Jayson Tatum in February so far (10 games): 30.3 PPG on 64.8 TS%

[RRR3]

:biggums:

[AirBonner]

:biggums:

Turned another corner. Franchise player with potential to be an all time great

[AirBonner]

Bumping for an awesome player

[BigShotBob]

We'll see in the playoffs.

[Celtics 1825]

What were Ingram's stats during this period? Asking for a "friend".

[Sportal]

What were Ingram's stats during this period? Asking for a "friend".

Is your friend AirTupac?

[dbugz]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/l1J9HcQqF1RQe0rXG/giphy.gif

[ImKobe]

First 41 games

Tatum - 21.5 ppg 43.4%FG/36.4%3PT/84.0%FT
Ingram - 25.2 ppg 46.8%FG/39.1%3PT/85.3%FT

Ingram's had to sacrifice his shots to adapt Zion to the Pels' offense, but his efficiency has actually gone up, averaging 21.5 ppg on 48.6%FG/42.2%3PT/89.8%FT in his last 10 games.


What were Ingram's stats during this period? Asking for a "friend".

Ingram's averaging 24/6/4 on 50/40/86 shooting (64.05%TS) in February so far.

[LoneyROY7]

First 41 games

Tatum - 21.5 ppg 43.4%FG/36.4%3PT/84.0%FT
Ingram - 25.2 ppg 46.8%FG/39.1%3PT/85.3%FT

Ingram's had to sacrifice his shots to adapt Zion to the Pels' offense, but his efficiency has actually gone up, averaging 21.5 ppg on 48.6%FG/42.2%3PT/89.8%FT in his last 10 games.



Ingram's averaging 24/6/4 on 50/40/86 shooting (64.05%TS) in February so far.

Lol.

Tatum is doing this while being the first option on a top 3 team in the conference. He is simply a more talented player with a higher ceiling. It is what it is.

[Ghost1]

Jayson Tatum
Luka Doncic
Zion Williamson


Jordan Fam :lebronamazed:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Jayson Tatum
Luka Doncic
Zion Williamson


Jordan Fam :lebronamazed:
What did verbs do to you why you refuse to use them?

[ImKobe]

Lol.

Tatum is doing this while being the first option on a top 3 team in the conference. He is simply a more talented player with a higher ceiling. It is what it is.

He has 3 other all-star level players around him and a great coach, he was drafted onto a winning team and had them build the offense around him, has great defenders around him.

Ingram's played at a high level all season while Tatum struggled in the first ~30 games. BI is a better shooter and a more versatile offensive player. Tatum has the edge athletically which makes him better on defense and at finishing around the basket but BI has just as good of a ceiling with his build and what he's already capable of doing offensively. Ingram actually gets to the line more and shoots better on FTs & from mid-range, and is a better playmaker.

[LoneyROY7]

He has 3 other all-star level players around him and a great coach, he was drafted onto a winning team and had them build the offense around him, has great defenders around him.

Ingram's played at a high level all season while Tatum struggled in the first ~30 games. BI is a better shooter and a more versatile offensive player. Tatum has the edge athletically which makes him better on defense and at finishing around the basket but BI has just as good of a ceiling with his build and what he's already capable of doing offensively. Ingram actually gets to the line more and shoots better on FTs & from mid-range, and is a better playmaker.

Tatum has 3 other all-star level players around him...and he's still the number 1 guy. He's averaging over 30 ppg in February and his team is 10-2. He's dominating while playing winning basketball.

When Ingram was putting up big numbers early in the year, the team was literally losing every game. Now that Zion is back and Ingram is ceding shots to the clearly more talented player, the Pels are actually starting to win some games.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Delving into a rivalry that has never made sense and only exists on this board:
He has 3 other all-star level players around him and a great coach, he was drafted onto a winning team and had them build the offense around him, has great defenders around him.

Ingram's played at a high level all season while Tatum struggled in the first ~30 games. BI is a better shooter and a more versatile offensive player. Tatum has the edge athletically which makes him better on defense and at finishing around the basket but BI has just as good of a ceiling with his build and what he's already capable of doing offensively. Ingram actually gets to the line more and shoots better on FTs & from mid-range, and is a better playmaker.For the season Ingram shoots 1% better from the field, 4% better on free throws and 0.1% better on threes. Caeer Ingram is 2% better from the field, 3% worse from three, and 12% worse on free throws. acting like Ingram is a better shooter is a stretch at best and as far a offensive versatility please point out what Ingram can do that Tatum can't.

[JohnnySic]

Can we retire this comparison already?

Next season Tatum will likely be all NBA, if he continues his upward arc.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Can we retire this comparison already?

Next season Tatum will likely be all NBA, if he continues his upward arc.If the rest of the year is close to February he's All-NBA this season.

[ImKobe]

Delving into a rivalry that has never made sense and only exists on this board:For the season Ingram shoots 1% better from the field, 4% better on free throws and 0.1% better on threes. Caeer Ingram is 2% better from the field, 3% worse from three, and 12% worse on free throws. acting like Ingram is a better shooter is a stretch at best and as far a offensive versatility please point out what Ingram can do that Tatum can't.

BI this season is better from every shot distance but 3s (higher 3PT% but Tatum takes more per game so it evens out) and is getting to the line a lot more and also averages two more assists per 100 possessions. Ingram's also maintained those numbers all season despite having to adjust to Zion the past month.

