Put DeMar DeRozan with the 1993-94 Chicago Bulls?

[Shooter]

Yes, easily.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


The 92' and 93' Bulls had Jordan on the team but still barely beat the Knicks, so they would lose with Derozan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qvEmm-sZbU&t=24m10s


People forget that Kukoc's miracle shot saved the 94' Bulls from getting swept.

[TheGoatest]

The 1993-94 Bulls win a championship without DeRozan if they didn't get screwed:

https://thumbor.bigedition.com/scottie-pippen-and-hubert-davis/WsFjAkibgG_0Oop09YBnQ3mcHZE=/800x0/filters:quality(80)/granite-web-prod/7d/58/7d58a02616ae4afbb982595fefe30021.jpg

Or at least they make it to the finals, where they might've lost to Hakeem like they lost all 6 of their regular season meetings in their first 3-peat with Foolish jordon on the roster.

[3ba11]

The 1993-94 Bulls win a championship without DeRozan if they didn't get screwed:

https://thumbor.bigedition.com/scottie-pippen-and-hubert-davis/WsFjAkibgG_0Oop09YBnQ3mcHZE=/800x0/filters:quality(80)/granite-web-prod/7d/58/7d58a02616ae4afbb982595fefe30021.jpg

Or at least they make it to the finals, where they might've lost to Hakeem like they lost all 6 of their regular season meetings in their first 3-peat with Foolish jordon on the roster.



Pippen fouled Hubert on the follow-thru seen here:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif


And specified by HOF annoucer Hubie Brown

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3FbvWSZQkY&t=01m28s

[TheGoatest]

Pippen fouled Hubert on the follow-thru seen here:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif


And specified by HOF annoucer Hubie Brown

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3FbvWSZQkY&t=01m28s

The Great Scott Pippen clearly not fouling Hubert Davis seen here:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdOzWd6XEAAkFpW.jpg

Hubert Davis himself specified that it was a payback call for the non-call on Charles Smith the previous playoffs with this statement:


"We felt like Charles Smith got fouled a year before. Maybe things evened out."

https://www.yardbarker.com/media/e/8/e8dd0f2da3cddaf730f9b99b1601d37e87c615ef/600_wide/charles-smith.png

Such were the perks that came with having David Stern's darling Foolish jordon on your roster.

Fun fact, that crap call against the 93-94 Bulls was named the 7th worst sports call ever by ESPN.com in 2001:

https://www.espn.com/page2/s/list/readers/worstcalls.html

There is only one basketball call ranked higher (1972 Olympics ranked at #4), so that call 94 call on The Great Scott Pippen was basically seen as the worst call in NBA history in 2001.

[CountDracula]

https://i.ibb.co/Wppj81v/5-B8-FD8-F5-2-DFF-4-BAE-8-E1-F-4-D8879546-CCA.jpg (https://ibb.co/cXXVfdh)

https://i.ibb.co/w49kyhr/5-DD5-CE6-F-127-E-4540-A071-8-B6-BEAA6-B1-E9.gif (https://imgbb.com/)

[Neal Romer]

They will win a Champions Chip and a IST. Demar have too much self respect to get punched in the face by Chris Childs.

[3ba11]

.
1993 Finals

Bulls...... 106.7 PPG.... 113.0 ORTG
Suns...... 106.7 PPG.... 113.0 ORTG


^^^ could DeRozan average the 41/9/6 necessary to squeak out a win vs the juggernaut Suns???

Remember that Pippen shot 0% on threes and 59% FT for 46.9 true shooting overall, so he couldn't handle additional load

So it's more complicated than just adding any scorer to the Bulls because the GOAT scorer is required

[SouBeachTalents]

They won 55 games without Jordan, you add an All-NBA player to that team? They definitely win the championship.

[Lebron23]

They won 55 games without Jordan, you add an All-NBA player to that team? They definitely win the championship.

Bingo

[3ba11]

They won 55 games without Jordan, you add an All-NBA player to that team? They definitely win the championship.


^^^ Says the shallow-thinking fan who never predicts anything right

Those Bulls had the quintessential one-off against sleeping opponents in 1994, while the "real" Bulls were historically-embarrassed in the 2nd Round and borderline .500 the following season before MJ returned

Pippen was never a "franchise player" that was asked to build a lottery team from scratch, and instead he was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94'.. It wasn't remotely surprising that once opponents woke up in the playoffs, Pippen was exposed and the "real" Bulls without MJ were borderline .500 before he returned in 95'... It's intuitive that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 95'.

[And1AllDay]

They won 55 games without Jordan, you add an All-NBA player to that team? They definitely win the championship.

bingo

[Axe]

They won 55 games without Jordan, you add an All-NBA player to that team? They definitely win the championship.
True.

[3ba11]

.

Austin Reaves carried the Lakers over the Celtics last season when AD and Lebron were out:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-04-2024/oT9i_-.gif


^^^ That's what Pippen faced all year, so it wasn't a real 55 wins - the "real" Bulls were exposed in the playoffs and borderline .500 in 1995 before MJ returned.

Imagine if you're an opposing player and you think that you're facing the GOAT, so you circle your calendar and buy a bunch of tickets for family and friends... But then MJ suddenly retires, so now you're fielding uncomfortable calls from family members saying they can't make it... So the biggest game of your life just became a game that no one cares about and you now don't care about at all - that's what the 94' Bulls faced in the regular season (sleeping opponents), but they were appropriately exposed when opponents woke up in the playoffs and following season

[Axe]

Scottie pippen was the most winning player in the 90s, not michael jordan.

[3ba11]

Scottie pippen was the most winning player in the 90s, not michael jordan.


It's a statistical fact that Pippen is the most carried teammate in NBA history, by far

There's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st and 2nd option than MJ and Pippen.... Pippen is similar to other winning sidekicks like Klay, Pau, Parker or Ginobili that only made All-NBA after winning some titles

And there's never been an all-time great that was actually just a dunker and transition player (low producer)

[SouBeachTalents]

It's a statistical fact the Bulls won 55 games without Jordan.

[3ba11]

It's a statistical fact the Bulls won 55 games without Jordan.


Anyone can do that against sleeping opponents, so it wasn't a real 55 wins.

Young fans don't realize how much of a one-off it was - it was never a big story in 1994 because everyone knew the bubble would burst in short order and it did... 30 years later, new fans look back and mistakenly think the Bulls had a stacked cast when they literally had the worst scoring help and cast in the league and got by via 3-peat chemistry vs sleeping opponents.

[Axe]

It's a statistical fact that Pippen is the most carried teammate in NBA history, by far

There's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st and 2nd option than MJ and Pippen.... Pippen is similar to other winning sidekicks like Klay, Pau, Parker or Ginobili that only made All-NBA after winning some titles

And there's never been an all-time great that was actually just a dunker and transition player (low producer)
1-9 says 'hold my beer'.

[3ba11]

1-9 says 'hold my beer'.


The Bulls won in 1988 because MJ entered his prime, so it could've been any 7 ppg bum, and it just happened to by Pippen - he was the lucky low-producer that landed alongside goat and was carried to 6 titles - the stats show that clearly - Pippen stunk and was carried.

