Bulls faced higher-rated defenses in 91/92 Finals and 91/92/93/97/98 ECF

[3ball]

So the idea that MJ won because he had better defenses is patently false

This false idea arose when new fans heard there was a 6-ring dynasty in the modern era - when they looked up the Bulls' roster, they were surprised to see weak offensive help, and therefore concluded that defense must've been the main advantage

Nope.. MJ had weaker defensive help in basically every conference finals and also the 91' and 92' Finals .. while also having weak offensive help.. so MJ was the difference, not superior defensive or offensive help.. the GOAT
.

[Trollsmasher]

those defenses were only better because Jordan was weak defensively as evidenced by the Bulls defense getting better once he retired for the first time

[3ball]

those defenses were only better because Jordan was weak defensively as evidenced by the Bulls defense getting better once he retired for the first time
The Bulls ranked 7th, 4th, and 7th from 91-93', and 6th in 1994

So basically no improvement at all

the entire league improved in DRtg in 94', so the Bulls didn't improve relative to the league (hence their ranking remaining the same)

Since their defensive ranking remained the same, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense, which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.



those defenses were only better because Jordan was weak defensively as evidenced by the Bulls defense getting better once he retired for the first time
teams have a limited amount of energy to expend on both ends - shifts in performance/effort on one side normally take away from the other side.. But even though the Bulls offense fell off a cliff in 1994 and they focused more on defense, their defense didn't improve relative to the league because they were missing their best defender (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s).

Otoh, the presence of MJ gave the Bulls the highest ORtg's of all time.. But this GOAT improvement on offense didn't come at the expense of defense like it would for most teams.. His presence enabled a TWO-WAY team, which isn't surprising, since he's the goat two-way player according to Popovich (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875095&postcount=46).

So imagine Kawhi Leonard (as Popovich references), with the capability of scoring 15 more ppg.. That's Jordan... That's the GOAT.. we're seeing Kawhi dominate this year

[SouBeachTalents]

We get it bruh. Jordan won 6 championships by himself, without a teammate you could even consider average, against the toughest competition the league has ever seen. He's better at every facet of basketball than any other player in history

[3ball]

We get it bruh. Jordan won 6 championships by himself, without a teammate you could even consider average, against the toughest competition the league has ever seen. He's better at every facet of basketball than any other player in history
I'm simply pointing out that MJ won with nowhere near the best offensive or defensive help - he had less offensive help than his opponent in most series, and less defensive help in basically every ECF and a couple Finals

[And1AllDay]

why did the bulls def ratg get better when mike left :oldlol:

[AlternativeAcc.]

What's the argument for Jordan being GOAT?

Bill Russell has more rings as the man

LeBron has better stats, higher impact, and better longevity (all by a huge margin)


What's the argument for Jordan

[And1AllDay]

also you lied about your stats again :oldlol:


2011 bulls was 11th ranked def rtg all time :oldlol:

I figured you out tho..you are a bron fan and you post these cryptic messages against mike so we can see the light


bran beat 2 of the top best defensive teams ever...mj doesnt even have 1 win over a top 25 defnsive team

https://i.postimg.cc/wjjH3ZMB/moar-lies.png

[superduper]

those defenses were only better because Jordan was weak defensively as evidenced by the Bulls defense getting better once he retired for the first time

This is such an obtuse "analysis". Obviously they have to focus on improving the overall team defense after losing the greatest offensive player of all time and top 3 defender of his era. But that might be too deep beyond the surface for a Bran stan to comprehend.

[FKAri]

Defenders look competent when they're covering guys who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

[Real14]

Lebron's Heat and Lebron's Cavs faced better defenses.

[3ball]

Bill Russell has more rings as the man


His rings were in 2-pointer basketball, when the lack of spacing made good team offense impossible, thus allowing a 1-way defender like Russell to win the most..

