Analysis: Replace Lebron by Magic in the playoffs, how many titles would he win?

[Kiddlovesnets]

This what-if case analysis assumes that we replace Lebron with Magic in each playoffs series Lebron participated, while keeping everything else constant(same rosters, same seeding, same opponents, etc). One of the major difference is that, Lebron is good at making a scrub team better, while Magic is good at making a team with all-stars better. Now lets see what the result would be:




Season
Lebron
Magic


2003-2004
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs


2004-2005
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs


2005-2006
Lost to Detroit Pistons in 7(EC2R)
Lost to Detroit Pistons in 5(EC2R)


2006-2007
Lost to San Antonio Spurs in 4(Finals)
Lost to Detroit Pistons in 6(ECF)


2007-2008
Lost to Boston Celtics in 7(EC2R)
Lost to Boston Celtics in 6(EC2R)


2008-2009
Lost to Orlando Magic in 6(ECF)
Lost to Orlando Magic in 6(ECF)


2009-2010
Lost to Boston Celtics in 6(EC2R)
Lost to Boston Celtics in 6(EC2R)


2010-2011
Lost to Dallas Mavericks in 6(Finals)
Defeat Dallas Mavericks in 6(1st title)


2011-2012
Defeat OKC Thunder in 5(1st title)
Defeat OKC Thunder in 6(2nd title)


2012-2013
Defeat San Antonio Spurs in 7(2nd title)
Defeat San Antonio Spurs in 6(3rd title)


2013-2014
Lost to San Antonio Spurs in 5(Finals)
Lost to San Antonio Spurs in 6(Finals)


2014-2015
Lost to Golden State Warriors in 6(Finals)
Defeat Golden State Warriors in 6(4th title)


2015-2016
Defeat Golden State Warriors in 7(3rd title)
Defeat Golden State Warriors in 6(5th title)


2016-2017
Lost to Golden State Warriors in 5(Finals)
Lost to Golden State Warriors in 5(Finals)


2017-2018
Lost to Golden State Warriors in 4(Finals)
Lost to Boston Celtics in 6(ECF)

2018-2019
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs
[/tr]


So the above table shows that, if we replace Lebron with Magic in each year's playoffs, Lebron would perform better in the first few years but Magic would be the clear-cut better one since 2010. Instead of winning only 3 titles, Magic would have 5 titles with at least 4 FMVPs(2016's FMVP could be Kyrie's). Compared with Lebron, Magic would win 2 more rings in 2011 and 2015, with 2 less trips to Finals as he wouldnt make it in 2007 and 2018. And an interesting fact is that, Magic would go 5/7 in NBA finals, which is equivalent to Kobe's NBA Finals performance. Thoughts on this analysis?

[DoctorP]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/3dBYaf4H2qCoE/giphy.gif

semantics but I could see the case for Magic in the big picture happening. it's not out of the realm of possibility.

[RRR3]

Retardlovesnets strikes again

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't see anyone in LeBron's place winning more than 3-4 titles. 2011 is the only other season they'd for sure win

[Kiddlovesnets]

I don't see anyone in LeBron's place winning more than 3-4 titles. 2011 is the only other season they'd for sure win

Nah Magic would've win in 2011 and 2015(with 1-2 more FMVPs), while not making it to NBA finals in 2007 and 2018(which is better than getting swept there). This would've promoted his Finals record from 3/9(33%) to 5/7(71%), the winning percentage would increase to more than twice. Magic in Lebron's shoes would've been an easy choice for 2nd greatest player in the league history, right after MJ.

[SamuraiSWISH]

4 with the Heat
2 with the Cavs

6 total. 2 perennial all stars next to him, top 5 player, non ball dominant distributor. And post up capable. Yea, he’d be sitting on 6 right now in the exact same scenario.

He’d also def win this year with AD.

[3ball]

This idea that lebron had weak casts from 04-10' is false - this inflates his "carrying" ability compared to Magic, even though Magic was a goat leader and would galvanize any team to good success

09/10 lebron had all-star teammates (Mo, Jamison), all-defenders (varejao), the COY, and the #3 defense

05-07' Lebron had all-star teammates (Zydrunas), all-defender teammates (Hughes), top team defense, and the future COY

Most young players don't have any of these things, so they don't get high seeds and easy 1st round matchups like lebron had for his entire playoff career

[Gileraracer]

This analysis is on point!

