The Narrative that Dirk won a ring by himself...

[Im so nba'd out]

Jason Terry (6 man of the year)
JJ Barea (LeBron James Stopper remember?)
Jason Kidd (Hall of famer)
Shawn Marion (future hall of famer)
Tyson Chandler (DPOY, Future hall of famer)
Peja (future hall of famer)
Corey Brewer (Former #1 highschool player in the country)
Steve Novak (historic 3 point shooter)
Caron Butler INJURED (All Star)
DeShawn Stevenson (50% 3 point shooter during the playoffs that year)


never compare his ring to Hakeem's 1st ring

[superduper]

Yet if that was Bran's team they would all be washed up minimum vets for some reason right?

Pathetic :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Nobody with a brain thinks any player has ever won by himself.

Couldn't agree more with the post...Steve Novak made a ton of big shots in the playoffs en route to the title.

[superduper]

Imagine bigging up Steve Novak as a historic 3pt shooter when Bran has had Ray Allen and Kyle Korver :roll:

[highwhey]

yep, very heavily stacked team. the heat were at a HUGE disadvantage from the start, meanwhile old man dirk got carried by his stacked hall of famer supporting cast. asterisk ring.

[Bankaii]

Imagine bigging up Steve Novak as a historic 3pt shooter when Bran has had Ray Allen and Kyle Korver :roll:
The thread is about Dirk but you

[warriorfan]

Yet if that was Bran's team they would all be washed up minimum vets for some reason right?

Pathetic :facepalm

:roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

grasping at straws with the black>white rhetoric


steve novak? what steve novak? Lmao

he didnt play.

butler didnt play so why are you mentioning him? lmao

marion and chandler are not future hof's.

you're left with a good vet in kidd, a 6th man TYPE (he wasnt 6th man) in terry, good rim protection (chandler), swifty slick PG play by barea, nice shooting all around, couple of good defenders (marion, stevenson).

good team, nothing special.

he won without an all-star, or all nba'er.

[3ball]

.
According to professional statisticians, Dirk's cast played the worst of any cast that won the Finals, with Hakeem's 94' cast coming in 2nd and Jordan's 91' and 93' casts coming in after that:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/

[jstern]

Let's be honest, the Mavs took down a super team, that had LeBron James and Dwayne Wade teaming up with Chris Bosch to guarantee themselves a championship. But the Mavs wouldn't had won anything if it wasn't for one of the biggest choke jobs in professional sports history.

[DMAVS41]

.
According to professional statisticians, Dirk's cast played the worst of any cast that won the Finals, with Hakeem's 94' cast coming in 2nd and Jordan's 91' and 93' casts coming in after that:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/

No, that isn't what it is.

It is not based on how they played in the Finals. It is based on a variant of plus/minus over a few years to get a talent rating of the help.

And Hakeem's 94 cast actually has a worse teammate rating than Dirk's if you look at the chart.

But, I'm assuming you disagree with this as the 14 Heat have one of the lower teammate ratings and you've claimed they should have won easily because Lebron had a ton of help.

So...:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

No, that isn't what it is.

It is not based on how they played in the Finals. It is based on a variant of plus/minus over a few years to get a talent rating of the help.

And Hakeem's 94 cast actually has a worse teammate rating than Dirk's if you look at the chart.

But, I'm assuming you disagree with this as the 14 Heat have one of the lower teammate ratings and you've claimed they should have won easily.

So...:confusedshrug:
I infact don't believe in the list and think it's a complete crock - but it's a list that many others have touted, so I still post it because it shows that MJ won with 2 of the weakest casts ever.

regarding the 14' cast, you obviously can't accept the conclusion of our last argument - that Lebron's narrow skillset (no off-ball, no post dominance, slow decision-style) doesn't apply more pressure than it's facing at the championship level, so opponent are always fresher with more capacity to go off (aka 14' Finals).. Losing the attrition battle is the end result of all the problems with "Lebron-ball" (low ball movement, teammate marginalization, solvable brand).

