3Ball, how should Luka work with Porzingis? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ball

12-28-2019, 06:06 PM

I know you agree with me on this bro.

Luka is playing a ball dominant, streetball type of suboptimal basketball, while diminishing the skill of Porzingus, who made the most FGM from the Elbow in his last Knicks season.

Wouldn't it seem obvious that Zingis should have the ball at the high post and Luka should move off ball and cut?

Of course.. here's some examples of how Luka should be playing (off-ball) and getting ASSISTED by the big man:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-28-2015/ew2ZUl.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-11-2015/ggHeur.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/zC5nUD.gif

And he needs to learn how to score off the big man just in general

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/YBNGmA.gif

And it's a 2-man game - the big man can feed Luka on the post too:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-11-2015/454Vvd.gif

There's countless examples of how Luka should be playing off Porzingas - here's MJ getting a pass from the big, and then quickly returning the favor for the hockey-assist - count how many dribbles MJ takes...

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-21-2015/BoJwNo.gif

Ghost1

12-28-2019, 06:10 PM

im the second poster itt

3ball

12-28-2019, 06:17 PM

DMAVS41

12-28-2019, 07:32 PM

Of course, there's countless straight catch-and-shoots where Jordan/Luka would be coming off a bunch of screens reggie miller style.. luka should be an assassin in this way, basically shocking the defense by switching from ball-dominator to off-ball assassin

He actually does switch it up.

Rick takes him off ball during certain stretches in most games.

And, you know, best offense in the league...historically good with Luka on the floor. That is what matters for this team right now...not what KP's meaningless stats are with him bricking mid-range 2's that he's never been good enough to warrant taking a lot of.

Harsh truth for KP, and I guess his delusional fans at this point, is that he's never been an efficient player. On a good team where you aren't the best player...you have to earn shots/touches...and he just hasn't been good enough to warrant taking the ball out of the hands of Luka and the rest of the team for his offense.

Hopefully he improves, but until then...just like Rick said after the game...he's a great floor spacer.

3ball

12-28-2019, 07:43 PM

He actually does switch it up.

Rick takes him off ball during certain stretches in most games.

And, you know, best offense in the league...historically good with Luka on the floor. That is what matters for this team right now...not what KP's meaningless stats are with him bricking mid-range 2's that he's never been good enough to warrant taking a lot of.

Harsh truth for KP, and I guess his delusional fans at this point, is that he's never been an efficient player. On a good team where you aren't the best player...you have to earn shots/touches...and he just hasn't been good enough to warrant taking the ball out of the hands of Luka and the rest of the team for his offense.

Hopefully he improves, but until then...just like Rick said after the game...he's a great floor spacer.

Catch-and-Shoot stats from NBA.COM (https://stats.nba.com/players/catch-shoot/?sort=CATCH_SHOOT_PTS&dir=1)

1) Davis Bertans… 9.8 ppg

3) Karl Anthony Towns.. 8.2 ppg

7) Kristaps Porzingis… 7.0 ppg

275) Doncic… 1.5 ppg

So I don't think Doncic switches between ball-dominator and catch-and-shoot...

He clearly isn't a catch-and-shoot threat, and he ranks 3rd in time of possession (ball-domination) - so he's near-last in catch-and-shoot, and near-first in ball-domination.. :confusedshrug:

He needs to work on his game, or he'll end up a white Lebron that constantly needs "moar help" because he can't elevate teammates or teams (can't develop a team because he turns them into spot-up shooters, thus needing ready-made stars/extra talent to win)... Yikes.

DMAVS41

12-28-2019, 07:46 PM

[QUOTE=3ball]Catch-and-Shoot stats from NBA.COM (https://stats.nba.com/players/catch-shoot/?sort=CATCH_SHOOT_PTS&dir=1)

1) Davis Bertans

3ball

12-28-2019, 07:54 PM

Making Luka a "catch and shoot" player would be one of the dumbest things ever.

Playing off-ball is not the same thing as being a catch and shoot player.

You should watch some Mavericks games to understand the team and Luka.

Again, best offense in the league...historically good...
of course there's more to off-ball than just catch-and-shoot - did you see the GIF's I posted?... none of them were catch and shoot..

but regardless, the reality is that Doncic is an extremely low-assisted player (21.1%), so he's among the least effective off-ball players in the league.. and he takes 0.6 (https://stats.nba.com/players/playtype-post-up/?sort=FGA&dir=1) post shots attempts per game - so he doesn't post

And btw, he has better-ranked offenses than Lebron ever had because HE PERSONALLY can shoot

that makes all the difference - see Nash, who also had #1 offenses.

But it means nothing.. In the playoffs, defenses get pretty good at guarding the "floor general" style that uses a primary ball-dominator..

Ultimately, it's easier for the opponent to defend the ball-dominator approach than for Doncic's team to guard ball movement - so the opponent is less worn down and has more in the tank to go off offensively than Doncic's team, who is scrambling to defend the ball movement

So i'll be waiting for you to say "well, the opponent just got hot... nothing the Mavs could've done...".... lol, sound familiar?... but the reality is that Doncic/Lebron-ball doesn't win the attrition battle against good teams in the playoffs.

DMAVS41

12-28-2019, 07:59 PM

of course there's more to off-ball than just catch-and-shoot - did you see the GIF's I posted?... none of them were catch and shoot..

but regardless, the reality is that Doncic is an extremely low-assisted player (21.1%), so he's among the least effective off-ball players in the league.

And he has better-ranked offenses than Lebron ever had because HE PERSONALLY can shoot

that makes all the difference - see Nash, who also had #1 offenses.

But it means nothing.. In the playoffs, defenses get pretty good at guarding the "floor general" style that uses a primary ball-dominator..

Ultimately, it's easier for the opponent to defend the ball-dominator approach than for Doncic's team to guard ball movement - so the opponent is less worn down and has more in the tank to go off offensively than Doncic's team, who is scrambling to defend the ball movement

So i'll be waiting for you to say "well, the opponent just got hot... nothing the Mavs could've done...".... lol, sound familiar?... but the reality is that Doncic/Lebron-ball doesn't win the attrition battle against good teams in the playoffs.

What matters most is having the best players.

And this team isn't close to having the best players.

At some point you'll have to come to terms with reality...Lebron-ball has won...in fact, it has won a ton. It has won 3 titles and made 8 finals in the last decade.

In addition, almost always...when Lebron has lost...it was because of defense...not offense...and, in 2011 when he definitely didn't play Lebron ball.

If you are going to be on here this much...you should at least care about reality.

This Mavs team, for example, isn't going to fail to win a title this year because of style. It will lose because other teams have better players and the defense isn't there.

If you are going to criticize Luka...it shouldn't be for leading a historically good offense...it should be for his defense. That is the fair comparison to Nash...although Luka will be way better on defense than Nash...that was Nash's weakness....it wasn't his offense...it was his historically bad defense.

Again, a person posting this much on a forum should know basic things like this.

tpols

12-28-2019, 08:11 PM

DMAVS41

12-28-2019, 08:15 PM

if you really break down the stats, dmavs is right...

mavs have, somehow the #1 offense, but only middle rank assists. (indicating they dont swing)

Furthermore, outside luka and zing, EVERYBODY on dallas is in the negative defensively.

Which is counter intuitive... everybody thought their defense sucked because two white boys featured it, yet they are statistically the best defenders on the team.

:oldlol:

aint life a bitch.

Luka is not a good defender yet.

KP has been really good on defense though.

Regardless, the point is that offense is not the problem for this team right now...and to pretend like it is...is ignorant.

3ball

12-28-2019, 08:27 PM

What matters most is having the best players.

Nonsense.

If Doncic is an all-world player, then he will personally make up for talent deficits and elevate his team's brand of ball

Did Utah need the best players when they swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and Duncan/Robinson in 1998?

in 1993, Isiah Thomas said that the Pistons had a way better cast, but MJ was the difference (see video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=01m12s)).. The Pistons had more good players, but MJ overcame them... he did the same against the 89' Cavs and their "Big 4"... And most of his Finals opponents had more good players top to bottom.

Lebron-ball has won...in fact, it has won a ton. It has won 3 titles and made 8 finals in the last decade.

You're the one that needs reality.

How many Finals and titles before team-hopping for ready-made stars and instant favorite status?..

I'll answer for you - the same amount as Dwight, AI or Kidd... actually, one less than Kidd

And how many losses for every win?... LOL .... So you're completely delusional

lebron-ball LOSES twice for each time it wins.. and it can't win at all without team-hopping for instant favorite status/ready-made stars because it can't develop teammates/teams (turns them into spot-up shooters).

If Lebron-ball was good, why were his super-teams either losers or underdogs for 6 of 7 years from 2011-2017 Finals?...So that's a LOSING RECORD for Lebron-ball, even with great teams and talented casts.

You need to come to reality - Lebron-ball is a perennial loser/underdog brand, even with super-teams

In addition, almost always...when Lebron has lost...it was because of defense...not offense...and, in 2011 when he definitely didn't play Lebron ball.

More bullshit - he lost each time because he yielded weaker teams than other guys would've had in his spot

there's no excuse for losing in 2014 - teams don't get "randomly hot" for multiple games in a row... maybe one game.. but it's statistically impossible and doesn't even make sense to get "randomly hot" multiple games in a row, or for a whole series

Again, Lebron's long-dribble style doesn't wear teams down like the ball-movement they face, so his team is always more worn down than the opponent.. his opponent always has more gas in the tank to go off than Lebron's teams.

If you are going to be on here this much...you should at least care about reality.

No, you're the one ignoring reality by saying Lebron-ball is a winner

even though it didn't win shit before team-hopping and even then was a perennial underdog/loser

:rolleyes:

This Mavs team, for example, isn't going to fail to win a title this year because of style. It will lose because other teams have better players and the defense isn't there.

No, they'll lose because Doncic is inexperienced and won't do a plethora of things that would allow victory - these are things that he will do later in his career to win, possibly with lesser casts.

it was his historically bad defense.

MJ won with worse-ranked defenses than his Finals opponent in 1991 and 1992, and also the 1993/1997/1998 ECF

So MJ won with less defensive help all the time... you're just making excuses (really bad ones)
.