I'm not trying to say that BI is better, but that he's made the same leap Tatum did this season and both are playing at a high level. I don't get why Boston fans talk shit about Ingram like he's still a Laker. Appreciate both players.

[juju151111]

BI this season is better from every shot distance but 3s (higher 3PT% but Tatum takes more per game so it evens out) and is getting to the line a lot more and also averages two more assists per 100 possessions. Ingram's also maintained those numbers all season despite having to adjust to Zion the past month.

I'm not trying to say that BI is better, but that he's made the same leap Tatum did this season and both are playing at a high level. I don't get why Boston fans talk shit about Ingram like he's still a Laker. Appreciate both players.
Tatum plays all nba defense which puts him above.

[AirBonner]

Tatum plays all nba defense which puts him above.

This ultimately makes Tatum the better player

[JohnnySic]

I'm not in the habit of bumping troll threads, but just for luls:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?459231-Jayson-Trashtum/page7 :roll:

[Real Men Wear Green]

BI this season is better from every shot distance but 3s (higher 3PT% but Tatum takes more per game so it evens out) and is getting to the line a lot more and also averages two more assists per 100 possessions. Ingram's also maintained those numbers all season despite having to adjust to Zion the past month.2 more assists per 100 posessions? You're going to pretend that something like that is at all significant? And so what about playing with Williamson for 13 games? He should thank heaven for Zion, without him they're one of the worst teams in the league. And how would playing beside a superior scoring threat hurt Ingram's shooting numbers to begin with? You are making a big deal about shooting numbers when the difference overall is 2%, That isn't at all significant.


I'm not trying to say that BI is better, but that he's made the same leap Tatum did this season and both are playing at a high level. I don't get why Boston fans talk shit about Ingram like he's still a Laker. Appreciate both players.
The "rivalry" doesn't exist in the real world but are you really going to act like AirTupac and some other Laker fans haven't been irrationally trashing Tatum to praise Ingram for years?

[Wally450]

Eastern Conference player of the month for February.

[MaxFly]

Tatum plays all nba defense which puts him above.

Yes. Yes it does.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3ov9k3mdYALW0p8bqU/source.gif

[RRR3]

On/off


Tatum +12.0
Ingram -1.6





:yaohappy:

[insidehoops]

Another huge game for Jayson Tatum yesterday.

Celtics now 9-2 in February so far.

[ImKobe]

2 more assists per 100 posessions? You're going to pretend that something like that is at all significant? And so what about playing with Williamson for 13 games? He should thank heaven for Zion, without him they're one of the worst teams in the league. And how would playing beside a superior scoring threat hurt Ingram's shooting numbers to begin with? You are making a big deal about shooting numbers when the difference overall is 2%, That isn't at all significant.


The "rivalry" doesn't exist in the real world but are you really going to act like AirTupac and some other Laker fans haven't been irrationally trashing Tatum to praise Ingram for years?

BI's averaging 4.3 assists to Tatum's 2.9 and has 27 games of 5+ assists to Tatum's 6 for the season.

Pelicans struggled due to all the injuries (including BI) early in the season. Every single starter went through it, which is why they started off slow. They turned the corner before Zion, winning 11 of their last 16 games prior to his first game of the season, they're just 7 - 6 since he came back. And what do you mean WHY would it affect Ingram to add another high-volume scorer to their offense in the middle of the season? The answer's obvious, especially with a guy who doesn't have a consistent outside shot and who takes away some of the driving lanes from BI. He's going to get the ball less as they're trying to work Zion into their offense. And it's hilarious you're calling Zion a superior scorer to slight Ingram.

[Real Men Wear Green]

BI's averaging 4.3 assists to Tatum's 2.9 and has 27 games of 5+ assists to Tatum's 6 for the season. Averaging one more assist is pretty far from being a more versatile offensive player.


Pelicans struggled due to all the injuries (including BI) early in the season. Every single starter went through it, which is why they started off slow. They turned the corner before Zion, winning 11 of their last 16 games prior to his first game of the season, they're just 7 - 6 since he came back.So 18-27 without Williamson, 7-6 with him.
And what do you mean WHY would it affect Ingram to add another high-volume scorer to their offense in the middle of the season? The answer's obvious, especially with a guy who doesn't have a consistent outside shot and who takes away some of the driving lanes from BI. He's going to get the ball less as they're trying to work Zion into their offense. And it's hilarious you're calling Zion a superior scorer to slight Ingram.We were talking fg %ages, correct? Zion Williamson is the player the opposing team is going to focus on,, and he will make the game easier for any teammates, especially guys that play on the perimeter. And yes, he is a better scorer. He averages 23 points on 57% from the field (26 in February). Williamson is a superstar. Ingram is not.

[ImKobe]

Averaging one more assist is pretty far from being a more versatile offensive player.

So 18-27 without Williamson, 7-6 with him. We were talking fg %ages, correct? Zion Williamson is the player the opposing team is going to focus on,, and he will make the game easier for any teammates, especially guys that play on the perimeter. And yes, he is a better scorer. He averages 23 points on 57% from the field (26 in February). Williamson is a superstar. Ingram is not.

BI's superior in he post, mid-range and is slightly more efficient in the paint. He's had 5+ assists in 27 out of 50 games while Tatum's had 6 games of 5+ assists out of 54. Tatum's also only got to the line 10+ times in just 4 out of 54 games vs BI's 8 in 50.

