A different perspective on covid

[Nanners]

The way all of this covid hysteria has been framed is completely backward and illogical.

One of the sad facts of life is that people die every day, for all kinds of reasons. If you're lucky, you will live long enough to become old, and for old people the top 5 causes of death are - Heart Disease, Cancer, Stroke, Respiratory disease, Influenza. There are lots of things we could do to reduce deaths by these causes - We know that sugar intake is related to heart disease, banning sugar would "save lives". We know that people who live downwind of an oil refinery have increased cancer rates, shutting down all refineries would "save lives". We know that cigarettes cause respiratory disease, banning cigarettes would "save lives". We know that influenza is highly contagious, sheltering-in-place during flu season every year would "save lives". The reason we dont resort to these draconian measures that would "SAVE LIVES", is because until a few weeks ago we understood that all of the senior citizens whose lives would "saved" by banning sugar would just die to something else like Alzheimers, and we decided that having things like sugar and refineries and cigarettes and a functional economy is more important than maybe extending the lives of some old people. In reality, banning sugar wouldnt "save lives", it would prolong lives... and thats how we should be looking at covid.

They say that tons of people in Italy are being killed because of covid... but when you look at the numbers, the average age for those dead is ~80 (the life expectancy for Italy is 82 for comparison), and 99% of those who died had at least 1 pre-existing illness (50% of the dead had 3 or more illnesses). When an 80 year old life-long smoker with heart disease and emphysema gets killed by covid, are they really being killed by covid? or are they being killed because old age and poor decision making has finally caught up to them?

When you catch a cold, a strain of corona is responsible about 25% of the time... thats what coronavirus is, its a cold. There are currently over 30 known strains of coronavirus (we discover new ones each year), how many of the old and sick Italians that supposedly dying because of covid would have died from a different strain of corona next week? Does it really make sense to destroy our economy and hide indoors for weeks or months just so that we can prolong the lives of some people that are so old and sick that they die from catching a cold?

If truly "saving lives" is what we care about, hiding indoors is probably the opposite of what we should be doing. For people age 15-24, suicide is the second most common cause of death. Forcing young people with mental health issues and/or zero economic prospects to avoid human contact and hide indoors while society collapses around them will obviously result in an increase in suicide rates.

[coin24]

Yeah it's better to collapse the economy, people to lose their jobs / money / superannuation. Businesses to close, ban people from being outside etc cause of a damn cold:facepalm

And for all those idiots saying derp it's so the medical system doesn't get bombarded at once, maybe if the stupid media didn't have the green light to go full retard then people wouldn't be carrying on like total idiots.
Damn boomers lining up for an hour before the supermarket opens to buy all the toilet paper and paper towels :facepalm

[Nanners]

Its funny how we americans think about the value of life.

Last year, an estimated ~60,000-70,000 americans died because they were unable to afford the healthcare that they needed to survive. When someone (like Bernie) points out the fact that poor people are dying because they cant afford healthcare, the response from the political establishment is always "how would you pay for that?".

So let me get this straight... we cant afford to provide life-saving healthcare to people who are unable to afford it, but we can afford to wipe out the entire US economy in order to marginally prolong the lives of some sick senior citizens?

edit: btw these 60-70k people who are dying because they cant afford healthcare are not senior citizens, because all senior citizens in the US get full coverage by medicare (aka SOCIALIZED HEALTHCARE).

[diamenz]

coronavirus is un-american. catch something made in the usa.

[BarberSchool]

Nanners, have you seen any of the predictive graphs which show the solvency extensions to entitlement program funds, based on death models of the equivalent demographic group in the USA ?

[Nanners]

Nanners, have you seen any of the predictive graphs which show the solvency extensions to entitlement program funds, based on death models of the equivalent demographic group in the USA ?

i havent, got a link?

[kabar]

The way all of this covid hysteria has been framed is completely backward and illogical.

One of the sad facts of life is that people die every day, for all kinds of reasons. If you're lucky, you will live long enough to become old, and for old people the top 5 causes of death are - Heart Disease, Cancer, Stroke, Respiratory disease, Influenza. There are lots of things we could do to reduce deaths by these causes - We know that sugar intake is related to heart disease, banning sugar would "save lives". We know that people who live downwind of an oil refinery have increased cancer rates, shutting down all refineries would "save lives". We know that cigarettes cause respiratory disease, banning cigarettes would "save lives". We know that influenza is highly contagious, sheltering-in-place during flu season every year would "save lives". The reason we dont resort to these draconian measures that would "SAVE LIVES", is because until a few weeks ago we understood that all of the senior citizens whose lives would "saved" by banning sugar would just die to something else like Alzheimers, and we decided that having things like sugar and refineries and cigarettes and a functional economy is more important than maybe extending the lives of some old people. In reality, banning sugar wouldnt "save lives", it would prolong lives... and thats how we should be looking at covid.

They say that tons of people in Italy are being killed because of covid... but when you look at the numbers, the average age for those dead is ~80 (the life expectancy for Italy is 82 for comparison), and 99% of those who died had at least 1 pre-existing illness (50% of the dead had 3 or more illnesses). When an 80 year old life-long smoker with heart disease and emphysema gets killed by covid, are they really being killed by covid? or are they being killed because old age and poor decision making has finally caught up to them?

When you catch a cold, a strain of corona is responsible about 25% of the time... thats what coronavirus is, its a cold. There are currently over 30 known strains of coronavirus (we discover new ones each year), how many of the old and sick Italians that supposedly dying because of covid would have died from a different strain of corona next week? Does it really make sense to destroy our economy and hide indoors for weeks or months just so that we can prolong the lives of some people that are so old and sick that they die from catching a cold?