DMAVS41

12-28-2019, 08:45 PM

If you are going to argue that the Mavs should be winning the title this year...I legit just give up. They were +10500 to win it all to start the year. You are a ****ing idiot if you believe what you write.

No, the Heat lost in 2014 far more because of defense, not offense. But because you can't handle it...you go on and on about something that didn't even exist like a lunatic.

Yes, teams with the best players usually win. You seem to not ever acknowledge that defense is part of the game. Sometimes a team can have loads of offensive talent and be really good...but not as good as a team with a little bit worse offense and a better defense.

I know this is crazy to someone like you, but it is how reality works. I suggest you join in at some point.

What the **** does Jordan have to do with anything? My god man...seek help.

3ball

12-28-2019, 09:05 PM

If you are going to argue that the Mavs should be winning the title this year...

It takes experience to overcome a talent deficit, so I wouldn't expect a 20-year to win without a talent advantage.. he would lose even if the talent was even - just too inexperienced, which isn't a knock at 20 years old

but yes - other teams have won with less talent and facing greater talent deficits than the Mavs would face this year.... but not with a 20-year old at the reigns (magic had a talent advantage when he won in 80'... and dirk was super-experienced when he overcame a massive talent deficit in 2011)

No, the Heat lost in 2014 far more because of defense, not offense. But because you can't handle it...you go on and on about something that didn't even exist like a lunatic.

The Heat had the worst defense of all time? Is that why the Spurs went off at a record clip?

Nonsense.

The Heat scored 7 points per 100 possessions less than their regular season (104 vs 111).. so their weak offense was a real thing

an extra 7 points would've made the Spurs work harder and put them on their heels defensively, so they wouldn't have the capacity to go off offensively.. it's called basketball.. when one team is applying more pressure than the other team, they're winning the attrition battle.. Lebron-ball and it's long dribbling simply doesn't win the attrition battle against championship-level comp...

Yes, teams with the best players usually win. You seem to not ever acknowledge that defense is part of the game. Sometimes a team can have loads of offensive talent and be really good...but not as good as a team with a little bit worse offense and a better defense.

It's Doncic's own fault that he sucks at defense... Bird was a great defender at his peak - all-defense numerous years.. and his intensity rubbed off on the team

But Doncic isn't putting forth the effort and dedication, or learning the know-how on that end... So his team is suffering - that's his fault for not being a defensive leader that rubs off on the team.. that's on him.
.

DMAVS41

12-28-2019, 09:22 PM

1. Right, he's 20 years old and doesn't have a championship caliber team around him...so why on earth are you talking about him or this team like they could win if they played a different style? Again, best offense in the league.

2. The Spurs had an offensive rating of 121 in that series...over 10 points higher than their regular season average. The Heat could have scored at better than their normal rate and still would have lost...again, the defense was the bigger problem....based on your own criteria.

3. Yes, if you are going to criticize Nash or Luka...do it for their defense...don't pretend like the offense is the problem...

You literally contradict yourself every other post.

90sgoat

12-28-2019, 10:06 PM

Thanks 3Ball.

Those gifs are very accurate and show exactly how KP could operate from the high post, where he shoots 52% from and where he is very effective from the tripple threat position.

Luka, unlike Lebron, is actually a capable to good off ball and post player, he just doesn't want to, cause he wants all the glory of dribbling.

He will have to get rid of that ego to reach his full potential. Will he do it in time for Porzingues to still be there? I don't know.

DMAVS41

12-28-2019, 10:49 PM

3ball

12-29-2019, 01:56 PM

1. Right, he's 20 years old and doesn't have a championship caliber team around him...so why on earth are you talking about him or this team like they could win if they played a different style? Again, best offense in the league.

indeed it's unreasonable to expect a 20-year old to overcome supporting talent deficits and win a ring like veteran Dirk did in 2011... and he doesn't have a talent advantage like 20-yr Magic in 1980.

I conceded that much.. he shouldn't be expected to win this year

2. The Spurs had an offensive rating of 121 in that series...over 10 points higher than their regular season average. The Heat could have scored at better than their normal rate and still would have lost...again, the defense was the bigger problem....based on your own criteria.

Dallas took the Spurs 7 games with a far worse defense

it's simply a reality of basketball that the Spurs wouldn't score as much if they had to work harder defensively - i.e. if the Heat were moving the ball and putting the same pressure on the Spurs that they were facing, it would've been a close, nip and tuck series

but instead, the Spurs had figured out Bron-ball and were super-comfortable defensively, allowing them to go off offensively - that's why Lebron gets blown away for the last 3 games in each of his 6 Finals losses - teams figure out his simple style and start winning the attrition war going away.. Bron-ball's long dribbling simply doesn't win the attrition war vs ball movement at the championship level - it's that simple

3. Yes, if you are going to criticize Nash or Luka...do it for their defense...don't pretend like the offense is the problem...

You literally contradict yourself every other post.

their defense sucks, but their offensive style has literally never won a championship... except when lebron started team-hopping for the extra talent the style needs to win - and yet he still mostly lost..

so lebron has proven that the style is a perennial underdog/losing style even with superteams (he was underdog or loser for 6 of 7 years from 2011-2017)

btw, lebron was a great defender back in 2014, or he was supposed to be... so he doesn't have the "I'm just a bad defender" excuse like Luka does

Again, best offense in the league.

having the best offense in the league means nothing because the style can't win rings.. period.. so who cares if it's crushing the regular season like Nash did.. it only won via team-hopping for extra talent, and yet it was still a perennial loser/underdog

DMAVS41

12-29-2019, 03:38 PM

1. The "took them to 7" is irrelevant...as has been explained to you before. You aren't consistent. The Celtics got taken to 7 by a much worse team in the Hawks than the Mavs in 08...yet you don't apply the same logic. In addition, Lebron took them to 7...while Kobe didn't with a better cast. Again, you aren't consistent.

Regardless, the defense was the problem...by your own definition you used.

Stop lying...confront reality for what it is.

2. Lebron has won playing that style. He's won 3 times...he's one of the most winning players in NBA history. Sorry, again...I know you don't like it, but it is the truth.

3. Having the best offense in the league is better than not having it. Just like winning more games than expected is better than not winning.

4. The teams with the best players usually win. Style on offense is pointless to argue about in these cases when it is the team defense that is a real problem. Until you open your eyes and understand that a team with the 29th ranked defense, like the 18 Cavs, lost mostly because of defense and not style...you shouldn't be taken seriously.

3ball

12-29-2019, 04:57 PM

2. Lebron has won playing that style. He's won 3 times... He's one of the most winning players in NBA history.

How many rings before teaming up? How many before "the decision"?

Yet he was still a perennial loser/underdog every year - he's literally one of the most losing and perennial underdogs of all time..

Ultimately, 3 rings in 17 years is complete garbage compared to other greats, even without considering how many times he teamed up with the best young studs in the league..

Accept reality - his entire resume is manufactured - who can't go 3/9 by teaming up with the best talent 3 different times?... This makes him the weakest superstar ever (losing record despite teaming up with multiple super-teams - pathetic)

1. The "took them to 7" is irrelevant...as has been explained to you before. You aren't consistent. The Celtics got taken to 7 by a much worse team in the Hawks than the Mavs in 08...yet you don't apply the same logic. In addition, Lebron took them to 7...while Kobe didn't with a better cast. Again, you aren't consistent.

Dallas had a far worse defense than the Heat, yet they held the Spurs down, while the Heat's better defense couldn't - you can't explain that...

The Spurs infact only went off on the Heat, who not coincidentally, scored less vs the Spurs than any of the Spurs' other opponents..

Bron-ball simply applied the least pressure, so the Spurs were the freshest and most confident against them (aka they had the most capacity to go off vs the Heat than any other team)

Regardless, the defense was the problem...by your own definition you used.

The problem is that Lebron fielded a much weaker team than the Spurs despite having equivalent supporting talent..

the spurs got to relax on defense vs bron-ball... :oldlol: … then they go off on offense fresh as a daisy... :oldlol:

Otoh, weaker defenses held the Spurs down because they were applying more effective offensive pressure/wearing down pressure, while Lebron-ball was figured out and blown out of the gym for the last 3 games (standard in all 6 of his Finals losses)

3. Having the best offense in the league is better than not having it. Just like winning more games than expected is better than not winning.

Sure, but it can't win in the playoffs, so who cares - Doncic will have to change his style or acquire super-teams to win, just like Lebron

4. The teams with the best players usually win. Style on offense is pointless to argue about in these cases when it is the team defense that is a real problem. Until you open your eyes and understand that a team with the 29th ranked defense, like the 18 Cavs, lost mostly because of defense and not style...you shouldn't be taken seriously.

it's simply a reality of basketball that the Spurs wouldn't score as much if they had to work harder defensively - i.e. if the Heat were moving the ball and applying the same pressure that they were facing, it would've been a close, nip and tuck series

but instead, the Spurs had figured out Bron-ball and were super-comfortable defensively, allowing them to go off offensively - that's why Lebron gets blown away for the last 3 games in each of his 6 Finals losses - teams figure out his simple style and start winning the attrition war going away.. Bron-ball's long dribbling simply doesn't win the attrition war vs ball movement at the championship level - it's that simple
.

DMAVS41

12-29-2019, 05:59 PM

1. Almost everybody in history "teamed up" in some fashion or another. Jordan couldn't win until he got an all-time great and a team that was capable of winning 50 without him...and he's the GOAT imo...it takes a team...often a loaded one...to win.

Titles have been won by absurdly stacked teams throughout NBA history. Denying this is stupid....again, you can't handle reality.

2. Again, you won't be consistent here....and are now shifting the argument.

Defense was the problem for the Heat in 14, not Lebron ball. Blame it all on Lebron...I don't care. Just don't tell me the offensive style was the problem on a team that got tuned up for a 121 ortg by the Spurs.

Again, though...you can't be consistent. The Hawks forced a game 7 with the Celtics. Why aren't you destroying Kobe for not being able to duplicate what Joe Johnson could?

Until you do, you can't be taken seriously as you don't let reality dictate your opinions.

3. Blame Lebron for it all...just don't tell me it was the offense that was the problem in that series.

4. Lets not put limits on a 20 year old leading a historically good offense without championship level help. Again, educate yourself on the kind of loaded teams that have won in NBA history. Everyone always needed "more help"...including Jordan.

