MJ has the most rings as the best player in modern era/3-pointer basketball, so

[3ball]

so he owns modern era winning

and stats (#1 in PPG, efficiency rating, BPM, WS/48)

and accolades (10 scoring titles and 9 two-way seasons, aka 1st team on both sides of ball, 5 MVP's in 11 full seasons)

and team ceiling/brand of ball (6/6 in Finals, 72 wins)

and #1 clutch reputation

and goat mid-range shooting, goat post game, and goat defense at position

and intangibles (assassin mentality, teammate maximization/growth alongside him, aka leadership)



so is longevity/career totals all lebron has???

[Axe]

A great philosopher gives an objection...


Compared to the 15-18 Warriors

Spurs with Kawhi, Duncan, Manu, Parker

OKC with KD, Russ and Harden

You think MJ is going 6/6 facing those teams every year in the finals?

[3ball]

A great philosopher objectifies...
how many wins for a team if everyone on the team is a worse scorer than Horace Grant?.. 1 win?.. probably zero ..

whereas Love won 40 games as #1 option and Bosh led a playoff team and almost won 50

So give MJ a 3rd scorer like Lebron had and yes, he beats those teams easily.. ultimately, it makes no sense to compare 2-star vs 2-star format of the 90's to the recent 3-star vs 3-star format - give MJ a 3rd star like Lebron had, and he crushes any team in history.

You simply forget that Lebron had HIS OWN super-teams and the most talent from 11-14', and his 15' cast was initially the favorite before Kyrie's injury and subsequent underperformance in the regular season.

So quit crying about comp - it's the rest of the league that should be complaining about Lebron's "not 6, not 7" super-teams - Bosh/love would've been the best 2nd options in the the conference, let alone 3rd

[Vino24]

Record vs Bird and Thomas?

[Axe]

how many wins for a team if everyone on the team is a worse scorer than Horace Grant?.. 1 win?.. probably zero ..

whereas Love won 40 games as #1 option and Bosh led a playoff team and almost won 50

So give MJ a 3rd scorer like Lebron had and yes, he beats those teams easily.. You simply forget that Lebron had HIS OWN super-teams and the most talent from 11-14', and his 15' cast was initially the favorite before Kyrie's injury and subsequent underperformance in the regular season.

So quit crying about comp - it's the rest of the league that should be complaining about Lebron's "not 6, not 7" super-teams - Bosh/love would've been the best 2nd options in the the conference, let alone 3rd
Uhm, that post i quoted earlier isn't actually mine. I just got it from somebody in another thread. He says that jordan only won his rings because all the teams he defeated in the finals are simply mediocre. 😹

[3ball]

Uhm, that post i quoted earlier isn't actually mine. I just got it from somebody in another thread. He says that jordan only won his rings because all the teams he defeated in the finals are simply mediocre. ��
ultimately, it makes no sense to compare 2-star vs 2-star format of the 90's to the recent 3-star vs 3-star format - give MJ a 3rd star like Lebron had, and he crushes any team in history.

[TheCorporation]

6911

Nuff said bb boi

[FireDavidKahn]

You lose again, baby boi.

[TheCorporation]

Each of LBJ's Finals opponents had a better net efficiency than the best team MJ ever faced.

Bye

https://i.postimg.cc/zXwZ7CVs/FB-IMG-1535580204324.jpg

PS: How are you not banned

[Axe]

ultimately, it makes no sense to compare 2-star vs 2-star format of the 90's to the recent 3-star vs 3-star format - give MJ a 3rd star like Lebron had, and he crushes any team in history.
I agree with you. Lbj had them in his first year at miami yet still lost to dirk nowitzki and the mavericks, despite having a homecourt advantage due to their better record in that season.

[Smoke117]

Each of LBJ's Finals opponents had a better net efficiency than the best team MJ ever faced.

Bye

https://i.postimg.cc/zXwZ7CVs/FB-IMG-1535580204324.jpg

PS: How are you not banned

/thread

[Vino24]

Op has Wilt at #2 all time. Russell beat the shit out of him literally 10 times in the playoffs. Who did MJ beat that was as good as Wilt?

[3ball]

Each of LBJ's Finals opponents had a better net efficiency than the best team MJ ever faced.

