Larry Bird averaged more minutes per game than Michael Jordan

[72-10]

career minutes per game
Bird - 38.4 (13th all-time)
Jordan - 38.3 (15th all-time)

I guess that means Bird played more of the game. All things considered, with the chronic back injuries, Bird was a phenomenal athlete, and his shooting range was better than Michael's.:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Sometimes I debate who was better

Bird was phenomenal.. I have him as #2 all-time

he beat Magic's more talented Lakers as the underdog in 1984, with a real talent disadvantage.. it was a goat-level ring

one sidenote: it's interesting that from 3-point range, bird shot 34.9% on 1.3 attempts in the 80-87' playoffs, compared to Jordan's 35.2% on 2.1 attempts in the 85-93' Playoffs..

['Toine=MVP]

Sometimes I debate who was better

Bird was phenomenal.. I have him as #2 all-time

he beat Magic's more talented Lakers as the underdog in 1984, with a real talent disadvantage.. it was a goat-level ring

one sidenote: it's interesting that from 3-point range, bird shot 34.9% on 1.3 attempts in the 80-87' playoffs, compared to Jordan's 35.2% on 2.1 attempts in the 85-93' Playoffs..

Better? That's kind of a whole other conversation than the normal one we have about legacy/greatness. There isn't really an argument for Bird over MJ, but yes, Bird should be considered the #2 GOAT.

[Da_Realist]

Sometimes I debate who was better

Bird was phenomenal.. I have him as #2 all-time

I agree with this.

[AirBonner]

I have Bird ahead of MJ. He beat the shit out of MJ as if he were his dad

[Uncle Drew]

I have Bird ahead of MJ. He beat the shit out of MJ as if he were his dad
Wrong, if Bird was his father he'd be dead.

[Uncle Drew]

Sometimes I debate who was better

Bird was phenomenal.. I have him as #2 all-time

he beat Magic's more talented Lakers as the underdog in 1984, with a real talent disadvantage.. it was a goat-level ring

one sidenote: it's interesting that from 3-point range, bird shot 34.9% on 1.3 attempts in the 80-87' playoffs, compared to Jordan's 35.2% on 2.1 attempts in the 85-93' Playoffs..
Weird, in this list you have him as #4.

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kobe
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Kareem
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

[AirBonner]

Weird, in this list you have him as #4.

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kobe
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Kareem
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem
It

[FKAri]

Weird, in this list you have him as #4.

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kobe
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Kareem
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem
There's another 3ball list where he has MJ #2 :oldlol:

His list changes everyday. And yet his arguments are ALWAYS the same. He's deranged.

[RRR3]

Sometimes I debate who was better

Bird was phenomenal.. I have him as #2 all-time

he beat Magic's more talented Lakers as the underdog in 1984, with a real talent disadvantage.. it was a goat-level ring

one sidenote: it's interesting that from 3-point range, bird shot 34.9% on 1.3 attempts in the 80-87' playoffs, compared to Jordan's 35.2% on 2.1 attempts in the 85-93' Playoffs..
Stop lying. The second someone started saying Bird is GOAT you

[Darth_Vader]

[QUOTE=RRR3]Stop lying. The second someone started saying Bird is GOAT you

[SpaceJam]

Sometimes I debate who was better

Bird was phenomenal.. I have him as #2 all-time

he beat Magic's more talented Lakers as the underdog in 1984, with a real talent disadvantage.. it was a goat-level ring

one sidenote: it's interesting that from 3-point range, bird shot 34.9% on 1.3 attempts in the 80-87' playoffs, compared to Jordan's 35.2% on 2.1 attempts in the 85-93' Playoffs..


.
top 10 player..... 2nd option > Pippen/Pau


Kareem.... Magic > Pippen/Pau

Lebron..... Wade/AD > Pippen/Pau

Shaq........ Kobe > Pippen/Pau

Magic...... Kareem > Pippen/Pau

Wilt.......... West > Pippen/Pau

Dr J.......... Moses > Pippen/Pau

Duncan.... had a Big 3 (3rd star)

Russell.... had 8 HOF teammates



the only exceptions are Duncan and Russell who had a 3rd HOF teammate (Big 3)

it's amazing that MJ/Kobe won anything at all with their shit help compared to their peers

You don't have Bird listed here :(

[insidehoops]

Wonder how long Bird's career would have been extended with Load Management.