If AD averaged Pippen's numbers, no amount of defense would stop people from removing him from HOF consideration and downgrading him to a regular player and not an all-timer... So you guys are just lying about Pippen - he's the most overrated player ever because he was carried to 6 titles... Do you realize that if Pippen, Klay, Pau, Parker and Ginobili never won titles, they would be considered regular players and not All-NBA??... There's tons of 15-20 ppg guys that never sniff All-NBA, and that's what all these guys would've been without Curry, Duncan and MJ carrying them to titles.

[3ba11]

Anyone can do that against sleeping opponents, so it wasn't a real 55 wins.

Young fans don't realize how much of a one-off it was - it was never a big story in 1994 because everyone knew the bubble would burst in short order and it did... 30 years later, new fans look back and mistakenly think the Bulls had a stacked cast when they literally had the worst scoring help and cast in the league and got by via 3-peat chemistry vs sleeping opponents.

:pimp:

[3ba11]

AD destroyed GOAT Jokic and led every series, while Pippen got destroyed by ordinary forwards like X-Man, Schrempf, Larry Johnson, Juwan Howard, Larry Nance, and many more forwards, while NEVER leading any series - he was always a secondary producer and mostly a dunker/transition player with the lowest clutch and 4th quarter stats of all-time.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


The 94' Bulls weren't a real 55-win team by virtue of facing sleeping opponents, who woke up and exposed the "real" Bulls as 2nd Round losers and borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned.

Obviously, adding an All-NBA player to a borderline .500 team probably wouldn't even produce a conference finals or Finals, let alone a title or 3-peat.

[sdot_thadon]

Maybe chip. I'm not completely convinced Derozan would offset Dreams massive advantage over any Bulls big though. I couldn't see them not making the finals if you add demar instead of a d-league guy.

[3ba11]

Maybe chip. I'm not completely convinced Derozan would offset Dreams massive advantage over any Bulls big though. I couldn't see them not making the finals if you add demar instead of a d-league guy.


The 94' Bulls weren't a real 55-win team, so the entire thread is moot.

The "real" Bulls were a 2nd Round loser and borderline .500 in 1995, so a .500 team won't even make the conference finals or Finals with Derozan, let alone win a title or 3-peat.

In the 93' Finals, the Bulls and Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg, so every ounce of Jordan's 41 ppg was needed, which means he's the only guy in history that could 3-peat with that team.. Btw, Pippen shot 0% on threes and 59% from the line, so his true shooting was only 46.9% and therefore he couldn't handle additional load.

[sdot_thadon]

The 94' Bulls weren't a real 55-win team, so the entire thread is moot.

The "real" Bulls were a 2nd Round loser and borderline .500 in 1995, so a .500 team won't even make the conference finals or Finals with Derozan, let alone win a title or 3-peat.

In the 93' Finals, the Bulls and Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg, so every ounce of Jordan's 41 ppg was needed, which means he's the only guy in history that could 3-peat with that team.. Btw, Pippen shot 0% on threes and 59% from the line, so his true shooting was only 46.9% and therefore he couldn't handle additional load.

You're an idiot, historical record shows that the 94 Bulls were, in fact, a 55 win team. There's no such thing as a real or fake one. Results are set in stone. The Bulls were a 55 win team without Mj the 95 version wasn't even the same team without Grant, who apparently was a much more vital part of the teams makeup than anyone knew at the time. Ps, stop being stupid for attention.

[Axe]

You're an idiot, historical record shows that the 94 Bulls were, in fact, a 55 win team. There's no such thing as a real or fake one. Results are set in stone. The Bulls were a 55 win team without Mj the 95 version wasn't even the same team without Grant, who apparently was a much more vital part of the teams makeup than anyone knew at the time. Ps, stop being stupid for attention.
:applause:

[Lebron23]

Typical 3ball melting down.

[And1AllDay]

mikey had pip

if pip had another pip hed win too

mikeys impact is pippen

[And1AllDay]

scottie pippen was the most winning player in the 90s, not michael jordan.

[3ba11]

Grant, who apparently was a much more vital part of the teams makeup than anyone knew at the time.





Pure nonsense.. Lebron needed franchise players at power forward, while it was a just role player spot for Jordan because he won titles with 3 different role players starting at PF.

Kukoc was the starter for the 98' Playoffs, and then fossil Rodman averaged 3/8 for the 97' Playoffs and forced MJ to co-lead the rebounding with 8 RPG for that title run.

Horace had a twin brother named Harvey that was a similar caliber but wasn't inflated by the winning spotlight like Horace was.... Rebounding was Horace's best quality, yet he wasn't elite at it - guys like Tristan Thompson, Boozer, Drew Gooden, or Udonis Haslem were better rebounders, let alone Bosh, Love, Jamison or AD.

So again, the 94' Bulls weren't a real 55-win team, which makes the thread moot - everyone knew the bubble would burst and it did... The "real" Bulls were a 2nd Round loser and borderline .500 in 95', so a .500 team won't even make the conference finals or Finals with Derozan, let alone win a title or 3-peat... It's easy to forget that the Bulls and Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORTG in the 93' Finals, so all of MJ's 41 was needed... Similarly, the 92' ECF and Finals were razor-thin, including a 7-game series against NY with Pippen choking vs X-Man.

[97 bulls]

Pure nonsense.. Lebron needed franchise players at power forward, while it was a just role player spot for Jordan because he won titles with 3 different role players starting at PF.

Kukoc was the starter for the 98' Playoffs, and then fossil Rodman averaged 3/8 for the 97' Playoffs and forced MJ to co-lead the rebounding with 8 RPG for that title run.

Horace had a twin brother named Harvey that was a similar caliber but wasn't inflated by the winning spotlight like Horace was.... Rebounding was Horace's best quality, yet he wasn't elite at it - guys like Tristan Thompson, Boozer, Drew Gooden, or Udonis Haslem were better rebounders, let alone Bosh, Love, Jamison or AD.

So again, the 94' Bulls weren't a real 55-win team, which makes the thread moot - everyone knew the bubble would burst and it did... The "real" Bulls were a 2nd Round loser and borderline .500 in 95', so a .500 team won't even make the conference finals or Finals with Derozan, let alone win a title or 3-peat... It's easy to forget that the Bulls and Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORTG in the 93' Finals, so all of MJ's 41 was needed... Similarly, the 92' ECF and Finals were razor-thin, including a 7-game series against NY with Pippen choking vs X-Man.
Rodman saved the Bulls bacon in 96. There wouldn't have been a 93 Finals for MJ to average over 40ppg had Pippen not done what he did in 93 vs the Knicks in the ECF.

That's 2 Championships that MJ wouldn't have had if his "role player" teammates had not come through for him.

Harvey Grant wasn't the same type of player as Horace. The Bulls missed Horace's interior defense and rebounding. That's why they went out and got Rodman in 95.


And for the record. This is why the 1-9 argument is so relevant. Guys like 3ball who think that Jordan could've won with any decent players. Why didn't he win before Pippen and Grant?

[Lebron23]

Rodman saved the Bulls bacon in 96. There wouldn't have been a 93 Finals for MJ to average over 40ppg had Pippen not done what he did in 93 vs the Knicks in the ECF.

That's 2 Championships that MJ wouldn't have had if his "role player" teammates had not come through for him.