I think we can all agree that Magic would win more than 3 titles with THAT help:

Shaq
Wade
Ray Allen
Bosh
Love
Irving
Rondo
Ilgauskas
Wallace
Williams
Marion
Korver
DRose
Tyson Chandler
Kuzma

[Ainosterhaspie]

Magic's not winning in '15 and '16. Love and Irving were both out in '15. In '16 the Cavs had LeBron scoring and defending at a level Magic never reached and barely squeaked out that win.

2011 is a stretch too. That Heat team was an absolute disgrace outside of the top three. I could see Magic winning there, but it's not assured. I also have my doubts as to whether he gets past the Bulls.

In 2012 and '13 are by no means assured titles either. Series against the Celtics in '12 and Pacers in '12 and '13 could easily be losses for Magic. In fact I doubt he wins all three, and most likely loses against the Celtics in '12 with Bosh injured a good chunk of that series.

[Bankaii]

It’s crazy how people forget how bad DWade was in the 2011 ECFs. Is Magic going to lockup DRose?
2012 is possible, but is Magic putting up that game 6, and beating Boston without Bosh?
2013 is a probably no. LeBron played insane defense that series and Magic isn't capable of that or his scoring output towards the end.
2015-19 is a no.
Magic would be really good on the current Lakers team tho.

[FireDavidKahn]

Magic ain't taking Mo Williams to 66 wins.

[3ball]

Lebron couldn't even win 58 games with prime Kyrie and had weaker teams than he should've.. otoh, Magic played a superior brand (1-PG lineup instead of lebron's 2 PG lineups) and would have a much better team than Lebron had with Kyrie

Accordingly, Magic would beat the 16' Warriors (regular season team) in less than 7

And to those claiming Magic couldn't average 30 like Lebron did - ur wrong - Magic averaged 30 in playoff series before.. but again, magic doesn't have to win the way lebron did because he employed a superior brand that yielded better teams

[RRR3]

Really starting to suspect coach and 3ball are the same idiot.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Probably the same number of titles, if not one more in 2011.

2015 is a stretch imo. The Cavs needed a ton of scoring, and I don't think Magic provides that. At least not for a 7 game series. Doubt he wins in 2016, 2017 and 2018 either.

[FireDavidKahn]

Probably the same number of titles, if not one more in 2011.

2015 is a stretch imo. The Cavs needed a ton of scoring, and I don't think Magic provides that. At least not for a 7 game series. Doubt he wins in 2016, 2017 and 2018 either.

You could argue other years but there's absolutely ZERO chance Magic wins against those 73 win Warriors if the cast is exactly the same

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You could argue other years but there's absolutely ZERO chance Magic wins against those 73 win Warriors if the cast is exactly the same

Yeah. Even with the Draymond suspension, Lebron had games I don't think Magic was capable of. Magic could score, yes, just not like that. I think Magic wins in 2011, 2012 and in 2013. Safest years if you really think about it. So again, about the same number of chips. But different years.

[G0ATbe]

2011 is the one he might win. Brons teams are worse off with magic every other year.

[3ball]

wouldn't a Magic-led team win a lot more than 51 with prime Kyrie and Love?

why is there an assumption that those Cavs teams wouldn't be better with Magic?.. 57, 53, and 51 wins is pretty bad for those Cavs teams.. they were infact the preseason and pre-playoffs favorites in 2015 before Kyrie got hurt, but their poor regular season performance made them underdogs

[bigkingsfan]

Magic + Kareem got upset by the Rockets twice. First year without Kareem, 63 wins but lose in the 2nd round.

[AussieSteve]

Magic wins 2011 and probably (but not definitetly) both of 12 and 13. That's it.

No way he's winning 14, 15 or 16 with those casts against the spurs/warriors.

So I'll say probably 3 rings.

[eliteballer]

lol.

Look at Magic's Finals/Playoffs numbers as a 20 year old rookie.