[Phoenix]

Load management wouldn't have unfukked his back considering how he messed it up. His first 9 years he was playing 38-40 mins a night and typically good for 75+ games a season. He was plenty tough and durable right until he paved his driveway.

[ronniec]

Wonder how long Bird's career would have been extended with Load Management.

Bird and load management, should not be put on the same sentence.

Bird would not, MJ would not, I think Magic would not as well...

[FKAri]

Bird and load management, should not be put on the same sentence.

Bird would not, MJ would not, I think Magic would not as well...

If they had known it would prolong their careers, of course they would've. Bird for damn sure would have had he known it might have saved his back. These guys all love the game of basketball and would fight tooth and nail to be able compete at the highest level. As eager kids they might've not done it because they wouldn't think long term but in hindsight as adults they would've sat if they could play longer.

[ronniec]

If they had known it would prolong their careers, of course they would've. Bird for damn sure would have had he known it might have saved his back. These guys all love the game of basketball and would fight tooth and nail to be able compete at the highest level. As eager kids they might've not done it because they wouldn't think long term but in hindsight as adults they would've sat if they could play longer.

I don't think it would be that way.

Bird, played with a bent pinky all his career, never stopped playing and had it fixed first.
He also returned to the game after his cheekbone was broken in 1991.

This kind of character would do load management?

Come on.

[FKAri]

I don't think it would be that way.

Bird, played with a bent pinky all his career, never stopped playing and had it fixed first.
He also returned to the game after his cheekbone was broken in 1991.

This kind of character would do load management?

Come on.

What I'm saying is it has nothing to do with character. It has to do with a long term vs short term outlook.

[SouBeachTalents]

What I'm saying is it has nothing to do with character. It has to do with a long term vs short term outlook.
Bro, there is no reasoning with nostalgic, old timey people like that. They'd just as much argue Lewis & Clark wouldn't take a car if it was available to them

[HoopologyPhD]

Load management in 60's= 1 pack of squares and a fifth after a loss or a large cuban and a quart after victory

[Da_Realist]

I don't think it would be that way.

Bird, played with a bent pinky all his career, never stopped playing and had it fixed first.
He also returned to the game after his cheekbone was broken in 1991.

This kind of character would do load management?

Come on.

Right. And Bulls management had to limit MJ's minutes after recovering from a broken foot because he was chomping at the bit to play on a team that had amassed a losing record that season and looked like they would miss the playoffs. And years later MJ still hadn't forgiven them for limiting his minutes.

And he famously included a "love of the game" clause in his contract so he could play anywhere, anytime he wanted.

There is absolutely a character difference.

[FKAri]

Bro, there is no reasoning with nostalgic, old timey people like that. They'd just as much argue Lewis & Clark wouldn't take a car if it was available to them

It's not nostalgia. It's clinging to the fantasy of the athlete as some kind of soldier. We want these guys to be hard headed, perseverant, animal-like, and bold in the face of insurmountable odds. We don't want an athlete or a soldier who is too self aware. We want them focused on the command at hand and leave the thinking to the higher ups. If you grew up with this fairy tale and were ignorant to the world, you'd buy into this archetype as well. There is too much awareness nowadays for an athlete to think like this. Some fans don't want their bubble bursted.

[90sgoat]

Wonder how long Bird's career would have been extended with Load Management.

Bobby Portis would have beat his ass so bad he went to Europe and became Euroleague MVP.

[ronniec]

It's not nostalgia. It's clinging to the fantasy of the athlete as some kind of soldier. We want these guys to be hard headed, perseverant, animal-like, and bold in the face of insurmountable odds. We don't want an athlete or a soldier who is too self aware. We want them focused on the command at hand and leave the thinking to the higher ups. If you grew up with this fairy tale and were ignorant to the world, you'd buy into this archetype as well. There is too much awareness nowadays for an athlete to think like this. Some fans don't want their bubble bursted.

Wondering if you ever played in any competitive sports.