Harvey Grant wasn't the same type of player as Horace. The Bulls missed Horace's interior defense and rebounding. That's why they went out and got Rodman in 95.


And for the record. This is why the 1-9 argument is so relevant. Guys like 3ball who think that Jordan could've won with any decent players. Why didn't he win before Pippen and Grant?

Great posts

[sdot_thadon]

Pure nonsense.. Lebron needed franchise players at power forward, while it was a just role player spot for Jordan because he won titles with 3 different role players starting at PF.

Kukoc was the starter for the 98' Playoffs, and then fossil Rodman averaged 3/8 for the 97' Playoffs and forced MJ to co-lead the rebounding with 8 RPG for that title run.

Horace had a twin brother named Harvey that was a similar caliber but wasn't inflated by the winning spotlight like Horace was.... Rebounding was Horace's best quality, yet he wasn't elite at it - guys like Tristan Thompson, Boozer, Drew Gooden, or Udonis Haslem were better rebounders, let alone Bosh, Love, Jamison or AD.

So again, the 94' Bulls weren't a real 55-win team, which makes the thread moot - everyone knew the bubble would burst and it did... The "real" Bulls were a 2nd Round loser and borderline .500 in 95', so a .500 team won't even make the conference finals or Finals with Derozan, let alone win a title or 3-peat... It's easy to forget that the Bulls and Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORTG in the 93' Finals, so all of MJ's 41 was needed... Similarly, the 92' ECF and Finals were razor-thin, including a 7-game series against NY with Pippen choking vs X-Man.

And none of that refutes what you quoted. Horace with no Mj , that team won 55 games and Grant was an allstar while Pippen was a franchise guy. Crazy what having a little room to breathe and maybe shoot a bit more does for your career lol. Horace leaves and Mj comes back? They get spanked by Horaces team and lead to the Bulls making a desperate move for a volatile power forward who was considered the enemy. All this because Horace was the difference in 95. Luckily for all of us Grant only played one game in the 96 rematch. Who knows how things would have went.

[3ba11]

Rodman saved the Bulls bacon in 96.





The Bulls swept every series and were up 3-0 on the Sonics, so Rodman didn't save anything - the Bulls would've won with half the league in Rodman's spot, especially since Jordan won titles with role players like Kukoc and Horace starting at PF.

Furthermore, Rodman averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs, so the Bulls won IN SPITE of his anemic play.

And the Bulls won the 96' ring despite going 4 on 5 with Rodman, while Jordan's commanding of double-teams took Rodman's man away and gave Rodman the offensive rebound - Jeff Van Gundy explains how teams cannot get defensive rebounds while their bigs are double-teaming Jordan (video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Xz4K42gXM&t=03m12s))...

Again, it could've been any decent role player in Rodman's spot, like Horace or Kukoc - all these guys are role players, while Bosh, Love and AD are franchise players.. Even Jamison was a 2x all-star and MVP candidate.







There wouldn't have been a 93 Finals for MJ to average over 40ppg had Pippen not done what he did in 93 vs the Knicks in the ECF.






1993 ECF

Jordan....... 32.2... 6.2... 7.0... 2.3 tov.. 24.4 gmsc
Pippen....... 22.5... 6.7... 4.0... 4.0 tov.. 15.7 gmsc


^^^ Pippen was carried in the 93' ECF just like every series.

And Game 3 was a blowout where Pippen did nothing when the game was contested in the 1st quarter - that's when Jordan took over and put the game away (8 points and 6 assists compared to 6 and 0 for Pippen), and then Pippen produced in garbage time for the 2nd through 4th quarters - it was a laugher - this is the historical record... Jordan saved the day as always when the game was being contested.







That's 2 Championships that MJ wouldn't have had if his "role player" teammates had not come through for him.





^^^ you just said it yourself - they were ROLE PLAYERS, so any role player will do - every team has role players

they were replaceable low producers, which required goat stats and carry-jobs from Jordan win titles







Guys like 3ball who think that Jordan could've won with any decent players. Why didn't he win before Pippen and Grant?





Pippen and Grant were low-producing bums and no one else could've won with them as 2nd and 3rd option because they were 3rd through 7th option on other teams, as the historical record shows.

So you're just punishing MJ for WHOEVER he won with - WHOEVER he won with was going to be inflated by you guys, even low-producing bums like Pippen and Grant... You're punishing MJ for winning with the first all-star he got and never needing another one like everyone else needed...

According to you, it would be better if MJ only won once with Pippen and otherwise lost every other year, and then win once with Kemp, and then win once with Hakeem - but producing perennial losers the entire time!!!!... And never producing a great team!!!... According to you, this is better than MJ being unbeatable with the first modicum of help that he received.

[97 bulls]

The Bulls swept every series and were up 3-0 on the Sonics, so Rodman didn't save anything - the Bulls would've won with half the league in Rodman's spot, especially since Jordan won titles with role players like Kukoc and Horace starting at PF.
What the Bulls did before the Finals has nothing to do with what im talking. Im talking about what Rodman did IN THE FINALS!!!. Stop deflecting.


Furthermore, Rodman averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs, so the Bulls won IN SPITE of his anemic play.
On multiple occasions, I've sent you actual video of Rodman shutting down Malone in 98. You want to stay ignorant.


And the Bulls won the 96' ring despite going 4 on 5 with Rodman, while Jordan's commanding of double-teams took Rodman's man away and gave Rodman the offensive rebound - Jeff Van Gundy explains how teams cannot get defensive rebounds while their bigs are double-teaming Jordan (video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Xz4K42gXM&t=03m12s))...
Rodman set the record for most offensive rebounds in a Finals game TWICE. Lol. Offensive rebounding is a part of offense.


Again, it could've been any decent role player in Rodman's spot, like Horace or Kukoc - all these guys are role players, while Bosh, Love and AD are franchise players.. Even Jamison was a 2x all-star and MVP candidate.

But yet for all the times you talk about how often Jordan is double and triple teamed, nobody was able to do what Rodman did. Rodman being the rebounding leader for multiple straight years. A 2 time DPOY winner, and 5 Championships, and multiple All Defense selections. He's much more decorated than Jamison and Love.







1993 ECF

Jordan....... 32.2... 6.2... 7.0... 2.3 tov.. 24.4 gmsc
Pippen....... 22.5... 6.7... 4.0... 4.0 tov.. 15.7 gmsc


^^^ Pippen was carried in the 93' ECF just like every series.

And Game 3 was a blowout where Pippen did nothing when the game was contested in the 1st quarter - that's when Jordan took over and put the game away (8 points and 6 assists compared to 6 and 0 for Pippen), and then Pippen produced in garbage time for the 2nd through 4th quarters - it was a laugher - this is the historical record... Jordan saved the day as always when the game was being contested.
If Pippen was carried, it sure wasn't by Jordan. Lol. The fact that you only bring up game 3 of a 6 games series tells me all I need to know.







^^^ you just said it yourself - they were ROLE PLAYERS, so any role player will do - every team has role players

they were replaceable low producers, which required goat stats and carry-jobs from Jordan win titles

I put it in quotes. You called them role players.







Pippen and Grant were low-producing bumsand no one else could've won with them as 2nd and 3rd option because they were 3rd through 7th option on other teams, as the historical record shows.