[DMAVS41]

I infact don't believe in the list and think it's a complete crock - but it's a list that many others have touted, so I still post it because it shows that MJ won with 2 of the weakest casts ever.

regarding the 14' cast, you obviously can't accept the conclusion of our last argument - that Lebron's narrow skillset (no off-ball, no post dominance, slow decision-style) doesn't apply more pressure than it's facing at the championship level, so opponent are always fresher with more capacity to go off (aka 14' Finals).. Losing the attrition battle is the end result of all the problems with "Lebron-ball" (low ball movement, teammate marginalization, solvable brand).

Up until now...you didn't even know what that analysis was. You thought it was how well the supporting cast played in the Finals...and that is not what it is.

So, again, you were...until you read my post...ignorant of what is actually being rated.

Sure, "Lebron-ball" has its pros and cons...and some of them were on display in the 14 Finals.

Problem is...the defense was the biggest problem and Lebron's teammates weren't nearly as good as you claim.

As always, I'll trust something objective over your ranting and raving...often steeped in ignorance.

[bigkingsfan]

.
According to professional statisticians, Dirk's cast played the worst of any cast that won the Finals, with Hakeem's 94' cast coming in 2nd and Jordan's 91' and 93' casts coming in after that:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/
It also said the 1996 Bulls are the most stacked ever, the 97 and 98 also in the top 7. Pippen and the rest of the Bulls were trash though...

[Doranku]

He took out Kobe/Gasol, Durant/Westbrook/Harden, and Bran/Wade/Bosh with Jason Terry and Jason Kidd's corpse and people wanna say the title is "overstated". :lol

Absolutely nobody gave the Mavs a chance to win the title that year. Nobody. Not at the beginning of the year, not before the playoffs, not even before the finals.

27/8/3 on 45/44/89 against the Blazers
25/9/3 on 57/73/94 (:biggums: ) against the Lakers
32/6/3 on 56/36/97 against the Thunder
26/10/2 on 42/37/98 against the Heat

Dude shot 46% from 3 and 94% from the line over 21 games in the playoffs. He was simply unguardable that year and deserves all the credit in the world for beating juggernaut after juggernaut with a (relatively) mediocre supporting cast.

[SouBeachTalents]

It also said the 1996 Bulls are the most stacked ever, the 97 and 98 also in the top 7. Pippen and the rest of the Bulls were trash though...
Let's see that nigguh scramble with this one :lol

[3ball]

It also said the 1996 Bulls are the most stacked ever, the 97 and 98 also in the top 7. Pippen and the rest of the Bulls were trash though...
that's why it's garbage - the list simply measures how well a team played, not how talented they were

it's really a measure of teamwork more than anything

[stalkerforlife]

No, the narrative is true.

But you're wrong about the actual narrative.

The actual narrative is Dirk and role players beat the most stacked and heavily favored team in the NBA. Not 1, 2, 3, 4...(Throw in choking gestures from Bran and TranWade)

Truth is truth.

[DMAVS41]

that's why it's garbage - the list simply measures how well a team played, not how talented they were

it's really a measure of teamwork more than anything

But in the other thread you just started to hate on Lebron...the information you use....also claims Jordan had 4 of the 10 most talented teams ever.

:cheers:

[3ball]

But in the other thread you just started to hate on Lebron...the information you use....also claims Jordan had 4 of the 10 most talented teams ever.

:cheers:
no, the list measures teamwork, not talent - re-read my post

[DMAVS41]

no, the list measures teamwork, not talent - re-read my post

No, it measures on paper talent.

And you are trying to use it against Lebron in 2015 because you are so fueled by hate that you forgot Kyrie/Love were injured in the Finals.

:roll:

[3ball]

No, it measures on paper talent.

And you are trying to use it against Lebron in 2015 because you are so fueled by hate that you forgot Kyrie/Love were injured in the Finals.

:roll:
no, the supporting cast list posted in this thread measures teamwork

like you said, it's the "variant of plus/minus over a few years to get a talent rating of the help" - that's a measure of how well they played, aka teamwork

otoh, the projection of BPM in the other thread is a measure of on-paper talent, as it's titled - you guys just like making up your own shit when you've been proven wrong, aka denial

[DMAVS41]

no, the supporting cast list posted in this thread measures teamwork

like you said, it's the "variant of plus/minus over a few years to get a talent rating of the help" - that's a measure of how well they played, aka teamwork

otoh, the projection of BPM in the other thread is a measure of on-paper talent, as it's titled - you guys just like making up your own shit when you've been proven wrong, aka denial

We were talking about the other one...as I said....the other one you posted in the other thread.

