicted 39.5-41 wins. Let's not pretend like they were expected to be title contenders.

https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/mavericks/2019/07/29/hail-caesar-preseason-las-vegas-projections-have-the-mavericks-win-total-improving-modestly-in-2019-2020/

[90sgoat]

Thats way to much to read and your way to intense dude. As usual we're not gonna agree. Just a heads up though. Your destined to be forever disappointed by luka, stuck yelling at the tv as luka takes step back three after step back three all while playing mediocre defence and losing tough playoff series after tough playoff series.

Ill bump this shit 10 years from now when greek is sitting on his 5th title all while luka is still working on getting his first.

This was a reasonable take until you think greek will have 5 titles let alone one.

Giannis is way too unskilled to win even one title.

[DMAVS41]

Thats way to much to read and your way to intense dude. As usual we're not gonna agree. Just a heads up though. Your destined to be forever disappointed by luka, stuck yelling at the tv as luka takes step back three after step back three all while playing mediocre defence and losing tough playoff series after tough playoff series.

Ill bump this shit 10 years from now when greek is sitting on his 5th title all while luka is still working on getting his first.

Yes, the old excuse of a post that takes 1 minute to read is too long. You a are on a message board posting enough to care.

Luka could fail to ever get better and I'll be satisfied. He's already giving my franchise way more than his EV. Never once have I thought we are guaranteed a title or that he'd be the best player in the league. So, for a guy you don't think is that great, you certainly seem to have some high expectations. Not to mention that most players, even all-time great ones, lose playoff series after playoff series....so not sure your point here.

You'll bump what? Nothing here you've said is interesting. You've just said a bunch of false things about team strength and style.

Nothing that happens will ever change that fact. At no point in the future is your take that Luka/KP should have the same expectations in the year 2020 as some of the best duos in NBA history going to make sense.

But, when you have the time, tell me more about how this Mavs team is as good as the Raptors last year....I'm dying to hear it.

[Rudeboy3]

This was a reasonable take until you think greek will have 5 titles let alone one.

Giannis is way too unskilled to win even one title.

troll

[Bronbron23]

Thats fair i get why people would think that. His game isnt complete enough at the moment to win chips without another superstar next to him. Hes working on it though and he has the drive and desire to get better. Another year or 2 working on his mid range and post play and he'll be ready.

[Bronbron23]

No the mavs arnt as talented as last years raps. Last years raps had to 2 guys that were much more versatile than both kp and luka. They could also play elite defense. They were deeper also. But thats just it this will always be the case, especially with luka. Hes on the same road as harden. A great offensive player that dosnt have the versatility to dominate deep in the post season against good physical playoff defenses. Spamming tough step back threes isnt gonna get it done. The mediocre defense they play dosnt help either. You'll see that this playoffs and future playoffs to come.

And I never said anything about the mavs now. I was talking about them in the future. I know they're young. My original take was just that they wont be able to win chips with luka as there best scorer. That should be kp. I dont think that will be the case though and thats why i think they'll never win a chip. You obviously dont like that take because you have some weird obsession with luka and thats why your always defending him.

And when the clippers win this year its not gonna be because they have the best players. Its gonna be because they dont play a ball dominant style. They move the ball. They'll also have 2 players that have great post game and mid range to score in tight halfcourt physical playoff games. They also play elite defense. This is blueprint for almost all championship teams. Winning with a ball dominant guy who spams bad threes and dosnt have a post game or midrange and dosnt play defense isnt.

[MrFonzworth]

troll

He's right though Manny.

[DMAVS41]

I don't like putting limits on 21 year old players that are already elite before they even play a playoff game. Call me crazy. Not sure what you mean by "on the same road as Harden" as if it would be a negative. Again, Harden is one of the best players ever and he was a Chris Paul injury away from winning the title. Give Harden the best players on his team and he's going to win. Not as much as the guys that are better, but he's clearly good enough to win if you gave him Warriors level help...in fact, he's proven enough to say he doesn't even need close to that really.

And I'm not dumb enough to judge players so heavily on titles, which again, are largely dependent on how good of teammates players get.

The Clippers don't have the best players? Which team has better players than the Clippers?

And no, it won't always be the case with Luka. Hell, right now, if you put Covington, Tucker, and Chris Paul on the Mavs...they could win a title this year with Luka playing at a slightly worse level.

