Players with 8+ apg are suboptimal and don't win as much as 4-7 apg guys

[3ball]

4-7 apg guys

Curry
MJ
Kobe
Kawhi
Durant


8+ apg guys

nash
cp3
lebron
westbrook
harden



The first group wins a lot more, so APG is overrated

high APG from 1 player often means low team apg and a low ball movement brand

otoh, being a scoring assassin that gets 4-7 apg seems to result in the best teams and be more optimal.... :confusedshrug:

high APG from 1 player is massively overrated - APG means nothing on an individual level... it only matters on a team level.
.

[PeroAntic]

Not to shit on your agenda but Magic won four rings with 10+ assists...

[Smoke117]

1-9

[3ball]

Not to shit on your agenda but Magic won four rings with 10+ assists...
We're only talking about guys that were considered the best on their own team

those were Kareem's teams and he has the higher all-time ranking... so Magic isn't a viable example.

try again

but you won't find any examples without team-hopping

the only example of a ball-dominator winning is lebron - but he needed to team-hop for multiple stars/unfair advantage

again, high APG from 1 guy is completely overrated and usually relies on them dribbling the ball forever, which isn't winning basketball... so they don't win without team-hopping... and it still mostly loses, aka 3/9

[LoneyROY7]

Harden and Russ about to capsize your agenda when 2 ball-dominators win it on the same team.

:pimp: :pimp:

[Smoke117]

Harden and Russ about to capsize your agenda when 2 ball-dominators win it on the same team.

:pimp: :pimp:

I bet you honestly believe this, too. :oldlol: Rockets have zero chance in hell of winning anything.

[PeroAntic]

We're only talking about guys that were considered the best on their own team

those were Kareem's teams and he has the higher all-time ranking... so Magic isn't a viable example.

try again

but you won't find any examples without team-hopping

the only example of a ball-dominator winning is lebron - but he needed to team-hop for multiple stars/unfair advantage

again, high APG from 1 guy is completely overrated and usually relies on them dribbling the ball forever, which isn't winning basketball... so they don't win without team-hopping... and it still mostly loses, aka 3/9
It was Magic's team in 87 and 88.. Kareem was on his last legs... Also Isiah Thomas won next year with 8+ assists. Doubling down on bs is never a good idea.

[PeroAntic]

Harden and Russ about to capsize your agenda when 2 ball-dominators win it on the same team.

:pimp: :pimp:
https://media.giphy.com/media/pXT3CsBO15Wlq/giphy.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

An 8+ assist caliber guy kicked Jordan

[post]

isiah thomas averaged over 8 assists both times detroit won a championship

bob cousy won 6 championships and averaged well over 8 assists

[LoneyROY7]

I bet you honestly believe this, too. :oldlol: Rockets have zero chance in hell of winning anything.

Good thing we ain't in hell, baby boi. :pimp:

[Kblaze8855]

We're only talking about guys that were considered the best on their own team

those were Kareem's teams and he has the higher all-time ranking... so Magic isn't a viable example.

try again

but you won't find any examples without team-hopping

the only example of a ball-dominator winning is lebron - but he needed to team-hop for multiple stars/unfair advantage

again, high APG from 1 guy is completely overrated and usually relies on them dribbling the ball forever, which isn't winning basketball... so they don't win without team-hopping... and it still mostly loses, aka 3/9



Few weeks ago....



Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years)

But now AD has his Magic; he has his Oscar, just like Kareem did.. A ring is automatic barring injuries..

But this sheds light on the historical rankings - given this apparent dynamic (that AD and Kareem's teams are only as good as the guys getting them the ball), Kareem should certainly rank below Magic, and historic PG's like Magic and Oscar are more valuable than any big man not named Wilt or Shaq, whose physical dominance controlled games.

However, even though historic PG's have good teams without a dominant big man, they still seem to need an all-time big man to win a championship, while 2-way assassin-style players with scoring versatility, aka MJ, Kobe and even Kawhi seem immune from this need.

So to me, 2-way assassins with scoring versatility (MJ, Kobe) are the goats because they seemed to need the least help... So they're in the top 3 for me.. the historic PG's are next in line, with goat physical forces Wilt and Shaq coming next.. Kareem comes AFTER all these guys, and ahead of team-hoppers/super-team seekers Durant and Lebron..


1) MJ
2) Bird
3) Kobe
4) Magic
5) Wilt
6) Shaq
7) Kareem
8) Duncan (seriously considering Duncan over Kareem)
9) Russell
10) Oscar
11) Lebron
12) Dr. J
13) Durant





Anyway.....


