If Lebron wins a title this season there is no DEBATE LBJ<<<<<MJ

[NBASTATMAN]

He is showing how great he is .. Check those numbers when he isnt on the floor.. Check out how the CLIPs are absolutely loaded getting guys that have always defended Lebron at a high level.. THey know who the KING is despite his old age.. THE LAKERS are garbage when LEBRON leaves the floor this is well documented..

THE HATERZ ARE ALREADY SCARED .. EVERYONE is saying that CLIPS TEAM IS THE BEST TEAM.. If Lebron beats them and wins a title vs Giannis that will be HIS biggest ACHIEVEMENT.. MJ never beat anyone as good as those two guys on a title run... NOT EVEN CLOSE..

[MrFonzworth]

Someone else wanna tell him?

[scuzzy]

Someone else wanna tell him?
op..... um

lemme talk to ya over here for sec

[FromDowntown]

LeBron already is ahead of the dad killing, no impact, cant shoot, no 1st round wins w/o scottie #2

[NBASTATMAN]

lebron already is ahead of the dad killing, no impact, cant shoot, no 1st round wins w/o scottie #2

i agree but this would be greater than anything any nba player has ever done.. Lebron with 60 k minutes beating two all time greats in their primes.. ,.

[Axe]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSUwe6U8Vukyf0iRWXIsmT9rjWWCRn _jq9baT1cHzP0CTXD8aH7

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He's not greater than Jordan atm. And his peak/prime play while close isn't as great either (playoff scoring and defense etc).

A ring at his current level of play, or by an "elite" definition, and Bron would be in the conversation. I agree there.

[NBAGOAT]

He's not greater than Jordan atm. And his peak/prime play while close isn't as great either (playoff scoring and defense etc).

A ring at his current level of play, or just at an "elite" level, and Bron would be in the conversation. I agree there.

agreed mostly but I think even a ring playing well isnt enough. He's still a got couple years behind kareem's longevity though it's close there too

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

agreed mostly but I think even a ring playing well isnt enough. He's still a got couple years behind kareem's longevity though it's close there too

Yeah.

I don't think anything would be consensus, but it puts Bron in the conversation. For me at least.

3 titles with 3 different teams... Incredible prime and longevity... Great comp etc. Would be hard to ignore.

[DoctorP]

https://media.tenor.com/images/ccbf1b1b48259f42e980f787ef635750/tenor.gif

[bullettooth]

Someone else wanna tell him?


I keep saying LeBron fanboys are the dumbest people on the planet....

[Stanley Kobrick]

its pretty close i have them neck and neck right now

[72-10]

ur rite MJ would point at him and be like, it's this guy rite here, like, you are the man

Sidenote: the URL is a b*tch

[Phoenix]

Anyone told the OP yet?

[86Celtics]

Idiot OP got it right by accident.

[superduper]

Bran stans with their chimp ass IQ :oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

Bran stans with their high ass IQ :oldlol:

SUPERDOPE is hating so bad.. But AL HARRINGTON , STEPHEN JACKSON BOTH SAID LEBRON IS THE GREATEST.. YOU MAD

[Phoenix]

SUPERDOPE is hating so bad.. But AL HARRINGTON , STEPHEN JACKSON BOTH SAID LEBRON IS THE GREATEST.. YOU MAD

Type in 'Stephen Jackson GOAT' on youtube and link to where he's said that. Because he's a very vocal pro-Kobe guy.

[tpols]

i dont think he realizes the symbols are flipped. :roll:

[Phoenix]

i dont think he realizes the symbols are flipped. :roll:

Shhhhh, it's a secret.

[ArbitraryWater]

i dont think he realizes the symbols are flipped. :roll:


Gawd dammit tpols first to flinch... Weak personality

[guy]

Yeah.

I don't think anything would be consensus, but it puts Bron in the conversation. For me at least.

3 titles with 3 different teams... Incredible prime and longevity... Great comp etc. Would be hard to ignore.

