Duncan got held in check by the Detroit defense in 2005

[ArbitraryWater]

10/27 in game 7 to top it off, and it was really 10/28, look at him getting stripped clean by Sheed here as he drove into his chest:

https://i.gyazo.com/599c41f80212b70a73a326badd3e343f.gif


Also had 3 turnovers in that 4th quarter.

Other players would get more shit for that for sure.

Do you think he deserved that FMVP?

[SouBeachTalents]

His Game 7 honestly wasn't even that much better than Kobe's, yet he received legitimately 1/100th of the criticism :lol

In regards to FMVP, while I think Manu does have a legitimate case, I would've still given it to Duncan. Imo any advantage Manu had offensively, where he still scored less than Duncan, was definitely offset by Duncan's impact defensively and on the boards, where Manu can't even begin to compare. Plus Manu was DREADFUL in the road games, absolutely awful

[SouBeachTalents]

OP who you think had a better case for FMVP, Manu this series or Pau in 2010?

[ShawkFactory]

Well they certainly made life tough on him. But we’re talking about one of the best interior defenses of all time. No shame in shooting inefficiently really. He still got busy on the boards and his defense was instrumental in holding Detroit to 74 points.

Wasn’t his best game but given the circumstances it turned out fine.

[ArbitraryWater]

OP who you think had a better case for FMVP, Manu this series or Pau in 2010?

It's funny that the series' are kinda similar as far as the top 2 are concerned.

Kobe and Timmy struggling similarly, making their foul shots in game 7, working on the boards.. Meanwhile both Gino and Pau were much better at home than away.

Duncan was slightly more efficient, but Kobe scored more points, which isn't necessarily a positive at such low clip, but these were low scoring series' so you take the points.

Gino slashed an ATG defense apart and simoultaneously opened up the court for his teammates, Gasol did his thing scoring pretty similarly and what Gino had in playmaking he created via offensive boards. And I'm just now seing they actually assisted similarly, wow. Obviously Gino did more ballhandling and creation work, but for the assists to still end up even is pretty big.

Its a tough one.

But I'd probably give both to Gino/Pau.

[Whoah10115]

Kobe definitely has it in 2010, not really close. Personally, I take Manu in 2005 AND 2014. But maybe I'm underplaying Duncan in 2005.

Unfortunately, this is a thread about LeBron vs Duncan.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe definitely has it in 2010, not really close. Personally, I take Manu in 2005 AND 2014. But maybe I'm underplaying Duncan in 2005.

Unfortunately, this is a thread about LeBron vs Duncan.


why?

[Smoke117]

Sheed was one of the best one on one post defenders in the league and a very good rim/team defender, too. That he never made an all defensive team is a travesty. That they were putting Prince on the all defensive team over him when his impact wasn't even close to Sheed's impact is an even bigger one.

[ArbitraryWater]

Sheed was one of the best one on one post defenders in the league and a very good rim/team defender, too. That he never made an all defensive team is a travesty. That they were putting Prince on the all defensive team over him when his impact wasn't even close to Sheed's impact is an even bigger one.

he swiped Duncan clean and didn't even complain lol

[Dbrog]

I'm curious, can you guys explain why in game 6 (which would have closed Detroit out), Duncan went for 21/15 on 57% and still lost?

[Whoah10115]

why?

Because he was that good. It was pretty ugly basketball, but even when not at his best or playing up to his standard, he was the difference.

Pau is a hall-of-famer overall, and was great, but Manu different level.

[ShawkFactory]

It's funny that the series' are kinda similar as far as the top 2 are concerned.

Kobe and Timmy struggling similarly, making their foul shots in game 7, working on the boards.. Meanwhile both Gino and Pau were much better at home than away.

Duncan was slightly more efficient, but Kobe scored more points, which isn't necessarily a positive at such low clip, but these were low scoring series' so you take the points.