BI scores more on a per game basis than Zion while also at 60+%TS while also having a far superior offensive game. Zion's actually less efficient inside 3 ft despite his physical advantage.

I'll wait for you to spin this again.

[Real Men Wear Green]

BI's superior in he post, mid-range and is slightly more efficient in the paint. He's had 5+ assists in 27 out of 50 games while Tatum's had 6 games of 5+ assists out of 54. Tatum's also only got to the line 10+ times in just 4 out of 54 games vs BI's 8 in 50.Curious as to how with all of this alleged superiority he only shoots 2% better. Post, paint, and midrange, right? Why isn't there more of a difference?

The extra assist per game really doesn't show versatility. It shows that Ingram looks for his teammates a little more.

[ImKobe]

Curious as to how with all of this alleged superiority he only shoots 2% better. Post, paint, and midrange, right? Why isn't there more of a difference?

The extra assist per game really doesn't show versatility. It shows that Ingram looks for his teammates a little more.

2% is a lot at that level, as is 1.4 assists per game. Tatum's superior defense evens things out. Both are awesome players. My point wasn't that one's better than the other, just that they've both improved a lot this season and deserve recognition, but for some reason a Boston fan has to trash Ingram in a Tatum thread (not you, the guy who originally slighted Ingram in a thread that had nothing to do with him). It's not like I came in here trying to bash Jayson, just made my case for BI.

I hope people aren't just bashing on certain players here because of one poster, I've given everyone their credit. I picked the Celtics to beat the Cavs in 2018 because of Tatum and took the shit for it when they didn't get it done.

[Celtics 1825]

Ingram's averaging 24/6/4 on 50/40/86 shooting (64.05%TS) in February so far.
Less than Tatum :lebronamazed:

What do you have to say about this AirFakkit?

[Real Men Wear Green]

BI scores more on a per game basis than Zion while also at 60+%TS while also having a far superior offensive game. Zion's actually less efficient inside 3 ft despite his physical advantage.

I'll wait for you to spin this againYou accuse me of spin while talking about the ppg of two guy when one has played all season while the other has 13 games off injury?

Williamson did 19 ppg in january still on minute restriction and is getting 26 in February. He's a superstar.
2% is a lot at that level, as is 1.4 assists per game. Tatum's superior defense evens things out. Both are awesome players. My point wasn't that one's better than the other, just that they've both improved a lot this season and deserve recognition, but for some reason a Boston fan has to trash Ingram in a Tatum thread (not you, the guy who originally slighted Ingram in a thread that had nothing to do with him). It's not like I came in here trying to bash Jayson, just made my case for BI.

I hope people aren't just bashing on certain players here because of one poster, I've given everyone their credit. I picked the Celtics to beat the Cavs in 2018 because of Tatum and took the shit for it when they didn't get it done.
2% is somethng like one more miss every three games. And that's with Tatum's numbers improving all season. Little significance. The assist is more meaningful in terms of impact but it certainly doesn't show superior offensive skills.

[red1]

celtics are the only team in the east that can beat the bucks in a playoff series. if tatum can play at 80% of this level in the playoffs they can win the chip...

[regnortSkcaB]

Young Padawan following the teachings of Master Jedi's Kobe. All-star next year if he doesn't suffer a slump.

[AirBonner]

Young Padawan following the teachings of Master Jedi's Kobe. All-star next year if he doesn't suffer a slump.

Was an allstar this year

[regnortSkcaB]

He needs to validate that year to year.

[AirBonner]

He needs to validate that year to year.

Fair enough

[MMM]

Best for a Celtics players since Pierce in Feb 06???

[tontoz]

Ainge haters are pretty quiet lately. They usually are this time of year.

They seem to come out in force in the summer/fall but by the All-Star break they seem to lose their voices.

[bobopenguin]

if i am a celtics fan, i would be pissed if i see this man in purple & gold jersey.

[ImKobe]

You accuse me of spin while talking about the ppg of two guy when one has played all season while the other has 13 games off injury?

Williamson did 19 ppg in january still on minute restriction and is getting 26 in February. He's a superstar.
2% is somethng like one more miss every three games. And that's with Tatum's numbers improving all season. Little significance. The assist is more meaningful in terms of impact but it certainly doesn't show superior offensive skills.

I'm just stating facts. You're calling Zion a superior scorer but he's actually very limited in what he can do, and he's not even more efficient in his strongest area which is inside 3 ft. A guy who doesn't have a consistent outside shot & ability to make FTs at a high rate is not superior to a guy who can score from anywhere on the court while having the same volume/efficiency. You can't call someone a superior scorer and then just make excuses for injury or games played. Ingram's played at that level for 50+ games (starting last season in LA) with all the teams having experience against him while Zion's playing most teams for the first time right now. He's no Shaq at this stage in his career. Shaq was close to 80% inside 3 ft through his early years and his prime, Zion's at ~67%, which is less efficient than Tatum & Ingram.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I'm just stating facts. You're calling Zion a superior scorer but he's actually very limited in what he can do, and he's not even more efficient in his strongest area which is inside 3 ft. A guy who doesn't have a consistent outside shot & ability to make FTs at a high rate is not superior to a guy who can score from anywhere on the court while having the same volume/efficiency. You can't call someone a superior scorer and then just make excuses for injury or games played. Ingram's played at that level for 50+ games (starting last season in LA) with all the teams having experience against him while Zion's playing most teams for the first time right now. He's no Shaq at this stage in his career. Shaq was close to 80% inside 3 ft through his early years and his prime, Zion's at ~67%, which is less efficient than Tatum & Ingram.
Shaq had maybe a fifth the basketball skill of Tim Hardaway. He was still a vastly better player. Williamson will continue to get a ton of those 3ft shots he is so horribly inefficient at, will continue to put the ball in the hole from that range and will dominate opposing defenders because his athleticism size and strength make him an overwhelming force for pretty much everyone in the league but Giannis.