Jordan in today’s league with all these shooters to kick out to after he walked into the lane at will?

Hed be an 8+ assist guy.

He’d be playing with 4 shooters. Only way to hold his assists down would be to play him straight and let him give you 40 something.

[3ball]

It was Magic's team in 87 and 88.. Kareem was on his last legs... Also Isiah Thomas won next year with 8+ assists. Doubling down on bs is never a good idea.
Magic wasn't the highest rated player on his own team - Kareem is rated higher... And you're seeking exceptions to the rule, which proves the rule

only 5 times in the last 30 years did a player win the championship while averaging 8+ apg in the regular season, playoffs OR Finals:

- Jordan 91' Finals (11.2)
- Lebron 16' Finals (8.9)
- Lowry 19' RS (8.7)
- Draymond 18' PO (8.1)
- Kidd 11' RS (8.3)

^^^ That's barely anyone over a 30-year period of RS, PO, or Finals..

So timely scoring > high APG.... high APG from 1 guys is completely overrated - it never made sense for 1 guy to dribble anyway, so it's intuitive and nothing ground-breaking.

it's clear that versatile, timely scoring that lets teammates maximize role/production and only scores when needed > ball-dominant assists that reduce teammates' role and impact

Hope that helps..

[SouBeachTalents]

The most hilarious thing about these lists is, besides Jordan

LeBron's won more titles as his teams best player than anybody else on that first list

In addition to averaging more apg, he averages more ppg in the playoffs than most of those dudes too, and just literally .2 ppg off from Durant's average

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why is Lebron in that "suboptimal" category? Jordan aside, he has more Final MVPs than everyone in your OP.

[SouBeachTalents]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Few weeks ago....








Anyway.....


Jordan in today

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Few weeks ago....

Poor bastard :oldlol: :oldlol:

[jlip]

Players who lead the league in scoring are suboptimal and don't win as much as others. It has only been accomplished by three players in NBA history.

[3ball]

Few weeks ago....








Anyway.....


Jordan in today’s league with all these shooters to kick out to after he walked into the lane at will?

Hed be an 8+ assist guy.

He’d be playing with 4 shooters. Only way to hold his assists down would be to play him straight and let him give you 40 something.
Jordan wouldn't average 8 apg because he'd be averaging 45 ppg…

his stats would be 45/7/6 or something like that - basically the same as Harden's but add 5-7 more ppg

another reason MJ wouldn't average 8 apg is because it's a proven loser - look at history - only 5 times in the last 30 years did a player win the championship while averaging 8+ apg in the regular season, playoffs OR Finals - that's barely anyone over a 30-year period of RS, PO, or Finals..

So timely scoring > high APG... See the OP - all the 4-7 apg players win far more than the 8+ guys.... high APG from 1 guy is completely overrated - it never made sense for 1 guy to dribble anyway, so it's intuitive and nothing ground-breaking... APG means nothing when comparing players and high APG is infact a knock on a player

[tpols]

Curry averaged 9 dimes under mark Jackson.

When Kerr came in he reliquished his ball dominance for more off ball work.

The result was an immediate dynasty.

[LoneyROY7]

[QUOTE=3ball]Jordan wouldn't average 8 apg because he'd be averaging 45 ppg

[3ball]

So if MJ's line would be the same as Harden but with more PPG, why is Harden on the suboptimal list?

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

1Ball stays switching sidelines.
Harden is averaging 7.6 - that's 8 apg

Harden is on the suboptimal list because he averaged 8+ for several seasons and is the biggest ball-dominator in the league

Even at 38 ppg, he dominates the ball enough to get 8 apg

you cannot refute my main point that high APG is completely overrated - it's actually a KNOCK when a player has high APG - high APG kills championship brand... :confusedshrug:... all the winning happens with timely assassins that average 4-7 apg, not the ball-dominators that kill brand with their 8 apg

[SouBeachTalents]

Harden is averaging 7.6 - that's 8 apg

Harden is on the suboptimal list because he averaged 8+ for several seasons and is the biggest ball-dominator in the league

Even at 38 ppg, he dominates the ball enough to get 8 apg

you cannot refute my main point that high APG is completely overrated - it's actually a KNOCK when a player has high APG - high APG kills championship brand... :confusedshrug:... all the winning happens with timely assassins that average 4-7 apg, not the ball-dominators that kill brand with their 8 apg
Yet Magic, who you said was "the at the time GOAT" in '91, won FIVE titles averaging 8+ assists per game. So either you're completely full of shit on that claim, if not, the entire premise of your thread is illegitimate, by your own arguments to boot :lol

