Lebron has GOAT talent

[StrongLurk]

But not GOAT mental toughness/spirit. I can assume this is the general consensus after the million minutes we've seen Lebron play in the NBA.

It's pretty much the sole reason for him being the most polarizing NBA player ever. One side sees the amazing talent/ability/domination, while the other side sees a guy who didn't MAXIMIZE his talents due to his own internal faults (not saying Lebron has a bad work-ethic since the dude clearly works hard at basketball, I'm referencing his mental toughness/spirit which is MUCH harder to change). I'm also NOT saying LeBron is unclutch overall. He is a clutch player overall, but his behavior in the clutch can range drastically.

It's basically the sole reason why plenty of people rate Kobe over Lebron. I personally have Lebron > Kobe, but I think Kobe truly maximized his talents...which just shows how insane Lebron is since I think Lebron at about 80% maxed talent is still slightly better than 100% maxed Kobe.

I think we can all agree that if Lebron had Kobe's spirit/mental toughness, then he'd be GOAT or at least CO-GOAT with MJ.

It's also why it's so fascinating that a guy like Lebron who is a consensus top 5 player of all time at worse...can still feel somewhat like a disappointment at times.

[FireDavidKahn]

LeBron will almost certainly end up with the most points in NBA history along with the 3rd most assists ever.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=ast&c1comp=gt&order_by=ast

He only needs 1,120 to pass magic johnson to jump up to top 5 and 1,314 to pass Steve Nash to take the 3rd spot.

Let's conservatively assume he plays 35 more games in the regular season.At his current rate of 10.9 apg he would end up 382 which would give him a career total of 9,403. Then lets assume he plays 70 games next year and his APG drops to 10 which would give him a total of 10,103 which puts him just behind Magic.

Basically after 2 more full seasons he will pass Nash and have the 3rd most assists ever

GOAT

[Gileraracer]

And the unbiased side sees a guy with great talent who needed two superstar collusions to not end up ringless.

[LAmbruh]

LeBron will almost certainly end up with the most points in NBA history along with the 3rd most assists ever.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=ast&c1comp=gt&order_by=ast

He only needs 1,120 to pass magic johnson to jump up to top 5 and 1,314 to pass Steve Nash to take the 3rd spot.

Let's conservatively assume he plays 35 more games in the regular season.At his current rate of 10.9 apg he would end up 382 which would give him a career total of 9,403. Then lets assume he plays 70 games next year and his APG drops to 10 which would give him a total of 10,103 which puts him just behind Magic.

Basically after 2 more full seasons he will pass Nash and have the 3rd most assists ever

GOAT
Flourishing post :applause:

[FKAri]

Most of the guys you would claim to have greater mental toughness than Lebron would have collapsed under the pressure he was in at age 17.

['Toine=MVP]

If this was just a debate between talent (how good he is) and greatness (his legacy), we would have reasonable parameters. People could just say they don't care about greatness, because greatness is highly dependent on circumstance. Those people shouldn't weigh in on the GOAT debate though, as it is about greatness (legacy) and LeBron's is lacking.

But OP, it's worse than that. This is a debate about greatness vs career stats totals. There are dummies that have Kareem ranked above Wilt and Russell, while no one at the time thought he was better than them and his legacy is quite a bit weaker than both of them too. I was a victim of this at one point in my life too. But the whole Kareem argument rests on career accumulators (even his last several rings were that). And more and more, that is what the LeBron argument for top 5 rests on too.

[superduper]

If this was just a debate between talent (how good he is) and greatness (his legacy), we would have reasonable parameters. People could just say they don't care about greatness, because greatness is highly dependent on circumstance. Those people shouldn't weigh in on the GOAT debate though, as it is about greatness (legacy) and LeBron's is lacking.

But OP, it's worse than that. This is a debate about greatness vs career stats totals. There are dummies that have Kareem ranked above Wilt and Russell, while no one at the time thought he was better than them and his legacy is quite a bit weaker than both of them too. I was a victim of this at one point in my life too. But the whole Kareem argument rests on career accumulators (even his last several rings were that). And more and more, that is what the LeBron argument for top 5 rests on too.