Bye

https://i.postimg.cc/zXwZ7CVs/FB-IMG-1535580204324.jpg

PS: How are you not banned
that graphic shows that the Western Conference had no parity or good comp (cakewalks for Spurs/Warriors/Mavs), while MJ's Finals opponents faced far greater parity/comp and were more battle-tested upon reaching the Finals

For example, if the Warriors/Spurs/Mavs had to face Hakeem, Duncan and Shaq to make the Finals like the 98' Jazz, they wouldn't be on that list

Also, Lebron's teams aren't on that list, which proves his skillset results in weaker teams, aka non-juggernauts that don't dominate.. ball-dominance results in weaker teams than ball movement

[3ball]

Each of LBJ's Finals opponents had a better net efficiency than the best team MJ ever faced.

Bye

https://i.postimg.cc/zXwZ7CVs/FB-IMG-1535580204324.jpg

PS: How are you not banned
The NBA was extremely top heavy from 2011-2019, with everyone knowing the 2 Finals participants well in advance

So that graphic shows the Western Conference had no parity or good comp (cakewalks for Spurs/Warriors/Mavs), while MJ's Finals opponents faced far greater parity/comp and were more battle-tested upon reaching the Finals

For example, if the Warriors/Spurs/Mavs had to face Hakeem, Duncan and Shaq to make the Finals like the 98' Jazz, they wouldn't be on that list

Also, Lebron's teams aren't on that list, which proves his skillset results in weaker teams, aka non-juggernauts that don't dominate.. ball-dominance results in weaker teams than ball movement

[TheCorporation]

Op has Wilt at #2 all time. Russell beat the shit out of him literally 10 times in the playoffs. Who did MJ beat that was as good as Wilt?

3x 1st round sweeps before Pippen

Yikes

[3ball]

3x 1st round sweeps before Pippen

Yikes
1st round exits are standard for guys that carry lottery teams to low seeds and long odds in the 1st Round, which Lebron never did - he misses the playoffs with lottery teams 3 times and only made the playoffs with high seeds/good teams/decorated casts (and therefore easy 1st Round matchups).

But Lebron's suboptimal style doesn't need a lottery team to get stomped by a champion - his high seeded, "super"-teams got stomped by record amount in 2014, and nearly again in 2017.

[Axe]

How come folks keep on remembering about mj not being able to advance the first round without pippen while they often overlook lbj not being able to qualify in the playoffs during the his first two years (2004, 2005) playing in the league? And also, mj and the bulls were swept in the 1985 playoffs, even if they had one win against the milwaukee bucks during that time? Like seriously? 😹

[3ball]

I agree with you. Lbj had them in his first year at miami yet still lost to dirk nowitzki and the mavericks, despite having a homecourt advantage due to their better record in that season.
he also got beat by record amount in 2014 too

Teams don't randomly get hot for 3 straight games.. Lebron's ball-dominance simply doesn't shift defenses/wear down team like the ball-movement it faces at the championship level, so opponents are fresher with more capacity to go off - a player,/team that doesn't have to work as hard defensively, will have more capacity to go offensively.. Ultimately, Lebron-ball doesn't win the battle of attrition at the championship level.

Furthermore, Lebron's rigid style couldn't fit with Wade and Bosh.

Despite being a sophisticated big that once led his own playoff team, Bosh had been reduced to spot-up shooter in Lebron-ball and was robbed of any capacity to step up in a big way.. He otherwise could've helped given Wade was having a Finals that would rank in the bottom fifth of PIppen's playoff series or Finals (otherwise, 13-14' wade had only been reduced to getting 21/5/5 all year including the ECF, aka peak Pippen stats)..

But wade was also hampered by Lebron-ball - as detailed in SB Nation's famous article, bron's poor fit with wade was exposed as the Spurs came off Wade to help on Lebron and vice versa, thus forcing them to pass to each other for spot-ups (their weakness).

[Axe]

he also got beat by record amount in 2014 too

Teams don't randomly get hot for 3 straight games.. Lebron's ball-dominance simply doesn't shift defenses/wear down team like the ball-movement it faces at the championship level, so opponents are fresher with more capacity to go off - a player,/team that doesn't have to work as hard defensively, will have more capacity to go offensively.. Ultimately, Lebron-ball doesn't win the battle of attrition at the championship level.

Furthermore, Lebron's rigid style couldn't fit with Wade and Bosh.

Despite being a sophisticated big that once led his own playoff team, Bosh had been reduced to spot-up shooter in Lebron-ball and was robbed of any capacity to step up in a big way.. He otherwise could've helped given Wade was having a Finals that would rank in the bottom fifth of PIppen's playoff series or Finals (otherwise, 13-14' wade had only been reduced to getting 21/5/5 all year including the ECF, aka peak Pippen stats)..

