Was MJ GOAT before even getting any titles?

[iamgine]

“I would never have called him the greatest player I’d ever seen if I didn’t mean it,” Bird told The Boston Globe. “It’s just God disguised as Michael Jordan.”

Do you think Bird's opinion carried any weight? Remember this quote was from 1986 before Hakeem won anything. When Magic and Kareem "only" had 3 titles. Before Shaq, Duncan and Lebron was drafted.

[Kblaze8855]

This is after Jordans 48th career game...rookie season(obviously):


Bird spoke Tuesday evening after the world champions had vanquished the Bulls 110-106 in a visceral Stadium affair before 18,061 customers who needed their chairs only occasionally. Bird required a seat now, fighting fatigue and a bug, with a towel over his legs and a beer. He had played 42 minutes and watched Michael Jordan the other 6.

''I have never seen one player turn a team around like that,'' said Bird, snapping his fingers. ''All the Bulls have become better because of him. Orlando Woolridge will probably be an All-Star for the rest of his career. And pretty soon, this place will be packed every night, not just when the Celtics come to town. They`ll pay just to watch Jordan. Got to.''

Bird recently volunteered his vote for Jordan as the finest athlete he`d ever witnessed or opposed, mentioning the Bulls` electric rookie in the same monologue as Wayne Gretzky. After observing Jordan gyrate for 41 points, a game-high 12 rebounds and 7 assists Tuesday night, Bird was in no mood for second opinions.

''Best,'' said Bird. ''Never seen anyone like him. Unlike anyone I`ve ever seen. Phenomenal. One of a kind.''

In other words . . .

''One of a kind,'' he repeated. ''That`s what I mean about the league. With guys like him coming in from college year after year, we just can`t help but get a better image, better crowds, better TV ratings. He`s the best. Ever.''

Better than Larry Bird?

''Yup,'' said Bird. ''At his stage in his career, he`s doing more than I ever did. I couldn`t do what he did as a rookie. Heck, there was one drive tonight. He had the ball up in his right hand, then he took it down, then he brought it back up. I got a hand on it, fouled him, and he still scored. And all the while, he`s in the air. You have to play this game to know how difficult that is. You see that and figure, `Well, what the heck can you do?` ''

One of Jordan`s creations didn`t make it to the scorebook. Near the end of the first quarter, he posed at the center line, dribbling seconds away, like an airplane about to take off. Then he bore through and over a sea of green jerseys for a slam. Mike Mathis, the out official, figured something so spectacular couldn`t also be legal, so he whistled Jordan for an offensive foul.

''Best,'' repeated Bird. ''I`d seen a little of him before and wasn`t that impressed. I mean, I thought he`d be good, but not this good. Ain`t nothing he can`t do. That`s good for this franchise, good for the league.''

[Axe]

Holy copypasta man. :lol

Just kidding. It's great reading before that during game 2 in the first round of the 1986 playoffs between the bulls and the celtics where MJ scored 63 points. The celtics was just too much for the young bulls back then.

[Marchesk]

Bird praising Jordan didn't make Jordan the the best ever. Jordan's performance in the 90s did that. Any of you really think Jordan goes down as consensus GOAT with one or two titles? How would that put him above Wilt all-time?

[Phoenix]

There was a point when people were able to separate how good you were at basketball and contextualize that in terms of whether they rightfully should be positioned to win championships. Then it became a dick waving contest of ring-counting. I don't know when the line got drawn in the sand.

[Gileraracer]

You have to play this game to know how difficult that is.

That's the point. That's why Simon has absolutely no clue about anything basketball related.

[Manny98]

He was the GOAT before he even came out of his mother's womb :bowdown:

[Marchesk]

But when you're debating whether current Player A is the best of all-time, titles become important. Wilt would have a stronger claim if he had been 6-6 in the finals. But he's teams didn't do that.

[guy]

There was a point when people were able to separate how good you were at basketball and contextualize that in terms of whether they rightfully should be positioned to win championships. Then it became a dick waving contest of ring-counting. I don't know when the line got drawn in the sand.

