If you already had a top defense like say, the 18' Celts, 09' Cavs, or 92' Blazers...

[3ball]

.
which player would you prefer?


Kyriem 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 23.9 ppg.. 57.3 ts.. 41% threes.. 89% ft.. 23.0 PER.. 0.181 ws/48.. 2.5 tov
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 19.8 ppg.. 52.4 ts.. 28% threes.. 72% ft.. 19.7 PER.. 0.157 ws/48.. 3.1 tov

Kyriem 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_advanced):. 3.6 obpm.. -0.4 dbpm.. 3.1 bpm.. outplayed league mvp.. hit Finals-winning shot
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_advanced):. 3.1 obpm... 3.6 dbpm.. 6.7 bpm.. outplayed by schrempf.. no winning shots
.

[RRR3]

Meltdown

[3ball]

Meltdown
accept the facts that MJ's defensive help was only 7th during the 1st three-peat (#7 defense) and his offensive help was worst-ever

no one ever won multiple rings with such little help on both sides of the ball

only mj had to be scoring champ to win (worst offensive help*), while only having the #7 defense (worse than his Finals and conference finals opponents)

* 10-30 more than 2nd option in every series

[RRR3]

accept the facts that MJ's defensive help was only 7th during the 1st three-peat (#7 defense) and his offensive help was worst-ever

no one ever won multiple rings with such little help on both sides of the ball

only mj had to be scoring champ to win (worst offensive help), while only having the #7 defense (worse than his Finals and conference finals opponents)
Meltdown.



1-9

[StrongLurk]

Pippen is great in any era.

OTOH, Kyrie would not survive playing in the 90's. It's too physical for a guy like Kyrie.

[FKAri]

Celtics were a top 4 defense in 2018 despite having a literal midget in their starting lineup. They replaced the midget with Kyrie and got WORSE not just as a defensive team but overall. It's a tough decision but I'll go with the top 40 GOAT.

[3ball]

Meltdown.


Pippen didn't offset the Bulls' weak defenders at other positions (no rim protection and weak guards other than mj), so the bulls only had the #7 defense, and therefore worse defense than all ECF opponents and also the 91/92 Finals opponent

so mj won with sub-par defensive help compared to his opponents, and the worst offensive help ever





1-9


that's the kind of argument that would be used against the goat, aka nothing

3 losses as a 8 seed when your peers are missing the playoffs at the same stage (lebron, durant, giannis, curry) is a GOOD thing that boosts him compared to those guys

lebron, durant, giannis, and curry would've been swept if they made it as the 8 seed in those years

[3ball]

Celtics were a top 4 defense in 2018 despite having a literal midget in their starting lineup. They replaced the midget with Kyrie and got WORSE not just as a defensive team but overall. It's a tough decision but I'll go with the top 40 GOAT.
defensive ranking

17' Celtics - 13th (no Kyrie)
18 Celtics - 1st (Kyrie)

[1987_Lakers]

Pippen, he led a team to 55 wins as the top dog. Kyrie is a cancer, every team gets better when he is injured.

[3ball]

Pippen is great in any era.

OTOH, Kyrie would not survive playing in the 90's. It's too physical for a guy like Kyrie.
the worst kind of player in this era is a weak-shooting non-scorer, and that's Pippen

his bricklaying wouldn't work in today's game and he'd be Andre Roberson today

[3ball]

Pippen, he led a team to 55 wins as the top dog. Kyrie is a cancer, every team gets better when he is injured.
the system won 55 games.. pippen and his garbage 14' Wade production didn't do shit

there's never been an 18/5 player that was perceived as high as Pippen, the biggest system player ever behind Draymond

pippen's stats were trash, and so was his game... a total bricklayer with 10+ series that he disappeared from (15 on 33-40%)

[RRR3]

the system won 55 games.. pippen and his garbage 14' Wade production didn't do shit

there's never been an 18/5 player that was perceived as high as Pippen, the biggest system player ever behind Draymond

pippen's stats were trash, and so was his game... a total bricklayer with 10+ series that he disappeared from (15 on 33-40%)
You throw a tantrum whenever someone brings up Pippen winning 55 games without MJ. Clearly a sore subject for ya.