If truly "saving lives" is what we care about, hiding indoors is probably the opposite of what we should be doing. For people age 15-24, suicide is the second most common cause of death. Forcing young people with mental health issues and/or zero economic prospects to avoid human contact and hide indoors while society collapses around them will obviously result in an increase in suicide rates.

This is such a narrow perspective. It's not about saving lives, it's about how contagious this particular strain is and the need to preserve the limited resources of our healthcare system. We're not sheltering in place to save lives from a common cold, we're sheltering in place to prevent the overloading of our ER's and hospitals.

[Nanners]

This is such a narrow perspective. It's not about saving lives, it's about how contagious this particular strain is and the need to preserve the limited resources of our healthcare system. We're not sheltering in place to save lives from a common cold, we're sheltering in place to prevent the overloading of our ER's and hospitals.

lol... if this is not about saving lives, the response makes even less sense. What kind of idiotic nation would intentionally destroy its own economy simply in order to prevent temporarily overloading its ER's and hospitals? If lack of hospitals are really the concern, how about we just set up some temporary medical facilities, rather than putting 3/4 of americans out of work?

[tpols]

yup.... its ****ing retarded.

[John Connor]

lol... if this is not about saving lives, the response makes even less sense. What kind of idiotic nation would intentionally destroy its own economy simply in order to prevent temporarily overloading its ER's and hospitals? If lack of hospitals are really the concern, how about we just set up some temporary medical facilities, rather than putting 3/4 of americans out of work?

If you think that the response to COVID-19 is the primary reason the economy is falling apart, you would best be served by not partaking in economic discussions.

Simply put, it may be the pin that pricked the bubble, but the major underlying issue is the fact that everyone is up to their ears in debt. Our system is designed in such a way that if it stops churning for even a minute, it falls apart. That is not a healthy economy. The United States hasn't had a truly healthy economy since before my lifetime.

The nation's response to COVID-19 is "destroying the economy", though. Ha.

[kabar]

lol... if this is not about saving lives, the response makes even less sense. What kind of idiotic nation would intentionally destroy its own economy simply in order to prevent temporarily overloading its ER's and hospitals? If lack of hospitals are really the concern, how about we just set up some temporary medical facilities, rather than putting 3/4 of americans out of work?
It is about saving lives, not about saving lives of people with the common cold. Use your brain, there exists people with other medical conditions who couldn't get care if the hospitals were overloaded with corona patients. It's also not about space either, we would also have a shortage in medical supplies, plasma, etc.

[imdaman99]

I'm in a group chat with a few NY women. I sent them a picture of me with my mask on and I told them I'm playing tennis by myself against the wall yesterday. They ripped me to shreds, I was like OK tell us why you really mad.

Btches were just like taking shots at me, because they decided to be inside and quarantine themselves, in their late 20s while I was outside enjoying the day. Keep in mind, I stayed away from everyone and just played against the wall. That didn't matter to them. They were like it's because of people like you why this shit isn't over and done already. I'm like OK :lol I'm sorry but I still had work. And I am the only one with income in the apartment I pay for.

I was close to bouncing from that group chat, but I decided to be a grownup and ignore 99% of it. Is it smarter to stay home and become a hermit? Yeah fine. But it was 70 degrees yesterday and I was going crazy being inside. Mental health is a real thing. Plus I want to get back into shape, and I can't do it running by myself. I hate to jog and I can't do much other than pushups and crunches inside.

[rawimpact]

Someone from my academy forum posted something very similar. If we're putting these older individuals in quarantine - in a hospital or putting them in a respirator, we are completely exhausting our needs elsewhere. Sure resources should be put towards those 80+ but we should not be reserving beds for them.

They have lived their life. We need to do more for the younger generation...

[Nanners]

If you think that the response to COVID-19 is the primary reason the economy is falling apart, you would best be served by not partaking in economic discussions.

Simply put, it may be the pin that pricked the bubble, but the major underlying issue is the fact that everyone is up to their ears in debt. Our system is designed in such a way that if it stops churning for even a minute, it falls apart. That is not a healthy economy. The United States hasn't had a truly healthy economy since before my lifetime.

The nation's response to COVID-19 is "destroying the economy", though. Ha.

No I actually tend to agree with you.

Lately there have been a lot of warning signs that the economy is facing another major meltdown - incredibly low interest rates, the insanely low price of oil, the fed constantly injecting money into the banks 'repo' markets... one of the only ways that the covid hysteria makes sense is if TPTB are using it as a scapegoat.

[Overdrive]

Yeah it's better to collapse the economy, people to lose their jobs / money / superannuation. Businesses to close, ban people from being outside etc cause of a damn cold:facepalm

And for all those idiots saying derp it's so the medical system doesn't get bombarded at once, maybe if the stupid media didn't have the green light to go full retard then people wouldn't be carrying on like total idiots.
Damn boomers lining up for an hour before the supermarket opens to buy all the toilet paper and paper towels :facepalm

It's not a cold though. A big portion of cases leeds to hospitalisation. That by itself is enough to collaps the healthcare system. It's not only able to help covid cases by then, but also other cases. The ICU wouldn't be able to help people and a triage system would be put in place. Any country that didn't install severe measure immediately is on the brink of a collapsing healthcare system. You think the economy doesn't dive if there are 50.000 US citizens in demand of ICU treatment and millions who need hospitalisation?

[John Connor]

No I actually tend to agree with you.

Lately there have been a lot of warning signs that the economy is facing another major meltdown - incredibly low interest rates, the insanely low price of oil, the fed constantly injecting money into the banks 'repo' markets... one of the only ways that the covid hysteria makes sense is if TPTB are using it as a scapegoat.

Would not surprise me in the least.

[Overdrive]

Italian doctor in Cremona just said deathrate of the 1st quarter in Lombardy is up to 400% from last year. They need the army to dispose of corpses.