So you're just punishing MJ for WHOEVER he won with - WHOEVER he won with was going to be inflated by you guys, even low-producing bums like Pippen and Grant... You're punishing MJ for winning with the first all-star he got and never needing another one like everyone else needed...

According to you, it would be better if MJ only won once with Pippen and otherwise lost every other year, and then win once with Kemp, and then win once with Hakeem - but producing perennial losers the entire time!!!!... And never producing a great team!!!... According to you, this is better than MJ being unbeatable with the first modicum of help that he received.
The bold is why MJ gets hit with the 1-9 argument. If Pippen and Grant were bums. Then Jordan should faired better than he did before they arrived. Or is it that he was beating overrated or at best mediocre teams (something i disagree with), which means that his legacy has to be tarnished. Make up your mind.

[97 bulls]

Game 1 1998 NBA Finals Rodman vs Malone
https://youtu.be/eC0B-9Ma-8M?si=Aw49y0ErRQO7Wpwi

Game 2
https://youtu.be/xc17rxedajY?si=iDdOTX16g9Fa5tKa

Game 3
https://youtu.be/LksCGBWXWds?si=78GycwGfWrMtkZRE

Game 4
https://youtu.be/EglLZwE_frI?si=SyndpZSIr8qNKp0u

This is what Rodman did to Malone in 4 of the 6 games. Basketball is more than just scoring and stats. I shutter to think what Malone would've did to another player. Hell he was killing Longley who wasn't a bad defender.

3ball wants to stay ignorant.

[3ba11]

Game 1 1998 NBA Finals Rodman vs Malone
https://youtu.be/eC0B-9Ma-8M?si=Aw49y0ErRQO7Wpwi

Game 2
https://youtu.be/xc17rxedajY?si=iDdOTX16g9Fa5tKa

Game 3
https://youtu.be/LksCGBWXWds?si=78GycwGfWrMtkZRE

Game 4
https://youtu.be/EglLZwE_frI?si=SyndpZSIr8qNKp0u

This is what Rodman did to Malone in 4 of the 6 games. Basketball is more than just scoring and stats. I shutter to think what Malone would've did to another player. Hell he was killing Longley who wasn't a bad defender.

3ball wants to stay ignorant.


Kukoc was the starter in the 98' Playoffs and Rodman came off the bench because Rodman was horrific in the previous playoffs in 97' (3/8).

So Jordan won with 3 different role players at PF, while Lebron needed franchise guys like Bosh, Love, or AD, and stars like Jamison.

[97 bulls]

Kukoc was the starter in the 98' Playoffs and Rodman came off the bench because Rodman was horrific in the previous playoffs in 97' (3/8).

So Jordan won with 3 different role players at PF, while Lebron needed franchise guys like Bosh, Love, or AD, and stars like Jamison.

You stated this already. My rebuttal was actual video showing the job Rodman did on the MVP and Runner-up up MVP in Karl Malone. You continue to say the same stuff only confirms how weak your argument is.

Not to mention that both of those "role players" (what you called them, not me) are in the Hall of Fame.

[3ba11]

If Pippen and Grant were bums. Then Jordan should faired better than he did before they arrived.





Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Curry, KD and Lebron were lottery for their first few seasons, so young MJ lost just like all young players lose until they begin to enter their prime.. It's easy to forget that the gifted Woolridge only got one year with rookie Jordan and didn't get a long tenure to develop with prime Jordan like Pippen did..

Jordan was also injured in Year 2, and after management saw how well MJ returned from injury in the 86' Playoffs, they cleaned house heading into the 87' season by getting rid of the 1st and 2nd options (Woolridge and Gervin).... So the 87' cast was the league's worst and worse than the 85' or 86' casts, but 87' Jordan won more games because he was entering his prime.

Pippen is just the low-producing bum that was lucky to land alongside the GOAT entering his prime and MJ would've obviously won much sooner and easier if the Bulls' could've replaced 88-90' Pippen with many different guys... For example, Pippen averaged 12 on 41% against the Pistons from 88-90', yet MJ still nearly won in 89' or 90', so he would've easily won with James Worthy, who dominated the Pistons during that stretch at all-time levels.

Heck, X-Man led the Sonics to the 87' WCF and dominated the Lakers, while the old version of X-Man dominated Pippen in the 92' Playoffs, so X-Man was the kind of 2-way wing that Jordan would've easily won with... Sean Elliot provided phenomenal spacing and clutch assassin that Pippen didn't have..

Tons of guys - Detleft Schrempf was a 6'10" ball-handler and 40% three-point shooter that destroyed Pippen in the 96' Finals - he was much better than Pippen, aka bigger, faster, stronger, and far better shooter... But he didn't get a tenure with prime MJ like Pippen did... Finally, we know that Horry was the 2nd best player on a champion as a 2nd-year player, while also playing better than Pippen ever did in the 95' Finals (3rd season), so he would've helped MJ more than 3rd year Pippen just like X-Man, Worthy and many others... (Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals).
.

[3ba11]

You stated this already. My rebuttal was actual video showing the job Rodman did on the MVP and Runner-up up MVP in Karl Malone.





Rodman got housed by Malone in both Finals, and he was so bad in 97' that he was benched in 98'.. He was reduced to spot-duty on Karl because he was a liability literally all over the court...

And rodman provided zero help to the league MVP in 1995 as they were housed in the playoffs, and no one wanted the pink-haired, wedding-dress-wearing malcontent - only MJ saved him and told the Bulls that he could handle him, and only MJ could win with the pink-haired version and old version of Rodman, who was big trash... But I'll admit, Rodman was so bad that even MJ needed him to come off the bench by 1998.

[3ba11]

.
97' Bulls defeated on the PF (role player) issue, so Thread Cliffs reiterated:


The 94' Bulls weren't a real 55-win team, so the thread is moot - no one paid much attention in 94' because everyone knew the bubble would burst, and it did.

The "real" Bulls were a 2nd Round loser and borderline .500 in 95', so a .500 team won't even make the conference finals or Finals with Derozan, let alone win a title or 3-peat.

In the 93' Finals, the Bulls and Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg, so every ounce of Jordan's 41 ppg was needed... Pippen shot 0% on threes and 59% from the line, so his true shooting was only 46.9% and couldn't handle additional load.. The 92' chip was also razor-thin and went 7 games vs Knicks where Pippen was destroyed by X-Man.

[SouBeachTalents]

First of all, it's hosed by, not housed by :lol He didn't build Malone a shelter like you did for LeBron in your head. And in that series you reference Malone put up a whopping 23.8 ppg on 45%TS. In contrast, Pippen averaged 20 ppg on 54%TS. So not only did Malone shoot abysmally in that series you pretend he went off in, it's another example of Pippen almost outproducing the other teams best player.

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif


https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg




^^^ Jordan won 2 titles with the most bricklaying and least spacing help ever from a sidekick, while Lebron needs goat-spacing help for his simpleton stiff-arm skillset... :facepalm:








And in that series you reference Malone put up a whopping 23.8 ppg on 45%TS. In contrast, Pippen averaged 20 ppg on 54%TS. So not only did Malone shoot abysmally in that series you pretend he went off, it's another example of Pippen almost outproducing the other teams best player.