I don’t understand why Lebron should get extra credit for winning with multiple teams. It’s an arbitrary achievement. Shouldn’t give him credit for something that many of the greats he’s compared to didn’t even bother trying to do. You can argue it’s more impressive to do it with one team where they played a huge hand in building a winning culture that had a longer-term impact on the franchise as opposed to just team hopping around to play with or expect to play with already established stars.

[superduper]

Math isn't a strength of our LeFamilia, please leave us alone :(

[superduper]

I don’t understand why Lebron should get extra credit for winning with multiple teams. It’s an arbitrary achievement. Shouldn’t give him credit for something that many of the greats he’s compared to didn’t even bother trying to do. You can argue it’s more impressive to do it with one team where they played a huge hand in building a winning culture that had a longer-term impact on the franchise as opposed to just team hopping around to play with or expect to play with already established stars.

They want to give him credit for running away from his current situations when the going got a little tough and things looked a little grey.

Honestly he has not done much without stacked rosters and even with stacked rosters that finals record....

[SsKSpurs21]

I keep saying LeBron fanboys are the dumbest people on the planet....

its showing by the title of the thread... and iam not referring to the content.

[tpols]

I don’t understand why Lebron should get extra credit for winning with multiple teams. It’s an arbitrary achievement. Shouldn’t give him credit for something that many of the greats he’s compared to didn’t even bother trying to do. You can argue it’s more impressive to do it with one team where they played a huge hand in building a winning culture that had a longer-term impact on the franchise as opposed to just team hopping around to play with or expect to play with already established stars.


exactly... anybody teamhopping around with all this MVP and all NBA talent shouldnt get bonus points for it.

the only star talent Karl Malone played with was John Stockton. Imagine if he hopped from dwayne wade chris bosh to kyrie and love to AD and so on and so forth.

Wouldve won a couple titles too, but apparently loyalty is overrated.

[3ball]

mj needed pippen < what lebron needed

and +1 to the responses to kuniva above

[MrFonzworth]

i dont think he realizes the symbols are flipped. :roll:

Thank you. He needed to hear it from somebody.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don’t understand why Lebron should get extra credit for winning with multiple teams. It’s an arbitrary achievement. Shouldn’t give him credit for something that many of the greats he’s compared to didn’t even bother trying to do. You can argue it’s more impressive to do it with one team where they played a huge hand in building a winning culture that had a longer-term impact on the franchise as opposed to just team hopping around to play with or expect to play with already established stars.

Because he would be the only superstar player to do it. John Salley and Robert Horry are the only players in history period. Doesn't sound arbitrary at all. Lebron gets more credit than someone like Durant because the 2 teams he did win championships with, they needed his production. His numbers and play were ATG so what's the argument? He gets penalized for teaming up with Wade and Bosh in 2010. Their first year. But with those 2 diminishing as Miami won their championships...does it affect him long term? Probably not. I would argue bringing Cleveland their first title in NBA history in and of itself was incredible. Winning with LA would matter too because outside of Lebron and Davis, their team is ordinary. Your typical role players who defend, rebound etc.

[guy]

Because he would be the only superstar player to do it. John Salley and Robert Horry are the only players in history period. Doesn't sound arbitrary at all.

So he gets extra credit for it? It is arbitrary. It’s a random achievement because players don’t set it out as one of their goals and try to do it. Do we penalize Russell, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Duncan, Kobe, for only winning with 1 team even though they didn’t bother to try? Cause that’s effectively what you’re doing by trying to give Lebron extra credit for it.
There is obviously something impressive about going to 3 different franchises with 3 different cultures/structures and winning at each place. In my opinion though, its more impressive to actually stay somewhere, help build up the people around you like Russell, Jordan and Duncan did, and create a long-term winning culture. Lebron playing on and leaving 3 different franchises is evidence that he ain’t really that type of great player and he needs to be somewhere where there is already established great players in place or at least there’s a plan for that to happen and he will leave the moment it looks like things are going south.