Also, setting the standard as "best player ever" is absurdly dumb. Luka could be 50% as good as Jordan and win multiple titles and be a first ballot hall of famer. You realize that you don't have to grade everyone against the best ever...right?

5. Best players/teams usually win. Bosh/Wade weren't what you want to pretend they were...and the defense was the problem.

Again, "Lebron ball" has won a ton. He's going to go down as one of the most winning players in NBA history. And crying about "help"...well, you'll have to do the same for Shaq/Kobe/Bird/Kareem/Magic/Russell/Durant/Curry/Duncan...etc....etc...

Just makes no sense. You think Magic is winning 5 titles if Kareem played on another team?

This is what people like you can't ever get...winning takes a team...it isn't one player...and so much of what kind of players a franchise gets is out of the control of said player.

Go tell KG he should have been winning titles in Minnesota if only he played a different style. He'd bitchslap you so fast...and rightfully so.

NBASTATMAN

12-29-2019, 10:27 PM

3ball going to hate on LUKA cuz he plays like Bron.. No matter what this LUKA is going to be one of the GOATS..

I have 4 bball jerseys ..

MJ
DRAZEN
LEBRON
LUKA

:bowdown: TO THE GOATS OF BBALL

egokiller

12-29-2019, 10:45 PM

3ball going to hate on LUKA cuz he plays like Bron.. No matter what this LUKA is going to be one of the GOATS..

I have 4 bball jerseys ..

MJ
DRAZEN
LEBRON
LUKA

:bowdown: TO THE GOATS OF BBALL

One of those jerseys doesn't belong. :oldlol:

http://media.masslive.com/parquetpride/photo/cavaliers-fans-burn-lebron-james-jersey-d2938d31f250f9b5_large.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/06/03/f1/0603f1ca9f564fafee426c3064ae4b1e--nba-memes-sports-memes.jpg

3ball

12-30-2019, 01:31 PM

Lebron is one of the biggest winners in history

3 rings in 17 years is infact the worst winning frequency of any top 10 candidate

this fact is made worse by lebron having 0 rings before team-hopping, and still being a perennial loser/underdog after team-hopping - he lost or was underdog for 6 of 7 years from 11-17' with super-teams...

so he's winless pre-decision, and a perennial loser post-decision... overall, he's the biggest loser of any top 10 candidate, and therefore doesn't belong in top 10

and let's face it - he has countless screwups with the game on the line .. and his fear in the clutch rubs off on teammates, who have bricked when he passes to them for the last shot.. otoh, mj's fearlessness was contagious, and teammates never missed in the playoffs when mj passed on the last possession. it's very telling

DMAVS41

12-30-2019, 01:37 PM

3 rings in 17 years is infact the worst winning frequency of any top 10 candidate

this fact is made worse by lebron having 0 rings before team-hopping, and still being a perennial loser/underdog after team-hopping - he lost or was underdog for 6 of 7 years from 11-17' with super-teams...

so he's winless pre-decision, and a perennial loser post-decision... overall, he's the biggest loser of any top 10 candidate, and therefore doesn't belong in top 10

and let's face it - he has countless screwups with the game on the line .. and his fear in the clutch rubs off on teammates, who have bricked when he passes to them for the last shot.. otoh, mj's fearlessness was contagious, and teammates never missed in the playoffs when mj passed on the last possession. it's very telling

You earlier claimed that what matters most in GOAT conversations...or what matters a ton...is titles as the best player.

Lebron has won 3 titles as the best player on his team.

You rank Kobe higher than Lebron...how many titles does Kobe have as the best player?

Again, go evaluate what kind of teams won titles in NBA history. Do Magic's rings count? Do Bird's? Do Shaq's?

How many players in NBA history have more rings than Lebron as the best player of a team? How many players have made the finals more than him? How many players have a higher overall win percentage?

Please educate yourself...he's one of the most winning players in NBA history based on any reasonable standard.

3ball

12-30-2019, 05:39 PM

How many players in NBA history have more rings than Lebron as the best player of a team? How many players have made the finals more than him? How many players have a higher overall win percentage?

How was Lebron in all these categories before team-hopping?

anyone can take super-teams to a bunch of Finals in a conference where Dwight, Lebron, AI and Kidd were dragging sub-par casts to the Finals.. :confusedshrug:

If a strong cast wasn't needed to make the Finals, then why give Lebron props for stacking the deck with a super-team?

You earlier claimed that what matters most in GOAT conversations...or what matters a ton...is titles as the best player.

Lebron has won 3 titles as the best player on his team.

You rank Kobe higher than Lebron...how many titles does Kobe have as the best player?

Lebron ruined the comparison by team-hopping to play with 2 stars for all his rings.. So he ruined the ability to effectively compare.

For example...……

what would Lebron have done in Kobe's shoes after Shaq left in 2004 and the Lakers had nothing?... He would've team-hopped, per his standard.. So if Kobe had done that, how many more rings as the man?.. Several more undoubtedly - and it's not like he needed a super-team like Lebron - just Pau will do, so his team-hopping options would've been wide open

You earlier claimed that what matters most in GOAT conversations

when comparing the top players of all time, the biggest argument for Kobe over Lebron is that his entire style of play was superior - he didn't turn teammates into spot-up shooters, so his teammates played better and his teams were much better despite less talent.. and by having a style that could develop teammates/teams, he didn't need to team-hop for ready-made stars/teams and favorite status like Lebron did.

ultimately, the only categories that Lebron has on Kobe is stats and rings as the man, which are tainted by collusion

otoh, kobe has:. rings as the man without team-hopping, total rings, style of play and eye test, shooting ability, clutch, less help needed, better teammate maximization, and more

Again, go evaluate what kind of teams won titles in NBA history. Do Magic's rings count? Do Bird's? Do Shaq's?

Kobe won with just Pau

that's the point - Lebron couldn't win with weaker casts like Kobe's - he needed a Pau-level player at 3rd option to win.. Why ignore these obvious facts?

And Bird beat a favored and more talented Laker team in 1984

Dirk's ring was bomb too.. Chauncey's was bomb.. Duncan't 03' ring was the shit.

I agree that Magic's rings are overrated, although not as much as the team-hopping Lebron.

Please educate yourself...he's one of the most winning players in NBA history based on any reasonable standard.

educate yourself..

3 rings in 17 years is the worst winning frequency of any top 10 candidate

this fact is made worse by lebron having 0 rings before team-hopping, and still being a perennial loser/underdog after team-hopping - he lost or was underdog for 6 of 7 years from 11-17' with super-teams... no player was a perennial loser/underdog with talented casts - only Lebron

so he's winless pre-decision, and a perennial loser post-decision... overall, he's the biggest loser of any top 10 candidate, and therefore doesn't belong in top 10

DMAVS41

12-30-2019, 05:54 PM

1. Team hopping is irrelevant. Kobe being lucky enough to get drafted by a team that was also getting peak Shaq changes nothing.

Like I said...educate yourself on the kind of teams that win titles....not stupid narratives that have nothing to do with what happens on the court.

2. No, Kobe played with peak/prime Shaq and for one of the best coaches ever. Lebron has never played with a player as good as peak Shaq nor a coach as good as Phil. Sorry...I'm using your own criteria...and you can't even remain consistent.

3. Except the style wasn't superior. Kobe won less as the best player (the thing you said was important)...wasn't as good early on...and didn't have the longevity of Lebron either. Your argument fails, yet again, on your own criteria.

4. He didn't win with just Pau. Pau happened to be one of the better players in the league at the time. But, again, it takes a team...and the competition matters. The competition those years was historically weak as the other championship first options like Lebron/Wade/Dirk...didn't have elite teams.

Again, what teams had better players than the Lakers those years?

5. Again, how many players have won more than 3 rings as the best player on their team?

Please give me the exhaustive list.

Also, it isn't solely about rings...but I'm happy to go off your own ****ed up criteria because you can't even make sense setting all your own rules.

If it is all about rings, give me the players that won 3 or more rings as the best player.

Must be a really long list if you find something wrong with my statement that Lebron is one of the most winning players ever.

3ball

12-30-2019, 06:21 PM

1. Team hopping is irrelevant. Kobe being lucky enough to get drafted by a team that was also getting peak Shaq changes nothing.

On 2 different occasions, Lebron landed on teams favored to win the title in Year 1 - that's literally the easiest road possible

anyone can win like that - he teamed up with the best help possible twice (instant favorites to win it twice) - that's easier than DEVELOPING favorite status..

but we know why Lebron must skip the development stages - his narrow skillset turns teammates into spot-up shooters and therefore can't develop anyone..

but unfortunately, the development stages (adjusting to teammates and adjusting your game) requires superior basketball ability - Kobe did this to win and is therefore superior than LeShortCut

Like I said...educate yourself on the kind of teams that win titles....not stupid narratives that have nothing to do with what happens on the court.

Exactly - the kinds of teams, aka help needed to win

and Kobe's proved he could win with less help - he needed a bosh-level player at 2nd option to win, while Lebron needed bosh at 3rd option to win

it's clear as day but ur in denial again

2. No, Kobe played with peak/prime Shaq and for one of the best coaches ever. Lebron has never played with a player as good as peak Shaq nor a coach as good as Phil. Sorry...I'm using your own criteria...and you can't even remain consistent.

Kobe didn't "need" prime Shaq - Pau would've worked too, as he proved later on.

So Kobe needed less to win - he needed a bosh-level player at 2nd option to win, while Lebron needed bosh at 3rd option to win

it's clear as day but ur in denial again

3. Except the style wasn't superior. Kobe won less as the best player (the thing you said was important)...wasn't as good early on...and didn't have the longevity of Lebron either. Your argument fails, yet again, on your own criteria.

Lebron's style of turning teammates into spot-up shooters requires more talent, while Kobe style could win with less (just pau)

That makes Kobe's style superior... :confusedshrug:

Again, what teams had better players than the Lakers those years?

The defending champion Spurs, who were defeated by Kobe in 2008.

And the 2010 Celtics

4. He didn't win with just Pau. Pau happened to be one of the better players in the league at the time. But, again, it takes a team...and the competition matters. The competition those years was historically weak as the other championship first options like Lebron/Wade/Dirk...didn't have elite teams.