Gino slashed an ATG defense apart and simoultaneously opened up the court for his teammates, Gasol did his thing scoring pretty similarly and what Gino had in playmaking he created via offensive boards. And I'm just now seing they actually assisted similarly, wow. Obviously Gino did more ballhandling and creation work, but for the assists to still end up even is pretty big.

Its a tough one.

But I'd probably give both to Gino/Pau.
Game 7 was live tweeted last night so I watched most of the second half. Duncan was absolutely the focus of the defense.

Manu probably had the best series of his life but Duncan was the guy who eventually wore them down.

[tpols]

who wouldve thought a GOAT defense headlined by its frontcourt would limit a star...?

woahh

[tpols]

It's funny that the series' are kinda similar as far as the top 2 are concerned.

Kobe and Timmy struggling similarly, making their foul shots in game 7, working on the boards.. Meanwhile both Gino and Pau were much better at home than away.

Duncan was slightly more efficient, but Kobe scored more points, which isn't necessarily a positive at such low clip, but these were low scoring series' so you take the points.

Gino slashed an ATG defense apart and simoultaneously opened up the court for his teammates, Gasol did his thing scoring pretty similarly and what Gino had in playmaking he created via offensive boards. And I'm just now seing they actually assisted similarly, wow. Obviously Gino did more ballhandling and creation work, but for the assists to still end up even is pretty big.

Its a tough one.

But I'd probably give both to Gino/Pau.


'10 Kobe had a higher ORTG, and lower DRTG than '05 Duncan. This is when he took on guarding rondo after he dismantled cleveland.

He outscored Pau 29 ppg to 19 ppg with better defense.

Tim Duncan only outscored Manu 20 to 19. Ginobili was also widely recognized as a great guard defender, he wasnt tony parker.

The fact that clowns argued for Pau, and not Manu is pretty insane. Were comparing a 30 ppg scorer to a 20 ppg, and acting like its closer than 20 to 19.

[3ball]

Who can't average 16 on 39% for 3 games while teammates avoid an 0-3 deficit like lebron in the 13' Finals?

Many guys would've beaten the Spurs much easier with 3 HOF teammates like Lebron had.. People simply forget how bad he was because Ray's shot saved him, but his 23 on 43% is the worst I can think of through 6 games for Lebron, Kobe or MJ.. except for 00' Kobe

[tpols]

Who can't average 16 on 39% for 3 games while teammates avoid an 0-3 deficit like lebron in the 13' Finals?

Many guys would've beaten the Spurs much easier with 3 HOF teammates like Lebron had.. People simply forget how bad he was because Ray's shot saved him, but his 23 on 43% is the worst I can think of through 6 games for Lebron, Kobe or MJ.. except for 00' Kobe

It is pretty incredible.

The Spurs were +1600 to win the title in 2013 going into the season. Heat, +225.

8x the odds in their favor. Super Saiyan favorites.

and they lost by a literal hair.

[ShawkFactory]

It is pretty incredible.

The Spurs were +1600 to win the title in 2013 going into the season. Heat, +225.

8x the odds in their favor. Super Saiyan favorites.

and they lost by a literal hair.

Spurs were +200 in the actual series. They lost 2 games in 3 rounds in the Western Playoffs.

[tpols]

Spurs were +200 in the actual series. They lost 2 games in 3 rounds in the Western Playoffs.

Nothing changed personel wise on either side. Everybody played on both sides.

SAS simply overachieves, due to their well known high level brand of basketball.

[SouBeachTalents]

Who can't average 16 on 39% for 3 games while teammates avoid an 0-3 deficit like lebron in the 13' Finals?

Many guys would've beaten the Spurs much easier with 3 HOF teammates like Lebron had.. People simply forget how bad he was because Ray's shot saved him, but his 23 on 43% is the worst I can think of through 6 games for Lebron, Kobe or MJ.. except for 00' Kobe
:roll: I bet Kobe has a handful of series either extremely comparable or even worse than 23 ppg on 43%

[3ball]

:roll: I bet Kobe has a handful of series either extremely comparable or even worse than 23 ppg on 43%
Finals?