In the 97' Finals, Pippen had 4 points in 20 minutes of clutch-time, compared to 11 for Malone, 13 for Stockton, 5 for Byron Russell, and 23 for Jordan.. Even Ostertag averaged more ppg in clutch-time.

20 points from Pippen was mostly transition and then worst-ever efficiency in the halfcourt - literally - Pippen had the worst shooting splits that anyone ever had on a playoff run during the 96' and 98' Playoffs - so he was worst-ever TWICE and they were TITLE runs.

[97 bulls]

first of all, it's hosed by, not housed by :lol he didn't build malone a shelter like you did for lebron in your head. And in that series you reference malone put up a whopping 23.8 ppg on 45%ts. In contrast, pippen averaged 20 ppg on 54%ts. So not only did malone shoot abysmally in that series you pretend he went off in, it's another example of pippen almost outproducing the other teams best player.

facts!!!!

[3ba11]

facts!!!!


Malone was a team-carrier that attracted all the defensive attention to make the offense and team work, so he isn't comparable to secondary players like Horry or Pippen - Pippen was just a dunker, tertiary producer and system player

[Axe]

Most of 3ball's idiotic replies for today were edited. :biggums:

Such a lousy ass buffoon lol.

[3ba11]

Most of 3ball's idiotic replies for today were edited. :biggums:

Such a lousy ass buffoon lol.


Have you ever tried to teach a kid a subject that they know nothing about OVER THE INTERNET???

it takes a lot of edits to correct stupidity and sheer dumbness about a subject.. it really does..

i feel like if it isn't said just perfectly, you dumbasses won't understand the point being made and you won't learn

[97 bulls]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif


https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg




^^^ Jordan won 2 titles with the most bricklaying and least spacing help ever from a sidekick, while Lebron needs goat-spacing help for his simpleton stiff-arm skillset... :facepalm:








In the 97' Finals, Pippen had 4 points in 20 minutes of clutch-time, compared to 11 for Malone, 13 for Stockton, 5 for Byron Russell, and 23 for Jordan.. Even Ostertag averaged more ppg in clutch-time.

20 points from Pippen was mostly transition and then worst-ever efficiency in the halfcourt - literally - Pippen had the worst shooting splits that anyone ever had on a playoff run during the 96' and 98' Playoffs - so he was worst-ever TWICE and they were TITLE runs.

In that very same sentence, Shaq also called Pippen a great player. ��

As far as his scouting report, maybe his magic team should've had him in the scouting report. They got swept in 96.

[3ba11]

In that very same sentence, Shaq also called Pippen a great player. ��

As far as his scouting report, maybe his magic team should've had him in the scouting report. They got swept in 96.


Maybe you never played, but Pippen wasn't on the scouting report because he wasn't a threat to go off - he has 6 games of 30 points in his playoff career, so teams weren't worried about his 15-20 points on bad efficiency..

More specifically, Pippen didn't require closing out on his jumpshot because it was broke, and he also didn't require double-teams because he was a bad 1-on-1 player... So again, there were concrete reasons why Pippen wasn't on the scouting report, but mainly it was because he was just a dunker with low peak capability, and nothing outside the system.. Literally nothing - worse than Jeff Green outside the system...

Defenders only needed to get back on defense against Pippen to protect against his transition, but "getting back" is something the coach writes on the chalkboard for EVERYONE.

[3ba11]

The coach writes "get back on D" on the chalkboard for EVERYONE.... this indirect way is the only way pip makes it on the scouting report (get back on defense)... :oldlol:.. his actual name never appears.

[97 bulls]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif


https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg




^^^ Jordan won 2 titles with the most bricklaying and least spacing help ever from a sidekick, while Lebron needs goat-spacing help for his simpleton stiff-arm skillset... :facepalm:








In the 97' Finals, Pippen had 4 points in 20 minutes of clutch-time, compared to 11 for Malone, 13 for Stockton, 5 for Byron Russell, and 23 for Jordan.. Even Ostertag averaged more ppg in clutch-time.

20 points from Pippen was mostly transition and then worst-ever efficiency in the halfcourt - literally - Pippen had the worst shooting splits that anyone ever had on a playoff run during the 96' and 98' Playoffs - so he was worst-ever TWICE and they were TITLE runs.

But Jordan didn't win without Pippen. And he had multiple years to do so.

[sdot_thadon]

What id like to know is since Mj could win with any "low producing bum" at PF why he didn't win with Kukoc there in 95, or with Oakley there or whomever else? He only won with Rodman and Grant. 2 all defensive team level power forwards suspiciously.....

[Axe]

What id like to know is since Mj could win with any "low producing bum" at PF why he didn't win with Kukoc there in 95, or with Oakley there or whomever else? He only won with Rodman and Grant. 2 all defensive team level power forwards suspiciously.....
Ether.

[3ba11]

But Jordan didn't win without Pippen. And he had multiple years to do so.


Everyone loses for their first few years, or at 40

So you have no case

[3ba11]

What id like to know is since Mj could win with any "low producing bum" at PF why he didn't win with Kukoc there in 95, or with Oakley there or whomever else? He only won with Rodman and Grant. 2 all defensive team level power forwards suspiciously.....


Jordan didn't win in 95' because he was coming back from baseball and his advanced stats were like his Wizards years.

And Jordan won with Oakley - he won 50 games with a rebounder like Oakley at 2nd option - that's literally goat because Lebron needed all-stars at sidekick to win 50 games, or acquisitions that were playing better than 1990 Pippen.. Lebron always had decorated teammates like Zydrunas, Hughes, Mo or Jamison, so he never won 50 with a complete bum cast like MJ had.

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan didn't win in 95' because he was coming back from baseball and his advanced stats were like his Wizards years.

And Jordan won with Oakley - he won 50 games with a rebounder like Oakley at 2nd option - that's literally goat because Lebron needed all-stars at sidekick to win 50 games, or acquisitions that were playing better than 1990 Pippen.. Lebron always had decorated teammates like Zydrunas, Hughes, Mo or Jamison, so he never won 50 with a complete bum cast like MJ had.

I'd love to see the retarded look you wear on your face as you type those names with such reverence. Again apparently Mj couldn't win with "any low producing bum" at PF nor could he even make the playoffs in the weakest east ever next to good players in his later years. Stackhouse was a 2 time allstar by the time he fought over shots with MJ. And Mj had Hughes as well, threatening him to pass Mike the ball and benching him when he passed to others guys lol.

[3ba11]

I'd love to see the retarded look you wear on your face as you type those names with such reverence. Again apparently Mj couldn't win with "any low producing bum" at PF nor could he even make the playoffs in the weakest east ever next to good players in his later years. Stackhouse was a 2 time allstar by the time he fought over shots with MJ. And Mj had Hughes as well, threatening him to pass Mike the ball and benching him when he passed to others guys lol.


Again, your only argument is to knock MJ for losing when everyone loses, such as the rookie years or the fossil years at 40-year old

So you have no case

The instant MJ got 1 all-star, he was unbeatable, while Lebron mostly lost with multiple all-stars... When Lebron got "help", he mostly lost, while MJ mostly won despite having 1 less star teammate.. So it's clear as day - you fell for a fraud whose skillset cannot produce great chemistry or teams.