[3ball]

2011 is the one he might win. Brons teams are worse off with magic every other year.


Magic wins 2011 and probably (but not definitetly) both of 12 and 13. That's it.

No way he's winning 14, 15 or 16 with those casts against the spurs/warriors.

So I'll say probably 3 rings.
so we're assuming that Magic wouldn't win more than 51 and 53 games with Kyrie and have MUCH better teams than the perennial underdogs that Lebron-ball had?

sounds dumb to me..

[AussieSteve]

so we're assuming that Magic wouldn't win more than 51 and 53 games with Kyrie and have MUCH better teams than the perennial underdogs that Lebron-ball had?

sounds dumb to me..


No. He may well have won 60 each year. I don't know.

We're assuming that he wouldn't have beaten the '15 Warriors with Delly as his second option. No one in history would have. I doubt anyone else would have got the two games LeBron got.

And we're assuming that he wouldn't have gotten past the 73 win Warriors in the finals either.

These are fair assumptions. Because LeBron's '15 finals cast was trash, and Magic was never as good as LeBron was in the '16 finals.

[SpaceJam2]

I'll keep this simple so that your relatively tiny brain can consume it. LeBron James is the greatest player in the history of the sport.

LeBron James has averaged 24 points per game every single year of his career, rookie year aside.

Magic has NEVER averaged over 23.9 in his career.

They are not even closley the same. MJ gets beasted in Scoring. A better comparison would be MJ and Magic (#2 and #3).

6,911 [1st] LeBron

2nd?
Who cares

[FKAri]

OK. Real talk:
He wouldn't win with any of the Cavs teams. As for the Heat, Magic most probably wins in 2011 in the Finals but not sure if the Heat get past the Bulls with Magic. The Lebron-Wade perimeter defensive tandem was a big part of overcoming them. Magic likely wins in 2012. So that is in all likelihood 1-2 rings.

Magic's offensive impact would be greater than Lebron's was on those Heat teams (even though I believe Lebron's a better offensive player overall in this era, Magic would get more out of those Heat teams due to the stylistic fit). But Magic's defense in place's of Bron's would hinder the Heat tremendously and outweigh the offensive boost. Lebron's free safety, roaming defense was critical to the Heat's success.

[StrongLurk]

Magic would probably win 1 less title than Lebron, while Lebron would probably win 5 if he replaced Magic on those 80's Lakers teams.

Lebron has a slight edge on Magic.

[Kiddlovesnets]

As we can see from the analysis, Magic would still have won 5 rings and maintained a much better finals record if following Lebron’s career path. LeBron is a poor man’s Magic and his next goal should be aiming at surpassing Magic. We can’t compare LeBron with MJ yet when Magic is in between.

[SouBeachTalents]

As we can see from the analysis, Magic would still have won 5 rings and maintained a much better finals record if following Lebron’s career path. LeBron is a poor man’s Magic and his next goal should be aiming at surpassing Magic. We can’t compare LeBron with MJ yet when Magic is in between.
The vast majority of posters in the thread disagree he wins 5 rings, your hypothesis was roundly rejected

[iamgine]

This what-if case analysis assumes that we replace Lebron with Magic in each playoffs series Lebron participated, while keeping everything else constant(same rosters, same seeding, same opponents, etc). One of the major difference is that, Lebron is good at making a scrub team better, while Magic is good at making a team with all-stars better. Now lets see what the result would be:




Season
Lebron
Magic


2003-2004
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs


2004-2005
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs


2005-2006
Lost to Detroit Pistons in 7(EC2R)
Lost to Detroit Pistons in 5(EC2R)


2006-2007
Lost to San Antonio Spurs in 4(Finals)
Lost to Detroit Pistons in 6(ECF)


2007-2008
Lost to Boston Celtics in 7(EC2R)
Lost to Boston Celtics in 6(EC2R)


2008-2009
Lost to Orlando Magic in 6(ECF)
Lost to Orlando Magic in 6(ECF)


2009-2010
Lost to Boston Celtics in 6(EC2R)
Lost to Boston Celtics in 6(EC2R)


