Over last 30 games, Pelicans 8-7 with Zion, 11-4 without

[Marchesk]

Zion has been beasting, he does have that special it factor. But everyone is acting like he's the sole reason the Pelicans have turned things around.

When in reality, the turnaround happened after their franchise record breaking 13 game losing streak. Favors coming back to give them a presence inside was part of it. Lonzo playing much better was another reason, along with the improved play of Melli. At any rate, the Pelicans were 10-4 leading up to Zion's first game, and they won the one game he sat out since then.

The Pelicans are more than Zion. They have a ton of depth and lots of players who can score like Holiday, Ingram and Reddick. NO actually has the third best 3P shooting percentage in the league. I notice how whenever Zion is in the game, the rest of his team, particularly Ingram, don't even register for the commentators.

AD never had this good of a team around him in NO. I'd be extremely excited for the future as a Pelicans fan, but I think they might have too many players who need the ball for next season. You can't have Lonzo, Ingram and Holiday all dominating the ball if they're going to end up running the offense through Zion. Not long term, anyway.

[RRR3]

This guy is seething about Zion.

[Marchesk]

This guy is seething about Zion.

Zion: 42 turnover, 25 fouls, 11 steals, 5 blocks, 114 defensive rating.

He's a beast offensively. Team does real well on offense when he's on the court. Has a ways to go defensively.

[Andrei89]

Zion: 42 turnover, 25 fouls, 11 steals, 5 blocks, 114 defensive rating.

He's a beast offensively. Team does real well on offense when he's on the court. Has a ways to go defensively.

So mad lul

[Bankaii]

Look at the teams they’ve lost to with Zion... Lakers twice, Nuggets, OKC, Bucks, Rockets, Bucks.
Without him they’ve beat a couple impressive teams but it includes the Kings, Bulls, Knicks, Pistons...
It’s also interesting how you cut it off at 30 games, right before that massive L streak.
Quit cherry-picking.

[sd3035]

Zion is already better than Wilt ever was

[Marchesk]

It’s also interesting how you cut it off at 30 games, right before that massive L streak.
Quit cherry-picking.

It's in response to the commentators during the Lakers game saying the Pelicans turned things around when Zion came back, which was false. Yeah, they stunk first half of the season. Then the team started playing better after the 13 game losing streak, then Zion came back.

I'm only arguing against the blinding hype narrative which all of you seem blind to, because you're stanning the dude and not seeing how it's disrespectful to his teammates, or how it's only been 15 games and he's not an all-time great yet.

[FireDavidKahn]

It's in response to the commentators during the Lakers game saying the Pelicans turned things around when Zion came back, which was false. Yeah, they stunk first half of the season. Then the team started playing better after the 13 game losing streak, then Zion came back.

I'm only arguing against the blinding hype narrative which all of you seem blind to, because you're stanning the dude and not seeing how it's disrespectful to his teammates, or how it's only been 15 games and he's not an all-time great yet.

No, muh young core was playing bad and then Favors came back which coincided with them winning and now Zion has provided them with another boost.

[FireDavidKahn]

Zion: 42 turnover, 25 fouls, 11 steals, 5 blocks, 114 defensive rating.

He's a beast offensively. Team does real well on offense when he's on the court. Has a ways to go defensively.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612740/onoffcourt-advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

The only people on the Pelicans that have a positive rating are

Zion: +11.1
Favors: +4.2

The rest are negative.

[scuzzy]

No, muh young core was playing bad and then Favors came back which coincided with them winning and now Zion has provided them with another boost.
:applause:

[superduper]

Ingram haters aka Bran stans are straight up seething right now :oldlol:

[superduper]

No, muh young core was playing bad and then Favors came back which coincided with them winning and now Zion has provided them with another boost.

Lakers with Bran without AD = lottery
Lakers with Bran with AD = best in the west

Simple.

[ImKobe]

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612740/onoffcourt-advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

The only people on the Pelicans that have a positive rating are

Zion: +11.1
Favors: +4.2

The rest are negative.

NBA.com's stats are inaccurate, no way in hell is Zion's DRTG 102 like the site claims, it's total horseshit. He actually has a 116 ORTG 114 DRTG per Basketball-Reference.

[superduper]

NBA.com's stats are inaccurate, no way in hell is Zion's DRTG 102 like the site claims, it's total horseshit. He actually has a 116 ORTG 114 DRTG per Basketball-Reference.

You lose the second you try to debate with people that think basketball is a Microsoft Excel formula.

[ImKobe]

You lose the second you try to debate with people that think basketball is a Microsoft Excel formula.

It's simple. These people don't watch games. It's fine to use stats to back up the eye test, but Zion's not a good defensive player. He obviously makes the Pelicans a better team (as do all the other starters on that squad), but you're not going to convince me that he's the only net-positive player other than Favors, that's just stupid.