[sdot_thadon]

Again, your only argument is to knock MJ for losing when everyone loses, such as the rookie years or the fossil years at 40-year old

So you have no case

The instant MJ got 1 all-star, he was unbeatable, while Lebron mostly lost with multiple all-stars... When Lebron got "help", he mostly lost, while MJ mostly won despite having 1 less star teammate.. So it's clear as day - you fell for a fraud whose skillset cannot produce great chemistry or teams.

Not at all, when Mj didn't have a stud PF he couldn't win shit. Never did. Mj never won without a all nba / all defensive level co star. Or in the 2nd 3peat basically a 2nd franchise player. He never did. No other player in MJ's era enjoyed the same amount of help Jordan had. Show me the other teams in the 90s with a top shelf elite sidekick that makes the all nba and all defense team in the same season once let alone consistently. Or 1st team for both! You cant.

[3ba11]

Not at all, when Mj didn't have a stud PF he couldn't win shit





Barkley, Malone and Duncan are "stud" PF's, while Kukoc, Horace and 36-year Rodman were role players..

So Jordan won with role players at PF, while Lebron needed franchise players like Love, Bosh, or AD.







stud PF





* 36-year Rodman compares to 2010 Shaq and actually much worse (3/8 for the 97' Playoffs and he wasn't the starter in 98' Playoffs)

* Horace was an 11/8 player and destroyed by opposing frontcourts in every series - a literal punching bag... Oakley was better... Otis Thorpe was easily better.. Horry destroyed him in the 95' Finals.







Show me the other teams in the 90s with a top shelf elite sidekick that makes the all nba and all defense team in the same season once let alone consistently.





There were numerous 2nd options in the 90's that were All-NBA and All-Defense, but I'll get to that later because Jokic, Barkley, Curry, and many others are far better than Pippen despite never making All-Defense.

So all-defense is overrated in the context that we're talking about because Jordan had less defensive help overall than his peers by virtue of zero rim protection in a big man league, and lower defensive ranking than every ECF and Finals opponent during the 1st three-peat, except the Suns - the Suns were 9th on defense and the Bulls' 7th... TLDR: Jordan had less defensive and offensive help than his peers - this is the statistical and historical record.







Show me the other teams in the 90s with a top shelf elite sidekick





The 25-year old Stockton dominated Magic in the 88' Playoffs and carried the Jazz to the 97' Finals at 35, while also dominating Arenas at 40 years old in 2003... This caliber was standard for Stockton, who is the all-time leader in steals, assists and a goat-level point guard.. Pippen is nowhere near this caliber and was trash in 2003 (while Stockton was still killing at 40 and throughout his career)... This caliber matters more than the opinion of a few dozen journalism majors (All-NBA voting)..







sidekick that makes the all nba and all defense team in the same season once let alone consistently.





Payton made more All-NBA and All-Defense than Pippen, while Stockton has 16 All-NBA and All-Defense (11/5), compared to Pippen's 17 (7/10)..

So that's a couple 2nd options that were All-NBA and All-Defense, but there are more that compare as well.. Larry Nance averaged 2.5 blocks for his career from the SF position, while being perennial all-defender and all-star that outplayed Pippen in the 88' and 89' Playoffs (and played pretty even in 92').. Larry Nance is a great comparison because Pippen never played above a Larry Nance caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.







Or in the 2nd 3peat basically a 2nd franchise player.






96-98' Playoffs

Pippen...... 17.6 on 41%


A franchise player is expected to produce at an elite level and therefore asked to build a team from scratch.. Pippen was never a franchise player that built anything and was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94'... No one was surprised when the bubble burst quickly - the Bulls declined to 2nd Round and then borderline .500 in 1995, so Pippen was reducing the franchise instead of growing it like a real franchise player does..

After cratering a 3-peat dynasty to borderline .500, Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs to get carried to another 3-peat.. This included the worst efficiency that anyone ever had in the playoffs for 2 of those runs (see chart above)... Ultimately, the statistical record shows that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

[sdot_thadon]

Barkley, Malone and Duncan are "stud" PF's, while Kukoc, Horace and 36-year Rodman were role players..

So Jordan won with role players at PF, while Lebron needed franchise players like Love, Bosh, or AD.







* 36-year Rodman compares to 2010 Shaq and actually much worse (3/8 for the 97' Playoffs and he wasn't the starter in 98' Playoffs)

* Horace was an 11/8 player and destroyed by opposing frontcourts in every series - a literal punching bag... Oakley was better... Otis Thorpe was easily better.. Horry destroyed him in the 95' Finals.







There were numerous 2nd options in the 90's that were All-NBA and All-Defense, but I'll get to that later because Jokic, Barkley, Curry, and many others are far better than Pippen despite never making All-Defense.

So all-defense is overrated in the context that we're talking about because Jordan had less defensive help overall than his peers by virtue of zero rim protection in a big man league, and lower defensive ranking than every ECF and Finals opponent during the 1st three-peat, except the Suns - the Suns were 9th on defense and the Bulls' 7th... TLDR: Jordan had less defensive and offensive help than his peers - this is the statistical and historical record.







The 25-year old Stockton dominated Magic in the 88' Playoffs and carried the Jazz to the 97' Finals at 35, while also dominating Arenas at 40 years old in 2003... This caliber was standard for Stockton, who is the all-time leader in steals, assists and a goat-level point guard.. Pippen is nowhere near this caliber and was trash in 2003 (while Stockton was still killing at 40 and throughout his career)... This caliber matters more than the opinion of a few dozen journalism majors (All-NBA voting)..







Payton made more All-NBA and All-Defense than Pippen, while Stockton has 16 All-NBA and All-Defense (11/5), compared to Pippen's 17 (7/10)..

So that's a couple 2nd options that were All-NBA and All-Defense, but there are more that compare as well.. Larry Nance averaged 2.5 blocks for his career from the SF position, while being perennial all-defender and all-star that outplayed Pippen in the 88' and 89' Playoffs (and played pretty even in 92').. Larry Nance is a great comparison because Pippen never played above a Larry Nance caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.








96-98' Playoffs

Pippen...... 17.6 on 41%


A franchise player is expected to produce at an elite level and therefore asked to build a team from scratch.. Pippen was never a franchise player that built anything and was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94'... No one was surprised when the bubble burst quickly - the Bulls declined to 2nd Round and then borderline .500 in 1995, so Pippen was reducing the franchise instead of growing it like a real franchise player does..

After cratering a 3-peat dynasty to borderline .500, Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs to get carried to another 3-peat.. This included the worst efficiency that anyone ever had in the playoffs for 2 of those runs (see chart above)... Ultimately, the statistical record shows that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

That awkward moment where the so called 90s basketball fan doesn't know Payton was the 1st option on his squads lol. So yeah let's continue to compare Scottie to 1st options that's where he belongs anyway. And yeah definitely a franchise guy who led a team to 55 wins and had a 3rd place mvp finish without Mj. Sidekicks don't finish 3rd in Mvp voting sir. Also knew Stockton would be the 1st name out of your mouth because he's the only one. And that said he did it 5 times, Scottie? 7. Stockton never made 1st team for both, meanwhile Scottie was 1st team all nba/all defensive 1st team the same season.....3 times. There's a whole level between Stockton and Pippen my man.