There was a time were accolades/stats/championships were evidence of a player’s greatness. At some point it flipped to being the reason someone was great, removing all context around it. There’s a big difference between the 2.

[FKAri]

There was a point when people were able to separate how good you were at basketball and contextualize that in terms of whether they rightfully should be positioned to win championships. Then it became a dick waving contest of ring-counting. I don't know when the line got drawn in the sand.

When shock jock style sports analysis took over the airwaves in the 90s and taken to a new level by ESPN's TV version of shock jocks in the 00's. At some point before the 80's had ended it was (or should've been) clear that MJ was the best baller ever.

[90sgoat]

I linked an article from 1992 about the Dream Team on the old forum, where Michael Jordan is called the GOAT already.

That would have been after his second title at least. It was just obvious by then.

[Kblaze8855]

Bird praising Jordan didn't make Jordan the the best ever. Jordan's performance in the 90s did that. Any of you really think Jordan goes down as consensus GOAT with one or two titles? How would that put him above Wilt all-time?


What you go down as and what you are aren’t the same thing.

Nobody has been better at basketball than Jordan was by 1990. If it’s not about basketball to you then obviously it’s a different discussion.

[DMAVS41]

But when you're debating whether current Player A is the best of all-time, titles become important. Wilt would have a stronger claim if he had been 6-6 in the finals. But he's teams didn't do that.

It depends on circumstances.

You can't be the best player of all-time while consistently losing on teams that should win.

However, way too often titles are simply a product of having great help...even for the best players.

The obvious example is KG on Minnesota. Is any player in history winning more than 1 title with the level of help KG had during his time on the Wolves? I seriously doubt it...

So, yes, titles matter...but it should be within a discussion on the circumstances in which the titles are won...not just merely adding them up like everyone has the same chance. KG was probably a better player overall from 97-07 than Kobe was. Kobe made 4 finals and won 3 titles. KG won like 3 playoff series or something.

If we aren't talking about basketball...just way too many guys get diminished and way too many guys get propped up based on circumstances.

[tontoz]

Bobby Knight was saying the same thing after coaching Jordan on the Olympic team. There were people saying it here and there but at the same time there were a lot of people dismissing it, pointing to his selfishness and playoff exits.

I think it really became the consensus after his 2nd title.

My 2c is that Jordan was the best player in the league before he won his first ring. As far as being the GOAT it seems pretty much mandatory that you need rings to be in the discussion for most people.

[AirBonner]

MJ isn’t the goat even after the titles. I guess to casual fans (the majority) he is. Yes he put up pretty stats but he never had that “wtf ring” that one he had no business winning. LeBron has that (2016)as well as Dirk (2011). For the most part he beat what was in front of him but the Pistons and Celtics were put in front of him.

[Phoenix]

MJ isn’t the goat even after the titles. I guess to casual fans (the majority) he is. Yes he put up pretty stats but he never had that “wtf ring” that one he had no business winning. LeBron has that (2016)as well as Dirk (2011). For the most part he beat what was in front of him but the Pistons and Celtics were put in front of him.

Dirks' WTF ring came partly at the expense of Lebron's under-performance. It's interesting that you specify the criteria of needing a 'WTF ring' because it suits your argument for Lebron, but having a 'Wtf' under-performance like the 2011 finals gets conveniently glossed over.

[Bronbron23]

Hell no

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not before getting titles. No.

BITW, sure. Being the "greatest" has a different implication though, and while Jordan arguably is, he was getting that praise as early as 1993. When going for his 3rd straight chip.

[JBSptfn]

Bird praising Jordan didn't make Jordan the the best ever. Jordan's performance in the 90s did that. Any of you really think Jordan goes down as consensus GOAT with one or two titles? How would that put him above Wilt all-time?

He's still not ahead of Wilt, even with six rings, as a player or an athlete.

[FKAri]

I think in these "Greatness" discussions it always needs to be clarified that there's a difference between how good someone is at basketball and how accomplished they are. Personally, I have always preferred the former approach to greatness. Accomplishments and accolades should be the evidence of greatness not the definition itself.

