Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat - 14' Wade vs 93' Pippen

[3ball]

Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


So why the excuses for Lebron?

[SouBeachTalents]

Let's do your favorite comparison

Per 100 Possessions- Playoffs

'89 Jordan: 43.4 pts, 9.5 ast, 60 ts, 120 ortg, 29.9 PER, .270 ws/48, 9.1 obpm
'09 LeBron: 47.5 pts, 9.8 ast, 62 ts, 128 ortg, 37.4 PER, .399 ws/48, 12.8 obpm

[ImKobe]

Let's do your favorite comparison

Per 100 Possessions- Playoffs

'89 Jordan: 43.4 pts, 9.5 ast, 60 ts, 120 ortg, 29.9 PER, .270 ws/48, 9.1 obpm
'09 LeBron: 47.5 pts, 9.8 ast, 62 ts, 128 ortg, 37.4 PER, .399 ws/48, 12.8 obpm


Competition

Lebron - 39-43 Pistons (16th DRTG), 47-35 Hawks (12th DRTG) & 59-23 Magic (1st DRTG)
Jordan - 57-25 Cavaliers (2nd DRTG), 52-30 Knicks (10th DRTG) & 63-19 Pistons (3rd DRTG)

Lebron Game 6 ECF - 25/7/7 40%FG
Jordan Game 6 ECF - 32/4/13 50%FG

Both got eliminated in Game 6 ECF.

Bulls' 2nd best player only played 1 whole minute in Game 6 and it was still closer than the Cavs-Magic one, despite Jordan being the underdog against one of the greatest teams in league history vs. Lebron being the one with the #1 seed against a team missing it's 2nd best player.

Jordan's run was more impressive because he wasn't the #1 seed and favored to make the Finals, he already played a really tough team in the first round and had one of the greatest elimination games in league history. Lebron beat zero 50+ win teams in his run and only faced one good defensive team(who was missing it's star point guard btw), who played him in single coverage to neutralize Lebron Ball while the Pistons focused their entire defense around stopping Jordan and fouling him hard on every drive. The Pistons that year swept every other series while the Magic went 6 games with Philly, 7 with Boston w/o KG and obviously they lost in 5 games in the Finals.

Lebron's run was disappointing (nothing impressive about beating 39 & 47-win teams as the #1 seed), Jordan's run was great because he actually beat two really good teams and took 2 games from a team he had no chance of beating, given that his 2nd best player went out in the first minute of the elimination game.

[Axe]

And not to mention the cleveland cavaliers had the whole homecourt advantage throughout the 2009 playoffs due to the team having the most wins at 66 during that time, also the most wins that involved lebron james in the roster aside from the 2012-13 miami heat.

Had lebron only won that ecf series against a then-defensive stalwart dwight howard and his orlando magic team, he would have faced kobe bryant and his lakers for the first time in the finals then. Except that didn't happen at all and it was frustrating.

[Hey Yo]

89 Bulls won game 1 at Detroit. They gave themselves HCA right as the buzzer sounded. Then after game 3, Bulls were up 2-1 in the series.

Detroit won game 4 to tie series at 2. Then game 5, the biggest postseason game in MJ's lifetime (up to that point), he proceeds to shit to bed by only taking 8FGA for the entire game. Announcers were wondering what was wrong? Why wasn't he shooting?

Bulls defense kept them in that game and was winnable, but MJ froze up in the bright spotlight and let his team down.

[Axe]

From what I've read before, those pistons teams before played really rough and bad. If they played in today's era, they'd be only feeding themselves with flagrant foul troubles.

[warriorfan]

89 Bulls won game 1 at Detroit. They gave themselves HCA right as the buzzer sounded. Then after game 3, Bulls were up 2-1 in the series.

Detroit won game 4 to tie series at 2. Then game 5, the biggest postseason game in MJ's lifetime (up to that point), he proceeds to shit to bed by only taking 8FGA for the entire game. Announcers were wondering what was wrong? Why wasn't he shooting?

Bulls defense kept them in that game and was winnable, but MJ froze up in the bright spotlight and let his team down.

Imagine if he did that over an entire Finals series and got outscored by Jason Terry.

That is what LeBron did.

[Uncle Drew]

No Pip, no chip.

[Hey Yo]

Imagine if he did that over an entire Finals series and got outscored by Jason Terry.

That is what LeBron did.
Except for the fact that James didn't do that for an entire Final series.


Imagine being league MVP and then proceed to getting less votes for FMVP than a guy on the losing team.

Then imagine the following year, you're league MVP again and then become the first team leader in NBA history to blow a 3-1 Finals series lead.

[warriorfan]

Except for the fact that James didn't do that for an entire Final series.


Imagine being league MVP and then proceed to getting less votes for FMVP than a guy on the losing team.

Then imagine the following year, you're league MVP again and then become the first team leader in NBA history to blow a 3-1 Finals series lead.

2011.That series immediately eliminated LeBron from any contention of being the GOAT. Sorry. You just have to deal with it.

[Hey Yo]

2011.That series immediately eliminated LeBron from any contention of being the GOAT. Sorry. You just have to deal with it.
I would agree..... if he was acting as first option in that Finals. By Wade calling James in that offseason and handing him the keys to the team, pretty much confirms that.

[SouBeachTalents]

I would agree..... if he was acting as first option in that Finals. By Wade calling James in that offseason and handing him the keys to the team, pretty much confirms that.
But that's the entire point, they lost because, after playing like a 1A option for literally the entire season, he suddenly put up second option production in the most important series of the season. That's precisely why he gets blamed for the Heat losing. You actually want to argue Wade should get criticized when he matched his regular season production, while LeBron's fell off a cliff? That shit is illogical and makes absolutely no sense :lol

[Phoenix]

I would agree..... if he was acting as first option in that Finals. By Wade calling James in that offseason and handing him the keys to the team, pretty much confirms that.