About those PF, you do realize that only 2 PF in the entire league make all defensive teams each season right? So I'd imagine having one of those 2 guys is definitely not considered having a "bum" on any level. Toni was 6th man of the year, didnt know that was a bum award too. Rodman and Grant were both vital to Chicago's title runs. Without either there isn't a chip to speak of. Never forget: MJ had the Most help, not the least.

[Hey Yo]

Rodman stealing multiple fmvp votes from MJ with his 7ppg against Seattle.

[sdot_thadon]

Rodman stealing multiple fmvp votes from MJ with his 7ppg against Seattle.

Must have been some mighty buckets lol. What a bum stealing fmvp votes from the goat.

[Hey Yo]

Must have been some mighty buckets lol. What a bum stealing fmvp votes from the goat.

Plus Kemp getting 3 votes in a losing effort.

[PeroAntic]

21 pages for an absolutely idiotic question that completely disregards defensive impact. this shithole never fails to amaze

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg

[3ba11]

Payton was the 1st option on his squads lol.





Negative.

Kemp led the Sonics in scoring for the regular season and playoffs in 93', 94', 96', and also at their pinnacle in the Finals - Phil Jackson comments during the 96' championship video that Kemp was the only threat - video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbpNLjbZHGI&t=31m05s)... Kemp dominated so much that he was a rare candidate for FMVP on the losing side... And the 1 year that the Sonics had 3 All-NBA selections was 95', and Kemp led them in scoring in the playoffs (24.8)..

Edit: Schrempf was leading scorer in the 94' Playoffs, while also being 2nd-leading scorer in the 95' Playoffs - he was a 39% three-point shooter that would've been be a Banchero-like player back then if they featured versatile bigs the way they do today.







So yeah let's continue to compare Scottie to 1st options that's where he belongs anyway.





The stats prove that Payton wasn't the Sonics' 1st option or a go-to player, just like Magic wasn't on the Lakers and it was Kareem that led the team in scoring until 87'.. This is similar to Kemp leading the Sonics in scoring and being their go-player for nearly every regular season and playoffs.

So Payton was the set-up guy and Kemp was the go-to player, or the sharp-shooting Schrempf, who destroyed Pippen in the 96' Finals.. The majority of opposing SF's in Pippen's playoff career outscored him, and he only outscored opposing guards that were underperforming against MJ (Starks, Dumars, Hornacek, Magic, Steve Smith, etc, etc, etc).. It's quite a trend.. Meanwhile, his own matchup destroyed him like Schrempf, X-Man, Nance, Aguirre, Newman, Dominique, Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson, Tracy Murray, Glen Rice, and more..







Pippen belongs as a 1st option





Despite Pippen not being on the scouting report and MJ facing all the defensive attention, Pippen still had worst-ever efficiency, including the 93' and 96-98' Playoffs!!

Pippen's historically-bad efficiency proves that he couldn't handle a 2nd option load and was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer - Jordan made up for Pippen's low production with his own goat scoring, and he overcame Pippen's bricklaying and lane-clogging with all-time jumpshooting ability to shoot over packed paints.






And yeah definitely a franchise guy who led a team to 55 wins





Franchise players are asked to build a team from scratch, while Pippen was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever and quickly destroyed it... Everyone knew that they weren't a real 55-win team and no one was surprised when the bubble burst quickly... The only question is whether it's possible to destroy a 3-peat dynasty faster than Pippen did, since he cratered the goat dynasty to borderline .500 in less than 18 months before MJ returned in 95'.

Accordingly, the 94' and 95' seasons confirmed that if everyone on a team is a worse scorer than Pippen, then the team will stink and even a 3-peat dynasty will fall out of contention QUICKLY as we saw in 95'.. Pippen was just a dunker and nothing outside the triangle as we saw in Houston in 99', or under Doug Collins in 89'.. The stats and historical record tracks everything I'm saying, so it isn't opinion - it's just informing you of the historical record.







Sidekicks don't finish 3rd in Mvp voting sir.





Tons of guys did - too many to name, but I'll name a few so you get the picture.... :facepalm:

Payton was 3rd in 98... Penny was 3rd in 96'... Magic was 2nd in 91' and he was Kareem's sidekick (Kareem led Lakers in scoring for RS & PO until 87'), or even Worthy's.

McHale was 4th in 87', and Tim Hardaway was 4th in 97', or Alonzo was 2nd and 3rd in 98' and 99'.. Paul George and Blake Griffin were 3rd...

And none of these guys were fake candidates that got handed a goat dynasty, goat chemistry, and a massive surprise factor on their side.. The bubble inevitably burst and the real Bulls were borderline .500 in 95' - they were going nowhere due to low roster talent and no scoring.. Accordingly, Pippen famously pointed to the Jumpman symbol on his shoes and hoped MJ could lift their .500 team to 3-peat again... He did....... for the 2nd time.







Also knew Stockton would be the 1st name out of your mouth because he's the only one.





I mentioned a bunch of 2-way players that were the same caliber as Pippen, such as Payton, Stockton, or Nance..

But you never addressed the fact that Jokic, Curry, Luka, Barkley and many more are far superior players than Pippen without being good defenders, so individual defense isn't a good argument when comparing 2 players... Jordan had far less defensive help than his peers by virtue of zero rim protection in a big man league, and lower defensive ranking than every ECF and Finals opponent during the 1st three-peat, except the Suns - the Suns were 9th on defense and the Bulls' 7th...

So who cares about Pippen's defense when it didn't give the Bulls a better defense than any ECF or Finals opponent?.. Any good big man would provide the Bulls more help on both sides of the ball, so Pippen's defense was quite replaceable and therefore cannot be considered a big factor when comparing him to another player.







Toni was 6th man of the year, didnt know that was a bum award too. Rodman and Grant were both vital to Chicago's title runs.





Exactly - Toni was a 6MOY and bench player just like JR Smith, so Jordan won with a bench player as the starter in 98' over fossil Rodman, who averaged 3/8 in the previous playoffs in 97'.

Old Rodman was worse than 2010 Shaq, but the difference is that Lebron wasn't good enough to drag old Shaq to titles like MJ did with old Rodman.. Incidentally, 2010 Shaq would've been the best center that jordan ever had BY FAR, and he would've been 2nd option over Pippen on many nights.

Meanwhile, Horace was worse than Boozer, Jamison, Bosh, Love, Zydrunas, or Knecht, and compares to Haslem, Birdman, Tristan, or Drew Gooden.







Without these PF's, there isn't a chip to speak of.





Every team needs a power forward because teams aren't allowed to play 4 on 5.

But guys like Horace, Kukoc and old Rodman would've been replaced by anyone like Horry, PJ Brown, Tyrone Hill, Oakley - tons of guys - Buck Williams or Thorpe would be massive upgrades over these guys for example..... Horace, Kukoc and old Rodman simply were low-producing role players that every team has.

[SouBeachTalents]

Negative.

Kemp led the Sonics in scoring for the regular season and playoffs in 93', 94', 96', and also at their pinnacle in the Finals - Phil Jackson comments during the 96' championship video that Kemp was the only threat - video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbpNLjbZHGI&t=31m05s)... Kemp dominated so much that he was a rare candidate for FMVP on the losing side... And the 1 year that the Sonics had 3 All-NBA selections was 95', and Kemp led them in scoring in the playoffs (24.8)..