Pau wasn't all-nba before joining Kobe.

Bosh was all-nba before joining LeBron

Bosh and Pau are very comparable, yet Lebron needed them at 3rd option, while Kobe won with them at 2nd.. Kobe simply needed less help because his style was superior (didn't turn teammates into spot-up shooters)...

5. Again, how many players have won more than 3 rings as the best player on their team?

Lebron would have zero without team-hopping because he can't develop teammates/champions (turns teammates into spot-up shooters), and therefore needs ready-made favorites acquired via team-hopping.

He literally MUST team-hop for ready-made stars, because his style can't develop teammates/teams

Please give me the exhaustive list.

the goat

Also, it isn't solely about rings...but I'm happy to go off your own ****ed up criteria because you can't even make sense setting all your own rules.

I agree, which is why I said that Kobe beats Lebron in style of play and eye test, shooting ability, clutch, less help needed, better teammate maximization, and more...

and of course he has more rings as the man without team-hopping

Must be a really long list if you find something wrong with my statement that Lebron is one of the most winning players ever.

Not compared to top 20 players or non-team-hoppers (nearly everyone)

I currently have him at #16
.

stalkerforlife

12-30-2019, 06:25 PM

DMAVS the incognito Bransvestite is no match for 3ball.

Straight up ether.

NBASTATMAN

12-30-2019, 06:53 PM

90sgoat

12-30-2019, 07:16 PM

Dude we all know you are both the same guy.. :D

3Ball, are we the same poster?

DMAVS41

12-30-2019, 07:39 PM

1. Again, educate yourself on the types of teams that won. Narratives aren't relevant. I thought and continue to think Lebron was a bitch for joining Wade/Bosh. That doesn't change what types of teams historically win.

2. Yes, again, competition matters. What other elite championship first option had better help than Kobe in those years?

3. No, Kobe wasn't winning shit during his first 8 years if Shaq played for another team.

4. 2010 Celtics were nothing special and didn't have a championship first option anyway at that point with an older Pierce and post injury KG. Sorry, try again. Not sure why you bring up 08...Kobe lost in the finals to a team that, based on your own criteria, he should have destroyed. They got taken to 7 games by Joe Johnson and Lebron with inferior supporting casts...two players you argue are much worse than Kobe. Therefore, again...based on your own criteria...your argument fails.

5. Yes, Bosh and Pau were comparable...although I think Pau was better.

6. Irrelevant...answer the question. You keep listing 3 titles out of 17 years as the best player. I simply asked...how many other players have won 3 or more titles as the best player. Notice how you won't answer...again, your own criteria...and you can't answer.

7. Yes, I agree...MJ is the GOAT...what does that have to do with this?

8. Being gifted peak/prime Shaq for 8 years does not make a player better than another. Eye-test isn't relevant as I've watched them both play and think Lebron is clearly the better player.

9. It is going to be so painful for you. Lebron will go down as a top 5 player ever on pretty much all lists, just won athlete of the decade...is going to hold tons of records...and might be on his way to the best longevity of any player ever.

Good luck ever telling anyone in real life that you'd draft 15 players over Lebron starting a franchise in history.

3ball

12-30-2019, 07:53 PM

3Ball, are we the same poster?
nope

3ball

12-30-2019, 08:08 PM

1. Again, educate yourself on the types of teams that won. Narratives aren't relevant. I thought and continue to think Lebron was a bitch for joining Wade/Bosh. That doesn't change what types of teams historically win.

Kobe won with less.. :confusedshrug:

so he's better

2. Yes, again, competition matters. What other elite championship first option had better help than Kobe in those years?

Duncan in 08' and Pierce in 10' have a case

3. No, Kobe wasn't winning shit during his first 8 years if Shaq played for another team.

he would've if he had pau... or bosh

4. 2010 Celtics were nothing special

Lebron was more favored to beat those Celtics than Kobe.. but got destroyed and embarrassed... one of his many debacles

so once again, kobe did better

6. Irrelevant...answer the question. You keep listing 3 titles out of 17 years as the best player. I simply asked...how many other players have won 3 or more titles as the best player. Notice how you won't answer...again, your own criteria...and you can't answer.

it's irrelevant if one player is cheating/colluding to have the best help in the league.

that's what LeBron did.. so it isn't fair

but we know why Lebron must skip the development stages - his narrow skillset turns teammates into spot-up shooters and therefore can't develop anything (players or team)..

and unfortunately, the development stages (adjusting to teammates and adjusting your game) requires superior basketball ability - Kobe did this to win and is therefore superior than LeShortCut

7. Yes, I agree...MJ is the GOAT...what does that have to do with this?

you asked me to list the players with more than 3 titles as the man - only MJ does in the modern era, so I listed him, like you asked

8. Being gifted peak/prime Shaq for 8 years does not make a player better than another. Eye-test isn't relevant as I've watched them both play and think Lebron is clearly the better player.

Lebron is scared to take jumpers... :roll:

doesn't command a double-team... :roll:

he doesn't command a double because his long-dribble style allows coaches to just sit there and let him dribble, rather than double and spur ball movement.. and his jumper doesn't get hot/require getting the ball out of his hands.

so kobe is far superior

heck, kobe is a pure scorer while Lebron isn't.. it's a big flaw in Lebron's game (not being a pure scorer and instead being a herky-jerky, mechanical robot out there that coaches exploit time and time again)

9. It is going to be so painful for you. Lebron will go down as a top 5 player ever on pretty much all lists, just won athlete of the decade...is going to hold tons of records...and might be on his way to the best longevity of any player ever.

no, he won't even be top 10 in 10 years because his resume isn't that good... easily surpassable

kawhi will almost certainly pass him in rings for example - i'm not saying kawhi will be considered better than Lebron, but there will be conversation when he gets to 4 rings, and that conversation alone drops LeBron down the rankings...

ditto for Giannis and other upcoming stars - LeBron's resume isn't infallible like mj's or kareem's

Good luck ever telling anyone in real life that you'd draft 15 players over Lebron starting a franchise in history.

it's great that Lebron is a 6'8" CP3, but it's still an inferior way to play that gets inferior results..

15 guys are easily better, and if they team-hopped like Lebron, they'd win more because they play a superior way

DMAVS41

12-30-2019, 08:28 PM

1. I see...changing your criteria. Dirk won with less than Kobe and played better competition. I assume you have him as the better player.

2. Duncan in 08 for sure, but Kobe didn't win a title that year. You've made it clear that it is all about titles. Come on try to stay consistent. Pierce in 10 wasn't....certainly not in the Dirk/Lebron/Wade category.

3. No, he wouldn't have. You can't be this ignorant. They barely beat the Blazers in 00 and Kings in 02 with Shaq...you take Shaq off and replace him with a much worse player and then have to beat Shaq's team potentially as well? **** no...even for you this is an absurd take.

4. This isn't true. Lakers were favored to win the title in 2010 from the jump.

5. I'll take this as an admission that most titles in history aren't relevant and that your own criteria is flawed.

6. More players have won 3 or more as the best player in the modern era, but again...I agree MJ is the GOAT.

7. We see the game differently. I disagree with you...that is obvious. Not sure your point here.

8. Yes, he will...I'll bet you anything you want.

9. Yep, he's played an "inferior style"...that has resulted in one of the best careers ever.

3ball

12-30-2019, 09:47 PM

3. No, he wouldn't have. You can't be this ignorant. They barely beat the Blazers in 00 and Kings in 02 with Shaq...you take Shaq off and replace him with a much worse player and then have to beat Shaq's team potentially as well? **** no...even for you this is an absurd take.

so what? that was insane/abnormal competition

shaq doesn't win those tight series without kobe either

maybe peak wade would've won them too but he isn't the jumpshooter that kobe was, so he doesn't fit with shaq as well

4. Lakers were favored to win the title in 2010 from the jump.

Actually, the Cavs were the pre-playoffs favorite to win the ring:

https://www.sportsoddshistory.com/nba-main/?y=2009-2010&sa=nba&a=finals&o=r1
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/379924-2010-nba-playoffs-power-rankings-and-predictions

just like they were in 2009 (https://www.thespread.com/nba-articles/041609-2009-nba-finals-odds-to-win-cleveland-cavaliers-54-favorites-to-win-nba-title) and 2011

Also, the Cavs were -500 (https://www.thespread.com/nba-articles/042810-2010-nba-playoffs-series-odds-cavaliers-vs-celtics) favorites to beat Boston, while the Lakers were -190 (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/399456-lakers-vs-celtics-odds-kobe-bryant-heavy-favorite-to-get-finals-mvp).. so the cavs were WAY more favored than the Lakers... :eek: … that's why it was such a debacle that he failed to make it

5. I'll take this as an admission that most titles in history aren't relevant (based on talent) and that your own criteria is flawed.

tbh, the only teams in the last 40 years that had 2 bonafide 20-point stars as the 2nd and 3rd option (guys that had previously averaged 20) are the 80's Celtics (McHale/Parish), the 80's Lakers (Magic, Worthy) and Lebron's super-teams from 11-17'

Manu often came off the bench and never averaged a lot of points, while Dray isn't a bonafide star - in hindsight, it's quite remarkable that Curry had such a dominant team with a spot-up shooter as his 2nd option (klay) and role players after that

6. More players have won 3 or more as the best player in the modern era, but again...I agree MJ is the GOAT.

Who won more than 3 as the best player?... :biggums:

Waiting for your response on this one... :coleman:

7. We see the game differently. I disagree with you (about Lebron's jumpshooting and the viability of his long dribbles)...that is obvious. Not sure your point here.

how could you refute that Lebron's jumper isn't good? it literally sucks compared to kobe - let me know if you want me to post the jumpshooting stats to prove it to you.

and of course, any player that allows the defense to defend long-dribbles versus ball movement doesn't need to be doubled, especially if he can't shoot/won't get hot

otoh, as a kobe fan, you waited for that moment in the game when kobe got hot and galvanized his team, while the opposing coach calls timeout to make adjustments.. coaches had to keep kobe off-balance with double-teams and adjustments, otherwise Kobe might hit a few jumpers in a row and blow the game open

LeBron simply isn't a threat to blow the game open like kobe did most games... defenses can just sit back and watch him dribble with no threat of him getting hot - no wonder this brand needs to much talent to win... :facepalm

9. he's played an "inferior style"...that has resulted in one of the best careers ever.

his spot-up shooter approach can't win organically - it literally CANNOT grow a team into a champion - cannot adjust to teammates - cannot develop the best brand of ball...

so he's inferior to kobe… by a lot...