Which option was he for the first 3 rounds of the playoffs? He was the leading PPG scorer for the first round and conference finals, and against the Celtics he averaged 28ppg to Wade's 30. You're jumping through hoops to explain his 18ppg finals average and doing things like putting up 8 points in game 4. It's disingenuous when we know that Lebron, even as a '2nd option' as you call it, is far more capable than 18ppg in a finals setting and we damn well know the Heat strategy wasn't for him to score 8 points in game 4.

[highwhey]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/KeyGrossCondor-size_restricted.gif

[ShawkFactory]

Well since both teams made the finals we can call the Eastern playoffs a wash.

Why don't we compare those guys respective numbers in the finals :lol

Little preview...Wade's Ortg was 89 and Drtg was 120. Hard to blame him though, he was clearly playing at like 60%..

And also, per 100 possession comparisons don't work at all. Maybe when comparing two guys in the regular season when 1 has to do everything on a mediocre team and one can sit out 4th quarters because his team is stacked. But the more effective sidekick in the NBA finals is going to be one who can contribute more productive minutes.

[FireDavidKahn]

No pip no chip.

[brownmamba00]

Wait I thought Wade was washed up by 2014?::violin:

[superduper]

Wait I thought Wade was washed up by 2014?::violin:

They're straight up trying to dodge the facts 3ball is presenting them with their cringe ass one liner memes :oldlol:

[FireDavidKahn]

They're straight up trying to dodge the facts 3ball is presenting them with their cringe ass one liner memes :oldlol:

MJ literally said "I need help"

That's a verifiable fact.

[warriorfan]

Jason Terry? No chip.

[Smoke117]

Jason Terry? No chip.

If Curryfan says it's true I belive it...I mean he is the biggest fan of a sidekick ever...Stephen Curry to Kevin Durant. He knows more about this sidekick talk than anyone.

[Axe]

No wade, no chip.
No kyrie, no chip.

[3ball]

Let's do your favorite comparison

Per 100 Possessions- Playoffs

'89 Jordan: 43.4 pts, 9.5 ast, 60 ts, 120 ortg, 29.9 PER, .270 ws/48, 9.1 obpm
'09 LeBron: 47.5 pts, 9.8 ast, 62 ts, 128 ortg, 37.4 PER, .399 ws/48, 12.8 obpm


09' Mo Will RS... 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS'... 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF...... 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #3 team defense.. lost to #4 SRS (2 all-stars)
89' Pippen 1st Rd... 15/9/4.. 51.0 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #11 team defense.. beat #1 SRS (3 all-stars*)

* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper


Looks like Lebron had the far better cast but lost to a worse team than MJ defeated in 89'.. :confusedshrug:

So Lebron's 09' loss as the favorite was clearly a black mark and MJ would've won against the weaker opponent and with the greater help on BOTH ends of the floor (cavs had the better defense than 89' bulls)


Playoffs

Kyrie 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_per_game)...... 23.9 ppg.. 57.3 ts.. 41% threes.. 89% ft.. 23.0 PER.. 0.181 ws/48.. 3.6 obpm
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_per_game)... 19.8 ppg.. 52.4 ts.. 28% threes.. 72% ft.. 19.7 PER.. 0.157 ws/48.. 3.1 obpm

Kyrie 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_advanced)...... outplayed league mvp.. hit Finals-winning shot
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_advanced)... outplayed by schrempf.. no winning shots

[FireDavidKahn]

No wade, no chip.
No kyrie, no chip.

LeBron has won chips without either of them...

[Axe]

LeBron has won chips without either of them...
You mean when he was in miami between 2010-14, he had no kyrie back then? And then when he came back in cleveland between 2014-18, apart from wade being acquired in cleveland via trade and for a short time, he did not have him in the finals anymore? Yup, pretty much that sums up the point, except that he still had them in two different occasions from 2010-17 the moment he started his finals run.

[TheCorporation]

Let's do your favorite comparison

Per 100 Possessions- Playoffs

'89 Jordan: 43.4 pts, 9.5 ast, 60 ts, 120 ortg, 29.9 PER, .270 ws/48, 9.1 obpm
'09 LeBron: 47.5 pts, 9.8 ast, 62 ts, 128 ortg, 37.4 PER, .399 ws/48, 12.8 obpm

Close it up

[3ball]

Close it up
How did Lebron's #3 defense lose to Dwight despite getting 18 on 39% from Mo, when MJ is like 10-0 in those spots?

[FireDavidKahn]

How did Lebron's #3 defense lose to Dwight despite getting 18 on 39% from Mo, when MJ is like 10-0 in those spots?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ClutteredWastefulCuscus-poster.jpg

[3ball]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ClutteredWastefulCuscus-poster.jpg
No, you did by reading the facts, something I know you normally avoid at all costs

All costs in a days work

[WolfGang]

Things like chemistry never make it into these argument. Wade was great but couldn't really mesh with Lebron. If lebron teamed up with Paul pierce or chris Paul. Someone that could shoot the ball and knock down shots he may have won more.

Neither wade or lebron could shoot at the time if any of you remember. Shit. Wade never improved his shooting.

[Uncle Drew]

No Pip?

[Smoke117]

Let's do your favorite comparison

Per 100 Possessions- Playoffs

'89 Jordan: 43.4 pts, 9.5 ast, 60 ts, 120 ortg, 29.9 PER, .270 ws/48, 9.1 obpm
'09 LeBron: 47.5 pts, 9.8 ast, 62 ts, 128 ortg, 37.4 PER, .399 ws/48, 12.8 obpm

https://media.giphy.com/media/14ceV8wMLIGO6Q/giphy.gif

[Smoke117]

Competition

Lebron - 39-43 Pistons (16th DRTG), 47-35 Hawks (12th DRTG) & 59-23 Magic (1st DRTG)
Jordan - 57-25 Cavaliers (2nd DRTG), 52-30 Knicks (10th DRTG) & 63-19 Pistons (3rd DRTG)

Lebron Game 6 ECF - 25/7/7 40%FG
Jordan Game 6 ECF - 32/4/13 50%FG

Both got eliminated in Game 6 ECF.