I'll ask again...please list all the teams that had the best players, but didn't win due to their style of play. This must be really common...please list them all.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

I don't like putting limits on 21 year old players that are already elite before they even play a playoff game. Call me crazy. Not sure what you mean by "on the same road as Harden" as if it would be a negative. Again, Harden is one of the best players ever and he was a Chris Paul injury away from winning the title. Give Harden the best players on his team and he's going to win. Not as much as the guys that are better, but he's clearly good enough to win if you gave him Warriors level help...in fact, he's proven enough to say he doesn't even need close to that really.

And I'm not dumb enough to judge players so heavily on titles, which again, are largely dependent on how good of teammates players get.

The Clippers don't have the best players? Which team has better players than the Clippers?

And no, it won't always be the case with Luka. Hell, right now, if you put Covington, Tucker, and Chris Paul on the Mavs right now...they could win a title this year with Luka playing at a slightly worse level.

I'll ask again...please list all the teams that had the best players, but didn't win due to their style of play. This must be really common...please list them all.

This Mavs team is stacked brah

Jalen is a tier 1 backup PG.

Tim Hardaway is a great 3rd option

Seth is one of the best shooters in the league

Kleber is developing into a top tier 3&D big and can even put it on the floor a little. He just completely shut down Zion

KP looks like an All NBA 1st team big in the games without Luka

DFS is emerging as one of the best perimeter defenders in the game

Theres a reason the Mavs have a 5.42 SRS in the games without Luka

[DMAVS41]

This Mavs team is stacked brah

Jalen is a tier 1 backup PG.

Tim Hardaway is a great 3rd option

Seth is one of the best shooters in the league

Kleber is developing into a top tier 3&D big and can even put it on the floor a little. He just completely shut down Zion

KP looks like an All NBA 1st team big in the games without Luka

DFS is emerging as one of the best perimeter defenders in the game

Theres a reason the Mavs have a 5.42 SRS in the games without Luka

They are good. Not stacked.

In order to be stacked they'd need someone like CP3 at point and at least one elite wing defender with more size than DFS.

Calling this team stacked is silly when there are a number of teams with better players.

[tontoz]

This Mavs team is stacked brah

Jalen is a tier 1 backup PG.

Tim Hardaway is a great 3rd option

Seth is one of the best shooters in the league

Kleber is developing into a top tier 3&D big and can even put it on the floor a little. He just completely shut down Zion

KP looks like an All NBA 1st team big in the games without Luka

DFS is emerging as one of the best perimeter defenders in the game

Theres a reason the Mavs have a 5.42 SRS in the games without Luka


Why didn't Vegas predict them to have a winning record, brah? They know a lot more than you.

Do you think it is just a coincidence that Hardaway and Curry are having career years?

[DMAVS41]

So, here is what we've learned apparently in this thread;

1. Luka has shackled KP. Somehow, even with just making KP a mere "onlooker" and spamming 3's...KP is having the best offensive year of his career. Made even more impressive after the slow start and the fact that he's on a winning team.

2. It doesn't matter that a team has an elite offense...winning is what matters. Somehow scoring points more effectively than your opponent doesn't help win games. A great take if I've ever heard one.

3. Luka will never win because he's not that good and he's flawed. Somehow, however, he and KP as a duo should have the same expectations as some of the best players of all-time playing on better teams. Makes sense.

4. The Mavericks are stacked. They have one all-star player...two if KP is able to keep this up...and some good role players. Plenty of teams have better players. Not sure what the point is here...but I doubt anyone actually believes this team is stacked.

5. Plenty of teams have failed to win the title with the best players because of style. Still waiting on that exhaustive list...

6. Being on the same road as James Harden is apparently bad. Reality is that Harden is one of the best players ever.

7. Klay Thompson is only good because of the system he plays in and in reality is no better than old Ariza. Of course, this is just obvious.

Please, teach us more.

[Bronbron23]

Of course you need good players to win. I never said you dont. All im saying is all other things being equal a team that emphasis on and off ball movement and will beat a team that has a system that revolves around one guy dominating the ball. And if all thing are equal including the system a team that has great players that have an elite mid range and post game will beat a team that have great players that dont. You can also throw defence in that scenario as well.