[3ball]

Yet Magic, who you said was "the at the time GOAT" in '91, won FIVE titles averaging 8+ assists per game. So either you're completely full of shit on that claim, if not, the entire premise of your thread is illegitimate, by your own arguments to boot :lol
Kareem is the higher rated player all-time - he was the best player on those teams until 1987

regardless, you can only reference exceptions, while I can tout the norm - it's always better to tout the RULE:

most winning happens with timely assassins that average 4-7 apg, not the ball-dominators that kill brand with their 8 apg

:confusedshrug:

it's actually a KNOCK when a player has high APG because it kills championship brand and only wins with a goat big man, or rarely wins by unfairly team-hopping for a 3rd star (that the comp doesn't have)

those are the historical facts - but carry on
.

[post]

Kareem is the higher rated player all-time

regardless, you can only reference exceptions, while I can tout the norm - it's always better to tout the RULE:

most winning happens with timely assassins that average 4-7 apg, not the ball-dominators that kill brand with their 8 apg

:confusedshrug:

it's actually a KNOCK when a player has high APG because it kills championship brand and only wins with a goat big man, or rarely wins by unfairly team-hopping for a 3rd star (that the comp doesn't have)

those are the historical facts - but carry on

isiah thomas didn't have a goat big man or team hop

bob cousy didn't team hop and russell is not a goat caliber big man on offense

kareem is ranked higher than magic by a lot of people but magic was the better player in the 80's when kareem did most of his winning

[3ball]

isiah thomas didn't have a goat big man or team hop

bob cousy didn't team hop and russell is not a goat caliber big man on offense

kareem is ranked higher than magic by a lot of people but magic was the better player in the 80's when kareem did most of his winning
Isiah is an exception and Cousy was 35 years before Isiah

so obviously, winning rings with 8 apg is pretty rare without the goat big man (better teammate) or team-hopping (still mostly loses)…

instead, most winning happens with scoring assassins that get only 4-7 apg… therefore, it's a KNOCK when a player has high APG because it wins less/kills championship brand - it only wins with a goat big man... or rarely wins by team-hopping for a 3rd star

[post]

[QUOTE=3ball]Isiah is an exception and Cousy was 35 years before Isiah

so obviously, winning rings with 8 apg is pretty rare without the goat big man (better teammate) or team-hopping (still mostly loses)

[RealSkipBayless]

Kareem is the higher rated player all-time - he was the best player on those teams until 1987

regardless, you can only reference exceptions, while I can tout the norm - it's always better to tout the RULE:

most winning happens with timely assassins that average 4-7 apg, not the ball-dominators that kill brand with their 8 apg

:confusedshrug:

it's actually a KNOCK when a player has high APG because it kills championship brand and only wins with a goat big man, or rarely wins by unfairly team-hopping for a 3rd star (that the comp doesn't have)

those are the historical facts - but carry on
.
You don't even have Kareem in your top 5.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I'm confused. Lebron's playoff career average is 7.1 assists per game, career regular season average is 7.3 per game, so isn't he in the 4-7 group, not the 8+ group. Or are we 3ball rounding where 7.1 rounds to 8.

--

Anyway:
Team lacks talent --> Star does more --> team ultimately fails --> conclusion: star needs to do less.

[Insert Jennifer Lawrence GIF]

[3ball]

kawhi and curry's first championship were 23 and 24 years after jordan's first while isiah's first was 32 years after cousy's first. seems arbitrary to not count cousy


Wade won in 06' with 4-7 assists

Kobe won in 09'

Dirk won in 11'

Duncan won in 99' and 03'

Pierce won in 08'


again, most winning happens with timely scorers that get only 4-7 apg… therefore, it's a KNOCK when a player has high APG because it wins less/kills championship brand - it only wins with a goat big man... or rarely wins by team-hopping for a 3rd star






as for team hopping, if we are going to go with the idea it's a negative, durant and curry really shouldn't be considered great winners. durant wins nothing without running to golden state and curry recruited him which is not significantly different than team hopping


agreed

lebron ruined the whole era

it's like "oh, you're gonna cheat?.. I guess I gotta cheat too"... :facepalm

[PickernRoller]

Op with another easy W.