[~primetime~]

If we don't take it seriously we will be completely overwhelmed like China was...creating huge makeshift hospitals on the outskirts of every major city.

Italy is overwhelmed with this thing and it's being said one of the reasons is because their culture didnt take it seriously. They are now and they warned us to watch out because it ramps up very quickly.

I think that's what makes this virus so bad, not that it's deadly but that it looks to be extremely contagious. To the point that cities dealing with it are dealing with a shit ton of sick people very quickly all at once and they can't handle it.

[~primetime~]

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/coronavirus-cases-have-dropped-sharply-south-korea-whats-secret-its-success

Here is an article about South Korea who is having great success against the virus and did NOT shut down.

Summary: they had ample access to testing and were quickly able to quarantine lots of positive cases and those they came into contact with.

I think that is the #1 issue... having tests available

[TheMan]

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/coronavirus-cases-have-dropped-sharply-south-korea-whats-secret-its-success

Here is an article about South Korea who is having great success against the virus and did NOT shut down.

Summary: they had ample access to testing and were quickly able to quarantine lots of positive cases and those they came into contact with.

I think that is the #1 issue... having tests available
Yup, and that's where Trump administration fukked up, they had ample time to make enough tests available but Trump was to busy calling it a Democratic hoax.

[tpols]

Would not surprise me in the least.

thats actually brilliant.

everybody knows the long term bubble stuff is our doing, but this gives chance to save face.

if so? good shit...

[coin24]

No I actually tend to agree with you.

Lately there have been a lot of warning signs that the economy is facing another major meltdown - incredibly low interest rates, the insanely low price of oil, the fed constantly injecting money into the banks 'repo' markets... one of the only ways that the covid hysteria makes sense is if TPTB are using it as a scapegoat.

Agree with this 100%, this hysteria is looking like the excuse for the correction.. they wouldn't have given the media the green light light this otherwise.. it's the best tool to convince all the retards

[coin24]

Yup, and that's where Trump administration fukked up, they had ample time to make enough tests available but Trump was to busy calling it a Democratic hoax.

Is everything about trump for you seriously?

[TheMan]

Is everything about trump for you seriously?

No but did he or did he not call this a Democratic hoax? Is Italy fake news? This shit isn't your common, it's nowhere near as deadly as Ebola but it's apparently super contagious so it has the potential for a lot of people to get infected. Do you think China overreacted if this is just no worse than a common cold?

Also, Trump is a big boy, no need to get triggered when people criticize him.

[John Connor]

Despite me saying it wouldn't surprise me in the least as to Nanners' theory, I will say that we tend to overestimate the media's agenda, however.

Most everything they do can be boiled down to... what will give us the most ratings? What will play on people's emotions?

They do not care about how the societal impact, of the narratives they push, will burden everyone else. What does Occam's razor state? The simplest explanation tends to be the correct one? Well, the simplest explanation is that they want money and they have sold their collective souls in order to get it. How anyone can trust any television news, including a significant number of printed publications, at this point... is beyond me. Fox News, CBS, ABC, CNN... they're all proven liars that change their narratives as it becomes convenient for their ratings to do so.

I'm almost sure of the idea that the founding fathers of the United States did not envision an extremely emotionally manipulative multi corporation news mega conglomerate. I'm pretty sure they put freedom of the press together with the idea that governments suppressing or censoring the news is bad for a group of free people.

So while it would not surprise me if people in the shadows that call a lot of shots 'instructed' the media to push this narrative, I don't think that's correct.

I think it's is as simple as this... the news wants ratings, so they push the narrative that this is far more serious than it is. Couple that with... our society as a whole, government, businesses and citizens alike... is massively overburdened with debt.

Any drastically 'bad' news that would result in people being afraid to leave their homes for 1-2 months would inevitably crash the system. A system this deeply entrenched in debt must never stop, lest it fall apart.

[Nanners]

Agree with this 100%, this hysteria is looking like the excuse for the correction.. they wouldn't have given the media the green light light this otherwise.. it's the best tool to convince all the retards

there are a lot of benefits to the hysteria. if you know a serious economic collapse is coming, wouldnt it be nice to have a rule in place that would prevent gatherings of more than 10 people?

[John Connor]

there are a lot of benefits to the hysteria. if you know a serious economic collapse is coming, wouldnt it be nice to have a rule in place that would prevent gatherings of more than 10 people?

If that actually is true, do you think that some guy just ate a bat and here we are? Or was something more nefarious amiss?

[Nanners]

If that actually is true, do you think that some guy just ate a bat and here we are? Or was something more nefarious amiss?

i have no idea, but it doesnt really matter what animal it came from.

[Nanners]

heres a cool video on corona virus

event 201 pandemic exercise, hosted by bill gates on october 18th 2019 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoLw-Q8X174&

[John Connor]

i have no idea, but it doesnt really matter what animal it came from.

Well, the point being... was it man made? Because otherwise your contention is that this just conveniently worked out as an excuse to isolate people for bad actors to prep for economic collapse, no?

[Nanners]

Well, the point being... was it man made? Because otherwise your contention is that this just conveniently worked out as an excuse to isolate people for bad actors to prep for economic collapse, no?

well much like the flu, new strains of corona are discovered every cold/flu season, so you wouldnt entirely have to rely on dumb luck to announce the discovery of a new strain of bat corona with such seemingly convenient timing.

if the virus is man made, im surprised its not a little stronger. its going to be hard to keep people in their houses after they spend a couple weeks with no income while feeling perfectly healthy.

[coin24]

No but did he or did he not call this a Democratic hoax? Is Italy fake news? This shit isn't your common, it's nowhere near as deadly as Ebola but it's apparently super contagious so it has the potential for a lot of people to get infected. Do you think China overreacted if this is just no worse than a common cold?