Lebron gets more credit than someone like Durant because the 2 teams he did win championships with, they needed his production. His numbers and play were ATG so what's the argument? He gets penalized for teaming up with Wade and Bosh in 2010. Their first year. But with those 2 diminishing as Miami won their championships...does it affect him long term? Probably not.

I never disagreed with this. I would say there’s a difference from what Jordan did with Chicago vs Lebron going to Miami who had just won the championship 5 years earlier and was already ran by an all-time great coach/executive and led by the 2nd-3rd best player in the league. But sure, he definitely played ATG and was their best player so he gets a ton of credit.



I would argue bringing Cleveland their first title in NBA history in and of itself was incredible.

Sure, but does he deserve extra credit for it? Jordan brought the Bulls not only its 1st title but 5 more after that :oldlol: – a franchise that also hasn’t done much since. Maybe he deserves it when comparing him to Magic, Bird, or Kobe, but not Jordan.



Winning with LA would matter too because outside of Lebron and Davis, their team is ordinary. Your typical role players who defend, rebound etc.

You can say this about plenty of championship teams.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So he gets extra credit for it? It is arbitrary. ItÂ’s a random achievement because players donÂ’t set it out as one of their goals and try to do it. Do we penalize Russell, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Duncan, Kobe, for only winning with 1 team even though they didnÂ’t bother to try? Cause thatÂ’s effectively what youÂ’re doing by trying to give Lebron extra credit for it.
There is obviously something impressive about going to 3 different franchises with 3 different cultures/structures and winning at each place. In my opinion though, its more impressive to actually stay somewhere, help build up the people around you like Russell, Jordan and Duncan did, and create a long-term winning culture. Lebron playing on and leaving 3 different franchises is evidence that he ainÂ’t really that type of great player and he needs to be somewhere where there is already established great players in place or at least thereÂ’s a plan for that to happen and he will leave the moment it looks like things are going south.

What are you saying? There have been countless superstars PAST and PRESENT who left their original teams. And subsequent teams later. By trade or otherwise. If you were to ask them what their 'goals' were? Well, they wouldn't tell you they weren't trying to win :oldlol:

Lebron won all his championships as THE catalyst and undisputed best player. Again, this isn't a Durant situation.

Him potentially winning for three different teams would be a great feat...because he would've likely led the way. That doesn't belittle other ATGs. If anything it just speaks to Lebron's greatness.


Sure, but does he deserve extra credit for it? Jordan brought the Bulls not only its 1st title but 5 more after that :oldlol: – a franchise that also hasn’t done much since. Maybe he deserves it when comparing him to Magic, Bird, or Kobe, but not Jordan.

In a vacuum he deserves a ton of credit. Compared to Jordan though obviously there's gonna be some diminishing returns. Along with Lebron's actual play, winning less is also why I don't rate him over Jordan.


You can say this about plenty of championship teams.

So Lebron would get credit for winning with a 3rd team. Glad we agree.

[SwayDizzle]

op..... um

lemme talk to ya over here for sec

:lol

[Hey Yo]

I don’t understand why Lebron should get extra credit for winning with multiple teams. It’s an arbitrary achievement. Shouldn’t give him credit for something that many of the greats he’s compared to didn’t even bother trying to do. You can argue it’s more impressive to do it with one team where they played a huge hand in building a winning culture that had a longer-term impact on the franchise as opposed to just team hopping around to play with or expect to play with already established stars.
Same thing could be said about MJ winning more rings after he rested up for a few years.

It’s an arbitrary achievement. Shouldn’t give MJ credit for something that many of the greats he’s compared to didn’t even bother trying to do.

[Da_Realist]

Same thing could be said about MJ winning more rings after he rested up for a few years.

It’s an arbitrary achievement. Shouldn’t give MJ credit for something that many of the greats he’s compared to didn’t even bother trying to do.

Many of the NBA greats he's compared to never won a threepeat to begin with.

As far as the wider world of sports, Muhammad Ali is all I can think of. Leaving the sport at the top of his game and then come back to dominate a new set of stars.

[Phoenix]

Same thing could be said about MJ winning more rings after he rested up for a few years.



Cha-ching. You can cash out now.