Bulls' 2nd best player only played 1 whole minute in Game 6 and it was still closer than the Cavs-Magic one, despite Jordan being the underdog against one of the greatest teams in league history vs. Lebron being the one with the #1 seed against a team missing it's 2nd best player.

Jordan's run was more impressive because he wasn't the #1 seed and favored to make the Finals, he already played a really tough team in the first round and had one of the greatest elimination games in league history. Lebron beat zero 50+ win teams in his run and only faced one good defensive team(who was missing it's star point guard btw), who played him in single coverage to neutralize Lebron Ball while the Pistons focused their entire defense around stopping Jordan and fouling him hard on every drive. The Pistons that year swept every other series while the Magic went 6 games with Philly, 7 with Boston w/o KG and obviously they lost in 5 games in the Finals.

Lebron's run was disappointing (nothing impressive about beating 39 & 47-win teams as the #1 seed), Jordan's run was great because he actually beat two really good teams and took 2 games from a team he had no chance of beating, given that his 2nd best player went out in the first minute of the elimination game.

And here's Imkobrick with another obsessive gem. You have to be the most obsessive pathetic fakkot on this board this side of 3ball. Are you even a real Laker fan? You seem to want "your team" to fail now that Bran is on the team. It baffles me that grown ass men can get be so ****ing stupid and pathetic the way you stans and haters are. IT'S JUST ****ING BASKETBALL YOU ****ING NUTCASE. It's not that important!

[NBAGOAT]

Defense lol. As good as wade is doesn’t match pippen. Admittedly hard to gauge for a playoff run

[FireDavidKahn]

Can't win without a giant tree trunk that is the foundation for everything.

[LAmbruh]

No Pip?

No chip?

[Stanley Kobrick]

who is Chip?

[Axe]

who is Chip?
https://webstockreview.net/images/chipmunk-clipart-chip.gif

[3ball]

Little preview...Wade's Ortg was 89 and Drtg was 120. Hard to blame him though, he was clearly playing at like 60%..



What injury occurred between the ECF and Finals?

Because he was at prime Pippen level in the ECF, aka 20/5/5 on 48% (lebron averaged 22)..

So what injury occurred that caused him to go from Prime Pippen production to 60%?





Why don't we compare those guys respective numbers in the finals :lol



Pippen.... 20 less than #1 option (carried)
D Wade... 12 less than #1 option (record loss)

D Wade... held defensive assignment to reg season avg
Lebron.... the only player on his team in the 14', 15', 17' or 18' Finals to let his man average 3 pts above their reg season average (Kawhi +5.. Iggy +8.. KD +10.. KD +4).. aka he was the worst on his team defensively by far

[RRR3]

What injury occurred between the ECF and Finals?

Because he was at prime Pippen level in the ECF, aka 20/5/5 on 48% (lebron averaged 22)..

So what injury occurred that caused him to go from Prime Pippen production to 60%?



Pippen.... 20 less than #1 option (carried)
D Wade... 12 less than #1 option (record loss)

D Wade... held defensive assignment to reg season avg
Lebron.... the only player on his team in the 14', 15', 17' or 18' Finals to let his man average over 2 pts above their reg season average (Kawhi +5.. Iggy +8.. KD +10.. KD +4).. aka only he was bad defensively
This is literally a 5 year old's way of analyzing things. You are quite stupid.

[3ball]

This is literally a 5 year old's way of analyzing things. You are quite stupid.
It's just another fact to add to the pile of proof - no one fact is the end-all, but so many together is

and of course, no such facts exist for MJ - the horrific knocks on Lebron's game don't exist for MJ, aka losing as the favorite or being the only guy on his team letting his man go off (see previous stats)

And yes, I know the best 'bad' facts you have about MJ is that he lost 3 times in the 8 vs 1 matchup, aka the worst odds possible (the only way the goat is supposed to lose)

[RRR3]

wahhh wahhh wahh. You are a toddler. How have you not realized you keep getting banned because you keep spamming the board with this shit?

[red1]

It's just another fact to add to the pile of proof - no one fact is the end-all, but so many together is

and of course, no such facts exist for MJ - the horrific knocks on Lebron's game don't exist for MJ, aka losing as the favorite or being the only guy on his team letting his man go off (see previous stats)

And yes, I know the best 'bad' facts you have about MJ is that he lost 3 times in the 8 vs 1 matchup, aka the worst odds possible (the only way the goat is supposed to lose)

actually there is a huge knock.

something that you helped us uncover through your relentless bashing.

something worse than 3 for 9 or jason terry or whatever other agenda you were peddling to elevate mj and knock every other player.

players that you've knocked including shaq, magic, kareem, kobe, scottie, every bulls player ever, pretty much every player except mj and mo williams.

and that dirty secret.

that dirty secret...










...is the 55 wins without mike...






starring...



scottie "tree-trunk" pippen.




who was an all-star FYI. kyrie wasn't an allstar in 2016.

[red1]

huge knock


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FlusteredGrayAsianconstablebutterfly-size_restricted.gif

[3ball]

players that you've knocked including shaq, magic, kareem, kobe, scottie, every bulls player ever, pretty much every player except mj and mo williams.



I've only knocked them in relation to MJ, which they deserve





...is the 55 wins without Mike




Neither the 88' nor the 94' cast had a lot of talent, but the 94' cast needed 13 points LESS from the #1 option because they had built 3-peat teamwork

Specifically, the 88' Bulls needed 35 ppg from Jordan because teamwork was in the infancy stage, while the 94' Bulls only needed 22 ppg from Pippen because they had built 3-peat teamwork.. Again, both casts were weak except Oakley > Horace








who was an all-star FYI. kyrie wasn't an allstar in 2016.



Aw c'mon Lambruh.. :facepalm:

[red1]

thats great bro. good for you. I get it, you think the bulls were garbage.