Good post. Bran has a lot of "accumulation achievements" which naturally accrue over time. That part about Bran is definitely impressive, the time and longevity he was able to get to work in his favor, however, in terms of talent/mentality/leadership/intangibles/skill, Bran is severely lacking.

His entire "greatness" arguement rests entirely on longevity/athleticism and counting stats. Some people may value longevity and athleticism the most but most do not. When it comes to GOAT status, it is all about domination.

[lilteapot]

But not GOAT mental toughness/spirit. I can assume this is the general consensus after the million minutes we've seen Lebron play in the NBA.

It's pretty much the sole reason for him being the most polarizing NBA player ever. One side sees the amazing talent/ability/domination, while the other side sees a guy who didn't MAXIMIZE his talents due to his own internal faults (not saying Lebron has a bad work-ethic since the dude clearly works hard at basketball, I'm referencing his mental toughness/spirit which is MUCH harder to change). I'm also NOT saying LeBron is unclutch overall. He is a clutch player overall, but his behavior in the clutch can range drastically.

It's basically the sole reason why plenty of people rate Kobe over Lebron. I personally have Lebron > Kobe, but I think Kobe truly maximized his talents...which just shows how insane Lebron is since I think Lebron at about 80% maxed talent is still slightly better than 100% maxed Kobe.

I think we can all agree that if Lebron had Kobe's spirit/mental toughness, then he'd be GOAT or at least CO-GOAT with MJ.

It's also why it's so fascinating that a guy like Lebron who is a consensus top 5 player of all time at worse...can still feel somewhat like a disappointment at times.

Does your stupid ass really think this is some brand new take? I bet you thought it was some profound conclusion. Congrats for talking about the same thing people have said for the past 15 years.

['Toine=MVP]

When it comes to GOAT status, it is all about domination.

I don't quite agree with this, but I think it is at least a lot better than the stat accumulator argument or other dumb arguments.

Again, greatness is legacy. I probably have LeBron rated higher than you do, but he's not really a candidate for NBA's mount Rushmore either. His net impact on the sport is mixed at best, and might even be negative. He was the first elite player to duck his top rivals. And it is worse than just something he did, but in fact it one of his biggest legacies, as Durant followed in disgusting fashion and other top players began demanding trades the year before they pulled the same kind of chump move. And he failed harder than any other top 10 player in his prime in the finals, just flat out quitting. But he was physically dominant. So "dominance" shouldn't be the term you use. The main issue holding him back, even from non haters, just serious students of the game, is that he is never able to shut up the naysayers. People hated Bird, but he shut them up and everyone ended up conceding their arguments. People hated Shaq like crazy, but in the end all that was left was pure hate, not reasoned argument. Everyone eventually bowed down and conceded to Jordan (at the time). Wilt and Russell were long considered the greatest ever and people at the time laughed at the idea that Kareem was on their level. Kareem never overcame. He's the most LeBron esque player ever. Lots of talent, long career, didn't win enough people over, especially the most astute students of the game.

[lilteapot]

Who did Lebron "duck" exactly? He never ever played Wade in the playoffs and Wade was on shitty Heat teams that would've gotten killed by those 08-10 cavs teams.

['Toine=MVP]

Who did Lebron "duck" exactly? He never ever played Wade in the playoffs and Wade was on shitty Heat teams that would've gotten killed by those 08-10 cavs teams.

:facepalm

[lilteapot]

:facepalm

No answer, figures.

[StrongLurk]

Does your stupid ass really think this is some brand new take? I bet you thought it was some profound conclusion. Congrats for talking about the same thing people have said for the past 15 years.

No I don't think it's a new take. My OP is not pretentious in any capacity.

I just think it's interesting.

[ArbitraryWater]

If only Bran had Kobe's spirit/mental toughness man, imagine..

maybe he'd have won more chips. Been better in the finals. in elimination games. game 7's. last second shots. pulled off more comebacks.

we can only imagine

:lol

[StrongLurk]

If only Bran had Kobe's spirit/mental toughness man, imagine..

maybe he'd have won more chips. Been better in the finals. in elimination games. game 7's. last second shots. pulled off more comebacks.

we can only imagine

:lol

Are you serious? All those things you mentioned WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

2011 meltdown would not have happened, so Lebron right there has 4FMVPs and would have probably put up his usual 25-30ppg in that series. Also Lebron would be an 80%-85% free throw shooter because he wouldn't get shook at the line.