[Docs Orders]

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612740/onoffcourt-advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

The only people on the Pelicans that have a positive rating are

Zion: +11.1
Favors: +4.2

The rest are negative.

:lebronamazed:l:cheers:

[RoseCity07]

Empty stats.

[Marchesk]

It's simple. These people don't watch games. It's fine to use stats to back up the eye test, but Zion's not a good defensive player.

He's also not that good of a defensive rebounder for a big. So far, his impact is all on the offensive side. That could change, but right now he doesn't put in the same effort on defense. Maybe the team wants him to not go too hard on that end? Or he's just a 19 year old rookie still figuring it out. But for someone as physically powerful as him, he doesn't get a lot of defensive rebounds or blocks, and guys can beat him off the dribble for layups.

[FireDavidKahn]

NBA.com's stats are inaccurate, no way in hell is Zion's DRTG 102 like the site claims, it's total horseshit. He actually has a 116 ORTG 114 DRTG per Basketball-Reference.

So when facts go against your biased narrative, they suck?:roll:

[superduper]

Bran stans using stats as their bibles are going to regret it in the end in this clownfest era when no skill fools like Giannis are getting the highest PER of all time :oldlol:

Keep basing your Bran cawk slobbing entirely on stats, it's only going to fall on your face in the end.

[Kblaze8855]

I’m gonna give it about 18 months till you are full 3ball on Zion.

[ImKobe]

So when facts go against your biased narrative, they suck?:roll:

Obviously he can't have a 102 DRTG if you've actually watched the games, he isn't a good defensive player and the Pelicans are giving up 110-120+ almost every night. He's not a defensive stopper. 102 DRTG is elite in this era, that's not happening on a team that runs as much as the Pelicans do. Zion has the worst DRTG among all starters (Redick isn't a starter anymore or he would be the worst) according to BB-Ref and that's accurate when watching the games. Favors obviously has the best since they struggled defensively without him.

[FireDavidKahn]

Obviously he can't have a 102 DRTG if you've actually watched the games, he isn't a good defensive player and the Pelicans are giving up 110-120+ almost every night. He's not a defensive stopper. 102 DRTG is elite in this era, that's not happening on a team that runs as much as the Pelicans do. Zion has the worst DRTG among all starters (Redick isn't a starter anymore or he would be the worst) according to BB-Ref and that's accurate when watching the games. Favors obviously has the best since they struggled defensively without him.

1) The Pelicans defense has improved since Zion came back. Before Zion came back they were giving up 117.6 points on 91 FGA, 46.7%/36.5 and since Zion came back they are giving up 114.8 on 95.3 FGA 46.1%/32.8%. Pretty clear defensive improvement.

2) It's the backups which are dragging the teams DRTG down.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612740/onoffcourt-advanced/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=01%2F22%2F2020&sort=MIN&dir=1

The starters are great defensively.

[Phoenix]

He's also not that good of a defensive rebounder for a big. So far, his impact is all on the offensive side. That could change, but right now he doesn't put in the same effort on defense. Maybe the team wants him to not go too hard on that end? Or he's just a 19 year old rookie still figuring it out. But for someone as physically powerful as him, he doesn't get a lot of defensive rebounds or blocks, and guys can beat him off the dribble for layups.

Was he projected to come into the league as a defensive standout? A rookie understanding the nuances of NBA defenses at a high level would be a pretty rare thing. The thing is, with his body type he's not likely to ever be any kind of lockdown defender, not going to have the lateral mobility to do that. He can improve as a team defender, and he can improve as a defensive rebounder...but we're talking a 14 game sample.

[Axe]

Man how i wish zion was drafted by an eastern team last year instead. Kinda tired of seeing how the west is already stacked for several years.

[Marchesk]

Man how i wish zion was drafted by an eastern team last year instead. Kinda tired of seeing how the west is already stacked for several years.

Zion was made for Madison Square Garden. But God hates the Knicks.

How is it even possible for the Pelicans to get two generational talents the last 8 years, and the Knicks to trade the only potential superstar for nothing?

[Marchesk]

Make that 8-8. Bad defensive game for the Pelicans. How do you give up 139 points at home to a team missing their best player?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

As dominant as he is in the paint hes one of the worst defensive bigs in the league right now

[GimmeThat]

I can't be the only one that remembered the days when Shaq routinely fouled out, and Lebron routinely had internet stans screaming about the no-calls.

[Axe]

Zion was made for Madison Square Garden. But God hates the Knicks.

How is it even possible for the Pelicans to get two generational talents the last 8 years, and the Knicks to trade the only potential superstar for nothing?
Yeah, they just had AD 8 years ago and last year, they're very lucky they got this guy. The saddest part is the Knicks probably intended to lose more than 60 games last year in hopes of acquiring him but as usual, nothing happened out of it.

[plowking]

OP has always been a pretty terrible poster.

[ImKobe]

OP has always been a pretty terrible poster.