2010-2011
Lost to Dallas Mavericks in 6(Finals)
Defeat Dallas Mavericks in 6(1st title)


2011-2012
Defeat OKC Thunder in 5(1st title)
Defeat OKC Thunder in 6(2nd title)


2012-2013
Defeat San Antonio Spurs in 7(2nd title)
Defeat San Antonio Spurs in 6(3rd title)


2013-2014
Lost to San Antonio Spurs in 5(Finals)
Lost to San Antonio Spurs in 6(Finals)


2014-2015
Lost to Golden State Warriors in 6(Finals)
Defeat Golden State Warriors in 6(4th title)


2015-2016
Defeat Golden State Warriors in 7(3rd title)
Defeat Golden State Warriors in 6(5th title)


2016-2017
Lost to Golden State Warriors in 5(Finals)
Lost to Golden State Warriors in 5(Finals)


2017-2018
Lost to Golden State Warriors in 4(Finals)
Lost to Boston Celtics in 6(ECF)

2018-2019
Missed Playoffs
Missed Playoffs
[/tr]


So the above table shows that, if we replace Lebron with Magic in each year's playoffs, Lebron would perform better in the first few years but Magic would be the clear-cut better one since 2010. Instead of winning only 3 titles, Magic would have 5 titles with at least 4 FMVPs(2016's FMVP could be Kyrie's). Compared with Lebron, Magic would win 2 more rings in 2011 and 2015, with 2 less trips to Finals as he wouldnt make it in 2007 and 2018. And an interesting fact is that, Magic would go 5/7 in NBA finals, which is equivalent to Kobe's NBA Finals performance. Thoughts on this analysis?
In which season do Magic got HIV? Cause that could change things.

[3ball]

No. He may well have won 60 each year. I don't know.

We're assuming that he wouldn't have beaten the '15 Warriors with Delly as his second option. No one in history would have. I doubt anyone else would have got the two games LeBron got.

And we're assuming that he wouldn't have gotten past the 73 win Warriors in the finals either.

These are fair assumptions. Because LeBron's '15 finals cast was trash, and Magic was never as good as LeBron was in the '16 finals.
Everyone knows the warriors lose in 15' if the Cavs were healthy, and we already know they lost in 16', so they never proved they were championship caliber without KD

That's why lebron won 2 games despite playing worse than Iverson (39% shooting, 17% on jumpers).. only lebron can get props for playing like Iverson.. Iverson's 1 win over a REAL juggernaut (01' Lakers) > Lebron's 2 wins over a fake champion

But carry on - keep saying lebron > Magics based on his Iverson performance against non-champs in 15'... :rolleyes:

And Magic absolutely played better than Lebron did in 16'... Lebron needed 7 games because he averaged 24 and 6 TO's thru 4 games - Magic easily exceeds this performance and wins in less games.. Lebron tends to choke until it's absolute desperation time - Magic took the bull by the horns and would've won that series easier, especially with a sidekick closer getting nearly 30 a game

[BigShotBob]

In which season do Magic got HIV? Cause that could change things.

That's the real question.

[3ball]

Everyone knows the warriors lose in 15' if the Cavs were healthy, and we already know they lost in 16', so they never proved they were championship caliber without KD

That's why lebron won 2 games despite playing worse than Iverson (39% shooting, 17% on jumpers).. only lebron can get props for playing like Iverson.. Iverson's win over a REAL juggernaut (01' Lakers) > Lebron's 2 wins over a fake champion in 15'

But carry on - keep saying lebron > Magics based on his Iverson performance against non-champs in 15'... :rolleyes:

And Magic absolutely played better than Lebron did in 16'... Lebron needed 7 games because he averaged 24 and 6 TO's thru 4 games - Magic easily exceeds this performance and wins in less games.. Lebron tends to choke until it's absolute desperation time - Magic took the bull by the horns and would've won that series easier, especially with a sidekick closer getting nearly 30 a game


Aussie don't run from this

[SpaceJam2]

Swap Bradley Beal or Russell Westbrook for MJ and they win at least 6. Imagine it.

Meanwhile LBJ is getting swapped by Magic and still only wins 1.

:lol