Or is it only Lebron with that kind of Finals thru 6 games

Keep in mind that his jumper AND poor fit with Wade was famously exploited and well-documented

[SouBeachTalents]

Finals?

Or is it only Lebron with that kind of Finals thru 6 games

Keep in mind that his jumper AND poor fit with Wade was famously exploited and well-documented
'00
'04

It's not like '01 & '08 were substantially better. You rip LeBron for being at 23 on 43% for one incomplete Finals series when Kobe's CAREER Finals averages were 25 on 41% :lol

So every time you want to rip LeBron's 2013 Finals, just remember, you're essentially shitting on Kobe's entire Finals body of work

[3ball]

'00
'04

It's not like '01 & '08 were substantially better. You rip LeBron for being at 23 on 43% for one incomplete Finals series when Kobe's CAREER Finals averages were 25 on 41% :lol

So every time you want to rip LeBron's 2013 Finals, just remember, you're essentially shitting on Kobe's entire Finals body of work
04' was 5 games not 6, and I conceded 00'

Also Kobe's career averages include his 00' and 04' series and higher team ceilings/brand of ball, whereas Lebron's 13' Finals isn't even his 3rd worst Finals and he employs a style that favors stat accumulation over winning

[1987_Lakers]

I remember watching that postseason and commentators always mentioned how Duncan was playing with an injured ankle. Am I crazy?

[SouBeachTalents]

04' was 5 games not 6, and I conceded 00'

Also Kobe's career averages include his 00' and 04' series and higher team ceilings/brand of ball, whereas Lebron's 13' Finals isn't even his 3rd worst Finals and he employs a style that favors stat accumulation over winning
So because he lost in 5 games instead, while playing worse, as the substantial favorite, that's supposed to favor your argument :oldlol:

You're just not going to win an argument that favors Kobe as a better Finals performer than LeBron. But it'll be amusing to see the mental gymnastics as you try :lol

[ShawkFactory]

Nothing changed personel wise on either side. Everybody played on both sides.

SAS simply overachieves, due to their well known high level brand of basketball.

Seriously. People tend to underrate the 12-14 Spurs because of Lebron and the various agendas related to him.

The 2012 spurs went 50-16 despite Manu missing half the year. I remember when the were up 2-0 on OKC in the western finals (idk if you recall but they’d gone 8-0 in the first 2 rounds) people were talking about how they might be one of the greatest teams of all time. Then KD and harden stomped on them somehow.

2013 lost 2 games in the West and were a shot away from winning the title obviously.

Duncan and them were starting to go downhill in 2014 but then you have Kawhi turning into a superstar.

They were the type of team that would have thrived in every era because there was no weakness. Great ball movement, great guard play, great interior play, great shooting, etc.

Just great basketball.

[3ball]

Seriously. People tend to underrate the 12-14 Spurs because of Lebron and the various agendas related to him.

The 2012 spurs went 50-16 despite Manu missing half the year. I remember when the were up 2-0 on OKC in the western finals (idk if you recall but they’d gone 8-0 in the first 2 rounds) people were talking about how they might be one of the greatest teams of all time. Then KD stomped on them somehow.

2013 lost 2 games in the West and were a shot away from winning the title obviously.

Duncan and them were starting to go downhill in 2014 but then you have Kawhi turning into a superstar.

They were the type of team that would have thrived in every era because there was no weakness. Great ball movement, great guard play, great interior play, great shooting, etc.

Just great basketball.
Why couldn't lebron "stomp" them?

Sounds like KD did something lebron never did - dominate a truly great team without needing 7 games/luck - just dominate them

[SouBeachTalents]

Seriously. People tend to underrate the 12-14 Spurs because of Lebron and the various agendas related to him.

The 2012 spurs went 50-16 despite Manu missing half the year. I remember when the were up 2-0 on OKC in the western finals (idk if you recall but they’d gone 8-0 in the first 2 rounds) people were talking about how they might be one of the greatest teams of all time. Then KD and harden stomped on them somehow.