And plenty of teams have lost with equal or better teams because of there style of play. Ill try to focus on series where the best player played a more ball dominant role. Mj's bulls against bad boys. Brons cavs against howads magic. Brons heat in 11 and 14 finals. Kobe's lakers in 08 vs the celtics. 2016 warriors vs rockets. This is one of the best examples because warriors didnt have there best player and debatably best player in the league and they still destroyed the rockets. Harden was by farthe best player on the floor and had a comparable team and they still got mashed. 2015 okc vs warriors is another clear example of movement and system beating a team that emphasis more ball dominant isolation. Okc was absolutely stacked with talent. They were way better, bigger and more athletic than the warriors and they still lost. 2017 spurs vs rockets.

Anyway. Obviously lots of teams win because they have better players. Ive never argued that. All im saying is all things being equal a team that emphasis movement will more times than not beat a team that emphasis one guy over dribbling and being the system more or less. This is just bball 101 dude i dont even know why your arguing it.

[DMAVS41]

I disagree with almost all of your examples.

In addition, you can't look at a series that is essentially a toss up in terms of teams and then pretend like one team had definitively better players to suit your agenda.

The 11 Finals are a terrible example. Yes, the Heat had better players, but they didn't play Lebron-ball at all...in fact, one could argue that upset happened precisely because the Heat didn't lean into Lebron's style. At best, the 08 Finals was a tossup...using that Celtics win as evidence that if the Lakers had just played a different style they would have won...is just silly.

Also, broadly speaking...the problem with this level of analysis only focuses on offense and not on defense. You brought up the 14 Finals, but fail to even realize that the Heat lost in large part because their team defense was not good...and this is my problem with your "takes"...you seemingly equate everything to just offense...and even more specifically...style of offense. When in reality we all know you are missing a huge part of the analysis.

Meh, that Rockets team in 16 wasn't very good. They played horrible defense.

The Thunder didn't make the playoffs in 15, so not sure what you are talking about. If you are talking about 16...just no. That is a tossup series...in no way would you argue that the Thunder had demonstrably better players. Hell, people like you think Harden/Russ aren't very good...so why do they become so good when you need them to be for a flawed argument?

Until you learn that team defense matters...and that the players that produce quality team defense matter...your analysis will always be flawed.

You list the 17 Rockets/Spurs series...again, if it was just an offensive contest...the Rockets would win...they were better offensively...the difference between those teams was not offense...it was defense. The Rockets played poor defense and the Spurs played elite defense. Again, why do you ignore that?

[Bronbron23]

This is some bs bro

1. I think only one or 2 people ssid luka shackled kp. Most rational people dont think this. Saying kp should be the main scorer isnt saying that.

2. No having one of the greatest regular season offenses ever dosnt mean shit at the moment. Its just the regular season. If they can continue that into the post season and it helps them win a chip then yeah it matters. If they lose in the first round what in the hell would having one of the best offensive ever be worth? You think a competitor like luka after he loses is still gonna be satisfied because they had one of the best offenses ever on paper? Ill answer the question for you no he won't.

3. I dont think anyone said hes not tbat good. Hes very good one of the best in the world. And the expectations should be absolutely to win a chip. Actually its people like you who've set that expectation by saying hes an mvp caliber player and hes the best 21 year old ever. So an mvp caliber player that has another star next to him and a decent enough supporting cast shouldn't have expectations to win. Thats b.s bro. Either luka is that good or he isnt. You cant have it both ways.

4. No tha mavs arnt stacked but they're pretty good. Like i just said, any mvp caliber player that has another star and a decent supporting cast is a pretty good team.

5. I already replied with a list. And its simple all things being equal a team with more ball movement and team system will beat a team that dosnt. That bball 101. You obviously didnt take that course.

6. Being on the same road as harden isnt bad but if your goal is to win chips there's better roads to take.

7.klay isnt just good because of the system hes obviously a great player. That said the rockets would be a terrible fit for him. Anyone who knows ball knows this and knows why. Im not surprised you dont get it.

[DMAVS41]

How Luka was playing very early this year was absolutely MVP caliber, but that is about all I've ever said. In fact, I've argued against Luka more than for him. And you know that if you've read anything in my posts here...he's really good, but not on the short list of best players. My issue with you here is that you are putting silly expectations on a team/player that have no business being compared to the kind of players/teams you have been.

Saying that KP should be the main scorer is pretty dumb unless he dramatically improves his efficiency and ability to create for his teammates. Taking the ball out of Luka's hands more would not be smart given the current makeup of this team. Again your focus is so narrow...Luka has made a huge impact on other players on the team by getting them great shot after great shot.