[FKAri]

defensive ranking

17' Celtics - 13th (no Kyrie)
18 Celtics - 1st (Kyrie)
DRTG:
2018 Boston: 2nd
2019 Boston: 6th
MJ PP: 1-9

[3ball]

You throw a tantrum whenever someone brings up Pippen winning 55 games without MJ. Clearly a sore subject for ya.
not at all - anyone can look at the roster and see it lacked talent - that's common knowledge - so the team won via teamwork, aka the system

but keep being ignorant.. and sounding like it too... it's fun educating you guys... it's 3ball school.. hope you're taking notes.. there will be a quiz later

[Real Men Wear Green]

I realize that OP doesn't like to watch basketball but surely he must realize that we just saw Kyrie Irving with the 2018 Celtics and it didn't go all that well.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball wilding out at the nursing home :oldlol:

[3ball]

3ball wilding out at the nursing home :oldlol:
it's a simple question that you can't answer

pippen wasn't considered anything in the 90's

don't make me start posting quotes of what people thought of pippen in the 90's

he was only good for the #7 defense (he didn't offset the weak rim protection or unathletic guards), and he was the worst offensive help ever

[bigkingsfan]

pippen wasn't considered anything in the 90's

He was named the top 50 player of all time in 96 :oldlol:

[RRR3]

not at all - anyone can look at the roster and see it lacked talent - that's common knowledge - so the team won via teamwork, aka the system

but keep being ignorant.. and sounding like it too... it's fun educating you guys... it's 3ball school.. hope you're taking notes.. there will be a quiz later
More like they won because Pippen is one of the best ever.

[AirBonner]

He was named the top 50 player of all time in 96 :oldlol:
Yikes 3ball in shambles :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

He was named the top 50 player of all time in 96 :oldlol:
other rankings see him outside the top 200

[AirBonner]

other rankings see him outside the top 200
He is consensus top 50.

[RRR3]

other rankings see him outside the top 200
Name a single legitimate ranking that has him outside the top 200 you babbling madman.

[bigkingsfan]

other rankings see him outside the top 200
"selected by a blue-ribbon panel of media, former players and coaches, current and former general managers and team executives." :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

He is consensus top 50.
anyone with 2 eyes can see that Ingram is far superior

[StrongLurk]

the worst kind of player in this era is a weak-shooting non-scorer, and that's Pippen

his bricklaying wouldn't work in today's game and he'd be Andre Roberson today

Pippen is great in any era.

OTOH, Kyrie would not survive playing in the 90's. It's too physical for a guy like Kyrie.

[3ball]

More like they won because Pippen is one of the best ever.

the system and 6 rings prop him up and his shit stats - but here's the consensus on Pippen


Shaquille O'Neal:

"You did okay, but MJ did most of the work"

"Remember I WAS BATMAN YOU WAS ROBIN , I was PUFFY YOU WAS MASE"

"See what happens when Michael Jordan ain't protecting you, you lose a 17 pt lead in the fourth quarter." (referring to 2000 WCF Game 7)



Bill Laimbeer:


"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s




Phil Jackson:


"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not TIME yet."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s

This was Phil Jackson during a huddle in the 1991 NBA Finals, showing how the everyday game plan was to leave Michael alone and let him do everything down the stretch of games.




Chuck Daly:


"It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s




Horace Grant:


"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s



Reporter Pat O'Brien confirms that Chuck Daly's championship defense was about stopping 1 guy via the "Jordan Rules":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=3m27s




Bill Laimbeer:


"The Jordan Rules were just stop him, because no one else could beat you on that ballclub"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=1m22s




Scottie Pippen:


"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s

This was Pippen in the Bad Boys documentary ADMITTING he the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7 - this cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals and the ring - (Bulls would've beaten Blazers - Blazers only took Pistons 6, while Bulls took then 7.




Dumars and Isiah:


"Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)".

"Dumars and i were on the phone for HOURS, talking about 23 in red."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s

This was Dumars' and Isiah's reaction to the Bulls taking 2-1 series lead in 1989 ECF after MJ hit GW over Rodman.




and Isiah said that the 1993 Bulls were all MJ and a 1-man team (he says it after Magic talks):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s

[Kblaze8855]

Assuming you mean to add to the teams as they were....the Celtics and blazers obviously take Pippen and the Cavs would have to consider it too. If they knew what we knew now about Kyrie not exactly meshing well?

All 3 take Pippen.

Why take Kyrie when you have IT(pre injury I assume) and a hole on the wing?