But wade was also hampered by Lebron-ball - as detailed in SB Nation's famous article, his poor fit with wade was exposed as the Spurs came off Wade to help on Lebron and vice versa, thus forcing them to pass to each other for spot-ups (their weakness).
Rofl tldr but yes, he had the greatest opportunity to dominate during those times though somehow, he still had losses.

Meanwhile, it's also worth remembering mj's flu game during the 1997 finals and in the 1998 finals where scottie got temporarily sidelined during game 6. Therefore, jordan had to carry the load while they were trailing earlier in that contest, still triumphant in the end.

Also, the bulls during that finals series only had a two-day rest, coming off from a grueling series against reggie miller and his pacers while the utah jazz had a ten-day rest after they uneventfully swept shaq and kobe's lakers during that time. So I'm guessing the difference in fatigue is apparent here.

[Uncle Drew]

1-9

[3ball]

1-9
1-9 means that MJ was probably carrying casts that were lottery the prior year to low seeds, and therefore faced the biggest odds, aka 8 vs 1 seed

oh look, that's exactly what happened.

otoh, lebron has always failed to carry lottery casts to low playoff seeds, so he missed 1st Round matchups with the champion Pistons in 05', or the goat Warriors in 19' - instead, he only made the playoffs with high seeds/good teams and therefore easy 1st round matchups (aka Arenas' Wizards)

Indeed, lebron missed the playoffs with the East all-star center in 05', and needed to add a COY, top team defense, and 22/5/5 all-defender sidekick to make it in 06'.. Overall, Lebron's 05-10' rosters are littered with all-stars (jamison, mo, zydrunas), all-defenders (hughes, varejao), top defenses (07', 09') and decorated coaches (coy brown), while 85-89' MJ had none of this - an accolade-less cast, aka worse cast than lebron ever had

[Uncle Drew]

1-9 means that MJ was probably carrying casts that were lottery the prior year to low seeds, and therefore faced the biggest odds, aka 8 vs 1 seed

oh look, that's exactly what happened.

otoh, lebron has always failed to carry lottery casts to low playoff seeds, so he missed 1st Round matchups with the champion Pistons in 05', or the goat Warriors in 19' - instead, he only made the playoffs with high seeds/good teams and therefore easy 1st round matchups (aka Arenas' Wizards)

Indeed, lebron missed the playoffs with the East all-star center in 05', and needed to add a COY, top team defense, and 22/5/5 all-defender sidekick to make it in 06'.. Overall, Lebron's 05-10' rosters are littered with all-stars (jamison, mo, zydrunas), all-defenders (hughes, varejao), top defenses (07', 09') and decorated coaches (coy brown), while 85-89' MJ had none of this - an accolade-less cast, aka worse cast than lebron ever had

1-9

[Axe]

Oooof... Sounded like a freaking broken vinyl record.

[sdot_thadon]

How come folks keep on remembering about mj not being able to advance the first round without pippen while they often overlook lbj not being able to qualify in the playoffs during the his first two years (2004, 2005) playing in the league? And also, mj and the bulls were swept in the 1985 playoffs, even if they had one win against the milwaukee bucks during that time? Like seriously? 😹

I don't think anyone can forget per se, the records are in the books. It's probably something to do with Mj making the playoffs his 1st 2 seasons with 38 and 30 wins respectively, meanwhile Lebron missed the postseason with 35 and 42(over .500) win seasons. They basically both would have made and missed one playoffs over the 1st 2 seasons in each other's place. 3rd season Mj would have been the bubble team in Lebrons east in 06.....

[Axe]

I don't think anyone can forget per se, the records are in the books. It's probably something to do with Mj making the playoffs his 1st 2 seasons with 38 and 30 wins respectively, meanwhile Lebron missed the postseason with 35 and 42(over .500) win seasons. They basically both would have made and missed one playoffs over the 1st 2 seasons in each other's place. 3rd season Mj would have been the bubble team in Lebrons east in 06.....
Fair enough. But i guess having a talented coach also did helped mj and the bulls a lot.

[Phoenix]

That 30 Bulls team in 86 would have been a higher seed if MJ hadn't missed 64 games. The 6th and 7th seed won 39 games. Surely a healthy 2nd year MJ playing most of the season gets them above that total and avoid Boston. Granted as the potential 6th seed they would have faced the Sixers and end up losing anyway.