My first person experience... I was a competitive soccer player for life, till the age of 34. I had this chronic knee problem for a long time but never had enough rest. Finally, I blew up my left knee, partially torn meniscus, completely torn my ACL... had a big surgery and never been the same.
I have never regretted a bit if I should have lost some weight and put less pressure on my knees.. or I should never played that game...

There was another time, I had a sprained ankle and a match is coming up. I put some pain killing herbs on it and wrapped with elastic bandage. Felt like fire burn on the skin but less pain from inside, so I kept on playing.
After the game I unwrapped the bandage, and found out I had a minor skin burn on my ankle, and it was like 20 years ago, the scar is still there today.

If you are really competitive, really love the sports, you will just play it whenever you can. Old school people don't think that much.
To put it this way, some people just live in the present and not so calculated. To reserve your body by load management is not going to guarantee you being safe and healthy for a longer term. Accidents/tragedies may come in anytime. Who knows what will happen tomorrow?

The competitiveness of the professionals/legends is not something that we ordinary people can imagine.

[Hey Yo]

Bird and load management, should not be put on the same sentence.

Bird would not, MJ would not, I think Magic would not as well...
He did for 2 off seasons and almost 2 full seasons when he quit the league the first time.

[Hey Yo]

Wondering if you ever played in any competitive sports.

My first person experience... I was a competitive soccer player for life, till the age of 34. I had this chronic knee problem for a long time but never had enough rest. Finally, I blew up my left knee, partially torn meniscus, completely torn my ACL... had a big surgery and never been the same.
I have never regretted a bit if I should have lost some weight and put less pressure on my knees.. or I should never played that game...

There was another time, I had a sprained ankle and a match is coming up. I put some pain killing herbs on it and wrapped with elastic bandage. Felt like fire burn on the skin but less pain from inside, so I kept on playing.
After the game I unwrapped the bandage, and found out I had a minor skin burn on my ankle, and it was like 20 years ago, the scar is still there today.

If you are really competitive, really love the sports, you will just play it whenever you can. Old school people don't think that much.
To put it this way, some people just live in the present and not so calculated. To reserve your body by load management is not going to guarantee you being safe and healthy for a longer term. Accidents/tragedies may come in anytime. Who knows what will happen tomorrow?

The competitiveness of the professionals/legends is not something that we ordinary people can imagine.
:oldlol::oldlol::oldlol:

[HylianNightmare]

The best SF to play the game

[90sgoat]

It's not nostalgia. It's clinging to the fantasy of the athlete as some kind of soldier. We want these guys to be hard headed, perseverant, animal-like, and bold in the face of insurmountable odds. We don't want an athlete or a soldier who is too self aware. We want them focused on the command at hand and leave the thinking to the higher ups. If you grew up with this fairy tale and were ignorant to the world, you'd buy into this archetype as well. There is too much awareness nowadays for an athlete to think like this. Some fans don't want their bubble bursted.

Modern fans remind me of movie-geeks, who ruin everything by their nonsensical "trivia".

I don't give a shit about this or that plot hole or this or that retarded fan theory of cinema or if this is canonincal or not.

It's the same with sports, geeks have taken over sports, with their fanboy obsession over minutia, stats and unironic worship of "the game".

The healthy, normal way to relate to sports is through the mythology. No one normal cares as much about "the game" and stats like the modern lardass geek in front of the telly. It doesn't matter. I don't care AT ALL about Luka Doncic stats or KP stats, I care about the overaching mythos, the two Europeans battling it out in a hostile world.

It should be said that soccer fans are far worse in this regard as they look on a team of 11 foreigners and no culture what so ever and then pretend that Chelsea is different than Manchester United. At least basketball fans have the myth of the individual here, but when players don't want to be heros, but instead come off as the pampered prince of the fairy tales, then who cares.

TL/DR: Modern sports has been taken over by geek-culture and suffers as a result, because player mythos are no longer relateable.

[Lebron23]

Bird was also 3-0 against Jordan in a playoffs series.

[AirBonner]

Bird was also 3-0 against Jordan in a playoffs series.

Thoughts 3ball?

[FKAri]

Wondering if you ever played in any competitive sports.