Sure, Lebron still loses some of the finals. But he would be a better player if he was more consistent mentally.

He has a ton of highs on MJ levels, but his lows and much worse than MJs lows.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No I don't think it's a new take. My OP is not pretentious in any capacity.

I just think it's interesting.

It could be more interesting. Everything you said though are old talking points from somebody else. Nothing new...or interesting.

Bron's mental approach or lack thereof is overstated. People yap about Magic Johnson being a mental wizard. A guy who galvanized teams. Clutch etc. LeBron is all of that but just not a very good FT shooter. That's really it.

He's not Bird or Jordan, but Lebron is definitely "mentally tough". You don't stay elite for 17 years bullshitting around. Lebron is absolutely internally motivated.

[HylianNightmare]

Nailed it

[AirBonner]

Op believes LeBron would have been

[ArbitraryWater]

Are you serious? All those things you mentioned WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

2011 meltdown would not have happened, so Lebron right there has 4FMVPs and would have probably put up his usual 25-30ppg in that series. Also Lebron would be an 80%-85% free throw shooter because he wouldn't get shook at the line.

Sure, Lebron still loses some of the finals. But he would be a better player if he was more consistent mentally.

He has a ton of highs on MJ levels, but his lows and much worse than MJs lows.

all you were able to pick out as alternative outcome is the 2011 finals?

whoosh. big win on your side.

i still remember lebron's weak mentality that year. most hated athlete in the country.

came to the most hostile arena in maybe ever and dropped 38 in 3 in his CLE return.

In the Celtics ECSF they're down 5 8 mins removed from a 2-2 series, LeBron closes the 4th quarter scoring 11 points and getting a stop at the buzzer on Pierce.
The 10-0 personal close-out run in game 5.
The 19-4 co-led run with Wade + go-ahead 3-pointer and block at the buzzer on Rose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOwCjHloLnI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mvhQWuXWKU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgLMI784M4E

mentally throwing up all over the court :(


If only he could have closed some finals games, like in 2018, when he scored 13 4th quarter points on 5/6 and drew a game-clinching charge on KD, outplaying both KD and Curry together..

just like how Kobe always exceled in the finals. in the 4th quarters. pure alpha blood flowing through that man's veins.

I still remember when he went 1-6 brick after brick in the 4th quarter of the 2010 finals game 3 on the road to get back home advantage, when he saved his team as Fisher poured in 11 points on 5-7 in what was a 3-4 pt game throughout.

Or when he went 1-4 in the 4th and 6-24 in game 7, saving his team and afterwards admitting he was too tunnel visioned.


https://swishnba.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/photo.jpg



damn killer.

what a shame. if only.

[PP34Deuce]

Lebron is more talented than a lot of GOATS like Kareem, MJ, etc...

I also think he's done trying to chase MJ. The media and fans are the ones insisting on that. This man is trying to build an empire off the court. It's about money and influence for him.

2016 was the last time you saw Lebron hungry at basketball. He played elite two way defense and would go out at his opposing SF.

After he won that title, that was like his Magnum Opus. Now it's money, stats, and if he happens to win a title in LA, that's the cherry.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron is more talented than a lot of GOATS like Kareem, MJ, etc...

I also think he's done trying to chase MJ. The media and fans are the ones insisting on that. This man is trying to build an empire off the court. It's about money and influence for him.

2016 was the last time you saw Lebron hungry at basketball. He played elite two way defense and would go out at his opposing SF.

After he won that title, that was like his Magnum Opus. Now it's money, stats, and if he happens to win a title in LA, that's the cherry.

:facepalm


yup, coasting mentality evident all throughout 2018. wait no, that was probably the hungriest athlete i've ever seen. a day after the '17 finals he was back in the gym. here he is year 17 preparing and working and taking care of his body more than anyone. just about movies doe

[FKAri]

It could be more interesting. Everything you said though are old talking points from somebody else. Nothing new...or interesting.