IMO lebron is the GOAT at carrying teams. that goes for the cavs, heat, and now it looks like the lakers as well.

won back to back rings beating kd westbrook harden ibaka then he beat duncan kawhi ginobili parker then he beat a 73-win team (only player in NBA history to win a finals MVP defeating a 70+ win team).

4-time MVP.

perennial first team.

GOAT combination of athleticism and IQ.



undisputed top-5 and already the 2nd GOAT.

[ShawkFactory]

What injury occurred between the ECF and Finals?

Because he was at prime Pippen level in the ECF, aka 20/5/5 on 48% (lebron averaged 22)..

So what injury occurred that caused him to go from Prime Pippen production to 60%?



Pippen.... 20 less than #1 option (carried)
D Wade... 12 less than #1 option (record loss)

D Wade... held defensive assignment to reg season avg
Lebron.... the only player on his team in the 14', 15', 17' or 18' Finals to let his man average 3 pts above their reg season average (Kawhi +5.. Iggy +8.. KD +10.. KD +4).. aka he was the worst on his team defensively by far
Way to stew in jail for a week just to not respond to the actual point of the post :lol

[3ball]

Way to stew in jail for a week just to not respond to the actual point of the post :lol
Wow it must suck to lose arguments on the internet

[ShawkFactory]

Wow it must suck to lose arguments on the internet

How do you lose an argument when someone doesn’t address your point and continues to move the goalposts and grasp as straws?

You’re like Neil Patrick Harris from How I Met Your Mother trying to talk/lie his way out of a jam.

[AussieSteve]

Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


So why the excuses for Lebron?

In all seriousness, 93 pippen was much better than 14 wade. There shouldn't be much debate about this.

[3ball]

How do you lose an argument when someone doesn’t address your point and continues to move the goalposts and grasp as straws?

You’re like Neil Patrick Harris from How I Met Your Mother trying to talk/lie his way out of a jam.
I don't know what post you're referring to that I didn't respond to

Maybe that's why I got banned lol

you seem afraid to say what post it is, knowing I'll ether it

[3ball]

In all seriousness, 93 pippen was much better than 14 wade. There shouldn't be much debate about this.
why was pippen better?

defense?

certainly not offense

[ShawkFactory]

I don't know what post you're referring to that I didn't respond to

Maybe that's why I got banned lol

you seem afraid to say what post it is, knowing I'll ether it

It's the first one you responded to in this thread after your week off.

The one where you ignored how bad Wade was in the finals and mentioned the ECF and also how Lebron and Jordan performed respectively. Neither of those are remotely relevant to the point I made.

Also the one where you brought up Wade's defense in comparison to Pippen's by bringing up Danny Green's numbers.

[3ball]

The one where you ignored how bad Wade was in the finals and mentioned the ECF and also how Lebron and Jordan performed respectively. Neither of those are remotely relevant to the point I made.




Why is Wade's bad series an excuse in the MJ/Lebron debate?.. Are you saying MJ never won with Pippen having a bad series?.. Are you saying no one ever won with a teammate having a bad series??..






The one where you ignored how bad Wade was in the finals and mentioned the ECF and also how Lebron and Jordan performed respectively. Neither of those are remotely relevant to the point I made.




One bad series from a teammate simply isn't an excuse to lose a series, especially since:


1) Wade's poor play was partly lebron's fault, since the Spurs won largely by targeted the poor fit between Lebron/Wade - the Spurs were coming off one to help on the other's drives, thus forcing them to pass to each other for spot-ups (their weakness) - SB Nation wrote an article that included endless footage of this dynamic.

2) the Heat had a 3rd star, but his capacity to step up has been robbed by being reduced to a spot-up shooter role in Lebron-ball

3) Lebron-ball got solved - when an offense is solved, numerous teammates will have weaker stats.. It's lebron's fault for not having the best brand of ball 10 years into his career (coaches simply can't generate a good brand with his skillset, so the talk is always about getting more help, aka talent-based winning.. these are all facts)






The one where you ignored how bad Wade was in the finals and mentioned the ECF and also how Lebron and Jordan performed respectively. Neither of those are remotely relevant to the point I made.



why is there this idea that Lebron gets to be ball-dominant, and everyone must produce in a marginalized role - why can't Lebron play like Curry or Kawhi so he has better teams that wouldn't get solved and destroyed by the Spurs?.. MJ wouldn't get beat like the Heat did because MJ's Heat wouldn't play anything like Lebron's Heat

Do you realize that Lebron teaming up with Wade = MJ teaming up with Bird?... So how in the hell did Lebron not win every year?.. oh wait.. I know - he isn't as good as you say he is.






The one where you brought up Wade's defense in comparison to Pippen's by bringing up Danny Green's numbers.



Wade held Green to his normal averages, while Pippen did the same to Dumas, but usually lets guys go off - Pippen let his man exceed his regular season average much more than he held them under it.

So Pippen's individual defense is overrated, and did Pippen give the Bulls a better team defense then any of their ECF opponents during the 1st three-peat?.. How about the Finals? What was the Bulls' defensive rank in the 1st three-peat?.... It wasn't elite, so Pippen's team defense is overrated too

[ShawkFactory]

Why is Wade's bad series an excuse in the MJ/Lebron debate?.. Are you saying MJ never won with Pippen having a bad series?.. Are you saying no one ever won with a teammate having a bad series??..





One bad series from a teammate simply isn't an excuse to lose a series, especially since:


1) Wade's poor play was partly lebron's fault, since the Spurs won largely by targeted the poor fit between Lebron/Wade - the Spurs were coming off one to help on the other's drives, thus forcing them to pass to each other for spot-ups (their weakness) - SB Nation wrote an article that included endless footage of this dynamic.