My first person experience... I was a competitive soccer player for life, till the age of 34. I had this chronic knee problem for a long time but never had enough rest. Finally, I blew up my left knee, partially torn meniscus, completely torn my ACL... had a big surgery and never been the same.
I have never regretted a bit if I should have lost some weight and put less pressure on my knees.. or I should never played that game...

There was another time, I had a sprained ankle and a match is coming up. I put some pain killing herbs on it and wrapped with elastic bandage. Felt like fire burn on the skin but less pain from inside, so I kept on playing.
After the game I unwrapped the bandage, and found out I had a minor skin burn on my ankle, and it was like 20 years ago, the scar is still there today.

If you are really competitive, really love the sports, you will just play it whenever you can. Old school people don't think that much.
To put it this way, some people just live in the present and not so calculated. To reserve your body by load management is not going to guarantee you being safe and healthy for a longer term. Accidents/tragedies may come in anytime. Who knows what will happen tomorrow?

The competitiveness of the professionals/legends is not something that we ordinary people can imagine.
1:
Why did Bird and MJ allow themselves to sit on the bench to "catch a breather"? They were superstars so obviously the coach isn't subbing them for tactical reasons. Why did they allow it? Because they wanted to be ready for when it counts. What gave them the idea? It was a norm in the game so they didn't think twice about it(people tend to just do what everyone else is doing). There was a time when that was NOT normal. But it was successful and thus teams adapted. Today, well rested teams have proven to be successful in the playoffs. Last year we saw an extreme example and so...teams are adapting. Teams and players want to win the big prize. The only prize. They will sacrifice everything to get it even if it means love of the game. They're not out here to have fun. They're trying to win.

2: Load management may be an extreme example but protecting your body from injury in general is something you and I cannot related to. We are not in a position to have millions of dollars on the line and the ability to ensure our grandkids have a good living.

I actually did play competitive basketball up to the college level (think homeless man's Jason Richardson except I was also known for my defense).


Old school people don't think that much.
bruh

[Bawkish]

Load management?

go play another sport like chess or checkers instead of playing basketball

it's like im in the middle of battlefield where i chose to stop firing my gun so that i could conserve my bullets for use later

[GimmeThat]

well, there are two types of job offers when graduating from university

one is where you are required to meet and maintain certain requirements beyond simply getting your degree after your internship is over in order to keep the offer.

one is as long as you graduate, the offer stands.

[Phoenix]

well, there are two types of job offers when graduating from university

one is where you are required to meet and maintain certain requirements beyond simply getting your degree after your internship is over in order to keep the offer.

one is as long as you graduate, the offer stands.

I'm gonna assume there's some analogy in here relevant to the topic and it's just flying over my head.

[Da_Realist]

Some guys love the competition, the fight and the challenge of playing basketball at the highest level against the world's greatest players. That is their reward. No point in being a professional and not play all out every minute possible...even through some injuries. These guys get upset even thinking about sitting down and watching from the sidelines.

Other guys are more concerned with legacy, longevity, stats and career achievements so they play it safe, pick and choose their spots to rest to maximize their ability to play more seasons and rack up untouchable career numbers. Those guys aren't so upset to sit it out 15 games a year.

Then there are some that are legitimately hurt and need time off. These can fit in either of the above scenarios.

[FKAri]

well, there are two types of job offers when graduating from university

one is where you are required to meet and maintain certain requirements beyond simply getting your degree after your internship is over in order to keep the offer.

one is as long as you graduate, the offer stands.
There's a third category which is that you are such a touted candidate, you are able to choose between multiple offers and top firms want to what they can to accommodate you. You should know your worth. And guys like Kawhi and Lebron certainly do and their employers are happy to accommodate them.


Some guys love the competition, the fight and the challenge of playing basketball at the highest level against the world's greatest players. That is their reward. No point in being a professional and not play all out every minute possible...even through some injuries. These guys get upset even thinking about sitting down and watching from the sidelines.

Other guys are more concerned with legacy, longevity, stats and career achievements so they play it safe, pick and choose their spots to rest to maximize their ability to play more seasons and rack up untouchable career numbers. Those guys aren't so upset to sit it out 15 games a year.

Then there are some that are legitimately hurt and need time off. These can fit in either of the above scenarios.