But since the 3-point line was instituted, all 40 MVP's have been dominant offensive players, so we know that Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber today.

hope that helps





What's the argument for Jordan being GOAT?


twice as many rings as "the man" in modern era/3-pointer basketball (6 rings while 2nd place has 3)

while being #1 in PPG, efficiency rating, clutch, the best defender at his position, and the goat "tough shot" maker (goat midrange)





LeBron has better stats


Lebron only has longevity/career totals, while MJ did more per game, aka the leader in PPG, efficiency rating, and winning contribution (PPG, PER, ws/48)

and clutch

and plus-minus (he set the record in 96' before Curry broke it in 16')

Ultimately, only MJ is top 2 in the "big 4" advanced stats: PER, VORP, BPM, WS/48... while also leading PPG, plus-minus, and clutch.

there's no argument for Lebron statistically - he only has longevity/career totals





Lebron has higher impact


ball-dominator teams fall off without their ball-dominator - see Nash and CP3 teams in 12' and 13', or Lebron's teams

But MJ has far greater impact because his Bulls were 22-51 without him from 85-93' (before the 3-peat system was developed),

and his style gives teams a championship ceiling while Lebron's style doesn't... how can players like Lebron/Nash/CP3 increase a team's championship odds the most when their style doesn't give teams a championship ceiling?.. the ball-dominator approach has literally never won, except when Lebron team-hopped for extra talent, and it still mostly lost (losers or underdogs for 6 of 7 years from 11-17')

[3ball]

Lebron's Heat and Lebron's Cavs faced better defenses.
not true, but it's irrelevant - the point is that MJ didn't win 6 rings by having better defenses than everyone

he had less defensive help in every ECF and a couple Finals too

this is in addition to his weak offensive help.. the fact is that most of Lebron's teams had better defenses than MJ's first 3-peat bulls
.

[Real14]

not true, but it's irrelevant - the point is that MJ didn't win 6 rings by having better defenses than everyone

he had less defensive help in every ECF and a couple Finals too

this is in addition to his weak offensive help.. the fact is that most of Lebron's teams had better defenses than MJ's first 3-peat bulls
MJ had Horace, Longely and Rodman.

[3ball]

MJ had Horace, Longely and Rodman.
he had lower-rated defenses/less defensive help in every ECF and a couple Finals too

this is in addition to his weak offensive help..

Most of Lebron's teams had better defenses than MJ's first 3-peat bulls (only the 7th ranked defense)

heck, LeBron lost the 2009 ECF with the #3 defense and 18 on 38% from his sidekick - MJ never lost with this kind of help on both sides of the ball:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=476731

[And1AllDay]

MJ had Horace, Longely and Rodman.

horace grant greatest 3rd option ever btw

[Real14]

horace grant greatest 3rd option ever btw
Definitely was.

[3ball]

horace grant greatest 3rd option ever btw


Bosh... 11-time all-star and HOF, deluxe offensive option

Grant.... 1-time all-star, simple play-finisher

Love... 6-time all-star and HOF, deluxe offensive option






horace grant greatest 3rd option ever btw


Zydrunas has multiple seasons with over 2.3 blocks and Varejao was all-defense, while the anchor of small-ball was Bosh (shown below) (https://www.si.com/nba/point-forward/2013/12/18/court-vision-chris-bosh-miami-heat-defense) - all three compare to Grant defensively, while Zydrunas/Bosh destroy him offensively


https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/10/16/4831376/chris-bosh-video-breakdown-blitz-miami-heat

http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/7964/chris-bosh-no-longer-just-a-one-way-player

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/chris-bosh-doesnt-block-shots-but-who-cares/

https://www.si.com/nba/point-forward/2013/12/18/court-vision-chris-bosh-miami-heat-defense

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/breakdown-chris-bosh-gives-dominating-defensive-performance/

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nba/miami-heat/article1963331.html

[3ball]

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Thread Cliffs:


We already know that MJ won with less offensive help, and now we know his defensive help was mostly less than his conference finals and Finals opponents as well

MJ had less help on both sides of the ball, but he himself was the difference