8-8 with Zion, 11 - 4 without in the last 31 games now? Can't even beat the lowly Wolves missing their best player, AT HOME?

[Smoke117]

8-8 with Zion, 11 - 4 without in the last 31 games now? Can't even beat the lowly Wolves missing their best player, AT HOME?

True. The Pelicans should trade Zion away while they can, right? :rolleyes: :facepalm. ImKobrick at it again as usual. :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

True. The Pelicans should trade Zion away while they can, right? :rolleyes: :facepalm. ImKobrick at it again as usual. :oldlol:

That's not what me or OP said. He merely pointed out that the Pelicans turned their season around before Zion and that it had a lot to do with Favors finally coming back. I don't think it's far-fetched to say that the Pelicans have too many players that demand the ball right now. I've heard most people agree that they should try to move Holiday to build around their young core, the two point guard thing doesn't work that well offensively, though I do like Jrue & Zo on the defensive side.

They need to move Holiday for depth because that's what they're sorely lacking and they need to unleash Lonzo completely along with trusting BI to shoot more in 4th quarters. Zion can be that dominant guy through 3 & 1/2 quarters but Ingram needs to be in the closer role. Zion's a great player and he'll help the Pelicans win a bunch of games in the future if he stays healthy.

[Marchesk]

They need to move Holiday for depth because that's what they're sorely lacking and they need to unleash Lonzo completely along with trusting BI to shoot more in 4th quarters. Zion can be that dominant guy through 3 & 1/2 quarters but Ingram needs to be in the closer role. Zion's a great player and he'll help the Pelicans win a bunch of games in the future if he stays healthy.

Agreed. Trade Holiday for depth inside. I'm impressed with how well Lonzo has been playing second half of the season. But the Pelicans seem to forget about Ingram in the fourth, or they seem confused as to who should be the go to guy when the game gets tight late.

[Marchesk]

I’m gonna give it about 18 months till you are full 3ball on Zion.

If Zion is 3rd year Lebron in 18 months, I'll eat it. But for now, I'm sticking with everyone overhyping him when it's at the expense of his teammates or comparing him to an all-time great. I've quoted facts about records and stats. And I'll give Zion his credit offensively. He's better than I thought he would be this early on coming back form injury. But he's not putting forth much effort on defense so far. They just gave up 139 points to a team missing KAT, and Minny scored 72 inside the paint.

Pelicans still have a decent shot at the 8th spot with their softer schedule compared to Memphis, and getting to play them twice. But if they do make it to play the Lakers in the first round, it won't be just because of Zion.

[Kblaze8855]

He’s like 15 games in and playing at a level that would get him into the hall of fame coming off a serious injury only 30 games removed from being a high schooler. That you have already dedicated yourself to hate is absolutely amazing. One of the best recent examples of nothing being good enough for a dedicated detractor. You managed to reach a point where you can dismiss a borderline child beating up on 10 year vets playing superstar ball with no experience and feel like you are the one being fair. That’s a poor sign of things to come. The kinda shit that shows it won’t really matter what he does. This is hate for hates sake and it’s crazy you reached this point so quickly.

Youre gonna be talking shit at his HOF induction(assuming health) and join the long sad ranks of guys who spend a whole career not appreciating what’s in front of them because they have to look for an angle to downplay it.

Just a weak way to be a fan and limiting your own enjoyment for no good reason.

[Docs Orders]

Zion Williamson named Rookie of the Month :applause:


Lebron James named player of the Month :applause:



The Fam suffering from success :bowdown:

[Marchesk]

blah blah blah.

Way to dismiss everything I said. And you're also wrong.

[zeerghit]

8-8 with Zion, 11 - 4 without in the last 31 games now? Can't even beat the lowly Wolves missing their best player, AT HOME?

so what about ur boy ingram? what is record with an without him??

[ImKobe]

so what about ur boy ingram? what is record with an without him??

They beat Indy without him and Clippers without Kawhi, other wins are against losing teams, lost to every other good team without him and it's a small sample size. It's like using the Bucks record without Giannis/Middleton to say they're better without them. Zion sat out for the majority of the season and other starters were injured in those games as well, they turned it around once they got healthy.

[Stanley Kobrick]

so what about ur boy ingram? what is record with an without him??

Pelicans are 5-3 without Ingram

[Kblaze8855]

Way to dismiss everything I said. And you're also wrong.


Of course I dismiss everything you say. You have managed in a few short weeks to establish yourself as a dedicated hater....all of which are to be totally dismissed. You think anyone reads 3balls posts on Lebron and takes them serious? Only other dedicated Lebron haters. Not normal people. Nobody takes a guys biggest detractors serious. If youre willing to go all hate all the time on a 19 year old who is already playing at a star level there is nowhere for you to go but down.