Bron's mental approach or lack thereof is overstated. People yap about Magic Johnson being a mental wizard. A guy who galvanized teams. Clutch etc. LeBron is all of that but just not a very good FT shooter. That's really it.

He's not Bird or Jordan, but Lebron is definitely "mentally tough". You don't stay elite for 17 years bullshitting around. Lebron is absolutely internally motivated.
Pretty much this

[ArbitraryWater]

all you were able to pick out as alternative outcome is the 2011 finals?

whoosh. big win on your side.

i still remember lebron's weak mentality that year. most hated athlete in the country.

came to the most hostile arena in maybe ever and dropped 38 in 3 in his CLE return.

In the Celtics ECSF they're down 5 8 mins removed from a 2-2 series, LeBron closes the 4th quarter scoring 11 points and getting a stop at the buzzer on Pierce.
The 10-0 personal close-out run in game 5.
The 19-4 co-led run with Wade + go-ahead 3-pointer and block at the buzzer on Rose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOwCjHloLnI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mvhQWuXWKU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgLMI784M4E

mentally throwing up all over the court :(


If only he could have closed some finals games, like in 2018, when he scored 13 4th quarter points on 5/6 and drew a game-clinching charge on KD, outplaying both KD and Curry together..

just like how Kobe always exceled in the finals. in the 4th quarters. pure alpha blood flowing through that man's veins.

I still remember when he went 1-6 brick after brick in the 4th quarter of the 2010 finals game 3 on the road to get back home advantage, when he saved his team as Fisher poured in 11 points on 5-7 in what was a 3-4 pt game throughout.

Or when he went 1-4 in the 4th and 6-24 in game 7, saving his team and afterwards admitting he was too tunnel visioned.


https://swishnba.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/photo.jpg



damn killer.

what a shame. if only.


absolute crickets

[Manny98]

Nah game 6 of the ECF proved that LeBron is mentally tough + coming back from 3-1 in 2016 that takes some serious mental fortitude

Pre 2012 he wasn't that tough mentally I guess

[guy]

Lebron is more talented than a lot of GOATS like Kareem, MJ, etc...

I also think he's done trying to chase MJ. The media and fans are the ones insisting on that. This man is trying to build an empire off the court. It's about money and influence for him.

2016 was the last time you saw Lebron hungry at basketball. He played elite two way defense and would go out at his opposing SF.

After he won that title, that was like his Magnum Opus. Now it's money, stats, and if he happens to win a title in LA, that's the cherry.

He’s done trying to surpass Jordan the old-fashioned way of actually dominating and winning. But he’s still trying to establish the “narrative” that he’s “surpassed” Jordan through his brand i.e. actually calling himself the GOAT when no one ever disrespected the game that much to do that before, continuously highlighting his off the court contributions and pointing out that Jordan didn’t do “as much” his showtime special even though that has nothing to do with basketball, and then of course his longevity records which while it is impressive and difficult it’s not as difficult and doesn’t come with nearly as much resistance from direct competition as actually winning more championships as the best player.

[FKAri]

Lebron is more talented than a lot of GOATS like Kareem, MJ], etc...
Debatable on both counts. Definitely not MJ. If anything, Lebron maximized his talent more than MJ did (and still came up short). Mainly because MJ wasn't pushed hard enough. He pushed himself incredibly hard but it's not the same as being pushed by a rival no matter how competitive or driven you are. It's just human nature.

[tpols]

It's not just clutch stuff, but also fit.

LeBron has drastically reduced stars hes played with.

And killed mad coaches and cultures...

Combine it all and you get a big negative to add to the balance sheet.

[andgar923]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhxKwrZkpyE&t=24s embarrassing :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Vino24]

LeBulge is the GOAT talent. Without him the Lakers fold like a cheap tent

[andgar923]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhxKwrZkpyE&t=24s embarrassing :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[LAL]

What talent are we talking about here? Running and jumping? Then yeah, i guess.

You know damn well it's not just the mentality, it's his actual game too.