[Hardtop Hero]

He wasn't GOAT before winning any titles, but I will say this. I've told a story before about how I was watching a random Bulls Heat game from like 94, and Jordan blew by a player and scored. The announcer said "That's what happens when you make a mistake vs the greatest player of all time" (paraphrasing). Keep in mind that at the time he "only" had 2 rings. But it really shows you that BECAUSE OF HIM, rings became overhyped. Obviously, to be a legend you need at least a couple of rings. However, the sentiment at the time was that he was GOAT before he got anywhere near 6 rings, and despite the fact that it was less than Magic, Bird, etc. What a lot of people today just don't get was just what a phenomenon MJ was. There's been nothing like him before or since.

[Da_Realist]

There was a time were accolades/stats/championships were evidence of a player’s greatness. At some point it flipped to being the reason someone was great, removing all context around it. There’s a big difference between the 2.

Good point

[Marchesk]

What you go down as and what you are aren’t the same thing.

Nobody has been better at basketball than Jordan was by 1990. If it’s not about basketball to you then obviously it’s a different discussion.

What makes Jordan from 84-90 better than the prime years of Wilt, Kareem or even Oscar? For that matter, what made him better than Larry during his 3 straight MVPS?

People have serious recency bias in every era, and Jordan came in the league at the perfect time to become an international superstar. So guys like Dr. J and Kareem kind of got forgotten about, let alone dudes from the 60s.

But some old-timers would say even after watching Jordan play that Dr. J, Elgin Baylor or Wilt was the best they'd ever seen. Guys who coached and played in the league. I take it all with a grain of salt. Hasn't Pippen been saying Lebron is better for the past decade? Does Pippen's opinion carry any more weight than anyone else's who knows the game? It's not like they all agree on who is the GOAT.

So Larry and the media (yes the media) could call Jordan the best that's every played by 1990, but that doesn't mean it was true. I really don't see the case over peak Wilt.

[DoctorP]

This was Bird's GM eye taking over. He knew he saw a basketball specimen.

[guy]

MJ isn’t the goat even after the titles. I guess to casual fans (the majority) he is. Yes he put up pretty stats but he never had that “wtf ring” that one he had no business winning. LeBron has that (2016)as well as Dirk (2011). For the most part he beat what was in front of him but the Pistons and Celtics were put in front of him.

There’s nothing “WTF” about Lebron’s 2016 ring cause there was no good reason they should’ve been 16 games worse then the Warriors and huge underdogs as a result in the first place. Those Cavs teams consistently underachieved in the regular season. Add in the Draymond suspension and Steph’s injury or straight up choking (whatever you want to call it, it wasn’t reflective of a 73 win team leading unanimous MVP) and it’s not nearly as impressive as people make it out to be.

And the only reason Dirk had a “WTF” is because of Lebron‘s historic choking which has nothing to do with Dirk.

Just one of Jordan’s 3-peats is a much bigger accomplishment then anything Lebron has ever done. I don’t even need to bring up the 2nd one which for some reason seems to have “normalized” 3-peats and made it seem like they aren’t that hard.

[guy]

What makes Jordan from 84-90 better than the prime years of Wilt, Kareem or even Oscar? For that matter, what made him better than Larry during his 3 straight MVPS?

People have serious recency bias in every era, and Jordan came in the league at the perfect time to become an international superstar. So guys like Dr. J and Kareem kind of got forgotten about, let alone dudes from the 60s.

But some old-timers would say even after watching Jordan play that Dr. J, Elgin Baylor or Wilt was the best they'd ever seen. Guys who coached and played in the league. I take it all with a grain of salt. Hasn't Pippen been saying Lebron is better for the past decade? Does Pippen's opinion carry any more weight than anyone else's who knows the game? It's not like they all agree on who is the GOAT.

So Larry and the media (yes the media) could call Jordan the best that's every played by 1990, but that doesn't mean it was true. I really don't see the case over peak Wilt.

No, Pippen has not been saying that.