[red1]

Im not even kidding 2ball you've actuallly weakened MJ's case. he's now bordering on top-3 at beating unathletic white guys.

[superduper]

3ball is Simon

[sdot_thadon]

That 30 Bulls team in 86 would have been a higher seed if MJ hadn't missed 64 games. The 6th and 7th seed won 39 games. Surely a healthy 2nd year MJ playing most of the season gets them above that total and avoid Boston. Granted as the potential 6th seed they would have faced the Sixers and end up losing anyway.

I'm not disagreeing with any of what you said here. That wasn't my point though, just that Mj did make the playoffs with 30 wins.

[FireDavidKahn]

1st round exits are standard for guys that carry lottery teams to low seeds and long odds in the 1st Round, which Lebron never did - he misses the playoffs with lottery teams 3 times and only made the playoffs with high seeds/good teams/decorated casts (and therefore easy 1st Round matchups).

But Lebron's suboptimal style doesn't need a lottery team to get stomped by a champion - his high seeded, "super"-teams got stomped by record amount in 2014, and nearly again in 2017.

Without LeBron the Cavs were the second worst team in the league and got the 1st overall pick.:roll:

You lose again, baby boi.

[3ball]

I don't think anyone can forget per se, the records are in the books. It's probably something to do with Mj making the playoffs his 1st 2 seasons with 38 and 30 wins respectively, meanwhile Lebron missed the postseason with 35 and 42(over .500) win seasons. They basically both would have made and missed one playoffs over the 1st 2 seasons in each other's place. 3rd season Mj would have been the bubble team in Lebrons east in 06.....
I agree that it doesn't make sense to quibble about who made the playoffs as a rookie and who didn't

both were 8 or 9 seeds in their first few seasons and the rest is splitting hairs

But the reality is that Lebron never made the playoffs with those low seeds and therefore never faced the impossible 1st Round matchups where he would've gotten smashed, like his 8 seed facing the champion Pistons or Warriors in 05' or 19'.. Otoh, MJ happened to make the playoffs with low seeds so he faced those impossible 8 vs 1 matchups vs goat teams

[Phoenix]

I'm not disagreeing with any of what you said here. That wasn't my point though, just that Mj did make the playoffs with 30 wins.

My comment both was and wasn't a direct response to your post lol. I just saw the 30 win thing because it's popped up a few times on the forum and yes, it is a very low total for a playoff team. Mainly I was thinking aloud that MJ playing most of the year pushes them past 40+ wins. I doubt they take a game off Philly either, the talent gap between the Bulls and any of the upper echelon east teams in the mid 80's was massive. MJ would have been singularly spectacular but that wasn't beating Boston and Philly.

[3ball]

if lebron had made the playoffs in 04', 05' or 19' as the 8 seed, which of those years does his 8 seed win a game off the champion Pistons or the goat Warriors?

Waiting...

[3ball]

if lebron had made the playoffs in 04', 05' or 19' as the 8 seed, which of those years does his 8 seed win a game off the champion Pistons or the goat Warriors?

Waiting...
anyone?

[sdot_thadon]

My comment both was and wasn't a direct response to your post lol. I just saw the 30 win thing because it's popped up a few times on the forum and yes, it is a very low total for a playoff team. Mainly I was thinking aloud that MJ playing most of the year pushes them past 40+ wins. I doubt they take a game off Philly either, the talent gap between the Bulls and any of the upper echelon east teams in the mid 80's was massive. MJ would have been singularly spectacular but that wasn't beating Boston and Philly.

Completely agree with that.:applause:

[Axe]

That 30 Bulls team in 86 would have been a higher seed if MJ hadn't missed 64 games. The 6th and 7th seed won 39 games. Surely a healthy 2nd year MJ playing most of the season gets them above that total and avoid Boston. Granted as the potential 6th seed they would have faced the Sixers and end up losing anyway.
"tHeY wIlL sTiLl LoSe BeCaUsE tHeY dIdN't HaVe PiPpEn YeT"

[3ball]

if lebron had made the playoffs in 04', 05' or 19' as the 8 seed, which of those years does his 8 seed beat the champion Pistons or the goat Warriors?

wouldn't he be 1-9 or some shit as well if he'd made the playoffs as a low seed and faced those impossible 8 vs 1 matchups against goat teams?
Waiting...
no one