How many rings for 09' Dwight if he teamed up with Wade/Bosh instead of LeBron?

[3ball]

Or how many for Dirk?

Dirk's 8 seed nearly beat the 14' Spurs as massive underdogs, so he would've destroyed the Spurs with Lebron's even money odds and cast

[warriorfan]

3 peat at least

[Meticode]

None. Yes, I legit feel this way.

[Manny98]

1 for both

[warriorfan]

They would be a the best defensive team in the league. Dwight down low with long and athletic Bosh helping on the weak side. Wade has always been a bully at the guard position and a great defender. They would be bigger and more athletic than any team. Wade and Dwight pick and roll with Bosh spacing, slashing, scoring from everywhere. They would be near unstoppable.

[Ainosterhaspie]

What are you even talking about? Are we transporting 09 Dwight to 11 Heat. Is he teaming with those guys in 09? Are you putting him with the Heat in 11 instead of LeBron, i.e. you're really asking how many titles for '11 Dwight.

Peak Dwight was a monster player, a defensive force though offensively limited. If you put 09, 10 and 11 Dwight on the '11, '12 and '13 Heat, you're getting three really good years, but in year four his back is gone and he was a shell of himself ever since so the Heat are maxing out at three titles in that scenario.

The other issue is he saw himself as an effective post player. He wasn't. But his insistence on getting post touches capped his teams' ceiling, because they were forced to waste possessions on post ups to keep him happy. Perhaps Riley would keep him in line since Riley tends to bend players to his will, but Dwight's personality is one that may have shut down had Riley tried that leading to dissension in the locker room and a toxic environment. See Dwight's clashes with Kobe as exhibit A there.

But assuming a counterfactual world where Dwight swallows his pride and gives up his post ups, and that we are transplanting peak 09-11 Dwight so we get three good years instead of 11-14 Dwight who gives only one good year, how does that team do?

Defensively they are probably much improved. Centers are simply far more impactful defenders especially elite defensive centers like Dwight. Not only that, but the 11-14 Heat had lousy center options except for the brief Chris Anderson period beginning midway through '13. So Dwight isn't just a slight upgrade at the most important defensive position, he's a massive upgrade.

Not only that, his presence would allow the Heat to employ an entirely different defensive system instead of the high energy show and recover system they developed to counter their lack of interior defense. This may have kept players fresher and perhaps helped Wade avoid some of the wear that led to mounting injuries, though his knees were messed up already so who knows.

Of course whoever's fills in for James as a defender at the three spot would be a significant defensive downgrade, but that wouldn't offset the improvement at the five even with an atrocious defender. Bottom line is the Heat's defense gets much better.

[Ainosterhaspie]

On the offensive side, Dwight is a major downgrade as an offensive weapon. He was never in LeBron's tier as an offensive weapon and wasn't ever close to being so. He'd be an improvement over the guys the Heat actually had wasting minutes at that position, but that's not saying much.

He doesn't space the floor at all meaning he's not fixing the Bosh getting turned into a spot up shooter problem. Wade wasn't an outside shooter either. So spacing isbatarting to look like a problem. Of the big three the only one with a good outside shot is Bosh and he was more of a long two guy. That's not helping spacing much and not giving efficient scoring.

If the Heat can't find a decent shooter to take LeBron's spot, then the problem is even worse. Keep in mind with all the cap going to the big three, the same problem that faced the actual Heat limits this Heat team, no money and no assets to pick pieces. You have to pick up scraps to fill need and end up with a decent defender who can't shoot, or a decent shooter who can't defend if you're lucky.

Then you have the question of who is running the offense. Wade can handle those duties well, but can't do it all the time, especially with increasing health problems. And any time he is having an off game or is out injured or resting, the Heat's offense is screwed.

The offense when not being run by Wade is in the hands of Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole. They were decent role players, but never had to carry a heavy offensive load and aren't suited to that role. The Heat's offense would be heavily dependent on Wade. Bosh is a decent complimentary piece, but never demonstrated an ability to sustain quality offense.

Spoelstra while a quality coach never demonstrated a mastery of creating a quality offensive system, so that's not the solution either. Bottom line offensively is the Heat are a mid tier offensive team with flashes of quality when Wade is on, and which struggles mightily when he isn't.

So what you end up with is probably a team that has elite defense, but has middle of the road offense due to lack of spacing.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I see them losing to the Bulls in '11. Wade struggled in that series, and LeBron carried the offense much of the time. Without LeBron as a pressure release valve, Wade probably struggles more. That series becomes a long defensive grind instead of the relatively smooth mop up it was and the Heat end up losing.