I disagree with most of your list and you continue to pretend offense is all that matters for teams. Hey guys, the Mavs aren't that good because of Luka ball...then a rational person responds and says...yea, kind of, he can improve, but the team is elite offensively...it is actually the defense that is costing them wins and preventing them from truly contending...then you respond with incoherent babble about style while yet again ignoring defense.

Better roads to take than being one of the best players of all-time? Not for virtually all players ever. We get it, you don't like Harden...it doesn't change the fact that he's historically elite.

No, the Rockets wouldn't be a terrible fit or a player that is one of the best shooters of all time and can defend at a high level. In fact, he'd fit in just fine. Not hard to comprehend...and, again, he's better than Ariza...which you seem to not grasp either.

[90sgoat]

Luka is slowing down now, ironically because he is handling the ball so much.

He should play more off ball, to conserve energy, not just for defense but to last the entire season.

[DMAVS41]

Luka is slowing down now, ironically because he is handling the ball so much.

He should play more off ball, to conserve energy, not just for defense but to last the entire season.

He's putting up 27/10/9 since he's come back from injury. The team is 5-2 in that time. He's coming off a 30/17/10 game. Again, unless the standard is best player in the league...this kid is destroying realistic expectations.

[Doranku]

Hard to find fault in a guy who is having one of the best sophomore seasons of all-time, but he does need to chill with the threes. 9 a game on below 32% isn't going to cut it in the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

Hard to find fault in a guy who is having one of the best sophomore seasons of all-time, but he does need to chill with the threes. 9 a game on below 32% isn't going to cut it in the playoffs.

Yep, he's got tangible things to improve upon.

I'd like to see him stop crying and complaining so much to the refs. Super tilting...even as a fan of him and the team.

[tontoz]

Other than jacking too many 3s there isn't much to criticize in Luka's offensive game. He is crazy good.

While he does handle the ball a lot he really doesn't play like Harden. He doesn't spend nearly as much time dribbling without actually going anywhere. He is on the move with his eyes up when he is dribbling which puts a lot of pressure on the defense.

[90sgoat]

Saying that Luka should play more off ball is not calling him out, but wishing Luka to be even better.

If he makes that give and go with Porzingis a frequent thing, he will be even better. Same with if he becomes just a capable midrange jump shooter, able to get hand offs from the post.

I mean, he can have a great career without, but then you're stuck as Harden/Lebron, but he doesn't have the physical skills of Lebron.

[Bronbron23]

Im not putting expectations on him to win. That should be his and the mavs expectation though as im sure it is. Me saying he wont win chips is just a prediction based on what i see from him and his team. If anything i dont have expectations of him and the mavs because of this. And me saying he wont win chips because of his defence,shot selection and lack of scoring versatility dosnt mean i think he isnt good. I think hes crazy good. He just has some things to work if he wants to win chips and based on what i see im not sure he will work on them or if he even can.

And making kp the main scorer is not silly. You say he needs to be more efficient meanwhile luka spams almost 10 3's a game on mediocre efficiency. He finishes at a high percentage because hes very crafty and the rules allow for it but the rules arnt enforced as much in the post season. Your gonna see how Lukas gonna struggle to get into the lane and finish and then what is he left with? A mediocre three point shot? Kp shoots the three better than luka. He also has the size and skill set to be better in the mid range and post area. Not talking anything drastic either. Just a couple points difference. Luka scoring 25 and kp scoring 28 or something. Of course with luka still ball handling more than kp and being the primary playmaker.

And ive acknowledged the defence part. Of course its a factor. Luka not being a great defender is one of my reasons why i said he'll wont win chips. Most chips are won woth the best player being a good to great defender. Luka either dosnt try on that end or is just to slow footed to be good at it. Either way you cant just say the mavs arnt good enough because of defence without putting alot of the blame on their leader and worse defender.

And Hareden is not one of the best players ever unless you considera a top 100 player one of the best ever. Hes not in the top 50 all time. You could put a bunch of people in the history of the game in dantoni's system and they would have ridiculous stats and a couple MVP's. They'd also have no chips though too. His system is great for the ball handlers stats and team regular season offensive numbers but not so much for winning. Its to reliant on one guy. If that one guy is having a bad day the chances of winning are very low. So if one of the best ever means hes say the 60th best player ever id agree with that. 60th best player ever is still pretty damn good.