[ImKobe]

Shaq had maybe a fifth the basketball skill of Tim Hardaway. He was still a vastly better player. Williamson will continue to get a ton of those 3ft shots he is so horribly inefficient at, will continue to put the ball in the hole from that range and will dominate opposing defenders because his athleticism size and strength make him an overwhelming force for pretty much everyone in the league but Giannis.

Tim Hardaway wasn't scoring more points than Shaq on same efficiency. Zion's great and he has potential to be better than Ingram/Tatum with his athletic ability combined with him improving his skills, but that's not the case yet. Right now Zion is in that young Blake Griffin territory in terms of being crazy athletic and unstoppable in the paint, but we'll see if he develops his all-around game and whether his body can hold up throughout a full NBA season.


Less than Tatum :lebronamazed:

What do you have to say about this AirFakkit?

Ingram's been the better scorer when we look at the whole season. Both are destined for greatness and will likely be top 5-10 players in the league throughout their primes.

[Kblaze8855]

Until you can account for the different ratios of uncontested layups and dunks vs actually working to create a shot vs an in position defense shooting inside 3 feet is a bullshit stat like most of the rest. A guy who shoots at the rim mostly on a defensive lapse or fast break might shoot better than a guy actually posting up and wrecking people. Without the information on kinds of shots attempted the efficiency argument on those shots is nothing but filler. Which is why most shooting numbers can’t really measure ability. Too many factors you need to see unfold to know what they mean.

Im sure Zion gets plenty of random unguarded dunks....I’m also sure he actually drives and posts up more per attempt than most of the leagues scorers which would throw his ratio off. Not to mention h rebounds and puts back an ungodly number of his own shots. There is(as always) too much to consider to make it a shooting numbers game like people always want to do because those numbers give them a sense of security in their argument.

[ImKobe]

That wasn't the point. The point was that he's limited as a scorer at this stage in his career. Yes, he can get to the rim effectively and finish at a high rate at a high volume and he'll get to the line more as a result, but his FG% doesn't make him a better scorer than someone who can put the ball in the basket from anywhere on the court on similar efficiency & volume. Ingram's 67-68% inside 3 ft for the 3rd straight season now and he's getting to the line 6-7 times a game so he has that ability as well on top of doing everything else offensively.

We know that good Playoff teams can stop that type of a player over the course of a series. It's not like Zion's the first forward with limited range in league history. Lebron had that ability but could also shoot better and was still shut down by certain teams who forced him to take that jump shot, same thing's happened with Ben Simmons and Giannis.

Apart from Shaq (who was 7-1 & 350+), how many physically dominant players that lacked a consistent jump shot have led a team to a title? And Shaq was otherworldy, he was even more limited than Zion in terms of range and FT ability, but he could average 30 while scoring at 75-80% inside 3 ft.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Just saw on get up that Williamson averages 29.5 points per 36 minutes. Shooting 57%.

[Kblaze8855]

That wasn't the point. The point was that he's limited as a scorer at this stage in his career. Yes, he can get to the rim effectively and finish at a high rate at a high volume and he'll get to the line more as a result, but his FG% doesn't make him a better scorer than someone who can put the ball in the basket from anywhere on the court on similar efficiency & volume. Ingram's 67-68% inside 3 ft for the 3rd straight season now and he's getting to the line 6-7 times a game so he has that ability as well on top of doing everything else offensively.

We know that good Playoff teams can stop that type of a player over the course of a series. It's not like Zion's the first forward with limited range in league history. Lebron had that ability but could also shoot better and was still shut down by certain teams who forced him to take that jump shot, same thing's happened with Ben Simmons and Giannis.

Apart from Shaq (who was 7-1 & 350+), how many physically dominant players that lacked a consistent jump shot have led a team to a title? And Shaq was otherworldy, he was even more limited than Zion in terms of range and FT ability, but he could average 30 while scoring at 75-80% inside 3 ft.


If he gets no better....stays exactly what he is...but plays a normal number of games and minutes?

Hes probably going to the hall of fame given his age and how long he has to do it.

You talking about if he can win a title this way and using guys like Giannis(A soon to be 2 time MVP and already a likely hall of famer) as a negative example?

I swear Zion criticism is some of the weirdest on here.

I discussed the inside 3 feet number because you referenced it like 5 times in a few posts and it stood out to me.

Its just a weird thing to harp on. Its a nothing stat without a lot more information. Bruce Bowen shot better at 3 feet than David Robinson at some points....obviously because of the kinds of shots he would take inside as opposed to a more dedicated paint scorer. Zach Randolph was 7th on Memphis in at the rim shooting the one year I checked and 9th on the Blazers in his first 20/10 season. Obviously it isnt because all those guys were tougher around the basket. He was playing real low post ball and not taking all his at the rim shots on dumpoffs and the fast break.