[Marchesk]

No, Pippen has not been saying that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kes9AxxcdfA


(2011) Scottie Pippen: LeBron James greater than Michael Jordan? (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/post/scottie-pippen-lebron-james-a-greater-player-than-michael-jordan/2011/05/27/AGajioCH_blog.html)


(2013) Mourning: Pippen said LeBron would have kicked Jordan's butt (https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/mourning-pippen-said-lebron-would-have-kicked-jordans-butt/)

[guy]

He wasn't GOAT before winning any titles, but I will say this. I've told a story before about how I was watching a random Bulls Heat game from like 94, and Jordan blew by a player and scored. The announcer said "That's what happens when you make a mistake vs the greatest player of all time" (paraphrasing). Keep in mind that at the time he "only" had 2 rings. But it really shows you that BECAUSE OF HIM, rings became overhyped. Obviously, to be a legend you need at least a couple of rings. However, the sentiment at the time was that he was GOAT before he got anywhere near 6 rings, and despite the fact that it was less than Magic, Bird, etc. What a lot of people today just don't get was just what a phenomenon MJ was. There's been nothing like him before or since.

RIP but it was the Jordan-Kobe comparisons that really started this when people tried to equate Kobe’s 3 titles with Shaq with Jordan’s. Furthermore, just in general no one in the media could ever really justify any players on-court dominance as being better than Jordan’s so they had to bring up a different angle. Hard to blame them. The media wouldn’t have been able to generate as much interest if they acknowledged that no one from the last 20 years has had any argument over Jordan.

[BigShotBob]

I'm a long time MJ hater because he was heavily lauded and from the few games I was able to see I refused to believe that he was the best.

But yes, he was the GOAT since 1986. He just didn't have the best of teams. Though I think in 1990 he could have done more to carry the Bulls to a title.

[guy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kes9AxxcdfA


(2011) Scottie Pippen: LeBron James greater than Michael Jordan? (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/post/scottie-pippen-lebron-james-a-greater-player-than-michael-jordan/2011/05/27/AGajioCH_blog.html)


(2013) Mourning: Pippen said LeBron would have kicked Jordan's butt (https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/mourning-pippen-said-lebron-would-have-kicked-jordans-butt/)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dOgwQ5pmSiQ

^^^thats way more of a concrete opinion then any of what you posted.

He specifically says in that first video you posted “statistically”, which from a totals standpoint, he’s right.

In 2011, he totally backtracked afterward.

The Zo comment is he say she say.

[Rico2016]

MJ isn’t the goat even after the titles. I guess to casual fans (the majority) he is. Yes he put up pretty stats but he never had that “wtf ring” that one he had no business winning. LeBron has that (2016)as well as Dirk (2011). For the most part he beat what was in front of him but the Pistons and Celtics were put in front of him.


5 years without Pip = 0 1st round wins

[Axe]

5 years without Pip = 0 1st round wins
At least the bulls still qualified for the playoffs in each season he played with the team.

[ClipperRevival]

This is after Jordans 48th career game...rookie season(obviously):


Bird spoke Tuesday evening after the world champions had vanquished the Bulls 110-106 in a visceral Stadium affair before 18,061 customers who needed their chairs only occasionally. Bird required a seat now, fighting fatigue and a bug, with a towel over his legs and a beer. He had played 42 minutes and watched Michael Jordan the other 6.

''I have never seen one player turn a team around like that,'' said Bird, snapping his fingers. ''All the Bulls have become better because of him. Orlando Woolridge will probably be an All-Star for the rest of his career. And pretty soon, this place will be packed every night, not just when the Celtics come to town. They`ll pay just to watch Jordan. Got to.''

Bird recently volunteered his vote for Jordan as the finest athlete he`d ever witnessed or opposed, mentioning the Bulls` electric rookie in the same monologue as Wayne Gretzky. After observing Jordan gyrate for 41 points, a game-high 12 rebounds and 7 assists Tuesday night, Bird was in no mood for second opinions.

''Best,'' said Bird. ''Never seen anyone like him. Unlike anyone I`ve ever seen. Phenomenal. One of a kind.''

In other words . . .

''One of a kind,'' he repeated. ''That`s what I mean about the league. With guys like him coming in from college year after year, we just can`t help but get a better image, better crowds, better TV ratings. He`s the best. Ever.''

Better than Larry Bird?