You are nothing but the new edition of the clowns hating on Lebron here in 03. Every iteration of you for every young player along this line has kept it up forever regardless of what they do. I told people on here they would hate on Kobe even if he won without Shaq. They did. I told people they didnt actually care what Lebron accomplished....they would hate. 4 MVPs and 3 rings later....same haters making the same points. Youre hating on a kid doing as well as he is already....youre on a path of eternal irrational hate and you should and will be considered a no credibility joke from here on to most normal fans who slowly realize it.

Youre gonna talk shit and be laughed at by normal people for the next 10-15 years barring injury....and be cosigned by a few other haters who will also be considered trolls by normal fans.

Its an endless cycle of young phenoms coming into the league with haters pretending they will eat their words and stop when ____ does something...only to move the bar in order to keep hating. Talking about if hes 3rd year Lebron in 18 months you will stop. This is exactly what will happen....

He will be monstrously productive while winning nothing of note in 18 months(the start of his 3rd season....September 2021) exactly as Lebron was and you wont give a damn. You dont care hes productive now. Hes putting up 28 a game on 61% shooting his last ten and here you are. But if hes doing something similar to Lebrons 31/7/6 from 06 in his 3rd year you are gonna admit you were wrong? Its entirely possible hes doing that next year. Lebron did it in what....40-42 minutes a game? Zion might well be a 29/8 guy next year in less minutes and you wont give a shit.

Youre gonna hate anyway because thats what the new versions of you always do. Youre too far gone and you arrived in only like 6 weeks. People like you are impossible to avoid in sports no matter how wrong they always are in the end. Theres only 2 ways this goes. Zion goes to the hall of fame....or he gets injured. You will only not look like a jackass if he goes down.....which hurts the entire sport. But thats where it is now. There is no way hes not all time productive for the next decade+ barring injury. And Lebron was nothing but productive and losing for many years. But you wont see the parallel because haters never do.

[Kblaze8855]

He doesnt need to go down top 3-10 all time to justify praise as a 19 year old feasting on the league. Every great young player gets compared to existing greats. Be it Luka and Bird and Dirk, Penny with Magic, Lebron and Kobe with Jordan, Shaq with Wilt and on and on. I heard a coach compare AD with Bill Russell in college. People just get all offended like its a new concept every time to attempt to explain their irrational hate.

Guy is a new sensation and may have no human precedent(show me the other 290 pound swingman height people who can dunk from the FT line). Of course hes hyped. Welcome to sports. Doesnt justify spending the next several years acting like he needs to be brought down a peg when all he does is talk about his teammates, show respect, work hard, and play well. But youre gonna do it. You dont think you will. But ive never missed the call on one of you people.

And in a year or two when youre still doing it ill remind you that I said so. By then you should have some new standards he cant quite reach to hold him to.

Just waiting for you to hit the "But can he win a title this way?" point. Im thinking that will be early next season when the Pelicans are like a 5 seed and you gotta get out on front of hating on whatever that season ends up being for him. Its a cliff ive watch guys like you ride off of for some time. And its always amusing.

[ImKobe]

Of course I dismiss everything you say. You have managed in a few short weeks to establish yourself as a dedicated hater....all of which are to be totally dismissed. You think anyone reads 3balls posts on Lebron and takes them serious? Only other dedicated Lebron haters. Not normal people. Nobody takes a guys biggest detractors serious. If youre willing to go all hate all the time on a 19 year old who is already playing at a star level there is nowhere for you to go but down.

You are nothing but the new edition of the clowns hating on Lebron here in 03. Every iteration of you for every young player along this line has kept it up forever regardless of what they do. I told people on here they would hate on Kobe even if he won without Shaq. They did. I told people they didnt actually care what Lebron accomplished....they would hate. 4 MVPs and 3 rings later....same haters making the same points. Youre hating on a kid doing as well as he is already....youre on a path of eternal irrational hate and you should and will be considered a no credibility joke from here on to most normal fans who slowly realize it.

Youre gonna talk shit and be laughed at by normal people for the next 10-15 years barring injury....and be cosigned by a few other haters who will also be considered trolls by normal fans.

Its an endless cycle of young phenoms coming into the league with haters pretending they will eat their words and stop when ____ does something...only to move the bar in order to keep hating. Talking about if hes 3rd year Lebron in 18 months you will stop. This is exactly what will happen....

He will be monstrously productive while winning nothing of note in 18 months(the start of his 3rd season....September 2021) exactly as Lebron was and you wont give a damn. You dont care hes productive now. Hes putting up 28 a game on 61% shooting his last ten and here you are. But if hes doing something similar to Lebrons 31/7/6 from 06 in his 3rd year you are gonna admit you were wrong? Its entirely possible hes doing that next year. Lebron did it in what....40-42 minutes a game? Zion might well be a 29/8 guy next year in less minutes and you wont give a shit.