It just seems like something a basketball fan should instantly think of when they see such a number and not even try to make a point out of. But I feel that way about pretty much all shooting numbers all of which require tremendous context to make sense and are almost never posted with that context. Just in service to whatever point is being made. That was my issue. I dont really care about your Zion/Ingram thing you seem to be doing. I dont think theres that much question who the Pelicans would value more but its not important enough to argue over to me.

[scuzzy]

Zion averaging 24ppg in his first 13 games


Ingram's 20+ point games:

2017: 2 games
2018: 9 games
2019: 17 games


BI loses touches with Zion in the lineup, his ppg goes down, Pelicans start winning

Dude is the definition of empty stats, quit bundling him in the same tier with Tatum and Zion

[I.R.Beast]

Tatum, is a better ball handler, shooter, finisher, and defender. He's more efficient with the ball and doesnt take nearly as much time to get into what he's doing than Brandon Ingam. Also. Tatum does all this while being the catalyst to his team winning the way they do. Ingram is a stat guy, but doesnt impact the game on both ends like Tatum does, and doesn't score at important junctures of the game than Tatum does. The eye test would end this debate. Tatum is easily better than BI to me. Stats lie a lot. Scoring a bunch of points in countless losing efforts is not the same as when you're doing on a good team.

[dbugz]

Ingram is just an empty stat dude.

He's not in the level of Tatum.

[CelticBaller]

Lol.

Tatum is doing this while being the first option on a top 3 team in the conference. He is simply a more talented player with a higher ceiling. It is what it is.

Oof

Don’t do em like that :oldlol:

[CelticBaller]

Ainge haters are pretty quiet lately. They usually are this time of year.

They seem to come out in force in the summer/fall but by the All-Star break they seem to lose their voices.

Ainge haters are just a bunch of bucktooth idiots. You bump the old threads and you will see the usual suspects

[Tking714]

Delving into a rivalry that has never made sense and only exists on this board:For the season Ingram shoots 1% better from the field, 4% better on free throws and 0.1% better on threes. Caeer Ingram is 2% better from the field, 3% worse from three, and 12% worse on free throws. acting like Ingram is a better shooter is a stretch at best and as far a offensive versatility please point out what Ingram can do that Tatum can't.

I like both players alot. They are really different though. I bolded the points I think Ingram has over Tatum.

Ingram's a better passer, more of a point forward. Slower game. He'll play in the high post and get to the mid post a lot with fakes/up-under etc. And he'll usually do it at a slower pace, which leads to alot of kickout passes, or pass to cutters. Which is why you see the higher assist total.

Ingram's a Better off ball player for sure at least by volume; because Tatum usually creates with the Ball. When Tatum plays off-ball he tends to do a few dribbles after getting it. Ingram tends to slide to the corner for his off ball 3, and let's it go faster. Ingram cuts ALOT and gets a lot of oops and dunks off a cut. Alot.

They both pull up for the mid-range pretty equally from what I see. They differ in spots otherwise.


Ingram is the better defender. They both are all-nba defenders for sure.

Tatum seems to defend smaller guys to cover for Kemba. Which is fine because Tatum is so fast and explosive, it's crazy. Whereas Ingram usually gets the SF/PF match up which can be scary these days. Giannis/Wiggins/Kawhi/Lebron. Ingram is good at staying in front, Tatum is good at passing lanes.

Tatum plays at the top of 3pt line alot, similar to Kemba. I'm interested to see how his playoff game looks. Tatum's baskets are high effort like a small guard. Also he has a lot of reliance on screens, especially from Kanter who's great at them. Tatum is bigger/faster/stronger/more skilled than regular season match-ups so it's working for now.

The huge uptick in stats for Tatum this month is just him doing alot of what Kemba was doing before. He's getting huge usage and ALOT of screens. And this season is proving to have high stats for that on-ball gaurd role.

[CelticBaller]

I like both players alot. They are really different though. I bolded the points I think Ingram has over Tatum.

Ingram's a better passer, more of a point forward. Slower game. He'll play in the high post and get to the mid post a lot with fakes/up-under etc. And he'll usually do it at a slower pace, which leads to alot of kickout passes, or pass to cutters. Which is why you see the higher assist total.

Ingram's a Better off ball player for sure at least by volume; because Tatum usually creates with the Ball. When Tatum plays off-ball he tends to do a few dribbles after getting it. Ingram tends to slide to the corner for his off ball 3, and let's it go faster. Ingram cuts ALOT and gets a lot of oops and dunks off a cut. Alot.

They both pull up for the mid-range pretty equally from what I see. They differ in spots otherwise.


Ingram is the better defender. They both are all-nba defenders for sure.

Tatum seems to defend smaller guys to cover for Kemba. Which is fine because Tatum is so fast and explosive, it's crazy. Whereas Ingram usually gets the SF/PF match up which can be scary these days. Giannis/Wiggins/Kawhi/Lebron. Ingram is good at staying in front, Tatum is good at passing lanes.

Tatum plays at the top of 3pt line alot, similar to Kemba. I'm interested to see how his playoff game looks. Tatum's baskets are high effort like a small guard. Also he has a lot of reliance on screens, especially from Kanter who's great at them. Tatum is bigger/faster/stronger/more skilled than regular season match-ups so it's working for now.