This one doesn't measure teamwork...it measures how good the players were based off plus/minus over a few years.

Again, up until a few minutes ago before I educated you...you didn't know what it meant. You thought it was about how well a supporting cast played in the Finals. That is wrong. And you thought Hakeem had more help than Dirk based on the rating...and that was wrong.

Sorry, try again.

[3ball]

We were talking about the other one...as I said....the other one you posted in the other thread.

This one doesn't measure teamwork...it measures how good the players were based off plus/minus over a few years.


^^^ that's teamwork

and that's what I originally said - it's a measure of how well Dirk's cast played - you refuted that with your definition above, which is the same thing I said - teamwork





Again, up until a few minutes ago before I educated you...you didn't know it meant. You thought it was about how well a supporting cast played in the Finals. That is wrong. And you thought Hakeem had more help than Dirk based on the rating...and that was wrong.

Sorry, try again.
no I offered simpler version of what you said - you don't realize that what you said = teamwork

I just understand the game at a much higher level, so I can describe it in simpler terms than you - I have a better grasp of what i'm talking about, hence the simpler terms.. that's by design

[DMAVS41]

Defining what you are saying as "teamwork" is absurd...especially when the ratings for many of the players are going to be in different circumstances.

You, like usual, don't know what you are talking about.

But, you posted something like it should matter...in fact, you've done it twice in the last few minutes...and both show the opposite if what you argue daily on here.

So, take the L...or carry on...:rockon:

[3ball]

Defining what you are saying as "teamwork" is absurd...especially when the ratings for many of the players are going to be in different circumstances.

You, like usual, don't know what you are talking about.

But, you posted something like it should matter...in fact, you've done it twice in the last few minutes...and both show the opposite if what you argue daily on here.

So, take the L...or carry on...:rockon:
the list measures teamwork - how well these guys play with each other - aka, on-off

learn the game

otherwise i'll keep destroying you

[bigkingsfan]

So now Dirk's and Hakeem not only has the worst supporting cast, but they also had no teamwork but still won the finals. :roll:

[tpols]

But in the other thread you just started to hate on Lebron...the information you use....also claims Jordan had 4 of the 10 most talented teams ever.

:cheers:


Im guessing those 4 teams were late bulls teams that had developed dynasty chemistry and comraderie.

That s exactly why Dirk won too. Their team work & chemistry was incredible.

Shows team hopping is overrated.

[tontoz]

Shawn Marion made a total of 4 All-Star games in his career, the last being in 2007.

Jason Kidd was 37. At that point he was just a standstill 3 pt shooter making 34% of his 3s. Aside from that he literally couldn't score, averaging 8ppg in 33 minutes. He retired 2 years later.

Jason Terry was Scary Terry only to Lebron, never making an All-Star team. He was 33.

[DMAVS41]

the list measures teamwork - how well these guys play with each other - aka, on-off

learn the game

otherwise i'll keep destroying you

So the 11 Mavs had terrible teamwork?

[3ball]

So the 11 Mavs had terrible teamwork?
the cast apparently played like shit together

[DMAVS41]

the cast apparently played like shit together

Interesting.

Or, could it be, that without Dirk on the court...that team just wasn't that good because the other players just weren't that good on their own?

All this juggling just to try and blame Lebron for random things after you post multiple things that make him look good and refute what you say.

[ArbitraryWater]

So the 11 Mavs had terrible teamwork?

Lmao, right to the jugular.


Now he has to lie to himself to keep his world intact.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Jason Terry (6 man of the year)
JJ Barea (LeBron James Stopper remember?)
Jason Kidd (Hall of famer)
Shawn Marion (future hall of famer)
Tyson Chandler (DPOY, Future hall of famer)
Peja (future hall of famer)
Corey Brewer (Former #1 highschool player in the country)
Steve Novak (historic 3 point shooter)
Caron Butler INJURED (All Star)
DeShawn Stevenson (50% 3 point shooter during the playoffs that year)


never compare his ring to Hakeem's 1st ring

Peja was on his last legs. He got blown off the court against OKC and Miami

Deshawn sucked

Caron, Novak and Brewer didnt play in the playoffs

the rotation was basically Dirk, Kidd, Marion, Chandler, Barea, Terry and Haywood:roll:

Terry was one of the worst defenders in the league and a streaky shooter and he was by far Dirks 2nd scoring option

Theres a reason that team went 2-7 without Dirk and they even had Caron for some and lost every one of those games.