2013 lost 2 games in the West and were a shot away from winning the title obviously.

Duncan and them were starting to go downhill in 2014 but then you have Kawhi turning into a superstar.

They were the type of team that would have thrived in every era because there was no weakness. Great ball movement, great guard play, great interior play, great shooting, etc.

Just great basketball.
They had been on a 20 game winning streak heading into the WCF, which is why I always find it ridiculous when people try to write off that Thunder team like they were fraudulent pretenders even after knocking off Dirk's defending champ Mavs, Kobe's Lakers, and the white hot Spurs, going 12-3 throughout the West

2015 is one that gets lost in the shuffle. Iirc they were the 2 seed on the final night of the regular season, lost their last game and dropped all the way to the 6 seed, having to face the Clippers in the first round, eventually succumbing the CP3 GW in Game 7. If they had been able to maintain that seeding, or played anybody else in the first round, honestly, who the hell knows how that postseason turns out for them

[ShawkFactory]

Why couldn't lebron "stomp" them?

Sounds like KD did something lebron never did - dominate a truly great team without needing 7 games/luck - just dominate them
Well Lebron then beat KD in 5 in the series immediately proceeding the one you’re discussing soo...

But if I’m honest, with the combo of KD, Harden, Russ (even though he had a bad series shooting), and Ibaka? They were just too athletic.

It’s crazy thinking back that OKC literally drafted 3 MVPs and another 3X first-team defender in 3 years.

I know Golden State gets props for drafting well but that doesn’t hold a candle.

[3ball]

They had been on a 20 game winning streak heading into the WCF, which is why I always find it ridiculous when people try to write off that Thunder team like they were fraudulent pretenders even after knocking off Dirk's defending champ Mavs, Kobe's Lakers, and the white hot Spurs, going 12-3 throughout the West

2015 is one that gets lost in the shuffle. Iirc they were the 2 seed on the final night of the regular season, lost their last game and dropped all the way to the 6 seed, having to face the Clippers in the first round, eventually succumbing the CP3 GW in Game 7. If they had been able to maintain that seeding, or played anybody else in the first round, honestly, who the hell knows how that postseason turns out for them
KD beat the Spurs easily while Lebron never could because KD is a low turnover, great-shooter, while Lebron's jumper gets specifically targeted and he's a turnover machine (the exact style that the Spurs crush)

[r0drig0lac]

who wouldve thought a GOAT defense headlined by its frontcourt would limit a star...?

woahh

this

[Gougou]

Tbh without the Robert Horry clutch shots, Piston will go back to back champs.

I still think Duncan was MVP of the series, Mano was there just because of that game 7 performance, Duncan impact in the low post against the Wallace brothers and his defense was too much.

[warriorfan]

Op got held in check by a short Turkish kid in 2017.

[Horatio33]

I remember watching that postseason and commentators always mentioned how Duncan was playing with an injured ankle. Am I crazy?

Yeah he sprained it in the WCSF against Seattle then reinjured it in the WCF against the Suns.

Duncan in that series was defended by Rasheed and Ben Wallace. The Spurs other starting big man was Nazr Mohammed, then had Rasho Nesterovic and Robert Horry on the bench.

[ImKobe]

He wasn't great scoring-wise but he absolutely dominated the glass that series and neuralized Sheed & Wallace. Wallace was known for his elite rebounding ability but only averaged 10 boards in 40 mpg, Sheed was a solid rebounder as well but averaged less than 6 for that series while Duncan averaged 14. Series would have been over in 5-6 games had Duncan been healthy, he had some terrible FT shooting games and missed a FT to win Game 5 in the 4th but luckily Horry saved the day.