Youre gonna hate anyway because thats what the new versions of you always do. Youre too far gone and you arrived in only like 6 weeks. People like you are impossible to avoid in sports no matter how wrong they always are in the end. Theres only 2 ways this goes. Zion goes to the hall of fame....or he gets injured. You will only not look like a jackass if he goes down.....which hurts the entire sport. But thats where it is now. There is no way hes not all time productive for the next decade+ barring injury. And Lebron was nothing but productive and losing for many years. But you wont see the parallel because haters never do.

So we're supposed to allow Lebron stans to troll without responding with any facts? There wouldn't be nearly as much "hating" on Lebron if the same group of idiots weren't allowed to troll the forums all day. His accomplishments are great but the same guys are bashing Jordan/Kobe and the former Laker guys daily, of course people are going to respond negatively to that. I don't think anyone's really hating Zion on here, just people responding to the same trolls who are propping him up to unrealistic heights to downplay Ingram's/Ball's contributions.

[Kblaze8855]

Some of the same Lebron haters here right now were on here with me in 2002 saying he would be out of the NBA inside 3 seasons. Im talking HS games getting hated on and 100 post topics(back when we had like a tenth of the posters) clowning Eddy Curry for saying Lebron could be a starter at 18.

Lebron haters(like Zion...and Kobe) tell you its because of what _____ said when its just who they are.

The haters hate...then build the reasons to suit it. Always have. Always will. Go read the google newsgroup Jordan haters in the 80s. Same deal.

Hate is justified the same way no matter who the subject is. "But ____ said..." as if the rest of humanity doesnt hear them say it and NOT become dedicated haters.

You can find a reason to hate on anyone....or just enjoy something special.

Zion is special. So was Lebron. So was Kobe. Jordan. So is Luka. Nit picking special all day serves no purpose. Just enjoy the sport.

[sdot_thadon]

pretty much this. The google newsgroup you refer to, is it about the general nba at that time? Sounds like it could be interesting reading, you got any links?

[ImKobe]

That's boring. People enjoy discussing sports and comparing players/teams, doesn't mean they actually "hate" anyone when they're just talking analytics or a game they just watched. Of course the trolls are going to receive negative responses. What OP said wasn't false either and I don't know how anyone calls this a hate thread, it's just a response to all the trolls who have been bashing his teammates in order to prop him up, OP calls him a "beast" and says he has the "it" factor, yet apparently he's just a hater and a "3Ball" when it comes to Zion, when the majority of his stuff on Zion has been overly positive, considering the kid's 19 and has only played 16 games.

He points out the flaws with the team that Zion alone simply can't & won't fix with the way it's currently constructed.

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody actually think they are a hater. The term is rarely owned because it removes credibility. Haters never own it and the people who agree with them always ask why they are called haters. Shits been going on here since Knoeitall in 02 or so calling himself the "Bringer of light" or something like that on Kobe when people dismissed him as a hater. Its pretty simple...if you are motivated to make multiple topics in any small period of time downplaying anyone....if your stance can usually be known without reading it? Youre probably a hater. Someone just appreciating greatness feels no motivation to shit talk guys all the time. It just isnt how normal people operate. ISH has thousands of registered people who read the same shit you do and feel no motivation at all to downplay Zion because of it. Normal people barely even register the opinion of "trolls"....much less use it to become trolls themselves.

I just slowly whittle down the names and keep it moving. 2 more got banned the last couple days who got let out with the board transition. What I look like hating on some great player because of a moron posting things in favor of him for the express purpose of getting me to react? You reacting to it is letting the terrorists win.

[ClipperRevival]

I had no idea Zion was going to be this much reliant on pounding guys on the inside and just trying to overpower them. I was expecting a little more face up and drive, jab step and drive, etc. He's only 19 so he'll obviously be more crafty and versatile but he can be a black hole sometimes. He'll get his efficiency numbers but sometimes at the expense of flow.

He's really a hard guy to figure out. He's obviously got generational explosion but he plays mostly the 5 right now and some 4. He can't sustain this level of pounding his whole career. Also, he's just way too heavy to be a "closer" like most traditional wings. So he's kind of in a odd place right now. Still think he needs that #1 option closer on his team to maximize his talents. Someone like YDK.

[ImKobe]

So, people can't be objective without being deemed a "hater"? Is ISH supposed to be a massive circlejerk? I can like Zion as a player and think he's a future superstar while also disagreeing on certain points that Wheels has spammed all over ISH. That's basically what OP is doing. Like, it's not enough to call a 19 y.o kid after 15 NBA games a star/future superstar, you really think OP has to be positive about EVERYTHING regarding his game? He can be a great offensive player and still have some flaws in his game that may or may not heavily impact the team the way it's currently constructed, it's fine to discuss those things and to be objective about them. Every post about him shouldn't be a positive one.

[Marchesk]

So, people can't be objective without being deemed a "hater"? Is ISH supposed to be a massive circlejerk?

You're not allowed to criticize the hype for the next potential superstar. You're supposed to go with the narrative.