Why take Kyrie when you have peak Terry porter giving guys like Stockton 40 in the playoffs? You sit down Kersey before Porter.

The Cavs thrives off chemistry too. Pippen fits in better than Kyrie. Kyrie is gonna be a solid go to scorer when you need a basket but if that made his teams win....I think he would have won more than he has in a few situations.

The teams that take Kyrie over Pippen exist...but not these.

Think maybe....the early 2000 Pacers with some combo of Artest, Jalen, Jackson and Reggie on the wing with great D and Tinsley at the point.

Maybe thrown Kyrien in there.

Most nba coaches wouldn

[RRR3]

Name a single legitimate ranking that has him outside the top 200 you babbling madman.
3ball?

[RRR3]

the system and 6 rings prop him up and his shit stats - but here's the consensus on Pippen


Shaquille O'Neal:

"You did okay, but MJ did most of the work"

"Remember I WAS BATMAN YOU WAS ROBIN , I was PUFFY YOU WAS MASE"

"See what happens when Michael Jordan ain't protecting you, you lose a 17 pt lead in the fourth quarter." (referring to 2000 WCF Game 7)



Bill Laimbeer:


"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s




Phil Jackson:


"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not TIME yet."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s

This was Phil Jackson during a huddle in the 1991 NBA Finals, showing how the everyday game plan was to leave Michael alone and let him do everything down the stretch of games.




Chuck Daly:


"It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s




Horace Grant:


"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s



Reporter Pat O'Brien confirms that Chuck Daly's championship defense was about stopping 1 guy via the "Jordan Rules":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=3m27s




Bill Laimbeer:


"The Jordan Rules were just stop him, because no one else could beat you on that ballclub"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=1m22s




Scottie Pippen:


"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s

This was Pippen in the Bad Boys documentary ADMITTING he the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7 - this cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals and the ring - (Bulls would've beaten Blazers - Blazers only took Pistons 6, while Bulls took then 7.




Dumars and Isiah:


"Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)".

"Dumars and i were on the phone for HOURS, talking about 23 in red."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s

This was Dumars' and Isiah's reaction to the Bulls taking 2-1 series lead in 1989 ECF after MJ hit GW over Rodman.




and Isiah said that the 1993 Bulls were all MJ and a 1-man team (he says it after Magic talks):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s
Isiah also said LeBron is the GOAT.

:applause:

[RRR3]

anyone with 2 eyes can see that Ingram is far superior
permaban time.

[3ball]

Assuming you mean to add to the teams as they were....the Celtics and blazers obviously take Pippen and the Cavs would have to consider it too. If they knew what we knew now about Kyrie not exactly meshing well?

All 3 take Pippen.

Why take Kyrie when you have IT(pre injury I assume) and a hole on the wing?

Why take Kyrie when you have peak Terry porter giving guys like Stockton 40 in the playoffs? You sit down Kersey before Porter.

The Cavs thrives off chemistry too. Pippen fits in better than Kyrie. Kyrie is gonna be a solid go to scorer when you need a basket but if that made his teams win....I think he would have won more than he has in a few situations.

The teams that take Kyrie over Pippen exist...but not these.

Think maybe....the early 2000 Pacers with some combo of Artest, Jalen, Jackson and Reggie on the wing with great D and Tinsley at the point.

Maybe thrown Kyrien in there.

Most nba coaches wouldn’t hesitate to take Pippen though.

Pippen is the type coaches salivate over. Coaches don’t care about fancy handles and such the way fans do. 10 minutes of tape of the 2 on defense 95% would pick Pippen.

Luckily that wouldn’t be an issue with the early 2000 pacers because of Isiah coaching. The Pippen hater would help you out here. Their beef is eternal.
pippen's marginal production and performance was magnified by being in the winning spotlight - otherwise, tons of guys played solid defense and averaged 18 ppg

any decent defender that could average 18 ppg in the triangle would've done everything pippen did - win 6 chips, get a bunch of all-defense and see his stature inflated beyond belief by the winning spotlight

But even the guy that PICKED him knew the deal (quote posted below) - I'll take his word over your babbling






Assuming you mean to add to the teams as they were....the Celtics and blazers obviously take Pippen and the Cavs would have to consider it too. If they knew what we knew now about Kyrie not exactly meshing well?