I see...changing your criteria. Dirk won with less than Kobe and played better competition. I assume you have him as the better player.

we're counting one-offs now?... kobe had a body of work (b2b) that required less help than Lebron's.. that's more substantial than a one-off

2. Duncan in 08 for sure, but Kobe didn't win a title that year. You've made it clear that it is all about titles. Come on try to stay consistent. Pierce in 10 wasn't....certainly not in the Dirk/Lebron/Wade category.

tbh, I left off a lot of playoff opponents that had equal or better talent than Kobe's 08-10' teams

Kobe had Pau/Odom, while Bynum/Artest were secondary role players - that isn't a lot of help

Nash had Amare getting 25 ppg against the Lakers, along with Jason Richardson and Grant Hill, among others - that matches or exceeds what Kobe had...

Ditto Deron Williams, who had Millsap, Boozer, Kirelenko, and others

Ditto Melo, who had Chauncey, Nene, Kenyon and others

All of these teams compare to the Lakers' talent... Then the Spurs had more... and sorry, but KG/Allen/Rondo > Pau/Odom... especially considering they had other great role players like Rasheed Wallace and Tony Allen
.

DMAVS41

12-30-2019, 10:09 PM

1. Yea, they needed each other, but Shaq was better and no way was Kobe winning with a Pau level player in place of Shaq like you claimed. You now have retracted that claim...good job, but you were wrong.

2. The Lakers started the year as the favorites like I said. Just go check basketball-reference...they have the odds.

3. You are setting arbitrary definitions again. Pippen didn't always average over 20 ppg in the playoffs, but he was an all-time great player.

Regardless, most teams that won were stacked. You seem like you are willing to accept reality here finally as you are shifting the argument again.

4. I said 3 or more, which would include Shaq, but the answer is Duncan. He was the best player on his team in 99/03/05/07.

5. Lebron shoots better than Kobe from 3 for his career...on a similar amount of attempts. What are you talking about? Kobe had a better mid-range game, but this notion that Lebron just can't shoot is hilariously stupid.

6. Organically? You mean like playing with Shaq and then a team in conference gifting you Gasol to have the best team in the league? How organic...

7. One off? Kobe only has one more title as the best player and Dirk never had a 2nd guy like Pau while playing against weak competition. So much dancing around just to avoid reality while you betray your own criteria.

8. Interesting. You've claimed Nash wasn't that good and could never win. Now he's a championship first option? Sorry mate, again, you have to try to stay consistent. Deron and Melo aren't in the company of championship first options...try again.

We all know the truth...

3ball

12-30-2019, 11:19 PM

.

5. Lebron shoots better than Kobe from 3 for his career...on a similar amount of attempts. What are you talking about? Kobe had a better mid-range game, but this notion that Lebron just can't shoot is hilariously stupid.

TLDR: Kobe made 700 jumpers in 2006 - that's 250 more than Lebron's highest season, at an eFG% that would rank 4th in Lebron's 17 year career... MJ also made 700+ jumpers at an eFG that would rank 1st in Lebron's career... Both Kobe and MJ were FAR more skilled jumpshooters

Effective FG% on all jumpshots for Kobe, MJ, Lebron

.................eFG% All Jumpshots

Lebron 2004 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 35.6%, 324/998
Lebron 2005 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2004-05&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 39.9%, 400/1136
Lebron 2006 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 41.7%, 423/1166
Lebron 2007 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 39.5%, 372/1066
Lebron 2008 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 39.4%, 338/1001
Lebron 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 42.2%, 366/1024
Lebron 2010 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.4%, 356/970
Lebron 2011 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 45.4%, 393/968
Lebron 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.7%, 290/726
Lebron 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 49.0%, 333/784
Lebron 2014 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 47.0%, 288/736
Lebron 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.1%, 280/788
Lebron 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 39.0%, 181/543
Lebron 2017 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 44.8%, 226/643
Lebron 2018 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 47.2%, 304/802
Lebron 2019 (http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 47.2%, 210/563

Bryant 2000 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/shooting/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 38.5%, 328/851
Bryant 2001 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/shooting/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.0%, 460/1141
Bryant 2002 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/shooting/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 41.8%, 478/1184
Bryant 2003 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/shooting/?Season=2002-03&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 44.1%, 597/1494
Bryant 2004 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 40.3%, 282/787
Bryant 2005 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/shooting/?Season=2004-05&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.5%, 346/947
Bryant 2006 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 46.5%, 709/1724
Bryant 2007 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 46.7%, 556/1358
Bryant 2008 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 44.6%, 468/1217
Bryant 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/977/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 45.0%, 519/1285

Jordan 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/893/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 51.2%, 727/1528
Jordan 1998 (http://stats.nba.com/player/893/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 42.4%, 600/1449

3ball

12-30-2019, 11:20 PM

1. Yea, they needed each other, but Shaq was better and no way was Kobe winning with a Pau level player in place of Shaq like you claimed. You now have retracted that claim...good job, but you were wrong.

okay, I concede this one, but you'll have to concede the next one below.. :confusedshrug:

2. The Lakers started the year as the favorites like I said. Just go check basketball-reference...they have the odds.

Actually, you were wrong on the original point that the Cavs were a much bigger favorite over Boston than the Lakers in 2010 - the Cavs were favored by far more than the Lakers (-500 to -190), but lost in a massive upset, while Kobe won with lesser odds.. so you were wrong on that.

You deflected from this to say the Lakers were preseason favorites - who cares - the Cavs were the pre-playoffs favorites and were much bigger favorites against Boston (the original point).. overall, bron was favorite in 2009-2011 but lost each year

3. You are setting arbitrary definitions again. Pippen didn't always average over 20 ppg in the playoffs, but he was an all-time great player.

now ur deflecting - pippen is just 1 guy - the point was that Lebron had the only team with 2 teammates that were 20-point scorers, other than the 80's Celtics and Lakers.

and Pippen didn't just miss 20 ppg in the playoffs - in the regular season, he only had 2 seasons where he averaged 20+ alongside MJ (1992, 1997) and averaged 8 ppg in 1988 and 14 ppg in 1989.

furthermore, he literally has 10+ series where he averaged 15 ppg on 33-40%... you guys were crying about Lebron losing with 18 on 38% from Mo and the #3 defense... MJ won with that all the time and infact never lost with that kind of help on both sides of the ball..

Regardless, most teams that won were stacked. You seem like you are willing to accept reality here finally as you are shifting the argument again.

there's levels - don't act like all teams that win have the same level of stackedness..

the fact that you're using that argument proves you're wrong on the main issue - Lebron's teams are stacked more than most - how many guys had a top 3 player in the league as a sidekick AND a top 4 PF???... like, no one... maybe Magic with Kareem and Worthy.. that's it

4. I said 3 or more, which would include Shaq, but the answer is Duncan. He was the best player on his team in 99/03/05/07.

ok and good catch..

5. Lebron shoots better than Kobe from 3 for his career...on a similar amount of attempts. What are you talking about? Kobe had a better mid-range game, but this notion that Lebron just can't shoot is hilariously stupid.

There's levels... Lebron doesn't have a "blow the game open" jumpshot like Kobe, Curry or MJ...

His jumper is so far below these guys that it's blasphemy to defend his jumper in comparison... see the jumpshooting stats in the previous post.. notice how Kobe shoots great at high volume, while Lebron's efficiency is lower in his high volume years

ultimately, LeBron can't just start jacking jumpers to get his team back in the game or to take over... and he can't just start jacking jumpers and have everyone think it's okay - if he misses a couple it's like "gee, there's that broke jumper again - he should stop shooting and go to the hole"

6. Organically? You mean like playing with Shaq and then a team in conference gifting you Gasol to have the best team in the league? How organic...

More like how MJ did it... where he had to adjust to teammates and to fit his game into the best brand of basketball (equal-opportunity).. he hated it, but he did the hard work and reached that higher level of ball

But the way Kobe did it is still more respectable because Pau simply brought his cast up to the level of Duncan, Nash, Melo, and Deron, while Lebron assembled a level of talent that he knew was superior to anyone else in the league (only the Heat and Spurs had a Big 3, and the Heat's was better)....

so kobe's cast wasn't a "not 6, not 7" cast and clearly better than everyone else's like Lebron's was... :confusedshrug:

7. One off? Kobe only has one more title as the best player and Dirk never had a 2nd guy like Pau while playing against weak competition. So much dancing around just to avoid reality while you betray your own criteria.

I'm gonna be honest - you might have me on this one - Dirk might be a top 10 player or real close - at one point, I had him ranked #10, although my latest rankings have him at 25...

but you've convinced me that he's too low and my initial ranking is closer to accurate.. if he had a 2nd option like Pau, who knows how many rings he'd have as "the man"... heck, he carried a fringe all-star josh howard to 67 wins in the West... that's better than Lebron carrying a 2 fringe all-stars to 66 wins in the East (mo, zydrunas, and all-d varejao).

8. Interesting. You've claimed Nash wasn't that good and could never win. Now he's a championship first option? Sorry mate, again, you have to try to stay consistent. Deron and Melo aren't in the company of championship first options...try again.

When did I mention anything about championship 1st options?... you're putting words in my mouth to avoid the point being made that Nash, Melo, Duncan, and Deron had comparable supporting talent to Kobe
.

DMAVS41

12-30-2019, 11:21 PM

3ball

12-30-2019, 11:27 PM

Yes, like I said...

Kobe was a better mid-range jump shooter. Just like Lebron was a better 3 point shooter than Kobe. Just like Lebron is a better passer...better at getting to the rim...better on the glass...better defensively...etc.

Why are you arguing about something I agreed with?
Lebron isn't a better 3-point shooter.. he just focused on it more... but kobe could "go off" way better from 3

maybe LeBron is a better 30-foot shooter.. he seems to make those at a good clip, although it takes him 5 seconds to wind up and release the ball

Ultimately, there's levels... Lebron doesn't have a "blow the game open" jumpshot like Kobe, Curry or MJ...