[3ball]

I'm confused. Lebron's playoff career average is 7.1 assists per game, career regular season average is 7.3 per game, so isn't he in the 4-7 group, not the 8+ group. Or are we 3ball rounding where 7.1 rounds to 8.


no, I only round up 7.6 to 8 because that's what ur supposed to do

and lebron proves the rule - he mostly loses at this assist rate - he won once in 2016 after many attempts and team-hopping both before and after - which makes my point - it's nearly impossible to win with high apg/ball-dominance (aka shit brand)






Anyway:
Team lacks talent --> Star does more --> team ultimately fails --> conclusion: star needs to do less.


lebron gets knocked for missing the Finals in 09' and 10' with casts that others were making it with (aka Dwight)

and lebron gets knocked for only going 3/7 and being perennial loser/underdog with super-teams from 11-17'

and all his losing is because he seeks high personal assists over high TEAM assists or ball movement

[SouBeachTalents]

Kareem is the higher rated player all-time - he was the best player on those teams until 1987

regardless, you can only reference exceptions, while I can tout the norm - it's always better to tout the RULE:

most winning happens with timely assassins that average 4-7 apg, not the ball-dominators that kill brand with their 8 apg

:confusedshrug:

it's actually a KNOCK when a player has high APG because it kills championship brand and only wins with a goat big man, or rarely wins by unfairly team-hopping for a 3rd star (that the comp doesn't have)

those are the historical facts - but carry on
.
But you literally said, as KBlaze posted

Kareem should certainly rank below Magic, and historic PG's like Magic and Oscar are more valuable than any big man not named Wilt or Shaq, whose physical dominance controlled games.

[Ainosterhaspie]

No one disagrees that ball and player movement is ideal. But what your walnut sized brain seems incapable of grasping is that sometimes, for some teams, there is a better way. Some teams just don't have the personnel and coaching to pull it off. They can only succeed by playing a different way.

And as a general rule this has much more to do with the other players than with the star, since stars tend to be far more skilled and capable of adapting their game as needed. But with role players, they generally can only do certain things well. With the right role players, ball movement works well. With the wrong ones, it's impossible.

But in your microscopic perspective of basketball, only star names matter. Defense, coaching and fit are irrelevant. And the only way to play is the way that has produced the most wins. You would be the worst type of coach imaginable, stubbornly refusing to adapt to the talent your team has because there is only one way to play, and we're playing that way whether the team has the talent for it or not.

[PeroAntic]

Bitch you have five players that are the rule and five players that are the exception. gtfo, I actually do think that ball movement is more beneficial to winning than ballhogging but this is as strawman as it gets.

[bigkingsfan]

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]An 8+ assist caliber guy kicked Jordan

[3ball]

But you literally said, as KBlaze posted
who cares - those are MY rankings

Kareem is universally ranked higher than Magic

again, most winning happens with timely scorers that average 4-7 apg, not the ball-dominators that kill brand with their 8 apg

it's actually a KNOCK when a player has high APG because it kills championship brand and only wins with a goat big man, or rarely wins by unfairly team-hopping for a 3rd star (that the comp doesn't have)

[3ball]

Bitch you have five players that are the rule and five players that are the exception.


what's the ring count of each group?

I rest my case

and I forgot to include guys like 11' Dirk, 06' Wade, 08' Pierce, or 99/03/05 Duncan..

again, most winning happens with timely scorers that average 4-7 apg, not the ball-dominators that kill brand with their 8 apg

it's actually a KNOCK when a player has high APG because it kills championship brand and only wins with a goat big man, or rarely wins by unfairly team-hopping for a 3rd star (that the comp doesn't have)

[post]

[QUOTE=3ball]Wade won in 06' with 4-7 assists

Kobe won in 09'

Dirk won in 11'

Duncan won in 99' and 03'

Pierce won in 08'


again, most winning happens with timely scorers that get only 4-7 apg

[3ball]

wilt averaged 9 assists when the sixers won in 67 (wilt was the goat caliber big man)

walt frazier averaged over 8 assists when the knicks won in 70 ( i wouldn't consider willis reed a goat caliber big man)

bird averaged over 8 assists during his 3rd championship run (no goat caliber big man)
again, you're having to go 10 and 20 years between examples - you're pointing out exceptions, while I pointed out the rule:

most winning occurs with timely scorers that average 4-7 apg - that's the optimal profile that represents the highest skillset (scoring while the ball moves and the team employs a championship brand)

ultimately, it's a KNOCK when a player has high APG because it usually comes at the expense of TEAM assists and higher team ceiling/better brand of ball.

in short, high APG players are selfish - they prefer personal ball-dominance and lesser winning over team ball movement and more winning.