[Hey Yo]

Many of the NBA greats he's compared to never won a threepeat to begin with.

As far as the wider world of sports, Muhammad Ali is all I can think of. Leaving the sport at the top of his game and then come back to dominate a new set of stars.
But the many greats you're referring to never took the route MJ did. Nobody won a ring(s) then sat out a few years in their primes, only to comeback to try to win more rings. Those greats didn't run out of gas in their primes. I mean, MJ only played 7 full consecutive seasons before deciding to walk away. I wouldn't say there was a big new batch of NBA stars for MJ to face. Shaq, Kemp, Penny and maybe a few others, but mostly were still the same like the Knicks, Pacers and we both know Jazz didn't have any "new set of stars"

After Ali declared his retirement in Sept. of 76, he returned to the ring May of 77. Then fought again in Sept. of 77. He hardly dominated Ernie Shavers (I watched that fight) and was beat by Spinks and humiliated by Larry Holmes. His comeback was nothing close to domination.

[guy]

What are you saying? There have been countless superstars PAST and PRESENT who left their original teams. And subsequent teams later. By trade or otherwise. If you were to ask them what their 'goals' were? Well, they wouldn't tell you they weren't trying to win :oldlol:

You misunderstood. That’s not what I’m saying at all. Obviously superstars are trying to win it all on every team they play for. What I’m saying is its not a “goal” for them to win multiple championships specifically on different teams. This doesn’t really apply to players who leave their original teams when they didn’t win there anyway. Example: After Bird won his 2nd title with the Celtics, he didn’t want to join the Knicks because it would mean more if he got his 3rd title with a different team other than the Celtics.

And I’m not saying that’s a goal Lebron specifically went out to attain. I’m just pointing out its not a goal of players, which is why a lot of players didn’t even attempt it so they weren’t even in a position to have this arbitrary achievement. So, if someone actually does achieve it, then it shouldn’t be given extra credit.

Point is someone winning 4 titles with 3 different teams shouldn’t be considered a greater achievement then someone winning 4 titles with the same team all else equal (so just looking at the achievement on its face) Again, if I had to choose between the 2, I would say its more impressive to win it all with the same team because that means that player usually had a hand in building a franchise up over the long-term – with that said I’m not sure I’d say it deserves extra credit.

You’re a reasonable poster so I’m not sure you actually think one is the better then the other. But I’ve heard numerous people in the media make it a big deal and imply that 4 titles with 3 different teams would put him over Jordan. Its ridiculous to me how far they’ll reach to make this argument. I mean it seems like there’s been consistent attempts to give Lebron extra credit for many of the things he’s done throughout his career – just look at the arguments people were making for the MVP.



Lebron won all his championships as THE catalyst and undisputed best player. Again, this isn't a Durant situation.
So did Durant. But yes, I agree the situations were different and Lebron deserves more credit for it. In both cases though, they joined championship winning cultures built by elite front offices and another great player that led the same team to a championship not long before. I think that’s different from some of the other championships won by other superstars and that factor isn’t visible in stats, team records, quality of teammates, etc.



Him potentially winning for three different teams would be a great feat...because he would've likely led the way. That doesn't belittle other ATGs. If anything it just speaks to Lebron's greatness.
You can say it doesn’t belittle other ATGs to give it extra credit, but like it or not, we compare players all the time so they’re greatness is all relative to each other.



So Lebron would get credit for winning with a 3rd team. Glad we agree.
The fact that he won 1 more title he should get credit for, but the fact that it would be with his 3rd team shouldn’t make a difference.

[Phoenix]

But the many greats you're referring to never took the route MJ did. Nobody won a ring(s) then sat out a few years in their primes, only to comeback to try to win more rings. Those greats didn't run out of gas in their primes. I mean, MJ only played 7 full consecutive seasons before deciding to walk away. I wouldn't say there was a big new batch of NBA stars for MJ to face. Shaq, Kemp, Penny and maybe a few others, but mostly were still the same like the Knicks, Pacers and we both know Jazz didn't have any "new set of stars"



What on court evidence in 93 exists that shows he was running out of gas, at least in terms of level of play? He played 78 games, averaged 33/7/6 on 39mpg during the season and 41/9/6 in the finals on 46mpg. Nothing there, the number of games, the statistical production, the heavy minutes, is consistent with the idea that he was out of gas, even if it was 'mentally' out of gas. And it's likely he was that before the 93 season ended.