Edit: Schrempf was leading scorer in the 94' Playoffs, while also being 2nd-leading scorer in the 95' Playoffs - he was a 39% three-point shooter that would've been be a Banchero-like player back then if they featured versatile bigs the way they do today.







The stats prove that Payton wasn't the Sonics' 1st option or a go-to player, just like Magic wasn't on the Lakers and it was Kareem that led the team in scoring until 87'.. This is similar to Kemp leading the Sonics in scoring and being their go-player for nearly every regular season and playoffs.

So Payton was the set-up guy and Kemp was the go-to player, or the sharp-shooting Schrempf, who destroyed Pippen in the 96' Finals.. The majority of opposing SF's in Pippen's playoff career outscored him, and he only outscored opposing guards that were underperforming against MJ (Starks, Dumars, Hornacek, Magic, Steve Smith, etc, etc, etc).. It's quite a trend.. Meanwhile, his own matchup destroyed him like Schrempf, X-Man, Nance, Aguirre, Newman, Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson, Tracy Murray, Glen Rice, and more..







Despite Pippen not being on the scouting report and MJ facing all the defensive attention, Pippen still had worst-ever efficiency, including the 93' and 96-98' Playoffs!!

Pippen's historically-bad efficiency proves that he couldn't handle a 2nd option load and was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer - Jordan made up for Pippen's low production with his own goat scoring, and he overcame Pippen's bricklaying and lane-clogging with all-time jumpshooting ability to shoot over packed paints.






Franchise players are asked to build a team from scratch, while Pippen was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever and quickly destroyed it... Everyone knew that they weren't a real 55-win team and no one was surprised when the bubble burst quickly... The only question is whether it's possible to destroy a 3-peat dynasty faster than Pippen did, since he cratered the goat dynasty to borderline .500 in less than 18 months before MJ returned in 95'.

Accordingly, the 94' and 95' seasons confirmed that if everyone on a team is a worse scorer than Pippen, then the team will stink and even a 3-peat dynasty will fall out of contention QUICKLY as we saw in 95'.. Pippen was just a dunker and nothing outside the triangle as we saw in Houston in 99', or under Doug Collins in 89'.. The stats and historical record tracks everything I'm saying, so it isn't opinion - it's just informing you of the historical record.







Tons of guys did - too many to name, but I'll name a few so you get the picture.... :facepalm:

Payton was 3rd in 98... Penny was 3rd in 96'... Magic was 2nd in 91' and he was Kareem's sidekick (Kareem led Lakers in scoring for RS & PO until 87'), or even Worthy's.

McHale was 4th in 87', and Tim Hardaway was 4th in 97', or Alonzo was 2nd and 3rd in 98' and 99'.. Paul George and Blake Griffin were 3rd...

And none of these guys were fake candidates that got handed a goat dynasty, goat chemistry, and a massive surprise factor on their side.. The bubble inevitably burst and the real Bulls were borderline .500 in 95' - they were going nowhere due to low roster talent and no scoring.. Accordingly, Pippen famously pointed to the Jumpman symbol on his shoes and hoped MJ could lift their .500 team to 3-peat again... He did....... for the 2nd time.







I mentioned a bunch of 2-way players that were the same caliber as Pippen, such as Payton, Stockton, or Nance..

But you never addressed the fact that Jokic, Curry, Luka, Barkley and many more are far superior players than Pippen without being good defenders, so individual defense isn't a good argument when comparing 2 players... Jordan had far less defensive help than his peers by virtue of zero rim protection in a big man league, and lower defensive ranking than every ECF and Finals opponent during the 1st three-peat, except the Suns - the Suns were 9th on defense and the Bulls' 7th...

So who cares about Pippen's defense when it didn't give the Bulls a better defense than any ECF or Finals opponent?.. Any good big man would provide the Bulls more help on both sides of the ball, so Pippen's defense was quite replaceable and therefore cannot be considered a big factor when comparing him to another player.







Exactly - Toni was a 6MOY and bench player just like JR Smith, so Jordan won with a bench player as the starter in 98' over fossil Rodman, who averaged 3/8 in the previous playoffs in 97'.

Old Rodman was worse than 2010 Shaq, but the difference is that Lebron wasn't good enough to drag old Shaq to titles like MJ did with old Rodman.. Incidentally, 2010 Shaq would've been the best center that jordan ever had BY FAR, and he would've been 2nd option over Pippen on many nights.

Meanwhile, Horace was worse than Boozer, Jamison, Bosh, Love, Zydrunas, or Knecht, and compares to Haslem, Birdman, Tristan, or Drew Gooden.







Every team needs a power forward because teams aren't allowed to play 4 on 5.

But guys like Horace, Kukoc and old Rodman would've been replaced by anyone like Horry, PJ Brown, Tyrone Hill, Oakley - tons of guys - Buck Williams or Thorpe would be massive upgrades over these guys for example..... Horace, Kukoc and old Rodman simply were low-producing role players that every team has.
Another raucous weekend on tap for 3ball. Make sure to get to your expert jump shooting and preseason favorites talking points at some point in this thread, we could use a Klay vs Hornacek stats comparison as well.

[3ba11]

Another raucous weekend on tap for 3ball. Make sure to get to your expert jump shooting and preseason favorites talking points at some point in this thread, we could use a Klay vs Hornacek stats comparison as well.


I'm simply responding directly to all of sdot's points... .:confusedshrug:

And then haters pile on.... standard procedure... :whatever:

[3ba11]

A good team offense requires the best players to be good offensive players, but a good team defense doesn't require the best players to be good defenders.. There are many ways to skin a cat to get a good team defense, which is why Bird and Curry had #1 defenses and are considered much better than Pippen despite being weak defenders.. This is also why individual defense isn't that important when comparing 2 great players...

And despite Pippen's presence, Jordan still had less defensive help than his peers by virtue of zero rim protection in a big man league, and lower defensive ranking than every ECF and Finals opponent during the 1st three-peat (except the Suns - the Suns were 9th on defense and the Bulls' 7th).. In addition to the superior defenses of ECF and Finals opponents, the 92' Knicks took the Bulls 7 games in the 2nd Round and they also had a better defense (#2 in the league).

Ultimately, Kobe's 5 chips in the triangle with zero playmaking help proved that Pippen's measly 5-6 assists weren't needed - the triangle moves the ball and generates assists on it's own, and MJ averaged more assists than Pippen or Kobe anyway.. The reality is that Pippen was mostly a dunker that wasn't even a great fit in the triangle by virtue of worst-ever efficiency, bricklaying and lane-clogging (see chart in previous posts above).

The only thing the triangle requires is the goat shooting guard and goat scorer (11 chips with MJ or Kobe) - it has zero rings without a perimeter player providing this caliber of both iso scoring and assisted scoring, thereby promoting the best ball movement, fits and offensive diversity.. It turns out that dumping the ball into Shaq doesn't promote great ball movement like having a perimeter player that can get 30 on quick jumpers and non-ball-dominant iso's - this goat scoring caliber is required for the triangle to win titles instead of being the most hated, restrictive, and unworkable offense ever.

[CountDracula]

https://i.ibb.co/Vc7KLJT9/472321191-1127518585584165-392394076786163582-n.jpg (https://ibb.co/S4hL65By)

[And1AllDay]

legoat > mikey mouse