As bad as his Game 7 was shooting-wise, he had Wallace & Sheed both in foul trouble and Sheed ended up having 1 rebound in 27 minutes. I thought Manu could have won FMVP for his Game 7 play and how inefficient Tim was as a scorer, but maybe I've underrated the impact he had on the defensive side & on the glass. You look at the difference in turnovers and assists and you'd think the Pistons should have easily won that series, but that Spurs' defense was something else, unlike the 04 Lakers, who couldn't stop the P&R at all and made Billups look like Steph Curry.

[ArbitraryWater]

He wasn't great scoring-wise but he absolutely dominated the glass that series and neuralized Sheed & Wallace. Wallace was known for his elite rebounding ability but only averaged 10 boards in 40 mpg, Sheed was a solid rebounder as well but averaged less than 6 for that series while Duncan averaged 14. Series would have been over in 5-6 games had Duncan been healthy, he had some terrible FT shooting games and missed a FT to win Game 5 in the 4th but luckily Horry saved the day.

As bad as his Game 7 was shooting-wise, he had Wallace & Sheed both in foul trouble and Sheed ended up having 1 rebound in 27 minutes. I thought Manu could have won FMVP for his Game 7 play and how inefficient Tim was as a scorer, but maybe I've underrated the impact he had on the defensive side & on the glass. You look at the difference in turnovers and assists and you'd think the Pistons should have easily won that series, but that Spurs' defense was something else, unlike the 04 Lakers, who couldn't stop the P&R at all and made Billups look like Steph Curry.

ankle is no excuse to be shootibng FT's poorly.

And Duncan was fit to go.

Lets not act like he was hobbled out there.

[ImKobe]

ankle is no excuse to be shootibng FT's poorly.

And Duncan was fit to go.

Lets not act like he was hobbled out there.

How do you know? Have you ever played ball on a bad ankle and re-injured it multiple times? At his size? It's going to be an issue, especially with him playing 40 mpg and going up against the two toughest guys there is with 80+ games into the season. I don't think the ankle affected his FT shooting as much as it did the rest of his scoring game, but he still looked as good as ever on the defensive side. I'm not trying to use the injury as an excuse & it doesn't really matter since he helped his team win the championship and won the FMVP as a result. I think the Spurs would have won the series in less than 7 games had Duncan not injured his ankle, but it doesn't really matter in the long run. I've made the Manu FMVP argument as much as anyone on this site but I have to give Tim his props too.

[iamgine]

There's a lot of these. It's game 7 of the finals after all. Even James Harden would defend like regular season James Posey.

Game 7 finals wins:

Hakeem 10/25
Kobe 6/24
Lebron 9/24
Jordan 5/19
Bird 6/18

[ArbitraryWater]

How do you know? Have you ever played ball on a bad ankle and re-injured it multiple times? At his size? It's going to be an issue, especially with him playing 40 mpg and going up against the two toughest guys there is with 80+ games into the season. I don't think the ankle affected his FT shooting as much as it did the rest of his scoring game, but he still looked as good as ever on the defensive side. I'm not trying to use the injury as an excuse & it doesn't really matter since he helped his team win the championship and won the FMVP as a result. I think the Spurs would have won the series in less than 7 games had Duncan not injured his ankle, but it doesn't really matter in the long run. I've made the Manu FMVP argument as much as anyone on this site but I have to give Tim his props too.


I know because I'm watching it. He's not in pain.

Of course you will have to give Tim his props, so Kobe can get his props in shitty finals also.

[ImKobe]

I know because I'm watching it. He's not in pain.

Of course you will have to give Tim his props, so Kobe can get his props in shitty finals also.

Oh. So as long as he's not wincing in pain and falling down on every possession, he's healthy? Kobe was getting his knee drained mid-2010 Playoffs and played with a broken index finger in his shooting hand. And I love how Kobe's Finals are "shitty" when he's putting up 32/6/7 or 29/8/4 in wins. You think the ankle injury wasn't serious in 2000, that forced him to basically miss two games and return early from an injury that would normally sideline a player for weeks? You think he wasn't playing with a bum shoulder in '04 that he re-injured in the WCF?