[SouBeachTalents]

what's the ring count of each group?

I rest my case

and I forgot to include guys like 11' Dirk, 06' Wade, 08' Pierce, or 99/03/05 Duncan..

again, most winning happens with timely scorers that average 4-7 apg, not the ball-dominators that kill brand with their 8 apg

it's actually a KNOCK when a player has high APG because it kills championship brand and only wins with a goat big man, or rarely wins by unfairly team-hopping for a 3rd star (that the comp doesn't have)
Those are some horrible examples

Duncan averaged under 3 apg in '99 & '05, ditto Dirk in 2011, those dudes aren't even close to your 4-7 apg threshold.

Duncan won in '99 & '05 averaging 23-24 ppg, Pierce didn't even crack 20, LeBron's never won a title with scoring numbers as low as those :oldlol: So your point makes absolutely no sense

[PeroAntic]

Counting Dirk and Duncan's assists:facepalm

[3ball]

Those are some horrible examples

Duncan averaged under 3 apg in '99 & '05, ditto Dirk in 2011, those dudes aren't even close to your 4-7 apg threshold.

Duncan won in '99 & '05 averaging 23-24 ppg, Pierce didn't even crack 20, LeBron's never won a title with scoring numbers as low as those :oldlol: So your point makes absolutely no sense
makes my case even more - you don't even need 4 apg - timely scoring is the only critical factor.. :eek:

so APG is an overrated stat in general... The team's brand and how the star fits timely scoring into that brand is most important

also, the percentage of team points scored (03' Duncan) or clutch plays that won multiple games (11' Dirk) are scoring aspects that also exceed the importance of assists

[Shogon]

Few weeks ago....








Anyway.....

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[RRR3]

Only Kobe stans like ttrolls and thickerntroller are retarded enough to agree with 3ball :oldlol:

[tpols]

there's too much nuance in play style to make such a declaration cutoff purely on number.

You could have a bird, magic, nash, kidd type who dimes over 8, yet enhances everybody around them.

Feeds them in their spots, encourages them, is timely in their delivery, etc.

Then you could have the harden, westbrook, lebron, john wall types who just pound the rock the whole clock and hot potato it at the end.

You have to differentiate contextually.

[3ball]

there's too much nuance in play style to make such a declaration cutoff purely on number.

You could have a bird, magic, nash, kidd type who dimes over 8, yet enhances everybody around them.

Feeds them in their spots, encourages them, is timely in their delivery, etc.

Then you could have the harden, westbrook, lebron, john wall types who just pound the rock the whole clock and hot potato it at the end.

You have to differentiate contextually.
agree with the bolded 100%

I was just providing a number (8 apg), where there's a lot more winning BELOW that number than above... but it's still an arbitrary cutoff..

the general idea is true however - there's generally a trade-off between personal APG and team APG.. it means nothing that a player gets 10 apg if another player is sacrificing personal assists to win by playing a ball movement brand or system (i.e. curry)

[3ball]

it's like

"oh look, Player X is averaging 10 assists - he's such a great passer"

but what's more important - being a "great passer" or being a guy that can win?

for wing players, getting 4-5 apg is all that's needed... anything more and the player is likely getting assists over brand of ball/winning

furthermore, teams that use 1 main dribbler don't win the attrition battle at the championship level - their dribbling doesn't apply as much pressure as the ball movement they face, so opponents are always fresher to go off (see the Spurs in 14' Finals).. that's why Nash, CP3 and Lebron can't win without team-hopping - their brand loses the attrition battle against good playoff teams, so they need extra talent (team-hopping) to win

[HylianNightmare]

Harden and Russ about to capsize your agenda when 2 ball-dominators win it on the same team.