2) the Heat had a 3rd star, but his capacity to step up has been robbed by being reduced to a spot-up shooter role in Lebron-ball

3) Lebron-ball got solved - when an offense is solved, numerous teammates will have weaker stats.. It's lebron's fault for not having the best brand of ball 10 years into his career (coaches simply can't generate a good brand with his skillset, so the talk is always about getting more help, aka talent-based winning.. these are all facts)




why is there this idea that Lebron gets to be ball-dominant, and everyone must produce in a marginalized role - why can't Lebron play like Curry or Kawhi so he has better teams that wouldn't get solved and destroyed by the Spurs?.. MJ wouldn't get beat like the Heat did because MJ's Heat wouldn't play anything like Lebron's Heat

Do you realize that Lebron teaming up with Wade = MJ teaming up with Bird?... So how in the hell did Lebron not win every year?.. oh wait.. I know - he isn't as good as you say he is.




Wade held Green to his normal averages, while Pippen did the same to Dumas, but usually lets guys go off - Pippen let his man exceed his regular season average much more than he held them under it.

So Pippen's individual defense is overrated, and did Pippen give the Bulls a better team defense then any of their ECF opponents during the 1st three-peat?.. How about the Finals? What was the Bulls' defensive rank in the 1st three-peat?.... It wasn't elite, so Pippen's team defense is overrated too
You're wasting your time. You made a bullshit comparison between 93 Pippen and 14 Wade with no context, and now you're scrambling to add some (of course while mixing in some rambling about the same old tired Lebron bullshit you've been spewing for years).

You try and make so many Jordan > Lebron-related claims, and when most of them are stupid you fall back on "but Jordan > Lebron! See, I win!". You can never lose with this tactic. And the best part is that no one even disagrees with this in the first place.

The defense one is still particularly funny, I'll give you that.

[AussieSteve]

why was pippen better?

defense?

certainly not offense

93 pippen was better on offense and defense than 14 wade.

Not trolling. Obviously prime wade > prime pippen. But 14 wade was not prime wade.

Against NY in the ECF and PHO in the Finals, pippen was a beast. He was really only behind MJ, Hakeem, DRob and Barkley at that point.

[3ball]

You're wasting your time. You made a bullshit comparison between 93 Pippen and 14 Wade with no context, and now you're scrambling to add some (of course while mixing in some rambling about the same old tired Lebron bullshit you've been spewing for years).

You try and make so many Jordan > Lebron-related claims, and when most of them are stupid you fall back on "but Jordan > Lebron! See, I win!". You can never lose with this tactic. And the best part is that no one even disagrees with this in the first place.

The defense one is still particularly funny, I'll give you that.
No one proves me wrong or refutes what I say

You guys just say the argument is stupid without refuting it

The facts are that 14' Wade produced more than than Pippen and the Heat had an untapped 3rd star even without Wade..

So there's just no excuse for Lebron not 3-peating if he wants to be compared to MJ - MJ averaged 41 ppg to 3-peat in 93', and executed the goat carry-job to get the 2nd three-peat in 98' - Lebron is nowhere near this, and hopefully the upcoming documentary will show this

[3ball]

93' pippen was better on offense and defense than 14 wade.

Not trolling. Obviously prime wade > prime pippen. But 14 wade was not prime wade.

Against NY in the ECF and PHO in the Finals, pippen was a beast. He was really only behind MJ, Hakeem, DRob and Barkley at that point


.
Pippen wasn't even all defense in 1993 and his playoff stats are worse than Wade's, as the OP shows - Wade scored much more on much better efficiency..

Pippen had a 0.083 ws/48 and you're comparing him to Hakeem and Drob.. do you simply didn't watch back then - you'd get laughed off this Earth in 1993 if you compared Pippen to Hakeem or Drob.. ridiculous



93 pippen was better on offense and defense than 14 wade.

Not trolling. Obviously prime wade > prime pippen. But 14 wade was not prime wade.

Against NY in the ECF and PHO in the Finals, pippen was a beast. He was really only behind MJ, Hakeem, DRob and Barkley at that point.




During the 1991 regular season, Reggie Miller said: "the Bulls are nothing without Michael Jordan" (quote and video here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BcoVUSypeS4&t=04m18s))...

During the 1993 Finals, Isiah told Bob Costas on national TV that the Bulls were a 1-man team.. This was after Magic said his peak Lakers would beat the bulls because the Lakers' cast would "demolish" the Bulls.. See the 2-minute exchange between Magic/Costas/Isiah here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s)

So again, calling these role players "really really good" is an exaggeration.. They were infact pretty ordinary for a cast and forced MJ to have the goat PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, and clutch.. They also forced him to have a good-shooting, off-ball game so he could fit these stats into a system that benefit everyone/maximized team ceiling, aka 6/6






14 wade was not prime wade.



Right - he'd been reduced to prime Pippen numbers

[ShawkFactory]

No one proves me wrong or refutes what I say

You guys just say the argument is stupid without refuting it

The facts are that 14' Wade produced more than than Pippen and the Heat had an untapped 3rd star even without Wade..

So there's just no excuse for Lebron not 3-peating if he wants to be compared to MJ - MJ averaged 41 ppg to 3-peat in 93', and executed the goat carry-job to get the 2nd three-peat in 98' - Lebron is nowhere near this, and hopefully the upcoming documentary will show this
Because your point is Jordan > Lebron. No one can prove this wrong...and no one desputes this.

Like just here you go and say 14 Wade >/= Pippen based on production in the RS.

But then one post later say that 14 Wade > any version of Pippen offensively. When the production does not support this.

So is it raw numbers, per 36 or context? Does production matter only in the RS, the playoffs, or specifically the finals? You flip-flop between all of these with each different argument you try to make. It's impossible to keep up..and you bank heavily on that.

[3ball]

Because your point is Jordan > Lebron. No one can prove this wrong...and no one desputes this.

Like just here you go and say 14 Wade >/= Pippen based on production in the RS.

But then one post later say that 14 Wade > any version of Pippen offensively. When the production does not support this.