And of course having klay on the rockets would be good for them. Who wouldn't want one of the best three and d players ever. How much rock does he get next to harden and westbrook though? How happy would he be? Hed be absolutely miserable on that team. I can guarantee to you that. Maybe if he started his career there he wouldn't care because he wouldn't know any better but going from one of the best ball moving teams ever to one of the worse would suck if winning and team ball is what you like and used to.

[90sgoat]

If Luka played full on, great defense now, I would say Mavs were already a real contender.

As it stands now, Mavs will get bullied against Clippers, Boston, Utah and other physical teams. I just don't see how they win against such a team.

[DMAVS41]

Of course the franchise is trying to win. I'm saying that putting a ceiling on a player/team at this point is silly. Why? Because he's not close to a finished product as a player and the team is not close to being built out to win a title. So saying "he'll never win" at this point just doesn't make sense. He could pull a Durant and go join up with a team that guarantees him multiple titles. Just doesn't make sense. Just like it is a total non point to say he's got some things to work on. No shit he does...has anyone ever said he doesn't have things he can improve upon?

Yes, it is silly to feature KP more than Luka. Luka is the driving force on this team and you not understanding that shows you haven't watched much. Luka has made life so easy on players like Curry/DFS/Maxi/Powell/THJ...etc. You say Luka has mediocre efficiency, but he's far more efficient as a scorer than KP and does so on higher volume while taking more difficult shots and bailing out the team...while also being responsible for creating shots for teammates. Is he perfect? Again, of course not. Nobody has ever said he is. He takes too many 3's and doesn't move the ball a few times a game in favor of an iso on a switch that isn't that productive. But, end of the day, he's scoring consistently on quality efficiency and his teammates are thriving while producing a great offense. Asking for more than that in year 2 of a career seems quite unfair...especially when said team is exceeding all expectations to date and especially when the real problem with him and the team is defense.

Luka will never be an elite defender. He could get better, but no matter how hard he works or tries...he'll never be a great defender...probably won't ever be considered good either, but it is possible. I don't think you need a player like him to be a great defender. Nash was a far worse defender and could have won titles as the best player with some better constructed rosters for him and or a few breaks. Luka will be a better defender/rebounder than Nash for sure.

I disagree on Harden. Not even that high on him. He'll go down as a top 50 player ever.

But, again...you mostly just talk about offense. Saying things like "KP should be featured more"...etc. Why focus on that when the real problem of this team is defense? Why bring up series in the past when it was the defense, not the offense that cost them the series. You say the team defense matters when pushed, but completely ignore when you actually do an analysis of things. Like I said before, if you gave this team Covington and Tucker...the offense would still be elite and the defense would be significantly improved. So I need to see a properly built team with multiple years of playoff experience before I start saying things about "can't ever win"...

You sound like the idiots that claimed Dirk could never win a title. My guess is...Luka gets the right team...and he'll win at some point. But, I'd like to at least see a few years in the playoffs before I give an opinion on that.

[DMAVS41]

If Luka played full on, great defense now, I would say Mavs were already a real contender.

As it stands now, Mavs will get bullied against Clippers, Boston, Utah and other physical teams. I just don't see how they win against such a team.

To essentially solely blame Luka for the defensive shortcomings on this team is silly.

Luka could play harder/better defense and this team would still be outside the top 12 or so defensively. As has been explained...this is not a properly constructed roster to contend for a title right now. Hopefully they add some size and defensive prowess on the wing and add another consistent playmaker at guard.

If you are talking right now...this is the kind of roster that could contend;

PatBev/Luka/Covington/Tucker/KP...DFS/Maxi/Curry/Brunson/Powell

[Bronbron23]

If Luka played full on, great defense now, I would say Mavs were already a real contender.

As it stands now, Mavs will get bullied against Clippers, Boston, Utah and other physical teams. I just don't see how they win against such a team.

Yeah. Id add in that if he or kp had a good mid range and post game that woukd help even more. Maybe learn to move and play off ball a bit wouldnt hurt either. I get that luka is ridiculous especially at his age i just dont see him acquiring any of thise skills. Not because he cant but just because he probably dosnt see the need because thats the way the game is going and he sees the kind of success guys like harden and bron have. Only thing wrong with that is that harden dosnt win and luka isnt as good as bron and he'll never be as good as bron. Bron is one of the few players in the history of the game that can get away with playing this way and even he at least played elite defense at the time and has still probably lost chips because of it.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I'm not convinced it's a bad idea for him to be taking those threes even though his current efficiency means it may be holding back their offense. (How scary is it that the best offense in the league has a problem with taking bad shots, and therefore would be better than the best if they got rid of those). Anyway, right now they aren't ready to compete for titles. That means this is prep time for when they are, and if Luka can get better at those shots it will help them be better in the future. Sometimes there is a danger in worrying about current results which may not be ideal. Don't abandon the process if there is a long term plan you're working toward and believe in just because of bumps along the way.