They couldnt score 80 at home against the worst defense in the league in the Craptors

offensively its arguably the worst supporting cast ever to win a title. Defensively it was strong but mostly b/c of Kidd, Marion, Chandler and Haywood. Jet, Barea, Deshawn, Peja all sucked or were terrible defenders

Hakeems 94 ring is def the most impressive carryjob ever but 11 Dirk isnt far behind

[knicksman]

Its about quality not quantity. All of them are just role players which are easier to find than superstars. He shouldve 2 if he wasnt rob in 2006. With lebron, you need superstars and you know how much it cost to get them? Just look at davis. Thats why its easier to win with dirk than bron and thus making him the better player.

[dirkdiggler41]

What won them the title was:
1. Dirk - Dirk being dirk.
2. Rick Carlisle - Was very smart with the random zone defense that threw the Heat off because it was not expected and they were not able to adjust. He also and still do run a great offense with a lot of movement and penetration were he get the most out of all players.
3. Veteran leadership - That team had a great basketball IQ, no egos and a ton of experience.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

What won them the title was:
1. Dirk - Dirk being dirk.
2. Rick Carlisle - Was very smart with the random zone defense that threw the Heat off because it was not expected and they were not able to adjust. He also and still do run a great offense with a lot of movement and penetration were he get the most out of all players.
3. Veteran leadership - That team had a great basketball IQ, no egos and a ton of experience.

:roll: @ #2

zone defense wasnt expected? WTF they were running zone all year IIRC ran it more than any other team

hell they ran it in the regular season and shut down Bran in both those games. He couldnt adjust with his limited skillset

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201012200MIA.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201011270DAL.html

[SouBeachTalents]

:roll: @ #2

zone defense wasnt expected? WTF they were running zone all year IIRC ran it more than any other team

hell they ran it in the regular season and shut down Bran in both those games. He couldnt adjust with his limited skillset

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201012200MIA.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201011270DAL.html
Damn, dude didn't crack 25 once in 8 games against the Mavs that year :lol

What's insane though is LeBron took almost as many FT's in that first meeting than he did in the entire Finals

[tpols]

Damn, dude didn't crack 25 once in 8 games against the Mavs that year :lol

What's insane though is LeBron took almost as many FT's in that first meeting than he did in the entire Finals


Goes to show you how effective he'd be against true zone with no 3 seconds. (which is natural basketball)

NBA is a gimmick league that rewards rim runners and showcases athleticism over skill.

[Andrei89]

He took out Kobe/Gasol, Durant/Westbrook/Harden, and Bran/Wade/Bosh with Jason Terry and Jason Kidd's corpse and people wanna say the title is "overstated". :lol

Absolutely nobody gave the Mavs a chance to win the title that year. Nobody. Not at the beginning of the year, not before the playoffs, not even before the finals.

27/8/3 on 45/44/89 against the Blazers
25/9/3 on 57/73/94 (:biggums: ) against the Lakers
32/6/3 on 56/36/97 against the Thunder
26/10/2 on 42/37/98 against the Heat

Dude shot 46% from 3 and 94% from the line over 21 games in the playoffs. He was simply unguardable that year and deserves all the credit in the world for beating juggernaut after juggernaut with a (relatively) mediocre supporting cast.


Absolutely this.

Not only that, he swept the defending champs.

One of the most earned rings in sports history by an individual

[yeaaaman]

.
According to professional statisticians, Dirk's cast played the worst of any cast that won the Finals, with Hakeem's 94' cast coming in 2nd and Jordan's 91' and 93' casts coming in after that:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/

Why are you bringing up stats when that's not important to op

[yeaaaman]

Absolutely this.

Not only that, he swept the defending champs.

One of the most earned rings in sports history by an individual

Yep, I'm really not sure why people are trying to change the narrative now. I personally wouldn't forget that run and the competition he took out on his way to beating the heatles. How many all-time greats did he take out? Oh right it was because of JJ Barrea :facepalm