In 12 with Bosh going down against the Pacers the Heat are in real trouble. LeBron and Wade both had great offensive production that series and Howard isn't replacing LeBron's output on that end. Fortunately for them, Howard probably shuts down the Pacers inside game helping to mitigate the Heat's reduced offensive production. Maybe they squeak out the win.

But then they face the Celtics with Bosh still injured for muchof the series. Howard and Wade are probably capable of winning that series too, but here's the thing. I dont think they actually pull out both series. They could probably win either one, but I dont see them winning both. LeBron had a monstrous game six in the garden and Wade isnt replicating that. There was a time he could, but that time was already past.

In 13 they're in even bigger trouble because Wade entered the post season hampered by knee troubles. He had moments of brilliance interspersed with moments of mediocrity. Bosh and Howard aren't picking up the slack. They dont make the finals that year, or if they do they aren't beating the Spurs.

14 is a non starter because since we started with 09 Dwight we now have 12 Dwight who missed a bunch of time with a bad back which needed surgery. He was never the same player again.

I don't see them winning any titles, though I could see them getting 1 or 2 if things break just right. This is without even considering James being out there with his own team that the Heat have to go through.

[ShawkFactory]

So like...Dwight > Lebron? Is that what we’re getting at?

[Ainosterhaspie]

Not sure what to make of the team with Dirk because now they have two fours and cant play a real center. At least bosh and Dirk are tall, but their interior defense is going to be suspect especially against bigger players. Not that there were large numbers of those dudes to worry about, but the Hibbert/West problem persists.

The lane is probably opened up for Wade to drive with Bosh and Dirk stepping out as actual shooting threats. This is probably a very good, top five sort of offense and 10-20 range defense. The sort of team that is a threat to win any given year, but which cant string together a dominant run. You need better defense for that.

I'll say 1-3 titles for this team. Likely to get one, decent odds to get two long shot to get threem. Three is their cap

[Ainosterhaspie]

So like...Dwight > Lebron? Is that what we’re getting at?

No. OP is saying Jordan>LeBron. Every word he types about basketball is for the purpose of furthering that premise.

[3ball]

1 for both
Yes it makes perfect sense - Dirk's big underdog that nearly beat the 14' Spurs would still lose with Lebron's even money team.

That makes sense... sigh

Of course, you're just thinking about the propoganda that Clutch Sports put out there - that 14' Wade was garbage and the reason for the loss.

But 13/14 Wade was still putting up peak Pippen numbers (21/5/5) with much better PER.. So when I complain about Pippen, think about 13/14 Wade and then you'll understand.. Even Wade's 14' Playoffs was superior to 93' Pippen's playoff PER, ws/48 and obpm, and included 20/5/5 on 49% in the ECF.

^^^ that's better than any teammate 14' Dirk had on the 8-seeded Mavs, as are Bosh and Allen.. So Dirk would likely win in 2014 in addition to 2011..

And Lebron was a net negative in the 2013 Finals and averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games while his teammates fought to avoid a 3-0 deficit - furthermore, his jumper and poor fit with Wade was famously exploited and eventually perfected in 2014.. Dirk wouldn't have these issues and easily win in 2013 - 2013 would be the easiest ring because the cast was peaking - Lebron simply sucked in that series... The only ring that Dirk loses is 2012 because Durant would be too much.

[Hey Yo]

Starting line-up of

Bibby
Wade
Dirk
Bosh
J. Anthony is going to win it all in 2011??

:oldlol:

[Ainosterhaspie]

Yes it makes perfect sense - Dirk's big underdog that nearly beat the 14' Spurs would still lose with Lebron's even money team.

That makes sense... sigh
LeBron averaged 28ppg with a .679 TS% against the Spurs in '14. Dirk averaged 19 with a pathetic .480 TS% against the Spurs that same year. He was outscored by his teammate Monta Ellis who scored 5 ppg than Wade managed against the Spurs that year on similar shooting percentage. So you're taking the lesser two scorers that season in Wade and Nowinski, instead of the better two scorers James and Ellis, a pair who averaged a combined 14 ppg less vs the Spurs that season on much worse efficiency and expecting a better result?

You replace James with Nowitski and right off the bat you're nine points behind and that's before you account for all Dirk's misses setting up transition opportunities for the Spurs.

Dirk wasn't as good a defender as James that year for sure, and not often in other years if at all, and certainly wasn't going to shut down the three point barrage that devastated the Heat defense.