Also, Trump is a big boy, no need to get triggered when people criticize him.


Been around since jan and we have 1000 cases, most with no symptoms and about 10 people 85+ in nursing homes died. Note that they also had other illnesses..
99% of tests here have come back negative and it's costing mega to run this. No symptoms why would you go to the hospital? Fu*king morons

So yeah, highly contagious? Really?


The powers that be laughing all the way to the bank as usual. While the idiots argue over left vs right they can't see the real issue is that everything is bought and paid for

[TheMan]

Been around since jan and we have 1000 cases, most with no symptoms and about 10 people 85+ in nursing homes died. Note that they also had other illnesses..
99% of tests here have come back negative and it's costing mega to run this. No symptoms why would you go to the hospital? Fu*king morons

So yeah, highly contagious? Really?


The powers that be laughing all the way to the bank as usual. While the idiots argue over left vs right they can't see the real issue is that everything is bought and paid for

I don't know, man...I mean you're basically saying that all world leaders are in cahoots. The Chinese, Russians, Americans, UK, Italy Spain etc... How do you keep something that huge a secret?

[Cleverness]

Thank you for your perspective.

We count # deaths caused by it, but we don't count # years taken off life from it.

[coin24]

I don't know, man...I mean you're basically saying that all world leaders are in cahoots. The Chinese, Russians, Americans, UK, Italy Spain etc... How do you keep something that huge a secret?


Well your average person is a total moron, we've got people lined up every morning at the supermarkets ready to buy all the toilet paper still:facepalm ask them why and they say cause everyone else is, some even come to blows over it.

If this an economic reform of course the governments are on board, get themselves some power back maybe.

There is no other way this shit would happen, oldies die from influenza and crap every year and no one bats an eye, now all of a sudden they're our prized possessions? Not likely.
Anyone who speaks out against it gets crucified by the media, they are 24/7 fear mongering.. they already have all the excuses ready, "what about the medical system overload", "Don't you care about oldies and sick people", "irresponsible " etc..

The figures just don't support their claims..

[FKAri]

there are a lot of benefits to the hysteria. if you know a serious economic collapse is coming, wouldnt it be nice to have a rule in place that would prevent gatherings of more than 10 people?

Do we need to be concerned about our liberties? Yes. Do we need to find a balance between liberty, health, and economy? Yes. The problem is even if this was an apocalyptic virus wiping out all of humanity I suspect you'd be saying the same thing: that this is overblown. Just like those who are saying this is worse than it really is and the govt is lieing to us. Running to the same extreme each time something happens. Instead of just being distrustful for its own sake provide some solid reasoning for it beyond, "it benefits the powers that be". A lot of things could benefit them and there are more insidious ways to go about than a virus.

[Jasper]

last time I looked the world had about 30% die from this VIrus...

So that means if you catch it , you have a 70% chance of survival...

Problem is guys like me that have had a life time of asthma and 10 x having pneumonia , have a better chance to die..

[FKAri]

last time I looked the world had about 30% die from this VIrus...

So that means if you catch it , you have a 70% chance of survival...

Problem is guys like me that have had a life time of asthma and 10 x having pneumonia , have a better chance to die..

The global numbers are increasingly unreliable. If you're not tested and you die: it doesn't count as a virus death. If you have the virus but have mild symptoms (which are a lot of people) you don't even count as a case. Some places like Russia are fudging the numbers by attributing them to other things while not testing many people. True death rate is probably between 0.5 and 2% and from what I understand is heavily decided by how well and how long your lungs can withstand the infection and how well it "settles" in your lungs.

[iamgine]

If truly "saving lives" is what we care about, hiding indoors is probably the opposite of what we should be doing. For people age 15-24, suicide is the second most common cause of death. Forcing young people with mental health issues and/or zero economic prospects to avoid human contact and hide indoors while society collapses around them will obviously result in an increase in suicide rates.
This one is interesting. Will the suicide rate go up because of the factors you provided? Or perhaps it will go down because they see that everyone else is suffering as them, and it's given them comfort.

[bladefd]

Well your average person is a total moron, we've got people lined up every morning at the supermarkets ready to buy all the toilet paper still:facepalm ask them why and they say cause everyone else is, some even come to blows over it.

On one spectrum are morons like those fighting over toilet paper and going bonkers in paranoia.

On the other side of the same spectrum are morons like you calling this a bad cold and trying to claim some great conspiracy is in the works with the world's governments all in on it. You are a fool just like those fools fighting over tissue rolls.

[bladefd]

Do we need to be concerned about our liberties? Yes. Do we need to find a balance between liberty, health, and economy? Yes. The problem is even if this was an apocalyptic virus wiping out all of humanity I suspect you'd be saying the same thing: that this is overblown. Just like those who are saying this is worse than it really is and the govt is lieing to us. Running to the same extreme each time something happens. Instead of just being distrustful for its own sake provide some solid reasoning for it beyond, "it benefits the powers that be". A lot of things could benefit them and there are more insidious ways to go about than a virus.

Nanners has gone off the deep end.. He is turning into just another Trumpeters recently.. Now everything is a conspiracy to him by the powers that be. I used to respect Nanners. I even defended him a few times when people like NumberSix were bashing him, but this conspiracy talk about coronavirus is just over the top.

I am distrustful myself of our government, I voted for Bernie and I know the establishment turds need to go.. But I don't believe they created this coronavirus hoax or whatever nonsense conspiracy it is this week.. It's crazy talk without evidence or something concrete to back it up.. Without evidence, that conspiracy argument holds no water.