:pimp: :pimp:

Har

[post]

again, you're having to go 10 and 20 years between examples - you're pointing out exceptions, while I pointed out the rule:

most winning occurs with timely scorers that average 4-7 apg - that's the optimal profile that represents the highest skillset (scoring while the ball moves and the team employs a championship brand)

ultimately, it's a KNOCK when a player has high APG because it usually comes at the expense of TEAM assists and higher team ceiling/better brand of ball.

in short, high APG players are selfish - they prefer personal ball-dominance and lesser winning over team ball movement and more winning.

it could've been less of an exception if bird's and magic's careers weren't cut short

i count 12 examples since 1957 of an 8+ apg player on a championship team with no team hopping and no goat big man on offense to help the 8+ apg player. goes up to 20 if you count 5 for magic, and 1 each for lebron, curry, and draymond of 8+ apg in the playoffs or finals. so your point is accurate as far as it goes. out of 63 championships since 1957 43-51 were won with no 8+ apg player in the playoffs or finals

[post]

it could've been less of an exception if bird's and magic's careers weren't cut short

i count 12 examples since 1957 of an 8+ apg player on a championship team with no team hopping and no goat big man on offense to help the 8+ apg player. goes up to 20 if you count 5 for magic, and 1 each for lebron, curry, and draymond of 8+ apg in the playoffs or finals. so your point is accurate as far as it goes. out of 63 championships since 1957 43-51 were won with no 8+ apg player in the playoffs or finals

oscar robertson in 1971 takes the total to 21. forgot to mention him. so 12 with no team hopping or goat big man and 9 with team hopping or goat big men

[tpols]

furthermore, teams that use 1 main dribbler don't apply as much pressure as the ball movement they face


that should be the thread title.

[tpols]

i think there's a lot that goes into winning a title.

its a whirlwind vacuum of circumstance in a lot of cases, but 3balls right that guys that have some off ball impact tend to promote better teamwork and more winning in the long run.

Winning has very slim margins prone to random error and "luck".

With what little we can influence, he is right in terms of style.

[post]

lebron averages closer to 7 than 8 assists in the regular season and playoffs in his career, so let's adjust the number to 7. 35 out of 63, or 55.5%, of championships since 1957 were won with a player averaging 7 or more assists per game if you include a mix of situations where there was team hopping and goat big men available. 25 out of 63, or 39.6%, were won with a 7+apg player and no goat big man in the sense of a big man that was actually playing like a goat offensive player when the team won. so it's roughly 40% of the time you will win a championship with a 7+apg player with no team hopping and no goat big man. 3ball would still be correct by this standard that it's a minority of the time, but it's a pretty large minority of the time

[SpaceJam2]

I have MJ #2 all time

https://i.postimg.cc/SsdmvMPS/GOATlist-Simple.jpg

[post]

lebron averages closer to 7 than 8 assists in the regular season and playoffs in his career, so let's adjust the number to 7. 35 out of 63, or 55.5%, of championships since 1957 were won with a player averaging 7 or more assists per game if you include a mix of situations where there was team hopping and goat big men available. 25 out of 63, or 39.6%, were won with a 7+apg player and no goat big man in the sense of a big man that was actually playing like a goat offensive player when the team won. so it's roughly 40% of the time you will win a championship with a 7+apg player with no team hopping and no goat big man. 3ball would still be correct by this standard that it's a minority of the time, but it's a pretty large minority of the time

26 out of 63, or 41% of the time, when adding in bird's first championship

[post]

26 out of 63, or 41% of the time, when adding in bird's first championship

could be 24 out of 63 if you count dirk as a goat offensive "big man" but by big man i think of center and dirk neither played center nor played like a center

kareem didn't really play like a goat in 3 out of the 4 series of the 85 playoffs so that's a borderline case in my view

24-26 out of 63 depending on how you classify these cases

[Lebron23]

I have MJ #2 all time

https://i.postimg.cc/SsdmvMPS/GOATlist-Simple.jpg
End thread

[SpaceJam2]

End thread


Thank you :applause:

[3ball]

high apg from 1 player is a play-style choice by the team and doesn't mean someone is a better passer when comparing a 5-7 apg player (mj/kobe) vs lebron (8+ apg) - mj/kobe could've employed a ball-dominant, high assist style, but opted for superior ball movement/winning instead

it's a KNOCK when a player has high APG because it usually comes at the expense of TEAM assists and higher team ceiling/better brand of ball.

in short, high APG players are selfish - they prefer personal ball-dominance and lesser winning over team ball movement and more winning.
.

[Hey Yo]

no, I only round up 7.6 to 8 because that's what ur supposed to do

and lebron proves the rule - he mostly loses at this assist rate - he won once in 2016 after many attempts and team-hopping both before and after - which makes my point - it's nearly impossible to win with high apg/ball-dominance (aka shit brand)




lebron gets knocked for missing the Finals in 09' and 10' with casts that others were making it with (aka Dwight)

and lebron gets knocked for only going 3/7 and being perennial loser/underdog with super-teams from 11-17'

and all his losing is because he seeks high personal assists over high TEAM assists or ball movement
LeBron shot .398% in the 2015 Finals. Ever since then, you've always stated that he shot 39% when talking about those Finals.