You think Dirk's spacing with his sub 43% shooting from the field and 1/12 shooting from three is opening lanes for Wade's creaky knees to exploit? Or that he's going to somehow save Bosh from getting embarrassed by old man Duncan.

Basketball is about more than the big names. There are several other guys that impact how a series play out, but you routinely ignore all of that and only focus on the stars, assuming that the results are entirely due to the stars' play. That's how we get idiotic takes like swapping Dirk and James in '14 swings things in the Heat's favor.

LMFAO

[red1]

Or how many for Dirk?

Dirk's 8 seed nearly beat the 14' Spurs as massive underdogs, so he would've destroyed the Spurs with Lebron's even money odds and cast

there's a good chance they'd go 1-9 in the playoffs.

[tpols]

The other issue is he saw himself as an effective post player. He wasn't.



In '09? He was absolutely dominant in the poast. Dunk after dunk after dunk. The back injury a few years later killed his spryness and flexibility to manuever.



On the offensive side, Dwight is a major downgrade as an offensive weapon.


obviously Dwight's a worse offensive player than lebron, but he also didnt dominate the ball at all. His game was to seal his defender off deep, 1-2 dribble max and dunk it. He wouldnt have hamstringed Wade's game because Wade wouldve had tons of time to dribble which was his game. Bosh might still be used in a rashard lewis role and that'd be alright.

Theyd basically be like the '09 magic, who almost won a title, except youre replacing hedo turkeyglue with dwayne ****ing wade.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Don't see it happening with Dirk Heat in 2013 either. He missed first third of the season with injury and overall had an off year. Then Wade messes up his knee late and was struggling with it throughout the playoffs. Bottom line that would be a very difficult season for them. They probably get a mid to low seed, don't have home field after first round if that, never really gel, and have weak defense. Surprised if they make the finals, much less win it.

[FireDavidKahn]

We saw what prime Dwight was like with other superstars...he shut it down and became a cancer. He just couldn't accept in his prime that he wasn't the #1.

[warriorfan]

We saw what prime Dwight was like with other superstars...he shut it down and became a cancer. He just couldn't accept in his prime that he wasn't the #1.

Don’t forget this is the guy that forced LeBron to make a super team

[Smoke117]

Only a retard like 3ball would think the Heat would have been better with a far inferior player like Dwight instead of LeBron. I thought he was gonna be permabanned already for his obsessive stupidity, kblaze? That cleaning up the board rhetoric didn't last long did it?

[FireDavidKahn]

Don’t forget this is the guy that forced LeBron to make a super team
You saw what happened with Kobe and Harden. He refused to take a back seat on offense. That caused his whole play to suffer and become a cancer for a while. He's been humbled and now excepts who he is now.

Dwight proved through his entire prime that he couldn't coexist with another superstar. Why would y ou think it would work in this hypothetical?

[Nike D'Antoni]

With Howard,and Wade spacing would be so shit. What made Miami strong is slicing Bosh to C, and space the floor.
0 TITLES.

[Axe]

Don’t forget this is the guy that forced LeBron to make a super team
In 2010? So it wasn't the Celtics that led him to make one, after all?

[BarberSchool]

Zero.

Dwight was, is and forever will be a horribly overrated and overstated player.

[DoctorP]

yes. um. good

https://media3.giphy.com/media/qrURsXtrfKGek/giphy.gif

[ImKobe]

You saw what happened with Kobe and Harden. He refused to take a back seat on offense. That caused his whole play to suffer and become a cancer for a while. He's been humbled and now excepts who he is now.

Dwight proved through his entire prime that he couldn't coexist with another superstar. Why would y ou think it would work in this hypothetical?

He wasn't the same athletic freak after his back injury. Him and Kobe actually did great the 2nd half of the season and made the Playoffs despite all the injuries and no bench. He averaged 26/14 with 2.8 blocks against Portland when Harden choked the series away in 2014. They made the WCF next year and he had monster nights all playoffs. Averaged 19/17 in the 3 elimination games in that comeback against the Clippers with 3 straight 15+/15+ games to make the WCF. He bitched about his touches but at the end of the day he did take a back seat on offense and was really efficient at it in those 3 seasons and is still one of the more efficient players in the league, averaging 8/8 with 1.3 blocks on 74%FG in just 19.7 mpg. He hasn't averaged below 70% inside 3 ft in the last 14 years, this season he's at his career-high of 82.7%.


With Howard,and Wade spacing would be so shit. What made Miami strong is slicing Bosh to C, and space the floor.
0 TITLES.