[FKAri]

7.klay isnt just good because of the system hes obviously a great player. That said the rockets would be a terrible fit for him. Anyone who knows ball knows this and knows why. Im not surprised you dont get it.

GS did run a lot of action for Klay and have him move around picks but that doesn't mean he'd be a terrible fit in Houston. He wouldn't be a terrible fit anywhere. Anyone who knows ball knows this.

[Bronbron23]

Yes of course if he pulls a kd move and joins a ridiculously good championship team he would win a chip. If he did that though hed be joining a team that most likely uses alot of on and off ball movement like the warriors do so he still wouldnt be winning with a ball dominant style.

And i didnt say luka shouldn't be the driving force of the team. He should just be the second best scorer. If he was only scoring 2 or 3 points less than kp but getting 8 or 9 more assists hed still be the best player and driving force of the team. One of them is gonna have to develop a mid range and post game if they're gonna be able to contend. I think that kp is better Equipped to do that you think either that luka is a better choice or that a post game and mid range isnt needed. Were gonna have to just agree to disagree on that one. And i never said lukas inefficient in general just that hes inefficient from the 3 point line which is half his offence basically.

As far as the defence is concerned yes it wouod help if he had more defenders to pick up his slack but it could aslo help if he was just an elite defender. You say he cant but i dont know about that. Klay isnt exceptionally athletic or fast but he takes defence as a challenge and is one of the better perimeter defenders in the league. If you look at almost every championship team they were lead by players that compete on that end. Steph and dirk are the only players in the last 30 years to do it and stephs was an asterisk.

As far as harden goes i disagree but i get why u would say that. Alot of experts would to probably so i wont argue that.

As far as adding cov and tuck i still dont think thed be a contender but it would improve their d and tbeyd certainly be better. I still think they'd need either more movement or a post and mid range from one of there stars. If harden had a midrange rockets could of beat warriors in 17. They played very good defence but harden shit the bed in game seven taking and missing to many threes. Think he went 2 for 14 or something.

And i would of never said dirk couldn't win a title. He wasn't a great defender but his team had great movement and dirk had a great midrange. If luka had the same and was in a different system i wouldn't say that about him either.

[Bronbron23]

Yeah obviously. I dont mean it be a terrible fit as in it wouldn't work. Klay would be a good addition and effective in any system. It be great for houston but It wouldn't be a good fit for him personally. Hed become a spot up shooter waiting for harden or wesbrook to drive and dish. He'd have much less success in Houston's system compared to the warriors. The Warriors are one of the best off ball moving teams ever. Hed also hate it there after playing in a beautiful system like golden state. Anyone who knows ball can see this.

[DMAVS41]

Does it really not give you any pause that the player you rail against in Harden and the style you rail against...nearly (and we all know likely would have) beat arguably the best collection of talent relative to competition in league history that also played the style you think is perfect to win with?

The Warriors had better players and played a vastly superior style according to you...and should have lost.

In most of the examples you've given...it was the defense, not the offense...that led to losses.

Do you think just maybe you have an opinion and are just looking at everything through a lens trying to prove that opinion true?

And this doesn't even touch the conversation that players play a certain way because it is optimal for them. Players have different skillsets...that also seems missing from your analysis. Not everyone, even with constant work, could be a great defender or develop a reliable mid-range game. This is obvious, but it seems missing in most of your posts.

Lastly, if you gave this current Mavs team two elite wing defenders that could play with KP at center...ugh...they wouldn't be title favorites because the Lakers/Clippers/Bucks would be better, but they'd be damn good and way better than they currently are.

[DMAVS41]

Harden dosnt win

His career isn't over yet...and he's never had the best team in the league around him.

But, if that is how you want to rate players...

Malone/Stockton/Barkley/Paul/Nash/Elgin...don't win.

Durant and KG didn't win until they got squads way better than any of the teams Harden has ever had.

Where do you rank guys like Malone/Stockton/Barkley?