All 3 take Pippen



the guy that picked Pippen:


JERRY KRAUSE, Bulls GM:



“Would Pippen have been great someplace else?

Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him... No.... Michael made him a man.

Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And he - Collins - he had Michael beat on him (Pippen) every day in practice and Michael beat him to death."

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558


are you guys going to argue with the guy that PICKED him?.... :biggums: ..:coleman:

[3ball]

Isiah also said LeBron is the GOAT.

:applause:
when Isiah talked about the 93' Bulls, he was recounting the historical record

his comments on lebron were subjective opinion and don't matter

[RRR3]

Name a single legitimate ranking that has him outside the top 200 you babbling madman.
Why are you desperately dodging this, 3ball?

[Kblaze8855]

Nothing there has anything to do with Pippen or Kyrie. And If you were an actual bulls fan at the time you would know Jerry was always defense first. Back to his days as a scout he was a defensive minded guy. He....like most serious basketball fans.....factors defense heavily. Defense length and athletic ability. That guy wouldn

[Kblaze8855]

“What I wanted was another great athlete,” Krause told The Vertical of drafting Pippen. “I think defensively so much. My mind is so much geared, going all the way back … I’ve always been defense-oriented. What I saw in Pippen was a chance to be a great defensive player. I saw a guy with long arms and quick feet and big hands and all the things — who couldn’t shoot. He was not a good shooter. Now, when I first saw Michael Jordan, he wasn’t a good shooter either. Shooting can be improved. It’s a skill, it can be worked at. What I saw in Pippen was a guy that could guard ones, twos, threes and fours, and I fell in love with that.”

^
That guy....is not taking Kyrie over Pippen.

[3ball]

Why are you desperately dodging this, 3ball?
you guys have dodged everything i posted

and who cares about dumb groupthink rankings that rate pippen's rudimentary skillset over Ingram's

im talking about Shaq's ranking (he said MJ did everything)... or laimbeer's ranking (he said they didn't even think about Pippen)... or Isiah's ranking (said the 93' bulls were a 1-man team)

but go ahead and follow the group think... you'll always be wrong tho (Ingram) and I'll always be right

[RRR3]

you guys have dodged everything i posted

and who cares about dumb groupthink rankings that rate pippen's rudimentary skillset over Ingram's

im talking about Shaq's ranking (he said MJ did everything)... or laimbeer's ranking (he said they didn't even think about Pippen)... or Isiah's ranking (said the 93' bulls were a 1-man team)

but go ahead and follow the group think... you'll always be wrong tho (Ingram) and I'll always be right
Name 100 players you’d take over Pippen. Shouldn’t be hard since he’s not even top 200, right?

[3ball]

^
That guy....is not taking Kyrie over Pippen.
re-read the thread title - krause's team already has a top defense - better than the 1st three-peat bulls ever had with Pippen

so yeah - he's taking Kyrie hands-down - look at the OP stats

and heck, MJ already had goat offenses despite pippen's bricklaying and choking, so imagine what he'd do with Kyrie's spacing and closing... :eek:

[Kblaze8855]

The bulls told him to go get a scorer to help MJ but he drafts Pippen and Horace over Reggie Miller because he’s so fiercely defense first....

But he would draft a scoring point over an all time defender for 3 teams 2 of which had all star points capable of dropping 40 and the third a borderline all star and a team that thrives on chemistry. You can justify taking Kyrie and making Mo a 6th man. Pre Injury IT and Terry porter aren’t being benched for Kyrie with a HOF all around wing there for the taking.

And these 3 coaches are Mike Dunleavy, Mike Brown, and Brad Stevens. Do you know anything about these people in question?

These are not the people you ask about taking a Kyrie type over a Pippen type.

Google Brad Stevens defensive dna for a good read that might tell you where his head is. And Mike Brown? Have you ever heard that guy discuss basketball? Do you have any idea how defensive minded he is?

Not that I expect you care about such factors. That would be too reasonable.

Coaches want defense. Coaches never think they have enough defense. Given the choice between adding a 18-20 ppg all time defender or an elite one on one scorer who doesn’t play much d for teams that already have stars at his position?

Be for real. You picked bad teams for your example.

I’m not sure I’d take Kyrie over Terry porter period for a team that spread the ball around like the blazers....

[superduper]

If a team was chalk full with defenders you would clearly take the dominant clutch scoring guard.