[BarberSchool]

Building on what nanners said, since these universal lockdowns causexso much economic damage and reek of purposeful arrested development at a time of crisis.....one of two things would be more sensible at this point than what we are currently doing:

1. Massive testing with DOMESTICALLY PRODUCED 45min CEPHEID tests, and quarantine ONLY positive test cases with extreme prison sentences for violating your stay home order. Let everyone else live normal lives and let the economy thrive again much sooner.

2. Let it rip and let the elderly and respiratorily compromised croak.

I really don’t like the second option, but not because it’s insensitive, but because letting it rip, may leave 15-20% of the surviving productive public, with compromised lung function the rest of their lives.

[coin24]

On one spectrum are morons like those fighting over toilet paper and going bonkers in paranoia.

On the other side of the same spectrum are morons like you calling this a bad cold and trying to claim some great conspiracy is in the works with the world's governments all in on it. You are a fool just like those fools fighting over tissue rolls.

Is the middle the good little blind fools like yourself that just sit back and believe all the crap the media shovels down their throats?

You really believe this pathetic virus is worth bankrupting people, destroying the economy and young people's futures?? It's either one of two things, the virus is much worse than they're letting on, or tanking the economy is the goal..

[Overdrive]

Is the middle the good little blind fools like yourself that just sit back and believe all the crap the media shovels down their throats?

You really believe this pathetic virus is worth bankrupting people, destroying the economy and young people's futures?? It's either one of two things, the virus is much worse than they're letting on, or tanking the economy is the goal..

I don't know if you're genuinely ignorant or just trying to go against the grain. If you let the virus roam free you'll get the italian situation, which just kills the economy just as much as precautious measures. Italy has a deathrate of roughly 10%. You didn't even touch my post. The had to install a triage system in their hospitals and it still kills about 4% of people under 50 years old.

If the virus infects 10% of the population with a month and becomes "italian" in the US that would kill 4 Million people in that timespan. You think 4 million dead people aren't going to hit the economy?

I think it's interesting that conspiracy nutjobs always think they're smart, while they absorb the bullshit others spew - sourceless at that - on social media, just because they're contrarian takes. You're not smart. Use the data interpret it. That's the scientific way.

[Stephonit]

This "different perspective on covid" strikes me as a the kind of thing that someone who hasn't yet been burned by disaster would say. It's the same cavalier attitude behind those who don't care about climate change. Using the same line of reasoning one could even argue why anyone should care about war since WWI didn't kill as many as the 1918 flu epidemic. It's the thinking of a spoiled brat. What needs to be remembered is just because you haven't yet seen it that bad doesn't mean it couldn't be much worse. I am skeptical of the mass media, but the dangers posed by something of the nature of covid-19 have precedence and do not need media sensationalism to be taken very seriously. If you aren't going to be concerned by something with pandemic potential what would you be concerned by?

[Jasper]

The global numbers are increasingly unreliable. If you're not tested and you die: it doesn't count as a virus death. If you have the virus but have mild symptoms (which are a lot of people) you don't even count as a case. Some places like Russia are fudging the numbers by attributing them to other things while not testing many people. True death rate is probably between 0.5 and 2% and from what I understand is heavily decided by how well and how long your lungs can withstand the infection and how well it "settles" in your lungs.

Russia will cheat on all numbers cause they have created the virus...

Didn't you see the 2nd movie of Mission Impossible ??

[falc39]

I believe there is a real concern regarding our liberties in a situation like this. Anyone who knows a little of history understands how common it is for power to be abused. Actions that were once unprecedented can easily become the new normal. As Americans, we absolutely have to be vigilant to this and uphold the values our nation was founded upon.

At the same time, what we are seeing in other nations is that this is pointing to be a real threat and not "just the flu". It is being echoed by experts as well as the front line medical personnel. We can look at death rates but they don't tell the full story. There are many people in the hospitals right now, young and old, who are fighting for their lives. Some may not die, but they will be bedridden for weeks with our health care system on the verge of being overloaded. The infection rate is particularly nasty and a challenge as people can be asymptotic. Long incubation periods help mask how one got infected. The virus can live on surfaces and in the air longer than we initially thought. There are some people who don't care because chances are they could have mild to no symptoms. But would these people be more cautious if they knew who they were infecting and the damage it could cause? I know I would. Is there hysteria? Yes. I'm personally not sure if it is justified or not until we are able to look at this in hindsight. If things change I'm wrong, I will be one of the first to come out and say I overreacted. But this is a situation where I would rather be safe than sorry.

There is deservedly some real criticism for the Trump administration on their response to this. Some of it based on real significant decisions they made. I'm not a fan of Obama, but you have to give him credit because he had in place the framework and leadership in a pandemic response office with the sole purpose of being to plan and respond to a pandemic like this. Trump dismantled this team and the timing couldn't be worse. We had much more time to respond to this seeing what other nations were going through and yet we failed to have adequate testing leaving us in the dark. I could go on with some of the ridiculousness, like why the **** was Jared Kushner put in charge of the decision to declare an emergency?

Circling back to the first point... I think this nation really has to have a conversation of the government's proper role in a situation like this. We can see very effective responses from other nations that have handled this a lot more successfully. I can't help but be a little jealous seeing how coordinated some countries are and how collectively their citizens work together to do the right thing. There are very real dangers to accepting the use of draconian measures. How can we strike a balance and do it on our way without throwing away our values? In my opinion some good that has occurred. I liked seeing individual states act more aggressively on their own. California has done a great job in proactively advising people to stay home and shelter in place. But this doesn't work unless the American people do their part and also take it seriously. From my own observations and to those I talked to, we aren't. As citizens, by voluntarily not doing the prudent action and willing to change our habits, we may be paving the road to future draconian measures when our response here fails and a lot of damage is done. I guarantee some politicians will jump in to take advantage and "to never let a crisis go to waste".