[Bronbron23]

Does it really not give you any pause that the player you rail against in Harden and the style you rail against...nearly (and we all know likely would have) beat arguably the best collection of talent relative to competition in league history that also played the style you think is perfect to win with?

The Warriors had better players and played a vastly superior style according to you...and should have lost.

In most of the examples you've given...it was the defense, not the offense...that led to losses.

Do you think just maybe you have an opinion and are just looking at everything through a lens trying to prove that opinion true?

And this doesn't even touch the conversation that players play a certain way because it is optimal for them. Players have different skillsets...that also seems missing from your analysis. Not everyone, even with constant work, could be a great defender or develop a reliable mid-range game. This is obvious, but it seems missing in most of your posts.

Lastly, if you gave this current Mavs team two elite wing defenders that could play with KP at center...ugh...they wouldn't be title favorites because the Lakers/Clippers/Bucks would be better, but they'd be damn good and way better than they currently are.

Nah i get that everyone has different skill sets. It just so happens that players with a certain skill set win more than others. Yes other factors are responsible for that also like defence and teammates but you cant ignore the importance of the post and midrange either.

And the warriors would of lost if harden could do something other than jack step back threes. The fact that they should of beat a team that uses better ball movement is irrelevant. None of this is definite. Its all generalities. Sometimes players just hsve off nights or other players play out of their mind and sometimes its just luck. More often than not though on an even playing field teams that have these traits will win.

And its not one way or the other. Iso ball has its place. So do threes. Just mix it up some. Dont be one dimensional and predictable.

[DMAVS41]

Nah i get that everyone has different skill sets. It just so happens that players with a certain skill set win more than others. Yes other factors are responsible for that also like defence and teammates but you cant ignore the importance of the post and midrange either.

And the warriors would of lost if harden could do something other than jack step back threes. The fact that they should of beat a team that uses better ball movement is irrelevant. None of this is definite. Its all generalities. Sometimes players just hsve off nights or other players play out of their mind and sometimes its just luck. More often than not though on an even playing field teams that have these traits will win.

And its not one way or the other. Iso ball has its place. So do threes. Just mix it up some. Dont be one dimensional and predictable.

I'd say the team with arguably the best players of all-time playing your style likely losing to a team with worse players and playing the style you think is far inferior...matters.

Also, teams do mix it up far more than you are realizing then if that is how you feel. Luka plays off ball a lot and KP gets touches in all the zones you reference.

If you feel the way you do in your post...do you build in for the possibility that how Harden plays is actually what is best for him and his team relatively speaking? Meaning...of course he could improve on certain things like all players, but that ultimately this style is what works best for himself and his team.

If you agree about different skillsets...I'd think you'd have to acknowledge, for example...that a guy like Andrew Wiggins...should not be playing your style. In fact, when he did...he had awful results...playing in the mid-range heavily...so I'm assuming then it could be the case that Luka/Harden or whoever forcing a mid-range game might make them worse.

Ultimately though...I just see a lot of talk about offense for players/teams that are elite. The 18 Rockets had the best offense in the league. The current Mavs have the best offense in the league. Like I've said on repeat...defense was a far bigger weakness on those teams...although the 18 Rockets were good on that end. Which kind of goes against your notion that Harden/Luka can't be a part of certain level teams.

To me it is about the players and building the right type of team around certain guys. Some guys have narrow circumstances in which they'd thrive in terms of system. Lebron is a player like that...I don't see how that makes him worse than a more portable player when constructing title winning teams is really hard and the team with best players usually win anyway.

[Celtics 1825]

Mavs currently blowing out the Grizzlies by 30. KP has 26 and 10 in 3 quarters despite Luka playing. He's looking real "shackled" out there isn't he?

[DMAVS41]

Mavs currently blowing out the Grizzlies by 30. KP has 26 and 10 in 3 quarters despite Luka playing. He's looking real "shackled" out there isn't he?


:applause:

Shackled Again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is almost like a guy coming off a serious injury and not playing for nearly 2 years and on a new team...needed some time to get comfortable.

But, tell us more people...tell us about him being a mere onlooker and lacking in development...or how he takes too many 3's...

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

:applause:

Shackled Again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is almost like a guy coming off a serious injury and not playing for nearly 2 years and on a new team...needed some time to get comfortable.

But, tell us more people...tell us about him being a mere onlooker and lacking in development...or how he takes too many 3's...