''Yup,'' said Bird. ''At his stage in his career, he`s doing more than I ever did. I couldn`t do what he did as a rookie. Heck, there was one drive tonight. He had the ball up in his right hand, then he took it down, then he brought it back up. I got a hand on it, fouled him, and he still scored. And all the while, he`s in the air. You have to play this game to know how difficult that is. You see that and figure, `Well, what the heck can you do?` ''

One of Jordan`s creations didn`t make it to the scorebook. Near the end of the first quarter, he posed at the center line, dribbling seconds away, like an airplane about to take off. Then he bore through and over a sea of green jerseys for a slam. Mike Mathis, the out official, figured something so spectacular couldn`t also be legal, so he whistled Jordan for an offensive foul.

''Best,'' repeated Bird. ''I`d seen a little of him before and wasn`t that impressed. I mean, I thought he`d be good, but not this good. Ain`t nothing he can`t do. That`s good for this franchise, good for the league.''

Never seen or heard of this before. Are you sure you're not making this sh*t up? :oldlol:

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Bird was calling him god when he was 22yo

to put in perspective that would be like Kawhi now calling Luka the GOAT after a 1st round matchup and Luka going off

[GimmeThat]

easily, people who think any other wise should go and find the Wilt and Magic in their life and shoot them to death.

[ClipperRevival]

“I would never have called him the greatest player I’d ever seen if I didn’t mean it,” Bird told The Boston Globe. “It’s just God disguised as Michael Jordan.”

Do you think Bird's opinion carried any weight? Remember this quote was from 1986 before Hakeem won anything. When Magic and Kareem "only" had 3 titles. Before Shaq, Duncan and Lebron was drafted.

There's a clear difference between what a person sees with their eyes at a moment in time and being the GOAT in the all time rankings (combo of accomplishments, stats, team success, etc).

Bird was obviously giving you the eye test. And in that sense, he did call MJ the GOAT player he had ever seen. But again, that's different from ranking a player all time.

I think before he won his first title, most of the world KNEW he was the most devastating, individual talent in the league but there were still people who put him down for not "making teammates better" and winning rings like a Bird/Magic.

[ClipperRevival]

He was the GOAT before he even came out of his mother's womb :bowdown:

Forgot to switch accounts babyboi? :yaohappy:

[Boogaboog]

It's not crazy. Federer was getting GOAT talk after winning one slam, right after Sampras got the record at 14.

[StrongLurk]

MJ was probably the most talented player of all time (Lebron maybe as well)...except MJ existed 20 years in the NBA before Lebron...so at the time MJ was just in a different dimension talent-wise.

[Marchesk]

It's not crazy. Federer was getting GOAT talk after winning one slam, right after Sampras got the record at 14.

But if Federer had only won five slams, he wouldn't be in the conversation today. Which is why that kind of GOAT talk is totally premature. In tennis, lots of good players have won a slam or two, some of them at a young age. It's the winning 10+ that's really hard.

What really sets Jordan apart is what he did in the playoffs to earn those six titles, being voted as the best player every single time.

[GimmeThat]

If I gave you the moon, and gave you sun, atmosphere and water, how can it not be inhabitable

yes, the problem is people had the moon, they got sun and water without the atmosphere and claimed it inhabitable.

I mean, that's a lot of homophobia folks

[Bawkish]

If I gave you the moon, and gave you sun, atmosphere and water, how can it not be inhabitable

yes, the problem is people had the moon, they got sun and water without the atmosphere and claimed it inhabitable.

I mean, that's a lot of homophobia folks

man, some of your posts are so weird i don't know if your quoting Sun Tzu or Charles Manson or some sh*t

[nayte]

[QUOTE=Bawkish;13942114]man, some of your posts are so weird i don't know if your quoting Sun Tzu or Charles Manson or

I use his posts in a metaphoric sense. Still some are beyond me but I think I kinda get his posts.

[Da_Realist]

There was a time were accolades/stats/championships were evidence of a player’s greatness. At some point it flipped to being the reason someone was great, removing all context around it. There’s a big difference between the 2.

So much truth it needed to be posted again.