The huge uptick in stats for Tatum this month is just him doing alot of what Kemba was doing before. He's getting huge usage and ALOT of screens. And this season is proving to have high stats for that on-ball gaurd role.

Jayson Tatum is a better defender by almost every metric

[Meticode]

It's been really great to see him blossom. He's starting to figure it out. I was watching The Jump yesterday and they had David Fizdale and Zach Lowe on. And Rachel asked Zach Lowes who does he remind you of. And Zach was assuming with the way he's been playing right now. Lowe never said a name, but he mentioned thinking about scoring wings that can score 28 a game, 5 assists a game and can defend...I can tell the last person he thought of was Kobe. But he just didn't want to say it yet.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Tatum seems to defend smaller guys to cover for Kemba. Which is fine because Tatum is so fast and explosive, it's crazy. Umm...no.

[Tking714]

Umm...no.

These games were just on.

Against the blazers. Tatum was on Gary Trent most of the game even the 4th. Ariza/Melo would gaurd Tatum, but in reverse Tatum would gaurd them only when they came out to the perimeter on switches.

Against the Jazz, Tatum was on Royce Oneal and sometimes Conley.

Give me the heights of all those guys. Watch the games he's not getting hard assignments.

[CelticBaller]

These games were just on.

Against the blazers. Tatum was on Gary Trent most of the game even the 4th. Ariza/Melo would gaurd Tatum, but in reverse Tatum would gaurd them only when they came out to the perimeter on switches.

Against the Jazz, Tatum was on Royce Oneal and sometimes Conley.

Give me the heights of all those guys. Watch the games he's not getting hard assignments.

Against the Clippers he literally guarded Kawhi...

[tontoz]

Tatum looks like he has been hitting the weights. Noticeably bigger than he was as a rookie.

I don't get the criticism of Zion. I love his game. Being able to do so much damage inside without dominating the ball makes him unique. I do want to see him hit the defensive glass more though.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Watch the games You clearly don't. I didn't want to bust you on this but seeing as you want to go down this path you should know that the celtics starting line up when fully healthy is Walker Brown Hayward Tatum and Theis. The last thing they want to do is put Tatum on a small guard and put Walker in a size mismatch while Hayward or Brown is already dealing with the challenge of guarding a 4 and Theis is also dealing with a center he is normally smaller than. In reality Tatum mainly guards wings and occasionally gets stuck with a big. He would only take on a point guard if he was forced to by a switch. Your analysis of his defense was guesswork based on nothing. In reality he is widely being hailed as one of the top 2-way players in the game and has a solid shot at the All-D team. Ingram will not be making an appearance on that list.

[Hittin_Shots]

I like both players alot. They are really different though. I bolded the points I think Ingram has over Tatum.

Ingram's a better passer, more of a point forward. Slower game. He'll play in the high post and get to the mid post a lot with fakes/up-under etc. And he'll usually do it at a slower pace, which leads to alot of kickout passes, or pass to cutters. Which is why you see the higher assist total.

Ingram's a Better off ball player for sure at least by volume; because Tatum usually creates with the Ball. When Tatum plays off-ball he tends to do a few dribbles after getting it. Ingram tends to slide to the corner for his off ball 3, and let's it go faster. Ingram cuts ALOT and gets a lot of oops and dunks off a cut. Alot.

They both pull up for the mid-range pretty equally from what I see. They differ in spots otherwise.


Ingram is the better defender. They both are all-nba defenders for sure.

Tatum seems to defend smaller guys to cover for Kemba. Which is fine because Tatum is so fast and explosive, it's crazy. Whereas Ingram usually gets the SF/PF match up which can be scary these days. Giannis/Wiggins/Kawhi/Lebron. Ingram is good at staying in front, Tatum is good at passing lanes.

Tatum plays at the top of 3pt line alot, similar to Kemba. I'm interested to see how his playoff game looks. Tatum's baskets are high effort like a small guard. Also he has a lot of reliance on screens, especially from Kanter who's great at them. Tatum is bigger/faster/stronger/more skilled than regular season match-ups so it's working for now.

The huge uptick in stats for Tatum this month is just him doing alot of what Kemba was doing before. He's getting huge usage and ALOT of screens. And this season is proving to have high stats for that on-ball gaurd role.

I do not think this guy has watched either play

[ImKobe]

Just saw on get up that Williamson averages 29.5 points per 36 minutes. Shooting 57%.

He's not conditioned to play 36 minutes, he's yet to play more than 33 minutes in a game. FG% again is misleading since he doesn't really shoot 3s and he's a below-average FT shooter.

[Real Men Wear Green]

He's not conditioned to play 36 minutes, he's yet to play more than 33 minutes in a game. FG% again is misleading since he doesn't really shoot 3s and he's a below-average FT shooter.
The points per minute illustrates how effective he is as a scorer. The FG percentage is not misleading it shows that he is an efficient scorer. No one is saying he is a great shooter. As a dominant inside scoring threat he doesn't have to be. These things should all be obvious and not need pointing out.

[fourkicks44]

He's not conditioned to play 36 minutes, he's yet to play more than 33 minutes in a game. FG% again is misleading since he doesn't really shoot 3s and he's a below-average FT shooter.

How does his per 36 minutes compare to rookie Embiid?