They would have likely built the team differently to get the most out of Dwight. It's not like Lebron was much of a shooter when they won in 2012. Wade could have been the de-facto PG with Bosh adapting to the stretch 4 role and with Ray Allen and Battier on the wings. They had enough shooting to make it work. 09-11 Howard was on a different level defensively.

[BarberSchool]

In '09? He was absolutely dominant in the poast. Dunk after dunk after dunk. The back injury a few years later killed his spryness and flexibility to manuever.


You’re right that the back injury killed his spryness and flexibility, but you’re wrong that he was ever dominant “in the post”. He was a dominant FINISHER. Which is very different and inferior to “in the post”.

“Being dominant IN THE POST” means no setup/playmaking is required by teammates, they simply dump the ball into you on the block and YOU ARE THE PLAYMAKER.

Dwight was never good (& definitely not dominant) when dribbling/pivoting/shot-faking/spinning WITH THE BALL IN HIS HAND. He was much more effective when ANOTHER PLAYER made the play, he was able to MOVE WITHOUT THE BALL, and CATCH & FINISH.

Dwight was just Amare Stoudamire + rim protection/rebounding + big deltoids, and no all time great PG feeding him.

[Lebron23]

there's a good chance they'd go 1-9 in the playoffs.

You burned 3ball. Heat team aren't going to win a title with DH12 as your best player.

[Ainosterhaspie]

You burned 3ball. Heat team aren't going to win a title with DH12 as your best player.

He wouldn't have been their best player. That would have been Wade.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Zero.

Dwight was, is and forever will be a horribly overrated and overstated player.

Dwight was dominant, but he wasn't a first option scorer for a championship team. He needed to focus on defense and scoring in the flow of the offense, and not demand plays be running for him to post up. But if he'd have had a second star, an elite or even very good perimeter scorer to be the go to guy, he could have had a dominant run prior to the back injury.

Airball goes way overboard acting like the Magic were Dwight plus a bunch of scrubs. It was a well constructed team balanced around his strengths for the most part, but it did lack the primary offensive creator that would have taken them to the next level.

People tend to underrate guys who aren't primary options, but who can be dominant in the role of second option and defensive anchor.

[warriorfan]

You burned 3ball. Heat team aren't going to win a title with DH12 as your best player.

Why is that? What teams should have Dwight won a championship with? LeBron lost twice with Wade and Bosh and apparently it’s not a big deal. If LeBron lost with Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis all we would hear is how Lebron “didn’t have enough help.”

[Ainosterhaspie]

You burned 3ball. Heat team aren't going to win a title with DH12 as your best player.

You can win with prime Dwight as your best player, but probably not if he's you're best offensive player.

[Hey Yo]

Don’t forget this is the guy that forced LeBron to make a super team

Don't forget, LeBron's the guy that made the 2015 Champion Warriors recruit KD the entire 2016 season. Then they really cried and begged KD after the biggest choke job in NBA Finals history.

[warriorfan]

Don't forget, LeBron's the guy that made the 2015 Champion Warriors recruit KD the entire 2016 season. Then they really cried and begged KD after the biggest choke job in NBA Finals history.

Don’t forget

That you are having a meltdown

[Hey Yo]

Posting facts that handed you your ass, isn't a meltdown.

you lose again, chico

[Keno]

zero. that trio sounds terrible on paper and would be terrible on the court as well. LeGOAT stay winning.

[j3lademaster]

Starting line-up of

Bibby
Wade
Dirk
Bosh
J. Anthony is going to win it all in 2011??

:oldlol:do you actually understand basketball? That lineup would dominate in 2011. He’s actually a much better fit as dirk doesnt need the ball nearly as much allowing wade to be the primary playmaker and allowing bosh to play his inside/out game. On top of being a better fit, Dirk was probably even a better player than Lebron in a vacuum.
Also probably playing dirk and bosh at the 4 and 5. Sf would be mike miller and lets be real, riley would have gotten a better sf if he didnt land lebron.

[Axe]

Don't forget, LeBron's the guy that made the 2015 Champion Warriors recruit KD the entire 2016 season. Then they really cried and begged KD after the biggest choke job in NBA Finals history.
Well, that was history.

[Mr Exlax]

I'm the biggest Dwight fan on this planet. He wins 0 with that team. He just does not have the skillset to mask the holes in that roster like LBJ did. I'll be honest I never saw the Heat winning that many. The talent on the roster was so top heavy and not that complimentary of their skillsets.

[CelticBaller]

None. Yes, I legit feel this way.
You’re stupid

Prime Dwight was a top 3 player in the league. They win at least one ring