[Kblaze8855]

Youre obviously allowed. Im not stopping you or anyone else. But it is what it is. Every guy like this gets a group of clowns who start early and get so deep into hating they spend his whole career downplaying everything right up to the HOF induction. Just such a lame person to be. Even for the players I dont care for I cant sit around hating. These are the people who would have been on an ISH in 1985 talking about "Um....Orlando woolridge had a better game than MJ vs the Kings....wheres his hype?" and your eyes almost roll outta your head. Just such a sad way to take in the game. Watching amazing young players finding some shit to talk because they arent perfect....which always(every single time) extends to and beyond the point they hit the random goals placed on their careers. Its not gonna matter what Zion does any more than it mattered what Lebron or Kobe did. It never does.

It never ever ever ends. Eliteballer still on here hating on Lebron and he started in 2003. The Kobe haters got a little quieter for obvious reasons but they were there. Start hating on people as kids....call it "objective" and just going against hype....then do it the rest of your lives no matter what they accomplish. As if anyone objective feels a need to almost exclusively downplay someone playing HOF ball. Theres always gonna be more positive to say than negative about a superstar but people get all in their feelings and think they need to be the voice pointing out the flaws as if thats being fair....and their hate somehow balances the entirely justified support.

Comes down to this...

Phenoms get crazy hype because a fair person obviously has a lot of good to say about near kids playing HOF level ball in the NBA. A hater feels a need to point out the couple clouds in the sky because they dont think like fair minded fans who know negatives are inherent and nobody has ever been defined by the few things that keep them from being perfect. They are celebrated for the many things that make them special. Only the haters harp on the one cloud in the sky and feel a need to go on and on about it.

Normal people just call it a great day.

Haters out here complaining about getting blowjob from a beautiful woman because she didnt swallow. Just enjoy the damn ride.

[DMAVS41]

Yes.

Clearly he's not helping the team much.

Pels with Zion on court? +10 points per 100 possessions.

Pels without Zion on court? -3.3bpoints per 100 possessions.

I mean, his defense sucks so far, but the impact has been amazing even with that.

[Marchesk]

Just enjoy the damn ride.

Nah. Part of discussing sports is offering criticism. It's not just stanning and going along with the media's marketing pitch.

Anyway, you haven't disagreed with any facts or discussion of gameplay posted so far.

[Marchesk]

Clearly he's not helping the team much.

Nobody has said that in this thread.

Why is this a binary discussion? It's either 100% praise for Zion or you're a hater, think he sucks and should be traded, and everything you say can be dismissed.

I rest my case concerning the narrative.

But in case anyone thinks I'm saying otherwhise:

Zion is a big plus for the Pelicans on offense. He's a beast inside. Looks like a Shaq-Barkley hybrid mosnter. He's a very good offensive rebounder.

But he hasn't put forth much effort on defensive side yet, and he's not the only reason the Pelicans have turned things around. Those are just facts.

[Kblaze8855]

Nah. Part of discussing sports is offering criticism. It's not just stanning and going along with the media's marketing pitch.

Anyway, you haven't disagreed with any facts or discussion of gameplay posted so far.


And now we hear about the dreaded media. Youre hitting all the hater justification classics. True greatest hits album.

[Kblaze8855]

Why is this a binary discussion? It's either 100% praise for Zion or you're a hater, think he sucks and should be traded, and everything you say can be dismissed.


Rest assured....everything you say is GOING to be dismissed long term. Happens with all the dedicated detractors. You can only hear a guy downplay a great player so long before his obvious agenda drowns out the points. Then they end up on some "Its about the message not the messenger!" shit and create alts to make the same points but hopefully be taken serious again. You dont strike me as the alt type. I hope not at least.

[Marchesk]

Rest assured....everything you say is GOING to be dismissed long term.

In the long term, we're all dead. Nobody knows the future, but one thing is likely. This post or one similar to it will get bumped for the lulz 8 years from now. Maybe it will be with Zion having taken over for Giannis as the best in the game. Maybe it will be to laugh at you. I remember Ralph Sampson and 'Baby Jordan'. I was a big stan of Glenn Robinson coming into the league. I remember how everyone else was convinced Grant Hill was the next great thing after Jordan. Do you remember that?

But it's not about that. It's about the hype and how the commentators will say things like Zion turned the Pelicans season around, or how they'll mention Zion's point total in games when Ingram led the team. Or fans chant for Zion to come back in the game when Ingram is taking free throws.

You seem to be blind to that. You also seem to not understand that some people don't like having a player or team constantly talked about. It's the reason Payton Manning had lots of haters. And the reason everyone hates the Cowboys who isn't a Cowboys fan.

And it's also what fuels some of the Lebron hate. He's great. He deserves a lot of praise. But the constant barage is annoying as ****.

[DMAVS41]

Nobody has said that in this thread.