Which takes us to the murder of his father. You weirdly tapdance around that to present this intellectually dishonest argument that no external factors influenced his decision to walk away. Then you say no greats took his route to which I simply ask which greats, before or since, were presented with such a unique personal tragedy. And what makes you an expert in determining how someone should deal with such a tragedy?

[guy]

Same thing could be said about MJ winning more rings after he rested up for a few years.

It’s an arbitrary achievement. Shouldn’t give MJ credit for something that many of the greats he’s compared to didn’t even bother trying to do.

WTF are you talking about? So we're just making shit up now? I've barely ever heard anyone give him extra credit for taking a break in between. Most people just bring up that he won 6 and had 2 three-peats.

[Da_Realist]

You misunderstood. That’s not what I’m saying at all. Obviously superstars are trying to win it all on every team they play for. What I’m saying is its not a “goal” for them to win multiple championships specifically on different teams. This doesn’t really apply to players who leave their original teams when they didn’t win there anyway. Example: After Bird won his 2nd title with the Celtics, he didn’t want to join the Knicks because it would mean more if he got his 3rd title with a different team other than the Celtics.

And I’m not saying that’s a goal Lebron specifically went out to attain. I’m just pointing out its not a goal of players, which is why a lot of players didn’t even attempt it so they weren’t even in a position to have this arbitrary achievement. So, if someone actually does achieve it, then it shouldn’t be given extra credit.

Point is someone winning 4 titles with 3 different teams shouldn’t be considered a greater achievement then someone winning 4 titles with the same team all else equal (so just looking at the achievement on its face) Again, if I had to choose between the 2, I would say its more impressive to win it all with the same team because that means that player usually had a hand in building a franchise up over the long-term – with that said I’m not sure I’d say it deserves extra credit.

You’re a reasonable poster so I’m not sure you actually think one is the better then the other. But I’ve heard numerous people in the media make it a big deal and imply that 4 titles with 3 different teams would put him over Jordan. Its ridiculous to me how far they’ll reach to make this argument. I mean it seems like there’s been consistent attempts to give Lebron extra credit for many of the things he’s done throughout his career – just look at the arguments people were making for the MVP.

And it's far more difficult to defend your title than it is to win it the first time. MJ successfully defended his title 4 times. That's a greater accomplishment than fishing for new teammates (and coach and GM) and winning it fresh in a weakened conference (because you pilfered 2 or 3 competitors best talent) usually after leaving a team following an embarrassing loss and no desire to reclaim glory.

[Da_Realist]

After Ali declared his retirement in Sept. of 76, he returned to the ring May of 77. Then fought again in Sept. of 77. He hardly dominated Ernie Shavers (I watched that fight) and was beat by Spinks and humiliated by Larry Holmes. His comeback was nothing close to domination.

You're catering your post to the idiot that does not know what happened to Ali during his prime. Even non-boxing fans know what happened but I'm sure there is some guy living under a rock that has no regard for truth that will actually think what you wrote is an honest response.

[Phoenix]

WTF are you talking about? So we're just making shit up now? I've barely ever heard anyone give him extra credit for taking a break in between. Most people just bring up that he won 6 and had 2 three-peats.

The idiocy in the argument is him acting like winning a championship, even coming off a 16 month 'retirement', is an easily achievable goal provided you've been able to 'rest up'. Winning a championship is hard as fukk under ANY conditions.

[72-10]

how can you deny that MJ's efficiency tanked in '93? It wasn't merely a matter of relying more and more upon mid-range; he was fatigued from 7 straight years of having his motor throttling compounded with the 1992 Olympics meaning almost no break between the 1991-92 and 1992-93 seasons.

[Duncan21formvp]

Lebron can't even beat Kawhi in the playoffs with HCA and with 2 other stars. Lebron isn't even the best on his squad. His teammate has a better PER and Win Shares.

[Hey Yo]

What on court evidence in 93 exists that shows he was running out of gas, at least in terms of level of play? He played 78 games, averaged 33/7/6 on 39mpg during the season and 41/9/6 in the finals on 46mpg. Nothing there, the number of games, the statistical production, the heavy minutes, is consistent with the idea that he was out of gas, even if it was 'mentally' out of gas. And it's likely he was that before the 93 season ended.

Which takes us to the murder of his father. You weirdly tapdance around that to present this intellectually dishonest argument that no external factors influenced his decision to walk away. Then you say no greats took his route to which I simply ask which greats, before or since, were presented with such a unique personal tragedy. And what makes you an expert in determining how someone should deal with such a tragedy?
There wasn't any as far as court play goes. It's been documented though that he was close to stepping away after the 1991 season, in which had nothing to do with his father.

If he was so distraught and needed to quit basketball due to his fathers death, then why not so distraught to hurry up and play baseball 3mos. later?

[Smoke117]

I don't really care about this whole Bran vs Ordan argument in general, but it doesn't really help the latter's argument that the ones picking him are nutcases like Coach, ClipperRevival, 3ball, etc. The entire argument against? A wheel chair bown half retard. Everyone already knows Jordan is greater than LeRun James. Only Ordan fans need to lose sleep obsessing over it....and also kobe stans, obviously. Imkobrick hasn't made a decent post since 2013.

[FireDavidKahn]

LeBron wins again:bowdown:

[Smoke117]

LeBron wins again:bowdown:

You really need to calm down, bruh. You are just too high strung, lately. It's just obnoxiously...obnoxious.

[Phoenix]

There wasn't any as far as court play goes. It's been documented though that he was close to stepping away after the 1991 season, in which had nothing to do with his father.

If he was so distraught and needed to quit basketball due to his fathers death, then why not so distraught to hurry up and play baseball 3mos. later?

Where is this documentation and what were his stated reasons for wanting to step away in 91?

Good question. There is always the story that MJ was actually told to step away from the game because of the gambling issue. He's also on record as asking Phil Jackson for challenges( coming off a 3 peat, 2 MVPs in 3 years) and Phil couldn't come up with one. Then the whole father incident.

I mean, make of it what you will but it seems simplistic to boil it down merely to fatigue and ignore the external stuff going on. I'm merely asking what makes you an expert in determining how he should have handled that stuff. I don't claim to have all the facts, but I'm not the one making these sweeping generalizations that he wasn't mentally strong enough to keep playing. Just the fact that he went on to play baseball should indicate that the guy still had some sense of competitive drive. It's not like he was sitting on his ass eating doritos for a year and a half.

Also didn't he say that his father had wanted him to try and play baseball professionally and while he wasn't alive to see it, MJ was fulfilling one of his wishes?

[guy]

There wasn't any as far as court play goes. It's been documented though that he was close to stepping away after the 1991 season, in which had nothing to do with his father.

If he was so distraught and needed to quit basketball due to his fathers death, then why not so distraught to hurry up and play baseball 3mos. later?

He wasn't close to stepping away after the 91 season. There was talks of it, but he was never close. But the biggest thing driving that possibility at that time was HIS FATHER who wanted him to try baseball now that he had finally won in basketball. So it had everything to do with his father.

He played baseball 3 months after retirement because he wanted to honor his father. So yes, he was distraught and that was a major reason he left basketball and pursued baseball.

And seriously, what the **** is wrong with you? What kind of person judges and questions how another person, especially a complete stranger, mourns the death of a loved one especially under the circumstances they died? Shut the **** up man.

There are definitely people that deserve to be allowed to speak on eras they never watched. You're clearly not one of them.

[guy]

Where is this documentation and what were his stated reasons for wanting to step away in 91?