So is it raw numbers, per 36 or context? Does production matter only in the RS, the playoffs, or specifically the finals? You flip-flop between all of these with each different argument you try to make. It's impossible to keep up..and you bank heavily on that.
One series might not always capture it, but Wade was simply a better scorer than Pippen

By far

Even as an older guy (and he did have a re-surgence post-Lebron where he did well in playoffs)

The Spurs had simply solved Lebron-ball and were specifically targeting Lebron/Wade's poor fit.. that's a big reason Wade played poorly.. SB Nation's article showed endless footage of the Spurs coming off lebron to help on Wade's drives and vice versa, thus forcing them to pass to each other for spot-ups (their weakness)






each different argument you try to make. It's impossible to keep up..




I try to relay the sentiment AT THE TIME, but sometimes it's better to.let the real pros do it:

During the 1991 regular season, Reggie Miller said: "the Bulls are nothing without Michael Jordan" (quote and video here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BcoVUSypeS4&t=04m18s))...

During the 1993 Finals, Isiah told Bob Costas on national TV that the Bulls were a 1-man team.. This was after Magic said his peak Lakers would beat the bulls because the Lakers' cast would "demolish" the Bulls.. See the 2-minute exchange between Magic/Costas/Isiah here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s)

So again, MJ's cast was pretty ordinary and forced MJ to have the goat PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, and clutch.. They also forced him to have a good-shooting, off-ball game so he could fit these stats into a system that benefit everyone/maximized team ceiling, aka 6/6

[ShawkFactory]

One series might not always capture it, but Wade was simply a better scorer than Pippen

By far

Even as an older guy (and he did have a re-surgence post-Lebron where he did well in playoffs)

The Spurs had simply solved Lebron-ball and were specifically targeting Lebron/Wade's poor fit.. that's a big reason Wade played poorly.. SB Nation's article showed endless footage of the Spurs coming off lebron to help on Wade's drives and vice versa, thus forcing them to pass to each other for spot-ups (their weakness)





I try to relay the sentiment AT THE TIME, but sometimes it's better to.let the real pros do it:

During the 1991 regular season, Reggie Miller said: "the Bulls are nothing without Michael Jordan" (quote and video here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BcoVUSypeS4&t=04m18s))...

During the 1993 Finals, Isiah told Bob Costas on national TV that the Bulls were a 1-man team.. This was after Magic said his peak Lakers would beat the bulls because the Lakers' cast would "demolish" the Bulls.. See the 2-minute exchange between Magic/Costas/Isiah here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s)

So again, MJ's cast was pretty ordinary and forced MJ to have the goat PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, and clutch.. They also forced him to have a good-shooting, off-ball game so he could fit these stats into a system that benefit everyone/maximized team ceiling, aka 6/6

Annnddd we're back to "Jordan=GOAT and >>Lebron". No one disagrees.

Not sure you really want to play the "well this commentator/player said ___ at this time" game. You can find people saying everything.

[aj1987]

Pippen wasn't even all defense in 1993

Lol, wut? You lying sack of shit. Pippen was All-Def First Team in '93 and All-NBA Third. Wade didn't make either team.

[HoopsNY]

2011.That series immediately eliminated LeBron from any contention of being the GOAT. Sorry. You just have to deal with it.

It's not just 2011, but 2007 as well.

[3ball]

Lol, wut? You lying sack of shit. Pippen was All-Def First Team in '93 and All-NBA Third. Wade didn't make either team.
I meant that he got no dpoy votes while MJ was 2nd

MJ got more dpoy votes than Pippen nearly every year, while carrying the goat scoring/clutch load and matching him in assists.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's not just 2011, but 2007 as well.
Retarded

[Axe]

It's not just 2011, but 2007 as well.
Don't. He's an lbj stan now.

[3ball]

Retarded
Getting locked down disqualifies a player from goat, and lebron's 22 on 36% certainly qualifies

Then he got locked down again in 08' (26 on 35% in 2nd Rd)

Then he got locked down AGAIN (11' Finals)

He doesn't compare to MJ

[nayte]

I meant that he got no dpoy votes while MJ was 2nd

MJ got more dpoy votes than Pippen nearly every year, while carrying the goat scoring/clutch load and matching him in assists.

I don’t care about u lot and the same tired debate but is this true .anyone can answer

[aj1987]

I meant that he got no dpoy votes while MJ was 2nd

MJ got more dpoy votes than Pippen nearly every year, while carrying the goat scoring/clutch load and matching him in assists.

No you didn't, you ****ing idiot. You said, and I quote, "Pippen wasn't even all defense in 1993".

He was First Team All-Def, shit for brains.

[red1]

3ball is disgustingly shameless.


he used to spam threads filling the front page with threads saying that lbj is a fake star that cant win.


and then when lbj won AGAIN and did exactly what 3ball was spamming saying he cant do - guess what?


3ball just started making a new set of excuses "buh buh kyrie."


this guy still cant admit that he is always wrong.


he should literally apologize for all of the spam and just admit that he's an idiot.


in fact what hes proven to me over our many fun discussions is that lebron has a case for GOAT, not that I say he is.


and thats why 3ball is so insecure, he feels he has to trash lbj to defend mj. thats why he tried to keep lbj out of top 20 then top 15 then top 10 rankings.


its why he tries to spam and convince us that pippen is the worst allstar of all-time - its all just to prop his mj delusions. :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball doing a disservice to Michael Jordan. With each and every post.

If you're gonna engage in debate, don't lie your ass off.

[SouBeachTalents]

The funniest/saddest thing about 3ball is that he's arguing something the majority of people already believe. Jordan would get at minimum 70-80% of the vote in any GOAT poll, yet here he is, day after week after month after half a decade, posting all day arguing something hardly anybody disputes. It'd be like if there were some deranged Gretzky fan on a hockey forum arguing 25,000 times he was the greatest ever. Shit is just completely unnecessary :lol

[red1]

he's started good discussions but he's always full of shit in his take. completely dishonest. we need him though. he shouldnt get himself banned.