So basically you're confirming that James did indeed shoot 40%, correct?

[Hey Yo]

high apg from 1 player is a play-style choice by the team and doesn't mean someone is a better passer when comparing a 5-7 apg player (mj/kobe) vs lebron (8+ apg) - mj/kobe could've employed a ball-dominant, high assist style, but opted for superior ball movement/winning instead

it's a KNOCK when a player has high APG because it usually comes at the expense of TEAM assists and higher team ceiling/better brand of ball.

in short, high APG players are selfish - they prefer personal ball-dominance and lesser winning over team ball movement and more winning.
.
You have any articles or quotes stating how Magic and Stockton were selfish players?

[3ball]

LeBron shot .398% in the 2015 Finals. Ever since then, you've always stated that he shot 39% when talking about those Finals.

So basically you're confirming that James did indeed shoot 40%, correct?
correct

if he shot 50%, he would've beaten the curry warriors easily.. and he should've because he never got doubled!!!... but he sucks at isos because his jumper is broke, so he only shot 40% and lost

[3ball]

You have any articles or quotes stating how Magic and Stockton were selfish players?
I wouldn't call Stockton selfish, just misguided on the right way to play

and magic had the goat center so rings were guaranteed - it didn't matter what he did

but lebron knows better - unfortunately, he lacks the skills to change and win more . so he's resorted to manufacturing his resume via team-hopping for super-teams.. his resume was shit before hopping

[Hey Yo]

correct

if he shot 50%, he would've beaten the curry warriors easily.. and he should've because he never got doubled!!!... but he sucks at isos because his jumper is broke, so he only shot 40% and lost
So why the need to lie for almost 5yrs by saying he shot 39%??

Did someone recently teach you about 'when and when not to' round up?

Was MJ's jumper broke in 96' when he shot 41% against Seattle?

[Hey Yo]

I wouldn't call Stockton selfish, just misguided on the right way to play

and magic had the goat center so rings were guaranteed - it didn't matter what he did

but lebron knows better - unfortunately, he lacks the skills to change and win more . so he's resorted to manufacturing his resume via team-hopping for super-teams.. his resume was shit before hopping
How should have Stockton played differently? Are we talking B2B titles in 97 and 98 for Utah in Stockton played and handled the ball less?


So why is Magic ranked so high if you basically said titles were handed to him?

[bigkingsfan]

Ordan lost to garbage Isiah 39% 8 assist 21 points and 40% 9 assist 18 points in consecutive years.

[3ball]

Ordan lost to garbage Isiah 39% 8 assist 21 points and 40% 9 assist 18 points in consecutive years.
how many teammates did Isiah have that made at least 2 all-star games vs Jordan's teammates?

everyone in the Pistons starting lineup was a 3x all-star (laimbeer, aguirre, dumars, Isiah, rodman), versus only MJ for the bulls

MJ overcame a MASSIVE talent deficit in beating the Pistons and he did it with teamwork, which took several years to develop

[bigkingsfan]

how many teammates did Isiah have that made at least 2 all-star games vs Jordan's teammates?

everyone in the Pistons starting lineup was a 3x all-star (laimbeer, aguirre, dumars, Isiah, rodman), versus only MJ for the bulls

MJ overcame a MASSIVE talent deficit in beating the Pistons and he did it with teamwork, which took several years to develop
Both teams had one all star

https://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_1989.html

No excuses.

[3ball]

So why the need to lie for almost 5yrs by saying he shot 39%??

Did someone recently teach you about 'when and when not to' round up?

Was MJ's jumper broke in 96' when he shot 41% against Seattle?
mj's jumper was never broke because he was a goat shooter - a knock-down, pure shooter

mj shot poorly for 2 games because the refs were letting the helpless, 0-3 Sonics get away with everything

[3ball]

Both teams had one all star

https://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_1989.html

No excuses.
the Pistons roster was basically the East all-stars in 1990

everyone in the Pistons starting lineup was a 3x all-star (laimbeer, aguirre, dumars, Isiah, rodman), versus only MJ for the bulls

[bigkingsfan]

everyone in the Pistons starting lineup was a 3x all-star (laimbeer, aguirre, dumars, Isiah, rodman), versus only MJ for the bulls
dumars and rodman didn't make the all star team until 1990. laimbeer and aguirre were no longer all star level players.