Explain his splits with VS without Luka then

KP deadass better than Luka LMAO

[DMAVS41]

Explain his splits with VS without Luka then

KP deadass better than Luka LMAO

I love KP...but he started the season really poorly...everyone blamed Luka...and that really wasn't it. You see...when someone gets hurt and doesn't play for nearly 2 years...and then joins a new team...it might take some time to get comfortable both individually and collectively.

As for his splits...I can't believe a player taking on a bigger role and having it impact numbers needs to be explained, but you clowns are laughably dumb on this topic...so I guess it does.

[DMAVS41]

KP deadass better than Luka LMAO

Missed this.

He might be if he plays like he has been lately. His defense might put his value higher than Luka if he could keep this up. Not sure the relevance of this point to this debate though.

Remember, your claim is that Luka's style inhibits the play of KP and his teammates. Tell us more about that...the Mavs must have a shit offense if he's so detrimental to his teammates.

[90sgoat]

Something I've noticed with KP vs Luka.

When only one is on the floor, KP when playing well, widens the point differential and often gets that 10+.

When Luka is on the floor, playing well, the game for some reason seems to stay close.

This is probably because KP plays defense and Luka don't, so KP can add points on both offense and defense and that's how you go on runs. Luka can only create points offensively.

Luka is playing below his usual level at the moment. The stats are not showing it, but the shooting percentages are. He is really bricking it up out there. He also looks slower on drives. Looks fatigued, no lift. Should get some rest is my guess.

[FKAri]

Missed this.

He might be if he plays like he has been lately. His defense might put his value higher than Luka if he could keep this up. Not sure the relevance of this point to this debate though.

Remember, your claim is that Luka's style inhibits the play of KP and his teammates. Tell us more about that...the Mavs must have a shit offense if he's so detrimental to his teammates.

He believes you're a Luka stan and wants to get a rise out of you :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

He believes you're a Luka stan and wants to get a rise out of you :oldlol:

Oh, I see...

I'm probably lower on Luka than most...I'm just not dumb enough to ignore what he's actually doing and producing.

[DMAVS41]

Something I've noticed with KP vs Luka.

When only one is on the floor, KP when playing well, widens the point differential and often gets that 10+.

When Luka is on the floor, playing well, the game for some reason seems to stay close.

This is probably because KP plays defense and Luka don't, so KP can add points on both offense and defense and that's how you go on runs. Luka can only create points offensively.

Luka is playing below his usual level at the moment. The stats are not showing it, but the shooting percentages are. He is really bricking it up out there. He also looks slower on drives. Looks fatigued, no lift. Should get some rest is my guess.

It was never realistic for him to keep up his play that he started the year with.

He's also dealt with some nagging injury issues recently.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Probably because KP is a top 3-5 rim protector in the league and a DPOY candidate when healthy while Luka is a horrible defender and along with Seth the bane of their defense

[DMAVS41]

Probably because KP is a top 3-5 rim protector in the league and a DPOY candidate when healthy while Luka is a horrible defender and along with Seth the bane of their defense

THJ isn't very good either.

But, again, what does that have to do with your take that Luka's style is inhibiting his teammates...specifically KP?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

THJ isn't very good either.

But, again, what does that have to do with your take that Luka's style is inhibiting his teammates...specifically KP?

If this continues for the rest of this month then youll have a point. As is the vast difference in his production/efficiency with Luka VS without is too much to ignore

Also i never said Luka inhibits spot up and 3pt shooting role players

Its players with dimensions to their offense like KP who can put the ball on the floor and get separation with his handle anywhere

[DMAVS41]

If this continues for the rest of this month then youll have a point. As is the vast difference in his production/efficiency with Luka VS without is too much to ignore

Okay, so are you at all factoring in KP coming back from injury, time off, and learning to play in a new system with different players?

Or was it expected that he just come back and look amazing from the jump?

[DMAVS41]

Its players with dimensions to their offense like KP who can put the ball on the floor and get separation with his handle anywhere

Of course he does to some extent...literally any player that isn't an off-ball wizard like Curry or Dirk or Allen...etc.

Most of the best perimeter players of all-time are going to limit guys like that to some level...that is expected. Again, the goal of the team is not to maximize KP's numbers...it is to produce the best offense possible. In order to do that...some players on the team have to sacrifice while not playing the optimal role to produce numbers.

It is about impact...and, like I've said from the jump, if KP can play at certain level of efficiency in certain spots...he'll get more chances. And what do you know...that is exactly what is happening now that he looks far more comfortable out there.