Ive never seen someone talk about fake wins "that doesnt count" like thats some type of rational argument. :oldlol:


just because kyrie hurt his feelings he's saying the 2016 ring doesnt count as a finals MVP as the man.


meanwhile in reality it might be the GOAT ring considering lbj fulfilling his massive hype and bringing a ring to his hometown.


we dont need to go into the other optics, ie leading both teams in every stat, the only 3-1 comeback (GOAT shit), 73 win team, game 7 on the road etc etc.


my dear 3ball, you cant just say it doesnt count.


thats just not how it works my 3ballz my friend.


bend the knee and give it to me. top-5 GOAT of all-time, undisputed top 10 even if you're a hater.


just say it.

[SouBeachTalents]

he's started good discussions
He honestly doesn't though. He literally has 4 thread topics he makes

Jordan's the GOAT
LeBron's overrated
Pippen's a bum
LeBron had GOAT help

[red1]

The funniest/saddest thing about 3ball is that he's arguing something the majority of people already believe. Jordan would get at minimum 70-80% of the vote in any GOAT poll, yet here he is, day after week after month after half a decade, posting all day arguing something hardly anybody disputes. It'd be like if there were some deranged Gretzky fan on a hockey forum arguing 25,000 times he was the greatest ever. Shit is just completely unnecessary :lol
:oldlol:

he's such a bitch. I dont even know why he watches the NBA. he literally doesnt like or appreciate any player or any team he just trashes everyone. we dont even know what he likes other than his mj fantasies.


anyways he's fun because it was fun watching the haters lose all of their arguments. this guy was wrong about everything. :roll:


its fun trashing mike as well. very easy to make arguments against a granny-cheating sociopath.


he's the scumbag hvac salesman that scams old ladies into shitty contracts. thats who we're dealing with here.


lebron might be annoying in some ways but you can tell he's a nice guy, or at the very least not a granny-cheating sociopath.

[Wally450]

Just saw one of the trailers for the Bulls dynasty documentary on ESPN and MJ himself said "when you mention Michael, you have to mention Scottie" even MJ knows how much Scottie helped him.

[red1]

He honestly doesn't though. He literally has 4 thread topics he makes

Jordan's the GOAT
LeBron's overrated
Pippen's a bum
LeBron had GOAT help

3ball he says mj won with least the help ever reality bulls won 55-without mike

3ball trashes the 2013 spurs saying they were weak and old

reality duncan was still playing like an allstar even at 37. he destroyed bosh.

kawhi was already a threat as the 4th option and already a great defender.

four-time champions ginobili and parker two veteran allstars providing leadership. parker destroyed the western conference before he got locked down by lebron.

danny green setting the finals record for threes.

perfect mix of youth and veteran leadership. thats a GREAT team that came one shot and one game 7 from winning a championship. they won the next year with the same pieces.

more importantly... drumroll...


they are much better than every. single. team. that mike ever beat - go take a look. the '91 lakers '92 blazers '93 suns '96 sonics '97 and '98 jazz. spurs better than all of them were on the verge of going 6/6 in the finals if not for ray allen. holy shit lebron and the heat actually beat them. :eek:


the exact arguments that 3ball uses to diminish lbj and prop up mike actually work perfectly in reverse - mike is the one with the stacked team and the weak competition - thats reality :roll:



bulls won 55 without mike.
jazz are not NEARLY as good as the spurs contrary to what 3ball tries to say. its not even close.

[ShawkFactory]

I meant that he got no dpoy votes while MJ was 2nd

MJ got more dpoy votes than Pippen nearly every year, while carrying the goat scoring/clutch load and matching him in assists.
Bro..you were comparing Pippen and Wade and brought up how Pippen wasn’t all defense in 1993.

Now you’re scrambling to save face (again) by comparing his defense to Jordan, which is completely and utterly irrelevant.

[3ball]

Bro..you were comparing Pippen and Wade and brought up how Pippen wasn’t all defense in 1993.

Now you’re scrambling to save face (again) by comparing his defense to Jordan, which is completely and utterly irrelevant.
Wade's lack of all-defensive status didn't matter when he was averaging 25-27 ppg in 11' and 12'.. The Mavs were trampling the Heat, but you didn't blame Wade because he averaged 27 ppg

Only when he was reduced to prime Pippen stats in 13' and 14' did you start to whine about defense.. You simply aren't satisfied with a low efficiency, inconsistent player that frequently averages 15 ppg on 40%, and peaks at only about 20 ppg.... just like I complain about Pippen.... So you're only pissed at 13-14' Wade for being reduced to prime Pippen numbers.. Again, you didn't care about his defense when he was getting 27 against the Mavs

So 3ball has exposed you here.. you will remember this going forward.. :no:

93' Pippen had a 0.083 ws/48 in the playoffs, yet you compared him to Hakeem and Drob.. so you simply didn't watch back then - you'd get laughed off this Earth in 1993 if you compared Pippen to Hakeem or Drob.. ridiculous is an understatement

[red1]

3ball he says mj won with least the help ever reality bulls won 55-without mike

*3ball says mj won with the least help ever reality bulls won 55-games without mike - but that's somehow the worst help ever


tries to say mj won without any other all stars says pippen is a fake allstar reality crying about it wont change the fact that pippen WAS the greatest sidekick ever :oldlol:

[Vino24]

*3ball says mj won with the least help ever reality bulls won 55-games without mike - but that's somehow the worst help ever


tries to say mj won without any other all stars says pippen is a fake allstar reality crying about it wont change the fact that pippen WAS the greatest sidekick ever :oldlol:

MJ had nearly 4 teammates that averaged 20ppg in 1986. No help tho

[red1]

meanwhile lebron did technically win without any other allstars in 2016 - exactly what 3ball tries and fails to claim mj did.


so by his exact logic thats the GOAT. what a beautiful backfire. :roll:


I dont see any other all stars on the cavs but I see 3 on the warriors :roll:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_NBA_All-Star_Game

[Manny98]

Compare 15 Wade & 94 Pippen without their first option

One lead his team to 55 wins and almost took his team to the conference finals

The other failed to even make the playoffs

[ShawkFactory]