[ImKobe]

How does his per 36 minutes compare to rookie Embiid?

Embiid had peak Shaq numbers per 36 minutes but he could make 3s and FTs at an above-average rate as well.


The points per minute illustrates how effective he is as a scorer. The FG percentage is not misleading it shows that he is an efficient scorer. No one is saying he is a great shooter. As a dominant inside scoring threat he doesn't have to be. These things should all be obvious and not need pointing out.

It is misleading when using it to compare to a perimeter scorer who takes over 6 threes a game and who shoots 24% better from the FT line. He needs to have the ability to shoot if he wants to be a superior scorer like you already claimed he was. Every athletic freak at his position has needed it. He's not a Center. If Bron & Giannis needed to expand their range, so does Zion, especially if he wants to have a long career as an effective scorer.

[fourkicks44]

Embiid had peak Shaq numbers per 36 minutes but he could make 3s and FTs at an above-average rate as well.

Word.

And he still didn't get ROTY.

[Real Men Wear Green]

It is misleading when using it to compare to a perimeter scorer who takes over 6 threes a game and who shoots 24% better from the FT line. He needs to have the ability to shoot if he wants to be a superior scorer like you already claimed he was. Every athletic freak at his position has needed it. He's not a Center. If Bron & Giannis needed to expand their range, so does Zion, especially if he wants to have a long career as an effective scorer.
You are misleading yourself if you think Williamson isn't already highly effective. He is averaging almost 30 points per 36 minutes and you want to pretend that he isn't already dominating his opponents? There's no argument to be made. Giannis just won MVP in a season where he hit %25.6 of his threes and will repeat in a season where he is hitting 32. Are you going to pretend that the 25.6% of his threes tht Antetokunmpo hit last season are the reason he was great? No, he's a great scorer because he's a physical specimen and an athletic freak. Which is also why no one other than Giannis has been able to deal with Williamson.

[tontoz]

Zion's TS is 61.6% so yes he is efficient even without shooting 3s.

Ingram's TS is 60.3%.

[ImKobe]

You are misleading yourself if you think Williamson isn't already highly effective. He is averaging almost 30 points per 36 minutes and you want to pretend that he isn't already dominating his opponents? There's no argument to be made. Giannis just won MVP in a season where he hit %25.6 of his threes and will repeat in a season where he is hitting 32. Are you going to pretend that the 25.6% of his threes tht Antetokunmpo hit last season are the reason he was great? No, he's a great scorer because he's a physical specimen and an athletic freak. Which is also why no one other than Giannis has been able to deal with Williamson.

He's effective yes, but that was never an argument to begin with. You said he was superior to Ingram in scoring, when Ingram averages more points and is highly efficient himself despite taking 6+ threes and a bunch of mid-range jump shots each game with Zion & Favors clogging up the paint.

And 3s aren't the only factor when it comes to extending a players' range. Giannis might still be a slightly below-average 3PT shooter but he's developed the shot enough to at least be a streaky 3-Point shooter and he takes enough mid-range shots and is effective enough to keep the defenses honest. How do you think the Raptors shut him down last season? Great defenses take away those driving lanes and defenders will sag off Zion like they've done with other forwards.

Zion's only played 14 games, the sample size is really small and the Pelicans have two other great scorers next to him + Redick & Ball to space the floor, they play at a high pace so he gets a bunch of transition opportunities against lesser teams who turn the ball over and who aren't that good defensively. Lakers gave him all kinds of trouble with their size as well, especially on the defensive side.

Look at how much Giannis' production has increased this season with him taking more jump shots and being as efficient as ever on them, he's about a 40% mid-range scorer and his 3PT% has gone up 6% (from ~26% to ~32%) while he's increased his volume from ~3 to almost 5 a game. That's called taking the next step and going from a great stats/RS guy to a future champion. Lebron needed the mid-range to swing that Boston series down 2 - 3 to get to the Finals and win his first title, Kawhi was the best player in the Playoffs last season because of his improved mid-range game. Ben Simmons was almost useless as a ballhandler in that Raptors series because of his lack of range. Zion can be a freak and average an efficient 22-25 points a game but he's not taking that next step without adding a consistent jump shot to his game.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I may reply later but for now I'm tired of this argument. Williamson's play speaks for itself.

[Kblaze8855]

He's effective yes, but that was never an argument to begin with. You said he was superior to Ingram in scoring, when Ingram averages more points and is highly efficient himself despite taking 6+ threes and a bunch of mid-range jump shots each game with Zion & Favors clogging up the paint.


BI scoring more per game feels like a thing you may not wanna base a lot of your argument on considering where things seem to be heading.

[Tking714]

You clearly don't. I didn't want to bust you on this but seeing as you want to go down this path you should know that the celtics starting line up when fully healthy is Walker Brown Hayward Tatum and Theis. The last thing they want to do is put Tatum on a small guard and put Walker in a size mismatch while Hayward or Brown is already dealing with the challenge of guarding a 4 and Theis is also dealing with a center he is normally smaller than. In reality Tatum mainly guards wings and occasionally gets stuck with a big. He would only take on a point guard if he was forced to by a switch. Your analysis of his defense was guesswork based on nothing. In reality he is widely being hailed as one of the top 2-way players in the game and has a solid shot at the All-D team. Ingram will not be making an appearance on that list.