1989, both teams one all star, ordan lost.

[3ball]

dumars and rodman didn't make the all star team until 1990. laimbeer and aguirre were no longer all star level players.

1989, both teams one all star, ordan lost.
MJ's sidekick averaged 9 ppg - Isiah had at least 4 teammates better than pippen

9 ppg sidekick - that's a worse cast than lebron ever had - lebron had an all-star center as a rookie, and added a 22/5/5 all-defender and future COY in year 3... pippen wasn't capable of 22/5/5 until 1992.. let that sink in - MJ's cast was garbage, while Isiah had a super-team

[bigkingsfan]

MJ's sidekick averaged 9 ppg - Isiah had at least 4 teammates better than pippen

9 ppg sidekick - that's a worse cast than lebron ever had - lebron had an all-star center as a rookie, and added a 22/5/5 all-defender and future COY in year 3... pippen wasn't capable of 22/5/5 until 1992.. let that sink in - MJ's cast was garbage, while Isiah had a super-team
Isiah himself sucked.

39% 8 assist 21 points

Those are first option numbers.

[Hey Yo]

MJ's sidekick averaged 9 ppg - Isiah had at least 4 teammates better than pippen

9 ppg sidekick - that's a worse cast than lebron ever had - lebron had an all-star center as a rookie, and added a 22/5/5 all-defender and future COY in year 3... pippen wasn't capable of 22/5/5 until 1992.. let that sink in - MJ's cast was garbage, while Isiah had a super-team
The 4gms the Bulls lost were by an avg. of 8pts. Their defense kept themselves in it for entire series, even the game MJ quit and only took 8FGA.

Go watch the series and educate yourself.

[Tobio-Star]

Not really. Your so-called analysis is complete rubbish since Curry and Durant played on the most OP superteam of all time (at this point we might just call them a megateam). Their wins aren't worth shit.

As for Jordan his wins only come from the fact that his team was stacked. Without him they are a second round exit team.

Try again :rolleyes:

[Tobio-Star]

Anyway all of this won't matter when LeBron 3peats :rockon:

[3ball]

Not really. Your so-called analysis is complete rubbish since Curry and Durant played on the most OP superteam of all time (at this point we might just call them a megateam). Their wins aren't worth shit.

As for Jordan his wins only come from the fact that his team was stacked. Without him they are a second round exit team.

Try again :rolleyes:

if Jordans team was so stacked, why did he need to average 5 more than everyone in playoff history to win?

why did MJ need to average 10-30 more than pippen for every series of their careers (carry job), while also leading in assists and dpoy votes for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen? (goat scoring load + passing and defensive leader)

[highwhey]

if Jordans team was so stacked, why did he need to average 5 more than everyone in playoff history to win?

why did MJ need to average 10-30 more than pippen for every series of their careers (carry job), while also leading in assists and dpoy votes for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen? (goat scoring load + passing and defensive leader)

You wasted no time getting back to your trolling. You must have been refreshing the forum every second until the forum was back up. :facepalm

[3ball]

You wasted no time getting back to your trolling. You must have been refreshing the forum every second until the forum was back up. :facepalm
and you waste no time labeling facts as trolling because you have no response for it

the truth is that mj almost beat the champs in 1989 with a low seed and a 9 ppg sidekick, yet people baby Lebron when his super-teams lose by record amount or his high seeds get swept.. due to these debacles and his overall inability to field juggernauts, the media is PREDICTING loss despite having David Robinson as a teammate.. it's pathetic

[SouBeachTalents]

You wasted no time getting back to your trolling. You must have been refreshing the forum every second until the forum was back up. :facepalm
Forum was back up not even 10 minutes and he IMMEDIATELY made a new LeBron thread and bumped some of the older ones :oldlol: I could only imagine him last night unable to get his fix

https://media1.tenor.com/images/33024c8b82ca4925ac51594545700b22/tenor.gif

[3ball]

Forum was back up not even 10 minutes and he IMMEDIATELY made a new LeBron thread and bumped some of the older ones :oldlol: I could only imagine him last night unable to get his fix

https://media1.tenor.com/images/33024c8b82ca4925ac51594545700b22/tenor.gif

I didn't bump any old threads

[Wally450]

I didn't bump any old threads


This thread you immediately responded to is over a month old. :oldlol: