Who Was A Better or Greater Player: Kevin McHale or Scottie Pippen?

[Round Mound]

Who do you think was a greater player: Kevin McHale or Scottie Pippen?

Kevin McHale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAEf73XOaYc

Scottie Pippen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xiIj46b1_8&t=731s

[AussieSteve]

Pretty close, but I think McHale's great defense and ATG post scoring, edges Scottie's ATG defense and play making by a hair.

[superduper]

Who would be the better true first option to a team?

[r0drig0lac]

Who would be the better true first option to a team?

in 2020? Pippen imo

[FromDowntown]

McHale for scoring
Pippen for everything else.
You tell me.

[iamgine]

I know Barkley sang huge praise for Mchale but I don't know if outside of that one great season Mchale was ever viewed that highly. He was almost never considered for MVP while guys like Nique, English or Moncrief would get a lot more MVP votes. I bet Pippen edges out those guys in many people's minds.

[Phoenix]

I know Barkley sang huge praise for Mchale but I don't know if outside of that one great season Mchale was ever viewed that highly. He was almost never considered for MVP while guys like Nique, English or Moncrief would get a lot more MVP votes. I bet Pippen edges out those guys in many people's minds.

His best years also happened to coincide with Bird's peak/prime, so he never would have been in the running for the award in that situation.

[superduper]

in 2020? Pippen imo

Yeah I guess the answer comes down to which era the question is asked for which I think is unfair, it's so hard to compare two players in a vacuum anymore given how much the game has changed.

[Stanley Kobrick]

Yeah I guess the answer comes down to which era the question is asked for which I think is unfair, it's so hard to compare two players in a vacuum anymore given how much the game has changed.
so complex. so many variables

[iamgine]

His best years also happened to coincide with Bird's peak/prime, so he never would have been in the running for the award in that situation.

Well Pippen's best years also coincide with MJ but he's had a lot more considerations. Even Worthy who played with Magic & Kareem had more votes than Mchale in 1986. I feel like Mchale's viewed more like Klay Thompson's level while Pippen's viewed higher...like Chris Paul level.

[FireDavidKahn]

Easily Pippen. He was still able to win 55 games in the same conference that MJ won 57 in.

[Phoenix]

Well Pippen's best years also coincide with MJ but he's had a lot more considerations. Even Worthy who played with Magic & Kareem had more votes than Mchale in 1986. I feel like Mchale's viewed more like Klay Thompson's level while Pippen's viewed higher...like Chris Paul level.

Pippen also got the chance to show us what he could do without MJ in 94, Mchale never got that chance during his peak days. I can't speak as to why Worthy received more MVP consideration considering their respective level of importance on their teams. Worthy was a clear 3rd banana on the Showtime Lakers for most of the 80's, whereas Mchale was the clearcut 2nd option on that 86 Celtics squad. On a related note, that Celtics team won 67 games with Mchale missing 14. Could have won 70+ a decade before the Bulls did.

[superduper]

Bird and Mchale in this era would be a joke, they would destroy everything.

[iamgine]

Pippen also got the chance to show us what he could do without MJ in 94, Mchale never got that chance during his peak days. I can't speak as to why Worthy received more MVP consideration considering their respective level of importance on their teams. Worthy was a clear 3rd banana on the Showtime Lakers for most of the 80's, whereas Mchale was the clearcut 2nd option on that 86 Celtics squad. On a related note, that Celtics team won 67 games with Mchale missing 14. Could have won 70+ a decade before the Bulls did.
Well if Worthy could get MVP considerations, then Mchale even with Bird should be able to get some if he's viewed highly. And he actually did when he did great in '87, but not other years.

[SouBeachTalents]

I feel a lot of people don't even realize McHale was the Celtics leading scorer in a lot of big series

'85 ECF
'85 Finals
'86 Finals
'88 ECF

He was putting up 25+ on damn near Shaq like efficiency while not even getting the most shot attempts on his team

[ImKobe]

I feel a lot of people don't even realize McHale was the Celtics leading scorer in a lot of big series

'85 ECF
'85 Finals
'86 Finals
'88 ECF

He was putting up 25+ on damn near Shaq like efficiency while not even getting the most shot attempts on his team

Yup. he averaged 25/9/3 with 2.4 blocks a game with a 64%TS for the '86 title run. Led that team in scoring with 26/9 on 63%TS in the Finals against Houston. He was a better offensive player than Pippen.

[1987_Lakers]

Well Pippen's best years also coincide with MJ but he's had a lot more considerations. Even Worthy who played with Magic & Kareem had more votes than Mchale in 1986. I feel like Mchale's viewed more like Klay Thompson's level while Pippen's viewed higher...like Chris Paul level.

The problem is, McHale had a short peak, but at his peak he was a monster, I'd give Pippen the edge if we are talking about careers, but give me McHale at his peak. McHale finished #4 in MVP voting in '87, playing with a prime Bird. The only time Pippen finished in top 5 in MVP voting while playing with MJ was in '96 and he has the longevity edge compared to McHale.

[iamgine]

The problem is, McHale had a short peak, but at his peak he was a monster, I'd give Pippen the edge if we are talking about careers, but give me McHale at his peak. McHale finished #4 in MVP voting in '87, playing with a prime Bird. The only time Pippen finished in top 5 in MVP voting while playing with MJ was in '96 and he has the longevity edge compared to McHale.
That's what I was saying since the beginning. I don't know if outside of that one great season Mchale was ever viewed that highly.

[3ball]

I feel a lot of people don't even realize McHale was the Celtics leading scorer in a lot of big series

'85 ECF
'85 Finals
'86 Finals
'88 ECF

He was putting up 25+ on damn near Shaq like efficiency while not even getting the most shot attempts on his team
this






I feel a lot of people don't even realize McHale was the Celtics leading scorer in a lot of big series

'85 ECF
'85 Finals
'86 Finals
'88 ECF

He was putting up 25+ on damn near Shaq like efficiency while not even getting the most shot attempts on his team


people itt aren't realizing a lot of things about McHale

He is in the running for goat post skill - right there with Hakeem and Duncan - a smaller version of them, basically, with great defense instead of goat defense.

He would've averaged 30+ multiple seasons in a row if he had his own team.. One of the most underrated and a overlooked players ever.. Unlike Pippen who always scored 10-30 less than MJ in every series (carried), McHale was often an equal or greater scoring partner to Bird in the biggest series.

[1987_Lakers]

That's what I was saying since the beginning. I don't know if outside of that one great season Mchale was ever viewed that highly.

Excluding '87, from '85-'88 McHale still had a PER of around 21, which is the same exact PER Pippen had when he played with MJ throughout the 90's.

[1987_Lakers]

this




people itt aren't realizing a lot of things about McHale

He is in the running for goat post skill - right there with Hakeem and Duncan - a smaller version of them, basically, with great defense instead of goat defense.

He would've averaged 30+ multiple seasons in a row if he had his own team.. One of the most underrated and a overlooked players ever.. Unlike Pippen who always scored 10-30 less than MJ in every series (carried), McHale was often an equal or greater scoring partner to Bird in the biggest series.

Calm down 3ball, career wise Pippen is still ahead of McHale.

[tpols]

McHale for scoring
Pippen for everything else.
You tell me.

So Ben wallace >> steve nash?

[3ball]

Calm down 3ball, career wise Pippen is still ahead of McHale.
According to your logic, so is Horry

[RRR3]

3ball working himself up into a frenzy again over his lover MJ.

[1987_Lakers]

According to your logic, so is Horry

Pippen has more individual accolades than both McHale and Horry so I don't see your point.

[3ball]

Pippen has more individual accolades than both McHale and Horry so I don't see your point.
if it was a simple as counting up the accolades, this thread wouldn't exist

when you delve into the numbers, it's clear that Pippen is one of the most mis-judged, un-clutch, carried and overrated players of any popular player

No one has benefitted more from both system and their #1 option than Pippen.. or the winning spotlight

[1987_Lakers]

if it was a simple as counting up the accolades, this thread wouldn't exist

when you delve into the numbers, it's clear that Pippen is one of the most mis-judged, un-clutch, carried and overrated players if any popular player

No one has benefitted more from both system and their #1 option than Pippen

1-9 without Pippen, never forget.

[3ball]

1-9 without Pippen, never forget.
1-9 means that MJ was probably carrying casts that were lottery the prior year to low seeds, and therefore faced the biggest odds, aka 8 vs 1 seed

oh look, that's exactly what happened.

otoh, lebron has always failed to carry lottery casts to low playoff seeds, so he missed 1st Round matchups with the champion Pistons in 05', or the goat Warriors in 19' - instead, he only made the playoffs with high seeds/good teams and therefore easy 1st round matchups (aka Arenas' Wizards)

Indeed lebron missed the playoffs with the East all-star center in 05', and needed to add a COY, top team defense, and 22/5/5 all-defender sidekick to make it in 06'.. Overall, Lebron's 05-10' rosters are littered with all-star, all-defenders, top defenses and decorated coaches, while 85-89' MJ had an accolade-less cast - a worse cast than lebron ever had

[RRR3]

Saying LeBron’s 05-10 teams are “littered with all-stars” is permaban worthy.

[3ball]

Saying LeBron’s 05-10 teams are “littered with all-stars” is permaban worthy.
cutting off my sentence to change the meaning should be perma-ban worthy..

Jamison was 2-time all-star and still getting his peak stats right before joining lebron - so that's 3 all-stars including Mo and Zydrunas...

plus 2 all-defenders (Hughes, Varejao).. plus several top defenses and a COY

MJ's 85-89' casts had none of this.. an accolade-less cast, while Lebron's 04-10' teams were infact littered with all-star, all-defenders, top defenses and coy's

[RRR3]

Permaban time

[3ball]

Permaban time



Admit it - this is one of the better responses to "1-9" you've ever seen:





1-9 means that MJ was probably carrying casts that were lottery the prior year to low seeds, and therefore faced the biggest odds, aka 8 vs 1 seed

oh look, that's exactly what happened.

otoh, lebron has always failed to carry lottery casts to low playoff seeds, so he missed 1st Round matchups with the champion Pistons in 05', or the goat Warriors in 19' - instead, he only made the playoffs with high seeds/good teams and therefore easy 1st round matchups (aka Arenas' Wizards)

Indeed, lebron missed the playoffs with the East all-star center in 05', and needed to add a COY, top team defense, and 22/5/5 all-defender sidekick to make it in 06'.. Overall, Lebron's 05-10' rosters are littered with all-stars (jamison, mo, zydrunas), all-defenders (hughes, varejao), top defenses (07', 09') and decorated coaches (coy brown), while 85-89' MJ had none of this - an accolade-less cast, aka worse cast than lebron ever had

[RRR3]

Permaban time.

We’re all sick of this madman spamming threads with his delusions ramblings.

[3ball]

Permaban time.

We’re all sick of this madman spamming threads with his delusions ramblings.
keep in mind that Giannis also has low-seeded, 1st Round exits because similar to Jordan, Giannis was able to carry lottery casts to low seeds.. Otoh, we know that Lebron failed to carry lottery casts to low seeds, and only made the playoffs with good teams/high seeds relative to his conference comp (notably weak)

[RRR3]

Dude no one responds to you seriously. You are regarded as an annoying fly, buzzing around causing a nuisance. Nothing more. Start contributing to the board if you want to be engaged seriously with.

[3ball]

Dude no one responds to you seriously. You are regarded as an annoying fly, buzzing around causing a nuisance. Nothing more. Start contributing to the board if you want to be engaged seriously with.
I don't want to "be engaged" because I'm not debating - I'm informing you of the facts, most of which you weren't aware of or hadn't considered. I prefer it when posters don't melt down as you have, but I'm used to it at this point and appreciate you like the others

So as I was saying, like, there's levels to this shit

[Round Mound]

McHale without or with the broken foot in 87 was considered the best PF in the game and the most difficult to guard in the post. Prime McHale > Pippen. Longevity is what Pippen has over McHale cause he was more athletic and durable. I'd go with a healthy McHale over Pippen.

[sdot_thadon]

I'm going with Pippen. Mchale had a better peak year by the numbers, but Scottie did it alot longer. Somewhere around 10 more all league selections than Mchale in his career, That's a gulf between them.

[3ball]

Saying LeBron’s 05-10 teams are “littered with all-stars” is permaban worthy.
translation: I read 3ball's entire post word for word

#3ballwinning

[TheCorporation]

I feel a lot of people don't even realize McHale was the Celtics leading scorer in a lot of big series

'85 ECF
'85 Finals
'86 Finals
'88 ECF

He was putting up 25+ on damn near Shaq like efficiency while not even getting the most shot attempts on his team

Bird's teams were STACKED

[iamgine]

Excluding '87, from '85-'88 McHale still had a PER of around 21, which is the same exact PER Pippen had when he played with MJ throughout the 90's.

I don't doubt he has good PER. Just not viewed too highly back then.

[3ball]

any player with a poor iso game is a system player and needs that system to produce and be considered a decent player - guys like Draymond and Pippen were like this, and nowhere near guys like McHale, who often led the Celtics in big series and would've averaged 30 with his own team

Pippen's 55 wins without MJ = Lowry's 55 wins this year (on pace), or DeRozan winning 60, or Marc Gasol winning 55 in Memphis - everybody does it, and they didn't need a 3-peat system like Pippen did

[TheCorporation]

any player with a poor iso game is a system player and needs that system to produce and be considered a decent player - guys like Draymond and Pippen were like this, and nowhere near guys like McHale, who often led the Celtics in big series and would've averaged 30 with his own team

Pippen's 55 wins without MJ = Lowry's 55 wins this year (on pace), or DeRozan winning 60, or Marc Gasol winning 55 in Memphis - everybody does it, and they didn't need a 3-peat system like Pippen did

Imagine trading LeBron for Pete Myers and only dropping down by 2 wins, from 57 to 55 like the Bulls did in 93 to 94 when Jordan quit

[3ball]

Imagine trading LeBron for Pete Myers and only dropping down by 2 wins, from 57 to 55 like the Bulls did in 93 to 94 when Jordan quit
you have to play great BASKETBALL to 3-peat.. you can't play lebron-ball

imagine if lebron lifted a 2nd round team to 3-peat... he isn't capable.. heck, him and Bosh joined a 48-win team in 2011 and couldn't do shit - 2/4 including goat choke and goat loss

[Uncle Drew]

No Pip, no chip.

[3ball]

No Pip, no chip.





Anyone would do better than these performances:



1988 RD 1 vs. CLE......10.6 on 47.1%
1988 ECSF vs. DET...... 9.4 on 45.8%

1989 RD 1 vs. CLE......15.0 on 39.8%
1989 ECF vs. DET........ 9.7 on 40.2%


1990 ECF vs DET........16.6 on 42.8%

1992 ECSF vs NYN.....16.0 on 40.2%

1993 RD 1 vs. ATL..... 15.0 on 42.2%

1995 ECSF vs ORL.....19.0 on 40.9%

1996 ECSF vs NYN.... 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA... 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS.....16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF vs. MIA..... 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECF vs IND....... 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA... 15.7 on 41.0%

1999 RD 1 vs LAL...... 18.3 on 32.9%


No all-time great consistently played that badly - only MJ had to win with that crap

And defense is irrelevant because the Bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat - so MJ's overall defensive help was inferior, including a worse defense than every conference finals and Finals opponent (except the Suns' #9 defense)

[LAmbruh]

Anyone would do better than these performances:



1988 RD 1 vs. CLE......10.6 on 47.1%
1988 ECSF vs. DET...... 9.4 on 45.8%

1989 RD 1 vs. CLE......15.0 on 39.8%
1989 ECF vs. DET........ 9.7 on 40.2%


1990 ECF vs DET........16.6 on 42.8%

1992 ECSF vs NYN.....16.0 on 40.2%

1993 RD 1 vs. ATL..... 15.0 on 42.2%

1995 ECSF vs ORL.....19.0 on 40.9%

1996 ECSF vs NYN.... 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA... 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS.....16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF vs. MIA..... 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECF vs IND....... 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA... 15.7 on 41.0%

1999 RD 1 vs LAL...... 18.3 on 32.9%


No all-time great consistently played that badly - only MJ had to win with that crap

And defense is irrelevant because the Bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat - so MJ's overall defensive help was inferior, including a worse defense than every conference finals and Finals opponent (except the Suns' #9 defense)

no pip no chip

[3ball]

no pip no chip
who else could win by scoring 10-30 more than their sidekick for every series of their career, while matching them in assists and only having the #7 team defense? and the sidekick never closes (most unclutch player ever)

only MJ can win with that - only mj DID win with that

We already know that Lebron needs an equal-scoring and usage clutch assassin to win

carry on fool.. only on ISH will posters pretend a guy played great in a series he shot 32.9% and was widely panned for - see the recent thread on Pippen's 1999 1st Round

[scuzzy]

who else could win by scoring 10-30 more than their sidekick for every series of their career, while matching them in assists and only having the #7 team defense? and the sidekick never closes (most unclutch player ever)

only MJ can win with that - only mj DID win with that

We already know that Lebron needs an equal-scoring and usage clutch assassin to win

carry on fool.. only on ISH will posters pretend a guy played great in a series he shot 32.9% and was widely panned for - see the recent thread on Pippen's 1999 1st Round
no pip no chip

[3ball]

no pip no chip
no 3rd star (Big 3) no chip

no equal-scoring and usage sidekick, no chip

no clutch assassin/closer sidekick, no chip

I think that consistently winning with a 15 ppg and 35% shooting sidekick is more impressive

[SouBeachTalents]

no 3rd star (Big 3) no chip

no equal-scoring and usage sidekick, no chip

no clutch assassin/closer sidekick, no chip

I think that consistently winning with a 15 ppg and 35% shooting sidekick is more impressive
no pip no chip

[3ball]

no pip no chip
no 3rd star (Big 3) no chip

no equal-scoring and usage sidekick, no chip

no clutch assassin/closer sidekick, no chip

I think that consistently winning with a 15 ppg and 35% shooting sidekick, while always nearly doubling him in scoring is more impressive

[LAmbruh]

no 3rd star (Big 3) no chip

no equal-scoring and usage sidekick, no chip

no clutch assassin/closer sidekick, no chip

I think that consistently winning with a 15 ppg and 35% shooting sidekick, while always nearly doubling him in scoring is more impressive
no pip no chip

[3ball]

no pip no chip
no 3rd star (Big 3) no chip

no equal-scoring and usage sidekick, no chip

no clutch assassin/closer sidekick, no chip

I think that consistently winning with a 15 ppg and 35% shooting sidekick, while always nearly doubling him in scoring is more impressive

[LAmbruh]

no 3rd star (Big 3) no chip

no equal-scoring and usage sidekick, no chip

no clutch assassin/closer sidekick, no chip

I think that consistently winning with a 15 ppg and 35% shooting sidekick, while always nearly doubling him in scoring is more impressive

yes pip yes chip

[red1]

scottie pippen is factually the better player. mchale was an all-time post scorer but scottie is the GOAT perimeter defender alongside kawhi. plus a great ballhandler to take the pressure off the first option of any championship team.


I'm going scottie.

[Uncle Drew]

Anyone would do better than these performances:



1988 RD 1 vs. CLE......10.6 on 47.1%
1988 ECSF vs. DET...... 9.4 on 45.8%

1989 RD 1 vs. CLE......15.0 on 39.8%
1989 ECF vs. DET........ 9.7 on 40.2%


1990 ECF vs DET........16.6 on 42.8%

1992 ECSF vs NYN.....16.0 on 40.2%

1993 RD 1 vs. ATL..... 15.0 on 42.2%

1995 ECSF vs ORL.....19.0 on 40.9%

1996 ECSF vs NYN.... 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA... 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS.....16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF vs. MIA..... 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECF vs IND....... 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA... 15.7 on 41.0%

1999 RD 1 vs LAL...... 18.3 on 32.9%


No all-time great consistently played that badly - only MJ had to win with that crap

And defense is irrelevant because the Bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat - so MJ's overall defensive help was inferior, including a worse defense than every conference finals and Finals opponent (except the Suns' #9 defense)

No Pip, no chip.

[3ball]

scottie pippen is factually the better player. mchale was an all-time post scorer but scottie is the GOAT perimeter defender alongside kawhi. plus a great ballhandler to take the pressure off the first option of any championship team.


I'm going scottie.
everything you said is false

pippen wasn't a great ballhandler and had no iso moves

nor did he take any pressure off because MJ matched him in assists and had to score 5 more ppg than everyone in playoff history - he had the biggest gap ever between the 1 and 2 option (10-30 less than MJ in every series)

TLDR: he's the worst 2nd option ever since he made MJ do the most ever (#1 PER, BPM, WS/48)

[red1]

everything you said is false

pippen wasn't a great ballhandler and had no iso moves

nor did he take any pressure off because MJ matched him in assists and had to score 5 more ppg than everyone in playoff history and had the biggest gap ever between the 1 and 2 option (10-30 less than MJ in every series)

no pip no chip bitch. just face the facts fakkit.




I think it was 1-9? or something like that. :oldlol:

[red1]

dude what was that record without mj? I cant recall?




Im talking about the scottie pippen bulls here.

[red1]

everything you said is false

pippen wasn't a great ballhandler and had no iso moves

nor did he take any pressure off because MJ matched him in assists and had to score 5 more ppg than everyone in playoff history - he had the biggest gap ever between the 1 and 2 option (10-30 less than MJ in every series)

he's the worst 2nd option ever since he made MJ do the most ever (#1 PER, BPM, WS/48)

and why are you lying? everything I said is FACTUALLY accurate.


mchale is undeniably one of the GOAT post-scorers with all of the moves that he had.


and pippen is undeniably one of the GOAT defenders alongside kawhi.



just face the facts bitch.

[3ball]

dude what was that record without mj? I cant recall?




Im talking about the scottie pippen bulls here.
pippen is the worst 2nd option ever because he made MJ do the most ever (#1 in PER, BPM, WS/48)...

And his defense was only worth the #7 team defense - drexler was worth more than that despite less defensive help

[red1]

pippen is the worst 2nd option ever because he made MJ do the most ever (#1 in PER, BPM, WS/48)...

And his defense was only worth the #7 team defense - drexler was worth more than that despite less defensive help
LOL. just lol.




1-9, no pip no chip suck my nuts bitch. :oldlol:

[LAmbruh]

LOL. just lol.




1-9, no pip no chip suck my nuts bitch. :oldlol:
:roll:

[3ball]

LOL. just lol.




1-9, no pip no chip suck my nuts bitch. :oldlol:
lol are your childish takes

enjoy the facts I laid out

only mj won with his sidekick routinely getting 15 on 35%

and pip < Wade, AD ... and Kyrie was better too, or at least played better..

[SouBeachTalents]

lol are your childish takes

enjoy the facts I laid out

only mj won with his sidekick routinely getting 15 on 35%

and pip < Wade, AD ... and Kyrie was better too, or at least played better..
1991: 22 on 50%
1992: 20 on 47%
1993: 20 on 47%
1996: 17 on 39%
1997: 19 on 42%
1998: 17 on 42%

So if by "routinely", you mean never, I would agree. And as it's been pointed out to you on numerous occasions, that makes no inclusion of his most valuable contributions like his defense and playmaking

[3ball]

1991: 22 on 50%
1992: 20 on 47%
1993: 20 on 47%
1996: 17 on 39%
1997: 19 on 42%
1998: 17 on 42%

So if by "routinely", you mean never, I would agree.





I listed 14 series below that are around 15 on 35% with many of them worse.. MJ basically won all these series - how many series or Finals did Lebron win with his sidekick playing like the series below?:



1988 RD 1 vs. CLE......10.6 on 47.1%
1988 ECSF vs. DET...... 9.4 on 45.8%

1989 RD 1 vs. CLE......15.0 on 39.8%
1989 ECF vs. DET........ 9.7 on 40.2%


1990 ECF vs DET........16.6 on 42.8%

1992 ECSF vs NYN.....16.0 on 40.2%

1993 RD 1 vs. ATL..... 15.0 on 42.2%

1995 ECSF vs ORL.....19.0 on 40.9%

1996 ECSF vs NYN.... 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA... 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS.....16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF vs. MIA..... 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECF vs IND....... 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA... 15.7 on 41.0%

1999 RD 1 vs LAL...... 18.3 on 32.9%


09' Lebron lost to the #4 SRS team despite having the #3 defense and getting 18 on 38% from Mo - as you can see above, MJ always won with that level of help on both sides of the ball, including beating the #1 SRS in 1989 with only the #11 defense and 15 on 40% from Pip

No all-time great consistently played that badly - only MJ had to win with that crap





1996: 17 on 39%
1997: 19 on 42%
1998: 17 on 42%



^^^ MJ had goat offenses and won his 2nd three-peat despite his sidekick averaging 17.6 on 40.8% and playing 4 on 5 with rodman..

Thus shows that MJ played near-perfectly to accomplish the goat teamwork required, while still getting goat stats... Otoh, Lebron must sacrifice teamwork/winning to achieve great stats because his skillset is suboptimal/inferior (ball-domination, which kills ball movement).






And as it's been pointed out to you on numerous occasions, that makes no inclusion of his most valuable contributions like his defense and playmaking



When we're evaluating MJ's "help", the team defensive ranking shows how much total defensive help he had and that matters more than what he got from any one player..

and the Bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat - so MJ's overall defensive help was inferior, including a worse defense than every conference finals and Finals opponent (except the Suns' #9 defense)

And how can Pippen help with playmaking when MJ matched him in assists and exceeded him in the playoffs?

So MJ had shit offensive help due to Pippen, and non-elite defensive help... hope that helps.. let me know if you're confused or have any questions...:rolleyes:

Ultimately, MJ had the greatest scoring gap ever from his 2nd option, while matching him in assists and having a non-elite defensive ranking - that's the biggest carry-job ever.

[LAmbruh]

No pip

[LAmbruh]

No chip

[Turbo Slayer]

Pippen.

[red1]

:roll:

LAmbruh - you're a great poster dude I really appreciate you. :cheers:


unlike 3ball who makes MJ stans look bad - they're probably looking at this guy saying he doesnt rep shit he's just an embarrassing virgin :roll:

[Manny98]

The lengths 3ball goes to try and discredit Pippen :lol

[G0ATbe]

Scottie carried the Bulls farther than MJ ever could. How is this even a question?:kobe:

[3ball]

The lengths 3ball goes to try and discredit Pippen :lol
Be honest - if Lebron had a sidekick that routinely got around 15 on 35% like the 14 series that I posted of Pippen earlier, you would be saying he had no cast

Love and Bosh were far better offensive players than Pip, yet you think they're trash, so you would think the same of a worse offensive player like Pippen

When did Lebron ever win with a guy that scored like Pippen?.. didn't Lebron always need an equal-scorong teammate to win?... So how could pip possibly be enough???.. waiting your response..

[SouBeachTalents]

Be honest - if Lebron had a sidekick that routinely got around 15 on 35% like the 14 series that I posted of Pippen earlier, you would be saying he had no cast

Love and Bosh were far better offensive players than Pip, yet you think they're trash, so you would think the same of a worse offensive player like Pippen

When did Lebron ever win with a guy that scored like Pippen?.. didn't Lebron always need an equal-scorong teammate to win?... So how could pip possibly be enough???.. waiting your response..
Wade scored less in the 2013 playoffs than Pippen did in ANY of the Bulls title runs :lol

[Manny98]

Be honest - if Lebron had a sidekick that routinely got around 15 on 35% like the 14 series that I posted of Pippen earlier, you would be saying he had no cast

Love and Bosh were far better offensive players than Pip, yet you think they're trash, so you would think the same of a worse offensive player like Pippen

When did Lebron ever win with a guy that scored like Pippen?.. didn't Lebron always need an equal-scorong teammate to win?... So how could pip possibly be enough???.. waiting your response..
Wade in 2013 playoffs - 15.9 ppg

Pippens lowest scoring playoff run - 16.8ppg

13 Wade is easily worse than prime Pippen and when did LeBron ever get the luxury of playing with a elite perimeter defender by his side like MJ did with Pippen and Rodman and Harper at the same time

[Whoah10115]

Kawhi is definitely not near Scottie Pippen defensively, at all.

[3ball]

Wade scored less in the 2013 playoffs than Pippen did in ANY of the Bulls title runs :lol
Points Per 100 Possessions:

Wade 2013..... 24.5
Pippen 1996... 22.7


So no, Wade didn't score less then Pippen ever did and you should've known that's basically impossible before you posted that.

Pippen's resume of inept offense is far more vast than Wade's - not just ppg but shooting as well.

wade actually shot 45.7% in 2013, whereas the Pippen list only included only low efficiency series

Pippen won rings for 3 straight years while shooting 41.5, 39.0 and 41.5% from 96-98' - Wade isn't capable of such a sustained run of horrific offense - he righted the ship just in time for the 13' Finals, where he averaged 20/5/5 on 48%..

Ultimately, people complain about 13/14 Wade because he only put up prime Pippen numbers (21-22 PER, 21/5/5 stats).

[3ball]

.
Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs


13-14' Wade..... 26.4 pts.. 6.8 ast.. 52.8 ts.. 2.5 stl.. 1.0 blk.. 18.6 PER
96-98' Pippen... 24.7 pts.. 7.0 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 2.9 stl.. 1.3 blk.. 19.0 PER
91-93' Pippen... 26.7 pts.. 8.0 ast.. 53.6 ts.. 2.8 stl.. 1.3 blk.. 19.6 PER


The worst of Wade was comparable to prime Pippen.. that's why people complain about 13-14' Wade - he'd been reduced to prime Pippen..

And the worst of Wade was superior to Pippen's worst championship runs of 1993 when Pip had 16.9 PER and 0.083 ws/48 - worse than Wade ever was)

[FireDavidKahn]

.
Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs


13-14' Wade..... 26.4 pts.. 6.8 ast.. 52.8 ts.. 2.5 stl.. 1.0 blk.. 18.6 PER
96-98' Pippen... 24.7 pts.. 7.0 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 2.9 stl.. 1.3 blk.. 19.0 PER
91-93' Pippen... 26.7 pts.. 8.0 ast.. 53.6 ts.. 2.8 stl.. 1.3 blk.. 19.6 PER


The worst of Wade was comparable to prime Pippen.. that's why people complain about 13-14' Wade - he'd been reduced to prime Pippen..

And the worst of Wade was superior to Pippen's worst championship runs of 1993 when Pip had 16.9 PER and 0.083 ws/48 - worse than Wade ever was)

Now do defense.

[TheCorporation]

.
Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs


13-14' Wade..... 26.4 pts.. 6.8 ast.. 52.8 ts.. 2.5 stl.. 1.0 blk.. 18.6 PER
96-98' Pippen... 24.7 pts.. 7.0 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 2.9 stl.. 1.3 blk.. 19.0 PER
91-93' Pippen... 26.7 pts.. 8.0 ast.. 53.6 ts.. 2.8 stl.. 1.3 blk.. 19.6 PER


The worst of Wade was comparable to prime Pippen.. that's why people complain about 13-14' Wade - he'd been reduced to prime Pippen..

And the worst of Wade was superior to Pippen's worst championship runs of 1993 when Pip had 16.9 PER and 0.083 ws/48 - worse than Wade ever was)

Per 100 for every stat? :lol What a joke

How about this for Scottie:

21 points
9 rebounds
7 assists
2 steals
1 block
46%

Jesus

21-9-7-2-1 on 46% for three straight Finals?...With elite defense? (lower DRtg than DPOY Jordan each series)

Kawhi on steroids...As a #2 option. Jesus