[bladefd]

Is the middle the good little blind fools like yourself that just sit back and believe all the crap the media shovels down their throats?

You really believe this pathetic virus is worth bankrupting people, destroying the economy and young people's futures?? It's either one of two things, the virus is much worse than they're letting on, or tanking the economy is the goal..

Nobody wants bankruptcy or destroyed economy or destroyed futures. People are losing their jobs or hours getting slashed. This does not help anyone.

The virus is what it is. We are close to overwhelming the NY system. We are perhaps a week away from overwhelming it then it will pour out to bordering states. The number of infections is spreading quicker than the system can absorb it. Sure 80% of people who get it are fine but the remaining people are filling up hospitals. It is not only very costly to treat that many people but it is taking up so much space that they are considering building temporary hospitals to move people to and companies are working overtime to build more ventilators. Our system is not equipped to handle such a large number of influx of sick people. It is not a hoax or massive global conspiracy or whatever you want to call it..

It is better to slow the spread and give the system time to absorb patients and to give time to get new ventilators in place along with masks that are being pumped out. The only real way to slow the spread is to keep people indoors and give healthcare time..

[ZenMaster]

Damn do I hope that after this, people will be ready to not support globalism.

[FKAri]

message too long

Completely agreed. I'm surprised this kind of nuanced take on this situation is barely present on ISH and other places.

One thing I will say is that an authoritarian government has the ability to take unilateral, military like action so they will always have the potential to respond better than a democracy when it comes to handling major crisis. There's also the chance of FUBAR because the guy(s) at the top won't listen to subordinates and there's no checks and balances to stop their idiotic decision making if it were indeed idiotic.

[Hawker]

It's actually not true that Trump "dismantled" the pandemic response team.

[coin24]

It's hard to go by numbers when there are so many lies about what does and doesn't count as a corona case/death. Not to mention countries blatantly lying about numbers..

Looks like we are headed into full lockdown here

[imdaman99]

My boss told me there's nothing to worry about... yet. He had to add in the yet part. I don't live paycheck to paycheck... but I am also supporting my parents so that could become worrisome down the road.

[falc39]

It's actually not true that Trump "dismantled" the pandemic response team.

It was never completely dismantled. It's very debatable how much it was weakened. It seems to have been weakened significantly.

[Manny98]

400,000 people die every year from influenza yet no one seems to give a f*ck whilst everyone's is freaking out over this covid 19 which has killed 16000 so far which is nothing compared to Influenza

And young perfectly healthy people can end up in hospital and even die from the seasonal flu as well

[RRR3]

It’s not just extremely dangerous to old people it’s people with immune problems and respiratory issues as well. It’s also unusually contagious. Some of y’all are really lacking in empathy.

[highwhey]

It’s not just extremely dangerous to old people it’s people with immune problems and respiratory issues as well. It’s also unusually contagious. Some of y’all are really lacking in empathy.

Some people like to be contrarians or edgy. Especially on the internet.

This is a serious illness and everyone should be inside.

[Manny98]

It’s not just extremely dangerous to old people it’s people with immune problems and respiratory issues as well. It’s also unusually contagious. Some of y’all are really lacking in empathy.
Young people with immune problems die of influenza everyday...

800 people died everyday on average in the US during the 2018-2019 flu season and no one gave a single f*ck

People die, get over it

[Overdrive]

Young people with immune problems die of influenza everyday...

800 people died everyday on average in the US during the 2018-2019 flu season and no one gave a single f*ck

People die, get over it

You don't get it, just like alot of others guys. It's not about people dying from the flu over the span of a year. It's about millions of people that could be possibly hospitalized within weeks totally dismantling the healthcare system. Alot of non infected people would also have problems getting sufficient treatment. This is not about a momentary 20% upswing(projected) in deathrates, but to keep healthcare running.

Just take a look at Lombardy. It already collapsed there. Deathrate is at 9% of all positive tested people rn.

[Cleverness]

You don't get it, just like alot of others guys. It's not about people dying from the flu over the span of a year. It's about millions of people that could be possibly hospitalized within weeks totally dismantling the healthcare system. Alot of non infected people would also have problems getting sufficient treatment. This is not about a momentary 20% upswing(projected) in deathrates, but to keep healthcare running.

Just take a look at Lombardy. It already collapsed there. Deathrate is at 9% of all positive tested people rn.

True. The question has always been: is the cure worse than the disease?

Because we could save lives by doing lots of things every year, including shutting down the NBA and NFL seasons.. theoretically this would save lives, but is the cure worse than the disease? It's tough to measure

[Loco 50]

True. The question has always been: is the cure worse than the disease?

Because we could save lives by doing lots of things every year, including shutting down the NBA and NFL seasons.. theoretically this would save lives, but is the cure worse than the disease? It's tough to measure
You really going to regurgitate Fox's talking point word for word unabashedly? Here's a game. Was that Trump's genius take or was it Fox's first? Is there even a difference at this point?

Imagine thinking the "cure is worse than the disease," ripped straight from a news corporation's teet, is proper policy during a global pandemic as opposed to the preferences of any virologist or epidemiologist........what does a scientist know anyway?

Just have the automatons work through the illness that surrounds them. The numbers clearly say they'll be just fine in the end.

Clever....................

[Kblaze8855]

If truly "saving lives" is what we care about, hiding indoors is probably the opposite of what we should be doing. For people age 15-24, suicide is the second most common cause of death. Forcing young people with mental health issues and/or zero economic prospects to avoid human contact and hide indoors while society collapses around them will obviously result in an increase in suicide rates.


You know saving lives is to be talked about but not really done until now. I asked people here if they were more pro individual freedoms or public safety years ago and generally the answer was freedom....because it was about gun control.