Why is this a binary discussion? It's either 100% praise for Zion or you're a hater, think he sucks and should be traded, and everything you say can be dismissed.

I rest my case concerning the narrative.

But in case anyone thinks I'm saying otherwhise:

Zion is a big plus for the Pelicans on offense. He's a beast inside. Looks like a Shaq-Barkley hybrid mosnter. He's a very good offensive rebounder.

But he hasn't put forth much effort on defensive side yet, and he's not the only reason the Pelicans have turned things around. Those are just facts.

It isn't binary to simply point out that since Zion started playing...they are great with him on the court...and suck without him on the court.

Those are just facts.

Also a fact to say that the entire league would give up just about anyone outside a few guys to get him...even with the injury issues. He's putting up monster numbers and has had a huge impact.

This is the same shit people are doing with Luka;

He's shackled KP and made him an onlooker

He holds the ball too long

He's not a great defender

On and on and on...just dumb...most not even true...and ignores that these guys are just getting started and are already good enough to be considered stars.

[Kblaze8855]

Two of the cautionary tales you mentioned are in the Hall of Fame for the record....

And only the absolute scumbag sports fans take a victory lap when generational players go down to injury. I don’t think of you as that level of hater just showing potential to descend into that with time. Anyone can get hurt. That’s not even worth going into. But the point that you’re gonna be ignored isn’t about it he thrives or fails. You will be disregarded the same reason other obsessed types are.

Once you’re far enough down a path of hate or support nobody needs to read your words to know what you think. Like the jazz fan who hypes Gobert as top 5. I don’t care if he watches every second of him his opinion on Rudy is nothing to me. I don’t care. He’s tainted. In time...so will you be on Zion. I told you a couple weeks ago. Eventually normal people tune out haters and the big time “stans” and the guys most dedicated to the subject end up the least listened to.

It’s a self defeating tactic. Eventually....you’re just 3ball being trolled not responded to. It takes a while....but it happens. I don’t think you have been historically a bad poster....but Zion seems to have broken you and started you down a path to being one. Guess we will find out together.

Youre hittting all the obsessed hater notes just on a small scale. Maybe it gets boring and you go back to normal. I hope so. Like I said....I don’t think I’ve ever thought of you as that type of poster.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Before LeBron first stepped on an NBA court, he was massively hyped. Of course so were several other guys who came before him and many who came after only to flame out. They didn't even explode in some glorious supernova of self-destruction most of the time. No they often sputtered out like a candle running out of wax and we hardly remember their names anymore.

So when I started hearing all that hype, I mostly just rolled my eyes and thought "I'll believe it when I see it". Sure I kept my eye on him here and there, but I reserved judgment until he had a decent body of work. I flipped game 5, 2007 against Detroit. That may have been an arbitrary moment, but as of then I was no longer a sceptic, but became a full fledged fan.

That's how I am though. I'm slow to buy in to the young guys and perhaps pay too much attention to the holes in their game. I'd have to say I mostly agree with the first post here, though the thread title may be a bit lacking in context.

The Pelicans were trending in the right direction before Zion came back, and it is fair to say "wait a minute, these other guys are part of the turn around, not just Zion". Now the "hater" angle will be to give the rest of the squad outsized credit for the current success and Zion outsized blame for failures, and the thread title certainly looks to be dangerously close to taking that road, so I get the criticism. Still there are valid points being made. It's more a question of how much weight to give them.

For me, I'm taking a cautious, wait and see approach as is my norm with every young phenom. He looks like he will be an incredible player, but at the moment I'd not be surprised if he becomes more Blake Griffen than Shaq. That's because his greatest strengths are also things that can work against him. It makes me question whether he'll be able to hit elite game changer status, or max out as an incredible scorer who struggles to make wins happen.

For starters his mass makes him incredibly effective, and in the current small ball meta, he should be able to leverage his advantages there very well. Guys like Kuzma have no chance guarding him.

Where are the David Wests and Zach Randolphs? They're gone. Not that those guys are necessarily shutting him down either, but at least if you have some mass, he has to expend more energy finishing through you, and you can wear him down over time. Turn it in to an attrition battle with waves of big bodies and hope he runs out of gas in the 4th. That's how teams dealt with Shaq and it's why he got so big, to counter the big bodies he was facing.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I'm curious if Zion forces a change in how teams build rosters and we start seeing a few large dudes added to rosters just to bang on Zion, but where I'm going with this is that for all the advantages his mass gives him, it can also limit him in two ways. One is that it places a bigger strain on his body making him more susceptible to injury. That's not just speculation. It's already manifested at Duke and in the summer.

I hope this doesn't become a nagging problem, but it's hard to think it won't. The problem isn't just the mass. I mean Shaq was huge too, and while he missed a lot of games, he managed to stay healthy enough to have a dominant all time great career. But Shaq had an advantage over Zion in that he barely had to jump to dunk. He could be explosive when needed, but didn't have to be. Zion is too short and doesn't have long arms either to get above the rim without the explosiveness, and that puts strain on his body.