His jumper is so far below these guys that it's blasphemy to defend his jumper in comparison... see the jumpshooting stats in the previous post.. notice how Kobe shoots great at high volume, while Lebron's efficiency is lower in his high volume years

ultimately, LeBron can't just start jacking jumpers to get his team back in the game or to take over... and he can't just start jacking jumpers and have everyone think it's okay - if he misses a couple it's like "gee, there's that broke jumper again - he should stop shooting and go to the hole"

DMAVS41

12-30-2019, 11:36 PM

1. Good

2. Nope. Again, check basketball-reference. Lakers were +225 and the Cavs were +300.

3. Deflecting? No, I'm simply saying that loaded teams usually win. As for your shifted focus. Bosh never scored over 20 a game on the Heat. Love never scored over 20 a game for the Cavs. Not in the regular season or playoffs.

So, like usual, you choose to not live in reality.

4. Yes, absolutely there are levels. Lebron had a historically stacked team in 11 and 12...after that? Some really good, but nothing crazy. Kyrie/Love is an over-rated pairing (not offensively...they were great) because the team defense with those two guys is always going to be a bit of a struggle.

Nothing at all crazy compared to most of the best players that won a lot of titles outside of Duncan/MJ/Hakeem.

Curious...you rank Kobe over Hakeem. Hakeem won 2 with far less help than Kobe did...at least one of them. Why do you rank Kobe higher?

5. True, Lebron blows the game open in other ways...like attacking the basket and controlling the flow of a game similar to Magic. He does also get hot on jumpers, just not as often as Kobe. But this was also a big negative for Kobe as he shotjacked his team out of enough games for it to be a real problem with Shaq and almost cost his team the title in 2010.

6. Yes, MJ was better than Lebron. Not sure why this needs repeating constantly. However, you tend to under-rate his help. It was better than you care to admit.

7. Cool

8. I said "championship first option"...my point being is that why would I be surprised that Kobe can beat Melo/Nash/Williams...etc.? Kobe was a better player than all of them very clearly and he had as good or better help.

Kobe might have beaten teams led by Dirk/Lebron/Wade of similar strength, but you know there is a big difference in beating Deron Williams or Melo than it is being guys like Dirk/Wade/Lebron...they were the real other best players in the league in 09 and 10...and they didn't have his kind of help.

Not surprising, the very next year...Dirk got that help and the Mavs swept the Lakers.

I'm not saying Dirk was for sure better or something, just that teams outside of the best player really matter...and when a player as great as Kobe has a great team around him...it takes another all-time great with a great team to challenge him.

And I don't think the rest of the league in 09 and 10 really had that. Nash and the Suns were actually the closest imo, but it is just so hard to win with a terrible defense like the Suns had.

DMAVS41

12-30-2019, 11:39 PM

Lebron isn't a better 3-point shooter.. he just focused on it more... but kobe could "go off" way better from 3

maybe LeBron is a better 30-foot shooter.. he seems to make those at a good clip, although it takes him 5 seconds to wind up and release the ball

Ultimately, there's levels... Lebron doesn't have a "blow the game open" jumpshot like Kobe, Curry or MJ...

His jumper is so far below these guys that it's blasphemy to defend his jumper in comparison... see the jumpshooting stats in the previous post.. notice how Kobe shoots great at high volume, while Lebron's efficiency is lower in his high volume years

ultimately, LeBron can't just start jacking jumpers to get his team back in the game or to take over... and he can't just start jacking jumpers and have everyone think it's okay - if he misses a couple it's like "gee, there's that broke jumper again - he should stop shooting and go to the hole"

Lebron isn't better in the sense that if they went to the gym and had a shooting contest from 3...Kobe would easily win.

However, in games and picking spots and not jacking up terrible shots? Lebron was as good or better...he took more 3's than Kobe and shot better from 3 for his career....nothing else really matters on that front.

Again, yes...I agree. Kobe could blow up games getting hot as a jump shooter in a way Lebron couldn't (although he does this a little more than you give him credit for)...

But Kobe couldn't dominate the game in terms of attacking the rim and setting up teammates in the same way Lebron does.

I've told you this before, but you are giving Kobe credit for being MJ. He wasn't MJ...

3ball

12-30-2019, 11:48 PM

Lebron isn't better in the sense that if they went to the gym and had a shooting contest from 3...Kobe would easily win.

However, in games and picking spots and not jacking up terrible shots? Lebron was as good or better...he took more 3's than Kobe and shot better from 3 for his career....nothing else really matters on that front.

Again, yes...I agree. Kobe could blow up games getting hot as a jump shooter in a way Lebron couldn't (although he does this a little more than you give him credit for)...

But Kobe couldn't dominate the game in terms of attacking the rim and setting up teammates in the same way Lebron does.

I've told you this before, but you are giving Kobe credit for being MJ. He wasn't MJ...
mmmmm

DMAVS41

12-31-2019, 01:20 AM

Kobe's superior jumpshooting ability prevented him from being exploited like this - this is just one clear-cut example of why Kobe was better and would've won far more in Lebron's shoes

Far more?

I mean, I'm not even going to down that road as it will be absurd.

But, again...you really have to stop pretending like offense has been the problem for Lebron since he got good teams. It hasn't....outside of 10 and 11...and I hesitate to even call the 10 Cavs good because they were so limited outside of him. And, as has been pointed out to you before...he didn't even play the style you claim is bad in the 11 finals.

In 09 the Cavs had a 111 ortg against the Magic. That would have been 5th best in the league. Very good overall offense going against the best defense in the league. Yet they gave up a 113 ortg...to a team that only had the 11th best offense. They lost more because of defense.

We've been over 14, but they gave up an absurdly high 121 ortg...that would have been best in the league by nearly 9 points.

In 15 his team was decimated and while I think his series is way over-rated in terms of his raw numbers...not even you can argue he should have won that series.

In 17 and 18 they got torched. 121 ortg and 125 ortg...

Like I said, blame Lebron for it all on defense....just don't pretend like it was the offensive style that was the problem with most of these teams.

You could make that argument in 10 and 15, but again...even you'd admit those were super limited teams.

In 11 he didn't play Lebron ball...

And in 14/17/18...his teams got torched.

Even if Kobe got more out of those offenses...he's not doing anything to improve the defenses. And that simply isn't going to be good enough to win any of those series other than 2011.

And winning in 12/13/16 aren't even close to locks for Kobe.

So, far more? Just no.

Ainosterhaspie

12-31-2019, 03:26 AM

Is Luka even physically capable of making those plays 3ball posted of MJ GIFs? Why respond to a question about how Luka should work with Porzingis by basically saying move as fast and jump as high as MJ. Ok, that's the fantasy world answer, but in the real world Luka can't do that so a different solution seems to be needed.

--

DMAVS covered 2014 well, but as I've mentioned before, the Heat weren't playing LeBron ball. They actually ran an offense and generally tried to feature Bosh offensively especially early in games. That failed against the Spurs and it had nothing to do with LeBron being too ball dominant. Just because that narrative makes sense (sort of) in his Cleveland stint, doesn't mean it's been the same throughout his career. That's not how the Heat played. He was very active off ball there.

But as DMAVS points out, the problem that series for the Heat was defense. In particular their defensive system was one that required high levels of energy. They could shut teams down when they really cranked up the effort, but they could only maintain it briefly. But by the end of their four year run with Wade breaking down and other key contributors like Battier being old, their defense was ripe for exploitation.

Their vulnerability inside was a problem for the entirety of the Miami LeBron era and only somewhat adequately addressed by Chris Ansderson who was most effective in 2013. Outside of him, they never had a decent center. Not only that, but Bosh wasn't a great defender in the paint. He did really well on the perimeter blowing up pick and rolls, but regularly got abused inside.

Combine weak interior defense with a defensive system that requires high levels of energy to be effective, yet is being run by old, injured players run down by four consecutive finals runs, and it isn't hard to understand how an excellent coach and a team with a deep, though not top heavy roster was able to exploit it .

--

It's weird that a thread ostensibly about Luka playing better turns into another MJ/LeBron pissing match,but that's literally the only thing 3ball knows how to do and OP summoned him, so :ohwell:.

--

I wouldn't knock Luka for his age. He already showed he's mature way above his age in Euroleague. The Mavs championship barriers are much more about supporting talent deficiencies than Luca's age and lack of experience, something that tends to be overstated as a factor for titles.

Ainosterhaspie

12-31-2019, 03:45 AM

Lebron had a historically stacked team in 11 and 12...after that?
2011 was not an historically stacked team. I'd put 2013 as the most stacked Heat team, at least once they added Chris Anderson, though Wade's injury had them limping to the finish.

But 2011 was horrid outside the big three. That Joel Anthony was starting finals games says it all really. Mike Miller was supposed to be their solid role player, but he never was healthy that year. The big three were fantastic and certainly no one had top end talent to match, but the Heat had no depth that year and depth is important. It's one reason the Mavs won that series.

That isn't to say the Heat shouldn't have won. James was inexcusably bad, and had he played anywhere close to his ability, they would have. (Though the quality of that Mavs team and coaching is generally not given enough respect.)

ImKobe

12-31-2019, 03:52 AM

2011 was not an historically stacked team.

:yaohappy:

DMAVS41

12-31-2019, 10:36 AM

2011 was not an historically stacked team. I'd put 2013 as the most stacked Heat team, at least once they added Chris Anderson, though Wade's injury had them limping to the finish.

But 2011 was horrid outside the big three. That Joel Anthony was starting finals games says it all really. Mike Miller was supposed to be their solid role player, but he never was healthy that year. The big three were fantastic and certainly no one had top end talent to match, but the Heat had no depth that year and depth is important. It's one reason the Mavs won that series.

That isn't to say the Heat shouldn't have won. James was inexcusably bad, and had he played anywhere close to his ability, they would have. (Though the quality of that Mavs team and coaching is generally not given enough respect.)

This is a common misconception.

You are right about 13 if they were healthy and Wade/Bosh were playing at their 11 levels, but they weren't....so in the playoffs that team was absolutely not historically stacked.

As for 11...they had 2 all-time great players playing at their near peaks...and another all-nba caliber player. That is rare...even after the slow start...they were elite on both ends of the court and destroyed everyone in the East en route to the finals. Also, guys like Chalmers/Haslem/Anthony actually fit in very well for how the Heat played.

