So I see this abominable thread on Reddit disrespecting Larry Legend

[FKAri]

https://www.reddit.com/r/starterpacks/comments/ejrfth/second_choice/fd0cajq/



Something about things which are second best. Now I see Larry Bird is on there and I'm a bit confused. Not really my #2 GOAT but OK. But then it's pointed out that it's about how he's 2nd place in the Magic vs Bird debate.
And i'm absolutely furious.



http://cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2019/05/cafc573a508c1203-600x338.gif


I've stood idly by as Magic (after his retirement) has inexplicably climbed higher and higher on all time lists perhaps due to the advancement of the LGBTQX movement. But now it's gotten to the point where a bunch of kids who saw neither of them play believe that it's some Jeopardy trivia fact that Magic was better than Bird? FOH.

[brooks_thompson]

I know what you mean. Bird keeps sliding down all time lists for no explicable reason. Only one guy has passed him (Lebron, only due to longevity imo; I'd take Larry over LBJ easily, but I understand how these 'lists' work) yet he just keeps going down.

And for Larry vs. Magic, lol. I know who I'd take every day of the week, no matter my team makeup. Larry was widely considered the GOAT until MJ had been in the league for a few years.

[sdot_thadon]

He "surpassed" him in goat talks around the same time Russell mysteriously "surpassed" Wilt in those same debates. The whole ring counting thing became prevalent in the mid to late 90s and shook up alot of fan perspective on things. Just let it sink in that Russell was able to surpass Wilt despite not having played in 20 years.....and Kareem rise to nearly a consensus no.2 in retirement.

[Akeem34TheDream]

I don't think Bird is underappreciated in Ish. I made a poll couple days ago asking Kobe or Bird, and it was one sided favoring Bird. Most people probably have him top 5.

['Toine=MVP]

I don't think Bird is underappreciated in Ish. I made a poll couple days ago asking Kobe or Bird, and it was one sided favoring Bird. Most people probably have him top 5.

I think some LeBron stans try super hard to push certain guys down that were actually better than him or certainly have greater legacies than him. The same kind of people that put Kareem in the top 3.

So if you are a Kareem fan, you are probably going to hate on Bird and Shaq and others that were just better than him and have better legacies, not to mention Wilt and Russell and the consensus was clear that Kareem never passed either of them in ability/talent/impact (while Kareem was still playing).

[Phoenix]

I think alot of people point to their finals head to head as the tiebreaker and ring count, but Larry definitely had the better peak. It basically took his back going out for Magic to pass him on-court. You wanna about skill level and IQ? A 36 year old crippled Bird in 92 put up 20/10/7, probably jumped an inch off the ground and his 'run' was a painful looking jog by then.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The only "second rate" thing about that thread are the people co-signing it.

Most people on here...well the posters who attempt to have an honest discussion, at least know their history. Ditto with posters over @ RGM.

The only reason Magic is perceived greater is because he wasn't injured, and Bird was. Larry had the better peak. And probably the better prime too.

[Phoenix]

I don't think Bird is underappreciated in Ish. I made a poll couple days ago asking Kobe or Bird, and it was one sided favoring Bird. Most people probably have him top 5.

I don't really think that says much. There's an anti-Kobe contingent here that would vote against Kobe just because it's Kobe. Now, that doesn't mean I'm saying he was worse or better, but this is the last place on earth to find a reasonable conversation or conduct a poll to derive any meaningful data from.

['Toine=MVP]

I don't really think that says much. There's an anti-Kobe contingent here that would vote against Kobe just because it's Kobe. Now, that doesn't mean I'm saying he was worse or better, but this is the last place on earth to find a reasonable conversation or conduct a poll to derive any meaningful data from.

It is virtually impossible to completely account for the stans and haters. But I do think it is mainly just LeBron and Kobe, mostly LeBron, that are significantly affected.

If we could search histories, we could see any account that ever created a thread or signed onto a thread about LeBron comparing favorably to MJ or any time anyone has even put LeBron #1 on a greatness list (or outside the top 10), and just eliminate their votes. The people that say LeBron is the clear #2 to MJ are wrong, but at least they can pretend to be reasonable people.

With Kobe, it would be similar, but a bit less polar. Anyone ever having him top 5 on a GOAT list would be eliminated as stans. There aren't that many Kobe stans that make outlandish claims about other great players (besides LeBron) though (LeBron stans live to try to diminish others to try to make LeBron seem great). So probably the top 5 test is good enough for Kobe. And I don't know how we could easily eliminate the haters. Let's say leaving him off any top 15 GOAT list would qualify.

Eliminate all posters that have done any of this. Give them each a label as one or the other or both (Stan or one or hater of the other). And then conduct polls, have debates, etc with the rest of us.

[FKAri]

I'd also like to clarify, I'm not saying that it's outrageous to consider Magic the "greater"(whatever that means for you) player. But it is outrageous to consider it a consensus fact.

He "surpassed" him in goat talks around the same time Russell mysteriously "surpassed" Wilt in those same debates. The whole ring counting thing became prevalent in the mid to late 90s and shook up alot of fan perspective on things. Just let it sink in that Russell was able to surpass Wilt despite not having played in 20 years.....and Kareem rise to nearly a consensus no.2 in retirement.
This is true as well. Few, if any thought Russell > Wilt in 1970. But once they were both retired and people no longer knew or remembered what it was like going up against them or watching them on the court it started shifting to the guy who had more hardware.

['Toine=MVP]

This is true as well. Few, if any thought Russell > Wilt in 1970. But once they were both retired and people no longer knew or remembered what it was like going up against them or watching them on the court it started shifting to the guy who had more hardware.

I think this is right. People at the time are always going to be a better judge of "greatness" of the players they have really seen. I do think over time, we can look back and see in some narrow cases times where players might have been a bit overblown in the past though. This is actually why I hate when people rank Kareem so high. It just doesn't make sense.

[sdot_thadon]

I'd also like to clarify, I'm not saying that it's outrageous to consider Magic the "greater"(whatever that means for you) player. But it is outrageous to consider it a consensus fact.

This is true as well. Few, if any thought Russell > Wilt in 1970. But once they were both retired and people no longer knew or remembered what it was like going up against them or watching them on the court it started shifting to the guy who had more hardware.
Right, and the hardware counting taking centerstage is the worst thing to happen to basketball debate. Things have been completely dumbed down since.

[mr4speed]

Right, and the hardware counting taking centerstage is the worst thing to happen to basketball debate. Things have been completely dumbed down since.

Yes, and the ring counting has been the reason players now form "super teams" thinking they will have no legacy if they have no rings. Didn't Karl Malone play for the Lakers before he retired? I remember thinking to myself, even if he won a ring with LA, it would tarnish his image after all the years with Utah IMO.

[imdaman99]

Mets :(

Poor Luigi. Wonder if Mario lets him hit up princess peach once in a while, used goods.

[Horatio33]

Thread full of triggered whites

[ArbitraryWater]

Yeah, makes no sense to say Bird is cleary behind Magic..

its a 50/50 thing so that thread makes no sense.