The other issue is that it just takes more energy to move larger bodies. I suspect that Zion will always have stamina problems unless he loses weight, but then he's giving up part of what helps him dominate. Long run that may be what gives him the best shot at the best career, but then he also loses a small part of what makes him special. He can keep the weight, but may struggle playing more than 30 mpg effectively, especially over the course of a long season and playoffs.

There are other ways his size may limit him. I suspect he will struggle with players that change directions quickly. Again, his mass can make it difficult to quickly change directions. He has the explosiveness to recover quickly, but I see some potential for defensive struggles. His height and length aren't doing him favors there either. He won't alter shots of taller guys without jumping, but if he jumps pump fakes are a problem. Rookies should be expected to improve significantly defensively, and he'll be able to use his mass and athleticism to great effect on the defensive end, but I suspect his teams will have some challenges on the defensive end and could struggle to find an effective defensive front court.

He doesn't have a great shot or great handles which limits him when he's not right at the basket. Of course he has no problem getting to the basket, so that limitation shouldn't be over emphasized. Still LeBron has been limited by good defenses for the same reason. So has Giannis. And those guys had more tools available to be more effective in other ways. It feels like he's going to be capped on effectiveness until he gets better in both areas. Those are things that can be improved on, and he's young so we should probably assume he'll get better. But until that improvement comes he'll probably have a lot of playoff disappointments like LeBron in '07, '08, '10, '11 and '15, all times where better shooting by LeBron would have potentially changed outcomes.

Not trying to hate. I'd say Zion is ahead of pace in the quest to be an all time great. But there are concerns and reasons to take a wait and see approach.

[Marchesk]

Now the "hater" angle will be to give the rest of the squad outsized credit for the current success and Zion outsized blame for failures, and the thread title certainly looks to be dangerously close to taking that road, so I get the criticism. Still there are valid points being made. It's more a question of how much weight to give them.

It is a bit click-baity and trollish, but this is ISH.

What got my goat was during the first half of the Lakers-Pelicancs game, after the commentators non-stopped talked about Zion every possession he was in the game, they then said he was the reason the Pelicans turned their season around.

Thus this thread. But to be fair to the other side, I wouldn't argue with Zion being the best player on Pelicans since he's been in the lineup. I do think the lineup is a bit crowded now, but it doesn't seem to be hurting their offensive production so far.


For me, I'm taking a cautious, wait and see approach as is my norm with every young phenom. He looks like he will be an incredible player, but at the moment I'd not be surprised if he becomes more Blake Griffen than Shaq.

See, that's the thing. There's no denying his physical prowess. But that doesn't necessarily mean he's the next Lebron. Blake Griffin was a very good for years. Just not quite MVP level good. Another poster compared Zion to Terry Cummings, who was very good in his early years also, but not MVP level.

Or he turns into a HOFer like Barkley. That's top 20 all-time.

Or he really is the next goat-level player. I'm not going to think that about any player until they're proven it for years, but maybe. I do have Lebron top 3 all-time at this point because he earned it over 17 seasons.

So we'll see.

[tontoz]

Zion's ability to score a lot of points consistently with so little time actually holding the ball has tremendous value. I can't think of a legit comp. The Barkley comparison doesn't really work because he was pretty ball dominant. Great offensive player, one of the best ever in his prime, but his game was different than Zion's.

Keep in mind that the team is trying to integrate him during the season on the fly. He had no training camp. They are making things up as they go.

Just look at the trouble Indy's had since Dipo came back. He is a vet who has been their for years but they are still having problems working him back into the lineup.

[ImKobe]

This Mavs gamed showed it again. Pelicans simply lack the depth and have issues when it comes to their defense and rebounding. The whole sequence with Luka breaking Jrue's ankles showed all the weaknesses this team has on that side of the court. Ball & Ingram are not the problem. Since Zion can't play the 5 for defensive reasons, they'll be forced to play two bigs or hope that he extends his range in the off-season. Ibaka would be a great fit but I don't think they could afford him.


Zion's ability to score a lot of points consistently with so little time actually holding the ball has tremendous value. I can't think of a legit comp. The Barkley comparison doesn't really work because he was pretty ball dominant. Great offensive player, one of the best ever in his prime, but his game was different than Zion's.

Keep in mind that the team is trying to integrate him during the season on the fly. He had no training camp. They are making things up as they go.

Just look at the trouble Indy's had since Dipo came back. He is a vet who has been their for years but they are still having problems working him back into the lineup.

I wouldn't compare his situation to Oladipo's because Victor had the tougher injury and he's much older. Zion's injury was projected at about 2 months to recover from, Pelicans went at a least a month beyond that IIRC. Can't really compare a meniscus tear to a ruptured quad tendon.