You are letting Lebron's meltdown and what happens in the finals color your view of the team too much.

If Lebron doesn't meltdown...they probably win that series in 5 games and we are viewing them as one of the best teams ever...

They had the 3rd best offense and 5th best defense. Again, after a poor nearly qtr of the season to settle in. They then went 12-3 in the East playoffs and looked unbeatable. And despite Lebron melting down...they were still right in every game to win it. They had to absolutely choke game 2 to lose. Shouldn't have been close.

Have to give credit to the Mavs of course...they played a role with Dirk/Terry being clutch and the defense/zone limiting Lebron, but that team should have breezed to the title.

Ainosterhaspie

12-31-2019, 02:07 PM

Ainosterhaspie

12-31-2019, 02:16 PM

:yaohappy:
2017 Warriors, 2001 Lakers, 1996 Bulls,1986 Celtics, 1983 Sixers, various iterations of Russell's Celtics.
These are historically stacked teams. The 2011 Heat are not in that club.

DMAVS41

12-31-2019, 02:19 PM

Haslem? He missed almost the entire year and first two rounds of the playoffs due to injury. (Played one game with very limited minutes in the second round.) His FG% was under 40%. He had some nice contributions in later seasons, but coming back from an injury that had him miss most of the year, he was not a quality role player that season/playoffs. Not to mention he played the same position as Bosh, so he's forced out of position to the center spot which he doesn't have the size for.

Anthony? Another undersized five who despite having the worst hands in recent memory, I mean the dude struggled to catch the ball and I wouldn't trust him to finish if he was alone under the basket, somehow was a starter on a title contender. Most contending teams would have him glued to the bench only playing matchup dependent spot minutes. He could be completely ignored on the offensive end. He was a moderately competent defender and rebounder, but that's as much praise as I can give him. If he's a starter, the team he's on isn't historically stacked.

Chalmers was actually a decent role player. He's the sort of player that's around 7 or 8 on the depth chart for most championship caliber teams, and the Heat probably should have played him more. Instead they kept trying to squeeze out the last bits of Bibby's effectiveness which was already all used up. Bibby was awful in the playoffs that year.

And Bosh was only all NBA one time four years earlier so calling him all-NBA caliber is a bit of a stretch. But that minor quibble aside, yes the Heat had some of the best talent ever in their first three players. Depth matters though, and the Heat had no depth. They were entirely reliant on the top three players. This, along with James' own improvement, is why they were better in 2012 and 2013 despite Wade fading as a player. Battier, Allen, Anderson an improved Chalmers and even the addition of Norris Cole all made the Heat significantly better/more stacked in subsequent years.

That the Heat rampaged through the East and should have comfortably beat Dallas says more about the overall quality of the competition that year. It was not because that roster was historically stacked.

You aren't understanding the value of peak Wade...

The regular season doesn't speak to your point as they had 3rd best offense and 5th best defense. Again, despite taking nearly a qtr of the season to gel and figure stuff out.

Haslem got right and was healthy for the ECF and Finals. So not sure why you bring up him being hurt...that actually makes my point...they were missing a key role player and still torched the league overall.

You are just arguing semantics. When you get peak Lebron/Wade on the same team with health...and add a 3rd player like Bosh...you are historically stacked.

You are in the Shaq/Kobe...Magic/Kareem...Bird/McHale...Jordan/Pippen....groupings based on just Lebron/Wade...then you throw in a player like Bosh? Again, at his peak?

That is historically stacked.

Yes, the 13 team was better when healthy, but the problem is they weren't even close to healthy in the playoffs...which is what we are talking about.

Just looking at the metrics alone...there is an argument for the 11 team being the best. They were the healthiest and the most balanced in terms of offense/defense...all year.

Is what it is. Lebron melted down and ruined the chance for that team to rightfully go down as one of the better teams ever.

DMAVS41

12-31-2019, 02:21 PM

2017 Warriors, 2001 Lakers, 1996 Bulls,1986 Celtics, 1983 Sixers, various iterations of Russell's Celtics.
These are historically stacked teams. The 2011 Heat are not in that club.

Saying a team is "historically stacked" does not mean they are the best team ever or more stacked than all other teams.

False equivalence.

I'm not even that high on Bosh, but if you are going to list the 01 Lakers...I mean...Bosh is easily worth Fisher/Horry by himself as a player...and I doubt you think Rick Fox or Shaw or whoever else they had is really moving the needle that much.

You are being results oriented here....you wouldn't have this opinion if the Heat won 63 games and went 16-4 en route to the title...which is what they should have done if they didn't start slow and Lebron didn't fall apart.

Ainosterhaspie

12-31-2019, 06:11 PM

What metrics are you talking about? Because I saw a Heat offense that was almost entirely reliant on the big three in 2011. In the following years they actually had some quality depth. Battier in particular was a tremendous depth upgrade both for his defensive versatility and for his floor spacing on offense.

Chalmers improved to the point where by the 2013 finals he was a huge contributor in game six. He could actually turn in the sort of game changing role player performances that the best teams always have.

The additions of Allen and Anderson in 2013 made a significant difference. Anderson in particular because he was serviceable in the one position where the Heat had desperate need. The Heat in 2013 could run lineups like Chalmers/Wade/James/Battier/Bosh that were both excellent defensively and had great offensive spacing and balance. They could put in Allen for Wade or Bosh for improved spacing for LeBron to exploit.

I'm leaving out Norris Cole, but he had his moments too. Not a great player by any meams, but he could contribute here and there. In 2011 it felt like no one but the big three could be counted on to change a game. In 2012 they overwhelmed OKC with waves of depth; in 2013 their depth improved. James was a superior player after 2011 so that mitigates Wade's decline, and Bosh improved slightly as well.

I think the 2012 and 13 Heat would wipe the floor with the 2011 Heat. Not just when healthy but in any given playoff round from those two years. And that's not just because James was better, even though he was, its because their depth was much better.

DMAVS41

12-31-2019, 06:20 PM

3ball

12-31-2019, 07:44 PM

Curious...you rank Kobe over Hakeem. Hakeem won 2 with far less help than Kobe did...at least one of them. Why do you rank Kobe higher?

Simple explanation for this... Imagine if the 1990 Pistons, 2013 Heat or 2017 Warriors all died in a plane crash... The title would be 100% up for grabs in those years.. Anyone could've won..

That's the environment that Hakeem won in 1994 and 1995... A lesser team can win in that exact kind of situation - So I'm not all that impressed with Hakeem's titles - it wasn't the normal competitive environment.

5. True, Lebron blows the game open in other ways...like attacking the basket and controlling the flow of a game similar to Magic.

sorry, but long-dribbling that's designed to slow down the pace doesn't "blow the game open".. it slows the game down and gives the defense a rest... it's the QUICK-HITTING offense that blows a game open (jumpshooting and ball movement), not Lebron's long dribbles that opposing coaches infact prefer (stan van gundy wanted him to dribble and score, rather than double him and see the ball move)

Lebron does also get hot on jumpers, just not as often as Kobe.

anytime kobe hit 2-3 jumpers in a row, the Lakers usually won that quarter going away because it would juice the whole team..

he did this basically every game.

Lebron's jumper gets hot infrequently by comparison.. it's not close.. Lebron plays an entirely different way (not a pure scorer or shooter.. he's more of pippen-like, mechanical player and bricklayer)

But this was also a big negative for Kobe as he shotjacked his team out of enough games

kobe did shoot his team out of games, but that's his swashbuckling, high variance style, which ultimately came out on top at the highest level... it was positive expected value in the end on the championship level, so who cares..

ultimately, coaches had to defend against his jumper "blowing the game open" by frequently getting the ball out of his hands/doubling him and keeping him off-balance.. Whereas opposing coaches know it's best to leave Lebron alone and let him dribble - better to defend long-dribbling than ball-movement..

2. Nope. Again, check basketball-reference. Lakers were +225 and the Cavs were +300.

My original statement was that the 2010 Cavs were more favored against Boston than the Lakers were - you responded by saying the Lakers were preseason favorites to win it, which isn't a rebuttal to what I said

so who was more favored versus Boston in 2010 - Cavs or Lakers? (the original point)

and who was the pre-playoffs favorites in 2010? (my rebuttal to your pre-season odds deflection)

3. Deflecting? No, I'm simply saying that loaded teams usually win. As for your shifted focus. Bosh never scored over 20 a game on the Heat. Love never scored over 20 a game for the Cavs. Not in the regular season or playoffs.

The trios of Lebron/Wade/Bosh and Lebron/Kyrie/Love were the greatest assemblage of "offense-carrying 1st options" ever, according to 538, until KD joined the Warriors:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-15-2019/hYQBCO.gif

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/superteams-like-the-warriors-usually-underperform-will-the-kevin-durant-era-be-different/

notice how the Heat and Cavs had underachieved the OFFENSIVE expectation, not the defensive one... aka bron-ball

So, like usual, you choose to not live in reality.

No, I just showed you that professional statisticians (538) that agree with me, not you - see the previous response above

So you're the one ignoring the facts

(an example of facts you're unwilling to accept:. the Cavs were nearly 3 times as favored to beat Boston than the Lakers were in 2010 - so accept that Lebron failure... -500 status is massive favorite.. lebron was actually more favored vs the 09' Magic at -700)

4. Yes, absolutely there are levels. Lebron had a historically stacked team in 11 and 12...after that? Some really good, but nothing crazy. Kyrie/Love is an over-rated pairing (not offensively...they were great) because the team defense with those two guys is always going to be a bit of a struggle.

Wade was still putting up prime Pippen numbers in 2013 and 2014 (21/5/5 in those regular seasons... and 20/5/5 on great efficiency in 13' Finals and 14' ECF)

But I would agree that prime Pippen numbers aren't world-beating at 2nd option - so you'd be right about the 13/14 Heat if not for Bosh, who was only 29 years old in 2014 and still in his prime - he's a MONSTER 3rd option.. can do it all, although he didn't get to alongside Lebron.

CONTINUED.....

.

3ball

12-31-2019, 07:46 PM

.
CONTINUED...