The shooter in vegas shot hundreds of people in a matter of moments. How long did it take this virus to catch the orlando club shooters death toll from 5 minutes?

I was told in no uncertain terms that just because gun control would gradually get us to a place to save millions of lives(at a shooting death rate of 30K a year...forever...cutting it even in half would be millions eventually) society should go for freedom over safety because its nobody's job to protect others in the abstract over themselves specifically. And theres a case to be made both ways. I just find it odd how people both support individual freedom over increased safety....and shutting down society...because a disease that will kill less people even in a worst case than something as simple as bad eating habits.

If you could get sugar out of society im sure it saves more lives than sheltering in place but as you said that really isnt the goal.

[Loco 50]

You know saving lives is to be talked about but not really done until now. I asked people here if they were more pro individual freedoms or public safety years ago and generally the answer was freedom....because it was about gun control.

The shooter in vegas shot hundreds of people in a matter of moments. How long did it take this virus to catch the orlando club shooters death toll from 5 minutes?

I was told in no uncertain terms that just because gun control would gradually get us to a place to save millions of lives(at a shooting death rate of 30K a year...forever...cutting it even in half would be millions eventually) society should go for freedom over safety because its nobody's job to protect others in the abstract over themselves specifically. And theres a case to be made both ways. I just find it odd how people both support individual freedom over increased safety....and shutting down society...because a disease that will kill less people even in a worst case than something as simple as bad eating habits.

If you could get sugar out of society im sure it saves more lives than sheltering in place but as you said that really isnt the goal.
100 kids on a playground. 1 of them is yours. 2 or 3 have to die to continue normalcy. You playing the game?

To your last thought, we both know every one of us is going to choose a long drawn out, almost "unnoticeable" death that takes 40 plus years to develop over an acute, more grisly, observable one. There should be no surprise there. The second one is much more fearsome/dramatic. The first, everyone can feign ignorance and claim surprise at the sudden loss.

[Kblaze8855]

100 kids on a playground. 1 of them is yours. 2 or 3 have to die to continue normalcy. You playing the game?

To your last thought, we both know every one of us is going to choose a long drawn out, almost "unnoticeable" death that takes 40 plus years to develop over an acute, more grisly, observable one. There should be no surprise there. The second one is much more fearsome/dramatic. The first, everyone can feign ignorance and claim surprise at the sudden loss.


Of course. But the same applies even with sudden death situations. Try passing a law requiring nascar style roll cages, helmets, and cross body 5 strap seatbelts. You would save hundreds of thousands from brutal deaths but it would annoy society too much to do it.

We just choose to join team safety on this one instead of team freedom even if the loss of life is similar.

[Cleverness]

You really going to regurgitate Fox's talking point word for word unabashedly? Here's a game. Was that Trump's genius take or was it Fox's first? Is there even a difference at this point?

Imagine thinking the "cure is worse than the disease," ripped straight from a news corporation's teet, is proper policy during a global pandemic as opposed to the preferences of any virologist or epidemiologist........what does a scientist know anyway?

Just have the automatons work through the illness that surrounds them. The numbers clearly say they'll be just fine in the end.

Clever....................

The podcast I listen to asked this question when the panic first began. It's an important question to ask whenever any major regulation is proposed. And you didn't even try to answer it, but that's cool.

[Cleverness]

Of course. But the same applies even with sudden death situations. Try passing a law requiring nascar style roll cages, helmets, and cross body 5 strap seatbelts. You would save hundreds of thousands from brutal deaths but it would annoy society too much to do it.

We just choose to join team safety on this one instead of team freedom even if the loss of life is similar.

Yep. I've been saying it too. Pass a law that bans all gatherings of over 100 people during flu season, including NBA/NFL/MLB.. this would save a lot of lives.

[Hawker]

You really going to regurgitate Fox's talking point word for word unabashedly? Here's a game. Was that Trump's genius take or was it Fox's first? Is there even a difference at this point?

Imagine thinking the "cure is worse than the disease," ripped straight from a news corporation's teet, is proper policy during a global pandemic as opposed to the preferences of any virologist or epidemiologist........what does a scientist know anyway?

Just have the automatons work through the illness that surrounds them. The numbers clearly say they'll be just fine in the end.

Clever....................

Nobody on ISH watched Fox dude. Stop it with the straw man.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/comment-page-23/#comments
Is a Stanford Med professor good enough for you?

[iamgine]

Of course. But the same applies even with sudden death situations. Try passing a law requiring nascar style roll cages, helmets, and cross body 5 strap seatbelts. You would save hundreds of thousands from brutal deaths but it would annoy society too much to do it.

We just choose to join team safety on this one instead of team freedom even if the loss of life is similar.
Cars are already very safe with strict regulations, airbags and advanced warning nowadays. Whether that is joining team safety or freedom is our own subjective feeling.

[tpols]

Cars are already very safe with strict regulations, airbags and advanced warning nowadays. Whether that is joining team safety or freedom is our own subjective feeling.

and yet 3 million people are injured and 40,000 people die in car accidents every year in the USA.

At a certain point there's only so much you can do. There will always be casualties.

[FKAri]

Cars are already very safe with strict regulations, airbags and advanced warning nowadays. Whether that is joining team safety or freedom is our own subjective feeling.

It's all about status quo. We rarely examine whether things are safe or not or if our freedom is under threat or not unless there is a change.


and yet 3 million people are injured and 40,000 people die in car accidents every year in the USA.

At a certain point there's only so much you can do. There will always be casualties.

Maybe there's something they know that they aren't telling us that has them spooked about covid and they won't tell us! Boris was shrugging it off and then did a 180 into lockdowns!!! Why???? So we should panic even more!!!! We need martial law NOW!

[iamgine]

and yet 3 million people are injured and 40,000 people die in car accidents every year in the USA.