I just showed in my last post that MJ and Bird didn't go 100% and that it's not a knock on their character.

[ronniec]

He did for 2 off seasons and almost 2 full seasons when he quit the league the first time.

You called that load management?

[ronniec]

Some guys love the competition, the fight and the challenge of playing basketball at the highest level against the world's greatest players. That is their reward. No point in being a professional and not play all out every minute possible...even through some injuries. These guys get upset even thinking about sitting down and watching from the sidelines.

Other guys are more concerned with legacy, longevity, stats and career achievements so they play it safe, pick and choose their spots to rest to maximize their ability to play more seasons and rack up untouchable career numbers. Those guys aren't so upset to sit it out 15 games a year.

Then there are some that are legitimately hurt and need time off. These can fit in either of the above scenarios.

Well said

[ronniec]

1:
Why did Bird and MJ allow themselves to sit on the bench to "catch a breather"? They were superstars so obviously the coach isn't subbing them for tactical reasons. Why did they allow it? Because they wanted to be ready for when it counts. What gave them the idea? It was a norm in the game so they didn't think twice about it(people tend to just do what everyone else is doing). There was a time when that was NOT normal. But it was successful and thus teams adapted. Today, well rested teams have proven to be successful in the playoffs. Last year we saw an extreme example and so...teams are adapting. Teams and players want to win the big prize. The only prize. They will sacrifice everything to get it even if it means love of the game. They're not out here to have fun. They're trying to win.

2: Load management may be an extreme example but protecting your body from injury in general is something you and I cannot related to. We are not in a position to have millions of dollars on the line and the ability to ensure our grandkids have a good living.

I actually did play competitive basketball up to the college level (think homeless man's Jason Richardson except I was also known for my defense).


bruh

How did you use "catching a breath" as an example of load management???

[SouBeachTalents]

Some guys love the competition, the fight and the challenge of playing basketball at the highest level against the world's greatest players. That is their reward. No point in being a professional and not play all out every minute possible...even through some injuries. These guys get upset even thinking about sitting down and watching from the sidelines.

Other guys are more concerned with legacy, longevity, stats and career achievements so they play it safe, pick and choose their spots to rest to maximize their ability to play more seasons and rack up untouchable career numbers. Those guys aren't so upset to sit it out 15 games a year.

Then there are some that are legitimately hurt and need time off. These can fit in either of the above scenarios.
You say that like Jordan didn't leave the league for TWO years in his prime, playing minor league baseball and making a Looney Tunes movie :lol

[Phoenix]

You called that load management?

If you look at Hey Yo's posting history, I believe he's contractually obligated to reference MJ 'quitting' every other post.

[superduper]

Bird and load management, should not be put on the same sentence.

Bird would not, MJ would not, I think Magic would not as well...

In this era they absolutely would to adapt to the other top stars that benefit from load management because of how fresh it leaves you for the playoffs. Nobody is playing 40 minutes a game any more and it is mainly to do with the meta of the current era and the fact that we as humans are starting to value health and longevity, which was literally never considered before.

[Da_Realist]

You say that like Jordan didn't leave the league for TWO years in his prime, playing minor league baseball and making a Looney Tunes movie :lol

As if playing half-assed throughout the season and cheating the paying public and broadcasters out of games they expect you to play in is the same as retiring.

[FKAri]

As if playing half-assed throughout the season and cheating the paying public and broadcasters out of games they expect you to play in is the same as retiring.

Love of the game vs wanting to win. Pick one to prioritize. The only out (as in MJ's case) is to not be pushed hard enough to have to make that distinction

[Pushxx]

Bird is #2 on my GOAT list behind MJ

[FKAri]

Bird is #2 on my GOAT list behind MJ

It's annoying how much his legacy has faded post career in comparison to a guy like Magic who has probably seen a boost, if anything.

[Phoenix]

It's annoying how much his legacy has faded post career in comparison to a guy like Magic who has probably seen a boost, if anything.

I'm not so sure. It seems like alot of people are coming around to the idea that Bird was the better player peak for peak. It seemed previously that people looked at their championship count, but more specifically their finals head to head, and concluded that Magic was better. It took Bird being injured for Magic to overtake him on the court.