Wade's lack of all-defensive status didn't matter when he was averaging 25-27 ppg in 11' and 12'.. The Mavs were trampling the Heat, but you didn't blame Wade because he averaged 27 ppg

Only when he was reduced to prime Pippen stats in 13' and 14' did you start to whine about defense.. You simply aren't satisfied with a low efficiency, inconsistent player that frequently averages 15 ppg on 40%, and peaks at only about 20 ppg.... just like I complain about Pippen.... So you're only pissed at 13-14' Wade for being reduced to prime Pippen numbers.. Again, you didn't care about his defense when he was getting 27 against the Mavs

So 3ball has exposed you here.. you will remember this going forward.. :no:

93' Pippen had a 0.083 ws/48 in the playoffs, yet you compared him to Hakeem and Drob.. so you simply didn't watch back then - you'd get laughed off this Earth in 1993 if you compared Pippen to Hakeem or Drob.. ridiculous is an understatement
Wtf are you talking about :roll:

No, generally people don’t complain about a players defense when they’re averaging 27 a game.

But that literally has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

The defense between 93 Pippen and 14 Wade is a discussion when comparing the two though, because one of the players involved was elite on that end and the other was not.

[red1]

and 3ball is always talking about GOAT production he was obsessed with stats and scoring numbers


lebron lead both teams in every single stat, so thats literally the GOAT production. thats just a fact. no one has ever lead their own team let alone both teams in every single stat. :roll:


and he has larry bird ranked second lebron tied him for rings so 3ball literally has nothing now. literally every single argument has backfired.


"buh buh he's a loser" "buh buh ray allen" "buh buh kyrie"


"buh buh jordan would've beat the stacked warriors" meanwhile there is zero evidence for this whatsoever acting like the utah jazz are the 2017 2018 warriors :roll:


acting like malone stockton and hornacek are curry klay kd dray iggy :roll:

[3ball]

*3ball says mj won with the least help ever reality bulls won 55-games without mike - but that's somehow the worst help ever


tries to say mj won without any other all stars says pippen is a fake allstar reality crying about it wont change the fact that pippen WAS the greatest sidekick ever :oldlol:
How could the greatest sidekick ever have the greatest scoring deficit ever like Pippen did?

And it's not like Pippen was getting 10 assists and carrying the playmaking duties or defense because MJ equaled Pippen in assists and got more DPOY votes!!!

So Pippen was simply getting carried - more than any player ever (worst-ever scoring and clutch load)

Regarding 55 wins - neither the 88' nor the 94' cast had a lot of talent, but the 94' cast needed 13 points LESS from the #1 option because they had built 3-peat teamwork

Specifically, the 88' Bulls needed 35 ppg from Jordan because teamwork was in the infancy stage, while the 94' Bulls only needed 22 ppg from Pippen because they had built 3-peat teamwork.. Again, both casts were weak except Oakley > Horace

[Vino24]

How could the greatest sidekick ever have the greatest scoring deficit ever like Pippen did?

And it's not like Pippen was getting 10 assists and carrying the playmaking duties or defense because MJ equaled Pippen in assists and got more DPOY votes!!!

So Pippen was simply getting carried - more than any player ever (worst-ever scoring and clutch load)

Regarding 55 wins - neither the 88' nor the 94' cast had a lot of talent, but the 94' cast needed 13 points LESS from the #1 option because they had built 3-peat teamwork

Specifically, the 88' Bulls needed 35 ppg from Jordan because teamwork was in the infancy stage, while the 94' Bulls only needed 22 ppg from Pippen because they had built 3-peat teamwork.. Again, both casts were weak except Oakley > Horace

Bulls actually improved defensively with MJ’s absence in 94

[red1]

How could the greatest sidekick ever have the biggest scoring deficit ever

And it's not like Pippen was getting 10 assists and carrying the playmaking duties or defense because MJ equaled Pippen in assists and nearly always got more DPOY votes!!!

So Pippen was just getting carried - more than any player ever (worst-ever scoring and clutch load)

Regarding 55 wins - neither the 88' nor the 94' cast had a lot of talent, but the 94' cast needed 13 points LESS from the #1 option because they had built 3-peat teamwork

Specifically, the 88' Bulls needed 35 ppg from Jordan because teamwork was in the infancy stage, while the 94' Bulls only needed 22 ppg from Pippen because they had built 3-peat teamwork.. Again, both casts were weak except Oakley > Horace

because there are other components to basketball other than scoring. scottie doesnt have to be a great first option to be the greatest sidekick of all-time. kobe wasnt a sidekick he was a first option. so again, scottie is literally the greatest sidekick ever.


pippen is the protypical pointforward an excellent finisher passer and arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time alongside perhaps mike and kawhi. he was also durable, mike never played a single finals series with his sidekick injured or out of the series.


you finally conceded that scottie is better than mo williams this week. which was insane to argue in the first place. you said mo williams has more talent than pippen which was some serious ****ing fanboy shit. :oldlol:


Im proud of you kid keep up the great work.

https://media.tenor.com/images/a2bac4d6a1eea3bfb2f371323914360e/tenor.gif

[red1]

3ball complains about jordan's help all the time saying pippen was trash and a fake allstar. he doesnt realize by his own logic lebron is the GOAT. he literally has zero case to not rank him top 2 by his own logic.


one of his favorite narratives is that pippen was a fake allstar and that mj won with zero allstars


meanwhile GOAT james actually won with zero allstar support.


what? you telling me kevin "the second coming of shaq, 26 and 12" love and kyrie "mini-jordan" irving couldnt make the allstar team that year?


couldnt make the allstar team in the weak east?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_NBA_All-Star_Game

[Roundball_Rock]

Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


So why the excuses for Lebron?

Interesting info. What did these teams do respectively the following season? Keep in mind MJ retired too late to be properly replaced while LeBron was replaced by a two-time all-star.

[Smoke117]

It honestly amazes me that you ****ing idiots are still humoring this moron.