[SouBeachTalents]

There's a lot of these. It's game 7 of the finals after all. Even James Harden would defend like regular season James Posey.

Game 7 finals wins:

Hakeem 10/25
Kobe 6/24
Lebron 9/24
Jordan 5/19
Bird 6/18
Jordan never played a Game 7 in the Finals

[Whoah10115]

Who can't average 16 on 39% for 3 games while teammates avoid an 0-3 deficit like lebron in the 13' Finals?

Many guys would've beaten the Spurs much easier with 3 HOF teammates like Lebron had.. People simply forget how bad he was because Ray's shot saved him, but his 23 on 43% is the worst I can think of through 6 games for Lebron, Kobe or MJ.. except for 00' Kobe

This is a thread about Tim Duncan vs the Pistons.

Be thoughtful. Talk about that and don't bring the other guy into it.

[SouBeachTalents]

This is a thread about Tim Duncan vs the Pistons.

Be thoughtful. Talk about that and don't bring the other guy into it.
Well, he's banned for now. But after 6 years and 25,000 posts about the same 2 players, I don't see him heeding your advice

[ArbitraryWater]

Well, he's banned for now. But after 6 years and 25,000 posts about the same 2 players, I don't see him heeding your advice

I think he just put the banned there

[Dbrog]

He wasn't great scoring-wise but he absolutely dominated the glass that series and neuralized Sheed & Wallace. Wallace was known for his elite rebounding ability but only averaged 10 boards in 40 mpg, Sheed was a solid rebounder as well but averaged less than 6 for that series while Duncan averaged 14. Series would have been over in 5-6 games had Duncan been healthy, he had some terrible FT shooting games and missed a FT to win Game 5 in the 4th but luckily Horry saved the day.

As bad as his Game 7 was shooting-wise, he had Wallace & Sheed both in foul trouble and Sheed ended up having 1 rebound in 27 minutes. I thought Manu could have won FMVP for his Game 7 play and how inefficient Tim was as a scorer, but maybe I've underrated the impact he had on the defensive side & on the glass. You look at the difference in turnovers and assists and you'd think the Pistons should have easily won that series, but that Spurs' defense was something else, unlike the 04 Lakers, who couldn't stop the P&R at all and made Billups look like Steph Curry.

Well said. Also just to mention since I haven't seen anyone talk about it, it's not a coincidence that the Spurs won every game that series where Tim shot over 20 FGs. The only one they won where he didn't need to do that was already a blowout. Lost to most people on this site, it actually matters with pace as well as opening up the floor for teammates when they pounded the ball into Duncan (regardless if he made or missed the shot). It's essentially the "curry effect" where just by him being on the floor and getting aggressive touches, it completely changes how you play defense (and allows the spurs to setup their defense on the other side and limit transition). This is also the reason why in game 6 when he had a great game on paper with 21/15 on 57%, they still lost...because he only shot 14 times that game.

[ArbitraryWater]

Well said. Also just to mention since I haven't seen anyone talk about it, it's not a coincidence that the Spurs won every game that series where Tim shot over 20 FGs. The only one they won where he didn't need to do that was already a blowout. Lost to most people on this site, it actually matters with pace as well as opening up the floor for teammates when they pounded the ball into Duncan (regardless if he made or missed the shot). It's essentially the "curry effect" where just by him being on the floor and getting aggressive touches, it completely changes how you play defense (and allows the spurs to setup their defense on the other side and limit transition). This is also the reason why in game 6 when he had a great game on paper with 21/15 on 57%, they still lost...because he only shot 14 times that game.


So it would have been more beneficial to the team had he taken 6 more shots and made 1 of them?

[Dbrog]

So it would have been more beneficial to the team had he taken 6 more shots and made 1 of them?

Correct because it ultimately would have led to easier shots for teammates and harder shots for the Pistons.