I said watch the games, in reference to the two games I mentioned in my post. Not an accusation of you not watching any games. Us spinning this into a hypothetical who watches more games is not what I'm here for. Especially given the context of my post.

I stated to cover for Kemba, who's missed a lot of games. Tatum has filled his role with huge success. Especially during this run. Tatum defends the smaller guys because he's fast, it's not a knock on him. When healthy the Nets line-up would have Kyrie, but we also need to include all the games without him for our analysis of the nets/Dinwiddie, since it's a big sample size, like Tatum/Kemba. We can't rely on "when healthy" solely.

BBall Breakdown just posted a Tatum video this morning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK5P2qzb070

He's saying a lot of what I posted about Tatum's offense. Especially about the screens and difficult shots. But there is a chance he doesn't watch the games either.

I came here for a clear comparison both. I like both players. They are both good.

I'm not gonna say Tatum is this All-world defender that Ingram can't hold a candle to if that's not what's happening.

[CelticBaller]

I said watch the games, in reference to the two games I mentioned in my post. Not an accusation of you not watching any games. Us spinning this into a hypothetical who watches more games is not what I'm here for. Especially given the context of my post.

I stated to cover for Kemba, who's missed a lot of games. Tatum has filled his role with huge success. Especially during this run. Tatum defends the smaller guys because he's fast, it's not a knock on him. When healthy the Nets line-up would have Kyrie, but we also need to include all the games without him for our analysis of the nets/Dinwiddie, since it's a big sample size, like Tatum/Kemba. We can't rely on "when healthy" solely.

BBall Breakdown just posted a Tatum video this morning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK5P2qzb070

He's saying a lot of what I posted about Tatum's offense. Especially about the screens and difficult shots. But there is a chance he doesn't watch the games either.

I came here for a clear comparison both. I like both players. They are both good.

I'm not gonna say Tatum is this All-world defender that Ingram can't hold a candle to if that's not what's happening.

Yet no mention of him defending guys like Kawhi and Paul George...

[Real Men Wear Green]

I said watch the games, in reference to the two games I mentioned in my post. Not an accusation of you not watching any games. Us spinning this into a hypothetical who watches more games is not what I'm here for. Especially given the context of my post.

I stated to cover for Kemba, who's missed a lot of games. Tatum has filled his role with huge success. Especially during this run. Tatum defends the smaller guys because he's fast, it's not a knock on him. When healthy the Nets line-up would have Kyrie, but we also need to include all the games without him for our analysis of the nets/Dinwiddie, since it's a big sample size, like Tatum/Kemba. We can't rely on "when healthy" solely.

BBall Breakdown just posted a Tatum video this morning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK5P2qzb070

He's saying a lot of what I posted about Tatum's offense. Especially about the screens and difficult shots. But there is a chance he doesn't watch the games either.

I came here for a clear comparison both. I like both players. They are both good.

I'm not gonna say Tatum is this All-world defender that Ingram can't hold a candle to if that's not what's happening.

So you are basing your whole opinion on his defense on something he doesn't do (defending point guards) and ignoring performances like the last Clippers game where he shut down Kawhi Leonard. Ok.

[CelticBaller]

So you are basing your whole opinion on his defense on something he doesn't do (defending point guards) and ignoring performances like the last Clippers game where he shut down Kawhi Leonard. Ok.

He’s been guarding 6’6 Harden in the 4th :lol

[Tking714]

HeÂ’s been guarding 6Â’6 Harden in the 4th :lol

So are you laughing because he's guarding the rockets point guard (harden)? Because Real Men just stated that Tatum doesn't guard point guards. But you; Celtics Baller, just stated he's guarding Harden; the rockets point guard. It's a blatant contradiction, unless we're gonna argue that Harden isn't their PG. But come on. (And yes I'm aware harden splits pg duty with Westbrook; who Tatum was guarding for a bit as well)

And also I didn't ignore Tatum guarding Kawhi or George ever. I just didn't mention anything other than the 2 (now 3) most recent games for the sake of a shorter post. I referenced very recent games where he's done the very thing I mentioned. I can go back further I guess.

In comparing players you discuss what players do more/better than the other. And Tatum tends to guard guards more than Ingram. Which was what I originally said.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Do you really think anyone doesn't know thr difference between defending Harden and defending a normal size pg? Why even bother with a reply like that?

[CelticBaller]

So are you laughing because he's guarding the rockets point guard (harden)? Because Real Men just stated that Tatum doesn't guard point guards. But you; Celtics Baller, just stated he's guarding Harden; the rockets point guard. It's a blatant contradiction, unless we're gonna argue that Harden isn't their PG. But come on. (And yes I'm aware harden splits pg duty with Westbrook; who Tatum was guarding for a bit as well)

And also I didn't ignore Tatum guarding Kawhi or George ever. I just didn't mention anything other than the 2 (now 3) most recent games for the sake of a shorter post. I referenced very recent games where he's done the very thing I mentioned. I can go back further I guess.

In comparing players you discuss what players do more/better than the other. And Tatum tends to guard guards more than Ingram. Which was what I originally said.

Westbrook was guarded by brown and smart

You don’t watch games clown. You argued that Tatum guarded “small guys” yet he was guarding a guy who is legit 6’5 without shoes. Dumbass

[AirBonner]

Only so much Tatum could do. Still a tough loss while missing the offense and defense Kemba would have provided