3ball

12-31-2019, 07:58 PM

Is Luka even physically capable of making those plays 3ball posted of MJ GIFs? Why respond to a question about how Luka should work with Porzingis by basically saying move as fast and jump as high as MJ.

I could've posted a bunch of catch-and-shoots by MJ, but that's pretty boring - so how about this kind of off-ball quick score:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-18-2019/KDrt5G.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-20-2019/gPyYaV.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/4Hx8qg.gif

tpols

12-31-2019, 08:04 PM

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-18-2019/KDrt5G.gif

man... it was pretty much a punching match to get open back then.

:lol

DMAVS41

12-31-2019, 08:10 PM

I'll try and clean this up...

1. You continue to only focus on offensive help. Yes, the Cavs with Kyrie/Love were great offensively...however, the defense on those teams was simply not that great.

I've given you this example before. The 04 Mavs were arguably the best offense ever relative to the league they played in...yet nobody in their right mind thought they should be favorites to win the title. Why? Because the team was only designed to be good at offense...and having one of the worst defenses in the league is almost always failing to win the title.

Your problem is that you don't accurately evaluate Lebron's teams because you are too biased to see reality.

2. Kobe and Lebron are different players. We've been over this. I disagree that you think taking long 2's and being less efficient is better for the team. And lets be clear...that is what Kobe did. He was a less efficient offensive player and took way more bad shots and wasted way more possessions than Lebron.

Doesn't really matter who would win a shooting contest or a footwork drill when the in game result is what it was.

3. The pre-season odds are better there actually because we were talking about the team strength of the Lakers vs Cavs. The reason the Celtics were treated that way gambling wise going into the Cavs series is because they didn't look very good all year. Then they beat the Cavs...then they beat the Magic...and starting getting more respect based on that.

So you are artificially inflating the Cavs here based on poor logic.

The point was simple...the Lakers were thought to be better than the Cavs from the jump of the season...which is exactly what I said....and exactly what the gambling odds dictated.

You do this often...you make a statement to try to make a bigger point that actually doesn't follow. It may work on people that are dumber or don't know the details of things, but it won't work here.

4. Again, Kobe didn't win the title in 08. Please stop listing the 08 Spurs/Duncan. He didn't win the title. You have made it clear that winning rings is what matters.

KG/Pierce in 10 don't qualify...they were not championship first options. They were not on par with Dirk/Lebron/Wade.

Again, when KG was actually that guy in 08 before his injury. Kobe lost. When he went up against Dirk..he lost.

Funny how that works isn't it. It is almost like team strength and competition really matter.

ArbitraryWater

12-31-2019, 08:11 PM

Shouldnt the fact that Luka had the Mavs running a historically high ORTG show some that offense wasnt the problem? No, they focus on their own stupid little trivias.

Yeah, "Kobe won with less", not for the year he actually played though...

Help isnt assessed historically, but relative to the time/year.

Kobe had by far the best help of any top 5 player from 2008-2010, and 2000-2004.

The same could NEVER be said for LeBron, but once.

Ainosterhaspie

12-31-2019, 08:13 PM

@DMAVS

2012 and 2013 Heat had better playoff ORtgs and DRtgs than 2011 though. And 2013 had better SRS too. 2012 was best defensive regular season by DRtg, with 2011 only marginally better than 2013. 2013 was the best ORtg, 2012 lags significantly. Lockout shortened season may have something to do with it. Precious little there to say 2011 was more stacked than 2012 or 13.

Depth may not matter when you're talking about number 9 or 10 on the depth chart, but you need 7 reliable guys to have a higher level team. The Heat had that in 12 and 13
You had stuff like Mike Miller going 7 of 8 from three for 23 points in game five against OKC, Chalmers going off for 25 in game four of that series and Battier putting up 17 on 5 of 7 from three. Having several outside threats that had to be respected made it easier for the big three. They were actually playing five on five when on offense instead of three on five like they often did in 2011.

Joel Anthony a big minute starter in 2011 had a grand total of 2 minutes in the OKC series. That alone speaks volumes about the depth improvement that year. The Heat still didn't really have a traditional answer to bigs, but they could at least go small primarily thanks to the addition of Battier, and counter bigs with pace and space.

And it's not like Wade was washed in '12 or '13. He wasn't always consistent, but he came up big numerous times. The '12 Pacers series in particular stands out for me because Bosh went down and Wade had some monster games to get past the Pacers.

Bosh may have missed the end of the Pacers series and start of the Celtics series, but he returned in time to help bring the Heat back from the brink of elimination against the Celtics . I don't think he was any worse in 2013 than 2011, in fact I think he was better.

James undoubtedly was better. Bosh was about the same. Wade was inconsistent and overall worse. 12 and 13 Heat were much better 4-7 (probably at least 4-10) on the depth chart. A better James plus much better depth made the 12 and 13 Heat much better teams than 2011.

ArbitraryWater

12-31-2019, 08:14 PM

DMAVS41

12-31-2019, 08:20 PM

2012 and 2013 Heat had better playoff ORtgs and DRtgs than 2011 though. And 2013 had better SRS too. 2012 was best defensive regular season by DRtg, with 2011 only marginally better than 2013. 2013 was the best ORtg, 2012 lags significantly. Lockout shortened season may have something to do with it. Precious little there to say 2011 was more stacked than 2012 or 13.

Depth may not matter when you're talking about number 9 or 10 on the depth chart, but you need 7 reliable guys to have a higher level team. The Heat had that in 12 and 13
You had stuff like Mike Miller going 7 of 8 from three for 23 points in game five against OKC, Chalmers going off for 25 in game four of that series and Battier putting up 17 on 5 of 7 from three. Having several outside threats that had to be respected made it easier for the big three. They were actually playing five on five when on offense instead of three on five like they often did in 2011.

Joel Anthony a big minute starter in 2011 had a grand total of 2 minutes in the OKC series. That alone speaks volumes about the depth improvement that year. The Heat still didn't really have a traditional answer to bigs, but they could at least go small primarily thanks to the addition of Battier, and counter bigs with pace and space.

And it's not like Wade was washed in '12 or '13. He wasn't always consistent, but he came up big numerous times. The '12 Pacers series in particular stands out for me because Bosh went down and Wade had some monster games to get past the Pacers.

Bosh may have missed the end of the Pacers series and start of the Celtics series, but he returned in time to help bring the Heat back from the brink of elimination against the Celtics . I don't think he was any worse in 2013 than 2011, in fact I think he was better.

James undoubtedly was better. Bosh was about the same. Wade was inconsistent and overall worse. 12 and 13 Heat were much better 4-7 (probably at least 4-10) on the depth chart. A better James plus much better depth made the 12 and 13 Heat much better teams than 2011.

Here are the ratings...you have to do them relative to the league.

11 - 1st SRS - 3rd ORTG - 5th DRTG
12 - 4th SRS - 8th ORTG - 4th DRTG
13 - 2nd SRS - 2nd ORTG - 9th DRTG

Again, I've already agreed that it isn't all about the ratings and that the 13 Heat were the best if healthy. The problem is...they weren't remotely healthy/right in the playoffs.

My point is simple.

Look at 11...they had an expected win/loss of 61-21...best SRS and were elite on both ends (especially by the end of the season)...they had all those metrics despite playing roughly a qtr of the season nowhere near as good as they were by the playoffs. IIRC they started the year 8-7...

Yes, they lacked some depth, but when you have peak Lebron/Wade/Bosh...and can do the above...then dominate the East playoffs...

You are historically stacked by any reasonable definition. Star players are what moves the needle in the NBA. Very few teams in NBA history ever had a top 3 approaching the 11 Heat.

At some point it is just semantics.

And we all know if Lebron plays at his normal level and they win the title...nobody is arguing this...

Ainosterhaspie

12-31-2019, 08:35 PM

Big disagree.

If LeBron plays up to his standard, the 2011 Heat are easily their best team.
Why?

Post 11 James > 11 James.
Post 11 Bosh >/= 11 Bosh.
Post 11 Chalners > 11 Chalmers.
12, 13 Battier >>>>>>whoever.
12, 13 Haslem> 11 Haslem.
13 Anderson>>>>>>whoever.
12, 13 Anthony on the bench >>> 11 Anthony starting.
12, 13 Miller > 11 Miller.
13 Allen > 11 Bibby.

12, 13 Wade < 11 Wade.

Wade is the only thing about 2011 that was better than 12 and 13. And massively better depth plus and improved James is more than enough trade off to see significant improvement over the team rocking peak Wade. And it's not like Wade was a terrible player in 12 and 13. He had numerous elite games and series those years. You couldn't expect the same from him night in, night out, but you didn't need it because there was always a role player ready to step up and fill the gap, not to mention a much improved James.

DMAVS41

12-31-2019, 09:02 PM

Why?

Post 11 James > 11 James.
Post 11 Bosh >/= 11 Bosh.
Post 11 Chalners > 11 Chalmers.
12, 13 Battier >>>>>>whoever.
12, 13 Haslem> 11 Haslem.
13 Anderson>>>>>>whoever.
12, 13 Anthony on the bench >>> 11 Anthony starting.
12, 13 Miller > 11 Miller.
13 Allen > 11 Bibby.

12, 13 Wade < 11 Wade.

Wade is the only thing about 2011 that was better than 12 and 13. And massively better depth plus and improved James is more than enough trade off to see significant improvement over the team rocking peak Wade. And it's not like Wade was a terrible player in 12 and 13. He had numerous elite games and series those years. You couldn't expect the same from him night in, night out, but you didn't need it because there was always a role player ready to step up and fill the gap, not to mention a much improved James.

I disagree about Bosh.

However, where we really disagree...and that is fine...is what the value of a peak all-time great like Wade actually is.

In my opinion, stars are what really move the needle and having a guy like Wade playing great with health...trumps having more depth.

Regardless, we all know this conversation would not be happening if Lebron didn't choke. If we pressed pause when they were up 15 in game 2 or whatever it was...and I started telling you that the Heat won't win because they don't have very good depth...or not enough to overcome in the incoming Lebron meltdown...

You and everyone in the world would have bet me everything you had.

So all of this is just trying to reconcile the results with that...and deep down we all know the answer. Lebron ****ing melted...and ruined what would have been one of the better teams ever. Not the best, but certainly on the short list with Lebron/Wade/Bosh all at or near their peaks with health.