[rmt]

Duncan was THE focus of Pistons' defense:

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"They just kept coming to me and kept giving me the opportunities and I got one to fall in and two to fall in and things started happening," said Duncan, who made 10-of-27 shots. "Then I was able to draw some double-teams and got some guys some open shots."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

"Rasheed was strapped all game," Brown said. "If you don't have your big people with the ability to play aggressively on Duncan, you've got no shot."

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

Game 7 Personal Fouls
Rasheed 5
Ben 5
McDyess 4
Duncan 2

Series Personal Fouls
Rasheed 30
Ben 19
McDyess 22
Duncan 16

[ArbitraryWater]

Duncan was THE focus of Pistons' defense:

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"They just kept coming to me and kept giving me the opportunities and I got one to fall in and two to fall in and things started happening," said Duncan, who made 10-of-27 shots. "Then I was able to draw some double-teams and got some guys some open shots."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

"Rasheed was strapped all game," Brown said. "If you don't have your big people with the ability to play aggressively on Duncan, you've got no shot."

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

Game 7 Personal Fouls
Rasheed 5
Ben 5
McDyess 4
Duncan 2

Series Personal Fouls
Rasheed 30
Ben 19
McDyess 22
Duncan 16

We know all that, that's Duncan's saving grace regarding the series.

Otherwise it'd be an obvious Ginobili series.

Regardless, you better believe from the way they checked Manu and their reactions to him, they feared that man.

[rmt]

We know all that, that's Duncan's saving grace regarding the series.

Otherwise it'd be an obvious Ginobili series.

Regardless, you better believe from the way they checked Manu and their reactions to him, they feared that man.

Disagree - Manu kinda disappeared in the middle of the series: games 3, 4, 5: 7 pts, 12 pts, 15 pts.

[ArbitraryWater]

Disagree - Manu kinda disappeared in the middle of the series: games 3, 4, 5: 7 pts, 12 pts, 15 pts.

So did he only score 2ppg less if he disappeared in the middle of the series and Duncan never disappeared?

Ginobili scored 13 less points than Duncan this series, on 44 less shots....

fourty-four.

Being the center of attention and defense is absolutely Duncan's saving grace.

[Horatio33]

Isn't that the point? Duncan was the centre of the offence and he drew doubles to kick out to teammates because he was the focal point. They weren't double teaming Parker, Ginobili, Bowen etc because they weren't centre of the team's attack.

[ArbitraryWater]

Isn't that the point? Duncan was the centre of the offence and he drew doubles to kick out to teammates because he was the focal point. They weren't double teaming Parker, Ginobili, Bowen etc because they weren't centre of the team's attack.

Haha, Manu definitely drew much attention, soft doubles and a lot of help on drives which also opened up the game for his teammates.

You must not be familiar with Manu's play. He drew help all the time.


Question, where does it end?

How much can being the center of the offense cover up for?

14 more pts on 44 more shots, apparently...

when would it not be enough anymore?

[rmt]

Haha, Manu definitely drew much attention, soft doubles and a lot of help on drives which also opened up the game for his teammates.

You must not be familiar with Manu's play. He drew help all the time.


Question, where does it end?

How much can being the center of the offense cover up for?

14 more pts on 44 more shots, apparently...

when would it not be enough anymore?

I don't recall Manu being the one double-teamed - I recall him mostly being single-covered by Tayshaun (who had only 15 personal fouls for the entire series). So if we acknowledge that Duncan put the Pistons' front line in foul trouble (evidenced by their high number of PFs) and was drawing double teams, how could Manu have been doubled TOO - would that not leave Parker, Bowen and other big being guarded by only 1 player?

BTW, I think Pop made a strategic mistake putting Bowen on Hamilton (their RS leading scorer) instead of Chauncey. IMO, better to have Parker (faster and more agile) chase Hamilton over screens and put Bowen on Chauncey (who wouldn't have been able to back down Bowen in the post) - would have been an easier series.

[DoctorP]

Lebron got held in check by JJ Barea.
:lol