Good question. There is always the story that MJ was actually told to step away from the game because of the gambling issue. He's also on record as asking Phil Jackson for challenges( coming off a 3 peat, 2 MVPs in 3 years) and Phil couldn't come up with one. Then the whole father incident.

I mean, make of it what you will but it seems simplistic to boil it down merely to fatigue and ignore the external stuff going on. I'm merely asking what makes you an expert in determining how he should have handled that stuff. I don't claim to have all the facts, but I'm not the one making these sweeping generalizations that he wasn't mentally strong enough to keep playing. Just the fact that he went on to play baseball should indicate that the guy still had some sense of competitive drive. It's not like he was sitting on his ass eating doritos for a year and a half.

Also didn't he say that his father had wanted him to try and play baseball professionally and while he wasn't alive to see it, MJ was fulfilling one of his wishes?

His lack of challenges/motivation after dominating the sport to a degree that pretty much no one had on both a team/individual level for those 3 years was probably either the 2nd biggest reason he retired or the biggest reason and his father's death was just the breaking point. Then the 2nd time he retired, clearly that same reason was probably the biggest reason. The thing is if he never dominated to that degree, he probably doesn't lose the motivation, and doesn't ever retire prematurely. Which means he probably does break more records and is the all-time leading scorer in points in the regular season, playoffs, Finals, has more all-nba teams, more all-star games, all-time leader in steals, maybe more Finals appearances, maybe more MVPs, but not the number of rings. He would basically have a better version of Lebron's current resume.

His lack of motivation/challenges after winning so much did Lebron and really the entire current sports media a favor. Cause if Jordan not only had won as much as he did if not more, but also had these insane statistical/awards records, there wouldn't be ANY room for an argument - there shouldn't be anyway, but for whatever reason there is. Its almost like he was too damn good he had to take a few years off to make it even look like Lebron or anyone else in the future had a chance. :oldlol:

[red1]

I dont hold MJ's gambling debts against him. and I like the fact that he used to punch his teammates in the face in practice - thats great leadership if you ask me. we all know kerr drilled that shot in the finals, who knows what would've happened if he didnt socked in the jaw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2BlOTeoZVE


what I cant forgive MJ for is the fact that he went 1-9 without scottie "tree-trunk" pippen. thats just absurd. you can even ask madonna, MJ wasnt shit without scottie.

[Phoenix]

His lack of challenges/motivation after dominating the sport to a degree that pretty much no one had on both a team/individual level for those 3 years was probably either the 2nd biggest reason he retired or the biggest reason and his father's death was just the breaking point. Then the 2nd time he retired, clearly that same reason was probably the biggest reason. The thing is if he never dominated to that degree, he probably doesn't lose the motivation, and doesn't ever retire prematurely. Which means he probably does break more records and is the all-time leading scorer in points in the regular season, playoffs, Finals, has more all-nba teams, more all-star games, all-time leader in steals, maybe more Finals appearances, maybe more MVPs, but not the number of rings. He would basically have a better version of Lebron's current resume.

His lack of motivation/challenges after winning so much did Lebron and really the entire current sports media a favor. Cause if Jordan not only had won as much as he did if not more, but also had these insane statistical/awards records, there wouldn't be ANY room for an argument - there shouldn't be anyway, but for whatever reason there is. Its almost like he was too damn good he had to take a few years off to make it even look like Lebron or anyone else in the future had a chance. :oldlol:

I'm going to say 'realistically', missing those 64 games in 86, the entire 94 season and 3/4 of the 95 cost him the all-time scoring record. He could have retired in 98, no old man Wizards comeback, and set the mark at 35 years old. Coming back as a Wizard merely pushes it to 40k plus. And at the bare minimum the Bulls likely win the 94 title so that's another ring and most certainly the FMVP with it. I'm thinking Hakeem still gets the MVP in 94. 95 is a bit murkier but I won't underestimate the impact of no Grant there even if MJ hadn't stepped away. The Bulls needed that interior rebounder/defender to get past the Magic and Rockets. So TLDR he left around 7k in points and 1 ring/finals MVP on the table.