Even with that number some will say it's quite low and some will say it's a lot. There's no team safety.

[tpols]

Maybe there's something they know that they aren't telling us that has them spooked about covid and they won't tell us! Boris was shrugging it off and then did a 180 into lockdowns!!! Why???? So we should panic even more!!!! We need martial law NOW!


you would think this is like airborne HIV or polio or something...

if that was the case, id understand the reaction.

[ArbitraryWater]

Agreed.

Weare run by idiots and the majority of the public is intolerant sheep that cannot think for themselves, moral superiors (I care! "Stay the fck home dummie!" Cause you got nothing better to do huh..) or fearmongers(on themselves)/scared

[Nanners]

The podcast I listen to asked this question when the panic first began. It's an important question to ask whenever any major regulation is proposed. And you didn't even try to answer it, but that's cool.

If only more people had been asking your question after 9/11... maybe we wouldnt have lost trillions of dollars and ended countless lives fighting pointless wars, or maybe we wouldnt have given away our constitutional right to privacy.

[Loco 50]

The podcast I listen to asked this question when the panic first began. It's an important question to ask whenever any major regulation is proposed. And you didn't even try to answer it, but that's cool.
Interesting what questions are fair play and what aren't in your mind. I have questions about what has actually happened while you have questions about what could happen. Your mentality is pretty frivolous to me.

I'd like to know why Trump didn't jump on things early and contain/quarantine the sick people when he had clear models in China, South Korea and Italy to learn from?

I'd like to know why we didn't immediately test everyone that was in contact with those sick people?

I'd like to know whose dumbass idea it was that we wait until people become symptomatic to test them when pertinent info from China was already out there saying that there were many asymptomatic carriers?

I'd like to know why he didn't recognize the need for increased ppe for his healthcare providers when we saw what was happening in Italy and China?

I'd like to know why instead of relying on expert knowledge he keeps trying to base decisions on his own fears?

I'd like to know where he thinks we're supposed to treat the heart attack/stroke/appendicitis type acute cases when our hospitals are overwhelmed with sick people that can't breathe that were told to go back to work?

I'd like to know why he jumped the gun on telling the public about two medications that can cause heart block with unsupervised use before it's even proven that they work?

Many, many important questions...

[Loco 50]

Nobody on ISH watched Fox dude. Stop it with the straw man.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/comment-page-23/#comments
Is a Stanford Med professor good enough for you?
Sure man, and your base doesn't rely on Evangelical support to get shit done.....

Congrats on finding an opinion piece that's a week old (prehistoric in viral replication time-frame) from a fella that adds the qualifiers "may" 17 times, "could" 5 times, "might" 5 times among many other hedging your bets cya type language in which he simply states we don't know enough so we shouldn't act.............Strong, forceful language.

Not acting is what allowed the outbreak to reach this point in the first place. You found an epidemiologist afraid to act on his knowledge though. Congrats.

There is much to learn from everything that has happened in other countries that are a week to months ahead of us in this outbreak. We should have had an advantage, and yet, somehow we're caught with our pants down.

But that's certainly not the fault of the guy who put the head of the DHS and the director of the CDC in their current positions to handle moments such as this.

Nah

[Loco 50]

Agreed.

Weare run by idiots and the majority of the public is intolerant sheep that cannot think for themselves, moral superiors (I care! "Stay the fck home dummie!" Cause you got nothing better to do huh..) or fearmongers(on themselves)/scared
You've nary room to cast stones from such a glass house.

[Loco 50]

If only more people had been asking your question after 9/11... maybe we wouldnt have lost trillions of dollars and ended countless lives fighting pointless wars, or maybe we wouldnt have given away our constitutional right to privacy.
If only...........Many of us saw the over-reaction coming the moment our heads cleared from the shock of it all. It's natural to want a swift knee-jerk violent reaction and yet, this was cool, calculated manipulation over decades to make evil people richer and to whittle away at all the poor peon's rights that they claim to care so much about all while the peon's lapped it up as necessary.

Just don't add any safety regulations on mah guns....SLIPPERY SLOPE

[Overdrive]

Agreed.

Weare run by idiots and the majority of the public is intolerant sheep that cannot think for themselves, moral superiors (I care! "Stay the fck home dummie!" Cause you got nothing better to do huh..) or fearmongers(on themselves)/scared

I cringe anytime I read that stance. Like it's superindividual, while it's just the same BS rehashed from some freethinkers on social media - often combined with the word sheep.

The best way to be unaffected by opinions is to study cold data and draw your own conclusions.

[hateraid]

100 kids on a playground. 1 of them is yours. 2 or 3 have to die to continue normalcy. You playing the game?

To your last thought, we both know every one of us is going to choose a long drawn out, almost "unnoticeable" death that takes 40 plus years to develop over an acute, more grisly, observable one. There should be no surprise there. The second one is much more fearsome/dramatic. The first, everyone can feign ignorance and claim surprise at the sudden loss.

If we're comparing it to the disease than statistically it's 1 in 1000. Mortality is 1 in 15000.
Just is you want to accurately paint a picture

[ArbitraryWater]

I cringe anytime I read that stance. Like it's superindividual, while it's just the same BS rehashed from some freethinkers on social media - often combined with the word sheep.

The best way to be unaffected by opinions is to study cold data and draw your own conclusions.

i didnt re-hash anything.

but look at the extreme measures people go to, from one day to the other, without coming in the slightest touch/experience with what apparently is going on, and they will yap to you like their life is in instant danger because thats what the news said this morning.

sheep is just the only word i could think of there.

like they thought the measure they took yesterday was good and enough, but look, there was a new meeting between politicians with a more extreme measure, that means yesterday's measure sucks now and could only be not enough and wrong.